Interview with Hanna Fleck, January 2, 1991

Interviewer:

We are interviewing Hannah Fleck.

Hannah Fleck:

The great-grandma.

Interviewer:

Hannah Fleck happens to be the great-grandmother of two of our grandsons. Her granddaughter Sally Geller-Weinberg is married to my son Dan Weinberg. Hannah, you live where?

H.F.:

I live at the present time on Gladstone- 2542 in an apartment building and I've been there since 1964. Before that, I lived on Princeton Drive- 1893 Princeton. And you know, Elizabeth, those were really the best years of my life. It's where our children grew up, family was living and it was just wonderful. Before that, 1:00we lived on Baxter Avenue. And, it was an old, old house. In fact, now it's in the registry for old homes in Louisville. It's going to be preserved.

H.F.:

I didn't think I was living in such a wonderful place then. It was lovely-- it was divided into four apartments and it was old. And I'll never forget. The kitchecn, in the kitchen, in the kitchen there were no windows. And when my father saw it he said, "You can't live here," he said, "Get your deposit back!". I says, "Why, Papa?" He says, "Look it doesn't have a window, it's got a skylight!" I said, "Well we didn't rent it for the kitchen!" We rented this apartment because there's two apartment buildings here, and the yards, the two yards are together, it's like a park. My children will have someplace to play. 2:00They won't have to play on concrete.H.F.:

And we lived there from--

Interviewer:

Now what was the name of that park?

H.F.:

It was no park, it was very close to Tyler Park

Interviewer:

That's what I [crosstalk 00:02:13]

H.F.:

Tyler Park. And that was at 1893 Baxter Avenue.

Interviewer:

Now what year was that?

H.F.:

That was in- we moved there in 1933. And we loved it. And Annette was born there. Bunny was born before we moved there. Annette was born there at the Jewish hospital and we lived there until 1937-- the year of the flood. And the reason we moved is [inaudible 00:02:53]...the reason we moved is, during-- we didn't have water where I lived on Baxter Avenue. Sam was down at the store... 3:00he got caught in the flood and could not get home.

Interviewer:

And where was the store?

H.F.:

The store was at Shelby and Market. And the water came-- after all that was close to the river. But the water... and they were already moving merchandise upstairs. My mother and dad's apartment-- my mother and dad were out of town at the time. My brother had her come to Columbus, Ohio because of the flood waters. As long as they could get out they went there.

H.F.:

So they were all moving merchandise up to their apartment at that time, and Sam could not get home. But, and there were people who stayed at my house that lived in the south end of the city-- came to stay at my house.

H.F.:

And across the hall from me lived a mother and daughter. The mother was 95, 96 4:00years old. And the apartment was not as warm as it should be for this elderly woman. And so it was Jake Blostien was at my house-- and Mory Cohen were at my house. They kept going down the basement... an old fashioned basement-- a cellar, you know? They had to go outside to get down to the cellar to put coal in the furnace.

H.F.:

And the janitor told the people next door after the flood... should I say this, "he'll make those Jews move..."

Interviewer:

No, yes, yes. Definitely.

H.F.:

My neighbors told me that the janitor told them that after the flood he was going to make those Jews move. And we were just putting coal in the furnace because of this 95, 96 year old woman. Sure enough--

Interviewer:

Who owned the building?

H.F.:

A woman by the name of Ms. Hayes. And sure enough, in the spring when it was 5:00nothing in those days to call your landlord and tell them you wanted papering, you want painting, you know. So I called Ms. Hayes and I told her that, "Ms. Hayes, our lease is up and I would like for you to do such and such." She said- she sort of hemmed and hawed and she said, "Well...oh....um". She just kept hesitating like that, you know. And she said, "I want you to move." I says, "What?" She says, "I want you to move." I said, "Well why?" And we loved this place because of the yards that came together-- the two yards. It was like a 6:00park for my children. It was beautiful, it was wonderful. And she hesitated and said, "Well...oh...um...your children write on the sidewalk with chalk." What is that, after all? The rain washes it right off. [inaudible 00:06:16]

Interviewer:

May I stop you a minute, Hannah?

H.F.:

Yes.

Interviewer:

This is an interesting point--

H.F.:

But--

Interviewer:

Have you ever run into anti-Semitism at any other time that--

H.F.:

No.

Interviewer:

Like that in Louisville?

H.F.:

No, never. Never. Never. And so sure enough he told her all sorts of stories I suppose about us and because of his remarks to the landlady, we, we moved... which was really a good thing for us. Because that's when we moved on Princeton Drive.

Interviewer:

Now one of the big reasons that I was so anxious to interview you, is because from what I had heard... I understood that your father came to Louisville near 7:00the years 1880. And this was the beginning of the first great eastern European migration. And not only that, but I know that you belonged to Adath Jeshurun. If your father joined a congregation he would have joined what they called the Polish congregation at that time, which is now Adath Jeshurun. And so that means that your family, besides being from that first early eastern immigration-- that's historically that's called the first... you have also belonged to the same congregation for many, many generations.

H.F.:

Right. But before that... before we joined Adath Jeshurun we belonged to 8:00B'nai... what was the name of that cong-- that shul--

Interviewer:

The one on Jefferson Street?

H.F.:

On Jefferson Street.

Interviewer:

Oh did you go there as a child?

H.F.:

Oh yes... and we, you know, went there, see? And then--

Interviewer:

All right let me get back to you though. I need to-- I'd like to know what you did know about your father. Do you have some idea when he came to Louisville?

H.F.:

I think he came to Louisville about-- let's see. My brothers, my brothers were all born in Louisville. I imagine he came to Louisville-- I think he might've come here about, maybe 1875 perhaps?

Interviewer:

Were your brothers a great deal older than you? Wait a minute, when did your parents get married?

