Interview with Judy Lawrence Miller, May 2, 1989

Teka Ward: Today is May 2, 1989. My name is Teka Ward. I'm with Judy Lawrence

Miller. We are at 609 West Main Street. Our topic is Actors Theatre of

Louisville. Judy you've been- you're in the unique position of having served ATL

as a volunteer, a board member and a staff member. But as we begin, tell me just

a little bit about yourself. Judy Miller: As I began Actors Theatre, or what I'm

doing now? TW: Like, you know, both. And also like where you're from, just a

little bit. JM: I'm a native. Lived here all my life, except for a few times

away for months at a time. I went- I went to local high schools, graduated from

University of Kentucky, came back, taught school. And then I went to volunteers

luncheon or something when Actors Associates was mainly a study issue, where all

they did was sort of 1:00read plays and discuss them or--they weren't a hands on

organization at all, but sort of, more of a learning thing. And got real

interested just interested in theatre because I was a theatre major. And then,

when I stopped teaching school, when I had my first baby, then it was when I

sort of got invited to come to these luncheons, which turned into the

organization, and that's how I got really involved. TW: What were you teaching

in school? JM: I taught theatre, I taught dramatic art, at Wagner High School.

And senior English and I loved it, but I quit when my little, my first child was

born--who is now graduating from Indiana University, Saturday. (laughter) ??? I

can't stand it! TW: That's great. Congratulations! JM: So I mean it was a long

time ago. But that's how I 2:00really started out with this group. TW: And then

today you are with the Louisville Orchestra-- JM: -- as Director of Public

Affairs. And this is my fourth season with Louisville Orchestra and I left

Actors Theatre to come to this position. TW: So your early interest was just

with Actors Associates. JM: Well, I think- I'm a big believer that these sorts

of things happen because friends that invite you to things and such, and not

just- I had an interest in theater obviously but I, mean, ??? Victor, and Sara

Pugh and Mimi Martin and people invited me to come. I went to a luncheon,

thought it was fun, pretty soon I believe, I found myself secretary for no

apparent reason at all (laughter), so I don't know whether It was just somebody,

it was their turn be president, and at that time it wasn't a very big deal. I

mean you went to a lot- you know you went to a tea or something and you talked

about the plays, I mean certainly Richard Block did not want any 3:00hands on

participation like Jon Jory did. So, I was then Secretary for a year or so, then

I was president. And then when that happened I had to move away because my

husband had been called up ??? was taken. They took this division of the Air

National Guard so I went to Kansas city for almost a year--eight, nine

months--so then I wasn't president, I mean somebody else obviously vice

president had to take over, so when I came back I was president when Jon Jory

came to town. And I'll never forget how it all changed. I'd go to a meeting with

Jon and Trish- Jon says that in his calendar I am the second person he met in

Louisville, that I have- I'm on his 4:00calendar as having been the second meeting

he had in Louisville anyway. So, I remember the first time going down there and

seeing them. I had met Jon at a board thing that I- as a member of- oh, I guess

Actors Associates presidents, I was sitting at that point ex officio on the

board, so I met Jon when he came to town to either interview or whatever. So

I'll never forget when Trish and Jon go down there and realize that their idea

of an actors associates, and the idea that the Actors Associates had before was

totally an antithesis one of the other because where Richard Block had wanted it

to be a study group, an awareness thing that Actors Theater is happening, and

get your friends to read the plays they'll know all about it and come to the

plays. Jon Jory really needed help getting an audience, painting the walls,

picking up actors, cooking for ???--I mean we're 5:00talking about hands on kind of

things. And when it wasn't their immediate interest to do that, because these

people were not quite into that. So I would never- I was always absolute ???

every time I'd leave a meeting with Jon and Trish where I would leave thinking,

"I said I'd do what? I can't believe it. That's a hundred more phone calls. Did

I say that? Did they ask me to do that?" So, I'd forever be shocked at what I

said I'd do. Then I'd go home and start doing it. One year I organized a hundred

and twenty three coffee parties, one summer for them. Anyway, so then we realize

that we need to build the group up, and Jon did not want me to stop being

president. He wanted me to be president again, the following year, because I had

been gone out of town, he wanted continuity. So I said okay, we needed to build

it up sort of, you know it was a transition time. So we picked out four or five

people that we knew had 6:00circles of friends, networks friends, and we started

building that way and we would invite them to come down and hear about Actors

Theatre, what the plans were, to meet Jon and have cookies and tea or whatever

and then we asked them to go find four people and bring back and then those four

we asked to bring three bacl and everything so that it built on a relationship

kind of thing where someone sort of accountable to their friend. And there was

an interest, there was an excitement always there. But I mean it meant that if

you didn't come the next week it wasn't that you were un-involved, it was like

I'd want to know why you told me you could come and didn't come. So we sort of

had a good handle on getting people to be accountable for friends is what that

is. And come, and people started being interested, and then we 7:00started of course

getting things to do that were of interest, and then dividing up committees and

figuring out about meetings and figuring out about a board, and how to operate

this thing we call Actors Associates. That's sort of how it happened. As it

turned out I think that--I think that I'm the only person that was ever asked--I

think I was three four years president- TW: Right. You are the only one who

served three times as president of Actors Associates. JM: (laughter) Well, I

remember when they came and got me again for the second time, that Trish and Jon

said it needed a shot in the arm, and that it needed revamping again or

something, so. I thought about it probably about four minutes, and said, "Sure.

Why not." I mean- So I went back in to it 8:00heavy heavy heavy heavy again. But

course I loved Trish and Jon and Sandy, I loved the people I was working with, I

loved all the actors. I was a theater box- see I'd just returned from New York

seeing seven plays in five days this last week so, I mean any time a theater

door opens I love it. So I wanted to see it work. I love the people who are on

the board. So I really wanted to see it work. So we tried to figure out the

things that excite people, and the things that drain people in the volunteer

arena. Why was it waning? What was the interest level? Were they- you know, a

lot of these things are run by egos and were people not being asked to do the

right things? Was Jon not being attentive enough? Had he been around, had there

been enough thank yous? You know we sort of 9:00looked at all that. And the support

that I had from the theater was wonderful. I mean it's really true, with Jon and

Trish whatever I needed I mean I had. And whatever I thought was a good idea- I

mean I was always listened to, always welcome in their offices, and, actually,

you know I really appreciate that because that's the only way that it would

work. But I think they understood the value of a volunteer. And there's where

the difference was--before, you see, with Richard Block, who I really don't know

very well so I don't know, and I wasn't involved when he was there for very

long. But I it's the sense that I have that he did not value the volunteer like

Jon and Trish did. And Sandy, of course, knew the Louisville volunteers and it

was a nice triumphant, that's what they called it, in that it was indeed that,

and it was a lot of volunteer effort. I mean it just- You know you have to have

it if you're gonna start at something you want to grow like that. TW: I have a

list here of all the different positions that you've held in Actors 10:00 Theatre.

It's long page. JM: Oh, my. Yeah, well, I probably did all that. I love being on

the board. After I was on the board I guess ex officio for so many times, and

then after the year of not being president, I mean I don't think I ever skipped,

I just stayed on the board and they made me a board member. And that was- that

was great fun, I mean, because I believed, and I thought it was wonderful thing

to happen to the city of Louisville, and there were a lot of my friends on the

board so it was- I enjoyed working and serving on committees and all that kind

of thing. So I mean it was- and I think we, you know we were working board, we

worked very hard. Actually this necklace I have on right 11:00now, I didn't wear it

for that purpose- When I left the theater the board of directors of the theatre

had this designed for me--it's a column with the notes on the back--had it

designed for me by Carlton Ridge and then Yandle wrote a poem. They had an

evening where they put me in a great big chair and had a whole two page sign,

"To Judy, on leaving." I was really touched, it was wonderful. I of course have

kept it, but of all the things that I have been to Actors Theatre through the

years and then they gave me this wonderful piece of jewelry and this two page

poem of my history with the theater that that is like a Shakespearean sonnet, I

mean it is just gorgeously written and Yandle I think did it, recited it, I mean

it was quite a production and I was really touched. TW: Where did you all have

this? JM: They had it at Mimi Milton's home. And the whole board was there, it

was for a board meeting, and I wasn't sure why I was there because I had already

left and they were going to give me some- I think I must have known they were

going to give me a little present or something, and, as I 12:00say, so many of my

friends I didn't feel uncomfortable coming back or ??? anything, but I was

really stunned when they set me down in a chair and did this little play, I mean

it was all memorized, it was just gorgeous, about the things that I had done for

the theater through the years, and then presented me with this. I mean it was

just- I mean I really was speechless. I think I only said, "Can I talk ??? ???

left?" I was not- I had no words, I was just so taken. But I mean I've

appreciated it and I wear it with great pride and feeling, so- TW: Carlton Ridge

is a- an exclusive designer of jewelry, it sold at the Speed, everybody loves

it. And it is, ah- JM: It's the column of the theater. TW: Of the front of the

theater. It's one of those famous columns. JM: And in the back she has done the

catch with little 13:00notes, you know like I'm leaving and going to music so- TW:

And then on the back of it it looks like notes from, you know, on a page of the

music, and so that would symbolize Judy's going to the Louisville Orchestra. JM:

I just think- I know that board- I just felt really touch that that they cared

that much, so it was- it was really wonderful. But, too, the way I even- that I

left the board to be on the staff, as I was doing the Junior League I was- I

guess that was when I was- a community based program with the Junior League- or

maybe it was before that when I was doing a thing they called Volunteer Career

Involvement, and I was taking the training about it and they- they said put the

things together- Actually the Junior League generally has a whole lot of reasons

why I've been with the theatre for so long. I got sent away to a conference of

Minneapolis called People 14:00Power where they gave you a whole thing about what you

would do with your time everything this was as a volunteer. And they said,

"Write down the things on a post card of things that- think in your mind of the

things that drain you, and things that get you really excited , so that you can

decide how your best use of time is. So I realized that I was not very excited

about the Ballet Board that I was on. I was not very excited about the orchestra

that I was working on. I was not very excited about the mayor's something that I

was doing and I was real excited about everything I was doing at Actors Theatre.

