Interview with Lyman T. Johnson, May 6, 1976

Dwayne Cox: This is an oral history interview with Lyman T. Johnson, a long time public school teacher and administrator in Louisville, and active in the Civil Rights movement in Louisville. Today is the sixth of May, 1976. We're at Mister Johnson's home at 2340 West Walnut. I'm Dwayne Cox from the Louisville Archives.

DC: We have a rather restricted topic today, a topic that really hasn't been as much a part of the written historical record as it should have been. I'm going to read some citations here, from the board minutes of the University of Louisville, and also from the Courier Journal. I think, I don't want to try to set Mister Johnson up and lead him on, but I think they illustrate the point 1:00that he wants to make about the integration of the University of Louisville in the early 1950s.

DC: On the 18 of May in 1949, the Board of Trustees at the university argued that they were a private college, and because of the case of Berea College versus Commonwealth of Kentucky, the case of Lyman Johnson versus the University of Kentucky might not apply to the U of L. U of L being, in the opinion of the board, a private school.DC: The Board of Trustees, the 14 of September, '49, 2:00they seemed to be at least considering the idea that Mister Johnson may have a case against them. They're not ready to admit that they're going to integrate the university, at this point, though. Then, on the 19 of April, '50, 1950, the board voted to admit Negroes for the fall of 1950 and to close the Louisville Municipal College, which had been a separate, Black branch of U of L. To close Louisville Municipal College at the end of the 1950-1951 academic year.

DC: The next day, the Courier Journal quoted the president of the University of Louisville, President Taylor as saying, "There was no question that the trustees would admit Negroes. The only question was how it could be worked out as a practical matter, such as whether we had sufficient facilities for expanding classes."

DC: This introduction may not be exactly legitimate. I realize that I'm sort of leading you in to what you want to say, but we have talked about this before, and I had an idea of what you wanted to talk about. So, this is why i gave this prefatory material.

Lyman T. Johnson: Is this [inaudible 00:03:33]?

DC: No, it's not.

DC: It's Mister Johnson's contention, as I've said before, that really, a lot of the negotiations in this really didn't become a part of the written record. The written record might indicate that the case really never involved push coming to shove, whereas, he says that it did. He says that there was approximately a five week period, before the board decision on the 19 of April, '50, there was approximately a five week period, when Mister Johnson and others, had to 4:00threaten the university with a lawsuit, before they would admit Negroes, or before they would integrate the university.

DC: It's this five week period that we're interested in. After my windy introduction, I think I'll just turn it over to Mister Johnson, and let him recollect about the events of this period leading up to the board decision to integrate the university, and his contention that the board's claim to have done 5:00this on a strictly voluntary basis is not necessarily the whole truth.

DC: Have I characterized it accurately?

LTJ: You have, in my opinion, very, very well. You stated it very well. As a matter of fact, it was diplomatic on our part, to be quiet about their claim that they had done this voluntarily. That is, in April 1950, that they had volunteered to do this.

LTJ: We took the attitude, I passed the word along personally that it would be 6:00better for the relationships between students and professors on the campus, to let it appear that it was done voluntarily, than to have the relationship cloudy with the idea that this is the result of long hassling over legal technicalities. Finally, the university would lose, and the professors would be very much on pins, as to how to be loyal to the university that had lost, and would they take reprisal on students that came in their classes?

LTJ: Now, first of all-

DC: The Black students, you mean?LTJ: Yeah, take reprisal on Black students.

LTJ: Now, first of all, this has been a, has to be put in context with the system, when we were over behind what I refer to as the iron curtain of racial segregation. We Blacks were shut out from all the good things. We got the leavings, and we got the short end of the stick in everything.

LTJ: So, you young people, that is, people of today can hardly understand what difficulties Blacks had to operate under in those days. Now, in those days, if a student wanted to do serious graduate study, he'd have to go to some Northern university, because the Southern universities would not accept Negroes.

LTJ: There were very few first-rate universities in the South that were for Negroes. Fisk University was doing a fairly good job. Atlanta University was doing a fairly good job. But outside of those two schools, which were limited, 8:00there were no acceptable graduate schools, universities in the South for Negroes.

LTJ: So, any of us could go to Northern Universities. In my case, the University of Michigan. Many of the teachers here in Louisville, who were my colleagues, had gone to the University of Indiana, which was reasonably close. Many of us had gone to Columbia and Yale. One of my finest friends was a graduate of Yale University, Master at English, and finally a law degree from Harvard; Edward Harris, one of the most brilliant fellows the town has produced.