H.F.:

Oh god I don't have it. See that's what I wanted to [inaudible 00:09:08] about see he's got all that information.

H.F.:

My oldest brother--

Interviewer:

When was your oldest brother born, about? When your father first came to the United States, did he come directly to Louisville?

H.F.:

No. My father came to-- I think through Baltimore. And then he lived-- I suppose he lived in Portsmouth, Virginia because that's where his brothers and his sister lived. In Portsmouth, Virginia. Now, why he came to Louisville I really do not know. I just imagine that people said, "Oh, the peddling is good in the south" they used to say. And I think that's why he came to Louisville, I don't know.

Interviewer:

When-- when did he open his store? After he was married?

H.F.:

After he was married. I imagine--

Interviewer:

And you think he had no jobs that he peddled up until that time?

H.F.:

I imagine so.

Interviewer:

Do you think he peddled in Louisville or did he go out--

H.F.:

No the outskirts, out in the country. Out in the country.

Interviewer:

Did you ever hear him tell you any stories--

H.F.:

Well yes, he always would talk about the different people.

Interviewer:

Did he have a horse and wagon?

H.F.:

He had a horse and wagon and he stayed at the homes of different people. And most of them, I think all of them, were gentile people and they were all very nice. He spoke very nicely about them.

Interviewer:

Do you have any idea how far from Louisville he went-- whether he traveled in Indiana or Kentucky?

H.F.:

I think I always took it for granted it was Kentucky. Now whether it was 11:00elsewhere I don't know.

Interviewer:

And you never-- okay.

H.F.:

Never asked questions.

Interviewer:

We didn't in those days--

H.F.:

No it's terrible. And I often think that the reason he didn't-- well I don't know... They didn't talk about Russia either, that's the thing.

Interviewer:

Do you know where your Daddy came from in Russia?

H.F.:

I think he came from the same place that my mother did in Kovno Guberniya. Now wherever that is in Russia.

Interviewer:

Yes.

H.F.:

I think Kovno is still-- I mean it's still called Kovno, isn't it?

Interviewer:

Yes. Kovno Guberniya is where a great deal of the Jewish people in Louisville came from, some of my family--

H.F.:

Now some of his people went to Africa. A brother and I think his mother. And evidently they went there from Russia-- now why? I do not understand.

Interviewer:

Do you know when they went there or anything?

H.F.:

I imagine about the same time-- maybe around the same time that Papa came to the 12:00United States or maybe after. Evidently it was after he came.

Interviewer:

A lot of people when they couldn't get into the United States went to South Africa--

H.F.:

South Africa, right. So evidently that's-- I could never understand and we were never-- we weren't too much in contact with them and that's what bothers me.

Interviewer:

No one in the family's made any attempt to find out about that part of the family?

H.F.:

No.

Interviewer:

And you've never kept in contact with any of the Virginia part of the family?

H.F.:

Oh yes, I'm still in contact with them. Oh yes, but they never did either. That's what so strange.

Interviewer:

Yes. OK, now your mother-- when did she come to this country?

H.F.:

I think she came--

Interviewer:

Just guess, don't worry about it.

H.F.:

Mama was born in 1883.

Interviewer:

Do you know how old your father was when he got married?

H.F.:

I figure he-- Papa was-- Papa was-- Papa was born in 1867... and I feel like he came here when he was maybe 18 or 20.

Interviewer:

But you don't know exactly the year they married?

H.F.:

Not exactly.

Interviewer:

Now do you know where they got married?

H.F.:

They were married in some kind of a hall on Jefferson Street. It seems like it was either between Preston and First. Now I don't know where-- Ellie didn't know either. Ellie thought it was First and Jefferson, I thought it was at Preston and Jefferson. So I don't know.

Interviewer:

Now, who was your mother?

H.F.:

Rosa Berman.

Interviewer:

Now, we--

H.F.:

And Bubbe and Zayde I remember talked about Mama's wedding and they had a big barrel of apples.

Interviewer:

Now who was-- what Bubby and Sadie are you talking about?

H.F.:

Harris and Debra Berman.

Interviewer:

And where did they come from?

H.F.:

They came from Kovno Guberniya.

Interviewer:

From Kovno Guberniya too. Okay. Now what I want to know is, your mother had lots 15:00of brothers and sisters?

H.F.:

There were nine children.

Interviewer:

Can you name them?

H.F.:

Sure.

Interviewer:

And who they married?

H.F.:

There was my Uncle Ben. He was the youngest. He was married to Lil Jacobstein. Then there was my Aunt Jenny. She was married to Israel Fuchs. And then there was Uncle Wolf. Uncle Wolf was married to Bessie Muth. And then my Tante Jessie was married to Fox. Uncle Lazar. Lazar Fox. And to get you a little bit mixed up here, Lazar Fox and Israel Fuchs were brothers. Two brothers married two 16:00sisters, but one used the name Fox and one used the name Fuchs.

H.F.:

Then there was Uncle Nathan. Uncle Nathan married Katie Shapiro? Katie Oser. Oser. And then there's Uncle, Uncle Ike married-- he lived in Evansville. He was married to Dora Muth. No that wasn't her name... no that was Ant Bessie. I can't think what her maiden name was. Tante Sari she was married to [inaudible 17:0000:16:49] no--I'm trying to think who she was married to. And then there was Uncle Meyer and he was married to Tante Esther. I don't know what her maiden name is.

H.F.:

So that was Mama's family, there were nine children.

Interviewer:

So how many-- did your mother have a sister?

H.F.:

Yeah, Tante Sari. Tante Essie, and Jenny.

Interviewer:

So how many first cousins did you have?

H.F.:

Oh goodness...

Interviewer:

Did you ever count them?

