Interview with Alexander Ward, January 1, 1988.

Teka Ward: Today is January 1st, 1988. My name is Teka Ward. I'm with Alexander Ward. We are at 1330 South Sixth Street, apartment number 14, Louisville, Kentucky. Our topic is Actors Theatre of Louisville. Alexander, you were an intern at Actors Theatre, weren't you?

Alexander Ward: Yes.

TW: What kind of an intern? What was your title? What was your position?

AW: I was a public relations intern working in the public relations department.

TW: And what year was that?

AW: That was the season of 1983, 1984.

TW: What prompted you to look at Actors Theatre for a position?

AW: Well, I grew up in Louisville and my father had remodeled the Train Station as an architect, 1:00and through that remodeling, he became close friends with Richard Block and the people at Actors Theatre. And through subscription being subscribers, we would see the productions and we would go backstage and I would meet the other actors who came from New York to work in the season and the designers and see the outer workings and inner workings of the theater. That and the fact that I was in acting class with a gentleman named Curt Cerf, who was the director of the Children's Theatre at that time, he and Richard Black, who directed a production of Emperor The Wedding, which I auditioned for. Unfortunately, I didn't get the job, but I think that first rejection kept me fighting and kept my interest in the theater.

I started working for Children's Theatre about 12 years old, and then an improvisational 2:00group at the library. I was going about Actors Theatre scene productions. Keeping that in view, I guess, to sort of run down a background of how my theater experience and how it led to Actors Theatre would be helpful in that I worked at Children's Theatre and I worked for the improvisational group at the library. Then I also did a production at U of L. I went to Key West Florida where I performed, to California, where I studied at American Conservatory Theater in the drama studio of London at Berkeley. Key West, I went back to Key West and acted with being able to work at Tennessee Williams and other interesting people in the theater from New York. After the drama studio of London at Berkeley, I came back to Louisville and was interested in the apprentice program at Actors Theatre. 3:00Actors Theater at that time had quite a reputation of developing new plays, and I was quite interested in working there. Unfortunately, I was 26 and that was the cutoff, the age for the apprenticeship program, but they did have a public relations internship open. Now, at that point, my experience was acting, waiting tables, and I had some office skills, but I realized to be a well-rounded actor, to be a safe actor, the one needed to have more experience. And I thought this was an excellent opportunity for me to gain experience. So I set up an appointment with Jenan Doman that then director of the Public Relations Department, and we discussed the possibilities. Now as an actor, they were a little wary because they thought that I was going to use this experience to sort of make the stage, and that since the internship program is a no pay situation, it's nine 4:00months, you sign a contract that they were nervous about losing someone to acting when their primary goal wasn't to learn public relations or theater administration. But I told 'em that I was interested in committed and they trusted me. They saw that I did have some administrative experience, that I'd always worked at the theater and that I'd always kept a close contact with Actors Theatre through patronage and through the early years actually, that is how I began my internship, which was an invaluable experience.

TW: I know that since Actors Theatre, you've been involved with Joe Papps Shakespeare Festival. Do they have interns, unpaid people who work there too?

AW: Well, in New York, it's a different situation. 5:00When I left Actors Theatre, I went to work at Circle in the Square, which is a Broadway theater. It does have an, also has a off off-Broadway theater that they basically rent out. And then I went to Joseph Papps New York Shakespeare Festival in New York. It's difficult to run a theater like that. The New York Shakespeare Festival does have interns, but it's just a handful of interns. They really haven't explored the possibility. So I think they could, that Actors Theatre, the apprentices, the acting apprentices pretty much work as the stagehands, and they do a lot of technical work, which is very valuable to the theater because it is labor that they don't have to pay for.

TW: I was going to say. And so they don't pay the apprentices.

AW: They don't pay the apprentices. But the apprentices, I think apprentices 6:00that I know that went through the program feel that it was invaluable experience.

TW: Well, I know a lot of colleges have an internship that a student does, and you get credit for it.

AW: Yes. And yeah, and it is a credit. I mean, I could have used my internship as an accreditation for college, whereas Actors, excuse me, New York Shakespeare Festival. I started an internship program when I worked in the place of musical development office under Gail Merrifield Papp, because I saw that my experience at Actors Theatre was so helpful that I thought that I could help out our office and having someone come in, but also to give the person experience. And TW: Did you get kids from the local colleges?