LTJ: We could all go to Northern Universities, but there was a university right here in the city. So now, when the Board of Trustees, or President, or anybody else out there starts talking about this thing, they didn't understand that I 9:00was in agitation for this.

LTJ: A group of us, and I was called a young radical in those days, back in the '40s. But going back as far as 1942, I remember taking a committee of 16 people down to the main library, 4th and York Streets, to ask them why couldn't we at least come in to the main library, and get a book, even if we had to go into a separate room to read the book?

LTJ: They told us that Negroes couldn't come in there. Even if somebody would smuggle a book to us, we couldn't take it down in the Negro janitor's quarters to read the book. We had no business in the library. That was 1942.

LTJ: Our group was referred to as Lyman Johnson and his gang. Well, in that group, I had a bunch of [inaudible 00:10:13] there were two PhDs. There were three with Master's Degrees. They were not riff raff, and they were as cultured and refined as any white son-of-a-guns you could present, to be their equal or associates, but they were not permitted to go into the main library at 4th and York Street. Great big sign up over the door saying, "Free Public Library," but we, as Negroes, were not supposed, I guess, to be free, or a part of the public.

LTJ: All right. We were wondering how could we attack the universities. The two main universities we wanted to center our attack on were the University of Kentucky and the University of Louisville. This is back in '42, so don't think 11:00this thing just started in '49. That's just hogwash, and you could tell them I said so.

LTJ: 1942, we tried to get some youngster, see, I was considering myself an old man then. Some youngster who wanted to just finish college, finish high school and go into college, use him as a test case [inaudible 00:11:35]. It was difficult to find any youngster who had never enough to attempt to go into one of these classes, into such a hostile environment.

LTJ: So then, we had to shift our emphasis, then, to see if we could get some older person who would go back and graduate; someone who had already finished college. So, the theory there was to get somebody who had already made As, Bs, at least Cs as a bottom mark, averaging at least a B at some Northern 12:00university, or Northern college. Then, the onus would be on the University of Kentucky, or the University of Louisville, if a guy who makes As and Bs at, say, Purdue, comes here and flunks out.

DC: Yeah.

LTJ: It would. The proof would have to be on the part of the latter school, to find that these students had been graduated from first-rate universities, who couldn't keep up with the stuff they have here, in these two hick-town schools. I call them that because you could take the library at the school I went to, University of Michigan, you could take the library and smother the University of Kentucky. Just the library part, not all that facility they have up there.

LTJ: All right. In about '46 or '47, we finally found one young lady who was willing to go to the University of Louisville, and she had her name, that is, her name was carried on the front page of the Louisville Defender, the weekly Negro paper, mainly Negro paper. She called me up the next day and she says, "Oh, my God. I can't stand that kind of publicity, so you can't use my name. I'm a schoolteacher, and I'm too modest to have all that published. I didn't know it entailed all that. So, just count me out. No, I quit." I said, "We need you." She said, "No, no."

LTJ: Well, that threw us off for another two years. Finally, we got down to '48, 1948, and we were still trying to find somebody to use as a guinea pig, for 14:00either University of Kentucky or the University of Louisville. I was getting older all the time, but I was looking for some youngster. Some of my own supporters, some of my own group called my hand on it. They said, "Mister Johnson, you are just a little unfair to these younger people. You are trying to find some youngster who's got nerve enough to go into these classrooms, in such a hostile environment. They figure logically that it would gum up their whole educational process, to go in and get flunked out."

DC: Yeah.

LTJ: "Why don't you go?" I said, "Oh, well, you see, I'm old. I have my education, enough to feel satisfied."

DC: You had a Master's Degree then?LTJ: I've had a Master's Degree since 1931. I got it by going back to summer schools, and refresher courses, and additional courses. I have another year of graduate work beyond a master. In University of Michigan and University of Wisconsin together, I have at least two years of graduate study, a little over that. I'm not interested in going back to school. This is for young people.

LTJ: They said, "Yes, but that's where you are unfair to them. Now, you could go back and take some of your refresher courses during the summer session. Why don't you go?" Then I tried to figure a second excuse. The second excuse was that, "Well, I don't think it's quite proper, for me to be a leader of the gang, raising money for a person to go to school, and turn out that I am the person 16:00for whom I'm fighting."

LTJ: They said, "We'll take the responsibility. We'll say we chose you. You've demonstrated that you've tried not to be the one." I said, "Oh, then, if you call my bluff, I will go." I said, "I wouldn't ask one of these youngsters to go any place I wouldn't go. If I'm successful, I would want them then to come on behind me and take advantage of it."

