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Dwayne Cox: I think is May 5 1981. And my name is Dwayne Cox and doing an oral history interview with Becky Hudson, who is the former up until just the other day was Women's Athletic Director at the University of Louisville had been, basketball, women's basketball coach at U of L and professor in the age HPER department and in other things too. And I always start out by asking somebody just to say a little bit about where they're from and their education and their parents and how they got interested in in what they're interested in. So--

Becky Hudson: Well, I am a Kentucky lady from small town below Lexington they 1:00Millersburg Kentucky, basically a farm girl. My family moved to Lexington when I was 14 and as a consequence, residing in Lexington and at the University of Kentucky became possible for me to go to school. I love sports and athletics and probably take that affection from my father who at one time aspired to coaching degree but is unable to finish a family that is involved in sport. So it just seemed natural, not wanting to be a secretary, not wanting to be a nurse. Teaching would become a vocation or an avocation. And I guess in a sense, I kind of lucked into physical education or straight into it because it was never something I ever thought about. From there. The degree from UK, I went to California, spent a couple of years teaching in junior high I realized that I 2:00didn't want to do that the rest of my life although I enjoyed it. Came back got a master's degree from the University of Kentucky in 1964. Taught in a small Junior College in Virginia, taught elementary physical education bounced around really looking for a place to settle and something that I enjoyed when the opportunity to work at the University of Louisville ocurred. And, in fact, the interesting thing about it was that the chairman of the department who was John Heldeman actually wrote a letter to me indicating that he knew I was in the area. Okay, would I be interested in the intramural directorship for women at UofL. At that time I was teaching elementary PE and a college position is 3:00something I was very interested in. So I came up for an interview and I think that was in June and in August, I had a new job at UofL in 1968.

DC: Can you say a little bit more about where you? Did you? Did you play and would you play? We in athletics?

BH: No, in fact, it is the very fact that I had no opportunity to play in organized sport that probably ultimately has led me to an almost--I hate to say this soft militant role in athletics. In the entire secondary and elementary education experience that I had in the state of Kentucky I had one year of physical education in the ninth grade. I was fortunate that I had teachers who might have occasional field days and we'd have track meets so I was a good fast 4:00runner so I could get a ribbon for being a 50 yard sprinter. Interestingly enough, I played on the ninth grade boys football flag football team. Excellent athlete it's time and I knew there was a sad part about it is a great you know, I had really strong potential as an athlete and no, no outlet for for my love. I played summer softball and played in a disorganized Metropolitan Basketball League and high school in Lexington. You know, working with people who genuinely cared but who lacked any kind of real expertise or knowledge and coaching fundamentals or even working with children and from that perhaps grew in need or or a sense of me that that I had lost an opportunity because of a lack of qualified personnel. Maybe that's what led to the physical education degree.

My lost opportunity. When I came to Louisville, I came only because it was an 5:00opportunity to make more money to get involved in the college scene. And of course, the opportunity to coach basketball is exciting to me. I did play college basketball, UK. And I played the college volleyball team and on the softball team, but you better remember that was 1960 1958 1962. And again, with no secondary physical education, no organized girls sports in Kentucky with the exception of swimming. We played five or six basketball games a year. We had a squad of 22 girls on the basketball team, everybody gets to play. And it used to 6:00irritate me to a great deal that we could be winning a ballgame. But in order to get the necessary time and for everybody to play, the best people set out while everybody else we ran in. And I think that's my my love of varsity competition is the best to compete. And while we have, like I said, 22 people with five or six games for the year, our major excitement was to get on a bus go to Miami University in Ohio. And get to play basketball game up there, get to eat out, and somebody paid our way and came back. And that was that was probably the biggest thing we did in my entire college varsity experience.

DC: Did you I don't want to sound like hindsight or anything. But did you? Did you? Did you not like that?

BH: I detested it.

DC: Can you talk about that some?


BH: Well, as I said, I have a brother who's a year older than I am. And my brother and I were both excellent athletes. My sister was a year younger than I am as an excellent athlete. My brother was able to play football at Lexington Lafayette for four years. And every Saturday night my family tripped out we watched my brother do all those fantastic things on the field and get the write ups for having been 40-60 yard ground gainer or scored a touchdown. When the track season rolled around, he set state records for the 100 and 200 yard dash of course, I'm sitting there yelling and screaming at the same time thinking that in the backyard, you and I play basketball. That's pretty darn close to it. But none of those experiences existed for me. There wasn't even an organized 8:00event in my life until the Metropolitan softball leagues. And even in that I was I was a 14 and 15 year old girl playing with 40 year old women. Big burly, ugly women frightened me. They talked rough, they drank, you know, I mean, there's nothing wrong with that, except when you're 14. All you want to do is play but you got to play with come under some less than I think good circumstances. And yes, it irritated me extremely, then to go to college and and see, you know, the Fabulous Five, or they weren't Fabulous Five when I was there. But there was a group that came close to winning the NCAA Title I think somewhere in that time span and 60 to 65. And to go to Memorial Coliseum where the men's basketball team played regularly on a daily basis, and yet we had to play in an old women's 9:00gym is about as big as 60x80 you could shoot from one end of the court to the other make a goal. I'm not saying at that time, I gave a great deal of thought to it. But I think it disturbed me that I didn't have a chance to take home a prize or ribbon or or essentially get good coaching. It disturbed me that my skill was just floating around and coming from middle class or lower middle class family. I didn't have the resources to play tennis, golf, swimming, which were the three sports at that time that if you had money a woman had an opportunity to to excel. But if a team oriented person. Some someone interested in something other than swimming, tennis and golf where it took money, was just really left out in Kentucky. I went to California and taught for two years. Saw 10:00a whole new world, because I went out there and they had physical education every day, five days a week from from the first grade through the 12th grade. They had fourth or sixth, seventh, eighth ninth grade boys football team. But they also had organized when GAA or Girls Athletic Association activities for girls, and so every day after school, I might have 20 to 60 girls in the gym staying after school for organized sport competition. You know, I think part of it was my, at my insistence that it got done, but the thing is that the school supported it, that money was was allowed and allocated for competition. If someone chose to put in the time I was paid. In Kentucky, there wasn't even 11:00access to a facility even if you even if the teacher wanted to do something for you. She couldn't get to the gym. She couldn't get to the track because the boys were always there. And in those days, we didn't have the mass transportation. Potential we have now you couldn't stay till seven o'clock at night and your parents didn't take you over to the high school at seven and come back pick you up at nine o'clock like they might do today.

DC: that you when you were in. When you taught in high school. In Junior College, did you coach and teach?

BH: Yes, I did.

DC: Tell just tell the names of what

BH: I was at Victor Valley, junior high schools, my first teaching job flat out of UK. I taught physical education five days a week, no health and that's important because that's unique. And you don't have to teach health in Kentucky 12:00teach health and PE in order to make this more educated on legitimate academic subjects.

And victory Victor Valley. Like there was a seventh eighth ninth grade, I ran an organized the GAA for girls. I coached a track team for girls. And in the afternoon we play basketball and intramurals, archery, track, soccer--all the intramural programs I've conducted. Actually, I didn't coach there. But I just taught extramural activities and intramural activities And I was a cheerleading sponsor. So they went down to boy football basketball games. Then I went, I came back on my degree, I went to Virginia in Vermont, and got a Master's I came back got a Master's ended up in a small Junior College in Bristol, Virginia, Virginia Intermont Junior College, where I coached tennis, and field hockey, and 13:00basketball, and volleyball. In addition to my teaching duties, I only stayed a year. But it only had to do with the community, not necessarily the institution's. It was a good experience. My basketball team went 10 and 1 for the year, like this, for my real love basketball group, we our first game, we got beat 25 points. We never lost another game and then beat that same opponent at the end of the year by 14 points. So I think I grew a little bit as a coach. The thing about a position like that is when you're coaching four sports, and then you're teaching you never have time to yourself. And for that reason, I decided that try to come back to Kentucky in order to find a job here at a college and here. I wrote, nothing was open. So I said well, I come back to live 14:00and hope something will open up. I've taught elementary PE for a year. So I'm not done any coaching except that one year of collegiate experience when the job at Louisville occurred, 68. And I was hired to be in intramural director and to teach physical education activities courses. At the same time, there was an indication that the basketball team didn't have a coach, would I be interested in that? And I said, Well, I had no opposition to it, I would give it a whirl. When I got here, the basketball program or any of the varsity programs, I would say we're simply very similar to anything I've experienced in my high school days. UK, UK playing days, five or six games One of the professor's volunteered 15:00time to coach. The girls paid their own way drove their own cars. Coaches simply wrote letters to their colleges to say, Would you like to get together on Saturday afternoon, Thursday night? And that was my first experience, coaching, in 1968.

