Interview with Beatrice Ringol, January 2, 1991

E.W.:

You sound as if you must have been quite popular, Bea.

Beatrice Ringol:

Oh, I had a few boyfriends.

Elizabeth Weinberg:

It was a fun time, wasn't it, in those days?

B.R.:

Yes, it was a fun time because I was in college and I used to know all the boys in medical school and dental school and they all invited me to their dances. And then there was the time when the YMHA had a basketball team. They had an intermural league. That was before University of Louisville had a basketball team. And that was the social event, going to those basketball games. And we ran around kind of in a crowd. And if one of the boys didn't ask me another one would ask me. But I got to all of the games. And like I said, my house was - my 1:00yard was a hang out as soon as the weather got nice. There was no air conditioning, and everybody hung around out, sometimes there would be 20 of them out on the front lawn. So I never was lacking for a date, for somebody to take me. So if one didn't take me another one did and we always went in a group.

B.R.:

The house I lived in was different from the houses now. I imagine it was built... Well we moved there, that was about 1922. I imagine the house was built in about 1900. The bedrooms were upstairs and the rooms were large and spacious but they were different from the way the houses are built now. And if they came inside there was plenty of room to run around. And I had a little sister, Shirley. When I was 16, she was three, and all of my friends loved her and they 2:00spoiled her. And one of the reason they were hanging around so much, I was also the babysitter aside from being the phone sitter. I was the babysitter and I had to be home. And they loved to play with her and they hung around - and I was home so they all hung around in my yard.

B.R.:

But when we moved to Alta Avenue we moved into a bungalow type house, which is more conformed more to the houses now, except they're not building them like that now. And then we had the front porch. And I miss a front porch. I think there's nothing like a porch. I think they made a big mistake when they started having air conditioning and taking the porches off of the houses because we used to sit on the porch and watch the neighbors walk down the street. And there was always activity. You don't have that when you're closed... I'm not talking about the way I live now in the apartment, but the houses I lived in during my 3:00marriage after air conditioning came into being, when we didn't have any porches and didn't see our neighbors. And I missed that.

E.W.:

You don't have anybody that comes to see you unless they're invited.

B.R.:

That's right. We used to just drop in on people.

E.W.:

And your mother probably had lots of family that would just come on over, they didn't have to be invited for dinner, did they?

B.R.:

They had to be invited for dinner, you bet they did. They didn't come to dinner unless they were invited.

E.W.:

Okay. Were you a flapper?

B.R.:

No, I was never a flapper. I was always shy, believe it or not.

E.W.:

But did you wear those long-waisted dresses? Or were you too young for that?

B.R.:

I think I was a little too young for that.

E.W.:

Can you remember the Depression?

B.R.:

Oh yes, I remember the Depression. We got along very well during the Depression 4:00because my father wasn't hit by it like a lot of people who lost their jobs. And he always had his practice when people paid him.

E.W.:

What year did you and Louis get married?

B.R.:

We married December 1935. We just celebrated our 55th wedding anniversary.

E.W.:

So actually you got married... The Depression wasn't-

B.R.:

In the depths of the Depression. Louis had been out of dental school for three, well two and a half years. It would have been three years in June. And that's why we never went together steady because he didn't have any money and he was trying to get started and I just dated other boys. We never really settled down and went steady. We got engaged and that was two months before we got married.

E.W.:

... where was his first office?

B.R.:

His first office was in the Brown building. He didn't have any money to set up an office and he went to work in another man's office who was feeling the Depression and he let him work from four o'clock until eight in the afternoon. So that's how he got in. Then finally he had two chairs and finally he got the other chair, and he stayed there in the Brown building for seven years. And then he moved to the Starks building and he was in the Starks building about 23 years, 23 or 24 years. And then he moved out on Bardstown Road and he's been there ever since.

E.W.:

Where on Bardstown Road?

B.R.:

He's opposite the cinema, in that building. It used to be-

E.W.:

How many years has he remained a dentist?

B.R.:

... he graduated in 1932. It'll be 59 years in June.

E.W.:

And he's still practicing?

B.R.:

He's still practicing. I hope this year will be his last year. I can't wait for 6:00him to quit.

E.W.:

That's quite a record.

B.R.:

I think he's the only-

E.W.:

Is he trying to hit 60 years?

B.R.:

... I don't know. Whenever I talk to him about quitting he says why does it bother you, I'm enjoying myself.

E.W.:

Now tell us something about your children.

B.R.:

I have two daughters.

E.W.:

Tell a little bit about them growing up. They went to Sunday school at Adath Jeshurun?

B.R.:

No, Faith went to Sunday school at Adath Jeshurun. When Julie was 10 we joined temple. The Temple Adath Israel and she was confirmed at Temple Adath Israel. I had a little disagreement at Adath Jeshurun. And even the Rabbi Gillman was the rabbi there. I left there and he understood. Well we - actually my husband was confirmed at Brith Sholom. We actually belonged to both Brith Sholom and Adath 7:00Jeshurun and we dropped both of them and joined Adath Israel. And they both, my girls graduated Atherton. They both graduated Ohio State, and they both left me and went to live in Washington, and it hurts me every day of my life.

E.W.:

Were they professional at all after they got through college?

B.R.:

They both graduated as teachers, but Faith started her family young and Julie became a paralegal and went to work in a law office. And they trained her to be a tax consultant. She went to work for Price Water House and she steered off into that career as a tax consultant. She worked for the American Bankers Association. And now she has a family and now she's back to doing substitute teaching.