LTJ: It was decided in '47, '48 that I would be the one. Now we've got to decide which school to go to; University of Kentucky, or the University of Louisville. University of Louisville is where most of the Negroes of the state live. It's right here at home. Why shouldn't we go here, in preference to having to go over 17:00to Lexington? If you go over to Lexington, you'll have to live on campus. If you go to University of Louisville, at that time, they didn't go in much for dormitories.

LTJ: So, the pattern was to live in the city. So, it'd be natural to live in the city and go to the U of L. Take the street car, right at 2nd Street and stop right there.

LTJ: The U of L put up their guards then, and said, "We are a private school. As a private school, you can't make us do this." They relied on the Plessy versus Ferguson case. Oh, pardon me. Not Plessy versus Ferguson. That was the one that was the pilot for separate but equal. But they relied on the Berea College case. The Berea College case was where there was a private school that was prohibited 18:00from teaching races in mixed classes.

LTJ: We said that you are a public school. They said, "We are a private school." They finally admitted, the University of Louisville finally admitted that they were getting about 15% of their money from the city. City, and county, and state all put together, about 15%. Now, on the 85%, they claim they were private.

LTJ: Our contention was that if you receive 15% of public money, then we are not going to sue on the 85. We're going to sue on the 15%. On the 15%, that is public money, and we are entitled to our fractional part of 15% of whatever it 19:00is. If you only get one dollar, 15 cents belongs to the public, and we want our share of the 15 cents.

LTJ: So, that was the argument that we carried on with the Board of Trustees before 1949. We finally decided that it might be better to take the case first to the University of Kentucky, that frankly admitted that they were a public institution. We went up there. When we put the records square on the case, put the facts on the record, just as clearly as anything, the judge, Judge H. Church Ford looked at Mister Donovan, who was the President of the University and said, "Mister Donovan, if this man," and he pointed to me, he said, "If this man, or 20:00anyone similarly situated walks on your campus tomorrow, you treat him like a first-rate citizen should be treated."

LTJ: He says, "Now, I'll write up this case, maybe two weeks from now, three weeks from now. But if you don't treat this man, or any others like him, with due consideration, you'll wish you had." They started then, making room for us. That was in 1949, in March, toward the end of March, maybe March 30, 1949.

LTJ: While I was still, during that summer session, just to show the rest of the younger Negroes that this was a reality now. I didn't intend to go up in no school. I've explained that.

DC: Yeah.

LTJ: But they said, some of my friends said, "Oh, it looks kind of hellish, to 21:00win the case and then walk off and blow it away. Why don't you go on up there and take some courses?" I said, "Well, I'm always taking refresher courses. So, I'll go up there and take a couple of courses; one political science, and one in history, and one in [inaudible 00:21:21] of education. I'll take three courses." Incidentally, I think I got two Bs and an A, or two As and a B, or something like that. I did all right.

LTJ: I came back and opened up the big guns on the University of Louisville. We told them, I remember taking a committee of five; one minister, one doctor, one lawyer, and one businessman, and myself. We sat in Mister Eli Brown's office, and we told him, "Either you can open up the university now, or eat salt out of 22:00our hands. We are fresh from victory at Lexington, and you can read the handwriting on the wall, and open these doors now, or you can be made to do it, with humiliation."

LTJ: Then I quoted the situation with reference to the president, Doctor Donovan, at the University of Kentucky. I said now, Doctor Donovan had called me into his office any number of times on the campus and said, "Mister Johnson, if there's anything you think you're entitled to that you're not getting on this campus, or any of your friends," and there were 31 of us who went to school up there that summer. He says, "If any one of your friends thinks of someplace where you are being mistreated because of race, please come and give me a chance to adjust the situation. Because I'm going to tell you frankly, it was 23:00embarrassing to sit in there and let that judge talk to me like that, and I'm the President of the biggest university in the state?"

LTJ: He said, "That was embarrassing. I don't intend to go through that again." He said, "You were right all along, but it was the state that was paying me, and the state expected me to carry out what the state instructed me to do. They instructed me to keep you out."

DC: Yeah.

LTJ: All right. I told the gentleman, Mister Brown, Eli Brown III, sitting in his office, around that great, big oak table that he had in his office.

LTJ: I have clippings right here, to demonstrate. If you had your camera, you could take pictures of these headlines. Here is one, June 25, 1949, where we 24:00announced to the University of Louisville that they can open up its doors now, or get ready for a suit. Here are other clippings. Here's one from the Courier Journal, of September 24, 1949. Here's one from the Courier Journal, where it says, "U of L delayed, third time, a decision on admission of Negroes." That was when I walked in and told them, "Now, you have five weeks to make up your mind."