DC: What, just generally. What was your first impression of UofL?

BH: Oh, I loved it. I felt that. For one thing, it was it was much bigger than Virginia Intermont, which is a junior college. The Physical Education Department was had a much bigger staff and men and women rather than all women, which is what I come from. Teaching the activities courses, was probably no different. 16:00But I believe I felt that this was a big institution. And at the time, it wasn't that 6000 undergraduates but to me, coming from only small, high schools, junior high and small colleges, it seemed like parallel step the University of Kentucky in terms of opportunity. I thought the physical education staff was made up of nice people, good natured people. Not sure that I was terrifically impressed with the the expertise, the intellect that you might might find on other campuses, but it seemed like a good place to begin and college career.


DC: You mentioned, you mentioned John--Held---Heldeman. Yes, john. JOHN,

BH: was the department chairman. And apparently, and I think this is still the case that UofL, I don't want to step on anyone's toes, but I think that chairman at this particular institution are figureheads. They're the good guys who will accept the responsibility, not necessarily the most. competent for the position. John was one of those who had outlived everybody else in the department. He was older and everybody else in this class was inherited chairmanship. And he was a kind of guy that probably in today's university would just be a lost marble, because he did everything my telephone, verbal agreement, never wrote anything down full of wonderful stories, and believed in getting along at all costs. Sometimes it's because maybe this program doesn't get along. He had an ongoing feud, or an ongoing feud with Sue Hall, really.


DC: Anybody know the origins?

BH: he-- the origins are rooted very deeply in physical education. And that is the separation of departments, men's physical education and women's physical education. I think that the the feminist movement has been in physical education for centuries where men had all the opportunities. women had the jobs but had fewer resources to work with. I think that was the case here. In most institutions. When I went to UK, we had a women's PE department, we had men's PE department. Then we had an athletic department when it came to Louisville, and we had a woman's PE depart. Well, we had women's PE and Belknap building. We had 19:00men's PE and Crawford gym, that ought to tell you something right there. Yeah. A nice building to the resources. Then we had an athletic department, which at that time, I don't really know where the athletic line was, I guess it was someplace else. And I think that probably down through the years because Dr. Hall and Dr. Hellman had been working together and living together and trying to coexist together for probably 10 years before I ever got here. And I'm sure that they're, they're hot there. Their distance was created by Dr. Hall wanting more as most women have wanted, physical Education and Dr. Hellman holding on to what he had, which is what men still are attempting to do in athletics. That's interesting. It's interesting. That's it. That's interesting. I think that's 20:00probably where we are living today in the total area of athletics. So revenue sports have a great deal, which they're very unwilling to relinquish. For those who are non revenue oriented. It hasn't changed. The combatants are different. The situations are certainly improved for both sides. But it's gonna be a long time before it's resolved.

DC: Who were some of the other people that you first met at U of L and some of the old timers who were around then? And what were the buildings like?

BH: Well, of course, I mentioned Crawford and it was a spanking new building just about when I came probably five years old and the showcase for this campus. Belknap gym was old and dilapidated, but still very functional. Gardener Hall 21:00was probably the place where I met Dean Barber. At the time Richard Barber was dean of A&S at the time and interviewed me when I was here. But most impressive Dick Barber with, with his sense, his wit, his his intellect. And the fact that he believed that physical education intramurals was was an integral part of the academic setting. Going to classes was just one part of education. I felt very, very tuned to him at the time. I'm trying to think some of the people maybe throughout the university, Ellis Mendelssohn was even then a legend on campus. And Ellis, of course, I was the woman's intramural director, and Ellis was the 22:00man's intramural director, said I was just the baby coming into this situation, I knew nothing and cared nothing except that I had a good opportunity to. Ellis and I fortunately formed a very good association and a very good working situation, primarily, I think, because I didn't threaten his particular situation, but rather eliminate some of the workload that he presently had, because his program even then was highly organized. But he was doing the same things then that he's doing now-trying to use as many facilities as he could possibly get. Always asking for more money and more time and more help. He hasn't changed a bit. I think Dr. Strickler was the president at the time. And although I did not meet Dr. Strickler than an occasional reception line, I remember his wife, Florence was a very influential person on this campus. I think a lot of this looked to her for the kinds of things that seemed to be 23:00missing in an institution that some was larger. Now notice the personal touch. She, she maybe didn't know your name, but she know how to make you feel comfortable. That you may be doing something important. Wherever you were when you were in the library or physical education or over in the student cafeteria. Dave Lawrence was dean of students. And who was the Dean of Women at that time, Doris Stokes. And Pat Allison was an assistant dean and Harold Adams was some kind of an assistant for both of them. And I think I probably spent a great deal of time with those four because my job is intramural director related a great 24:00deal to Student Affairs so we had some good times. Dave and Doris who were had been here for centuries. I think I'd remember them and Clark Wood was then assistant to the Dean of Arts and Science. Clark Wood was a professor and assistant professor in the department then. Dr. Hellman died and retired rather, Clark became the chairman. The people I met probably through the years for you know, i knew Frank Camp--didn't know him to well, the one I remember most is a Peck Hickman. Because I worked for him one summer kind of summer youth employment camp or something. Peck was not anything like John Hellmann, who 25:00would ask you to do something three or four times to try to work. Peck just said do it. And it got done. He was hat kind of person. Lee Corso coached here while I was here. And I remember Lee because Lee has spent a great deal of time time to convince the faculty that we ought to take care of the ghetto boys out of the North in order to make his football team --. is Jim Bible was a trainer here and had been for about 30 years. He has since gone with (?) Indiana. One of the things I remember about Jim was that he was so frightened with women in the training room. So I first came here we a training room belonged only to the men, women weren't permitted to go in. And when we asked why we were told that the men run around naked--all the men do in the training room, get rub downs, get in 26:00the hot water--what do you call those things...whirlpools-- I just wondered why they couldn't put on their trunks, if we could put on a bathing suit. Finally, we got that taken care of but it does go. I think in retrospect, it goes to show you how difficult it is for women to ask for change, even of a minute nature, those are so traditional in men's programs, they have a difficult time giving them up.

DC: What was--talk some about the women's intramural program, which you were--

BH: T he women's intramural program was at the time I came and I really didn't change it because intermurals is not a love of mine. Philosophically, I believe it's the right approach to competition. But I had had all those years of such 27:00poor organization that I think I kind of assumed that intermurals meant poorly organized activity for women. So I didn't have a great affection for it. And I wanted the job so I'd do it. It was primarily a development of recreational activities for the sororities on campus. And most of the activities that I conducted were designed for the sororities. We'd have hockey in the fall we have volleyball at night, we have basketball, all the sororities would get together, you know, the Pi five to get their theme up against the--I'm trying to think...was it Sigma Kappa? Sigma,

I don't know I never ---


BH: But anyway they you know, it was it was an important part of campus life for the sororities. So when I came, my love of competition spilled over I believe in to my students, my own physical education majors. And they became very, very active in the intramural program, which began to create a real problem because their skill level was so superior to the sororities, that the sororities began to lose interest in the program. We had. That is still a problem with university, permitting the athlete or the physical education major to come together in any kind of organized fashion because when they do, they almost invariably dominate physical sport for both men and women alike. however, I felt that they were just as entitled organized sport, as were the sorority girls, and we worked it out. We weren't the university wasn't big enough to separate 29:00sorority in one division and independence in another--that's what they do now. And at that time, we did we just, every year we switch the rules around or made some concession to one group and the other in order to keep the peace. It was a it was a highly organized program. There was I think, anywhere from 10 to 15 intramural activities for women the program they have now, they had then. Ellis and I did initiate co rec activities, which is something that had not been done prior to my coming. We had co-rec basketball, co-rec volleyball, men and women play together. Co-rec softball--all of those occured while I was still here, and while he was trying to remove


DC: Can--if you were taking it own up to the present, is there more that you can say about, about women's intramurals.