E.W.:

And what do their husbands do?

B.R.:

Larry's in personal relations with a big firm called Hill Knowlton. That's Julie's husband. And Faith's husband is an attorney.

E.W.:

They live in the Washington area. Are they both - do they live near each other?

B.R.:

About a half an hour apart. But they don't see-

E.W.:

In Maryland or-

B.R.:

... each other too much because they have divergent lives. Faith's children are grown and-

E.W.:

... oh, they've got different aged children.

B.R.:

... different age. And Julie's children are little and they have different friends. They talk on the phone and they get together occasionally. [silence 00:08:40]

E.W.:

Just go ahead now.

B.R.:

I have very vivid memories of the flood. We were living on Alta Avenue, my father was with the Board of Health. He was assistant director of the Board of Health at that time. And my husband was in the Brown building and the Brown building, instead of raising up the elevators when the water came, the elevators were sitting down on the ground floor and there was four feet of water in there. So he couldn't go back to work when the flood was over and he worked at the Board of Health for a whole month after the flood. But the flood was a dreadful thing. I think about it in terms of the water hysteria. People were hysterical, they were out of their homes. We had 17 people in our home. People would knock on the door at night, they had no place to sleep. They slept on our living room floor.

E.W.:

Were they strangers of would they-

B.R.:

Strangers.

E.W.:

... what about family? Did they...

B.R.:

We had some family, yes. Some people that lived downtown. Because there was no water in the Highlands but there was still water downtown.

E.W.:

Was food a problem?

B.R.:

Food was a problem because... Well, no, the big problem was water. They allowed us to have - to let water run for one hour a day. We had to fill water for the toilets and we had just very little water for drinking. And that went on for a week. And my mother was sick, she had just come from the hospital. And it rained and it was cold and I think we had heat but we didn't have any lights. It was a dreary time.

E.W.:

Do you remember the Pontoon Bridge, anything about it?

B.R.:

Sure, I remember the Pontoon Bridge. That's the way my husband got to work every morning. He had to go in a canoe across the - in a rowboat across the Pontoon Bridge to get him over to the other side of Louisville.

E.W.:

And then how would he get to the... He was working at the Board of Health, how would he get there?

B.R.:

I don't know about that.

E.W.:

They had someone pick him or something-

B.R.:

They had someone pick him up.

E.W.:

... because the buses couldn't run much or anything, could they?

B.R.:

My father got very upset. The whole thing was too much for him emotionally so he gave up this ride with going on the rowboat on the Pontoon Bridge. So my husband took his place. And he was on the radio. [inaudible 00:11:54] the boat. He was on the radio. And my aunt in New York heard his name.

E.W.:

Oh really?

B.R.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). A real treat, when one of the members of the people, the family that was staying with us, walked in and had three oranges in a bag. We cut them up and divided them between everybody.

E.W.:

Then the next great event after that was Pearl Harbor day. Can you remember where you were?

B.R.:

I remember that very vividly. I had a brother named Edward, Eddie Brownstein. And all his boy friends gathered around. My mother had a big kitchen with a kitchen table and they all gathered around the kitchen knowing that they were all going to have to go. It was a very sad day. And they all went. But that whole crew of boys, the war did something to them and they all died very young. He and all of his friends died very young.

E.W.:

Did they have war injuries or do you think it was mental or-

B.R.:

No, I think it just did something.

E.W.:

... now did they all fight in Europe?

B.R.:

Well my brother never was in the fighting lines but he was in Iran. A very interesting thing happened while he was in Iran. He was in Tehran. He got leave to go visit the Agranots for a holiday.

E.W.:

In Israel?

B.R.:

In Israel. Well it wasn't Israel then it was Palestine. And he had either Rosh Hashanah or Passover or something with him, and Tel Aviv was just being built. And he came back and he was so excited about Tel Aviv. He said someday that's going to be a big, wonderful city, you'll see. And I can still remember how excited he was with Tel Aviv. He got to tour a little bit. But he went on about through the desert to Haifa. And they were so excited to have him visit with 14:00them for this holiday.

E.W.:

They lived in Haifa and he went from Iran by bus?

B.R.:

By bus.

E.W.:

Did he tell you much about that trip because wasn't it mostly through desert?

B.R.:

It was through the desert on a bus.

E.W.:

Was it extremely hot or did he tell you any of that kind of thing?

B.R.:

No, he didn't talk. But he was young, I don't think it made any difference to him. He was so excited to see family.

E.W.:

Well I'm sure. But you don't know how long it took him then or anything to get there?

B.R.:

No, and he's not here. I can't ask him. But I think that's very interesting.

E.W.:

Yes. Did he bring or send anything home from Iran then?

B.R.:

Oh yes. Well, he brought things home. I don't have them anymore. I gave them to the kids.

E.W.:

But it should have been some interesting different type of things than what we have in this country. Particularly if he brought you some oriental rugs.

B.R.:

No, he didn't bring anything like that.

E.W.:

Now Louis didn't have to go to the Army?