AW: Well, interns from NYU or Barnard, I sent to all these schools and people applied. What I aimed for was undergraduates 7:00who wanted to do some part-time work, because the work at New York Shakespeare Festival, the kind of work that we were able to give them was more drudge work, and it was more basic clerical skills that would help them in the future. And also to get contacts in the theater and to TW: Be around it.

AW: To be around it. And it was helpful to these people. I didn't, actress Cedar is a nine months internship and it's 40 hours a week. You are basically a full-time employee, and you do the work that actually that you're capable of doing. The public relations department, I started out doing very simple tasks, but as they were more confident in me and they saw that I was capable of more, I began to do selling advertisement 8:00for apprentice productions and doing layout and some copywriting for flyers and brochures.

TW: Tell me what your hours were exactly.

AW: I worked, if I can remember.

TW: Because you worked on Saturdays.

AW: I worked on Saturdays. It was nine to five, Monday through Friday, and then nine to 12 on Saturday. Yeah.

TW: How many other interns were there in the public relations?

AW: Well, there was two at that time. There was two in the public relations office. There were two in literary office. There was one that worked in Marilee Slater's. There was an intern in the development office, I'm trying to think. It was one or two in the development office. It could possibly have been two. And then there was an intern in the finance office, plus the Lighting and Sound Department, which was considered interns 9:00and the apprentices who worked with the actors.

TW: Lighting and sound didn't fall under the apprenticeship?

AW: No, it fell under the interns.

TW: But the apprentices are the ones who put on the plays, aren't they?

AW: The apprentices are the ones who act Exactly. They work backstage. They have minor roles in plays. They're basically the stagehands.

TW: They really are the stagehands.

AW: In New York at the New York Shakespeare Festival, for instance, you have to pay your stagehands though. It's an off-Broadway theater, and it's a LORT theater. It's a lower scale that than say, when I was at Circle in the Square, the stagehands, which is unionized on Broadway, and they get a nice salary and they're a very strong union in the Broadway theater. But in New York, it's like New York Shakespeare Festival or Circle in the Square. They did not have interns or apprentices that did that technical work.

TW: It probably wouldn't have even been legal.

AW: I'm not sure. I wonder, I don't know the specifics 10:00on that. I don't think it is. I think that if it was, it would've been done.

TW: When you moved to New York, did you find that having on your resume Actors Theatre made a difference? Did people recognize the name?

AW: Oh, definitely. It was through the Humana Festival and the Shorts Festival. I had met so many people from New York already. I had met so many press people working in the public relations department and being sort of, assistant is liaison with the press. And also I had met many directors and actors who would come to Louisville to work. Aside from that, I think it helped me get my job at Circle in the Square. 11:00They knew its reputation, and coincidentally at that time when it came to Circle in the Square, they had optioned and produced Danny and the Deep Blue Sea, which was performed at Actors Theatre of Louisville as part of the Humana Festival, and had gone to the Circle in the Square Theater off-Broadway, which is on Bleecker Street, their downtown theater. It was quite successful. So I think that helped. And then being in New York and meeting people, actually, I had my job through the New York Shakespeare Festival, came through someone that I met at Actors Theatre of Louisville during the Humana Festival.

Bill Hart was literary manager, and after I was at Circle in the Square while I contacted Bill Hart and told him that I would like to come work at the New York Shakespeare Festival. And at that time, there was a position open 12:00in the literary office. And my knowing playwrights and directors and actors at Actress Theater of Louisville helped me get that job because I had knowledge of people on the up and coming playwrights and up and coming directors who worked as regional theater and actually fairly prominent directors and sort of the off-Broadway scene and actors, because it was so much to their advantage to work in the Louisville at that time.

TW: It seems to me that you brought one of those playwrights to our parents' house for Thanksgiving dinner one year.

AW: Peter Ekstrom came, he writes musicals. He's a composer, lyricist.

TW: But didn't he write the Christmas story, or AW: He wrote The Gift of the Magi, which is performed in Louisville, I think every Christmas season.