BH: Oh, in general, I would say that the intramural department had been taken out of the Physical Education department. So now we had an intramural department functioning in its own Woodstock budget. And I had an athletic department, I was going to function with its own budget. So we neither Alice nor myself are suddenly restrained by budget, that belong to an academic department. And they're, I think, enable great growth in both areas in intermurals. And then athletics for women, because it was the tide of the academic department, and the budgeting restraints that had limited growth to begin with. Now, now in America is now in student affairs, athletics is in the athletic. So when else went to the Student Affairs Office, more budget, coming from the university in general, 31:00rather than an academic partner, enabled him to pick up the necessary staff to give more time to women's intermurals. So that now he has a full time assistant who runs the women's interview program, but she doesn't have to coach basketball on the side. And she's not a coach. She's teaching five classes a day, which is what I was doing. What were the most jobs you ever had at one time? Well, at one time, I was the basketball coach, the intramural director, and I taught 12 hours per week that when I first came here, that was my job. Believe it or not, Dwayne, I thought that was I had a lot of energy and has only points. That's not too bad when you're 27.


DC: What about--the--you talked a little bit about thephysical education department when you came here. And I wondered if you could talk more about how it's changed or how it hasn't changed? And you said, you said one thing that was interesting to me? And I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean. But I think maybe what you meant was that the departmental term, Chairman or woman, not just in, in physical education, but maybe all of the departmental chair, people are very powerful. Is that is that accurate? Is that what you mean?

BH: I'm not sure that's accurate. That's a personal opinion. This is my viewpoint of the University of rollable overall, that the majority of the people up until a few years ago, the administrative positions were filled by those 33:00people who had worked in this institution when it was a small private institution. As the institution became part of the state, and even as faculties expanded, or staff members expanded, the people who were moved into administrative positions and into leadership roles, were those people who had been here in a small private institution. And one says, I think that politically they got their positions because of their past ties and their friendships, rather than the academic excellence of the administrative confidence that they brought to the job, which is more typical of the day's appointments than it was. Even I'd say as much as five years. Every result, I think they probably weren't as powerful because they were, they were good old Joe's. And when you when you 34:00went to speak to the new or to that time, we didn't have too many vice presidents to about five years ago. The Dane was a buddy that you'd been drinking coffee with for five years. And I just don't think you have the same kind of power that you do now when you bring somebody in from New York or Pennsylvania or for a team from University of Kentucky who comes in on the basis of credentials rather than past accomplishments,

DC: Talk some about the how the Physical Education Department has changed.

BH: Well, essentially the department has changed not from the personnel, there 35:00are still many people who were are on staff now who are on staff when I came here, there have been several people to leave and several people to replace them. But essentially the staff is the same. What has really changed throughout Physical Education has been more a one of the goals of the department rather than the people within the department when I came, our Physical Education department is one that was very general in nature. Our purpose of the department was to prepare the young teacher to teach physical education activities in the local high schools.


With the kind of demise of teaching colleges, so to speak, in many, in many ways, the and the fact that we seem to be getting an abundance young teachers and high school teachers in our province, there was a move toward the research or preparation for master's program within the department you can take that on, when they brought in cutting remember the first guy but somebody came from Ohio State, they pretty much turn the department around. And when he came on department of exercise physiology, research, Brian Stanford came in 1972. And with Brain's coming and the exercise physiology lab that we began to develop, I believe the Physical Education degree here began to take on that aspect, not 37:00activity oriented, but academically oriented and preparation for the master's program. And kind of a an intent to to give a liberal education level background. Lesson tip for scale, and I personally have never felt that was very good. I think that we have a great number today, physial educators who had a great number of theoretical courses and know nothing about stringing an archery bow or hitting a badminton bird, is the result Kentucky high schools continue to turn out poorly skilled athletes compared to somewhere else. States I think a good activities teacher an individual who is well is very knowledgeable in how to teach somebody how to use a racket, throw ball, kick a ball run, is probably 38:00one of the most valuable people we have today's society. We don't turn them out. Yeah. And yeah, that's what people want. That's why people go to the tennis shots at tennis pros, and go to the golf shelf, buy golf pros. Come to Danny's camps in the summer, it would pay $150. And the little boy taught skills the fiscal educators could easily do in the high schools, if they were probably, you know, maybe differently prepared than I think they are the best. So let's say for a biased opinion, but lets you

DC: further your opinions by astronauts, you described an interesting trend, an interesting change.


BH: Yes, I think physical education is no longer skills oriented. And when I when I was in a major UK, it was skills oriented, but I felt that I was extremely well prepared to teach skills to young people. And I don't think that's true today. I think students today have a great deal of theory. They understand the sociology of sport, they understand the history of sport, they understand the principles of movement. They have appropriate background anatomy and physiology, but whether or not they really have a love and really have an understanding of the mechanics of movement as it relates to an implement, as it relates to a game, I don't question that.

DC: Yeah, that's interesting. There was another Not long after you came you avail you know, Are you talking about President Strickler? And you've alluded to it already? There was another I guess, landmark in history of the university, and that was state affiliation.


Can you do it? Are there any things you can say? Just generally, or

BH: specifically, very generally, everything I'm saying is generally because without my you know, that notes, and I'm not sure yours are correct. These are really just off the top of my head. rememberances.

DC: What about changes that you noticed, since this state to me was the best thing that happened to the University of Louisville?

BH: Mainly, I believe, because, as I see the city of Louisville, not necessarily the institution of the university. I have always felt that Louisville was the center, the Metropolitan center of the state of Kentucky, and that when I came to Louisville, I thought that if there was any place in the world you'd want to live would be any city you wanted to live in Kentucky would have to be Louisville, because now the other cities measured up they were basically 41:00Lexington and all the other small towns were just overgrown farm towns anyway. Yeah, when I came here, that was the rare individual that had ever heard of the University of Louisville, or cared about and the only the only students that we had were those who had financial resources to come because the tuition was quite exorbitant at the time. It was I'm guessing, but I think we might have been paying like $50 an hour as an undergraduate here, at UofL, when the state schools will pay eight to 10. Yeah. So here you were with a potential great institution, paying a lot of money for limited resources. I remember that when you wanted to do a paper at UofL in 1970. Okay. If you want it to make it accurate, you have to go to UK library. So we had kids going and getting diplomas here who had to go to UK, or IU, to do the necessary research for their papers.


DC: That's interesting.

BH: And that's, that's a terrible dilemma for students who's paying five times the tuition and a time where, you know, you don't have as many cars on the road, the interstates are just becoming completed. That was a terrible dilemma. Plus the community itself, it was it was a municipal institution, which the city was always trying to get out of supporting. I mean, it was always tax, you know, it was always a burden to the city. Every time you read the newspaper, the city was trying to cut back and cut back and cut back. So here you hear you had an 43:00institution that that essentially was able to educate kids in Jefferson County, and they were all leaving the county to go to school someplace else. And I just felt they were coming from the Lexington from the University of Kentucky all you ever dreamed of in Lexington was going to UK. But one of the reasons you went was because you could afford it. Yeah. And here you were in Jefferson County. And you couldn't afford to come down here and go to school for one year for what you could almost get a full education. Okay. So, to me, the community, the Jefferson County community is the real benefactor. And, and I thought it was an outstanding improvement. As far as our own programs. It's like anything else. Whenever you grow, you lose, you lose a great deal, you lose the personal touch you we lost the the knowledge that we knew everybody on campus, the student teacher ratio became magnified. And so you couldn't afford to let the students come into your office is off because there were too many of them and you 44:00couldn't get things done, then began the emphasis on research and publishing, then a publish or perish and then a fight over the almighty dollar, which we didn't have, then we none of us had it then and so none of us really worried about it. We just got by now. Some have and some don't. So there's a there's a consistent Squall among those who have no doubt about what's occurred. So those are probably that plus i think that the in terms of personal reflection at a time when we've been building a great number buildings. As a result of our state association, there hasn't been as much attention paid to the salaries and to the staff support to faculties or administrators, which creates a problem. To have a 45:00beautiful building that can't be maintained, beautiful office desk, but you don't have paper supplies to put in it does have created some some concern for some of us who were attended the UofL.

DC: So-- what about students? Have students changed since 1968. So you have that.