B.R.:

Louis was rejected. That's a funny story. Louis has always had a condition of sneezing a lot, and the day he went to be examined for the Army was a very windy March day. March or April. It was a very windy day and he was sneezing his head off. And when he got up to the officer they said you better go get x-rayed. So they x-rayed him and that's all he knew. And I was crying my eyes out because I was pregnant and here he was going to have to leave. And we had lost our first baby and here I was going to be left along waiting for this one. And then he 16:00came in one day from the office and he said, "Guess what? I was rejected." And he was dejected. He felt terrible about it and I was so elated. And I wanted to know why. Said because they said he had a sinus problem and they wouldn't take him. He wasn't satisfied. He had a patient who as a brigadier general at Fort Knox. He contacted him and asked him to get him in the service. But they still wouldn't take him.

E.W.:

Now I think you told me your sister met her husband...

B.R.:

At a USO dance.

E.W.:

Here in, was it at the YMHA?

B.R.:

No, they used to put them in buses and take them out to Fort Knox.

E.W.:

Yes, I knew that too. Now did she have friends who also met husbands during the war?

B.R.:

I don't think she had any others... Well, I don't think so.

E.W.:

Okay. I wondered if you happened to recall any other of the Louisville girls that did meet husbands during the... because there were numbers of them that did.

B.R.:

No.

E.W.:

And a lot of it was through those USO dances.

B.R.:

Her husband was in the Battle of the Bulge.

E.W.:

Yes.

B.R.:

He got a Purple Heart.

E.W.:

He did? Jerry did too, he was there.

B.R.:

Was he there too?

E.W.:

Yeah.

B.R.:

Is that right?

E.W.:

That is theE.W.'s husband. Let's get that first. You went to Hebrew school where?

B.R.:

I went to the Old Talmud Torah on Walnut Street. We lived at Floyd and Walnut. Remember I told you I moved-

E.W.:

Could you buy dill pickles?

B.R.:

At Simon's Grocery Store. I went there between the age of six and nine and I 18:00hated it with a passion. But I can still follow the Hebrew in the books. I can't read it very well but I can follow, keep the place.

E.W.:

Can you remember any of your teachers?

B.R.:

I can see them in my mind but I can't remember there names.

E.W.:

Were there very many other girls that went to Hebrew School?

B.R.:

I had a friend, I don't know what her name is now, but she was one of the Waldman girls. Her name was Riva, Riva Waldman. And she lived at Preston-

E.W.:

She's Riva Kahn.

B.R.:

... is she? She lived at Preston and Walnut and she used to meet me at Floyd and we used to walk down together and walk back. I was a very little girl. I used to wear glasses when I was a little girl. I had a tic and they put glasses on me. And I used to go to Hebrew school and the first thing I did was say I forgot my glasses so I could go home and get my glasses so I could get out of staying in class.

E.W.:

Now where did you live then?

B.R.:

At Floyd and Walnut. I lived next door to the Jaffe family. Rose Tarbis on one side, and the Baer family on the other side.

E.W.:

Was that Max Baer family?

B.R.:

No, Ray Baer's.

E.W.:

I mean Ray Baer is what I'm trying to say. I don't know whether anybody else in your family's going to be interviewed so tell them who Ray Baer was.

B.R.:

Ray Baer was a football player and he was an All-American at Michigan. And then he became coach of the Manual team here.

E.W.:

Do you think he was the first Jewish to become All-American?

B.R.:

I think he was.

E.W.:

He was an awfully nice guy and everybody knows him.

B.R.:

Well his wife lives here, Blema.

E.W.:

That's right.

B.R.:

She can tell you a lot more than I can. I don't remember much about him.

E.W.:

I know. Now you used to be active in different organization. You told me that you did book reviews. What organizations? Name some of the organizations.

B.R.:

Well I used to work with the Adath Jeshurun Sisterhood. And in my early days I worked with Council. That's so many years ago.

E.W.:

Now in those days, were the meetings different than they are now?

B.R.:

I don't know because I don't go to meetings anymore.

E.W.:

Okay, I'll ask the question. When the ladies went to the meetings, did they wear hats and gloves in those days?

B.R.:

Oh yes, everybody was dressed up in hats and gloves.

E.W.:

Why don't you tell us something maybe... Well, we'll finish that. I was going to have you tell us about going on Fourth Street because that was a big part of our lives in those days.

B.R.:

Well when I was a very little girl and when we lived at Floyd and Walnut, and 21:00Stewart's was at Fourth and Walnut, in the afternoon my mother used to walk down to Fourth and Walnut and she would take me with her. And when they used to ask me what I wanted to do when I grew up I used to say I wanted to marry the man that owns Stewart's. And then as I got older it was a habit to go to Fourth Street. And then my husband's office was in the Starks building so I was downtown a lot. And I used to love walking from Walnut Street to Broadway. And of course on a Saturday afternoon when I was in my teens, our Saturday afternoon recreation with my girlfriends was going to the what is the McCauley now. It was the Brown then. We used to go to a theater and then have lunch at the Brown Pastry Shop. The Brown Pastry Shop was the meeting place for everybody.

E.W.:

Did you like their chicken salad sandwiches?

B.R.:

Oh, I liked their French pastries and their chow mein.

E.W.:

The chow mein. I remember that, yes.

B.R.:

And then another meeting place on Fourth Street, when I became a teacher, we used to go in in the afternoons and meet at the Canary Cottage.

E.W.:

That was...

B.R.:

That was close to Chestnut Street.

E.W.:

It was a...

B.R.:

Do you remember that?

E.W.:

A big part of our lives, Canary Cottage because we just wish we had a Canary Cottage now to go to lunch.

B.R.:

Now we go to Kayrouz.

E.W.:

It's not nothing like Canary Cottage.

B.R.:

Canary Cottage.