TW: Yeah, it's become 13:00a staple. But you mean he just wrote the score for it or he adapted for the stage?

AW: He adapted the premise to the stage and wrote the music and lyrics.

TW: But he's not a playwright then?

AW: Well, yes, he would be considered a playwright in the musical sense. I don't know how to differentiate the two. I would consider him a composer, lyricist. If he wrote a play, he'd be a playwright. I guess that's really the only the difference.

TW: So I remember you bringing him over. He seemed nice.

AW: Yeah, he was a very nice guy. I think he's working on projects now in New York.

TW: And did you mean that Hart, you met through the Humana Festival and he had a position at the Papps? Is that AW: The Humana Festival, 14:00they have what they call weekends where they invite guests from different theaters, different producers, different aspects of the theater who might be interested, or actually film and television who might be interested in the plays. It gives the playwright a chance to showcase their work, and they invite these people. They put 'em up actually at the producer's expense, not the theater's expense at different hotels, but they find the hotels for them. They meet them at the airport, they bring 'em to the theater, and they're given a packet of tickets, which they've paid for to see the various shows. And after the shows there's Downstairs at Actors, there is, people gather after the shows and mingle. A lot of people already know each other because they know each other from New York or from Los Angeles. 15:00So it's sort of a networking time. So people, it seems to me, to meet each other and to talk about their work and to perhaps in the case of Danny and the Deep Blue Sea, when I was there, bring it to New York or the case of Execution of Justice, which came to New York or Octet Bridge Club, which also produced on Broadway, Octet Bridge Club and Execution of Justice were produced on Broadway.

Danny and the Deep Blue Sea was off-Broadway. So it gives them an opportunity to see the shows in a full production so they can get, it's wonderful for the playwright, it's wonderful for the actors. The agents come down and they see people's work, people's acting. So when the actors are back in New York, they can contact these agents. So it's a very valuable experience for everyone, and especially the intern 16:00who has a very limited, I guess, exposure to these kind of people, to these people who are working in the theater in New York and Los Angeles are in film. They can come out of college or whatnot. I had just finished an acting school and I came there and they can meet these people and use it later in their career. Say, I met you at the Humana Festival, which I have done.

And without being too, I dunno, ambitious not to word that it's sort of a negative connotation of ambitious. It's just actually fact you did meet them at the Humana Festival and you can begin a relationship. Also, the interns, I as an intern was able to deal with the press, to meet press from an international, national level. To see how they work and how you talk to, and not talk to the press, which is very important. 17:00But I was able to see how the promotional materials were put into use. And as an actor, theater started four weeks before a production, but as public relations, I felt that it started months before and sometimes even a year before putting together a program and selling advertisement for a program and setting a plan on marketing which audience you want to reach with a particular show, how you reach them and the time to reach them.

TW: How'd you all make those decisions? Could you tell who was making some of those decisions?

AW: Well, Jenan Doman, the Director of Public Relations and Mina Davis, who was her associate, would make those decisions to their own experience. I think with the approval of Jon Jory, Sandy Spear 18:00and Marilee Slater, these decisions were made and they were carried out. Marilee Slater would meet with us, excuse me, with the public relations department each week.

TW: ON a regular day?

AW: ON a regular bases, on a, let's say Fridays, or excuse me, Thursdays. We'd have a public relations meeting.

TW: At a certain time.

AW: That was it. In the morning? Yes. And we would discuss what we're up to. And then they also, once a week, I think had middle management meetings, or might've been biweekly. I'm not sure where they would discuss it with other department heads would be like Jenan Dorman and other department heads.

And then on Friday, there was a whole staff meeting where everyone got together. Every Friday. And I could be wrong, it was a few years ago. It could have been regular very much, maybe once a month or once every two weeks.

TW: But you wuld all see each other AW: We would all see each other, and everyone would go around 19:00the room and say to me, I have anything to say. So there was a wonderful communication and there was a wonderful inclusion of the interns. I as an intern could say, yes, I'm now working on selling advertising for an apprentice program.