And I loved the things I was doing with the Junior League and the things I was

doing with my church. So with that in mind they said, "Write this postcard and

we're going to mail it to you in a year, because within a year you should gotten

out of all the commitments that drain you, and focus on the things that you have

said this year make you 15:00excited." So I came home and I did. I got out of all

that stuff, and focused more on Actors Theater and then I took this Volunteer

Career thing and one of our exercises was to write- look at an organization and

look how volunteer could help, as a catalyst, to make a change or to have input-

you know, to see a problem and see how you could solve it and put it into a

volunteer job description that could possibly work into a paid position. It is

an exercise you get. So I remember working on it, and I was writing down all the

things I thought Actors Theatre needed. At that point, in my mind, it was

growing and it was losing a little bit of, you know, Jon's 16:00attentiveness as far

as being physically there at things. Maybe the volunteer interaction with

everything from actors to production people, so that volunteers who just

addressed envelopes were not going to be as excited as those who can have some

way to interact with the people that they are trying to work with. Anyway, so I

wrote this wonderful job description and called Jon up, because really- I mean I

felt very confident doing that, obviously, having been on the board of

associates, and I said, "I've got to do this for the Junior League, I've got an

idea and it's a job description that you've got to hear." Anyway- So I went in

his office and he said, "Great, 'cause I like it, I'll hire you." I said, "Oh,

no. I'm just kidding. This isn't really a job description this is- whatever." He

said, "Oh, I think you're right, I think those things need to be done. I think

you ought to do 17:00that." Anyway, so I really ultimately wanted to do that and I'm

sure that's because subconsciously I did that. Anyway, so Jon was absolutely

wonderful . I remember saying, "Well, I have all these little children, I can't

come every day." And he said, "OK, come three days a week." And I said- "Well- "

He said, "Come three days a week, come Monday, Tuesday, Thursday- . " I said,

"Jon I have help on Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday." So, he said, "OK, come Tuesday,

Wednesday, Friday." He said, "Nine to five Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday." I said,

"Oh, can't, my help leaves at three o'clock." He said, "OK, come nine to three

Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday." He was wonderful. So I said, "Well, let me think

about this." And as it turned out that's exactly what I did, and he was

wonderful because I did have young children and I did have to do a whole lot of

juggling and figuring out help and 18:00everything. And I was going through a divorce

at that time and everything seemed to work, and I will never- I always will have

a warm soft spot for Trish and Jon and Sandy always being there and

understanding if I had to fly out. Course I worked a hundred fifty hours a week,

you know, because I was gone hundreds nights and everything, but that's sort of

how it happened. TW: Would you say that this was when you were the volunteer

coordination. JM: um, hum. TW: Well in the program it's listed as Volunteer

Coordination, and then underneath that it has your name as staff liaison,

nineteen eighty/ eighty-one, and that's when that position- ? JM: Yeah. Um,hum.

TW: Well now hold on here. Actually was seventy nine/ eighty, Public Relations

Development. And then you were the Volunteers Liaison and the Associate Director

was Trish Pugh. That must have been when you first did it. JM: Yeah. TW: Because

that's when I first saw your name in the program changing from having been a

member of the Board of Directors for those numbers of years. JM: Yeah. Well,

that could have been it. TW: That's it! That's wonderful! (laughter) JM: It was

a lot of- It was a lot of 19:00fun. Then um- So and Trish was just wonderful to work

with. We became and we really were very close friends, and I still keep in touch

with her today. Oh, yeah. I probably- you know, she was a very very special lady

and so she trained me, I mean, of what to do. I learned- I think I have an

instinct as far as how to deal with people and what, but she was a master at

getting exactly what she wanted in the most delicate, gracious way, and still

under the- underneath being as aggressive as anything and nobody knew what had

hit them until after they were gone. I have such respect and love for her. But I

worked with her mainly do- coordinating Actors Associating keeping all that calm

and 20:00everything, and then the actors and interaction between the community and

the actors themselves. So it- it went to- it kept growing. And the more excited

I got about it, and the more I did the more the job became. So it ended up,

because I guess that I am from Louisville and had come from the board, I had a

whole lot of contact and could do a whole lot more than just be the liaison with

Actors Associates. And I wanted to do more. So that, coupled with the fact that

then I really was getting a divorce, it really was going to work. The job grew,

and then I began to help with development, and I began to do a lot of 21:00 public

speaking, and I began to do the costume show taking around to clubs. I mean it

seemed like- And then I was a liaison with the board on their work with the

???--Sandy was always the administrative- the financial--but I mean it was- I

always worked with the board on anything that they did and any--the festival and

any of the board parties and that the board- you know. I could have ideas and

come to Sandy, come to Jon actually, I worked more directly with Jon, and Jon

was wonderful because he would say, "Go for it." I mean you know he's very

creative course, and when I would come up with an idea and say, "You know, I

think we need a costume show, and I think it'll be terrific, and I want to get

these models together and I want to do it, and look what it will do." I mean you

know he always said, "Hey, go for it." I mean I rarely got a closed door from

him. And his door was never closed to 22:00me, which I have always appreciated

because I think I was often disconcerting to Jon because I always saw him in a

little different way, having served so long on the board and as a volunteer.

Then to come to staff my relationship with him was really not the same as it was

with some others in the building. That is neither good nor bad, it was just

simply different because we had a history of another sort of relationship. So

where others wouldn't probably go into his desk and pound his desk and say what

they thought or whatever, I would feel free to do that and I have to say to Jon,

he always allowed me to do that. His door was never closed to me. And I remember

in the last years pounding his desk and saying, "You can't do that. And saying

to him, "Jon I am the only one in this 23:00building tell you things you don't want

to hear." And I think that probably that came from that very special path that

followed getting there, and I was at a party- actually I think it was last

Christmas because there were a bunch of Actors Theatre people, and somebody

said, "Now this is Judy Miller." And they said- this strange person looked at me

and said, "Now how are you involved in the theatre?" or whatever. And this other

person who was Jon's secretary, you know, just popped up and said, "She was Jon

Jory's conscience." (laughter) Which I thought was funny because I maybe did

serve a little bit in that- when people had a problem they would often come to

me and say, "Can you get him to change his mind?" or "Does he look at this?" or

"Did he see that?" and I will say that when I said, "Jon you've got to go this

meeting" or "Jon, you've got to write this letter," or something, he really did

do it. He tried very 24:00hard. And Oh,my lord the coffee parties we went to when I

arranged all those he went morning noon and night with a smile on his face so

Trish and Jon I mean really put in the midnight hours for sure. TW: So then from

having been a staff liaison, nineteen eighty/ eighty-one, you became the

Director of Community Relations. JM: Uhhuh. All of that- All of that business

was trying to figure out how the theater and the community could interact in a

positive productive way, whether it was creating general awareness, whether it

was thinking of a project, whether it was having all the acting company and

staff come out to my farm for a picnic every year to get apprentices- a

welcoming picnic. I put out a lot of fires. Somebody, whose judgment I respect,

said to me they didn't really 25:00understand what I did until I left. And I knew

exactly what they meant. For some reason I always had a lot of secret theatre

knowledge of- of what was going on and who was unhappy and who was happy or what

the politics of the moment were being- you know. And I saw a lot of things I

thought I could help, whether it was somebody's feelings hurt in Actors

Associates by someone who was unaware of it. That's the kind of thing I'm

talking about. And I think so often things go wrong in misunderstandings and

miscommunications. Seems to me the longer I work in public arenas like this the

more I'm convinced that it all revolves around egos. And when you're aware of

that and you can sort of see 26:00that, and can prevent that happening,

misunderstandings and miscommunications, I think that's probably what they

meant. I was a real people person working real closely with the actors. Because

I was in charge of making sure with their housing that they were alright and

finding them places to live. By virtue of their having one person on the staff

who really cared about if they had a cold, or where the dentist was, or what

were they gonna do if they ran out of their antibiotic and- Just their real,

down deep problems and such. They would call me and I was sort of their liaison

with- with maybe the outside world, or the community at large. And so then I

would call a board member or a volunteer or somebody that I knew would know a

good 27:00doctor, or somebody that would have a horse that somebody wanted to ride

or- So I did an awful lot of working with that. Now Jon valued that a lot,

because he said. "You know if we have our actors happy--and very often we can't

pay as much as some of the other leading regional theaters, but by having

Louisville get the reputation of a good place to be, if you're well taken care

of, if things are happy there for you it means a lot." So I really enjoyed- I

enjoyed that a lot. I also enjoyed all the work I did for the Humana Festival. I

said to Jon, "You know we ought to get- These plays ought to be read by some

leaders in the community and talked about. And we ought to get the directors and

the playwrights, some of the stars, and have executive luncheons, and, you know,

because there has to be more 28:00feeling of possession of this festival. That they