H.F.:

[laughing 00:17:43] It was wonderful. Boy the Fox, family there were about 14, 15. In the Berman Family, Tante Esther and Uncle Meyer-- there were nine 18:00children. And Uncle Nathan and Ant Katie there was only one child. Hannah Seligmann and she lived down south in Bastrop, Louisiana. And Uncle Wolf and Ant Bessie had two boys-- Bernard and Robert Berman. And Tante Sari she had one daughter and four sons.

H.F.:

Mama had four sons and one daughter. Ant Jenny had two sons and two daughters. And Uncle Ben had one daughter. And that's the family.

Interviewer:

I missed out-- now, the Levine's, did you mention-

New Speaker:

how may children were there?

H.F.:

Five, one daughter--

Interviewer:

Is that all? Wait a minute, no no no there's more than one daughter.

H.F.:

You're talking about Benes-Levine--

Interviewer:

That's not first cousins--

H.F.:

No.

Interviewer:

All right, but they are part of the Berman fam--

H.F.:

Right, that was my grandmother's sister.

Interviewer:

Your grandmother's sister, so we're getting out to another part--

H.F.:

That's right.

Interviewer:

More of your family, so how many of your grandmother's family did you have here in Louisville? You had that sister... was there any other?

H.F.:

All of them that I named. The only one that lived out of town was Uncle Ike.

Interviewer:

Wait a minute, I thought you were naming your mother's brothers and sisters.

H.F.:

That's right.

Interviewer:

Now, but you said the Benes-Levine family was your grandmother's brothers and sisters. Who else then--

H.F.:

My grandmother was Debra Berman.

Interviewer:

Yes.

H.F.:

She had a sister by the name of Tante Gali.

Interviewer:

Yes.

H.F.:

She had another sister by the name of Tante Miasi Levine. And her husband was Benes.

Interviewer:

Yes. Okay. Okay Hannah when you were younger-- or how far back can you remember... can you remember when you were five years old in those days?

H.F.:

Oh sure.

Interviewer:

Did the family get together very often?

H.F.:

Oh sure.

Interviewer:

Did you eat together or did you visit?

H.F.:

You mean the cousins?

Interviewer:

Yeah, were you friendly with all your first cousins?

H.F.:

Oh sure. Oh sure. The Bermans-

Interviewer:

Did you see them often?

H.F.:

Of course. We always did. And whenever anyone came in from out of town from the Evansville bunch they always stayed with Mama-- and there was always room. You know, there was always room in those days so people-- they slept on the floor, you know. And it was always fun. We lived at Shelby and Market and we lived 21:00upstairs. Well at first Mama and Papa had kitchen and dining room in the back of the store and the bedrooms were upstairs.

H.F.:

Then later on when Papa bought another building and another building next door to each other-- the store became larger, we had an apartment upstairs that was from the store that was really a beautiful apartment. Had all hardwood floors and it was really lovely.

Interviewer:

Now-- and then did you have a living room?

H.F.:

Oh yes, we had a living room and we had--

Interviewer:

But originally when you had the kitchen and dining room--

H.F.:

We didn't... everyone congregated in the dining room with a great big, old fashioned, beautiful lamp over the table, you know? One of those hanging lamps that was lovely. And I had a wonderful childhood. I had four brothers... I was-- 22:00but my poor brothers were older than I was and I was like a princess. I was spoiled rotten, you know.

Interviewer:

Did you ever feel like that your family or any of you all-- or any of your cousins even, that they were very poor or anything?

H.F.:

No we never thought about anything like that.

Interviewer:

Were they poor?

H.F.:

Well, yeah. The one that had 15, 14, 15 children were, you know.

Interviewer:

What did that father do for a living?

H.F.:

He was a shoemaker and then he sold a little merchandise in the store. He wasn't a shoemaker, he [inaudible 00:22:39]. They lived on Preston Street and we always went over there. And the minute I walked into the house I was hungry. And then across the street-- I'll never forget-- was Lily Meyers. That's Bob Kahn's mother. And the first thing I wanted in the summertime was a sno-ball and they made sno-balls. That was fun, that was wonderful. It was a real treat to go on 23:00Preston Street.

Interviewer:

Was that near where the old Keneseth--

H.F.:

No. That was near the [inaudible 00:23:13] schul. That was at Preston and Liberty. And Frank Fehr's was right down the street-- the brewery was right down the street.

Interviewer:

Yes.

H.F.:

B'nai Yankov was the schul on Jefferson Street. And you know what we used to do? Of course we walked everyplace, you know, whoever knew of a ride? And, you know, on Friday nights we would go to the schul on Floyd Chestnut and that was Rabbi Getelmann and at that time he wasn't even married. Then I remember when he got married and he brought his bride to Louisville--

Interviewer:

Why did you go to schul there on Friday night?

H.F.:

Well, they, there were the only ones that had Friday night services. And-

Interviewer:

Was this in the years before you dated--

H.F.:

No that was in my teens, I was 13-14 years old. And see, everyone lived in that same vicinity. We lived at Shelby and Market because I didn't live where there was any Jewish people. I didn't have any Jewish friends in those days so I--

Interviewer:

How far away were you from all the other Jewish kids?

H.F.:

About seven, eight, nine blocks and we walked. You know, the Bermans lived on Market Street between Second and Third. I lived at Shelby and Market. I lived at 700 East and they lived at 200 West Market.

Interviewer:

Now I know that you have had some friends since childhood--

H.F.:

Right.

Interviewer:

And I didn't know whether they had lived close to you. Who were some of the people that you have been close friends with?

H.F.:

Well, I-- like I told you my friends... most of my friends were not Jewish when 25:00I was growing up. I had a lot of gentile friends because they live right in my neighborhood. And, but Lillian Goldberg and I, Lillian Berman-Goldberg we and Stella Levine, Stella Jacobs-- we always got together on Saturdays and we'd go downtown to a movie, you know, and that was a big treat. Ant then a lot of times I went over to Lillian's-- the Berman's... we went to the Hippodrome and that cost a nickel. And then there was--

Interviewer:

Now the Hippodrome, is that the one that had stage shows too?