I'm getting biographies together of all the actors, which sometimes you'd have to do from New York, you'd have to call the actors in New York. They hadn't started rehearsals. Say, I had your resume. I've taken productions from the credits. And I compiled them into a biography for the program. And you'd read it to them and they'd say, yes, that's fine. Or they'd say, no, don't include Marat Sade. I was terrible in that. Or no one really knows about that. I'd much rather have Crimes of the Heart, which I did in Houston or something. 20:00So it takes a little bit of patience and skill, which you learned through this internship program.

TW: And this will be for the information to put in the playbill?

AW: Yes. To be put in the program. Yeah, the program. In New York, they do say playbill. They have playbill and showbill. Isn't that funny?

Go to so many productions. You don't really look at the front of the program. But playbill is for Broadway, and I think it's showbill or something for Off-Broadway. And that is a publication put out by a company which sells all the advertisement with the theaters. Say, here are the actors, here are the biographies, and please include this. They put their productions logo 21:00on top of the play. But with the playbill logo at the top, what Actors Theatre, you have to start from scratch. You have to sell your own advertising. You have to sell the advertising to pay for the printing of the playbill.

TW: Oh, you mean in New York they have a place that's like a playbill company?

AW: Yes, exactly. But it actually really, they have more responsibility in a lot more costs because they have to do it themselves. The Mina Davis one that was in charge of that, we would assist her.

TW: And you would Go ahead.

AW: Oh no, excuse me. Go ahead.

TW: But I mean, you mean, so you all would go to local, like to Bycks or, well, I guess there were some you always knew were going to put in.

AW: Exactly. She would do that. She was a contact for all the programs advertisers. She kept very close contact with them. It was important. And even when I decided that I wanted to do a program for the Apprentice Showcase, actually the first one was the Children's 22:00Theatre Production Dragon Tails. And I wanted to do something. She says, well, we only have a certain amount of money. And I said, well, perhaps I could sell advertising. And she preferred that I didn't go to her people. I'd be competing against what was already there. So I developed a new client. I think it was Druthers that I used.

TW: That's right. I remember that.

AW: For first thing. And I worked with that.

TW: We've got a copy of Dragon Tail somewhere. We need to get that.

AW: Yeah, I can get you a copy of that.

TW: Oh yeah, that'd be great. I remember seeing it. You even do the AW: I drew the dragon.

TW: Yeah.

AW: And I did it by hand without doing type setting because it's so expensive. You TW: Got to get it.

AW: But I learned how to do that. I didn't 23:00actually, when I started there, my typing skills before, I had some organizational skills and some planning skills, scheduling. But through Mina Davis's patience, who was basically my contact, Jenan Doman did give me projects to do. I have tremendous respect for Jenan Doman. Mina Davis was I guess in charge of the interns. And she did a wonderful job. She helped me learn about scheduling. And in public relations, you really schedule backwards. Your calendar starts with, let's say it's January, your calendar starts with May, and you say, that's, I want my program completed. And then you work backwards. Well, I want the second proof to be finished by two weeks before that, the first proof, a week before that. And I want, I want to get all the information. The month 24:00before that I went, I have to decide what I want to do a month before that. So you work backwards. Which was interesting because an actor you work forward, you say that next week I'm going to memorize this and the I'm going to learn all the blocking tomorrow or however the director's working.

So that was a great experience to learn all that. It was invaluable because I could take that experience with me to New York, to Circle in the Square. When I moved to New York, I thought I would have trouble. I heard so many horror stories. But the first place I interviewed, which was Circle in the Square, I was hired immediately. And just from the knowledge that I had worked at Actors Theatre of Louisville, they felt comfortable. I worked in the subscription office there for one year. And then I went to, as I said, New York Shakespeare 25:00Festival where I worked a year and a half for Gail Merrifield Papp and Bill Hart. The literary office plays a musical development, what we call it there. And then I went on to Mr. Papp's office for a year.

TW: Oh yes, Alexander, I wanted to discuss this, the Actors Theatre of Louisville production history compiled by Mina S. Davis and with special assistance from, and you're one of the people listed.

AW: Yes.

TW: Tell me about that.