know about it and then maybe perhaps they have more inside information than the

regular man on the street." So, once again you know he thought that was a fine

idea but he said, "Well, I can't come to all of them." You know. And I said just

wait and see who I can get together. Well I called- Let's see I got Wendell

Cherry, I got Mr. Bingham, I got Frank Howar, I started getting, you know,

heads, CEOs, and people of prestige let's say, (TW: It's turning over so you're

going to repeat yourself. OK). JM: So at that point Jon decided that yes indeed

he probably could make all those lunches. So we did like six of 'em and we- we-

I got the plays to everybody. They read, they came in, we provided lunch, and

they discussed the plays and met with the playwrights and whatever, and It was

real interesting. Now it was 29:00vital because of the leadership positions these

people had and they were very carefully selected. And they all knew that I

think, and looked around the table at a table full of colleagues and felt well

this indeed was an important thing to be doing. So we studied every play, and

like two or three plays each session. So it was that kind of thing. We did open

rehearsals and I would take people to rehearsals that I though would be

important to the theater. I was always up front because I wanted them to know- I

wanted to acquaint them with Actors Theatre. Now anybody- they all know that

sooner or later they're gonna be asked about tickets or asked to give money or

whatever, but I think people as long as they knew that. And then I was sort of

involved or directed all the hospitality- Tape 1990.122.42.1 ends mid-sentence

Tape 1990.122.42.2 Picks up mid-sentence

JM: things like that so that the right people were constantly being invited or

minded or 30:00aware of the fact that things are happy and alive and going well at

the theatre. TW: How early into the, you know, Humana Fes- I mean was this like

say, in nineteen seventy-six/ seventy-seven was the Playfaire, the first

Festival of New American Plays, and "The Gin Game." How-- and then the second,

you know, time is when "Getting Out" happened. How- within- about when was it

you decided to get these people reading plays? JM: It was later, it was not

"Getting Out." TW: Or "Crimes of the Heart"? JM: No, what was the next- TW: And

then, the next one- uh, I don't have written down here. JM: Well, it was along

in there. TW: So it was later on in there. Now what about getting the Humana

funding? I know Playfaire was by the Binghams. JM: Ah, Humana funding. Trish,

Jon and Sandy I think went over and talked to 31:00Wendell. And, ah you know

Wendell's a big theater buff, really likes theater. And David also thought that

that was important and they were the first people to come through. I remember

the year when- when it was made Humana Festival of American Plays, you know,

everybody was sort of shocked, because it was getting so commercialized and

everything, but the more you work in development and fundraising the more

critical that is. So it doesn't really matter because Humana, I think for their

money, probably gets a lot of recognition for it, and I think they're very

pleased with that. And I will also say that it's very important- Wendell and

David never presume to have a sort of "I don't like this," or "I don't want you

to do that" sort of strings onto gifts, and I think that's a- You can't have

that. But I mean people who are interested in theatre sometimes think- You know,

I have to 32:00admire Wendell for never saying, you know, "I like to see the plays

before you- that you're thinking about or"- you know it was really a gift that

went to the theatre. And I remember being on the board when Jon decided that the

theater had to have a niche, that was different than other theaters. Because, he

always had great ambition. He wasn't looking for just another regional theatre

to suit the Louisville- I mean his view I think was always to take place in New

York or to have a world recognition and he made this plan and I remember as a

board member meeting a ten-year plan where all these plans happened. I mean, to

establish a showcase for the new American writer, to establish a festival, to

invite guests of importance to- I mean he mapped this out and the board voted on

it and everything, and it was a good plan- I mean because other than- you 33:00 know

you can't do- Actors theater wouldn't have gotten a lot of recognition doing

Peter Pan every year, I mean- So, now of course it's different and fortunate in

its way, although I guess its really good thing for the theatre at large, so

many other places doing these festivals, you see, that we're not always getting

the best scripts, and like before we got, you know, we were getting all the

scripts. Jon would encourage everybody to write and would have in-house writing

contests and things like that. And then of course when Jane Martin came up and

nobody came forth and everything, it was an atmosphere within Actors Theatre

where you were encouraged to write. And I think that was sort of the thing, then

that we read all of the scripts that came in during the day. Every script was

read three times--one 34:00thoroughly, one you know maybe not so thoroughly, some

people were- volunteers even read or people that we knew read, we paid a bit per

script, but I mean there was- every unsolicited script was read. Now that's

incredible. That's an overwhelming task for the small staff. But it was unique,

and all that kind of thing, I think, created an excitement. Now I think it has

to be lost a little bit simply because we're not accepting unsolicited scripts

anymore, and the thing has changed and the commission process is different, but

you know times change. So I mean you hope that the institutions change along

with the times. TW: So one of these things was the great American playwriting

contest, that happened then, wasn't it? Give a little background on Jane Martin.

JM: OK. Now it's strange that you ask me about that. Did you ask me about that

for a 35:00reason? TW: No, but I think that somebody- I think her first appearance

was in nineteen eighty /eighty one, and- JM: Well the reason that I'm

questioning you on that is: One of the festivals I had a strange man come up to

me, in the bar at the theater, and he said, "I would like to spend some time

alone with you. I know who you are." And I looked at this man and I, "What is

this? It is certainly not in my job description" you know. So I went to Jon and

said, "Who is this man, he keeps following me around and says he wants to spend

time alone with me and he knows who I am. He is sure I'm Jane Martin." So he

said, "Judy, that's Mel Gussow, the critic of The New York Times. Go." So I

remember--this is years ago--I remember thinking well gosh, I certainly don't

want to go out with him at night, I don't want to get stuck after a play, or I

don't want to-- you know, all the things women think of, right? So I decided

that well, yes indeed, the next 36:00afternoon we could go riding. I'll take him out

in my car, I mean show him a little bit of the countryside. So he said that he

has the undisputed truth that I am Jane Martin and that he wants to be the first

to break the story and he wants to talk to me about my writing, and the future

that I have, and that he understands why I have not come forth but he wants to

question my thought process on that would like to be able to help. Anyway so I

said to him- we've ended up going to a place for coffee, and I said, "Look. I am

not Jane Martin, but I will answer your questions like Jane Martin would, and if

you want me to do that I'll just do that forever. But I want you to know that I

am not Jane Martin. So therefore we- he's got his question. I told him when I

wrote, why it was difficult write and what background brought this 37:00play, and you

know my- everything- TW: Did you make all this up? JM: Uh huh. Everything he

asked me I just made these wonderful stories about. The process Jan Martin used

in writing, when she wrote, and where her stories came from, and why she didn't

come forth, and everything. So, I've had a lot of speculation that I was Jane

Martin, and anyway that's why I brought that up. So year after year this man

would come back to Louisville. TW: Spell his name. JM: Uh, Mel, M-E-L,

G-U-S-S-O-W. And he is still a New York Times critic, and we have become very

good friends and- and every year I say to him, "Now I'm not Jane Martin, you

understand that." And every year he wants to know why I haven't done something

more with my writing, where is Jane Martin, why I'm not writing, and I play

along with him, you know, as Jane Martin. Well you realize that Jane Martin

hasn't written since I left the theatre, Right? So we 38:00tease like that, but the

last, the highest compliment I got was, "Well if you're not Jane Martin you

could be Jane Martin, so you should start writing down some of your thoughts."

TW: Did he write an article? JM: He never wrote- He always lists Jane Martin as

somebody that should be commissioned or somebody- He didn't write anything on it

at all because I have had to be- I mean telling each time that I was not. But

it's been sort of a fun game that's gone on. But as far as Jane Martin goes at

the theatre, it was a contest and it was "Twirler" and nobody came forth to do

it, and to say that they were Jane Martin, and so therefore other work kept

coming but nobody ever came forth. TW: So somebody submitted a play named

"Twirler" under the name Jane Martin. JM: That was the first one, it was about a

baton twirling 39:00girl and I mean it is a wonderful monologue and a lot of fabulous

people have done it. And you know I'll never forget Susan Kingsley doing it.

Never. Because it's interesting what different people bring to monologues and

there was certainly definite passion there that exceeded probably anyone else's

perception or understating of what that play really was all about. So other-

Then they did "Talking With," which was a collection of monologues, and then

"Ku"and "Klux" which were 2 plays, which was hysterical. So the work coming. The

last one that was of significance was "Summer," and that was not very good. So, 40:00nothing has come out now for years. And so I don't know whether it will again,

or not. TW: Does anyone really not know who Jane Martin is, or is this a secret

they want to keep hidden? JM: Oh, well, they have to know because the money

keeps coming in, you know. So Sandy, you know, keeps- When her work is done

there's a- Robin- and so- it's an account, so Sandy knows who gets the checks.

TW: Oh, so somebody does get paid for this Jane Martin work. JM: Oh, yes. TW:

But there is a mystique for the Louisville community concerning Jane Martin. JM:

That's right. TW: And do you think they've tried to keep it a mystique at Actors

Theatre so it would stand like that to Louisville? JM: I think there are

various- I think there are various things. Number one: it was at first just sort

of curious and there were some festivals, particularly when her work was being

done where we had 41:00gotten, "Who is Jane Martin?" "I am Jane Martin," you know,

whatever- so that people- and it got to a point where there was so much

puzzlement about it that it sort of overshadowed some of the work, and some of

the other work that was being done. I mean the conversation at the bar, the

conversation at parties, and the conversation everywhere would be, "Who's Jane

Martin? Who's Jane Martin?" you know. So that at that point I think they wanted

to downplay it a little bit. And so we didn't do any buttons and we tried not to

get articles on it and such, or to focus on Jane Martin work. So the thing would

be- the conjecture of the theater would be that Jane Martin wouldn't want to

come forth because of the position or a role/play involving the 42:00theatre where

perhaps the work was being done because of their involvement, or they wouldn't

be free to write because they were also involved other than a playwright in the

theatre. TW: There is a "Contemporary Review" article, December eighty two, and

it is discussing all of the dollars through in-kind services that Actors Theatre

gets. At that point you were the Director of Community Relations, and it quotes

you in this article, and it says, "There was probably one half million dollars."