DC: This was when you told them about five weeks. This was October 6, '49?

LTJ: Yeah.

DC: Okay.

LTJ: Now, you've got a short time to make up your mind. All right.

LTJ: Here are illustrations. Here are, I'll show you. Here are illustrations to prove that we were taking up money. Here are weekly reports, in the Negro weekly paper. Here is one from November 19. We had raised $548. Here is another one for December 3. We had raised over $1,000. As a matter of fact, $1,001. Here is one for December 17; we had raised $1287 for court costs. The brief was written.

DC: This might be important. Who was the lawyer that wrote the brief? Do you recall?

DC: It might be interesting for me to try to track down the brief and make a copy of it, maybe.

LTJ: No. No. You'd hardly get the brief. By now, it's been scrapped, because we never went to court.

DC: Yeah.

LTJ: I'm not so sure, but I think it's Harry MacElder. Harry MacElder, he was a very smart attorney. He not only knew the law, but he was very, very shrewd in his presentations, and very much committed. Harry S. MacElder. I think he's out 27:00in California now. He came here from Washington, and spent several years here, and was very successful. Then he was given an opportunity out in California.

LTJ: Now, I'm saying that December 17, 1949, we had over just about $1300 set aside for court costs. You see, $1300 then would be about around $4,000 now.

DC: Yeah.

LTJ: Our attorneys, for the most part, worked for relatively, costs. All right.

LTJ: My point is that with all of this evidence, you see, an accumulation of records showing that we were in the public, raising funds. We would announce to 28:00the public that we were ready, but we needed a little more money, a little more money. We enlisted the various people. Here's one person, a white friend, who enlisted, $1. Here's another one. I won't call his name, because he might be ashamed that he only gave $2.00. But anybody who gave as much as a dollar, we ran his name in the paper.

LTJ: So, this is record to support my contentions, that this wasn't just a voluntary act on the part of any bunch of rascals out there calling themselves Trustees of the University of Louisville. They were prevaricating, all along the way, when they said they did this voluntarily. All right.

LTJ: When we finally backed up the statement that you've got five weeks, 29:00emphasized this, you've got five weeks to do this, or answer to us in court. Then is when, the reason for giving them five weeks, incidentally is, I remember making the statement, "Now, gentlemen, we assume that you meet once a month. In five weeks' time, you ought to be able to present this matter to one board meeting. If you have to think it over, before the fifth week passes by, you should have a second meeting to vote on it."

DC: Yeah.

LTJ: Somewhere between the time I made that statement, and the five weeks were up, I noticed in the morning paper, of the Courier Journal, a statement, headlines, "University of Louisville Voluntarily Opens the Door to Graduate Students." That would be 1950, '51. I think that must have come in April.

LTJ: If that is correct, if that timing is correct, we then instructed our attorneys to hold back on the suit. The $1500 that we finally raised, we used that to fight other battles. We made public statements that if anybody wanted a refund on his contribution, he could have it, but we would ask them to fight to open up the parks.

LTJ: At that time, there was only one park that we could use in the city of Louisville. That's this little thing called Chickasaw, around the other side of town. White people could use Iroquois, Seneca, Shawnee, Cherokee. A Negro would be arrested if he just drove into any one of those parks and parked his car. For just sitting in his car, he could be arrested.

LTJ: So, most of this money was to [inaudible 00:31:02] to open up the parks. We'd just go from one degree of hell to another. Like I told the superintendent 31:00one day, Mister Carmichael, the great and noble Doctor Omar Carmichael. He threatened me once about going around in all these suits. He said I was just a troublemaker, disturbing the peace of the town, and the community, and whatnot. I said, "Mister Carmichael, let's just watch this. If we take a case to court, and the judge decides with us, that leaves you in hell, doesn't it."

LTJ: I'm here to tell you, I've been through so many of these battles. It may be a little cowardice on my part now. I want to quit now, because- (silence)

LTJ: ... little gang together in 1940, and won the right for Negro teachers to be paid the same salary, the white salary. We were getting 15% less, just because we were Black. We didn't lose when we went to the University of 32:00Kentucky. We didn't lose when we went to the University of Louisville. We didn't lose when we went to court to open up these parks. We didn't lose when we worked on the public accommodations. Can you imagine not being able to buy a hamburger at a White Castle restaurant, until we started raising hell around it?

LTJ: Restaurants, theaters, hotels, motels, and housing accommodation, public housing, open housing ordinances. We [inaudible 00:32:51] them on the books in state, and on the local place here. The library I just told you about, that we couldn't go into.

