Interview with Bob Burrus, May 4, 1989

Teka Ward: Today is May 4th, 1989. My name is Teka Ward. I'm with Bob Burrus. We are at 1330 South Sixth Street, Louisville, Kentucky. Our topic is Actors Theatre of Louisville. Bob, you have been a resident, a member of the Resident Acting Company of Actors Theatre on and off since 1974.

Bob Burrus: Yes.

TW: And when you were here in 74, you were here for five years, then you left for six years, and then you returned in 1983.

BB: Which see I yes. Be five or six years. I guess it would be six years I was gone. Yeah.

TW: And then you came back. But before we do any of this, tell just a little bit about your background, how you became interested in acting.

BB: Sure. I was born and raised in Oklahoma and two or three of my aunts were speech teachers. I come from a very large family and I was very shy as a child and my mother encouraged me to go into, I think it was, see, what was it called, the Mary Gray Thompson School of Speech when I was about in the second or third grade to get over my shyness. And when I was there I just developed a love for it. And then I continued through junior high and high school. And then in fact, I'm doing exactly what I wanted to do ever since I was about seven or eight. And my mom just started me for those reasons. I was very, very shy, quite the mama's boy.

TW: Did you act in school plays?

BB: Yes. Junior high, high school, all of them. And I was never a very good student. It was a nightmare for my parents and for me. But surprisingly, I got a couple of scholarships of which I promptly lost starting the school. And I went to the Goodman Theatre and did my apprenticeship for about a year. I was kicked out.

TW: You mean right out of high school?

BB: Actually, it was one year out of high school because my little girlfriend I was with, we both won scholarships to Oklahoma City University, which is primarily a music school, still is. And I stayed for one year, but as usual, you know how that always goes. She was all the beauty queens, freshman, queen, all that. So Ally, I got cut out by the upperclassmen and 25 years later though she became my second wife for a brief time. But we learned we'd gone in different directions, but so it's all a crazy now it's fun to talk about. I'm sure it was very more traumatic than I give out at the time. But then I left and went to the Goodman Theatre the following year and promptly got kicked out about, oh, halfway through the spring semester.

TW: Where is the Goodman

BB: Theatre? It's in Chicago and it's now a LORT Theatre. And the school at that time was titled at the University of Chicago, and I think now it's connected with DePaul University. And I didn't want my parents to find out. Went to New York and bummed around for about 10 days and got on a little touring show, a children's show out of New York and got stranded in Paynesville, Ohio, which still remains one of my favorite little towns. It's about 15 or 16 miles out of Cleveland going north. And I called my father and let him know what had happened to me and said, can I have money to come home? He said, I'm going to do better than that. I'm going to get you a job. And I spent about five days in Paynesville, Ohio, laying sewer pipe in slacks in a T-shirt and sweater and slept in the back of a plumbing shop. And then I got my train ticket home where I went back and finished out. Actually didn't finish out, just took all the drama courses and then left Oklahoma City University and then started my career about 1963.

TW: So you were an apprentice in the Goodman

BB: Yeah. Apprentice student. You started out combined the two. At that time you did all the apprenticeship work, but you actually were working on an undergraduate degree from the University of Chicago, but at that time they had what they called apprenticeship cards. And you could literally, if you got hooked onto a player, something that was an equity play, you could get an apprenticeship card. And I got one in 19, this would be 1957 or 58, I can't remember back, but there was a touring company, The Crucible coming through Chicago, and they wanted some students just to fill in the courtroom scenes at the end when they having all the thing with the witches and stuff. And that's how I got this apprentice card. And then you didn't have to work or anything as long as you paid your dues out, paid up and get your initiation. Then they gave you a junior member's card, which was a blue card. And then if you kept paying your dues every year, some magically you got the white equity card. They don't do that anymore. It's harder now. I'm one of the last of the Blue Carders. So

TW: What was the first thing that you did after you left?

BB: And my first really professional production was Oklahoma, which I love my state and I love being from it, but I hate the musical Oklahoma. But all we've got there is our football team teams and the musical Oklahoma. So that was the first really professional production that I just really went into. And then I did the typical things that young actor did at the time. I went to New York for a while and bummed around and you'd list your Broadway shows that you'd rehearse for six weeks and close in two nights and that stuff. And then gradually I came on back and it was surprisingly in that part of the country though, you were really having an innovation.

I grew up with really good theater. Surprisingly enough, the Dallas Theater Center had gotten started at that time with Paul Baker, which is now one of your top LORT Theatres. The Alley Theatre had been going on for a long time with nine events. But also too, what a lot of people forget is that we really, Margo Jones Dallas was some of the first producers of Tennesee Williams plays, certainly the Glass Menagerie and Inherit the Wind. A lot of those plays started in that part of the country. And I started with the Dallas Theater Center in 1964, I believe. And you had a lot of people that were later to become pretty famous people in this business, certainly in the area of playwriting like Preston Jones, the Texas Trilogy, old friend of mine, Edward Herman, wonderful actor now that you see in Broadway, film, quite a respected American actor.

Golly, it's hard to list all the names. Michael O'Sullivan came to, did a lot of shows, several shows at Dallas. He was the first Tempest that I ever did was with Michael O'Sullivan's Prospero, and he was wonderful. He was an actor that was really the cream of the crop at that time who committed suicide rather early. He was from ACT in San Francisco really. But he got a big start on Broadway. And then I started the film production was starting a lot in Dallas and I was making rather a pretty good living, but I was also beginning to have a problem with booze and drugs, things like this. And literally destroyed my first career, which had been going pretty well. In fact, I was on my way to, I had a wonderful audition with Frank Cosaro, who was a wonderful director producer in New York, and I was up for a part.

The way I understand it, it was so long ago, I can't remember, and I was so phased out that my oldest and closest friend who I grew up with in Oklahoma City, who had quite a lucrative career in New York at the time as a director of New York City Opera, he and Frank Cosaro were partners. I mean not partners, but they both worked together a lot there. And Carv got me an audition with him in one of his classes, and I did a scene from The Birthday Party, which I had done in Dallas, which I think was the second or third American production at that time. And he asked about me and wanted me to come and audition. I think they had me in mind for, I think what it was was a new play that Paul Newman and Joanne Woodward were going to do at the time.

And I don't remember, it wasn't in New York, but it was upstate and I never made it. I ended up in the psycho ward in Mount Sinai Hospital, and I totally just lost it and made myself unemployable. And the first man who fired me was my oldest and closest friend, and he said, I love you. But he said he had tried to get me back to work after I got out of the hospital in New York and I had gone, he had hired me to do a summer musical review in San Antonio, and I just couldn't cut it. And he said, I've got to let you go.

But he was also the man who got me back into it when I straightened myself out. And he remains to this day, my oldest and closest friend and still probably the most overall talented man in the business that I know. And he's everything from my children's trustee and godfather to, he's more my brother than my brother, really. I mean, that's how close we are. Carv got me started and back, and so by 73 or four I was back. I got myself straightened out and had remained straightened out. So far, for now, what, 21 years. And I was working, Carv was co-producing at the Brunswick Music Theatre. And there was a wonderful man up there that was a stage manager who you probably know Frank Wicks, who still handles a lot of things for Jon when Jon can get him. And Trish Pugh, who you probably remember, who was the associate producer here in 74, she came up to Maine to just vacation and stayed with Frank and his wife, Sukanya.

And she saw me in a production of Camelot, I think, and recommended me to Jon. And I really at that point, even though I'd started in regionals, I really didn't think of the regionals in those terms. I was doing a lot of musical comedy and things like that. And so that brought me to, she said, would you like to audition for Jon Jory at the Actors Theatre of Louisville? And I didn't even know they had a theater in Louisville, but I knew they had a racetrack. And I thought, well, that sounds pretty good. And Jon still laughs because I had this audition with him in New York and we were in fact laughing about it the other day. And I'd been doing a lot of musical comedy audition and stuff, and I just come from one, I came in with this white suit, with this blue turtleneck white boots, I mean, just rocking in and I'm sure, and Jon said, he said, I couldn't believe it.