JM: That's true. No, I remember that. I'll tell you how you- how I come up- how

I did, I guess, come up with that figure. The Junior League established a

certain amount of money for every volunteer hour, and you were to decide if the

project was valid on the basis of: did you use so many volunteer hours that your

time was valued at fifty 43:00cents? or was it valued at five dollars? So that you

could say- you could look at the effort and either use the effort more

effectively, or use fewer people, because you didn't want to devalue the time of

volunteers. So I looked at the hours people multiplied by what the valid figure

was, and I'm sure I got that number. TW: Discuss just a bit the costumes. JM:

Oh, "Costumes for the Ages." Well, Curt Wilhelm was just a master designer. And

we had gorgeous, gorgeous costumes. And I thought- We did it first for a

Associates meeting where I asked- We got it together, Trish wrote the copy, we

got models from the Associates, and we did it for sort of a big Associates

meeting. Then I thought, "Well, my 44:00heavens look what we have here to go to the

community." Every club in the city would like to have the show. So we worked on

it, got models who said yes they will go all over the city at any given time.

They were rehearsed. John worked with them. TW: Who were the models? JM: Well in

that day I remember there was Gail Hinckle, Jenny Foster- TW: So they were

people, not actors, they were people from Actors Associates. JM: Oh, yeah, they

were all Actors Associates. They were community people. Mary Lou Owen would come

in and fit people, and of course I just love Mary Lou but she wants things

right, she wants them there on time, and she wants them to fit it right- You

know she's a taskmaster. So it took a little while for these volunteers to get

used to the fact that they just should shut up and say yes ma'am. But they would

come in and pick the 45:00costumes, and the old masters at this would pick the

lightweight costumes, right? because they were so heavy to carry around. And

each person would have like three or four costumes and then we would do scenes.

They would not talk. but they would come in as the character, and they would

move as the character, and relate one to the other as characters in the play. It

wasn't just like they walked down as a model. They became the scene. And as they

were doing that I read the commentary about costume so that we would talk about

the characters and the costumes and it ran- We tried to keep it at thirty-five

to forty minutes. And we literally took it all over the city. We took it

outside, I mean we went to Frankfort with it, and to Bowling Green- TW: Did you

call each place and say- How did you? JM: I sent a card out that costumes- I

think I said, "Have show, will travel." Something, now that I think about it,

how stupid that 46:00probably was. And we put it in the program and then we sent a

card out "Costumes for the Ages, a show for your club" or whatever, and then I

think word of mouth because the only cost was a donation to the scholarship fund

of student tickets to Actors Theatre. It wasn't a very expensive show. But I

mean we did it everywhere. We went to the Woman's Club of Louisville, we went to

the Crescent Hill Woman's Club, and we went to Rotary clubs and Lions clubs,

because the copy was written for an audience that didn't have to be a theater

student, I mean it was funny. And then what it did, which I loved, was it put a

lot of inside little stories to it. You know, this costume took four- hundred

nineteen hours to put the sequins on it, this costume was made from material

shipped in from- So that they had a better 47:00awareness of what into the costume.

They were always very interested in it, but I think the fact of what went into

building costumes, you know, was just incredible. I mean I just don't think

people ever were aware of that. Sometimes we did it on the stage of the theater

because groups came in. So what we did- we went years doing it. I don't- it's

too bad that it's not going around anymore. TW: When you have these luncheons

for the CEOs and the festivals, you mean they would get to read the plays that

had been chosen to be shown? JM: I would make sure they got their plays. I would

write a little note and take their plays to them and give them a schedule of

when they were to come, it was every Monday for six weeks. And they had to pay

for their lunch because I didn't have any money in my budget for it, and- TW:

Would they go Downstairs at Actors? Or to the- and bring their lunch? JM: No,

they would go up to the board room. Well actually I had it catered and they just

put three dollars in the pot and that kind of thing. And then there would be the

playwright or the director, 48:00or/and, and some actors, and always Jon. And they

would talk about the play. And then they were invited to go to rehearsal if they

wanted to. So that when they saw the play opening they had a whole history of

the plays, you see. And they would have a better connection with Actors Theatre.

See, that was basically the undercurrent of what I wanted. I wanted, for

instance, Wendell Cherry to care about Actors Theatre, as much as signing a

check to give the money. Because I think the first thing when people really give

is that you engage their heart. And they had a ball asking questions from actors

and how they saw their role and a playwright, saying "My gosh, how did you get

that idea?" or a director "How are you going to do this?" because they would

have already read the play. So it worked out very well. We got a lot of mileage

out of it. TW: What about the international tours. In what way has that helped

Actors Theatre of Louisville, do you think? JM: 49:00One way which I suppose is the

basic right is: When people outside the community recognize Actors Theatre as

good theater, it makes people in the community more aware of what's going on

there, and will be better able to support it, or give money or whatever. The

actual benefit from going to Budapest, to the local communities is piling up

very much, other than actors like to do that occasionally and we were always

juggling with actors and casting, so if you could offer an actor one really good

role, one mediocre role, one trip to Japan- and, you know. So I think that it

was used- it was used, I think, as a way to 50:00enhance what Louisville audiences

saw, because some of these tours were wonderful opportunities, and probably an

actor that might not have been in Louisville might have been there for the

Louisville audience. But as far as the people in Budapest and the people in

Louisville relating, that wasn't the benefit. It was just in the way that the

unifying thought that Actors Theatre could represent the United States and

regional theatre was a real plum. TW: When you were on the Board of Directors,

how did you perceive your overall responsibility, as a board member? JM: Hmmm.

Well, I guess- Obviously any board has to be a financial responsibility. I

remember one discussion that I've never forgotten about the 51:00criteria for board

members, and I think it's something that boards need to always think about,

although I don't know that I buy into it. If they have to either be wealthy so

that they can give money, they have to be politically astute so they can help in

the political arena, or have time. And probably if you look at a board member

some- they either need a sphere of influence or they need money or they need

time. And you know, basically that's probably right, or you shouldn't be serving

on the board, or if you don't have time. So, actually I think you looked at it

as you needed- when I- if you call on board members to participate, and help

with the boutique or the dream auction, you certainly ought to get yourself down

there and help. If they're asking for money and you can afford to give money

depending on what amount they are asking, I think you ought to 52:00give. And,

anything you can do politically- of course, I worked so hard on the state

theatre, you know, getting that. And that was quite an experience. But, you

know, I felt like I, as a board member (mumbling)- Well, anyway, that was

something I could do to help, and I really enjoy doing that, so- TK: I think

that would have been in the seventy-three/seventy-four season, and you were

president of the Actors Associates board. JM: OK, maybe that's when I did that.

Because I remember going to- lobbying a lot, lobbying and everything with Jon

and Sandy and everybody, so what we did was try to get our test case, and if we

couldn't convince the legislators to determine that Actors Theatre should be

instead of the 53:00Derby- you know, Danville, the playhouse, Pioneer Playhouse. And

it was a hard fought battle, although there was no problem knowing that Actors

Theatre was a much more far reaching organization, was going to do more for

thestate and really should be a state theatre rather than a smaller theatre, but

Eben Hensonn was- didn't like that at all, and he was politically fairly

powerful and had a lot of good friends in the legislative sessions and

everything. So he was sort of politicking right along. So we made a lot of trips

to Frankfort and did a lot of politicking, and we did a lot of speaking at

committee meetings and things, and the day of the tornado was the day signed it

(laughter) and I came back to Louisville with- I guess it was Bernie Dowen, and

all these guys I went up with, and I remember trying to get something to eat for

my children and I went into Fish & 54:00Chips and said I wanted three dinners, or

whatever, and he looked at me like I was crazy and he said, "Lady, there's a

tornado over there. People's houses are down. I just came out of the gully in

the back." So I wasn't going to get any dinner. So went home and- We were out of

town, you see, and must have followed the tornado, right behind it or something,

because we weren't affected. But the state theatre thing was hard fought, and it

was a strategy designed by the board who knew who, what legislators could be

convinced, how do you convince them, and a lot of it was just trading favors

because they certainly were not interested in theatre and they probably didn't

care personally who was the state theatre. Not a high agenda item for them. So

we learned a lot about political process, let me tell you. And it took a long

time, but got done. TW: What about the Dream Auction? That started in 1980. Did

that- ? JM: That came up as a boutique. Because the boutique we started- I was

on the first boutique 55:00committee, I guess, as a volunteer. Mimi Martin started

that. And then we- There was an idea of- At the end of the boutique one night at

the patrons' party, when all of the people who paid more money to shop before it

opened to the public, we would have a couple of items with the idea that later

it might evolve into an evening of its own. And so, what we did was get a couple

of items and sort of auction them off-- stood up, I mean nobody seated and

nobody- just auctioned them off. And people bought 'em. So, then a move was,

maybe we should try to let it be, stand, on its own and be self-sufficient. So

we planned it and the first one ??? theatre, and we were just shocked at the

money we made. I mean we got gifts that- we tried so hard to have gifts that

were things that were not 56:00easy- you just couldn't write a check for. So we tried

to get private homes and different parties and things that were unique, and that

you just couldn't get up on Saturday morning and go get for yourself. And, plus,

we wanted all the other things as well. But, we did a whole lot of soliciting

and asking people to support it, and now it is a major fundraiser so it's gone-

really taken off and it's established itself as a major fundraiser. TK: So the

board also serves as an idea. JM: Oh, yeah. There are all kinds of committees

and boards to do that, I mean there's ??? and development committee, so whatever

it looks like the next step for the theatre is there would be committees formed

on the board to be involved in it, or meet the need. TK: In terms of that

ten-year plan, did the board decide that there should be one? JM: No, Jon--as I

remember--Jon really made that plan. He made have worked with the executive

committee a little bit, but it was not a formal 57:00board staff working session to

my knowledge. It was, "I think this is what will put Actors Theatre on the map.