LTJ: How ironical it is, in 1942, they didn't want to entertain us for 33:00discussion in the main library. The irony of the thing is, I'm now a member of the Board of Trustees of the library.

DC: I read that in the paper.

LTJ: I'm Chairman of the Properties Committee. Can you imagine that? They had to put a roof on one of the buildings, and I selected the repair people. We've come a long way. I just simply say that when I go in court and win a battle, in our system of jurisprudence, what the judge says is the law.

DC: Yeah.

LTJ: His interpretation. The legislation makes the stuff. The executive enforces. But the judge tells you whether you're doing it right or not.

LTJ: Now, my last battle, I hope you understand, I'm the lead plaintiff, in this 34:00suit to have the city and county merge, and have the whole works integrated from ground up. Every child, no matter how young, is a citizen of the United States, if he's born here. Most of us Blacks are born here. We weren't born in Ghana, or Nigeria. That's for the birds, talking about, let's go back over there.

LTJ: Or, to establish Old Louisville Municipal College, which was a part of the University of Louisville, until my suit came around, until this suit that we're talking about. The Old Louisville Municipal College. Many Blacks said, "Oh, you're going to break up our nice, pretty, little college." I said, "Oh, hell! You don't have any damn pretty little college. You don't have anything."

LTJ: One professor. Going back to Plessy versus Ferguson, equal but separate case. What sense was it, if you wanted to take history at the University of 35:00Louisville, you had one history professor who was a specialist in ancient history. Another one in Roman, pardon me, medieval history, another one in modern French, another one in modern German history, another one in English history, and about half a dozen in American history.

LTJ: Now, let's go back to the Louisville Municipal College, and there's one professor who taught all of that. Now, I don't care if he had a dozen PhDs, he couldn't possibly be as good, be as much a specialist in all of these [inaudible 00:35:45] as a specialist in each one of these. Now, do you call that equal?

LTJ: Take chemistry. I think they had one man teaching all chemistry. One man, he's a PhD, he's a good man, but he couldn't be as good in all phases of chemistry. Had one man in biology. And all of these are my personal friends. Mister Robinson was a good history teacher. Mister Parrish was a good sociology 36:00professor. He finally was taken over and made head of the Department of Sociology at the U of L, after my case. But he didn't have a chance of being head of anything except a department where he was the only one in the department. He'd have to be head of the Municipal College Department. He's the only one in the department. Doctor Parrish was a good friend of mine, but his opportunities were reduced to nothing at Municipal College.

LTJ: Doctor Wilson was one of my personal friends. I didn't have any objection to them being first-rate professors. As a matter of fact, I opened up the field.

DC: Let me just be the Devil's Advocate for a second. Let's play like I am, say I'm Eli Brown. What I'm really trying to get is what you considered his motives, 37:00or the motives of the board in bogging this.

LTJ: Have you-

DC: Go ahead.

LTJ: Have you followed this recent situation, with reference to the county school system?

DC: Yeah.

LTJ: Did you notice that six members of the Board of Education, the County Board of Education voted almost in an asinine way, almost in absolute disregard, perhaps even contempt for Judge Gordon's decision?

DC: Yeah. Yeah.

LTJ: Well, that's all these trustees were doing. They were steeped in a system of segregation.

DC: Okay. Okay.

LTJ: They were trying to be loyal to the system that appointed them as trustees. They were supposed, a bunch of trustees of any public institution, of any 38:00institution, trustees are supposed to act for those who appointed them.

DC: Sure. You're saying that's what they were doing.

LTJ: The community, what did Omar Carmichael tell me? He said, "Mister Johnson, you were employed." He used the word hired. He said, "You were hired into a system that was segregated in every phase of its activity. Did you know that when you were employed, back in 1933?" I said, "I did." He said, "Well, then, Mister Johnson, you are unprofessional to be using your talents, and time, and energy, and money to fight the system that feeds you." Well, that explains it. They were loyal to the system that operated in that day. That system was rigid segregation.

LTJ: When my little girl, my daughter, in 1939 was walking down 4th Street, 39:00which was the commercial center of this town, when she wanted to go to the bathroom, we had to rush about five blocks away to find a restroom to take the little girl to.

DC: Yeah.

LTJ: If any bunch of, I have to restrain myself to keep from calling them some ugly names. If anybody thinks that, that's fair, then they haven't got the sense God gave chickens.

DC: So, you don't think-

LTJ: It was deliberate, that's what I mean.

DC: You don't think that they weren't for you, is what you're saying?