AW: Well, Mina Davis was very interested in compiling a history and getting the production history chronologically, listing all the productions from its beginning, from Ewel Cornett and Dann Byck, Richard Block to '84. So that involved going through programs 26:00first, compiling all the programs, making sure that all the programs were there in either the archives or the populations office and compiling them, whether they were just main stage or second stage programs, or they were Children's Theatre tours or international tours, putting those all chronologically. And then listing the production and the author, actually, these are all listed by production in which theater. And then I think, and then the playwright, if it's a new play. So I can use the word processor, which I was taught to use there, to compile this list from the very beginning to the end, and to also code it, whether it was a US premiere or North American Premiere, regional premiere or whatever. 27:00TW: Is this on a word processor?

AW: This is done on the Wang Word processor. I learned to use there, which was helpful. When I went to work for the New York Shakespeare Festival, they had a Wang, and that was key to my getting the job.

TW: And it does have the playwrights here and with the shorts.

AW: Yes. For New Productions. I went to specify that the difference that a regional theater will have are the more problems it's faced with than let's say the New York Shakespeare Festival. The New York Shakespeare Festival will put on an original production each time in each slot, 15 slots at the seasonal slots so they have at the public theater, and whether they'll do a new production 28:00for the Shakespeare in the Park, usually three productions. And Broadway productions right now is Chorus Line is the most famous, which is still on Broadway.

Whereas Actors Theatre of Louisville can't really afford to take that kind of risk because it's subscriber base. It has a large subscriber base, excuse me, I'm trying to think of a better word. And it's dependent on these subscribers. So it's less able to take risk. It has to please them. So I know earlier this season they did Camille, which is already been produced and performed countless times, but they almost have to do something like that because it's tried and true. Whereas New York Shakespeare Festival has smaller subscription base. It's called Pass 29:00Holders, and which they keep that way because they know if they get a production with a star like Robert de Niro, in Cuba and his Teddy Bear. But they will sell out and they can sell these tickets at full price. And since it is New York, they can develop plays over a period of time. Whereas Actors Theatre of Louisville, and they say they do the Humana Fest where they have four weeks to develop a new production, a new play, and do the rewrites, and to get it designed to get it on stage.

Whereas New York Shakespeare Festival and theaters in New York, since it is a base, and they have actors, they can do readings over a period of time. For instance, Cuba and the Teddy Bear was done over I think two, three years. They had the readings, production. They're a musical. They're going to do, Betsy Brown is seven years, whereas 30:00Actors Theatre of Louisville doesn't have that luxury because all they have to bring in actors from New York to get the right type and the right ability per character production.

TW: But they spend four weeks prior to the Human Festival AW: for each production, yes. So they overlap. And some of the actors are working on two or three professions, TW: and some of the directors are directing.

So there is more. It's a lot. It's very exciting, but you have more odds against you when you do that type of thing. And it was interesting to see that Actors Theatre is very organized, and I think that's very helpful, how organized it is, especially when you're doing horrendous schedule like that, that Frazier Marsh, who does do that, who does scheduled time schedule. But when rehearsals 31:00begin, when they end, and when shows come about in hiring the designers and making sure that everything on schedule, I think he does an amazing job. It was fabulous to see him work sort of effortlessly, but from where I could see and put that all together, things seem to go without a hitch. I think in all circumstances, and especially probably in the theater where things do change. So if we were doing a public relations project, let's say we had done our season brochure.

Well, you choose certain shows for a season and you develop a brochure and then you send it out to your subscribers. But then at the last moment, you couldn't get the rights to something or that they needed a very old actor who could do headstands. And you couldn't find a very old actor who could do headstands or the one you could find really didn't 32:00want to come to Louisville or had scheduling problems. So the money wasn't enough. And so you really, really didn't want to have a young person dress up like an old person doing headstand. You say, well, we just have to drop this production and bring in another production, which means since the public relations office works so much ahead, you'd have to develop, or if an actor quits and you have to redo the programs you have, have a new name and a new biography. But I guess that's the excitement level that theater is based on. Perhaps it's the same with advertising. So it was very exciting. It was exciting experience.

So really a month before the Humana Festival is in Louisville is when everything starts, all the rehearsals.

AW: Well, that and all the rehearsals, but you had to realize that they've already probably the casting director was casting the shows and designers were designing the shows. And the year before that, the literary office was choosing the shows, reading the scripts and making decisions.