H.F.:

No, I don't think so--

Interviewer:

Okay. I was confused with the one on Fifth and Chestnut--

H.F.:

Oh, Fifth and Walnut I think. The-- I don't recall what the name of that was... 26:00But there was also a theater on my block at the store. It was called the Empire. And everyone that came, all of my friends that came to visit me down there... that was a big treat. We went to the Empire and that was a nickel. Oh-- I used to go there every Saturday. I think they must have come to visit me and I took them because they were continued. Pearl White, you know.

Interviewer:

Oh yes.

H.F.:

Yeah. That was continued every Saturday-- every week, so you wanted to see that. And then, another big treat was to get an ice cream cone for a nickel. Because in those days they had penny cones, they had two for a nickel cones-- and a nickel cone was really a treat. That was really a treat.

Interviewer:

So how often did you get a nickel cone?

H.F.:

Not very often. But I know Mama--

Interviewer:

Did you get a penny cone every day?

H.F.:

Oh sure, yeah. But now, see-- my Bubbe and Zayde when I was little, walked-- when I was eight, nine, ten years old, lived on Market Street between Hancock 27:00and Jackson. And every Friday, I went with my basket of bread and melechi rolls that Mama made and cake. And I used to take it down to Bubbe and Zayde. And Zayde always gave me a nickel every Friday. So that was my big treat for that, you know.

Interviewer:

Oh, yes. Now, what did you Zayde do? He have a store?

H.F.:

Zayde didn't do anything. I don't know. He didn't do anything.

Interviewer:

A lot of them were this way. Did his children support him?

H.F.:

They must have.

Interviewer:

But they didn't live with any of their children.

H.F.:

No, no. They had their own place and--

Interviewer:

Did you see movie Avalon?

H.F.:

Yes, yes.

Interviewer:

And they had the old-

H.F.:

Uh-huh (affirmative). My brother owned some cottages around the corner from the store. And they were cute little cottages and Bubbe and Zayde moved there. And they had a little cottage to themselves and they really loved it and they had a 28:00little porch. It was really wonderful. After Bubbe died and my grandfather found her on the floor, I'll never forget-- And he said, "Oh my [foreign language 00:28:18]" He called her his [foreign language 00:28:18], that's an angel, you know?

Interviewer:

Yes.

H.F.:

And then after that, he came to live with us. And he spent a great deal of time in the store and had a long beard. And oh, whenever the customers would come in with children they said, "Oh look there's Santa Claus." And he used to get a kick out of that. But he lived with Mama.

Interviewer:

Did he become very Americanized?

H.F.:

No. Well no, he didn't trust anybody. Zayde was so cute-- he would take his money to the bank but he had his own bankbook that he made. He made his own 29:00bankbook out of a few pages of, you know, you know, ruled paper, lined paper. He had his bankbook and the bank's bankbook. He had them both. It was really cute.

Interviewer:

Let's get over to your parents now. They got married-- you told me where they got married but...

H.F.:

I thought it was called Turner's. I don't know whether that's right or not. But they were married on Jefferson Street.

Interviewer:

But in those days they had halls.

H.F.:

Halls-- right.

Interviewer:

Where they did get married.

H.F.:

It seems to me it was in the same vicinity as B'nai Yankov shul, B'nai-- Benny Yankov shul. [inaudible 00:29:51] had a delicatessen across the street from there later.

Interviewer:

Did they- do you think they had wedding attendants or did you ever hear anything?

H.F.:

I don't know. I don't know. I never heard them say anything like that. Now when Aunt Bessie and Uncle Wolf got married they did. I remember they did.

Interviewer:

How old were you then?

H.F.:

I don't think I was even born. I wasn't born yet.

Interviewer:

Oh, but you knew about it.

H.F.:

We celebrated--we had a party for Aunt Bessie and Uncle Wolf and celebrated their 40th wedding anniversary. And that's how I knew about the bridesmaids. Sadie Badish was a bridesmaid, Flora Waldmann was a bridesmaid. And Rabbi Zarchi married them.

Interviewer:

Can you remember Rabbi Zarchi?

H.F.:

Oh sure. Absolutely. Rabbi Getelmann married us and Rabbi Zarchi and-- [interview cuts off 00:30:48]

H.F.:

Maisie. Maisie was a good friend of mine. Maisie Grisanti. And we grew up together. I remember I would go over there and they always offered me this 31:00Italian wine. And it was wine-- and I said, "Oh gee I don't like this-- this doesn't taste like our wine." It was real sour. [interview cuts off 00:31:12].

H.F.:

-the rest of the tape.

Interviewer:

Alright. We're ready. We're on now. Did Preston Street play a very active part of your life in your young days?

H.F.:

Oh, sure, it did. My aunt lived on Preston Street, the Fox's. After that it was always fun to go there because there was always so many kids, you know. And [inaudible 00:31:39] the butcher shops on Preston Street.

Interviewer:

Who owned the butcher shops then when you were--

H.F.:

Mister Schraeger-- he was on Preston near Market Street. And then Uncle Israel Fuchs-- he had a butcher shop on Preston near Walnut. And then Schneider, 32:00Schneider-- Schnatter the butcher was on Preston and Walnut, right on the corner. And then my Tante Gali, she was married to Uncle Feinberg. And they had the milk dairy. And next to the milk dairy was where they made wigs or sheitels. Sheitels. That's what they made and that was the Goldberg family.

Interviewer:

Did you grandmother wear a sheitel?

H.F.:

Sure.

Interviewer:

Did your mother?