E.W.:

You mentioned your friends that you used to go to the Brown Theatre with. Can you remember who they were?

B.R.:

Well I used to go with my cousin Eleanor a lot.

E.W.:

You were living on Second and Hill then?

B.R.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

E.W.:

Now did you walk or use the streetcar?

B.R.:

To go where?

E.W.:

To the theatre, when you went down to Fourth Street.

B.R.:

We used the streetcar, I never walked.

E.W.:

From Second and Hill?

B.R.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

E.W.:

Now when the holidays came, did you walk then to services or did you use a car?

B.R.:

No, used a streetcar.

E.W.:

You used the streetcar.

B.R.:

No, we were never too religious a family.

E.W.:

Yes. I'm just trying to think. You didn't live too near Rabbi Gittleman, did you? He lived several blocks away.

B.R.:

Well he lived in [inaudible 00:23:23] Court when we lived at Second and Hill. That was maybe like about seven or eight blocks.

E.W.:

And his sons were younger than you, his daughter.

B.R.:

Younger than...?

E.W.:

Than you.

B.R.:

Yes. Yes.

E.W.:

Can you remember when he got married?

B.R.:

Who?

E.W.:

Rabbi Gittleman.

B.R.:

No, I don't remember that.

E.W.:

Someone was telling me about that. Mrs. Gittleman was always a very nice looking lady.

B.R.:

Yes, I was always a good friend of hers. She was a smart lady.

E.W.:

Was she from Cincinnati?

B.R.:

Not that I know of. I think she was from the East.

E.W.:

You're starting to tell me what you did when you dated.

B.R.:

In our dating days we used to have places we used to go dancing. We used to go to the Brown Roof when we were in college. You'd go to the Brown Roof on Friday night. And we used to have a Coke and potato chips and it cost two dollars. And we had the music of Jimmy Joy. We did that every Friday night. And then when my husband started making a little more money then he took me out. He took me out on Saturday night, when we wear long dresses to go out dancing. And then in the summertime we went dancing at [inaudible 00:24:48] which is now the War Veteran's place on Bardstown Road. And then we went out to [Snatters 00:24:56] at Iroquois Park. It was an open-air place. There was no air conditioning, you had to go out where it was open-air. But I think we had a much time than the 25:00kids do today.

E.W.:

Now when you'd go to these places, would you see a lot of your friends?

B.R.:

Oh, yes, everybody was there. Everybody did the same thing. And then of course during the school year a lot we went to fraternity dances and they had fraternity parties.

E.W.:

Now those fraternity dances, were they formal then?

B.R.:

They had formals in the spring.

E.W.:

They had the spring formal.

B.R.:

They had their spring formals. But the medical fraternity, I told you, had a house around the corner from me, and I used to go to their affairs on the weekends.

E.W.:

And where was the dental fraternity?

B.R.:

I don't remember where they had a house, but a group of boys, a whole bunch of boys, lived down about four doors from me on Second Street. I don't remember where their house was. But you know, they had so many Jewish boys in the dental school then.

E.W.:

That's what I wanted to know.

B.R.:

They couldn't get in that school in their own town. And it was an open door policy here. So they had a fraternity that had maybe 30 or 35 Jewish boy in it. But then they passed a ruling that the - that school had to take Kentucky boys first and that cut out the Jewish boys from other states. But when I was in school, there were 30, 40 Jewish boys from out of town, in the dental school.

E.W.:

Well what can you remember about the medical school? Did-

B.R.:

Same way with the medical school.

E.W.:

... that was the same thing with medical school then?

B.R.:

Same thing. There were so many of them from out of town.

E.W.:

Do you think any of them stayed here in Louisville and opened practices?

B.R.:

No, I don't think so.

E.W.:

Most of them went home.

B.R.:

Most of them went home. And some of the girls from Louisville married boys from here. The only one I can think of offhand, I had a friend, she dated Louis 27:00before I did. It was Pearl Goodman. And she married a Dr. Lester Lipson. He has died and she went to live up in New York state someplace. But a number of the Jewish girls here married boys from out of town.

E.W.:

Can you remember, or take your time and think, when they started limiting the number of Jewish people who could get into dental and med school?

B.R.:

Oh, that's been like 20, 25 years, or maybe 25 years ago or 30 years ago. See, this, I'm talking about 1930.

E.W.:

That's what I know. During the 30s, any Jewish guy from any place in the country-

B.R.:

'29, '30.

E.W.:

... could get into a professional school here.

B.R.:

Here. And then they cut it out. And there were a lot of them who came here.

E.W.:

Did any of you think that it was anything anti-Semitic when they stopped it?

B.R.:

I don't remember because I wasn't in that groove at that time. I was married and had other interests and I didn't know what was going on.

E.W.:

Okay. I thought maybe Louis had followed it or something. Because it did make a big difference. When you were going to the University of Louisville, were you aware of anything about the influence of the Brandeis Family on the university?

B.R.:

No. See, I went to the University of Louisville for a year and a half and then I 29:00left and went to the Normal School.

E.W.:

Where was the Normal School?

B.R.:

The Normal School was on Broadway. It's still a school. And then I graduated from the Normal School. And then I went back to the University of Louisville and got my degree. So I have two teachers certificates for what it's worth. But the Normal School-

E.W.:

Did you get your bachelor's?