He said, I don't remember if you were any good or not, but I said, I had to find out about this. And I thought I just liked him. And he invited me first. He offered me a job to do one play. And I think the way I actually got the job was David Canary, who was a wonderful actor, was originally scheduled to do this slot. And something happened, and I think Jon was just looking for another actor to fill this part, but then he asked me if I might like to stay, and something told me to say yes, even though at that point, the salary that he was offering me compared to what I had been making wasn't up. And at this time, I was living in Maine and had an apartment in New York and my family, and it was quite expensive, but I thought I'd really be a fool not to take on the offer. And I just had a feeling that I was 30 by this time, what? 34, 35. And I was at that point in my life where I love my craft, and I realized that I was probably pretty mediocre in it.

And Jon Jory took a lot of chances with me and allowed me to work. But I began working with, really, I'm talking about professionals and attitude, the whole process. I was exposed to so many good people that first year, much more talented, naturally and gifted than I am. I'm talking about people like John Pielmeier, well of course, Ray Fry, Victor Jory, Jean Ennis, Vaughn McBride, Dale O'Brien. I mean, I was working with really top notch professionals. And what Jon taught me was number one was what we do here is put on plays. That's our job. And he never said a word to me, but it was made clear that I was not good enough yet for him to handle responsible parts, but that he liked me and he thought there was something there. And I was old enough not to be afraid. I mean, I could have been doing major parts.

I worked myself up to that and a lot of musical comedies doing parts that I had done over and over and over and making certainly more money. But I was at the point where I wanted to get better and I really saw how much I wasn't, and I was old enough not to be afraid anymore. You know what I mean? You've had enough success, enough phase, you get to assert. Anybody does that in any career where you ask questions. I was talking with some of the kids, the other, they were laughing. I'm saying, you guys, you're at that stage in your lives where you're going to nod yes when you really don't know because you don't want to look like a fool. The beginning of wisdom is when you don't care anymore. You just want to know the answers. And if the question is stupid, so be it.

I don't care. I want to know. And I was at that point, and gradually through the years, I began to get better. And then learning from all these wonderful people. And then that day to day, Jon Jory is, the failures are allowed as long as the effort's made. But when you go into that theater to work, and you're handled kindly, you know what I mean? But you know who's in charge and a quality has to be sustained or attempted, and we've had our flops, no doubt, but we better dive in and go for it. And that's put this theater and made it one of the most respected in the country is this kind. Because Jon was raised in that atmosphere of working actors. He saw the best all of his life, and that's what's made him such a wonderful producer. He loves actors number one, but also he loves to put on good plays.

That's what he likes to do. He likes to tell good stories. And you better be willing to tell the best story you can. You better be willing to commit as much as he does, or it is never done cruelly, but you're going to be on your way out. And sometimes, and I mean, he's called me in. I mean, when you say step into my office, it's never done in a mean way, but I've gotten it where I know it's a joking thing or a laughing thing, but also know when, and yet he's the first one to be proud of you when you do well. And that actually, I know it sounds strange, but that's comfortable for me because I was raised that way all my life. My father was a business agent for the plumbers and pipe fitters. My brother is one of the top mechanical contractors in the state of Oklahoma.

Construction workers like I'm a licensed plumber, pipe fitter. But my father, he forced my brother and I at a young age to learn how to work. Well we're more transient than actors, you know what I mean? They're always, when the job is finished, you're always looking for jobs. So that kind of thing has always been comfortable. Rejections don't bother me one bit. You see, I mean, my father totally. I have no fear about those things. I love auditioning. As a matter of fact. It's just a way to work out the problems. If you keep getting nos, then find out why. So you get a yes. And then of course, too, coming here and then going back to New York in a hit show, which was wonderful for all of us Getting Out. And you see, that was where Jon really kicked this theater off. But I also think it helped kick off the regional theater movement really to really get it started. I mean, Jon Jory will go down my, and I don't think I'm prejudice, I think it's just he's going to go down as one of the top producers in the country, one of the real fountain heads of several things. And it's hard for us to realize what we are. I didn't realize any of this until you leave really, when you're working on a day-to-Day basis. And he certainly is certainly unassuming about it. He doesn't even think about it in those terms. You know what I mean? He's too busy trying to put on plays.

And so when you have that kind of quality, you're bound to get better. And when you are working with people who are better than you are all the time, you get better. And my dad taught me about that Carv that growing up with, I grew up with enormously talented people. I'm talking about some of the top people in this business that have gone on. I'm talking about Tamara Long from Dames at Sea. I'm talking about Ronnie Claire Edwards, who's one of the top actresses. I'm talking about John Wiley. I'm talking about Van Heflin, James Gardner. I mean, these are people that even became movie actors. And I mean, I'm talking about James Garner, his brother is still the principal of the elementary school system in Norman, Oklahoma. And here's a man who didn't. But I'm talking about enormous amount. I guess they all went away because by the time I was starting, there's no longer a lot of professional theater in Oklahoma, which is a shame.

But surprising enough, at that time, there was a tremendous amount of talented people. My little university that I finally got my degree from Oklahoma City probably has percentage wise, more opera singers than most schools around the country. I mean, plus you've got three Miss Americas from my university, plus you've got one of the few universities that offers a master's degree in musical comedy. You know what I mean? And Carv did all these because then he became the most fantastic teacher I'd ever known, but my dad one time, because growing up with these kind of talented people and not being as talented as they were, I could either go one or two ways. I could give up.

I could be jealous, resentful, bitter, but my parents, and it is almost like a mirror of two families, like Carv's mom and dad are almost like my mom and dad, and my mom and dad are almost like, you know what I mean? And they're both families are very supportive of each other's siblings always have been. And Carv was brilliant when we were just starting out as young professionals, but he was a dancer, wonderful dancer. And then he didn't get into acting and immediately was one of the leading actors at the Dallas Theater Center within two years. I mean, you know what I mean? That kind of talent is just overpowering. And my father told me one time we were driving and I thought I'd gotten by with it, but anyway, I was in a show with Carv and Carv was just brilliant in it. And my folks were bragging on him.

You know what I mean? And I thought I got by. I said something I thought I got by with my dad said, hun, don't be like that. And I said, what do you mean? He said, well, don't be like that. Don't belittle like that. My father. You say you saw a blood issue. Well, Uncle Pete is my dad, really. And with that quiet bluntness, but with kindness, he's a tough cookie, but he's probably one of the most gentle men I've ever known. And he said, don't be like that. He said, when somebody's better than you are, he says, it's not your job to bring him down. It's your job to try to get as good as they are. He said, you got far less problems that somebody's got more talent than you've got. He said, you've got a wonderful opportunity. You know what I mean? People with a lot of talent, I mean, they have to deal with a lot.

If you're not as talented, you've got one thing to do, get better. But then later, well, I'm sure it came from my father and also watch him, and it came from also working with Jon. If you're bad, get better. If you're okay, get better. If you're good, get better. If you're brilliant, get better. If you're definitive, get better, but get better or else it's all pointless. And in living art, particularly such as an acting, I've told the kids, well, I tell this to my own daughter who was an apprentice here last year. I've told Kelly time and time again, and I tell it to any of the youngsters, you've got it made. No artist living art where it's painting, acting, dancing. Well, dancing is a little harder. And even singing because those are physical things which you have to do in a quicker time because you wear out.

But even at that, anytime you tell a story, most of these people, certainly actors, painters, really should know how to do everything. An actor should know how to do everything there is from digging ditches, which I can dig one heck of a ditch to waiting on tables because what do we do? All we do is tell stories, actors or human beings telling stories about human beings to other human beings. That's all we are. We're storytellers. So in order to tell a good story, if an actor doesn't get better, as he gets older, there's something wrong. You see what I mean? Because the more richness you can bring to something, and that only comes from experience, and the secrets show.