H.F.:

No. And next to the Fox's lived the Bass'-- and that was Dave Bass. And Celia Gerber, whose daughter is the one who passed away today-- the funeral was today.

Interviewer:

Who was it that died today?

H.F.:

Alice-- she-- the funeral was today was for Alice Pearl Lyons, whose maiden name 33:00was Gerber. And her mother was a Bass. Dave Bass--

Interviewer:

Oh, so she was first cousin to Dave Bass--

H.F.:

She was a niece of Dave Bass.

Interviewer:

Okay.

H.F.:

See, Celia Gerber and Dave Bass were sister and brothers. And this was Celia Gerber's daughter that died-- Alice Pearl Lyons.

Interviewer:

Tell me, do you have a very difficult time finding any families in Louisville that you can't find some kind of relationship with?

H.F.:

Well, we do have a big family and if you go back far enough you can bet they are related and it's so mixed up. Anyway, Bubbe was related-- but Bubbe had Tante Miasi Levine... that was Benes-Levine. Tante Gali... and who else. And of course the Ades were related. They were cousins somehow.

Interviewer:

All of the Adie's?

H.F.:

Yeah, all of the Ades I think were cousins.

Interviewer:

Now, the-- and you think it was definitely through the Ades side of the family?

H.F.:

No, I think it was through Zayde. I think through the Bermans. Zayde's cousins were brothers? Jake-- Jake Berman-- that was Abe Berman's father.

Interviewer:

See I know there was Ades living in the country in early 1880, we had one in North Vernon, Indiana--

H.F.:

Oh is that right? Now who was that?

Interviewer:

One branch of that family.

H.F.:

Because I remember a Simon Ades, a Jake Ades, and an Abe Ades.

Interviewer:

Alright, Jake was in Lexington with the wholesale house-- the big wholesale house. Simon was in Louisville with a wholesale house that covered all of Kentucky.

H.F.:

Now were was Abe Ades?

Interviewer:

Well that was probably the one in North Vernon.

H.F.:

Yeah. I think so.

Interviewer:

Because he lived there years and years in the real early days...

H.F.:

And they only had one child I think, Gertrude.

Interviewer:

Because Madison people used to stop to see the Ades--

H.F.:

Really?

Interviewer:

Or they'd stop on the train--

H.F.:

Yeah.

Interviewer:

And those coming from Cincinnati to change trains would stop to see--

H.F.:

Well uncle Wolf and Aunt Bessie lived in North Vernon.

Interviewer:

Oh they did?

H.F.:

I think. Was it North Vernon? Mount Vernon? North Vernon?

Interviewer:

Mount Vernon is in Illinois.

H.F.:

Oh no, it was in North Vernon then. I think that's what it is.

Interviewer:

It's quite possible because the Ades family lived there so it's very-- quite possible.

Interviewer:

Now you told a little bit about what you used to do with some of your friends. 36:00You went to high school where?

H.F.:

No, wait a minute. Let me tell you, first I went to Sunday school.

Interviewer:

Oh you did go to Sunday school--

H.F.:

I even went to Sunday school at the YMHA on Second Street.

Interviewer:

Now who-- who ran that?

H.F.:

Rabbi Getelmann did. Rabbi Getelmann had the Sunday school there.

Interviewer:

Oh. Can you remember when that began or was it just already there when you were little?

H.F.:

Why, I think it just started when I was like 10 years old, 12 years old, I guess.

Interviewer:

This is an important thing in Louisville's history because my mother was like a decade ahead of you, and when she was a child-- to go to Sunday school, she had to go to Temple... to the reform Sunday school because that was the only Sunday school.

H.F.:

Oh. Then Rabbi Getelmann started that one at the YMHA.

Interviewer:

Did they go... children from all over town--

H.F.:

Yes.

Interviewer:

Regardless of what congregation.

H.F.:

Oh, yes.

Interviewer:

Now this is the first time--

H.F.:

I think so because we went-

Interviewer:

That I have ever heard anybody mention this and it is not mentioned in our history of Louisville, I don't think.

H.F.:

It isn't?

Interviewer:

So I would like for you to tell us as much as you can about this-- do you remember if they had several teachers or were there one teacher? Or-

H.F.:

Oh, I think there were several teachers there.

Interviewer:

Do you remember who your teacher was?

H.F.:

No. I have no idea in the world. But I know that we had Sunday school at the YMHA.

Interviewer:

Can you remember what they taught you at Sunday school?

H.F.:

Oh goodness. I don't remember, I don't...isn't that awful?

Interviewer:

I remember-- this probably shouldn't... could you tell me who some of your friends were in Sunday school with you?

H.F.:

Well, there was Lillian Goldberg and Gertie Feldbaum. No, this wasn't at the YMHA though. I don't think we went to the YMHA that long. Then we had Sunday 38:00school-- by that time Adath Jeshurun had already built that building at Brook and College and we had Sunday school there. See, I was already older-- when I went to Sunday school there I guess I was like 12, 13 years old. When I went to Sunday school at the YMHA I guess I was like 7, 8 years old.

Interviewer:

Is that the reason-- now, did you father join Adath Jeshurun then?

H.F.:

Adath Jeshurun? Not at that time, no.

Interviewer:

You didn't have to belong to go to Sunday school?

H.F.:

No.

Interviewer:

Okay.

H.F.:

I remember Ida Richmond was a Sunday school teacher. Gee I can't think who else. 39:00Gosh. Goodness. Ida Richmond. T--here were the Goldberg boys, they were twins. They were in my class. Also Clarence and Amos Benjamin were in my class at Sunday school.

Interviewer:

Now Clarence Benjamin was he the one that lived in New Albany?