B.R.:

I got a B.A. at the University of Louisville when I went back. I have a teacher's certificate from the Normal School and I have a B.A. from the University of Louisville with a major in music. The Music School was brand new when I came back and I took every course they offered because the Dean at the time told me I could use my Normal School as my... I could take all electives and I could use my Normal School as my minor.

E.W.:

Alright. Now what all have you done with your music in the field of education?

B.R.:

I taught music in the public schools. And I taught piano lessons up until I moved here.

E.W.:

What schools did you teach in?

B.R.:

I taught at the Temple school. I taught at the... [silence 00:30:22]

B.R.:

... my father was six months old when he arrived. When my grandfather left to come here he was only 17 or 18 and his wife was pregnant with my father. And when he was six months old he brought her over. That was in, let's see, my grandfather came in 1884 and my father came in 1885 or 1886, something like that.

E.W.:

So you are another one of the families that are from that very first East European immigration?

B.R.:

That's correct.

E.W.:

Now does your mother... I get confused with your mother and your grandmother. Did any of your grandmother's family live here?

B.R.:

My grandfather's wife, my grandmother, her brothers were here and they brought him over. And her name was Schneider. And the Schneider brothers were here.

E.W.:

Now which Schneiders were they?

B.R.:

Well one of them was Summer Rosen's grandfather. I think it was her grandfather or her great-grandfather. Philip Schneider and Bern Schneider.

E.W.:

Was that from the one that... any of the family that had a butcher shop, a 32:00cultural butcher?

B.R.:

No, they were in the tailoring business.

E.W.:

They were all tailors. Well that's where they got the name.

B.R.:

The name Schneider.

E.W.:

And do you know where they came from?

B.R.:

That's always been kind of questionable but I think my grandfather came from Odessa.

E.W.:

Near Odessa?

B.R.:

Near Odessa.

E.W.:

I think so too, because I think our antecedents came from the same part of Europe, the way my family always talked about the Brownsteins.

B.R.:

Well it's an interesting story. But his father was born in Warsaw in 1825. At that time it was a part of Russia and when he was about 12-years-old, the Russian Army just came along and scooped him up one day off of the streets and took him into the Army. And for days his family didn't know where he was. And finally, when they discovered where he was and he served his time in the Army, 33:00he decided to stay in the Army permanently and he became an Army man. He was the choir master in the Russian Army. I've always thought maybe that's where I've got my musical inheritance. He - one of his furloughs he met and married his wife, and I don't know too much about her. But every time he came home from a furlough, he left and she had another child. And she had about 10 or 11, they didn't all survive. But my grandfather was one of them.

E.W.:

Now did your grandfather's family come to Louisville, any of them, the Brownsteins from...?

B.R.:

They all came.

E.W.:

They all came? All your grandfather's brothers?

B.R.:

Well, no, you see my grandfather -my grandmother had one child, or two children, and when she came... She had been married before, and when she came there were three children and the rest of them were born here.

E.W.:

Because it gets real confusing when you're talking of different generations. But one of the things we'd like to find out is, you know, your immediate family and your aunts and uncles that lived here in Louisville, their names and families, can you tell me that?

B.R.:

My own aunts?

E.W.:

Well, yes. First you didn't tell me who your mother was yet, did you?

B.R.:

My mother's name was [Warris 00:34:51]. It's short for Wartofsky. And she came about 1898. She was about 10 when she came. And my father met her. She came to 35:00Louisville. My father met her here. And he fell in love with her instantly and she was just about 14 or 15-years-old. And then the family moved and went to live in Cincinnati. And by that time, by the time he was in medical school, he was going back and forth to Cincinnati to see her. My father's life is a little different from most people. When he was three-years-old he was run over by a horse car and he lost part of his leg. And he was crippled all his life. That's one of the things that motivated him to become a doctor because he thought it would be easier on him. Her mother was against the marriage because he was crippled, but I'm glad they did marry because here I am.

E.W.:

I'm glad you mentioned that because you see, I have a vivid memory of your 36:00father coming to pay a house call on my ant, Mrs. Abe [Shaken 00:36:09]. That was a long, long time ago. By the time your daddy was practicing 10 years... Or did you call him daddy or father?

B.R.:

I called him papa.

E.W.:

Papa. Were there other Jewish doctors practicing then?

B.R.:

Well when he first went into practice there were only about three or four Jewish doctors in the city of Louisville. I tried to think. There was a doctor or a [fly shaker 00:36:36] who was sort of with the reform element and there was a Dr. Halpurn and my father. And I couldn't think of any other names. Probably Dr. Flexner was in that era.

E.W.:

Yes, well Philip Flexner. The other Flexners had left Louisville. Philip was the only one... And they gave him his doctor's degree, you know. He was a 37:00pharmacist. He had a drug store. But he was also from the reform element, the Flexners were.

B.R.:

So far as I know they were the only Jewish doctors in the city. But I know the people didn't pay their bills very well. They didn't pay their doctor bills very well, because I remember when we would drive... When I was a very little girl we had a horse and buggy. And he had one and my father had one of the first Model-Ts in the city, which he was able to obtain because of his profession. And I was about four or five at that time. And we used to drive down the street and he'd say, you see her, they still owe me for bringing her into the world.

E.W.:

Did you feel that there was any difference between those people and you because 38:00they had a little different background? They were very poor most of those people, weren't they?

B.R.:

I never had much contact with them. We were always very family oriented.

E.W.:

Where did you live then when you first started at school?