I think that we can do this. And I think this is how we can do this." And it was

presented to the board and discussed at length. But I don't think that plan was

a joint effort, I think it was Jon's. TK: So one of those things would be the

new plays. JM: Uh huh. Absolutely. TK: But you were also active in the

children's theatre, in the, I mean in the ah- I can remember seeing you on

Saturday morning, at the children's- in the old days. JM: Oh yeah. Yeah. Well,

we would always- See, the volunteers always worked that. They would bring food

for the apprentices after it was over, they would usher for the free theatre,

they would be there practically to baby-sit sometimes. I was always present when

there was a volunteer involvement. I felt very strongly about 58:00that. And, I know

I was accused by my Mother one time that I should just move my bed down there,

and other people thought that- I got comments like, "Do you ever go home?" Which

wasn't really true because another wonderful thing that Jon established with me

right away, or that I realized was allowed me, is that nobody ever checked my

coming and going, and I appreciated having that sort of freedom that I was never

questioned if I was coming back that night and knew that I could go and spend an

hour or two with my children in the afternoon. It was never questioned. I mean

it was sort of like, "You can do your job, and you're doing your job well, so

whatever it takes for you to do it we're here if you need me, and I'm willing

and there to support you, but you do not have to report in." So that was very

helpful, because I felt very strongly that if you ask a volunteer to do

something, somebody from the organization ought to be there to say thank you and

I know you're here, and I know it took effort and 59:00everything. After a while that

wasn't Jon. Jon did it for a while, but he got- you know Jon's direction grew

and it had to, the theatre got bigger. So I felt like I was probably that

person. So whenever we did a function or anything I was always there. TW: In

nineteen seventy-two/seventy-three you all moved from the railroad station to

the Main Street location. What do you remember about that? For instance, opening

night, or anything in particular. JM: Well, I remember how difficult it was in

the seating, and that Sylvia Traeger- I remember everybody of course wanted the

best seats, and so she

(Tape 1990.122.42.2 ends mid-sentence) (Tape 1990.122.43.1)

TW: This is Side one, tape two, Interview with Judy Lawrence Miller. So, go

ahead, we were talking about Sylvia Traeger- JM: So, it was just a matter of

everybody wanting the best seats, and everybody now was her best friend, and I

mean it was just a trauma getting people 60:00seated. The theatre worked well, you

know, it was really a gala event, everybody was excited, and I mean, champagne

opening and- It was fabulous, everybody was really excited. It was just barely

finished of course (laughter), it was just a real exciting time. I remember how

much how much we always appreciated Victory Jory and Jean because he was a big

deal then, and at the train station and at the theatre. When they came it was,

you know, we'd sell more tickets and there was more awareness and everything,

and he really did give a lot to the theatre. I mean he was accessible and

available and he would speak to groups, he would do anything- and then of course

he was wonderful on the stage. So, all of that went on during that time. So, the

theatre works very very well. We were thrilled. TW: Do you remember the

dedication of the 61:00upstairs theatre at Actors Theatre of Louisville, which is

called the Victor Jory Theatre? Tell a little bit about that. JM: Well I just

remember trying very hard to get all those pictures of Victor together, and

getting a certain- getting them all framed and getting the right ones that would

go up there. Ah, Jon really wanted it to be named Victor Jory Theatre and I

think he had a right, because I think that- (brief interruption, door, voice)

TW: So, continue about the Victor Jory Theatre, just that- JM: Well, I think he

had every right to name it the Victor Jory. It was also a way for us to have a

theatre there that was- you know, we could tell people right up front that it

was avant gard, that it was going to be different, that it might be offensive,

that we might use dirty words, that there may be some 62:00nudity, that we may be

trying something you don't like. And we wanted to make it sort of have a bit of

cache, that if you're brave enough to go to the VJ, or whatever, and people- the

actors loved working in there. Yeah, they really loved that. So we got some of

the finest performances, I think, ever, because being that close to an audience

was a real exciting experience for an actor, so a lot of times you'd get- It

never was a step system, you know, the actors got paid as much, we put every

much as loving, kindness, costumes, production in that so it was never looked at

as "if it's not good enough to be on the main stage its upstairs." It got

everything--it got fine playwrights, directors, and everything. And I think

pretty soon that was- you could tell that because the work was wonderful. And

then just to be so close to it, and the actors really loved working in that

space, and sometimes you'd get your best 63:00actors right there. And that's a really

unique thing to be able to do that, because that doesn't happen very often, very

many places. TW: What about "Tricks"? Do you remember going- Did you go to any

of that? JM: Oh, you bet! I went to New York with it. TW: Tell about that. JM: I

remember sitting at the old train station the first time I saw "Tricks" and

thinking, "This is fabulous." It was in the train station- yeah, yeah, it had to

be. And I remember seeing it and thinking, "What, what fun." And then, they had

all of the to-do-ment that surrounds, "Well, maybe we could take it to New

York." And then Trish made out a group thing where everybody would go to New

York, and the- We went to Chicago for a little while. The thing that happened to

"Tricks" in reality, if I have my story 64:00right, is it sort of got taken out of

our hands. And I think that in light of having to raise money to mount a

Broadway production, to have people interested in taking it, under their

auspices, to New York, they then had a direct heavy hand in changes that were

made. So, then, when it went to New York it wasn't the same show, really, that

we saw at the old train station. Now, the stage was bigger, it was- you made it

bawdier, and I think they thought they had to appeal to a New York audience that

needed more shock treatment than it probably needed and- I mean, they were

hearing from secret theatre that, "uh-oh, it's really changed," or "oh, 65:00 dear,

we're doing this," or "wonder why that?" or just like "why would it have gone

away to Chicago and then go to New York and then there's a change from this

beguiling show." I think Jon's hands were tied. It's just my personal

perception, just conversations I've heard, because I don't think Jon likes the

final production as much as he liked it here. Then, I remember going to New York

with it and the night before seeing "Pippin" and thinking, you know, "We've had

it." Because, you know, "Pippin" was so fabulous. It was from the Washington

Arena and I was comparing it to what I'd seen of the "Tricks" that was- So, when

we opened we all stayed up, and you know we did the bit and I'll never forget

the headlines: "Kentucky Fried 66:00Turkey," because it really was panned. And it

really wasn't as good as it was here, but it was an exciting thing to be a part

of. We all loved going, a lot of people from the board went. We all had a nice

reception for the actors and- It was just exciting. I don't- The other things

that have gone haven't gone as an Actors Theatre production like this did. You

know, the other plays that have gone to New York- and that might have been what

Jon learned as a valuable lesson, perhaps: If you can't really control it and

have the outcome exactly what you want, maybe you need to just send the play

originally produced by Actors Theatre, not a production, an Actors Theatre

Presents, you know. It's just a technicality, but it just- and I've never really

talked to Jon about it, but I would assume that if you can't- Because Jon likes

to control it, and if you can't control it then you don't want to have your

stamp on 67:00it. TW: Talk about some of the other plays that you can recall that

went on to Broadway. Say that you might- JM: Well, "Agnes of God"- TW: Did you

go to see them? JM: I've seen almost all- See, they were not our productions, so

there wasn't a Louisville connection, or feeling like Actors Theatre of

Louisville is going to Broadway. That then became "'Agnes of God, originally

produced at the Humana Festival of New American Plays," so that in another

production, producer, and everything- I mean I went to see them all but it

wasn't like we all went from here to there. TW: Like, for instance, you saw it

at Actors Theatre, and then you also saw it some place else? JM: Absolutely, and

"Weekends in Madison" went, and of course "Gin Game," "Getting Out," "Crimes of

the 68:00Heart,"- TW: You saw all those- JM: Yeah. So, a lot of them went and didn't

stay very long, or- "Lone Star" went. A lot of the plays down there, there was

an incredible number that I'm sure is in your research, the numbers of plays

that are now in books of plays. TW: Concerning critics: What do you think about

the role of the critic, say, in Louisville, or in New York? JM: Well, obviously

I'm very fond of the critic from New York who refused- because we've established

quite a friendship now that I'm Miss Jane Martin to him, and the critic here is

also a very good personal friend of mine, so- TW: And that would be William

Mootz. JM: Yeah. So my comments are certainly colored with- are not objective at

all. I think they both try to see the overall picture and try to 69:00bring out the

positive things that Actors Theatre has to offer this community, rather than

picking out the bad. Now, it just depends on what review you read as to how

Actors Theatre responds, because Bill Mootz, in particular, is full of

integrity. But Bill Mootz is not afraid of saying what he thinks because he

thinks that is his personal obligation to the readership--and it is. And I have

known him to hang back, to not say something, as much as I know he feels.