H.F.:

Yes, I think they both did. I think they both did. And I remember I was Hannah in a play and they were my sons. I can see it so plainly--

Interviewer:

Can you remember what Hannah was in the bible?

H.F.:

I don't [inaudible 00:39:31]

Interviewer:

[laughing 00:39:32] That's all right... I didn't mean to put you on the spot. Because some of those things are fun things to remember--

H.F.:

I remember the play.

Interviewer:

And you did it there in the shul that was on Brook and College?

H.F.:

We did the play at the YMHA.

Interviewer:

Oh, you did.

H.F.:

Uh-huh (affirmative). At the YMHA, I remember.

Interviewer:

Yes. Did you ever have picnics then, from the Sunday school?

H.F.:

I don't think so.

Interviewer:

Had the shul started having picnics then?

H.F.:

Yeah. Out at Summer's Park. Those were great. We always looked forward to those wonderful picnics, you know, and we took big baskets of food and that was fun. That was fun, those picnics.

Interviewer:

You went to Sunday school at first at the YMHA. Did it play any other part in you life?

H.F.:

The YMHA was a big part in my life. I always went to gym there-- then was called folk dancing and gym. And I don't know where that picture is of the center any more, but it used to be the first picture on the wall that our class was in, that I was in. We took folk dancing and gym.

Interviewer:

Now where was the YMHA?

H.F.:

That was at Second and Jacob. Second and Jacob. Then I went to dancing school 41:00there also. With Blanche Mitchell.

Interviewer:

Was that real far from where you lived?

H.F.:

Yeah. Well, it was about 12 blocks.

Interviewer:

Did you walk or take a streetcar?

H.F.:

Walked. Except in the winter. Then I took the streetcar.

Interviewer:

Now, when you went for the streetcar, what route did you have to use-- could you get on just one streetcar?

H.F.:

No, I would go on the Second streetcar and transfer at Second and Market to the Market streetcar going east. And I got off at Shelby and Market. And it was, you know, then that was the only way of travel. You didn't have cars and it was nothing. You were safe-- who ever heard of being afraid?

Interviewer:

How young were you when you first went on the streetcar by yourself?

H.F.:

Oh, I guess about 8-10 years old. Because I was always in the center for-- at the YMHA for something. I loved the YMHA. And-

Interviewer:

Did they have any clubs then?

H.F.:

Oh sure, we had a club called the Fidelity club. It was just for girls and we used to go to the basketball games too.

Interviewer:

The Fidelity club-- can you remember what did you do there? [crosstalk 00:42:17]

H.F.:

Yeah I don't know what did [crosstalk 00:42:19] It was just social. I don't think we ever did anything worthwhile.

Interviewer:

Was that like in your high school days?

H.F.:

I suppose so. Or maybe younger. Seems like it was younger. When I went to high school-- see I didn't go to the all girls high. I went there one year and then I went to Atherton.

Interviewer:

Where was Atherton when you went to school there?

H.F.:

Where I went-- Atherton was built on Morton Avenue. We thought we were really in a gorgeous, gorgeous building. You know, Atherton was really something. And I 43:00was the second class that graduated in 1926.

Interviewer:

Have you had a reunion?

H.F.:

We had a 50 year reunion and then it seems like there's not many-- there's hardly anyone left.

Interviewer:

When you were in school at Atherton though, what other Jewish girls were there?

H.F.:

Well there was Julia Klein who was Julia-- what's her maiden name? Julia Klein--

Interviewer:

Was there anybody else that was in school with you, graduated with you? Or in classes just below you that you remember?

H.F.:

Well Stella Jacobs, Stella Levine. She graduated right before-- right after I 44:00did, I think. I remember some of the Jewish girl-- some of the gentile girls. But there weren't a lot of Jewish girls that went there. Maisie Grisanti graduated with me.

Interviewer:

I think it might be a good time for us to comment on the fact... why there weren't many Jewish girls. If the Jewish girls went to high school, where did they go?

H.F.:

They went to the all girls high.

Interviewer:

Because they lived--

H.F.:

They lived... now from Preston, I think if you lived-- oh Gertrude Strahl, now she was in my class at Atherton. She lived on Preston Street. I think that was the dividing line. Then my other friends-- no, Stella didn't come to Atherton, I don't think. She went to the all girls high because Lillian Jacobs-- Lillian Berman went to--

H.F.:

There was Esther Benevitz.

Interviewer:

Now, name the girls that you can remember that were going to girls high at the 45:00time you were going to Atherton.

H.F.:

Well there was Stella Jacobs-- Stella Levine Jacobs. And-

Interviewer:

Esther Benevits, you mentioned.

H.F.:

Esther Benevitz. Did she go to Atherton? I don't think so... And Emily Bais-- not Baiser-- lives across the street from Sally and Danny. She was a Liebson. Emily Liebson. And Tess Leviton went to all girls high. And Hannah Marks and 46:00Ethel Klein, they all went to girls high. But there really weren't many Jewish girls at Atherton.

Interviewer:

Did you know anybody much when you were growing up that lived all the way down on Seventh Street?

H.F.:

No you know, it's funny that I didn't know people on Seventh Street. I knew people on Preston Street. And I really didn't know those people down on Seventh Street.

Interviewer:

Now did you--

H.F.:

Although we would go down to Lerner's for their delicatessens. They were on Seventh Street.

Interviewer:

But that was actually a much later time.

H.F.:

Was it?

Interviewer:

That was after you were married.

H.F.:

No. Before I was married. Because I remember--

Interviewer:

What year were you married?

H.F.:

1929. That was like in--

Interviewer:

Where was their delicatessen?