B.R.:

Well when I first started at school we lived at Floyd and Walnut when I was six years old. And I went to the George W. Morris School. And we left there when I was 10 and we moved to Second and Hill. Then I went to Cochran School, then I went to Girl's High and then I went to the University of Louisville and it was all close to my home.

E.W.:

When you married, did you still live out in that area or did you-

B.R.:

Oh no, we left there when I was about 20. We moved to the Highlands. And when I married I lived on Alta Avenue.

E.W.:

Okay. When you moved to the Highlands, what year was that about?

B.R.:

'31, '32, something like that. '31, I think.

E.W.:

It's just an interesting thing because to note the pattern of the Jewish people when they started moving into the Highlands. The most of them didn't move till after World War Two. The largest-

B.R.:

Oh no, this was... I graduated from the university in June 1932 and we had been living there for six months or a year or something.

E.W.:

... I lived out in the Highlands too in 1927, '28.

B.R.:

Oh did you?

E.W.:

Yeah. In Whittier.

B.R.:

You say most of them didn't come until after the war?

E.W.:

For the major part of them. But there were lots of families that did live... Now where did you say your family lived? Not where you were married, but your mother and father, when they came out to the Highlands what street did they...?

B.R.:

Second and Hill.

E.W.:

Second and Hill.

B.R.:

That's where all the Jewish population lives.

E.W.:

Yes, they all live there. Now when you were... Do you still have friends that you had when you were a child, when you started at school? Do you have any of the same friends that you had when you started at school?

B.R.:

It's hard for me to remember. And it seems like I have known the people I know all my life.

E.W.:

All your life. Sometimes you have special friends you know you've had from school days. I just like to ask that question. Did you go to Sunday School?

B.R.:

Oh sure. I was confirmed at Adath Jeshurun and I taught Sunday School. I did the music for Rabbi Gittleman when they were at Brook and College.

E.W.:

Can you remember when they started the Sunday School there?

B.R.:

No, the Sunday School was in full operation when I was in Sunday School.

E.W.:

Okay. Now where did your grandfather go to services?

B.R.:

My grandfather was a charter member of Anshei Sfard. The synagogue had its origins in his home. The only other member that I remember that was part of that group was Sam Klein's father, Mr. Klein. And he was a very big shot at Anshei Sfard. And when I was a little girl they took me to Anshei Sfard. But they joined Adath Jeshurun. My family joined Adath Jeshurun and we belonged both places. But I went to Sunday School at Adath Jeshurun.

E.W.:

Did you ever hear anybody explain why they have the name Anshei Sfard?

B.R.:

No.

E.W.:

Because you know that means Sephardic. And I didn't know whether they had something Sephardic in their background when they named the congregation that.

B.R.:

No, I never knew that. But my grandfather was the president there for a number 42:00of years. And my uncle Louis Brownstein was the president there.

E.W.:

Give your grandfather's name. I don't believe you've told-

B.R.:

Jacob Brownstein.

E.W.:

Jacob Brownstein. And he produced a lot of children?

B.R.:

Yes, he had 28 grandchildren.

E.W.:

But can we start with your ants and uncles, the Brownstein ants and uncles?

B.R.:

Well one of my uncles was Harry Brownstein. I don't think any of his children are living in Louisville now anymore. I know some of them have died. Rose [Urbach 00:42:37] was his daughter.

E.W.:

She inherited the music talent.

B.R.:

The same music from the great-grandfather.

E.W.:

Yes, she led the choir in Lexington, Kentucky.

B.R.:

That's right. No, I got that wrong. Harry Brownstein, the father of Rose Urbach, was a brother to my grandfather. He was a great-uncle to me. I got that wrong. 43:00But my father's brother's name was Harry too. And that caused Harry Brownstein, the great-uncle, to change the spelling of his name to B-R-O-N-S-T-E-I-N so as not to confuse the two names. But Harry Brownstein was my father's brother. And then he had a brother Charles and a brother Louis and a sister Fannie, who became Fannie Wolder, and Minnie, who became Minnie Baker. You know any of these people?

E.W.:

Sure. I knew Minnie Baker. She went on a trip with me, in a tour. Not a tour, a cruise.

B.R.:

Is that right?

E.W.:

She was a friend of my mother's. And if you could, I wanted you to try and 44:00remember your grandfather's, different ones in your grandfather's family. There were so many of-

B.R.:

Well he had a sister named Simmie Baer, who was the mother of Ray Baer and Abe Baer and Rebecca [Crupp 00:44:19]. And then he had a brother named Abe Brownstein. His daughter was Esther Haskell. And then he had a sister named [Passie 00:44:36], I think who lived in Indianapolis.

E.W.:

Goldsteins?

B.R.:

Yes, they had a daughter named Goldstein. It goes back so long it's hard for me to remember.

E.W.:

I know. The only reason I know, my mother knew the various ones of his friends and Sarah Wasserman, now she was a third cousin of yours or a first cousin?

B.R.:

She was not a cousin of mine at all.

E.W.:

Oh, she wasn't related to you?

B.R.:

No.

E.W.:

Okay. She was related to the Baers. Alright.

B.R.:

No. She was related...shit.

E.W.:

What was that sister she married? [Elevich 00:45:21]?

B.R.:

Married Elevich. And she had a daughter named Sarah. I never knew her too well.

E.W.:

Well she was a different age group. All of them were...

B.R.:

They were all...

E.W.:

One of the younger brothers may have been nearer your age, but they were a decade or so older than you.

B.R.:

I just never knew her too well.