Because he often tells me what he feels and writes something that is less

impassioned and we will discuss things and then I will see that he's thought

about the full picture. And it's a fine wire that you walk, of being a catalyst

to say, "This is 70:00junk," so that the community knows that it is indeed junk, to

feeling like you say, "This is junk," and the community doesn't support it. Then

you don't have an opportunity play other than that. So he always looks for the

positive to bring along with it, but he really doesn't let- he doesn't let the

orchestra, or the opera, or Actors Theatre get away with anything. And I do

think that the change in the theatre in the last three/four years, particularly

the last three years- And my personal view has been in great part to Bill Mootz

bringing out that there was sloppy casting, that there was a lack of attention

to director's choice- and I mean, I think the board- I know personally, because

I stay in touch, a lot of the board members are still my very good friends- of

the unhappy environment there and I think the Bill Mootz was truly a catalyst in

making sure that the 71:00theatre was turned in a way so that perhaps Jon could say,

"Oh, I need to get back on this track," or "Maybe I better go on the next

casting trip," or whatever it took. But I do think that Bill Mootz really cares

about Actors Theatre, and when you read a bad review it's amazing. I mean I find

it here in the orchestra as well--it's like the critic is really great when they

agree with you, and when they don't agree with you they're just mean, right? And

my job- You need to convince people: the critic doesn't work for the arts

institution. The critic works for the general public. TW: What about the

playwright in residence? There have been times when the theatre has had

that--say Ken Jenkins, or Marsha Norman. JM: Well, that was money gotten from

grants, so that they would write plays that could be 72:00performed on our stage and

would have the luxury of not having to go work at another full-time job and then

try to work at night. So, when you get--"Double-O-seven" I believe Kenny wrote

as a resident, anyway that was "Cemetery Man" - I'm trying to think- He did a

lot for Actors Theatre. It would mean Kenny would have gotten some money so that

he could stay home and write and we could produce the plays, and that's a

luxury. TW: How come we don't try to get grants to do that anymore do you think?

JM: Well, I think that was in the- At that point it was the fact that people

weren't writing plays as much and they weren't sending us plays, and we needed

to find good work. And that was a way that maybe we could interest someone who

may not be able to do that in doing 73:00that. TW: Concerning the purchase of the

Bensinger building. What do you recall about that? JM: Well, we were rehearsing

all over the city, and then we were at Christ Church Cathedral, we were at the

Ballet studio, we were down in basements. It was really sort of efficacious. I

mean it cost a lot of money to rehearse in these spaces, I mean- and they

weren't clean and there weren't enough chairs, and they just- and then you had

to walk to and fro and you couldn't- if you were in the production you couldn't-

It was really a hardship and there must have been four or five different

rehearsal places and during the festival there were probably six or seven. And

they were old rooms and old places that we could afford. And they just weren't

the things that we wanted. So the Bensinger building perception was: we'll buy

it, we'll rent it out, and then we'll use it as a rehearsal hall. And a place

where- there's a Green Room there where people can sit 74:00around, you know, and

coke machines, and small rehearsal, large rehearsal hall, and in the building

where people, if you had to go to rehearsal you could just hop on the elevator.

So it was really a good idea. TW: You probably conducted tours. How would you

describe the Green Room? JM: Ah- Well, the Green Room in the building,

underneath the stage where performances were going on, would be where everybody

would be before or during the play, waiting for their part. There was a system

where you could hear exactly what was going on on stage and you could get from

the Green Room on to the stage in seconds--the Green Room was like three seconds

away from one of the vomitories and it was a way that you could be comfortable.

And I remember we redecorated one time, the 75:00Associates, we just got new paint

and got new furniture and everything, and that's where the actors would eat,

associates would bring in food for the plays during- you know, if there were two

performances in a day. A lot of activity went on in the Green Room for comfort,

and a lot of food was served in the green room for people who were waiting to go

on stage, or coming off, or in between plays. TW: What kind of history did you

give people who were on the tour concerning the Green Room? The background of

it? LM: Well, other than the Shakespearian reason that it was a Green Room, was

that most of the actors in Shakespeare's day, when- There was one group that

stayed, as I remember, in a room that was a green room, so the majority of

actors were there. I think there were also different color rooms for other-

Perhaps it was the large walk-ons of the cast that were in the green room, so it

sort of came from Shakespearian days and we did a whole tour of the theatre

where we took them back stage where we talked to them about the catwalks, the

lighting, and we showed them underneath the stage and showed them the 76:00 trapdoors,

and we showed them the costume room, and where costumes were built. We took

thousands of children through that, and we had tour guides and they were very

carefully trained and we offered tours and they would get to see how it all

worked. So thousands of children really went through Actors Theatre- I assume

they're still going. TW: Oh, Yeah. You know, Judy, there are fifty-million

questions I could ask you. I mean all of these things that you- services that

you provided for Actors Theatre- JM: Well, I loved it, I love Actors Theatre. I

still do. TW: You still go today. Isn't that what you told me? JM: Oh,

absolutely. TW: Did you attend the twenty-fifth celebration? JM: Yes. TW: Did

you think?- Well, what did you think of it? JM: Ahhh- Well, a very dear friend

of mine, Mimi Milton, was President and sort of coordinated it, and another good

friend 77:00directed it, Catty Middleton. Ah, I thought that the people really

enjoyed it and I also those who were there got a sense of time past and the

things that went on and for what purpose. So I thought people had a very good

time. TW: Did you think there was anything that you wish had said that they

hadn't said, or did you feel anything like that? JM: Not really. I didn't look

at it that way. I didn't analyze it as a theatre production, I mean it was an

amateur production, and I mean I think that's the way you judge it. It was an

amateur production. TW: What about the Classics in Context? Whose idea do you

think that was? JM: Well, now for years we had wanted to. And Jon- we talked

about having something city-wide. Actually we talked about it for the summer

where it would be a festival like Spoleto, or something where you could come

and- And as it turned out, the 78:00Classics in Context was in the Fall. And that

makes sense because the arts groups calendars and ??? it. And it's supposed to

be in a smaller context than it's in. I think the Orchestra is the major problem

in having it be too long because of our playing, because we also play for the

Opera and we also play for the Ballet. So when that first grant was gotten then

that put a whole lot more emphasis on Classics in Context. Each arts group got

an X amount of money to be able to promote it, and there is now a staff person

hired to coordinate it and hundreds of activities surrounding it. So, the idea

though originally was Actors Theatre's. It was Jon's idea to do it, for sure.

TW: What do you think about the Humana Festival and commissioned playwrights?

JM: This new- ? Well, I 79:00guess- I have to agree a bit with the people- Of course,

I'm hearing- I understand what Jon's doing. I know Jon real well. And I think

he's got a point. I can see that there was less excitement about the festival.

And perhaps he thought it needed, as Hillary DeRies I think wrote, a quick media

fix, which was sort of a mean comment in the New York Times. But I guess if

you're not thinking of feelings and you're only thinking of facts that probably

it was losing a bit of chace. And that if you the work of people who are in

prominent positions that people would be curious enough to come, that the New

York Times would continue to 80:00come, that somebody--you know, the English critics

have stopped coming--that we would make the Chicago Tribune come and the

Seattle- I mean- And so that's what was done. Obviously the question here is:

Why don't you do established playwrights and forget the Buckleys and the

Breslins, and paying them a lot of money. I just came back from New York and

that was a point of conversation with some theatre folks. Why give William

Buckley twenty, twenty-five thousand dollars? I mean, if he wanted to write a

play he could. He doesn't need the money to exist. And Breslin, why that? Coke

it makes sense. So ??? ??? So, the question, I think, that Jon is facing with

these critics who are 81:00saying: Keep them in their skill area. Keep the plays

right. Have a con- See, I don't know why we don't go back to having a contest

with a lot of money involved. I mean, what if you took twenty-five thousand

dollars and had a contest again, you know. I wonder what plays would come out

that would be sent to Actors Theatre that wouldn't be sent to The Forum, or to

the- You know, I just wonder. I think he's searching for the right thing. I'm

not sure that he's found it, but I think he's aware of the problem and I think

he's taking creative ways to solve it. I don't think commissioning Buckleys and

Breslins and things is the direction I would have chosen. But, it certainly did

bring the people here and everybody would be saying something entirely different

if either one of them had written a dynamite play. We would all be saying, you

know, "What a fabulous 82:00idea!" So, maybe he's just had bad luck- TW: What impact

do you think Actors Theatre has had on the other arts here in Louisville and the

community? JM: Oh, I think a lot. I think at one point we were the only game in

town, and I think that's probably what happened, and I think when they started

having to share the audience and loosing subscribers and such, you know for a

while there there wasn't anybody else doing the stuff we were doing--creating

general awareness like we were doing, getting ticket sales like we were,

thinking feature stories like Trish was, going out into the community. To

think--Number one, to think I was crazy enough to organize 123 ??? parties is

enough to blow my mind--but to think that Jon went to all those- I can remember

times when we would do three in a day. And going out, you 83:00see, to the public-

and Trish said, "Whenever you can get a group of ten or more, we'll come. I

don't care if they have coffee or if they have cocktails or if they have tea or

whatever. All we need is a pot of coffee and ten people and we'll be there." And

you see that's what's suffered. Because when you sit in a group and you see

people that are that committed, or that excited about a project, and that the

project is valid, I think that was phenomenal. Now, a lot of people since have

tried it, and we've tried it since as well. I think it's lost its- It was a time

where that was a- And it was new, it was a new idea. So I think it has had a

real effect on raising the expectations of art, the quality- I think when we

kept saying "Actors Theatre: Best West of Broadway," and we got instant national

recognition, and we got people who have come from England, Rome, 84:00France, I

mean--I'm just trying to think--Germany. At one point or another we've had

people from around this world come to see what was going on at Actors Theatre. I

remember in doing my speech, one of my lines I would always use was- I forget

the man's name, but he came from Japan to the festival and back to Japan. He

wasn't on his way anywhere, he thought it was important to see American theatre

and the place to see American theatre in the United States was Actors Theatre of

Louisville. Now that's- That gives you a lot of pride in what that theatre had

accomplished. And so, I think, Yeah, it's had a real definite- TW: To what do

attribute that kind of success for Actors Theatre? JM: Ahhh- Well, I think the

festival, obviously in the early days, was the way to get attention. Because

nobody wanted to come to 85:00Louisville. I remember talking to actors and saying,