H.F.:

Their delicatessen was on Seventh between Liberty and Walnut. And I remember the 47:00Friedmann's had a big store right around there. And...who else lived down there? I used to think my brother Mike, we would ride down there for delicatessen and of course my brother Mike-- I never told you about my brother Mike. Oh, ye was just-- see, I had four brothers. Mike and Dan and Harry and Ben. But Mike was the life of every party. He was the life of the party. He was just great and he was a basketball player. And he was a runner-- he ran cross-country at the center-- at the YMHA.

H.F.:

Harry Klein was on that same team, I remember. Basketball team.

Interviewer:

Yeah. What year-- did he go to high school?

H.F.:

Mike graduated from boys high.

Interviewer:

Can you remember when about?

H.F.:

Well, I would say-- I graduated in '26, I think he graduated in 1917.

Interviewer:

Okay.

H.F.:

About 1917 I think.

Interviewer:

Did all your brothers go to the YMHA a lot--

H.F.:

No it seemed like Mike did more than anybody. Mike and Ben.

Interviewer:

He was the most athletic-- was that the reason that--

H.F.:

Oh, yeah. ,He was the most athletic and I don't know why Dan-- Dan would go too but not as much as Mike, of course. And my brother Ben...

Interviewer:

Did all your brothers go to high school?

H.F.:

No I don't think Dan-- he might have gone but didn't graduate, I don't think. But Mike and Ben did. And of course I did.

Interviewer:

Did any of your family get any further education after high school?

H.F.:

No. It was just a waste. I don't know why I never went on to school, you know?

Interviewer:

Well, It wasn't a thing to do-

H.F.:

-girls didn't need that. Isn't that ridiculous? [crosstalk 00:49:00]

Interviewer:

No they didn't--

H.F.:

And I had so much time, it's just a shame.

Interviewer:

Well what did you do after you graduated from high school?

H.F.:

Nothing too much. You know, just parties and things like that.

Interviewer:

But during the day-- did you help your parents with the store?

H.F.:

Yeah a little bit.

Interviewer:

You didn't go out to get a job?

H.F.:

My brother Mike said to me-- I used to go to the cash drawer and help myself. And my brother Mike said to me, "You'll never be able to make a dollar." And I didn't say anything. I thought, "I'll show you." So sure enough I went downtown-- I'll never forget, and I went into Fleischers... they had a dress shop. And I got a job. And I was about 18 or 17--

Interviewer:

Now where was Fleischers? [crosstalk 00:49:49]

H.F.:

Fleischers was on Fourth Street.

Interviewer:

Now see, I remember when they were next door to Stewart's.

H.F.:

That's right, that's where they were. They were a few doors from Stewart's.

Interviewer:

Now what year was that then?

H.F.:

Well let's see... I graduated in '26, so I guess that had to be '27. And I got married in '29...

Interviewer:

We're getting up there so now we've got to find out how you met Sam.

H.F.:

How did I meet Sam? My brother Harry was married to Goldie Fleck. They ran off and got married in 1919.

Interviewer:

Where was Goldie from?

H.F.:

She was from Cincinn- no, no they lived in Louisville-- her father managed a Dan Cohen shoe store. In fact, they were in the family... the Dan Cohen family. And they ran off and got married in 1919, I think it was. And then they were re-married at Sher's restaurant.

Interviewer:

Can I digress for just one minute?

H.F.:

Yes.

Interviewer:

Why did people run off and get married?

H.F.:

Well they were just wild. My brother Harry and Goldie-- today you would call 51:00them, you know-

Interviewer:

Well they weren't the only ones that did it--

H.F.:

You knows there's people that did the same thing?

Interviewer:

Yes, I know Ruth Meyers did that.

H.F.:

Ruth Meyers?

Interviewer:

Do you remember Ruth Meyers?

H.F.:

Miles Cohen?

Interviewer:

No, Ruth Meyers was the one... if you can remember back in the early 20's, maybe-- she used to be at the center working. She taught a lot of the immigrants English.

H.F.:

Oh. Oh did she?

Interviewer:

And she married a dentist by the name of Ziglar. But you just don't remember.

H.F.:

No.

Interviewer:

Now the people who immigrated in those years... '22, '23 they remember her. [crosstalk 00:51:40] Go ahead.

H.F.:

So anyway, they got married. Well, s, noee she was German... she wasn't orthodox. So maybe that's the reason-- I don't know.

Interviewer:

The Fleck's weren't orthodox?

H.F.:

No, no. They were German-Jewish.

Interviewer:

Oh really?

H.F.:

Uh-huh (affirmative). They're reform. They went to the temple on Second Street. 52:00So maybe-- I don't know why they ran off and got married.

Interviewer:

Did your husband's family-- were they all- were they reform too?

H.F.:

Yeah.

Interviewer:

Okay. Because I knew some of the Fleck family in Indiana-- Marion, Indiana.

H.F.:

Those are cousins. My husband's cousins.

Interviewer:

I didn't realize that--

H.F.:

They always went to the temple.

Interviewer:

Well do you think they came from Germany or do you think--

H.F.:

Yes, my mother-in-law-- now the Fleck's did not, but I know my mother-in-law did. My mother-in-law was Theresa. And she was born in New York. And so was her mother born in New York. I guess they went to the-- you know they were German-Jewish. Because they were a few generations born in New York so they had to be.

Interviewer:

It's interesting and good about relating to Jewish history here is that you have your descendants that four generations and then they can go back two or three generations beyond you that are Americans.

H.F.:

Right.

Interviewer:

And there has been no problem about most of them staying Jewish.

H.F.:

Oh no. They all stay Jewish.

Interviewer:

Because we tend to think that after so many generations in this country, that they get assimilated to the point where they won't stay Jewish. But this doesn't seem to be true.

H.F.:

No, not in my family. It certainly was not true, no. So then my sister-in-law Goldie's mother was a widow and she was very lonely and she always wanted me to come visit her. Well, I never wanted to, you know. She was an elderly woman, why 54:00did I want to go visit?