So all of those things combined, they gave me, had that attitude. Then working with a theater like this. That's why this is one theater where my father, who never saw plays until I got into them he didn't know what these things were. Even though he's a brilliant man, he understands fully. He can understand how I make my living when I work at Actors Theatre. He can't quite understand how I make, he doesn't understand this flying in, doing a film or a TV thing or when was it? It was right after I had left to show you how to rejection. You're going to have to accept them now. I'd been in New York with Getting Out and everything had gone wonderful and a lot of big spread, and all of a sudden I was hot again. This was where I really made my decision. That was what, 10 years ago, that I really knew what I wanted. And it wasn't like fame and fortune, fortune be okay, as long as you don't have the fame to get in your way. I still like to bum around the country doing plays. I'm a tramp actor, and that's saw what I really wanted to be. And I've cost my family in certain terms, certainly easier. They could have had a little easier, and me too, making more money. And I've certainly thrown away some of those opportunities. But I wouldn't trade what I'm doing.

But I had this big hit, all of a sudden I was making big bucks. I was on a couple of soaps again, and which came in handy at that time. I needed the money at the time, but I just finished doing a show in Baltimore, Cyrano de Bergerac at Center Stage with that Marie Abraham playing de Guiche. Those have been fantastic. And I come bopping in. Oh, and plus, I just finished doing the lead in Dracula for Patrick Tovatt in at the Virginia Stage Company. And everything had been going fine, and I was just hopping. I mean, there had been nothing but yeses. Well, my daughter still lived here in Louisville, and they were little at the time, and I wanted to have a chance to see them and to show you how you have to deal with, I mean, you get leveled out in this business pretty fast. As soon as you start thinking you're pretty hot, you better watch that. See, you can't stop learning. And they were doing a production of Dracula, remember the Beef & Boards Dinner Theatre up at Simpsonville. And I had an opportunity, I had a few weeks, it would've worked out perfect for very little money to do the same lead Dracula.

And I thought, well, heck, this will be wonderful. I can stay here in Louisville and be with the kids for about six weeks or whatever, and then head for this next job. Didn't want me, wasn't good enough for him. You see what I mean? I was not what he wanted. And that's honest. It's real. And it's real in this business. You can't let rejections and being raised the way I was in probably a more transient business than theater has helped me deal with that. You have to use it as a challenge, not as a rejection.

But I've learned that from here. I mean, when Jon Jory, I mean, we've disagreed several times, but we've always been honest with each other. And if you're honest with him and straight with him, he'll go down the pike with you. And we've disagreed before, and I've never been dishonest with him except one time. And that was last spring. And you probably saw the show. And that's where I've appreciated him even more after all these years because I lied to him for the first time. I was dishonest with him for the first time ever in all of our 15 years of association. And that was taking steps last year, last spring, and I was ill, and I'd finished with a Faith Healer, and that went over pretty well artistically and everything. That was a good experience. But I was finally running out of gas. The doctors, my friends, my employers, you have to work a lot of weeks of theater. And I've been quite successful at that for several years now, but it's also a tremendous amount of work.

And he was worried about me because I'd even blown up and lost my temper, which I very seldom do in the way that I did it. I was very cruel to certain, and I was broken hearted about it. My child was there. I was doing everything it shouldn't be. It made. The pressure was finally and I was running out of steam, and it was that last piece of artistic burst, and I was bad in this show and a show I should have been having a good time with. And he was worried. And he called me in his office and I thought, well, here we go. And he said, down, and Bobby, how are you feeling? I said, I'm fine. I'm okay, alright, but I want you to know I'm not just your employer. I'm your friend.

I said, sure. He said, all right. He said, all right, now next season we can have it any way you want it. You make your choice on what you want to do. If you'll just kind of give it yourself a rest this summer, please. That's all he said. But he's also remembering your friend. Well, let me tell you, I went through a run through that had to be one of the worst I've ever done. My mind was just totally out of it. Opening night of Taking Steps, I was so bad. I wanted to give all the customers back.

Do you want me, oh, this is side two, take one. Okay. But he had confidence enough in me to know that I would practice what I preach. If you're bad, get better. I got adequate enough where I got better. And I had a couple of old friends of mine, I'll give him the credit, William McNulty and Susanna Hay who helped me through McNulty, who's known me for years. And he said, Burrus, you'll be fine soon. You should start easing up a little bit. And I had that kind of support, and I did get fine where I wasn't ashamed. I mean, I felt like that we gave him a pleasurable evening. It wasn't one of my finer things.

And I swore then I would never, any man who's that kind, he's tough, but he's kind. You see what I mean? He's kind. He likes actors. He demands the best from you, but he gives you the respect and he expects the same from you. And as long as we've been honest, that's [unintelligible]. If I take other jobs or we have confusions or whatever, and we've had 'em and we've butted heads a couple of times, and he knows that I'll be as blunt with him as he is with me. But the one time I wasn't blunt, you see, I threw him off because he had always trusted me, and I've forgiven myself for that because he has.

But I'm never going to be dishonest with him again.Cause it was irresponsible. It was something that anybody I've known all my life, I wasn't practicing what I preach, but you see what it is. We never stop learning. And you either feel bad about it, you feel guilty about it, you go in and bumble around and do those things. It's like you've heard, probably heard actors say, they get so mad at themselves for forgetting the first line they missed the next five. You can either go into that syndrome or you can hump it up and say, I got to get better. And you either fight through your fears or you don't do it. You got to dive in. You've got to take chances. He does. And he's been praised to the skies and raked over the coals, and he never backs off. He takes full responsibility for whatever goes on. So anyway, that's a brief and a long-winded thing to tell you about the background and Actors Theatre and how overall.

TW: When you look at some of the plays in the 74 /75 season. Discuss some of the ones you were in and what you remember about that.

BB: Well, that Championship Season with my first play here was a wonderful production. And one of the reasons I was here because Israel Hicks, who remains one of my favorite directors, directed that, but also it was a great play. But the relationship in that play or friends that I made in, boy, a couple of them now, Michael Gross certainly was in that play. And Mike now has just become, I mean a household word with the TV thing. GW Bailey,

TW: You should say the name of the program. Is it Family Ties?

BB: Family Ties, yeah. And I think aren't, they're a big special this week. They're last filming of this thing,

TW

I think.

BB

But my career has always almost been like a stair step. I mean like a hot house plan. He's handled it. I mean, he's gone right from here, right to more of the regionals, right? I was finishing Out, Getting Out when he was doing Bent on Broadway, and we would pass notes to each other, and then he went right from there, I think was there where he got the TV thing and went right on out. And of course he's done well. Another gentleman in that show was a real popular actor here for two years. Before that, I think Championship Season was his last play here was GW Bailey, who you've seen GW in innumerable films and TV shows, and he's doing quite well. I just remember it was a wonderful production, Frankenstein and Countess Dracula, that was just a lot of fun.

That wasn't one of our big successes, if I remember. But there was a play going on upstairs in the first play in the VJ. The first play I ever saw at Actors Theatre was a thing called Female Transport. And in that play was Adale O'Brien, Jeffrey Duncan Jones, Vaughn McBride, John Pielmeier, and a little skinny, hard hitting actress named Susan Cardwell Kingsley. And you see so many plays, and at this point, I was very New York conscious and singing and I'm thinking, I'm saying, God, this is so good. And this Championship Season that I was just in was so good, and that's really what made my decision. I'm going to stay here and learn. They were so good. And that's the first time I ever saw Susan Kingsley, who probably turned out to be one of the most popular actresses here and then died tragically, which has been hard for all of us to get over through the years because she was such a wonderful credit to this community and all over. She was a great lady, not just a great actress, wonderful person.

Then Stages was where I first met Victor Jory Senior and Jean Inness, and they were a joy. Victor, who I'd watched all my life as a little boy. I'm still scared, terrified when I was a little boy. I'll never forget watching Victor Jory as Injun Joe in that original Tom Sawyer with I think Mickey Rooney, God, I'll never forget it. And then all of a sudden here he was in the flesh. And for little boys growing up, and I tell you a story about Victor was, I think it was the next year we did The Last Meeting of the Knights of the White Magnolia that came a year or two later, I don't remember, but Preston Jones, who was an old southwest buddy of mine who wrote that Texas trilogy, when he found out Victor Jory was doing, and I'll never forget, Trish Pugh called him at the Dallas Theater Center, and we talked for a while, and he was saying, how are you doing Burrus?