TW: You were there when Julie Crutcher was there, weren't 33:00 you?

AW: Yes.

TW: But now I understand they're not reading plays.

AW: Well, I think what they did last year, but maybe it was the year before they quit having the Great American Playwriting contest. So that meant they stopped accepting unsolicited manuscripts and New York Shakespeare Festival we accept unsolicited manuscripts. And my experience with that is that you get the New York Shakespears Festival, you'd get 3000 a year. And when, I think probably the volume was a bit higher for Actors Theatre of Louisville, because there was money involved that there's a contest. You send a play that you get promised a production. And I think some sort of stipend, 34:00but I can't remember it being a contest. You get more people now to process 3000 scripts in year three, excuse me. It's very difficult, because you have to catalog them into your office and then keep them in files, and you have to keep track of them.

TW: And someone has to read them.

AW: And then someone has to read them and then make notations on the script and say, this play by So-and-so is exciting, but lacks, but it's outdated. This is an unexciting play with a good topic. And then even more details, I think actually at Actors Theatre, what I remember is that they would write a more detailed type evaluation and send it back to the playwright. This New York Shakespeare festival just feels that's good idea for them. 35:00And they just say, yes, we thank you for sending your play to us, but something want to produce. And it's very difficult. But the percentage of producing New York Shakespeare Festival, unsolicited scripts are very rarely if ever produced.

So in a sense, it is a burden financially and administratively on a theater because what you produce is just nominal, excuse me, minimal. But you do develop a relationship with playwrights. That's why the New York Shakespeare Festival was, but at Actors Theatre, they had decided that it just wasn't in their best interest. And that, from what I understand, I wasn't there then. And that accepting 36:00solicited scripts, which is still quite a bit, because you have agents send scripts, or you write a letter and say, I've written a play about this, and you send scripts that, and they say, yes, please send that play. And then you can sort of get a first screening on the kind of plays you're getting if you can trust someone that you know is judgment and agent whatnot. Or you can get a synopsis of the play, see if it's something that you'd be interested in.

So that's what I know that they've done since I've left.

TW: When you were at the Brown School, did you have Marsha Norman for a teacher?

AW: Yeah, she taught me film. She taught film. And actually she was my sister's teacher, but I used to sneak in on her classes.

TW: What year was this, do you think?

AW: Well, this was 1973, probably 1972 to 1974. I remember she was part 37:00of a, a CETA program or a state funded program. I can't remember actually exactly what the program was. There were other teachers that came to the school through that program. It was an alternative school, and it was in Kentucky, which received such little money for education and passed such a compared to the other school systems. United States has such a low quality school system, so she taught us there.

TW: And what did you all do in the class? What were some of the assignments?

AW: Well, she taught film studies, and I wasn't in her class, so I really can't tell you specifically what she did. I know my sister was in the class, and they would use rented cameras and they would film different projects. They would write films and they would film them. And then they would, TW: so they'd actually go film it? 38:00AW: Yes. And they show it to the class. I think they started with animation and other things. And I think around that time she was starting to work in the Jelly Bean Journal also, which was in the Courier Journal.

And then I think shortly after that she, I think it was 77 she submitted or someone submitted for her. I don't know actually the story Getting Out.

TW: To Jon, and then she became a playwright in residence.

AW: Yes.

TW: At one point, because you also in the production history have playwrights in residences.

AW: Yes. She did that. I think that's when she wrote Circus Valentine.

TW: That's right. That is when she did that.

AW: She was in the next season.

TW: Yeah, that is when she did that. You were at Actors Theatre of Louisville during their 20th year anniversary. How did you all recognize that?

AW: Well, I'm embarrassed 39:00to say that I really can't remember. I know that key chains were made, TW: So that might've been, AW: And I think they had some sort of event.

TW: Oh, really?

AW: Yes. But I can't really quite remember what the event was. It might've been incorporated in maybe their silent auction or some other event. I think that there was probably, I'm sure it was recognized that the first production of the season TW: Is the key chain that mother has the one that's the 20th year anniversary. Key chain, yes. Oh, those are beautiful key chains.

AW: Yes.

TW: Well, now I have what you saved for me from the Shakespeare Festival 25th year.