BH: Not now, but they went through a time when they were different when I when I first came in 68. In fact, probably from 68, to about 74, maybe 75. I always felt the students from pretty much the same. Even though we had the right to 60s, UK was down there storming the only real incident I remember here with the 46:00Blacks, and they occupied the president's office. But I just don't believe the students on this campus have ever really been militant. I don't believe that it really been involved. I think it's a commuter institution, and most exciting thing that happens in these kids lives, what happens in their own high schools. I go back home for the big game. What happens among your high school friends? Now that's changing a little, I believe in the students. I see I'm not going to make a general observation because I'm seeing athletes now rather than the general student body. And the athletes are not all from Jefferson County. Yeah, so we're, you know, it's they're not always as likely to go home and live in the city and ignore UofL as they used to be, I still feel the student bodies apathetic. And I believe that the average general student here is interested in 47:00four years and a job. Not in they're not here for quest of knowledge. They're not here because they're hungry to learn more, they're eager to learn. It sent them like we probably have some except from students like any campus. Overall, most of the kids they're worried about the dating on Saturday night. And who's the easiest professor? I don't think kids ever take to you that's probably other than the problem today are different than those 10 years ago when when I came 68-70 that kid said ready jobs, you know, they were prepared three, four years they want to have good jobs today, their degrees are almost bounced around, they're worried to death that they'll get any job much less a job that they've been trained for. And that's not just true teaching that's true everywhere. And I think that is I think that does create an apathetic student and why should you bust your butt when there's not going to be anything there anyway. course I 48:00guess that's a generation change to when my generation that one that immediately preceded me the last 10 years we always thought that even if you got the diploma you had to go out and track down the job. Today's kid kind of thinks that the plumber nearby is gonna come after them. It's

DC: What about--I guess even after you became women's athletic director of our we started view is the women's basketball coach. Talk about

BH: --basketball team.


DC: Talk about your team.

BH: Well, as I said, my my first experience here, I was the youngest woman in the department. Dr. Sue Hall, Dr. Lois Massie, Sherrill Brakmeier were the three here and I think any one of them is at least 15 years older than I am. So if you are a young woman, athlete, to find youth and your problem is exciting. It may be the same for men. I can't I don't know. But a young coach who had a great deal of energy that was made and the kids just anything I mentioned to them they were they just gobbled it up. So we started was typical for my basketball team to practice two days a week, Tuesdays and Thursdays, because women didn't sweat it remember all this and perspective was just the way it was in those days. And my kids and I, we decided, Well, that wasn't good enough, you 50:00know, we just couldn't learn in two days, what was necessary to be good basketball players. So we moved five days a week, which is unheard of, to some of my peers, my teaching peers, you know, they just started the system. It's an awful lot of work for those kids. So that was a real change, we went to five days a week, then we went from five days for an hour week to five days, two hours a week. Well, that was, I mean, you just were killing kids. Of course they were eating it up. So was I. We went from kind of an unorganized schedule to the fact that I sat down and I said, you know, we have all these schools around us, and we ought to play everyone at least one time, occasionally play them more 51:00than once if we can afford it. And so I began to make overtures to the other coaches in the state that and I would say that I was very, extremely involved, and one of the first women to get involved in what is called now the Kentucky Women's Intercollegiate Conference, which is the KWIC. I served as president commissioner of that conference. And all of this grew out of my coaching career. As far as coaching in those days. First of all, I volunteered my time. We didn't have uniforms, the kids wore probably blouses and gym shorts that they might have worn at UofL or everybody got together. One of the girls go out and buy one pair of shorts and when they are like that, so they buy them, we didn't have any money, our first couple of years, we drove our own cars. And we bought our own 52:00uniforms. This PE department provided us with a facility to play and the balls for those that Where did you play play right here. To practice here, we practice here we played and we practiced completely in this facility. So we--we h just given at it, we had scoring now, scoring time, you don't think anything bad unless you're a coach. But my score and timer, were just kids that I picked up that follow the game and I said I need a score timer for five home games, we do it for me and I trained them how to do it. And I said it a little table in the middle of the gym, we had 10 chairs on one side of the table and 10 chairs on the other side of the table. And that's what the typical game looked like downstairs 20 chairs and two teams running up and down the court and scoring timer at a hand. There was a clock that you turn by hands to know. But it had 53:00eight minutes 10 minutes and it went moved when the time was up. And we had a 32nd watch, stopwatch that we use to time two minute quarters, things like that, because when I was a coach, we played the six player game, we had four quarters. So when I said that women's basketball then were six players you had three on one side one of the court three offensive players and you had three defensive players. Additionally, two of those players you know remember basketball two of those players were rovers--which meant that one of the offensive players could play defense and one of the defensive players could play offense so you could 54:00end up with what's called an unbalanced court--4 and 2--and I was really an excellent coach at that particular game. I had a defense that we kind of invented, played around with and as a result since everybody played zones in those days nobody played player to player command and we were we were excited some women's coaches say player to player yeah we said player player now we still say man man but I think if you look at it you'll see young women say man-to-man or women my age say player-to-player and a great deal of it is from which you know which place you're coming from and it there's a woman a woman or never say woman the woman. Most young coaches not experienced the past. prejudices perhaps that we have. And so maybe they have other problems than we did. Anyway, we were exceptionally fortunate at the time because I had a group of freshmen and sophomores that that probably come along once or twice in the lifetime of a coach or a player and that their personalities and their skills 55:00are mixed together. In particular, the the one athlete that is outstanding of mine is Maureen "Reene" Wilkins. Reene is presently our assistant basketball coach at the university. Reene is probably one of the best shooting guards that ever lived in the state of Kentucky. And that's including today's fine athletes. She was just an exceptional shooting guard. She averaged 22 points a game and there's just very few ways to guard her, and again that was a game with the rover five player game today. She might have scored even more her high school games, she played in assumption High School. And the Catholic leagues at the 56:00time had good basketball programs and good sports programs for girls, private girls schools, they always have. Public schools, when I came to Jefferson County, were just beginning to get involved in girls basketball. So really was somewhat a product of that. That era that beginning and Dottie Galligan who's from Jeffersonville, Indiana, came to school here and Dottie really were just two settlement players. And I had met these two exceptionally fine players at a time when I was coaching. So we-I remember, the first time we played the University of Kentucky, which Louisville had been playing Kentucky for a long time, and women's basketball was very moderate level. And it meant more to me than anything in the world to beat my alma mater. And we did, it was the first timeLouisville had beaten UK, in probably its entire existence. So let's, I 57:00guess I'd set the tone for the future when you do things like that we

In 19- I'm not quite sure of the year, but probably 71. We switch to the five player game, which is the game the men play now. So my coaching went from the six player to the five player transition. And I have to admit, that's the worst year of my my coaching life. I was trying to teach athletes to play to ends of the court when they'd only known how to play one offensive or defensive. You were trying to adjust from eight players on one end, which is growing eight to 10 players. On one end. Girls had never been trained in any of the skills including myself of like, man to man garding techniques. For example, you take 58:00for granted the term don't give the baseline. You You probably grew up if you ever played basketball, somebody's teaching you that. Well as early as 1972. We had never heard of that as women. How do you deny the baseline? Or the fundamental of overplay, you know, keep the player just overplay that player they always go right to overplay the right force until the left you take those terms for granted. We just learned that the entire vocabulary in a year's time. Guarding techniques women and girls had never been taught how to properly guard any kind of footwork all we knew how to do was shoot rebound suit rebound it's all we've been told. So anyway, I remember we tried to learn the Auburn shuffle 59:00and the Auburn shuffle essentially is nothing but a give and go but I couldn't even the give and go concept is alien to women in basketball because they had never been taught those techniques because give and go is a technique of man to man. It's not a technique of the zone. It's really not you learn it man to man then you adapted to the zone. Having played zone all those years we we just did not know those kinds of techniques. overload we knew the overload principle. fastbreak you take for granted how to run a fast break. We have never been able to play a fast break because six player game you didn't play fast. There were always two defensive players down there when you got there. And even though you 60:00might go three on two, you must remember that, that a fast break is the defense is with the offense or even behind the offense. But in a six player game, you never had a true three-on-two, you always had two. And hopefully three, yeah. So we had to learn how to have an outlet pass, you take for granted outlet pass, we didn't know where an outlet pass was. Because the woman's game was very controlled zone game in which he brought the ball on

DC: the tape. You just said, you just the last thing you said I think was that in--in men's basketball that took the outlet pass for granted. Yeah, give an example.