E.W.:

Yeah. She was a friend of my mother's too. Now you said you had lots of cousins. 28 first cousins?

B.R.:

We were 28.

E.W.:

And did the family get together real often?

B.R.:

We were always came together. My grandfather kind of saw to that. We were always together on the holiday. My grandfather left Louisville and with his sons, except for my father, and went to work in Chicago. He was the head man in a tailoring manufacturing plant. And while they were there, my grandmother - my real grandmother died at the age of about 53, suddenly of a heart attack. And after she died they came back to Louisville and they opened the Peerless Manufacturing Company, the manufacturing of men's clothing. They were at Seventh and Main and the whole family was in the business with the exception of my father. My uncle Louis Brownstein was the bookkeeper and he went to law school during the time that he was with them. And after the firm closed he became an attorney.

E.W.:

When did it close?

B.R.:

I don't remember.

E.W.:

You can't remember.

B.R.:

But the building is still standing there. It's at Seventh and Main.

E.W.:

And that was Peerless?

B.R.:

Peerless Manufacturing.

E.W.:

Do you remember what they made?

B.R.:

Men's clothing. One of the brothers was a salesman on the road, one of them worked... The in-laws, the sons and son-in-laws, they all worked in the business.

E.W.:

Well did they employ very many tailors?

B.R.:

Yes, they had quite a big factory.

E.W.:

Now do you think they opened - started it like in 1900 or was it later?

B.R.:

So Peerless Manufacturing as at the corner of Seventh and Main, the building is still standing. The company had three floors and all I remember was that the 48:00first floor they did the cutting and there were a lot of big tables with fabrics on them. And I never went through the factory but I know that they were a pretty big operation. I don't know how well they did because I was a child and I didn't understand, but I know that everybody was in the company except my father.

E.W.:

Now I want you to see if you can remember back on the holidays. Where did you go after services? Did you go to one of the houses to eat, like on Rosh Hashanah?

B.R.:

Well my mother had a brother living here by the name of Harry Warris, and we used to spend Passover with them. And the rest of the holidays we spent with the Brownstein family. My grandfather remarried when he came back... He married a woman from Chicago. And as far as I knew she was my grandmother because I didn't 49:00remember my first grandmother that well, although I did see her. She was buried from our house and I did see her in her coffin and I have never forgotten that memory.

E.W.:

Now this is something the young people of today don't know about because we don't have funerals at home or the body isn't at home.

B.R.:

They not only brought her at home, to our house, but I peeked in, I stood on the edge of the coffin and peeked in and looked at her and I wish I hadn't because I still have an indelible memory of that. But after that my grandfather married a Chicago woman. What's very interesting about the woman that he married, her family were ardent Zionists and in the 20s he had one daughter who was married to a dentist, the name was Agranot. And they moved to Palestine, near Haifa. And 50:00my grandfather was very affluent in those days and they used to make trips back and forth to Haifa. Anyway, the Agranots had two sons and one of their sons was Simon Agranot, who became the Prime Minister of... Not the Prime Minister, the Chief Justice of Israel. And he handed down the Eichmann decision. Hadn't you heard of that?

E.W.:

Yes, yes.

B.R.:

Anyway that was one of her daughters. And then her other one, she had a daughter that was a dentist. Their name was [Arloff 00:50:38] and they lived in Chicago. They were very erudite people.

E.W.:

So then I presume that your grandfather was an ardent Zionist too after that, wasn't he?

B.R.:

I don't recall that he was a particularly ardent Zionist. But I know that he used to... I used to wait for when he'd come back from his trips to see what he 51:00was going to bring me.

E.W.:

That's what I wanted to know. What did he bring you?

B.R.:

He brought me some beautiful jewelry, which I gave to one of my daughters. And I could just conk her because I don't think she knows what she did with it.

E.W.:

Was it silver or was it the stones?

B.R.:

It was silver with the stones.

E.W.:

What color stones?

B.R.:

Filigree silver.

E.W.:

That's like they made in North Africa. But they were making-

B.R.:

That's right.

E.W.:

... they were making that already in Israel.

B.R.:

That's right. I used to wait to see what he would bring me.

E.W.:

Yes. That's real interesting. Did he bring you anything from the olive trees? Anything olive?

B.R.:

No.

E.W.:

Because years ago there were quite a few-

B.R.:

He was a very wonderful man. He made every one of his grandchildren feel "Well, I'm his favorite." He was very affectionate and very outgoing. He was trained, 52:00when he was a young boy, they sent him to music school. He was originally trained to be a singer. See, the music is in the family. And then he had something go wrong with his voice, so then they sent him to tailoring school. And when he came to this country he was already in the tailoring business.

E.W.:

Now let's see, do you know where your mother and father were married?

B.R.:

They were married in Cincinnati.

E.W.:

So they probably had a Cincinnati rabbi then?

B.R.:

Yes, but I don't know who it was. I know very little about my mother's family.

E.W.:

When you... We know...

B.R.:

I wasn't into family things in-

E.W.:

Now your grandfather was quite orthodox, wasn't he?

B.R.:

Yes and no. He was orthodox with a little leaning towards modernization.

E.W.:

That's right. I thought because of the congregation. But he's like the rest of our parents. Once they got to America... Well he already had different education too, with his music?

B.R.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

E.W.:

It made a [crosstalk 00:53:17].