How are things going? Good, good. Dave going great. And he was just so thrilled. He was just like me, because all we'd seen all of our lives, our generation was Victor Jory playing those bad men and doing all that stuff. And there he was in the flesh. And then I'd just seen Papillon, which had just come out I think in 74. And Vic played this wonderful, and he didn't have any lot, but he was wonderful featured. He was really wonderful. And what was a wonderful story? Oh, I know what it was. He'd give us tips on film acting, which was wonderful. But a film came through in on the late night TV that first year. And Victor was so funny. We said, Vic, we didn't know that you co-starred with Boris Karloff off in any movies. He said, Karloff, he said, I played poker with the so-and-so, but I never did a movie with him.

And what had happened was he said, well, Victor, it's in the late thing there that it's going to be starring Victor Jory and Boris Karloff. And he said, I've never made a film with Karloff. It turned out it was one of those real cheap, which Vic got into there for a while. He had, I think he paid for Jon, which Jon never let him forget doing fire majors from Outer Space thing. Horrible. And Jon would always remind his father this. And I think Vic would say, well, that's what got you paid for. Don't knock it. And what it was was one of those things where they just take a scene from a Boris Karloff movie and then splice 'em together. And Vic, I think said, he said, I shot the scene that I was in. They both got killed right away, but they used their names.

And Jean Inness, who now, once I knew who she was, who you'd see her face, you knew. But she was such a sweet woman and a wonderful actress. I only did the one thing because Jean at that time was getting a little older and was beginning to have difficulty. And Jon loved his mother, you know what I mean? And she was having a little trouble memorizing lines. It was starting to bother be too much far. And he kind of let off after that, let her. But she still had that wonderful listening quality. I would sit and watch her when we were doing the stages. I would finish and I would go up and I would watch her because she listened so well. She had a wonderful quality of childlike, of listening. You always hear everybody that says, great acting is listening, and I could really watch. And she was wonderful to watch.

So that was a wonderful year. Hitting the sand. And then for Ray Fry, who quietly, oh boy, you talk about getting nailed. The following year, I believe it was, Jon invited me back for the second season and we were doing Arms and the Man. And Ray was, that was such a good production. And I was doing the part of Nicola the servant, and it is a hard part, but I wasn't doing it very well. And I was spouting off about it in the dressing room. Ray was very quiet, never says a lot. See, there was Michael Gross, Ray Fry, I a wonderful actor named John Fields Adale O'Brien, who has to be, people don't realize it. I'm glad to see she's finally beginning to work a little bit out of Louisville because there's one America's best actress, unknown actresses in this country. I mean, she's a brilliant actress. But I wasn't doing very good, and I was yaking about it that nobody could play this part, blah, blah. And all of a sudden got this little pap on the shoulder and I was Ray. He said, would you please be quiet? I said, what? He said, please. He said, you're absolutely right. You're not doing this play very well. He's very quiet, very gentle, and I didn't know what to say, he said, but I can assure you

there are thousands of actors right now who would give their right arm to be doing this part and can no doubt do it better than you. So please be quiet. This is a wonderful play. It's a wonderful parts show some respect. He just said it that way. But you see, that's learning. And Ray Fry and I are just like that. And I've learned through him through the years. And golly, you can imagine we've had some wonderful successes together, both as acting, acting and him directing me acting. I mean, think about it, talking about The Caine Mutiny Court-Martial, the Faith Healer, just last year, the, oh golly, I can think and go on and on and on, but you see what I mean? The richness of what I was learning here. And that's what I've gotten

TW: Reunion. That was one of the ones I wanted.

BB: That was the first play. And now there is Anne Pitoniak, when she was here, you saw Blood Issue. Alright? It's one of those things Anne and I were talking because one thing that made her so wonderful in this Blood Issue that you like so much, but the brilliant acting in that was Anne Pitoniak. What's brilliant is if you take Anne Pitoniak's background, I mean I'm talking about the way she was raised and trained and everything. She's not really kind of right for that part, but she was so right for the part because she was not afraid to let all these years of richness and every experience of her life, her own life, which we all live life. And that richness comes through if you're not afraid to show it. See, that's another thing when I say go for it, Jon, you dive in, you go for it, you do it, you've got to do it. Reunion now is a big failure to me.

It was received all right, but I would love to do it again because now you see it was still too close and it was still trying to keep things secret. You notice how freely I talk about the alcoholism and that I'm not afraid of that anymore. And it's not because I make any promises. I mean, I've been sober for 21 years, but I'm not going to tell you I'm going to be sober tomorrow. I'm not going to make anybody any promises that way. And I'm not afraid to say it. But then you see, it was still a thing that I wanted to keep quiet or I didn't want to share.

And therefore something that I really should have been really wonderful in really, and I got a suspicion I'd be pretty damn good now. But you see that comes I look back. No, I wasn't very good. Show you how you learn too after working here for about, oh, I think it was after my fourth season, I got back into doing musical comedy in the summers, which was a great thing for me. And I saw how much better the parts were, like parts. I'm talking about Luther Billis in South Pacific. I'm talking about Nathan Detroit in Guys and Dolls, certainly Arthur and Camelot, which was, but by becoming real, by giving people reasons, by playing human beings, how much richer these parts were, I can make them so much better. They were, Billis has never been funnier. And I paid for Kelly, my oldest daughter for doing Luther Billis in South Pacific, but I realize now all I was doing was a caricature and it was fine.

And people kind of halfway expect that, but oh, he was really good because I made him a human being. Detroit was so much better because he was a human being and you must know what my satisfaction were doing Arthur and Camelot. I made it so much better because I'd been taught to give it some honesty, to give it simplicity, to give it human being. It's what I play. It's not Bob Burrus playing a part to show off Bob Burrus. I'm an actor, Bob Burrus representing another human being to another human being. And the faster I can get into that, I just do it. The great ones just do it. But that's why we should get better.

So all that richness and as the years go by, even with the, I mean you have your ups and downs, you have your successes, you have your failures. And I tell kids now, I said, you never look past the last show. It's funny, the Tempest

TW

Which you're doing now, Actors Theatre, right?

BB

Right now it's funny, I've done the Tempest maybe six or eight times. It's either six or eight times and I can't remember, there's something in between going clear back to 1964. And I've done it with some really good people. Some of these people I've named names like Michael O'Sullivan, Edward Herman, and then you go on with the productions actors that are well known within the community, but maybe not as well nationally known. But I've been in good productions. I played everything from Ferdinand when I was a kid to Caliban and on this production I'm doing the Boatswain, which I've never done. And let me tell you something that's a hard part. He just comes on the front and Jon says he's determined he's going to make this the first time ever in the history of The Tempest. He had the scene heard. But there's a wonderful lady from England, Helen who's here helping us with the phrasing and these wonderful exercises.

TW: What's her last name?

BB: I can't think of. She'll be in the credit. You'll get in in that Tempest. I can't think of Helen's last name right now, but I've really learned a great deal. You know what I mean? And there's only two lines in the second act that I say, but I thought, I have been working on those and they're hard. And I tell you right now, opening night, those two lines are going to scare me more. I'm going to be, you know what I mean, to say them right? And I may not say them right opening night, but I will say them before it's over and I'm learning something. Do you see? And if I foul up, and I'm certainly not going to be the best Boatswain who ever did it, but I might be pretty good by the time it's over.

But you see how you keep learning and it's not the big part sometimes. And you get the wonderful big parts that you expect to be good and like Blood Issue. I should know how to be good in the part of Uncle Pete because I come from that kind of background. I have several examples. I can do it my growth and richness. But I was pleased because I did get better. I did get better. I did get better. It got better, but I had to get better in different things. I had to unlock more secrets. I had to give things that the audience may not catch, but I knew and my actors knew. And somehow I can tell you now that the people who saw Blood Issue the next night's over saw things that the people on opening night didn't see because we got better. But you never stop learning.

TW: What was it like having Jory be the director and having Harry Cruz around? And just the whole thing?

BB: Harry Cruz was a joy. Now there is a man. That's what I mean about the real good people, the successful people. They've had enough success, enough failure. They can deal with it either way. You know what I mean? Life is a learning process. He was a joy. I tell you something, A guy who was one of the nicest people, I expected him because he's so brilliant. It was William F. Buckley Jr. He was, I only met him and I know his play got knocked and all that. And I saw it and I thought it was a pretty good play to be quite frank with you. But here was a man who was so sweet to his cast and so kind and so nice. He was a real gent, a real sweet man. And it was a joy. I was glad for Jon that this year using, because he's just trying to do what any good producer or anybody does.