BH: Because the outlet pass is the beginning of the fast break. Well, not ever having played a game that would permit the fast break, we never had to learn the outlet pass, you simply got the rebound, and then began to deliberate. Move down 61:00the court to outmaneuver your opponent. You know, women's games consist of basically of screening and shooting. In fact, if I remember, I'm not quite sure, Dwayne. But the six player game when I, the first year, I taught it at U of L coached at U of L, you even have a three dribble limit. So now when I played myself, as a player, we had three dribble three, dribble limit, and we had three and three, you were offensive or defensive. You never, you never, never even wrote when I was a player. And so I was always an offensive player, because I thought the only thought about game scoring, I would go down there and guard a body for 30 minutes or anything. That's why I'm saying women just never play the 62:00full court. Though today in Kentucky. Now, they may have elsewhere but not here. And so we really had to learn a whole new vocabulary since 1971, or 72. And if you ever have an opportunity to go look at a high school girls game now you have to marvel and how quickly women--or coaches of the women's girls and women's games have utilized all the knowledge that the male coaches had at their disposal for the past 20 to 30 years. And we learned most of what we've learned from them. When I was coaching, I recall that and most importantly, I did go to clinics, I remember once going to a big clinic in Michigan for Johnny Orr. And 63:00being surprised that I knew terms that he was using that in many of the women that I was sitting with, they themselves still were not familiar with the terms he was using because it's so hard to keep up and teach and everything is the reason I got out of coaching is to really to have been fair to the athletes here. I needed so much more training and knowledge that I felt like it would be better to bring somebody younger, who already had some of that rather than try and go back in myself. I mean if i had been a younger person i might have.

DC: We got a--what kind of coach were you, were you a main coach? We had a main coach when I--

BH: No, I would, I would say I probably don't really know how to be mean. And I would say that I was probably not terribly demanding in the sense that perhaps a Bobby Knight or Joe Hall, but I will say that I was I was the kind of coach that 64:00I had expectations. And I expected you to want to do if if for example, I recall one occasion that I sent my team out my starters out and now they were just terrible. They just it was just like they were going through one of their practices to slice and dice got pulled them all made them run what we call suicides to those back from the free throw line to mid-court. I call them suicides are all kinds of names. And I pulled them out of game on the side of Belknap gym and while I put my subs in my regulars were running suicides, which you never seen a man's game, obviously, but I was just so angry. That my expectations, and their--their attempts to excel are just so far apart. I, I was 65:00demanding of them, I always told them why do we practice 10 hours a week and go out and look like we never saw a basketball. But I was not mean in fact, as I look back now I would think that I should have been much more demanding than I was. My reason for not being terribly demanding is that I was working with a non scholarship athlete who chose to play who at a time when I was coaching was paying five times that tuition down at UK and some of them had part time jobs in order just to go to school. Well I just didn't feel like they could come into the gym five, five times a week and have me yell and scream at them all week long when they were there on a volunteer basis. it had to be enjoyable it would have been a waste of both of our times. By today's standards, you know with kids 66:00on full scholarship and knowing that they don't have part time jobs in the day I might be much more exacting than I was then.

DC: Describe a typical practice session.

BH: Oh, okay. Well lasts about two hours which, then, been the first 5-10 minutes and flexibility exercises try and stretch the muscles so that there wouldn't be any injuries and we probably go through 15 to 30 minutes of shooting drills. weaves, layups ball handling drills, passing the circle trying to treat teach them aggression, things of that nature keep away things like that. Then we'd spend the next 30 minutes probably in going through specific drills that were offensive in nature. In other words, they were part of our game plan. And 67:00if for example, we were going to work part of I had in a five-player game I had an established pattern. The wing passed to the corner cut through and then the forward in the corner shifted out so we always had an over--what's the word, we always had a...overbalance core. Always had three players on one side to the other hope that we can break most of the zones we played against overload. So we've practiced that pattern quite a while trying to execute the shots off that we can take them then for about 10 minutes we might work on special situation. For example jump ball or under the goal something nice and then we'd scrimmage, 15--20 minutes of the practice and when I was having an unusually bad time with 68:00the--because the problem with them was that I was working with myself limited knowledge of what even a practice was like. So you remember my--my experience as a player with very good coaches and limited knowledge and so I've never been through practice probably in like you have in my life. So I was structuring in a practice on what I thought was appropriate based on clinic observations and things of that nature and that time Yeah, I could have gone over and watched Denny, but I was teaching classes when he was when he was practicing so how did you go from one to three we had your own classes. I was working on limited 69:00knowledge and my players had no experience of practice because of the limited knowledge they're getting in in high schools. So we were found floating around float was right and and their whole concept practice was to go out and scrimmage. Now of course mine was no you can't screw me that to you know what it is you tried to do is we came into a lot of conflict because they'd get so tired doing the same drills over and over and over and over. And I did say, "But girls if you can't dribble, pass and shoot. Under these circumstances, it has to be habitized--You can't do it in a game." Well, today's player if you go over there you see a rare scrimmage very rare that that players scrimmage today. They will go through their pattern offenses, are the set of individual skills, isolated skills. And then they'll run two-on-three or three-on-three of their pattern offenses, but you just don't see them--all 10 of them out there running down to 70:00court play. But from my end--and they accept it, because they're used to it. They're used to that kind of practice setting. It prepares them for the game. They know for example, we're always to tap the ball because they practice it so many times it becomes reflex. My kids practice it, but at the same time, remember, they didn't have the playing experience. They hadn't played 20 games in high school. So just to get out there and play with what they loved, like street ball, they just wanted to go out there and mix it up. We had a lot of fights.

DC: What was your--what do you think was your greatest accomplishment or your most exciting moment as a as a coach?


BH: Well, I think there are two different things. My my greatest accomplishment was that in 72, or 71, I'm not sure the date. My team was invited to the National Invitational tournament in Culohwhee, North Carolina at Appalachian State, I'm not sure it's probably close.

Now, this was the forerunner of the National Collegiate Championships today. And because of our 10-1 or 10-2 record in the area, we got an invitation. We got to get on a bus and drive all the way North Carolina--a van, rather, stayed three or four days in a national tournament. For me, that was my greatest accomplishment. And at a time when women's basketball was just beginning to make a structure that would afford championship opportunities, we got an invitation. That's my greatest accomplishment. My greatest thrill was that, the year before 72:00that, we were playing the University of Kentucky in Lexington at Transylvania college. And at halftime, we were down 33 points. My sister, my mother was sitting in the stands, of course, it's four or five o'clock in the afternoon. Nobody else is around for family and friends. But we had always had pretty good games with UK. And while we may have more lost, we've never been so soundly defeated. And yet, in the next half, my team came back and won the ballgame. And it was one of those situations where my center would rebound on one end and be down shooting on the next end and everybody seemed as if they just pulled every available muscle together and said we are going to do it because I just gave him 73:00a scathing lecture in the locker room.

DC: What did you tell them?

BH: Well, I told them it was probably the most embarrassing moment I'd ever spent as a coach. You know, I realized that we might necessarily not win the game. But that it was outrageous to go out there and look like we've never even seen a basketball. And, and I just couldn't believe that we'd spent all these hours practicing all these games leading up to this and then to go out there in front of the most prestigious school in the state. And absolutely be humiliated. With that point, we were being humiliated. And the reason we were being humiliated, if I recall, was that everybody was so damn busy being the star, that we lost the concept of team game, but if you don't pull together can't win 74:00basketball. It's it's a complete team game. Anytime you become individually motivated and exclude your teammates, you're going to lose in the game of basketball. And you can't, you can't really care who scores. You can't really care who gets the most rebounds. You can't really care who has a bad game. You can't care about any of that. If you start isolating all those things, you lose the concept. And I don't know I probably told him if I didn't do a little bit better, I wouldn't be here, but I did say to them, I said "My sister's out there in the audience and she's never seen us play before." And I said, "I am embarrassed to death. Now you just get back out there and I and if you don't play better," and I probably said to them, "If you don't look better," I said, "you will run into you can't talk for the next six days." I'm sure God knows what else I said, because that could get very scathing at times. It's probably 75:00one of the few times when I cursed a great deal, which in those days and times, I think women didn't even cuss, so. Anyway, they must have listened because they came back and they did a magnificent job terribly. We won the ballgame. And the other coach was just standing around absolutely dumbfounded and shocked, because 33 points in a women's game is unheard of. At that time.

What about your What about your, your saddest moment, or the thing that you said that you feel like you failed at is that is that?