LTJ: As long as we Blacks, I don't like this term, Blacks, but this young bunch 40:00of Negroes. I like the word Negro. Hell, I don't even like that. I don't know what to call me. I've got just about as much Black blood in me as I got white blood for me, and I have contempt for either one of them who disrespects me. See, it's not my fault what I am.

DC: Yeah.

LTJ: When I went to the University of Kentucky, Doctor Seay (?), the Dean of Admissions to the college said, "Mister Johnson, aren't you a Negro?" I said, "Hell, I don't know. Am I? It doesn't concern me. I'm not worried about it, and it's none of your damn business what I am. I just happen to know, when I looked at the sun the first time, here I was. I had nothing to do. But upon inspection, I expect," as I told the little cuss up at University of Michigan back in 1930, I said, "Look, man, I expect I've got better white blood in me than you have." I said, "I can prove mine. I came from the aristocracy, the plantation manager, 41:00the plantation owner was my great granddaddy. Now, who in the hell is your daddy? You can't prove where you came from. I can."

LTJ: I said, "I admit that the Black woman that he chased around out there in the cabin was my great, great grandmother. So, I've got Black on one hand and white on the other. I have contempt for either one of the bastards who disrespects me. It's not my fault. So, Doctor Seay (?), don't you worry about this. You just worry about do I have money enough to pay my tuition, do I have composure enough to walk in the classroom and act like a civilized person. Do I have brain enough to try to find out what in the hell is the professor talking about, and give him hell when he brings up a lot of stuff that isn't according to fact?"

LTJ: I said, "That's what a student does." I said, "And don't bother about my 42:00color. Don't bother about my race. That's immaterial. 14th Amendment says any person born in the United States is a citizen of the United States, and as a citizen of the United States, he's entitled to all the rights and privileges of citizens of the [inaudible 00:42:23] state. So now, move over, Mister Seay, and don't you talk to me like that anymore, because as a taxpayer, I'm paying your salary. That makes you my servant." I said, "Don't talk to your boss man like that. The student is the boss. You're just a servant around here to me, Doctor Seay (?)."

LTJ: Oh, it's very ironic. I went on, won my case. Six weeks, I took a course in summer school that ran eight weeks. At the end of the six weeks, Doctor Seay called me and said, "Mister Johnson, do you know where I'll be, before you finish your next two weeks here?" I said, "No, I don't."

LTJ: He said, "I'll be at University of Chicago. I have become an expert on how 43:00to integrate Black people onto a university campus in the South." He says, "You have made me." He said, "Until you came, I was just a professor at another one of the Southern universities. I'll now be a professor, before you get back to your school at Louisville, I will be a professor on the campus at the University of Chicago. Thank you very much. You've made me." I said, "Go ahead, Mister Seay(?). I gave you hell. Watch, now I'm complementing you. I'm glad I gave you that hell."

DC: I don't know. I think we pretty much covered the integration story.

LTJ: But it's like this. Any number of Black students have gone out there, and they found some other prejudice professors. On the other hand, there have been 44:00some students were not what I call college material.

LTJ: Now, college is not intended for people who just want to dodge going to work when they get to be an adult. A college, or a university, ought to be a place where a person wants to pursue education, behind the high school or the normal level. Therefore, it ought to be a place for people who will do serious study.

LTJ: Now, if some people get out there and find that, that wasn't, that isn't their bag of tricks and get flunked out, I don't want them rushing back to me and telling me, "Mister Johnson, that mean old white man flunked me out." I said, "Did you get your lesson? Did you turn in your report?" "No, but he knew." "No, did you turn in your reports? Were you in class all the time? Did you really study? Did you stay up?" I said, "Now, I've been all along the way," and 45:00I said, "I knew the man was after me. I took the attitude, professor, if you want to flunk me, you've got to flunk all these white boys." I said, "Now, did you set the pace in your class?"

LTJ: "No, he knew that I," well, okay. Just go on out in the back yard and eat worms, and snakes, and weasels, because that's all you deserve, if you didn't deliver the goods. Now, if you carried your stuff in line, if you're there every day, and you sat up at night and dug out the work. I said, "Remember this, also. Just looking at the book isn't studying." I said, "You've got to read, and think as you read, and try to digest what you're reading. That's what college work is 46:00about. You're not supposed to get a passing mark in college, just because you sit in the class. If you did that in high school, maybe the teacher was glad to give you a passing mark just to get rid of you, but they don't do that in college."

LTJ: Now, when they come to me as the President of the NAACP, when must I suppose that the child, the student is a victim of race prejudice when he fails? I don't know. I have to do a lot of studying. When a professor is teaching American History, or Sociology, and he constantly refers to the farm where they used to work, and he just seems to think that it was such a pity that civilization came along and made Blacks go to school, when they were sitting out on his Daddy's plantation, and eating watermelons, and just enjoying them.