I mean, we've had such a high Actors Theatre and you level out and you get to the point, it's like the Notre Dame football team. Everybody wants to beat 'em. Or my Oklahoma Sooners, everybody wants to beat 'em because they usually win. Well, hand slapping time has come and the way you get away from this format is not working anymore. So let's push it into a different kind of thing. And he's being criticized for it, of which he's, well, let's find out. Let's find out if this will work. And it hasn't always worked. But boy, talk about isn't that wonderful, that curiosity that he's kept, that he is not afraid to dive in. That's our job folks, and we've got to open up these vistas.

TW: Did you try out for Pete or did they tell you you were going to be in

BB: No, told I was going to be in it.

We had readings of it, but I sensed right away that I was going to be in it. Well, in fact, my first clue that I knew I was going to be is I read it, and then when I knew Jon was directing it, I almost smiled because the first reading is, they have us come in periodically through the year to read these plays. They'll say, Bobby, can you come in and read on Monday morning or Tuesday morning and we're paid for these things, but it's like to read these new scripts so they can hear them. And we came in and I read the part of Uncle Pete that day, and I always can know when Jon's, it isn't quite what he wanted to hear or expected to hear because he came back. He said, Bobby. He said, Bobby, I know it says right there that he, I think, what did he, I don't can't remember what he said.

He said, little, I know it says he's little old and fragile, but I want you to put in that, make him a little tougher, would you? And I thought, right then I'm going to be doing this part and Mr. Jory is going to be directing me in it. I wasn't giving him what he wanted and he was going to make sure I gave him what he wanted. He was already looking ahead of the game. He had his mind, I think. So that's the first time I had a, because usually in the new play festival was so many actors and auditioning, usually your contract says to be announced as cast, on the contract. So very seldom had I ever known what I was going to do in the festival. Some people do, but the resident people sometimes, but in my case, not that often.

TW: What does the production dramaturg do, for instance, Marcia Dixcy in this particular one?

BB: Well, they're in there all the time. And of course when you're going through the process of the new plays, Marcia is right in there all the time with Harry Cruz. And once you get it on its feet, a play is a living thing and it comes off different from the page than it does. And that's where they can really see if it needs to be cut or if it needs, and I'm sure they've experienced a lot more than we know what it is. I'm sure they experienced the playwrights, no, no, we can't cut this, or we can't cut that. Who resist. If you're a playwright and you've been sitting there giving your life's blood on a sheet of paper, you know what I mean? You want to hear those lines you think they should be or whatever are them put in. Mr. Cruz was just as loose as a goose. He just said, take it out or fine, put it in there. You know what I mean? I'm sure there were some resistance, but that's what those dramaturgs are there for, to assist and to help and to help. I mean, golly, you stop and think. I look at the volume of plays now that come through and it's really, and Michael Dixon and Marsh and the rest of 'em. It's a tremendous responsibility. And they're wonderful. I'm sure sometimes they've been, they know things that I have no idea what they go through, but I'm sure it takes a lot of patience, a lot of time.

TW: Are they there standing with you all when you're, by the time you're rehearsing, are they there?

BB: Oh, sure. They'll come in and watch the rehearsals. They want to hear how these lines are going. They want to know. And it's wonderful. For example, it's a wonderful thing they do for that. That's another thing they have with the interns and the apprentices. Like I'm directing a 10 minute play by Michael Dixon in the showcase for the kids at the end of the year.

TW: This is the Apprentice Showcase,

BB: Right? The Apprentice app Showcase. You're right. And the little dramaturg, the intern there this year. That's part of her job to come in there and to monitor some of those rehearsals to hear how those lines say. And she advises Michael, and I've known Michael Dixon from the Alley Theatre too. And these are things that Jon, this is another thing that he's more and more theaters are starting these things, opening up these vistas for new playwrights and getting dramaturgs in and you disagree. And sometimes when I'm up on the stage, sometimes saying, as I say, you ought to be on our side of it trying to say some of these things, I sometimes wonder where they do it. I laugh. Some of my, what was one of my first great opinions? I think it was Crimes of the Heart. Well, this will never sell. Well, it only won a Pulitzer.

So I mean, I stopped putting myself in that position. I don't talk a lot. And I know Jon and I even had a little conversation. You could feel the vibes were very good for Blood Issue and you can kind of sense, but anymore, I'm afraid of saying anything. He said, what was it? Laughed. He was saying, Bobby, I think it's going to be pretty good. I said, I got a feeling too, but I'm not going to say one more word. I don't want to jinx it. You know what I mean? I don't want to, because sure, as I say, it's going to be great. We'll go right down the tubes. It's almost superstition, but at the same time, you get away from throwing opinions on something. I give things about five, 10 times anymore before I give an opinion because I've been wrong so many times in my life.

TW: How about Getting Out? Did you have vibrations about that?

BB: No, we were, I thought this was a great play for women. I thought there were wonderful performances. I mean, Susan and Lynn Cohen and the original, all of 'em were wonderful. Little Denny Dylan who originated Arley was wonderful. And we were so busy doing a play that I think Jon still loves a great deal. It was the play that won the Cole, that playwriting contest with getting the

TW: Great American playwriting contest.

BB: It was The Bridgehead and boy Leo Burmester. I'll never forget, he and I were both doing Getting Out, and we would run from the old ballet city over to a warehouse on Main Street, just right across from where that monument is, where the old train station used to be. And we were rehearsing this Bridgehead, which was a play about the early days of this company, this in Laos. That was, and I mean, we were talking, working with some ex Vietnam vets, and it was wild. And our problems were totally with this plan. It turned out to be a pretty big success. Streamers had taken over and it couldn't quite overcome that. And so I know I didn't really notice Getting Out, and I thought that I was miscast in it and I had to change the character around because of the description of what he was. I was thrilled for Marsh because we had worked at different projects, Marsha Norman.

TW: Now I have that. You originated the part of Benny.

BB: I did, but I think the first choice, I only heard this later, and this is only hearsay, was Barry Corbin, who was a wonderful actor. And you must remember, if you've been here, Corbin now has a very wonderful film career going. He's one of the top character men in Hollywood. He's a great actor and as wonderful as Benny. What happened was, I think that he was the original choice anyway, and he couldn't do it. And Jon just simply put me into the part because I think I was going to be doing the part I did in The Bridgehead, and it worked great for me. That was a part for me, and it all worked very, very well. And then later when it moved up to the Phoenix Theatre, Barry played Benny and did it. They got great reviews there. Everything went great. And I suspect what happened was they had never told me that. It just came out lucky break for me that they probably wanted Barry to do the off-Broadway too. And he was here at the time. We were doing Room Service. I think when this came about with the off-Broadway thing, and I think they offered it to him, but he had a film coming up called Brubaker, and then he turned that down to do another film called Urban Cowboy, which made him a character actor star. He played Uncle Bob in that movie.

TW: What about open rehearsals? You all have open rehearsals?

BB: Yep.

TW: Do other resident theaters do that, or is that kind of

BB: Some do and some don't. It depends. It always depends. Some do and some don't, but Actors has always kept that open.

TW: And are you comfortable with it?

BB: Yes.

TW: Because you're used to it or

BB: Yes, I'm used to it.

TW: Do you think that's why you're comfortable with it?

BB: Yes

TW: This is the end of side two tape one interview with Bob Burrus.

BB: No, because I mean, we've butted heads, but he is a fair,

TW: This is the beginning of side two, I mean, tape two, side one interview with Bob Burrus on Actors Theatre. I wanted to ask you, do resident theaters have a stamp, an identity among the theater community at large?

BB: Yes, I'm sure they do. Any successful organization has a stamp, a certain thing. Certainly. And the thing about, you always identify the Guthrie, for example, with Guthrie, the Dallas Theater Center, you always identify for years anyway, with Paul Baker. They're going through, and of course, certainly the Alley Theatre. You identify with Nina Vance, Iris Siff, Betty Gardner, The Three Ladies of the Alamo, the play they wrote later about these ladies, an Actors Theatre beginning, I would say around 70, well, 74 really began, not because I came here, but I think Jon was beginning his push now. He had been here for, what, three years at that time or more than that

TW: Since the 69.