"This is Judy Miller from Louisville," realizing about the third time I said it

they had no idea what I was saying, and I said Lou-ee-ville, and there was a

little resistance in their voice about, uh, gosh, they're gonna go to Louisville

Kentucky for seven weeks. How boring. Or, "This is going to be a low point in my

career." And through the years of dealing with it, and realizing that we had

built an awareness in the New York community that people wanted to come to

Louisville, because they could be seen- There's nowhere in the world that they

could go for a weekend and be exposed, on the stage, to all the top literary

people in the business. I mean there's just no way. You have agents, producers

looking for work, playwrights- I mean there's nowhere else in the world. And

there was something in the New York Times one year that New York- "The Broadway

district was closed up for 86:00tonight. It is the New American Play Festival in

Louisville, Kentucky." So, you see, when you've got that sort of recognition and

excitement, then you're going to get an actor that will come here for half the

cost, half that she'd make somewhere else, because if they got good roles

there's no way her work could be seen by that many agents or producers, and

people would come to see the work that they could produce, and then they'd find

it, and then they'd take it to New York and a ??? ??? from Actors Theatre. So, I

mean, I think the festival had everything to do with that. And I think what Jon

was faced with is: How do we do a balanced season that is true to my art, and

also will sell tickets. And that is the age old question in many arts groups.

And that's what I'm dealing with at the Orchestra. That's what Actors Theatre is

dealing with right now: Do we give them a 87:00season of Harveys and get criticized

for not expanding the mind, or do we give them a season of something that's more

intellectually based and provoking in thought and then find that they want to be

entertained and they won't buy tickets, and then the budget's all off. So, I

mean it is an age old problem. But as far as what put the theatre on the map to

the rest of the world, it's got to be the festival. TW: And what role has Jory

played in the success of Actors Theatre? JM: Well, I mean, obviously, when he's

on he is absolutely brilliant. And I think that he thought, "What can I do that

will make this theatre more than any other theatre? And how do I do that?" And I

think he thought of plays, and then I think he thought of: How do I get people

to write? I think he used his 88:00Father in any sort of favors he had to see who

would come to the first festival. I remember when Trish was saying to the New

York Times critic ??? , "Oh, we think that Jack Croft is coming." And telling

Jack Croft of Newsweek, "Oh, we think ??? is coming." Right? Just trying to get

people to come down for it. As it turned out, they did. Then, other, smaller

publications would see it and Time Magazine covered it, and Newsweek covered it,

and the New York Times covered it. I think he orchestrated all that. In the

early days I think he was instrumental in picking the plays, and I think he

studied them and read them for balance and read them for material of actors that

he had. So I think he determined a whole lot, absolutely, of that festival. He's

also bringing, and thinking, what would 89:00surround it, what do we need to do with

this weekend so that people will remember it. Now, don't forget there wasn't one

thing done that Trish Pugh didn't have a direct

(End of Tape 1990.122.43.1 - Side ends mid-sentence)

This is side one tape two interview with Judy Lawrence now are like to give you

a three game area nnj us about how we were talking about Soviet writer of the

city. So I mean it was. Everybody now. Brandon I mean it was just. Trump getting

people see. Theater work well everywhere gala event everybody was excited I mean

you know champagne no. It was just it was bad everybody was really excited it

was just barely finished dnmt and it was that it was just a real exciting. I

remember how much we always appreciate depicted. Jury jail. Because. He was a

big deal then and. And at the train station and that the theater. When they came

it was you know we sell more tickets better with more awareness of everything

and he really do we have a lot. The other I mean he was that accessible and

available and. He would speak to groups who would do anything and then of course

he was wonderful stage so. I you know all of that went on during during that

time. So the theater works very very well we do you remember the dedication of

the upstairs theatre at actors theatre at actors theatre of Louisville which is

called the big to join the other tell a little bit about. Well I just remember

trying very hard to get all the pictures picture together. And getting a certain

getting them all framing right that would go up there. I John really wanted to

be named Victor and I think he had a right. Because I think. I think. As we.

Yeah. But so we continue about the digital rights yet are just that we have.

Yeah but I think he had every right to they would to victory I it was also you

know way for us to ask him a theater there that was. You know we could tell

people right up front that there was no longer that it was going to be different

that it might be offensive that we might use dirty words or maybe stupidity that

we may be trying something you don't like. And we wanted to make a sort of have

a bit of cachet that that that you know if you're brave enough to go. To do VGA

or whatever and and people look after love working in there yeah they really

love that so we got some of the finest performances I think at. But because.

Being that close to it already is was a real exciting experience for their

interest and so a lot of times you would get it never one of the steps is. It it

you know the actors got paid as much. We put every match is loving kindness

costumes production in in that so that it never was looked at as if it's not

good enough to be on the main stage upstairs it we got everything you got

pulverized directors and everything so. And I think pretty soon that was fairly

you could tell that because of work wonderful. And then just to be so close to

it in the actors. The actors really loved working in that space is sometimes you

would get your best doctors right there. And that's a really unique thing he do

that. That doesn't happen very often dreamy places. What about tracks do you

remember going probably if you got any value vannatter that. I have little doubt

that they have with I remember sitting train station the first time. Sound

checks. And thinking god this is. Have you. It was a nd to be. I don't remember

seeing it and thinking what what phone. That and then they had all of the and to

do it surrounds well maybe we could take it to New York. And then Treach. Made

about a group thing everybody would go to. And. The way to Chicago for a little

while. The the thing that happened checks in reality. If I have the story right.

But is it sort of got taken. And. I think that in light of having to raise money

to do now Broadway production. To have people interested in taking it under

their auspices. To New York. They then had a direct heavy here changes that. So

that when it went to New York. It wasn't the same. Showed really that we saw at

the train station. Yeah stage was bigger it was you know they they made it body.

And. And I think that they thought they had to appeal to a New York audience.

That needed more shock treatment that it. Probably needed. And. I remember

hearing from secret theater you know that all it's really changed over over here

we're doing this or wonder why that. Or just like wildly compilation. I think

your. Change from. Talent show. I think John's hands were tied. That's just my

personal perception just conversations that her I don't think John my final

production. We like to hear. Then. I remember going to yours with. And the night

before seemed. And thinking we've had you know because paperless so bad things

from the Washington arena. And I was comparing it to what I'd seen tricks that

was. So when we opened it we all stay that you know did that bad. And I'll never

forget nndb tracking fried Turkey dnmt may god really blessed paying. And it

really wasn't as good as last year but it was an exciting thing hard. We all

live for them where we are right. The actor. And it was just exciting. I don't

the other things that have governed. I haven't gone and just do your production.

Did. You know the other place going to. You know I now like then what John bag

going ballistic. You can't really probably and have the out. Al Qaeda being

exactly which one maybe you need to just send the way originally produced for

them just data not production. I'm just data sets. You know. This technique just

a technicality but I just and I've never really talk to John about. I would

assume that if you can is John likes to control it and. If you can't control it.

Then you don't want to have. Stay up on. Talk about some of the other place that

you can recall that went on to Broadway say that you might find this guy. You

got to see them or I mean I've seen all those don't there was not a. See they

were not ever got. The. So there wasn't anything there wasn't a little

connection or feeling like. Speaker well. Going to Broadway. That. That then

became. And this of god originally produced a document that's. And the American

place so that another production producer everything. Seal off but I mean it

wasn't like we always do here there but you will be like for instance decide at

actors theatre and then you also saw not someplace else and we can medicine.

Courses. Jane game getting out of crimes mark so you saw all those beautiful

place. And. So a lot of them. Well it didn't stay very long overcoat. Don't

start with. A lot of the place buildings that incredible numbers adventures in

your research plays that are now in. Books. Play. Concerning critics really what

do you think about the role of the critic Saint Louis now or in New York. Well.

Obviously I'm very I'm very fond of. The critic from New Yorker easier because

we established right friendship you know that I miss Jane Martin you know and

the great here is also very good personal friend of mine so and they'll be

William so my comments are certainly color we. If I'm not objecting that off. I

think. They. Well. Tried to see the overall picture. And try to. Bring out the

positive things that actors theatre passed up community rather then picking out

bad now. Just depends on what we you re. As to how the actors theater. Respond.

Because build it in particular. Is full of integrity a bill that is not afraid.

The same way six because he thinks that he is his personal obligation to the

readership analysts. And I have known him. To hang back. To not say something as

much as I know meals because he often tells me what you feel and rice. Something

that is less than passion. Pat and we would discuss things. And that was the

that he's thought about the full picture. And. It's out itself fine wire that

you walk. Of being a catalyst to say this is John. So that the community knows

that it is indeed. To. Feeling like you say this is John and between that

support it then you don't have opportunity. Like other than that. So he always

looks for the positive. To bring along with it but he really doesn't like yes

let the orchestra. Or the opera or the other guy and I do think that. Change

theater in the last three four year degree in the last three or. My personal

view. Has been in great part. Two buildings. Bringing out that there was sloppy

casting that was like pigeons and directors choice that me and I think the board

I know personally because I stayed in touch all board members are still friends.