LTJ: Well, what Black student sitting in a class, trying to get through college and go on to law school, or medical school, or something like that, you don't 47:00want to listen to all that kind of tripe. Now, the professor ought to be run out. The American Association of University Professors ought to discipline that person.

LTJ: Always telling some joke about how happy a Negro is with a banjo, and My Old Kentucky Home, where darkies are happy and gay. What in the hell is a Darkie?

DC: They still play that. I went to college in Owensboro. At 12:00 at night, 48:00instead of playing the National Anthem, they played My Old Kentucky Home, It's Summer, The Darkies Are Gay.

LTJ: In the summer, the darkies are gay.

DC: I was surprised that they got away with it.

LTJ: Well, we play it when you run the Kentucky Derby.

DC: They don't sing the words, though.

LTJ: One of my little encounters with the local Board of Education was, why it was, I told the children in my class, I said, "Whenever you're out in public, and they strike up My Old Kentucky Home, and everybody stands, you sit down. Don't get up. Don't get up." They said, "Well, Mister Johnson, that's our," I said, "Hell, you think I'm going to ask people to stand up when they're insulting you? That doesn't make sense."

LTJ: One of the members of the Board of Education said, "You are a cuss, aren't you?" I said, "You have freedom of speech. You can call me a cuss all you want to, but when you get through, I'm going to look you square in the face and say, 'The only difference is, you are two cusses.' I don't mind you calling me other 49:00names. When you get through, I'll listen to you, freedom of speech. Then I have the same right, 14th Amendment. I have as much right as you do. So now, you have the right. You chose how much of a cuss I am. I'm one. I choose to say, you're just two of them."

LTJ: I'm like Harry Truman. Somebody said something about his daughter that he didn't like. Somebody said, "Mister Truman, did you call that guy a-" He says, "I don't know whether I called him that or not, but if I didn't, he's two."

LTJ: I told Mister [inaudible 00:49:54], the Superintendent one day, I said, "Look, man, my physical features, my thick lips, my broad nose, any other characteristics that you ascribe to me, if you disparage my status because of factors beyond my control, let it be understood that I have just as much utter 50:00contempt for you as you do for me. You understand?"

LTJ: This is in front of the Board of Education, with about 25 or 30 visitors around the wall, reporters and everybody. I said, "Just let it be understood that our relations are mutual."

DC: Well, I think we've got the, what you wanted to relay down, about U of L.

LTJ: [crosstalk 00:50:58]

DC: I do want to put into the tape that you had these scrapbooks.

LTJ: Sure! You see this one? How big is that? Is that an inch and a half?

DC: Yeah.

LTJ: I've got four of them.

DC: Oh! Four scrapbooks. Well, that's nice.

LTJ: I've got four.

DC: Oh.

LTJ: If anybody doubts any, is this on this tape?

DC: Yeah.

LTJ: If anybody doubts anything I've said, tell them to come down here, and I'll open his eyes. I'm a history teacher, and I have prided myself on being a history teacher who debunks a lot of stuff.

DC: Yeah.

LTJ: I've always fussed with my Board of Education and the Superintendents. I don't fuss with the principals. I do what my principal says do, because he can write me up as non-cooperative, and all that kind of jive. But when I get beyond my principal, get to my Superintendent, or the Assistant Superintendent, I give them hell.

LTJ: They got after me one day for saying, "Why do you teach so much that isn't 52:00in the history book?" I said, "I refuse to be a party to the propagation of lies!" I said, "I will tell the students to read what's in the book, and I will give them a test something like this. Now, what does the author say? I won't ask them what is the fact because they might tell me what the author said as if it were fact. So, I always say, what was the fact."

LTJ: Now, to say that the Darkies were gay, how in the world can any conscientious historian say that the slaves were happy in plantation life, when they were always figuring, how can they rise in rebellion and kill the master? Now, if the master didn't fear that he'd be killed some night, or that his house would be burned, or that his barn would be burned by some disgruntled slave, how can some fool write a dissertation and get a PhD on it? How can some university 53:00approve saying that, on that plantation, the Darkies were gay, and happy, and loved being in slavery?

LTJ: People with kindergarten sense would know better than that. Now, why should I, as a professor in a history class, relay all that junk? No, I've been debunking. Talking about George Washington being such, "Oh he was a nice fellow." But did they ever talk about how he used to go down the street, and slip off from his wife, and go down to take care of that widow down the street, who was a nice looking little lady? Did they ever put that in the history books?