BB: Yeah, 69. So he was really beginning to start these innovations that I think had been in his mind for some time. I mean, you realize you were dealing with a producer, a young producer now who knew a lot about theater, who had his own, he had had bad things happen to him. He had had a theater taken away from him, The Long Wharf, which now has his own stamp. But he must have had some success with that. So he knew what he wanted and he got it and therefore he went to the process of going for what he was after. And I'm sure that this thing with the play festival had been in his mind for some time. And it did what, my word, Actors Theatre now has international renown because of the play festival and certainly has to me is the fountain head of what the new regional movement was at that point.

I mean, it just became that it didn't have the big, I mean it didn't have the big glossy type feel that you had from ACT in San Francisco or the glossy type feel that you had from the Guthrie, the arena. But it certainly was the forerunner of what you'd call the little theaters that weren't supposed to be that famous. Suddenly everybody, it became the fountain head, it became the pulse beat of this country and was for quite a while. And lemme tell you something, when you're, particularly in those days when you were working in the ballet studio or the church over there and were just, some of the great plays came out of those rehearsal halls, but you don't realize what's going on. It isn't until you got out in the world and realize, and then it suddenly dawned on me that I had been seen by more producers, more directors, more agents at this theater in Louisville, Kentucky than I would've gotten in New York in umteen years.

And that opened doors to me. It doesn't mean you always get the job, but they knew who I was and I didn't know they knew who I was. But to this day, I can walk in almost anywhere. They may not hire me, but they know who I am. And I owe that to this theater Actors Theatre. I would say our quality, well, I'll put it this way, you take Getting Out. The people in Louisville, Kentucky to me, saw a better overall production of Getting Out than the people ever saw in New York because we had the physical facilities to do better things. And if you're an actor, I mean, you look at the plant we have now with beautiful rehearsal halls, with both the stages with, I mean that is a seductive thing. I would say that Actors has moved in. Of course the Humana put them on the map internationally. But I think it's not just that anymore. It has a name for quality. If you've worked at Actors Theatre of Louisville, ah, this guy must be pretty good to get in there. I've heard a lot of the actors now coming out of New York, their agents even want them. They only want them down here not for a long time because naturally they're trying to make more bucks and the bucks are in certain areas of the country. New York, LA certainly the Dallas Houston area. That's even what we're doing in film and TV is becoming now what we did in theater starting about this time, really.

But even the prestige of the theater, and it isn't just the play festival anymore. I noticed that when I came back. It's the credit. Now the play festival might've started that, but it's not just that anymore. The Cronin's were here and Hume Cronin and Jessica Tandy for example, came back and Mr. Cronin, who is another one of those gentlemen who was one of the great artists in the country and has been so good, you can see here's a man who has been learning all of his life, very simple. And he said, you're one of the finest acting companies I've ever seen. And he meant it. You know what I mean? He meant it. Well, we've been judged by the best. We've been judged great. We've been judged mediocre. But they always judge us. They, they're always interested.

TW: So Jory has quite a challenge,

BB: Always. The better you get. I mean, you say how your challenge multiplies. I mean, I told him once, I forget when it was. I mean, here's how he laughs really. But I mean, this is the plumber son speaking. Sometimes I'll just say things, but I mean I look at the thing, he and I have talked and when I'm having to make force him to make a decision, Jon, can you tell me what you're going to do? Because I've got to make a decision here. I got the kids to raise. I got this to do. Can you tell me if you're going to use me next year? And we keep it open. I know the day's going to come when you're going to say, Bobby, I just haven't got a full season for you. I'm say, Jon, I understand completely because I will.

But I'll even say, look, with all the things you're trying to decide now, I hate to pest you with this. I mean this office. And you can see it happening. He loves, I mean, his vacation time is getting down and wallowing with us. And it's getting harder every year because he's got an enormous, think about it, enormous budget, enormous business things, enormous decisions he has to make. And it's getting larger and larger and larger. Besides, and he keeps his finger on it. I mean, here's a man that can walk in where you and be totally focused on what he's doing. And a lot of times actors will be it. And he does that. I mean, he will completely tune you out. He can be the most charming, wonderful. And handles his rehearsals just wonderfully. I mean, he's one of the best directors I've ever worked with, I would say in the top five.

But the most brilliant is the firmness. There's a guiding hand and who's directing that play. But it's done in such, you know what I mean? And I think the more that he realizes how he can intimidate actors, because Jon Jory is becoming a moving force and that can be intimidating. And he's becoming so kind about that really, really where I probably as a young Turk coming up, I'm sure he probably wasn't. We all learn. He maybe enjoyed a little bit. I don't think he does anymore. I mean, I think he really doesn't want, he just wants to get a good performance out of an actor. And if he walks in and he's got this actor that's just working with him for the first time, and he's heard this name Jory for all these years. I mean, you got a terrified actor there. And he just, his mind goes mumbly pegs.

And he's become so wonderful about that. He can break the ice and make that actor feel comfortable. Now that's brilliant. But he'll come out of that rehearsal and he's got a thousand things he has to force himself. And he's also a very good parent. I mean, he may be picking up Victor Jr at a soccer match or making sure Jessica gets home in time to go to her drama, whatever. I mean, I'm just seeing what I see. And I also recognize fathers, I'm a father of two daughters. I know what goes on here. But he also, he's managing to do that and take that time. And yet he's got this, I mean, down that office, he's making decisions, exciting, exasperating everything you do. I got off a little bit, but I was talking about people like him and it was for some international interview. And they had, he and I, and we were talking, I can't remember.

And they asked me and I said, well, I'll tell you, thank God for people like Mr. Jory and I mentioned a couple of other people around the country, Peter Coleman at Center Stage, The Nine advances, these people that were innovators. Thank God we have these people because I know what a nightmare it is for them to come up somehow to keep these theaters going. To me, this is the most exciting time for American theater in the history of it. We're doing on a continent what the Brits did on an island. Think about it. When could an actor use his headquarters in Oklahoma City? And your roadmap is your office. Think about it. Think how many regional theaters all over this country? They're all over. You can look on a roadmap, but I can tell you right now, an actor can take off, can drive a start from east to west and the time he's got from New York to LA or vice versa, he's got a bunch of auditions that he's had. And I bet you a dollar to a donut, if he's pretty good, he might find a job. I mean, we literally, it's more choices than we've ever had. Well, it takes a special breed of folks to keep that going because times are tight.

These people are struggling. They're fighting to keep 'em going. I mean, this theater is, that's so beyond, I mean a lot of theaters like to have this theater's problems with all the grants and things, but it's been earned. And Jon used it to go for quality to do better, to keep getting better. And I said, I know it's a rough time for all these producers and all these people, but it's a golden time for actors and certainly writers and directors. And I said, thank God for 'em. I wouldn't have their job for all the world, but it's their fault. They wanted it and this is what I want. But I said, that's Mr. Jory's problem, not mine. And thank God for him. I wouldn't have his job for all the tea in China.

TW: What characteristics is it that he has that enables him to

BB: I don't know, honey. I have no idea. I don't know from

TW: Observing him.

BB: Well, I think what it is is an overall just childlike curiosity. I mean, he's just curious. He just wants to hear and put on a good story. He wants to. He is totally. And it must have been from the time he was little watching, I guess comes from watching the best, from being driven by the best. Certainly.

TW: Who decides which plays are going to be chosen to show?

BB: He does. He does. I mean, finally everything comes down to him. I guess every decision then it has to come down to him. He has to make the reports to the board and do all the things. You know what I mean? You're asking me questions now that only he could say exactly what his duties are,

TW: But the way you see it, it looks as if he's probably the guy who gets to choose what's going to be shown. When do you find out what the next season is going to be?

BB: It can depend. I mean, he's asked me if I've been interested as early as February sometimes. And then sometimes I won't know until I had to force him a couple of times, say, Jon, what are you going to do with me next season? It's okay, but I got to know,

TW: Do you have an agent?