Well, it's basically remember, I told you, my greatest accomplishment was going to the national invitational. And I feel that was my greatest failure. That it was at that time that I realized that I lacked knowledge and know how, and the expertise to compete against the best. I mean, I could compete back home. But we 76:00weren't the best, we were only in this area, basketball was only average--it wasn't good. And when I went to the national invitational, I realized, for example, that my team could destroy any zone, we could bring anybody out of the zone. When they went player-to-player man-on-man on us suddenly, my limited knowledge of that game was costing my team the opportunity to win because we would be tough for one half. And then the second half, if we'd be blown away against the really good teams, because of the coaching, the coaching expertise, there was so much greater than I had, I felt, I felt that I failed. My athletes. I'm not saying that I knew it at the time, I just felt like that I had brought them to a point through hard work and love and concern, but not necessarily confidence. And then I failed them in not having the competence to prepare them 77:00for because they had one very one very, they got beat by the the champion, Westchester with a beat by 35 points, what's very humiliating in a national tournament to get beat by 35 points. Now I realize that that can happen to anybody. But then it really hurt me because I don't think I'm a real perfectionist. But I like to think that I've done all that I can to do the best possible job within my ability. And yet, if you look at the NCAA finals this year, you will have seen instances in which very good men's teams literally got beaten to pieces by a team like Indiana. See, I can look back and realize I didn't have that terrible failure. It wasn't necessarily just my coaching that 78:00limited us in playing but the skill level of my athletes probably was not comparable to the skill level. We weren't big, we weren't strong. And I had a bunch of Kentucky kids who didn't even have good strong movement fundamentals, much less sports skills, fundamentals. I was playing kids in Pennsylvania, five to six years of high school physical education. And so I thought that was a real disappointment. My real sadness in terms of being a basketball coach was losing Renne. So the one player who to me epitomize the very best of the athlete. She was such a determined athlete who was willing to take on anything in order to accomplish she was she's the kind of kid if you get her now she'd be an 79:00all-American on your on your college team. Because there's no amount of work you could give her, there was no amount of expectations, you can ask of her that she wasn't already demanding of herself. And she was one of those. One of those students or one of the people who expected it from herself but brought out the best in her peers, a lot of kids today and some even that I coached, there were a lot of great athletes skill wise, but their leadership was negative rather than positive. In other words, sometimes, you know if you've ever coached between an athlete and a coach there's they're only to meet two conditions. I'm with you or I'm against you know, it's It's my skill and my talent. So that together we do this, or my skill, my talent because we're in competition. And it's perfectly natural situation. Most really good athletes that I worked with 80:00were in competition to prove their superiority with their peers, or to show me that they they knew as much as I did. I mean, I think that's the competitive nature of the athlete a lot of times. But then you get a kid like Renne who says, "I'm this good. And you have this, I have this together, let's make it." So really, when I lost her I lost a real--"

DC: when you lost her, do you she just graduated.

BH: Last game. The last game was a very sad one, because it was the end of that four years in which we had done so well--athletically. And the next two years, were a little bit--I think I coached six years here. The next two years, we did, in fact, lose more ballgames. And you know, I just never had quite the teams that are here with her. I'm sure Denny's got the same concerns, you know, something's his championship team, and there'll never be another one like it. 81:00That's probably somewhere.In his, his mind, there's that athlete that makes difference? It could be Darryl, but it could be somebody else. But somebody made that team unique to him. And Renne made that team unique to me.

DC: What about changes? You talked about how I thought that was fascinating about how the difference in the style, the rules changed, and how have you had to adapt to that? What about you talk some about the, the uniforms and how people drove their own cars and, and things when you first started did did that change or?


BH: Oh yes, in fact today, I just the best I can describe it is--I'll make a comparison and say 70 or 72? Maybe 72 because that's before I became the athletic director as a coach. We went to the national Invitational in North Carolina. And uniforms that had been purchased for us--Dr. Sue Hall, she gave them to us. And in fact, she wouldn't even let me tell the players because she was afraid she would be embarrassed by having given them a gift. I don't know why. But maybe it's because in her heart, she never approved varsity athletics. And the concept of varsity versus everybody gets to play. We went in a van. We we stayed in a dorm. The school there put us up in dorms. We ate the school cafeterias except one time when once or twice we ate on the road and in a restaurant. And I can remember many times in a restaurant where it'd be so many 83:00of us that we'd go in help the cooks. I mean, I had to get a couple of my girls to act as waitresses, while the cooks prepared for us. We usually ate at McDonald's or someplace of comparable subsidiaries. I didn't have a manager, except somebody I could scrounge up that would do it for me as a volunteer. None of my kids were on scholarship, many of them haddd part time jobs and had to work around the part time jobs to even go on this trip. Almost all of us had nearly beg their professors to let us out of classes so we can go down and play. Missing three days wouldn't be the end of the lifetime in the class. Our send off, Miss Strickler came down and said goodbye to us in the van. PE--people in 84:00thee PE department came down and said goodbye to us and wish us good luck. We had maybe an article in the women's section of the newspaper indicating that we had arrived at this point we're going not in the sports section in the women's section. If you compare that today, last year, this past year, I went with the basketball team to our Metro conference tournament. We had the girls bused to the airport--university vans, they get in an airplane and they fly to New Orleans to Tulane, to play in a tournament of comparable nature. They have flight bags that are made of all this beautiful synthetic leather--probably cost $80-100. They are housed in the Marriott Inn in Tulane, of course we get special prices but nevertheless we're right next to the French Quarter. So we stay there 85:00three to four days and while we don't meet probably at Jerry's and things of that nature, we, you know, we were at decent restaurants. They walk out on the floor with warmups-- a set of warm ups, a red uniform and white uniform shoes purchased by the department. There were three coaches on the bench--a full time coach, who made a good salary, a full time assistant coach, which paid a good salary, and a part time assistant coaches probably close to graduate assistant, two managers on tuition. 12 kids on scholarship--full scholarship: room, board, tuition. They go up to the table to get a watch, because they won the tournament that costs $150. And that's the difference in basketball between now and 86:00probably just ten years ago, yeah.

DC: How do you account for that?

Well, a lot of people, I would say, this revolution of the 60s in the sense the social, the social changes, the feminist movement, the Black movement, all the things that that have kind of contributed to an awakening of opportunity for women. Is this the basic, you know, cause? And then I'd say I have to be part of that basic cause, because I will assure you that you never get anything without asking. If somebody isn't there demanding. It doesn't occur. No one offered us. 87:00No one says, "Well, Becky, what can we do for you. Just tell us what you want, we'll supply it," it's been a long process of saying, "We're at this level. We need this much more resources to get at this level." And then more more and more and every year myself. Basically myself, because I'm probably the only administrator in Athletics--at this point, who has any a real concern for women, we've had, you know, a lot of males in the primarily into football and basketball. So I would have to say that the feminist calls the Black calls, the social enlightenment, of the 60s has certainly helped my own pushing. And of course, that phenomena that in the high schools itself has created the push 88:00college, because at the time, there was an awakening here, there was an awakening in the public schools that little girls have should have the same opportunity for boys. Well, when I those little girls get to be 18. And they get out here, they're not interested and say, well, we, you know, we had jackets in high school, we don't get jackets here. [inaudible].

How did you how'd you go back that?

BH: Well, I think one thing and I forgot the most probably the most important thing that ever happened that created that and that was the Title IX Educational Amendments Act 1972, demanded equal opportunity for women in Athletics. Obviously, we're still not there. But it had its impact. Essentially, that's, that's where that's where I said nothing came about as a result of as a result 89:00of somebody saying, "What do you want," giving it but a whole series of things that happen historically, for example, scholarships came as the result of a potential suit from one of our student athletes. Her name was Barbara Bates in about 1974--about '74--we had a gymnastics coach here and named Sharon Cooper. The time I was a coordinator in the PE department for athletics that meant that they took my intramural responsibility away. Instead, okay Becky, handle Athletics because it's growing everywhere all the other schools. Some of the older coaches like Lois Hall--Lois Massie, Sue Hall, Sherrill Brakmeier, are reaching a point where they can no longer meet the demands of the kids, their 90:00their talents, and their skill levels are greater than ours. And the time demands that they want from us were unable to give. So I became a coordinator and relinquished my intramural activities. So I was still in the PE department. I had five or six sports I was coordinating with simply meant that I have to get the transportation request, and I have done my contact at the schools and these kinds of things.