AW: Yes.

TW: They had their 25th year anniversary. I have a pin and binoculars.

AW: That's the 25th year, I think, at the park, at the Delacorte Theater.

It was actually 30 something 40:00years. So they just celebrated the 30th year, two years ago when Mr. Papp started forming free Shakespeare in the East Village in the church, and then taking a flatbed truck around the city down the five boroughs. And then actually the truck broke down at the site of the Delacorte Theater. And there a was controversy about performing free theater that one of the city officials very upset that they should charge for the theater, that the city should get some of revenue, I guess. But Mr. Papp fought that and said, no, we should perform free theater. We want to perform it here. And so with the help of George Delacorte philanthropist and entrepreneur I guess in Manhattan, they built the Delacorte Theater where they've been playing each season for 25 years.

TW: Do you think a theater like Joe Papp's 41:00has to have that kind of a person in order for it to, has to have a strong personality?

AW: You mean as in Joe Papp himself? Well, it's Joe Papp's, Joseph Papp's New York Shakespeare Festival. I mean, it's synonymous, and I think it's sold that way. He does have that personality. And as producer, he does make the decisions. He does make the final decisions as Jon Joy does. I think Jon Jory has a strong personality in the theater. So I think they separate it. I think it may be important to separate it. Mr. Jory decided to leave, or if he had to leave or some circumstances like that, the theater could keep going as the New York Shakespeare Festival is so strongly based on Joseph Papp's personality.

But I think it's been very key and very important because he is very controversial 42:00and he has stood behind his decisions in his decisions of theater. So they are both very, I think Mr. Papp and Jon Jory are both very strong personalities in the organization. Where is, they have good relationships with the community and with their board of directors, which is very important, which is probably the reason they have both been so successful and have continued on such a basis. I think they both understand the importance of an endowment, which most nonprofit groups forget about, or actually don't even have the capability of obtaining that much money to keep it an endowment. But Actors Theatre of Louisville does. And I think they're very responsible to that endowment, as with the New York Shakespeare Festival, keeping an endowment 43:00and operating on the interest earned. I think that's the basis of the endowment. But I think it's their personalities in there that keeps the theater going. And it's continued for so many years.

TW: And I suppose the difference with Papp is that he started this theater and he's been with it since the beginning.

AW: Exactly. It's been his life. It's been after, I think the Director's lab, he came back to New York and he started this with Colleen Dewhurst and George C. Scott, and a core of actors always stressing the importance of having mixed racially performing Shakespeare and sort of a new light. Whereas Jon Joy, I think he came in, he came in at a later date, I think he brought a new life into the theater and a new group of people. And so it's a new 44:00generation of Actors Theatre.

TW: And tell me what you're doing now, Alexander, in New York.

AW: Well, at this point, I guess a few weeks ago, I left a permanent full-time job in Mr. Papp's office to further my acting career. Ironically enough, having come full cycle in the past five years from my internship to working for Mr. Papp. Now I see that I'm going to give it one more shot. I'll be working, doing freelance work for the New York Shakespeare Festival as an associate staff member in the play musical department, working as a dramaturg, which is not a word I particularly like, but I'll be doing reading scripts to come into the theater. And also during research 45:00for the theater and privately for Gail Merrifield Papp, who was putting a book together of letters written by her great-grandmother, who was a daughter of John Wilkes Booth. And doing research for that, helping with footnotes. I am also taking singing classes, and I've maintained a part-time job because to work in theater is not financially rewarding really. So I've kept a part-time job, and it's a waiter at a catering company, and I'll continue to work with them also, TW: Is that called Glorious Food?

AW: Glorious Food, yes.

TW: But you're taking these singing lessons?

AW: I'm taking singing lessons, and I'll be taking acting workshops and sending my photo and resume out, just testing the field and just seeing. 46:00And I sort of came to theater administration as I explained to you before, to strengthen my acting base. And I feel it's time to sort of test the waters and see how it's done. So I've met people, just incredible people in the theater, incredibly important people, and working people in the theater, and we'll see how that works if they are able to separate me from being an administrator and putting me in a new light as an actor.

TW: This is the end of interview one tape one with Alexander Ward.