BB: No, I have agents that I work with, but since I've done so many regionals, it would be ludicrous for me to have an agent. No. In fact, I got angry. Even I flat told when I was hot in 79 from Getting Out, I got angry when they would ask me to go over to Studio 48 or TCG to audition for a regional theater. I said, folks,

TW: TCG is Theatre Communications Group. What's the other one?

BB: It's Studio 48. It's just one of the studios that we studio go, right. That's where I audition in New York. And I would say, folks don't send me for auditions at regional theaters. I know the regional theaters.

TW: So you just can do it yourself

BB: On the regionals. Now, film and television, like in Houston, I have a certain agent that represents me there or will help me, and that's only for film and television in Dallas. And I'm talking to a person now, and I don't want to give out these names. They're personal. But I am talking because I'm going to have to do more film and television the next few years. I can't keep up the schedule I've been keeping, I'm going to have to give myself a little more space because my work will fall off like it did last year. I don't want to have that burnout feeling that happened to me

TW: Because what's the difference between film and just as an actor here? I'm a regular person. I don't know. How's it different to do film, television or plays?

BB: Nowadays. It's okay. It's so much different than the days when Victor Jory Sr, for example, was working in the films. In those days, the movie studios certainly created a lot more variety. It was like having resident companies in the movie business. Do you see what I mean? If you watch all the old movies up until the breakup of the movie, it wasn't just the stars. You had familiar character actors and these people made wonderful livings, but they also got interesting parts. They had great parts. You know what I mean? I have found, particularly, of course, my movies are back in the early sixties and these involved cheap science fiction things with fading child stars. So I can't really be an authority, but my own opinion of movie making and John Dennis Johnston, who is a wonderful actor who was in Blood Issue, has a nice film career going, but he and I were talking and it was costing him some to do here and come and do Blood Issue because of the film thing. But the example is with movie making to me nowadays, and we have wonderful scripts and people, but it costs so much more now and everything's independently produced. And that in order to get the really interesting great parts, you have your top film stars who can command and they can go through the scripts and can afford, but

Filmmaking to me got pretty boring because you're only going to do certain parts that you're right for, which is okay and you get paid well for it. But it's a lot of it's just waiting around. And I really got, well, it happened, it's when I made a decision 79, I had to do, I was doing continuing roles on a couple of soaps, Guiding Light and a Search for Tomorrow. And they weren't like main parts, but they were lucrative parts and they were getting me. But I was sitting in the Guiding Light studios one afternoon about 3:30 or four o'clock, and I've been sitting there since seven o'clock in the morning waiting all day. And I just finished reading a book by Paul Muni. And I was sitting there and I was thinking, is this what I want to do with my life? I mean, this is what it's going to be. I'm going back to plumbing. And I did. Getting Out closed about a month earlier than we thought it was going to. And I worked out a deal

And I was going to go to work at the Virginia stage, which was my next assignment, which my agent in New York didn't like me doing because it was going to cost a lot of money. I mean, you know what I mean? They had me up for things. But I'd made this decision and I literally spent the last of my soap opera money really, which cheated my family if I want to go on a guilt trip, which I'm not. But at that time, I needed it. I had about a month and a half I think. But I spent January of, I think 1980 and part of December of 79, flying back and forth from Oklahoma City, I took a construction job remodeling the hospital and worked as a plumber on a remodel. And I remember the old plumbers, the gentlemen I had known all my life since I was a little boy, they were getting a kick out of it and they couldn't believe it. Bobby, what are you doing? And they put up this TV set there in this hospital, and I didn't, I never knew what I did in the soaps. My mother had to tell me I didn't know.

And I would fly back, I'd fly out on Friday night and shoot the soap. They'd guarantee me a number during the week kind of thing. And I did that clearing until I finished out. I later went down to Virginia Stage. It was easier flying from Norfolk. I'd fly on Mondays and shoot, but, and that's when I really knew what I wanted to do. I just wanted to bum around and do plays just a tramp actor. And I love that. I love that freedom. It's not an easy life and it sometimes is harder on your family.

Certainly I'm glad that my oldest daughter Kelly, and I think she's going to do, I hope she is more, I love being just a tramp actor, but I'm hoping that Kelly will take more of the advantage and she's going to, I want her to get into producing, directing, certainly writing of what she's good at. And she's alright as an actress, she'll be fine. She'll do better in film because of certain physical limitations with the arthritis, things like this. The stage is going to be very tiring for her. But I hope, and she loves directing and she loves film and I want her to go more than that. My youngest daughter, Bobby, has no interest. I mean, other than that's what dad does. And she likes to come and see certain plays and things and she's going into languages and it's just won a wonderful grant and things to Pace University in New York City in New York. I can't think of where it's right now.

And so I'm glad, I'm glad that my youngest daughter has chosen not to do it, but it would've been fine. I want Kelly, I told her, I said, well, if you've decided to do it, go for it. Go for broke. I've been tough on her in certain ways, you know what I mean? We're just like this. But I don't, well, it's like her grandfather did me. I don't mean you've got to go for it. And she understands all that. Sometimes ignorance is bliss. And when a child who's raised, Jon must have known this, Jon Jory, Jessica, his daughter, who a boy sure is a talented child, seems pretty committed. But if you're the child in any field, my brother had to make a big decision if he wanted to go into the mechanical contracting business when you know all the pitfalls and all the dangers and all the rejections and you know what I mean?

You sit there as a child and you have eaten steak when dad's doing good and you'd eaten beans when he isn't. Thank goodness, their mother at the time was always supportive of that part of my career and always made a lot of money herself. So we even had it better than most. Plus her grandfather had given me her dad. I mean, I never had to struggle like a lot of actors did. I mean, they said no to me. I could hit construction jobs and make more in three days and most actors made in two weeks, stage actors certainly at that time. And I still had that choice. I haven't done it in a long time. And I probably last till noon before they ran me off. I mean, I had to learn it again. But the thing about it is, I do have that card, I have that book, and sooner or later I'd latch on. So you see what I mean? It gives me a certain confidence. I'm not afraid. And my father gave me that, but Jon Jory has that and I'm sure his dad gave him that. Alright, if you are afraid, well so be it. Let's dive in and try.

TW: I wanted to ask you what you remember about this play in the 74/ 75 season, A Flea in Her Ear.

BB: All I remember basically is a wonderful actor named Jeffrey Duncan Jones, who was up for the best supporting actor in Amadeus. Jeff was a wonderful actor, and it was the only time that I can ever, it was a wonderful production of Fleeting Air. Ray Fry was just brilliant as Posh, is that his name? I can't remember the old, but we literally destroyed a set on the preview night. And Jon still gets a kick out of this because he had such earnest actors. I mean, it was a high powered cast and wild, it was a wild production and it was really brilliant. I mean, but golly, you had Michael Gross, Ray Fry, Adale O'Brien, John Pielmeier, golly, who have, I missed all these people. And he had this turntable and I was playing the old gentleman in the bed, and I remember on the preview night it went swinging around and it stopped where it wasn't and literally tore the flats down.

And Jeffrey Duncan Jones was still trying to act and I was still trying to act, and the set was just coming to pieces. And finally Jon came on the stage and he was just laughing. He said, ladies and gentlemen, I want to thank you on behalf of my earnest working actors, but folks, you might as well take a break because we have destroyed the set. And he was laughing and he still laughs about that. He said, I've never seen such earnest hardworking people when you had to totally destroy the set. And he still laughs at it, but he was quite charming and put the audience at their ease. I remember more about that. There were a lot of funny things in it, but I remember that more than anything.

TW: Why did you come back to Actors Theatre when you?

BB: That was quite

TW: How'd that happen?

BB: Well I worked. I had been jobbing around a lot and I still kept an apartment here, but my parents had gotten, rather, they had both retired. But I was at Virginia Stage as a matter of fact, and I was sitting in my apartment in Virginia Beach and my parents, Patrick had offered me another show at Virginia Stage, and the director at I think it was Center Stage, had offered me some things. I had some things going, but my parents wrote to me and I could just tell they never said anything, but they weren't feeling well.