The unhappy. Environment there and I think it was. Truly a catalyst in making

sure that theater was terms in a way so that perhaps John could say oh. I need

to get back on this track or maybe I better go on the next casting trip or

whatever but I do think that. That almost really cares about actors theatre. And

when you read a bad review it's amazing every advantage or directions well it's

like it's like the critic is really great prematurely down agreement and there.

Me. They try I mean and mind out you know they give you you convince people but

critics is not work for the arts. Pity predict work general public. What about

the playwright in residence there've been times when actors there is had that

say can change your remarks. Well that that was money got grants so that they

would write place that could be performed on our stage. And would have the

luxury of not being able and not having to go work as another full time job and

then try to write at night. So when you've got that willow seven Italy intending

road. Read. Anyway that was cemetery man trying to take he's. He did a lot for

actors theater and it would mean that Kerry would have gotten some money so that

he could stay home and write if we could produce supply. And that. That's a

that's a luxury. I hope we don't try to get grants to do then. Well I think that

was that Edappally. It it was the fact that the people weren't writing please as

much as they were sending. And we need to find good work and and that was a way

that maybe we can interest someone who may not be able to do that. In doing

that. Concerning the purchase of the Bensinger building do you what do you

recall about that. Well we were rehearsing all over the city and we were quite

different ito we were active ballet studio work down. Basements I mean it was

really sort of. And the congestion and costs a lot of money to be Chersonese

basically I mean they weren't. We're clearly weren't enough chairs and I mean

just and then you have to walk to and fro you could if you were in production

you could it was it was really a hardship and the most of it. Four five

different rehearsal places during the festival overly six or seven and they were

old room old places that we could afford and. They just weren't the things that

we wanted. So they've been single building perception wise will rent. Goodbye

will read it out. And then we will use it as a person. And a place where there's

a green room there where people can sit around you know coke machines and. Small

rehearsal larger person Paul. In the building where people can get out of here

elevator. So it was really a good idea. When you were you probably conducted

tours how would you describe in the green room. With the green room at the in

the building everywhere underneath the stage performances. Would be where

everybody would be four or doing a play waiting for their hard and there was a.

A system where you can hear exactly what was going on the stage if we can agree

on the stage. Second that bring like three seconds away from one of the

volunteers in. There it was a way that. Well you know you can be comfortable

with would we I remember we we decorated one associates with pain got new

painful got new furniture and everything and that's where the actors would eat

association branded food. For the plays during you know there were two

performances in a day. A lot of activity within the green room have comfort and

a lot of food was served green for people who are waiting to go on stage coming

off in between place. What kind of history did you get the people who were on

the jury something. The back. I don't know well other than the Shakespearean

reason that it was a green room was that most of the. The. The actors in

Shakespeare's day window there was one group that stay remember in a room that

was a greengrocer enter the majority back when they are I think they were also.

However. Perhaps it was that. The large walk out of the cast that were in the

green room so that's why we came shakes green day's. And we did a whole tour of

the theater where we took a backstage we talked about catwalk. Lighting and we

show them where they need to stage the trap doors in the show. Still room. And

where casinos were built and so. We took that oath children through that. And we

had to have guys that they were very they were very carefully trained and. We

offer tours they would get to see how it all all and so. Thousands of children

really went to active say Rammasun there's still going. Yeah. You know Judy

their fifty million questions I could ask you I mean all of these things. That

you. Services that you provide for actors well after a lot of actors there are

still do you still go today I was alright did you attend the twenty fifth

celebration did you think well what did you think of it. Well. And a very dear

friend of mine emailed to president and sort of coordinated and another good

friend right. Yeah. And I thought that the people really enjoyed it were there

got a sense time passed and. The things that went on for what purpose. So I

thought people had a very good. Did you think there was anything. That you wish

to accept that they have snag or did you feel anything. That. I. That really and

it will look at that we have I didn't analyze this theater production I mean it

was an amateur. And I mean I think that. Are you judging. An amateur productions

what about the costs and. To. You can be anything. Well every year we had wanted

to major on. Having. Something city last. Actually talked about it so. Well yes

festival likes a lot or something where you. And as it turned out. The classical

texts. What. And the father and it makes sense because of the arts groups.

Holders do state employed. And it was supposed to be this close to being in a

smaller context in I think the orchestras and major problem and I think it could

be developed because of our. Playing at a time that we also played for the

awfully like a ballet. So when that first grant was gotten did that put a whole

lot more emphasis classes in context. Each artist group got plenty to be able to

promote it and there's now a staff person hired coordinated. And. Hundreds of

activity surrounding. So if the ideas are original back to stay or leave Jon's

idea do it. Sure. What do you think about the humana festival and commission to

playgrounds. This new album. Well I guess. I have to agree a bit with. The

people quest and hearing. I understand why John's doing I know John. And I think

he's got a.

Begin Tape 1990.122.43.2

TW: Two, tape 2 JM: I think her involvement made Jon able to do what he did,

because Trish was the heart. Trish was the people person. Jon really doesn't

like parties and things like that. Now he'll fake it and he'll be wonderful,

he's a master at it when he wants to, but he doesn't really like to do it. He's

uncomfortable. Trish was the buffer, and always presented Jon and the theatre in

the very best positive light. So anything that happened on that, Trish was

definitely involved 90:00in. Now, where was I going- ? TW: You mean another thought

you wanted to make? Well, now, we were talking about Jory in terms of Actors'

success and about that he used to read all the plays himself in the early days,

and- It might come to you. JM: And well, you know, he taught- He encouraged

Marsha Norman to write, he encouraged Kenny- I mean- and there were other- TW:

Ken Jenkins. JM: um-hm. And I think that what he did was get to know the people

in the theatre community to get them to do their very best and do it at Actors

Theatre. But that was not the direction I- TW: What about Vaughn McBride? JM:

Oh, yeah. Was around for years. "The New Girl," and did some of the other

one-act plays. Still comes and goes a little bit, and still writes some. I don't

think he is as involved with the theatre as he once 91:00was. TW: Perhaps you were

thinking about the fact that Trish's presence allowed Jory to focus on other

things. JM: Well, I think he did. And Trish would smooth the waters. I think

that Jon, for example, probably wouldn't have wanted to do- would have wanted to

do all sort of challenging material. I think Trish probably would have said,

"Jon, we've got to give one play, or something, that's purely entertainment for

this community. You know, we're getting" this kind of talk, or getting that. I

know when Victor got mad and called the paper. I mean, Trish was telling me how

she had to go to the paper and apologize and go to Victor, and- I mean she was

just always in there making it 92:00happen, and be o.k., besides thinking of

different ways to sell those tickets, which she certainly did. TW: As you look

back on your years with Actors Theatre, is anything for which you are most

proud, or that you remember most fondly? JM: I just love that- It will always be

a special place in my heart. I still go to all the openings with Bill Mootz, and

at first I thought maybe I shouldn't do that, but he said to me, "It's my

ticket, and I've been sitting with you for years. I want you to continue going

with me." And I loved to go so- you know. I still go down, after the opening, to

the bar and talk to the actors and to the- And I'm still very good friends with

Paul and Mary Lou Owen, and Frazier, and I'd see Mary Lou and Sandy, and I see

Jon. So I have not stopped being connected with the theatre at all, because I

think I consider that our theatre, my theatre. I don't consider it Jon Jory's

theatre. I think he's been wonderful for the theatre, but I don't- When I left I

never considered that I couldn't go back 93:00because, for one thing, the Board- I

got so many wonderful letters from the Board, and I got such a wonderful gift

and acknowledgement, and I just- you know, I was surprised when I left that the

Board, the President of the Board of the Orchestra called me and asked to talk

to me, and what would it take to move you from Actors Theatre to Louisville

Orchestra- I laughed at him, I thought he was kidding, because the orchestra was

in terrible turmoil. They'd had a strike, and everybody was mad, and you know I

was sitting over there thinking, "What in the world is going on with the

orchestra? This is so terrible." And before I looked into it I called a couple

of board members and one board member said to me, "I think you are taking the

Titanic when you are on the Queen Mary. Why in the world would you do this?" But

it was a challenge. It was something- you got sort of maintaining the theatre

then, and finally they made me an offer that I just couldn't refuse, and the

more I got 94:00involved with seeing the problems, the more exciting it seemed to me.

But that has nothing to do with how I feel about the theatre. It will always be

my heart. TW: You might have told me this at the beginning, but what is your

title here at Louisville Orchestra? JM: I'm Director of Public Affairs. TW: How

did you and Mootz start going to the plays together? JM: Because he was a good

friend of Trish's and Trish and I went to Stratford one year and Bill and a

friend were there and we ate together a lot and went to some of the plays

together, and then we came back and Trish would have a hot date, or have

something she really wanted. She'd say, "Oh, we ??? Bill Mootz tonight." Of

course I adored him so I'd say, "Well, of course." So when Trish couldn't sit

with Bill Mootz, I was his caretaker. And I was always the one that made sure

that, you know, that he had is stuff, that he could get to where he needed to go

to write his review, and that he was all taken care of and everything. So, we

just 95:00became good friends. TW: You mean he writes his review at the theatre? JM:

He goes at intermission and writes part of it. And then leaves immediately

afterwards to meet the deadline to write the second part, and goes back to the

Courier Journal- TW: Do you have anything you'd like to add to this interview?

JM: No, I just have great respect for the theatre and for everybody involved in

it and I've enjoyed all the work there and hope to always be involved in it. TW:

Thank you for your time. JM: You're welcome!

End tape 1990.122.43.2