LTJ: No, that doesn't help our image. Thomas Jefferson inviting some of his friends from college. Not college, from the legislature, from the Congress, 54:00inviting some of the young men to come out. He had some very nice, pretty, little half-white babies. Girls out there on the plantation, be a nice recreation to play around with.

LTJ: Now, you don't put that right out on the front page of a history book. No, you talk about how he founded the University of Virginia, and he wrote the Declaration of Independence, which is all good. I just listen to all of the good you say about people and I say, "Now, there's always another side to the situation. If you look real hard, you'll find it." The harder you look, you see, we just didn't look quick enough at Richard Nixon, but it's always another side.

LTJ: One thing I caution myself about, I just hope people don't know as much about me as I know about myself, because they might get the other side of me.

DC: Yeah. Well, I'm impressed by your scrapbooks. Those are nice.

LTJ: I can go into almost any phase. I can go into the situation to show that, when Mister Milton was principal of Male High School, did you ever hear of him?

DC: I don't guess so.

LTJ: He was, he and I are pretty good friends now. We've got past that, but we had to educate the gentleman. He's a very smart person and an excellent principal, excellent for the old system.

LTJ: He wanted to be mayor. He'd been chairman of the Board of Aldermen for about four, or maybe eight years. He wanted to step up and become mayor. He just about had it made, but he made one big mistake. We asked him, "Mister Milton, if you were mayor, what would you recommend with reference to public accommodations, allowing an ordinance to be passed that would make it illegal to refuse to serve a Negro at places like a White Castle restaurant or the Seelbach 56:00Hotel, anywhere?"

LTJ: He says, "Well, I've been opposed to that kind of stuff all my life. I think it'd be better for the races if we keep them separate. You know what my position is. So, it won't be necessary to restate it now." For the simple reason that we tried to impress upon him that we were voters. This was a Negro audience. We were voters, and we were trying to make up our minds.

LTJ: He knew then, that he had 65% to 70% of the vote in his pocket. He was just about sure to be mayor. He said, "So, you see, it's not necessary for me to 57:00restate the case and bring that all up again. You can't help me and you sure can't hurt me."

LTJ: Well, that was an open insult to us. My little gang, I didn't do it all, but a little gang met right down the street here, just two blocks from here, at Zion Baptist Church back in the little study room. We had a group down there. After that meeting, we said, "We will wreck this man if there's any way possible."

LTJ: He resigned as principal of Male High School to run for mayor. From principal, to run for mayor of the city. He ran, and with a little organization in the Black community, and with some disgruntled white, and the voting was 58:00counted, that 35% solid vote for the Republican candidate augmented by 20% of the vote who were disenchanted with the haughtiness of Mister Milton.

LTJ: It resulted in 55% for Mister Mayor Cowger and Mister Milton was left. He had resigned from the Board of Education, and he missed the mayor's job, and he's left out in the cold. That was a pretty good day. He deserved to be treated like that, because he insulted us. He said, "You can't help me and you sure can't hurt me." We said, "Mister Milton, you've got to be reckoned with, and you've got to reckon with us."

LTJ: Mayor Cowger made the statement, in a national television hookup, he was on 59:00the program, and I was on the same program. It was ad over the Today Show one morning, by 9:00 in the morning. On the Today Show, Mister Cowger referred to Professor Lyman Johnson, said, "This is my favorite Democrat. Without him, I would not have been elected mayor." That's what he said on the national hookup.

DC: Oh, wow. Yeah. That's an interesting story. Well, I'd better let you go. You have something at 3:30, don't you?

LTJ: Yeah. I [inaudible 00:59:46]-

LTJ: I would like to suggest, for further amplification, and I don't want to say ratification, or verification, but I will say for collaboration, let you speak 60:00to Doctor George D. Wilson, who was one of the professors at Municipal College. He is in the city and has a wealth of information.

DC: Okay.

LTJ: Doctor C. H. Parish, who is still in the city, and was one of the professors at Louisville Municipal College. I would like to refer to Doctor Bright, Doctor William Bright, but he passed perhaps a year ago. He was the biology professor. All three of these are PhDs, or were. They were highly respected people. Maybe they could amplify on some of the things I've said. I know they could if they would.

DC: Yeah.

LTJ: [inaudible 01:00:59]

DC: Okay. I think-

LTJ: At least put them on the record, that they are. Like myself, as long as we're here, they have a wealth of information. In cross checking, you might find 61:00some places where I was perhaps a little hazy on dates and whatnot.

DC: Yeah.