H.F.:

Well finally I did. And my parents said, "You have to go visit her, she's lonely. It'd be so nice if you went." So sure enough, I did-- and she had a bridge party that night with her nieces and nephews. And-

Interviewer:

Now where was that?

H.F.:

This was in Cincinnati. This was in Cincinnati. And we played party bridge. Everyone changed-- and that's when I met my husband. He was one of her nephews. So see, two cousins married a sister and brother. Goldie and Sam were first cousins... and she was married to my brother Harry-- my oldest brother.

Interviewer:

Now what was Sam doing then?

H.F.:

He was working for Row Shirt Company. He was on the road.

Interviewer:

Did he travel in Ohio?

H.F.:

He traveled in West Virginia and Ohio.

Interviewer:

How long did you know him before you became engaged?

H.F.:

Not very long. I knew that very night. [laughing 00:55:08] I did. I looked at him... I knew that was the fella I was going to marry.

Interviewer:

Well, how old were you then?

H.F.:

I was 19.

Interviewer:

And how old was Sam?

H.F.:

He was 28.

Interviewer:

He was 28? Did you feel like there was a big age difference or anything?

H.F.:

No. No we didn't.

Interviewer:

So the romance didn't take long then?

H.F.:

Well it was a year.

Interviewer:

Oh it was a year.

H.F.:

Well I went out with him in Cincinnati and-- let's turn this off...

Interviewer:

No I want you to talk. Did he visit here in Louisville--[crosstalk 00:55:53]

H.F.:

I was supposed to go out with somebody else there. And so he said, "If you break the date, I'll take you out." No, the first night I met him, he asked me for a 56:00date. And I said, "Oh, I'm busy." And after they all left... Ant Ray said to me--she wasn't my ant then. She said, "Why'd you tell him you were busy?" I said, "Well I don't accept a date the first time a fella asks me." And so-

Interviewer:

That was customary in those days.

H.F.:

Really, was it??

Interviewer:

Oh yeah.

H.F.:

You had to act like you were so popular. So then he went out on the road and he called me long distance, from West Virginia someplace and I went out with him. Then I had another date with this other fella and he said, "If you break that date, I'll take you out." So I did, I broke the date and I went out with him again. Then I said, "Well, if you're ever in Louisville you can give me a call." He said, "When I go to see a girl out of town, it's because I'm serious." I 57:00said, "Oh, well..." you know.

H.F.:

So sure enough, I never heard from him until that summer. This was in January... and that summer I got a postal card from him saying that he was in New York with his mother. That really hit [laughing 00:57:17]....

H.F.:

So the following year my brother Dan and Devore were married. Sounds silly--

Interviewer:

Now who was Devore?

H.F.:

Devore Benevitz. That was my sister-in-law. And my father knew Sam's folks because my brother was married to his cousin and he would always get in touch with Sam's dad through business. They were in the same kind of business and worried about this, that and the other.

H.F.:

So sure enough, they came to Louisville one Sunday... and I wasn't even here. I was in Evansville, Indiana visiting my cousins. And so then, my brother and 58:00Devore were married in February, and so my parents-- like I said, my dad knew his father-- invited them to the wedding. That's really reaching out, isn't it? But they were invited. Instead of them responding to invitation, Sam-- I got a letter from him saying he was coming to the wedding. He wasn't even invited, but he was coming to the wedding.

H.F.:

So sure enough, I went to the station at Seventh and River to meet him-- and I was all excited. And so, he-- I don't even remember where he stayed. But, anyway the wedding was on Sunday night at the Kentucky and I stood up with Devore's cousin... Frock. I can't think of what his first name was.

H.F.:

The night before, Saturday night we went to Loewes...and if you recall they had that moving sky, you know, with the stars and the moon. That was so romantic. That night after we got home-- we lived on Lauderdale then... we lived in a duplex and we were sitting on the front porch until four o'clock in the morning. And he asked me to marry him. I hadn't seen him for a year and I accepted just like that. I was so in love with him.

Interviewer:

Tell us a little bit about your wedding.

H.F.:

Well, wait a minute... Sam spoke to my father the night of Dan and Devore's wedding on the Sunday night.

Interviewer:

The same night he lost-- he gained a daughter-in-law his daughter's to be husband came to him... that's a wonderful feeling for a Jewish father, isn't it?

H.F.:

It really is. It was wonderful.

Interviewer:

And he asked for your hand in marriage.

H.F.:

Right, uh-huh (affirmative).

Interviewer:

And what did your father say?

H.F.:

He must have said it was okay [laughing 01:00:12]. And so then we were engaged from that February until December. I remember I went to Cincinnati-- he wanted me to come there to get-- he wanted me to help him pick out the ring. There were friends of his family who were in the jewelry business-- who were in the diamond... they made the rings. It was Litwin, Jake Litwin-- they were in the jewelry business in a little loft, I remember... in Cincinnati. And they sold to Lemmon's and all the fine places in Louisville. And so I remember that's where I picked out my ring.

H.F.:

Oh I see-- so I remember coming back on the train to Louisville and he said, 61:00"Honey, be careful now with that ring!" [laughing 01:01:02] I have it here now...

Interviewer:

It's very beautiful.

H.F.:

Uh-huh (affirmative). And that was my wedding band.

Interviewer:

Hannah is wearing it on a chain on her neck now and it is set very beautifully. Can you describe it? You can do a better description than I can.

H.F.:

Well the ring was magnificent.

Interviewer:

Were the other two diamonds with the ring or--

H.F.:

Yes. And I should have put them all together but I didn't.

Interviewer:

Well it's set very beautifully.

H.F.:

Yes, but my wedding band I think is the most beautiful. I've never seen another one like it. And you know, as I told you before, Rabbi Getelmann and Rabbi Zarchi married us