B.R.:

[inaudible 00:53:17]. My aunt Fannie had a beautiful voice. The family used to get together and Louis, my uncle Louis Brownstein used to play the piano, my uncle Charlie used to play the drums, and ant Minnie and ant Fannie used to sing and the kids all danced. We had a lot of family gatherings.

E.W.:

But there was always music around?

B.R.:

There was always music around.

E.W.:

That's wonderful. In your generation were there other musicians beside you?

B.R.:

Well, Rose. She was older than I was. Rose Urbach. She was a good deal older than I was. And then she had a brother who played the piano, Alvin. He may still 54:00be out in California. That's where he went.

E.W.:

Now tell us what you'd like to tell us about your father, because I know there were many, many families that thought he was the only...

B.R.:

Well, I know that-

E.W.:

Looked up to him so much.

B.R.:

... well he was the kind of doctor that made house calls. And you can't compare him with the doctors today. And he is the kind who sat on the edge of the bed and patted your hand and listened to your stories. And then he couldn't collect his bills.

E.W.:

But he never came home and told you of some of the poor homes that he had to go into, did he?

B.R.:

No, not to my recollection. I know that I was the chief baby telephone sitter as I grew older and I resented it bitterly. There was no physician's exchange and he and my mother used to like to go out at night, go to movies and go play 55:00bridge and I was the phone sitter. And it's a strange thing. I didn't understand Jewish, but some of the patients who called used to talk to me in Yiddish and I began to pick up some of the words and I had a fair understanding of Yiddish from being the phone sitter.

E.W.:

Your grandfather, you didn't have to speak Yiddish to him?

B.R.:

No, oh no, he spoke English.

E.W.:

Now, you told me the name of the school you went to. What Jewish activities did you have before you became a teenager? Did you go to the HA-

B.R.:

I went to-

E.W.:

... you went to Sunday School.

B.R.:

... I went to Sunday School.

E.W.:

Do you remember any of the people in your Sunday School class?

B.R.:

Yeah, I remember some of them.

E.W.:

Names, or is it difficult?

B.R.:

It's difficult.

E.W.:

Did you go to the YMHA?

B.R.:

I'll tell you who was in my confirmation class. Nettie Schwartz and Bernard Schneider, became a doctor, they were in my confirmation class. Those are two that I remember.

E.W.:

Were there about eight people or were there more people in the class?

B.R.:

We were about 12.

E.W.:

That was a nice size. And what year were you confirmed?

B.R.:

Let me think a minute. 12. 1928.

E.W.:

1928.

B.R.:

'28, something like that.

E.W.:

And so they had the service in the synagogue?

B.R.:

In Brook and College.

E.W.:

Brook and College, yes. It was a pretty synagogue.

B.R.:

It was a pretty synagogue.

E.W.:

Can you remember when it was built?

B.R.:

I think I was in my, maybe about four or five years old because I vaguely remember the shul they had before they built Brook and College. I have just a 57:00very faint memory of that place.

E.W.:

Because everyone must have thought it was a gorgeous building when it was first built.

B.R.:

It was beautiful.

E.W.:

And I'm sure you admired Rabbi Gittleman.

B.R.:

He was my great friend. I always used to say he married me, he could bury me. I didn't realize he would go so much sooner.

E.W.:

Why don't you... Let's see. You had brothers and sisters. Do you have-

B.R.:

I'm a twin. I had a twin brother. And I had a brother six and a half years younger and a sister 12 and a half years younger. And both of my brothers are gone, my sister lives in Baltimore.

E.W.:

What'd she leave right after she finished school?

B.R.:

No, she married when she was 21. She met her husband when he was stationed at 58:00Fort Knox. And when the war was over he came back and he took her away to Baltimore and that where she's lived all these years.

E.W.:

Now we're getting close to the time you met your husband.

B.R.:

Oh, I met my husband the first day I started college. I graduated high school one month past my 16th birthday. And I had never been in a classroom with boys because I went to Louisville Girl's High School. And I started U of L the week after I graduated and I don't know whether you remember Irvin Levitan or not, but he was a friend of mine and we walked to school. And we walked in eight o'clock in the morning on a Monday morning, the first class, and he introduced me to Louis. And that's how long I've known him.

E.W.:

Now where was Louis from?

B.R.:

He was born in Evansville and he moved here when he was two. He had a very sad childhood. His mother died during the flu epidemic and he bounced around from one aunt to another.

E.W.:

That's the flu epidemic that was going on during World War One?

B.R.:

During World War One, mm-hmm (affirmative). He bounced around with his aunts and his father remarried and he went back to live at home. But he started hanging around my house. All the boys hung around my house. We lived on a corner and it was a convenient meeting place. And he fell in love with my mother and she took him under her wing and she became his mother.

E.W.:

Can you recall some of the other Jewish families that lived near you on Second and Hill?

B.R.:

Well, remember Charlie Baer, the Baer family. There was another branch of the 60:00Baer family. They lived around there. And the [Ortners 01:00:05] lived around the corner. And the Marks family.

E.W.:

Which Marks family?

B.R.:

Hannah Marks.

E.W.:

Hannah Marks.

B.R.:

They lived there.

E.W.:

Now are you in Hannah's age group or is she older?

B.R.:

She's a little older than I am. And my cousin Eleanor Brownstein, she was, she's Eleanor Hyman, her father was Charlie Brownstein. They lived around the corner on Burnett Street. Esther Haskell lived down the street. We just all lived around there. And then the [inaudible 01:00:38] house, the medical fraternity was around the corner. [silence 01:00:44]