At that time, at one of two of the meets, not third in the state, not third in the South, third in the nation, I mean, a gymnast at the UofL campus finished third in the nation. At that time, we probably had the Corso wasn't here, I think somebody else was here as a football coach. Denny hadn't won a national 91:00title, although, doing a very adequate job. And we had 60-70 men athletes on male football players on scholarship, 15 male basketball players on scholarship, and perhaps a few swimmers here, there and beyond. And not one woman on scholarship. And Sharon Cooper, who's our gymnastics contestant was a lawyer, a young attorney. And time like I said, the 60s began to bear fruit. And they came to me and they said, "What should we do we want a scholarship?" I said, "We don't get scholarships, what should we do?" And I said, "the only thing I can counsel you is to write a letter to me requesting one. And then if I don't request one, I suggest, you know, in a sense--I didn't actually say do this, but I said if that doesn't work, I guess, I suggest you might consider legal action." And I I have no, that was my counsel. That was not my directive. As an administrator, I was not in any way shape, or form going to say "sue the university," but I did say you could try that. She did. She applied for a 92:00scholarship. She was told by me, as the coordinator at the time, scholarships were not available for female athletes. So she wrote a letter to the legal officers, I guess, the institution at the time, making the same demand and then if search was not forthcoming, you know, that I might have filed for a scholarship.

DC: Now was this before or after Title IX?

This is after Title IX, okay. We hadn't really gotten into any kind of Title IX situation here. Remember, it was just on the books and '72, it wouldn't become law until '75. And this is about '73-'74. At this time, Louisville is still all 93:00in the process of the state situation. Athletics has never been a terrible concern at his university probably never will be. Dave Hart was the athletic director. Dave was very busy, I think trying to just get the men's football program in some kind of stable position. I said John Dromo was still here. So we really hadn't done a whole lot in Athletics, even other than the past traditions at school. Well, as I said, at that time, I was a coordinator and I was addressing all my mail to inquiring students that scholarships were not available. And I picked up the newspaper one day. And I read where Jeff Johnson had given a couple of swimming scholarships to a couple of girls. Now Jeff's program was was a men's program, and they told him he could male or female, he could give scholarships. So Jeff was given two scholarships to women. But I'm the women's coordinator, we didn't have a women's swim team. I just became incensed enraged--outraged. Because the same time Jeff was given these to the 94:00university, Legal Affairs Office or somebody in the university, and I've got it someplace, decided to give Barbara her scholarship. So here I am coordinating a program. And the law office is given a scholarship and men's swimming team is given a scholarship. But I'm sitting here with a whole bunch of responsibilities named the woman's coordinator, and I've been telling everybody we don't have scholarships. Well, as I said I was outraged. And I wrote a letter addressed it to the Board of Trustees president everybody else there. "What the hell is going on? You know, either you have a women's program and a coordinator or you don't. If this department's going to do this, this department is gonna do that. Why do I, why am I, you know, being asked to coordinate it." And as a result--a direct 95:00results of that letter, I was named the assistant athletic director. The position was created. So it really both instances, Barbara's potential lawsuit and my chagrin and anger and this sloppiness regarding women's athletics led to the creation of the women's athletic program be placed in the athletic department. So you went out of PE.

BH: My appointment that year became as a halftime athletic director. I retained teaching responsibilities and dropped the coaching responsibilities at that time. So, I guess that was the beginning of the whole thing. We--Dave and I sat down and with our limited knowledge of Title IX at the time, and believe me, it was very limited. Mainly because I think UofL was into the throes of, of the 96:00state, you know, many of the other state schools like Eastern and Murray and Western and everybody was very far ahead of us in terms of their planning. But they weren't fighting this other battle of state monies and absorbtion the state. So administratively. I think I've always forgiven the university for that kind of lack of attention. Because I do think that was the priority is to get the institution into the state and then worry about the departments within the institution. Dave and I began to plan a Title IX--we had a Title IX plan, and Clark Wood and I and Ellis we're all trying to find out where women belonged in the total structure. And we did some fair planning, we did a 10 year project. But you know, at the time doing anything you did 10 years ago, you can't imagine 97:00how quickly it changed any, any amount that you could have said you needed 10 years ago, you could not have projected to this day. I mean, things happen so fast. And the growth in women's athletics has been so phenomenal that any dreams we had 10 years ago we've already far surpassed our expectations. But that was a start. We offered. I think I was the first female administrator in Athletics in the state. In the Athletic Department as Sue Feamster at UK was the first female administrator in athletics, but she was in the Intramural Department at UK. And I was in Athletics. We offered the first scholarships in the state, which was Barbara. But now, any kind of result--the planning that came as a result of assistance, not foresight--well, maybe foresight avoided the attack, you know, 98:00it avoided legal involvement. And the thing is--like I said, we didn't do a lot of planning. The other regional schools did a better job of planning, they--they were late, maybe bringing their scholarships, they brought a very good planned program. We brought in the first ones, but we didn't really have--you know--a good plan. At least I didn't think we did. Partially because the Athletic department at this university has such little influence--there really is no influence there...there's no--well, my feeling about it is that this campus basically feels that Athletics is an unnecessary expense of the institution.


And i feel it's been that way ever since I've been a part of it. What they do is they they give the athletic directors over there enough money to get by but they don't really--it's not really a priority liike it is on some campuses. So we're our planning was limited a little because you're trying to build football, you're trying to build basketball and was left over for women. So this was what we got. Each year. I plugged away with each one of those athletic directors and Dr. Howard Homan came, I think 77--maybe '78 and Howard for, for maybe all the problems he might have had as administrator--being a good administrator--he was a good planner. And he and I were able to give a new plan to the university, 100:00which they accepted, which prepared us for the growth we have today. The Board of Trustees did make, you know, financial allocations for women specifically for women to assist in growth. As I said, the only problem with that is that their allocations are still behind because those projected funds might have sounded like a lot of money when they were first allocated and first approved. But with today's economy and inflation and everything else, they become somewhat limited. You say, "well, we give you $100,000. Well, $100,000 three years from now--might--the same $100,000 to be--to match inflation, might you might need $250,000? I don't really know. That's what happened here, but still from '75 to--'81, from a zero budget--'74--from no money to a half million dollars is still good. And that's the reason for the progress.


The basic planning has taken place, within the Athletic department, it's not necessarily been the university, but it has been the Athletic administrators that I have worked for. And it is through them that we have reached this point.

DC: So far, what you what you just said is--is--I guess if we stopped here, it's kind of glowing it's it's it's a progress report, and it's progress underlined. And you a year or so ago, I don't remember the date that you you filed a complaint or I don't know exactly what you call it the terminology--


BH: I filed a complaint with the Office of Civil Rights.

Talk about that talk about?

Alright.I think that you said it correctly, it is a progress report, there has been significant progress. And I'vd never--in any of any of the times that I've discussed our needs ever diminished that contribution by the university. The reason I have filed the complaint is that while there has been an increase in opportunity, there still is not available to the female athlete on this on this campus equity in opportunity. That has come about probably as a result of the fact that the athletic directors or their superiors or whatever, whoever makes budgetary controls, has still not put sufficient funds and resources into the women's program to bring them to a comparable state of competition with men's football and basketball. Now, that could be only achieved in two ways. One, you put more money into the women's program that's presently budgeted. New money by 103:00the university or, two, you take it from the men's budget to give to the women. You either have to create the money or slice off, you know the big pies and give it to the little, little ones. It's my feeling that the commitment that the institution made to us several years ago was made in good faith. And it was a really strong progress. But the figures that they are holding us t--the financial resources that they are binding us to were were requests made three years ago, and they do not accommodate inflation. And they do not accommodate the rapid growth and and the competitive arena that is [inaudible] with. A 104:00perfect example: the state of Florida made a million dollar appropriation to each of its state schools--to its women's athletic programs to accommodate the Title IX a million dollars per institution in state. The state of Kentucky has done nothing the state of Kentucky has said to the institution's: "take it out of your own budgets." And I'm saying well if the institution doesn't have new monies, if they can't raise new monies, then they have to take it out of all budgets and they've not been willing to do so. They've not raised either new monies or taken it out of present programming to to facilitate equity. And when I say equity, let me back up a little, we're not that far from it. But the point is with the present budget crisis, with no relief it whatever gains we've made, we're gonna lose. That's what that's what's disturbing me is that where we are, we're going to lose from the present budget crunch. I guess I can only say this. 105:00I always use this as an example: if you have a whole pie, and 50% of the pie is your share. And two other people share the quarter. And then somebody comes along and says, Now everybody has to be reduced. And you're all the same way the same hunger demands. And you all have, the same appetites, that's your share. And then somebody comes along and says, "Well, we got to take 10% of your share." The 50% shareholder is not going to be nearly as hungry, as the 25% shareholders who just lost 10% 10% of a small budget is far worse than 10%, among very large places. And that's what's happening to women's athletics. We 106:00have reached a point and with our new athletic director, where we are being told, "We are going to cut your budget the same as we're going to cut men's revenue sports. We don't have any waste. If anything, our programs are presently existing on minimal, or less than optimal monies now and then to take 10% away from it, is to destroy any of the growth that's taking place as compared to some of our other programs or revenue programs that I still feel have places where they could cut as much as 20-30%

DC: There was--let me see how this--the issue that you filed with the with the federal government about Title IX. Now. Does that still under? Is that still under consideration?