And a friend of mine who had worked here at Actors a did work here who had been a friend of mine, who's Ken Lanterman, who was at the Dallas Theater Center for many, many years later, worked here a year as a resident actor, was now head of this theater in Oklahoma City that they were trying to revamp. It was the old Mummers Theater that they had turned into the Oklahoma Theatre Center, one of the Ford Foundation grants First Failures, I think way back in the sixties. And Ken asked me if I would come in and do a new play by a resident writer at the Dallas Theater Center on a guest artist contract, which was pretty good money. And Jon and I talked at that time about me coming back, this would be the winter of 81. And I thought, no, I'm going to go back and just be with my folks and see.

And I did the play for Ken and I called Mr. Baker at the Dallas Theater Center, and he offered me a couple of things, but I'd sent out letters as I do. And I already had a job offer from the Alley Theatre of all people, and I couldn't do it because I was doing the play for Ken. But I wrote back and I thought, well, heck, while I'm here, I might as well audition at some of these theaters. And I think I went down to the Houston audition for the Alley. I think I went to Kansas City and auditioned for the Missouri rep, just the theaters around the area because I thought I might better stay close to mom and dad for a little while. And I flew down to Houston one day and auditioned at a general, and they offered me a full season at real good money.

And plus did a lot of filming out. I made a lot of money, which I needed too at the time. It came in handy. And so I was working, I did two years of residence at the Alley, much as I do here. And I like them very much. They're a great theater, certainly their acting company, which is not overall, but I've made close friends there. That's been my two main theaters the last few years, the Alley and Actors. But I enjoy Actors is where I enjoy doing the residencies most. It's like real home to me. But anyway, I was here for two years and I brought Bobby back home. She spent the summer with me and I was just driving through Louisville and I think, oh, I was driving a car down for Kelly who had started college in Florida. And my friend Jack Johnson, who you interviewed, JJ and I, we were working on a play together and he was doing a show in Cincinnati Playhouse in the Park.

And I had a thing with him and then driving this car down to Florida for Kelly and then flying back to go back to work at Houston. And I thought, I just want to stop in and say hello to the guys. I hadn't been able to stop by. And I just stopped in and Bobby and I had been talking and she was getting ready to go into junior high. And I was thinking, I've got a growing daughter here who dad's been gone a long time, and golly, maybe I should start dealing with this child. You know what I mean?

And my kids are so sweet and they've been great about everything. And I thought, well, it was just in my mind, I should think about this. And then you what? I mean, it went away a little bit and I was getting ready to drop. I thought, I'm just going to stop by and say hello to the guys and stopped by and Jon was when we were still in the old offices with Mary Coy and all. Mary wasn't there then. I think she just retired. And Jon just came through and of course everything was so much, it's still, it was that same smallness that he said, Bobby, what in the world are you doing here? I said, just passing through. And he said, well, come on back. And we sat back and we were just talking. He said, Bobby, would you like to come back? He said, God, yeah, I would. I would, I would. And that's how it did. And then I came back in 83 and I've been doing the residencies here ever since. And then I job, of course at the Alley and I have to job all over.

TW: And you do that yourself,

BB: I find all those. I negotiate all myself.

TW: Do you know what script they're going to have you read when you go there or

BB: Well now I've got to the point of certain there they'll call me. Now I've got to the point, for example, I did Barry Child again at Center Stage just recently, which was, well, I'll say recently, about two years ago. I don't remember.

TW: Well now Barry Child has been filmed and it's part of the National Theatre Archive.

BB: Yes. Center of New York City. Yes. That was the other production I was in. Okay. Like that. Okay, Stan Wojewodski the director at Center Stage. You see me do this at another theater. And I was just doing one of the festival plays. It was No Mercy. And Jackson Phippin, who's also one of my favorite directors, was directing it who had directed me in this production of Buried Child at Virginia Stage many years before. And he said, and Jon, couldn't you,

TW: This is the beginning of Tape two, side two interview with Bob Burrus.

BB: Okay. And he said, why don't you just drop off a note and ask? I'll do it. Because you know what I mean? The reason you have to when you quote are successful, which better be careful about that. But one of the things that everybody assumes, you're always working, so you still have to keep your mailing. You have to work hard. This is a hard business to let them know that you are not working. Everybody ties me with Actors Theatre. Well, that's a dangerous thing because then you don't get the calls in case. So you got to let these people know that you're interested, whether you make it or not or whatever. I would've lost out on a lot of jobs if I didn't let them know. So I just put this in and badly. My handwriting is so awful. It's a joke. And I just scribbled it down.

Stan heard you're doing Buried Child. Don't forget me, babe. Love you. And I hadn't worked with him since Cyrano and rushed down on a break, put a stamp on it, put it in the mail room and took off. Well, a few days later, I got a call from McCorkle Casting in New York and they were trying to cast Buried Child, and Stan wanted to know if I was available. And I said, well, Stan, I am, but I am available, but I'm rehearsing for the Humana. I can't get down there. He said, well, how about me flying the director in? I said, okay. And this young director flew in and watched me rehearse all day. Then I read Buried Child for him. Yeah, he gave me a script and yeah, and Phippin took him out and walked with him down the street and told him about me and all that kind of stuff. And I'm sure Phippin knowing him, he told the good and the bad.

TW: Did you get to look at the script a few minutes beforehand?

BB: Oh yeah. Well, you already, of course I knew Buried Child, but I had to look at it again. And also too, that's wonderful. One thing I love about the stage, my Dodge in this Buried Child is not my Dodge. You see, I've changed and it's interesting. It makes it fascinating because how you do, you change and you get jobs that way by when I was at Center Stage, one of the young producing director at the People's Light had seen shows here and heard I was doing the Buried Child. He called me to ask if I wanted to just take a little drive on a Monday up to York, up to Melbourne, which I was only about an hour and a half, two hours out of Baltimore. And I drove up after we opened Buried Child, auditioned for him, didn't get the part I wanted, but then he cast me in another part.

And so that's how I got that job. And while I was there, I went on to the Walton Street Theatre. You see what I mean? You had, the work never stops. How you do that, the Alley now knows me so well that I guess there're mainly, and so I'd gotten to the point where they would just call me specifically. They already knew. I mean, I wouldn't have to audition or anything. It was just when the role would come up, they'd call me and have me come in and do it. But most of those people you see have been let go at the Alley, my people. And now another gentleman has come in down there and I've got an audition. I've got to start with him. But he's very nice. And I have an audition with him in June after I finish here, because I want to keep that contact. But it's starting all over.

TW: Do you know yet what you're going to?

BB: Nope.

TW: They tell you when you get there?

BB: No. I'll do a general, you can either do a general, and if they like your general, then they'll have you read specific parts. It can work anyway. Or a general,

TW: what does that mean?

BB: A general is you have monologues and things you do. Now I'm

TW: [Unintelligible] that you just present yourself.

BB: And I have worked up mine and it's worked very well. Now I can usually, if you can coerce them in, I'd like to do a seven to eight minute collage and just start and go from to D and then gives you a far bigger range, you see. And now I'm beginning to get to the point where I can get them to do that. I just did that at the Arena and it worked out very well. And I think positive things will come from that, but you never know where the job offers will come. I went and talked with, for example, the Walton Street Theatre in 86 or whenever that was. Well, a year or so later I get a call, they want me to do a show there. I couldn't do it, but I'm still in contact with them and I'm supposed to meet with them again.

TW: Because you have to work all summer.

BB: Well, generally, I'm trying not to this summer because I'm having to do more film and I'm terribly afraid of the burnout because what I've been doing was working all the weeks. But yes, I may be working this summer. Yes, there is that chance. Yeah, because I may, Bobby's starting, but she's got a wonderful, she's helping her dad out. She's got a wonderful scholarship to this university. She's going to, which really helps. Her father and her sister weren't quite that studious. So Kelly B, we had a finagle, but they're both hardworking kids and have worked hard and they're really a credit. Been my salvation are my kids and everybody. I was such a wild kid. I mean, not wild and well, I got wild in a mean way too. But both my daughters are so much more mature than I am. They spent their lifetime trying to raise their father. They're very kind, very gentle for me. But they're good kids. Hardworking, patient kind

TW: I want to say thank you very much for your time.

BB: Thank you for yours.