BH: Yes--it still on file with the Office of Civil Rights and there to my my understanding, I just heard about this today, there has been a on campus review, my complaint is taken place now with Dr. Larry Fielding in the PE department. And that that review has been placed in the hands of the committee to study the complaint from the council--the athletic counsel.

DC: Was that your decision to do that? Was it the result of I guess, probably there's both but it was it the result of a series of things that you saw happening?

BH: Yes. It was a result of a series. And I guess these things, I assume are here for--because I feel some of this stuff is information I don't want to be public with.


DC: I was gonna say while ago that, that there's a legal release on this that you can place a time restriction on. And I would I don't like to place time restrictions on them. But I would rather do that than lose the information. And if you if you want to. I would rather do that than lose information.

BH: Well, if I don't have to name names, I don't think there's anything in there that bothers me. I just don't want to use names.You want names?

DC: I'd rather you name names and put a restriction on it.

BH: Then I'd prefer to do that because I really don't go. Okay. Okay. Because from this point on, when we are discussing names, I feel that I may be jeopardizing my own career in higher education.

DC: Okay. There's a I've got a there's a legal release form right here. And it 109:00has a place for restrictions.

BH: Okay, and how would I make the restriction on this particular conversation? I just want the restriction on Title IX.

DC: You could say I think that it would be a reasonable restriction to say that, whiles this particular--while this particular--I don't know whether it's a suit or not, but while this particular complaint is pending, that this is restricted, or you could say for 10 years, presumably--

BH: I'd say, presumably 10 years, because I'm still in the employment market in 10 years.



BH: And I'm not sure that some student getting gaining this could not--

DC: OK, we'll say 10 years and--

BH: I said to you may not be particularly damaging to somebody else but it could be me. The individuals I talk about might choose to use it against me, who knew that I even said anything. That's why I haven't talked much to the newspapers. Yes, I know what else [inaudible]

As I said with with Dr. Homan--about four or five years ago--maybe four, the entire Athletic department went through a process called a three year PCU report. I think the entire university did this. And I know the athletic department, and in that, every department, or every sport. And the athletic department made a three year projection of goals, objectives, and objectives and resources necessary to accomplish those goals and objectives. Behavioral 111:00objectives, exercise

DC: Yeah, we did one of those...

BH: This report was done by myself and with Dr. Homan and with my coaches and everything else and then stamped approved by the planning departments of the university. I always felt that with both Dr. Horman and Jack Lengle who was his assistant and Dave Hardy, that progress was being made because the money's coming from the board was still being added to our program every year. This past year, the administration, the university administration, hired a new athletic director. That decision to hire that athletic director was one that I felt jeopardized the athletic program at University of Louisville. Mr. Olson is a 112:00fine human being I I'm not into a personal situation. He was--aaand this is not common knowledge. But he was not the choice of the Athletic Council. Their choice in the matter--the overwhelming choice of the Athletic Council was denied by Dr. Miller.

The the appointment of Bill that I felt from all my inside knowledge administration was a political move made to appease Denny Crum, who was looking to help his assistant acquire a position as an assistant basketball coach. Obviously, I think that that Bill wanted the athletic director's job because he 113:00saw that as you know, move up --an opportunity to stay in this community and I applaud him for that--we all did. I'm sure that Denny's decision to assist his assistant was something that I would do for my assistant, and I have a great deal of confidence in. However, I felt that those kinds of decisions are not the decisions by which universities plan their futures. Mr. Olson might be a very fine fellow, but he has no athletic administration experience. He had never even been a head coach. And not once in any of the proceedings, was any--anyone in the athletic department asked to interview any of the athletic candidates, the candidates. So in a sense, the athletic department was being told, "We just 114:00don't care about the people who work over there. This is going to be an administrative appointment, political appointment.

And that was done.

To me that's very frightening. Particularly when the President has the--you know, the advice of counsel--adamantly opposed to the selection, and Board of Trustee members, you know, who were also--also opposed the selection, and yet it was made in order to satisfy a personal and in house move up. And couple that with the budget crisis and the administrative style of Bill I found that the women's program was in jeopardy unless something was done to preserve the gains that have been made. When I say that I said, I already explained that situation that when you don't have a lot, and then you start taking from it, you're far 115:00greater jeopardy than those programs that have, from which to cut. That was the number one concern I had for my program. And when I went over to say, "We barely have enough to get by now," the response from Bill was, "That's tough. Everybody gets their cut, everybody takes it off." The other thing is that in a variety of conversations with Bill, it became become very apparent that he and I have a very personal problem--communication. It is a very difficult thing to say. But I believe that Bill has a very narrow view of women in athletics and athletic perspective, he is an excellent basketball coach. He's lived his entire life in the arena of revenue sports. He has no concept really of modern changes that are 116:00taking place in the world of athletics. It doesn't even take very knowledgeable person to know that everywhere there's growth and acceleration and in women's athletics, and it is being pursued vigorously by men who direct programs. And yet, Bill...Bill just doesn't have that perspective. To him, the only thing that counts are football and besketball and revenue sports. As I said it's an archaic idea, I think. That's the big trouble with it. Some of the plans that had been made several years ago to add full time personnel--within the budget restraints that I had, in other words, I had X number of dollars--but to reach those goals, 117:00I would say, "No, you have that money, but you can't use it for that purpose." So already, the plans that we've made for the last three or four years are suddenly--we're being told, "Even if you have the money, I won't approve that." So I'm into an administrative style where our planning--or planning is suddenly changing directions. Even if the money is there, it can't be utilized, because Bill's concept of what the future is going to be is going to be quite different from many I've worked with before. So I guess you would just say that I looked around and I said "Well, okay, I guess I'm being a little personal but I've worked pretty hard, this damn thing. We've been at it for 10 years. And I think I have the pulse of the athletic community, not just here, but everywhere." And all of a sudden, I've got a very young and inexperienced administrator telling 118:00me that, that these are, these plans can't fit--I don't even listen to them, they just can't do it. Plus, a very personal opinion that I am working with a very chauvinistic individual, in a true sense of chauvinism: you just don't have women, they that are just not important. And, you know, what you do is you, you give them their tokens, and you send them on their way. And that's it. It was very severe, but they're--that's what happened to me. And I thought about it a great deal of time, and I thought, "Well, you know, I made the budget cuts, and I did the kinds of things that are necessary because that's what I'm supposed to do." But then I began to realize that my program, might, in time, have no 119:00cheerleader. You know, if you don't have a cheerleader, if you don't have somebody in the position of influence, who's supporting you, eventually your programs will die.

DC: Had you felt like you had a cheerleader before?

BH: I felt like I had had cheerleaders--

DC: Who were some of your cheerleaders?

BH: Howard--you know, I mean maybe he was a poor organizer, but he was a cheerleader. He felt that there there was a place for women's athletics and that strong women's athletic programs--or non revenue programs were just as essential to a good university is a good football team. Jack Mengel who was the assistant AD, was very supportive of what we were trying to do. You know, he actually--they--these people actually went out to a woman's game to see what was going on. They were the first people who actually brought me into the room and said, "Becky, we're, we're planning something. What do you think?" I mean, 120:00before you just told what to do. All of a sudden, I'm getting back to the same administrative style that says, "Well, here's what we're going to do, you carry it out." So yeah, and when you lose that kind of event, put those that kind of feeling that you have somebody that's not your impressions and your opinions, even if they turn him down. administratively, you begin to realize that you will not be successful, and I would not be successful under this present administration because my experience, my confidence, my know how and even the plans that I've gone through three, four bosses. Anyway, the continuity of department is something's no longer being listened to.

Someone else is making decisions.