Interview with Sarah Morguelan and Rose Hummel, October 14, 1990

Frank Weisberg:

Conducting an interview today for the JCC Family History Project. Today is October 14th, 1990, and I would like to present Sarah Morgulin and Rose Hummel who have consented to share their recollections with us today. Let's start with Miss Hummel and Sarah, you can join in whatever. Would you please give us your name and address and your parents' name?

Rose Morguelan:

This is Rose [Latter 00:00:41] Hummel. I was born in Louisville, 1915. My parents were Sarah Waldman Snyder, my father was Mark Snyder who was a kosher butcher. My neighborhood was primarily a mixture of Jewish and Italian when I was a child. All up and down, we lived on Walnut Street, East Walnut between Preston and Floyd street. Preston Street starting roughly at Market and 1:00southward to past Madison were all Jewish merchants on both sides of the street. At that time, we had maybe four kosher butchers right on Preston. So you know, I was brought up in a religious, observant manner. In those days, now I'm going back to, I was born in 1915. But when I was a small child, all of the establishments were closed on the Sabbath and on holidays.

R.M.:

I had an uncle whose name was Abraham Waldman, whose store was where the Louisville medical school is now on Preston. My father's buildings were across the street where the University of Louisville dental school is now. The home that I was born in and that my mother died in is now the scene of a University of Louisville Research Laboratory on Walnut. The Louisville Talmud Torah, the 2:00Hebrew school, was two blocks away from where we lived. In those days you went to school within walking distance. Now there was a Waterman department store on Preston, and on East Jefferson going to the West were Jewish produce merchants and fish markets, like George Segal's fish market was up there. And Mr. Feitelson had a Jewish deli around the corner on Jefferson Street from Preston.

R.M.:

Now, my parents came to this country through Boston, not Ellis Island, and settled in Manchester, New Hampshire at first when my aunt and uncle, Rose and Joseph [Fine 00:02:43] had settled. But that was in 1903 when my dad came. My mother came in 1905 through the underground in Russia because Jews were not given exit visas. Paid peasants to let him sleep in barns. Paid steerage from Liverpool, England. And after being in Manchester, when my oldest sister, Goldie 3:00Snyder Miller, was born, had two uncles here, Abraham Waldman, Eli Waldman. He talked the two sisters into coming to Kentucky. How they ever got here, I don't know, to be with the rest of the family. Right now I'll rest and let Sarah, unless you have other questions.

F.W.:

No, you're doing just fine. You're doing just fine.

R.M.:

Okay, Sarah, go ahead.

F.W.:

[inaudible 00:03:31] Tell us about yours, how you came to [inaudible 00:03:36].

Sarah Hummel:

I was born in Louisville, Kentucky at the Jewish hospital. My family came through Chicago first. We had an aunt there, Mrs. Bender, who later came here and had the delicatessen, Benders Delicatessen.

F.W.:

When were you born?

S.H.:

I was born in 1914, and she's younger than me. And we originally came to Chicago 4:00because Mrs. Bender was my grandmother's sister, and that was where they came. But they couldn't find work, and my grandfather had nephews here. Bass. His name was Abe Bass. My grandmother's name was [inaudible 00:04:17] Bradsky Bass, and my mother's name was Celia Bass Goldberg. My father was Abe Goldberg. My mother had one sister who was Rebecca, or Becky, who later married Alec Birman, and one brother, Joe Bass, who then later when he grew up married Anna Nash.

S.H.:

Now as I started to say, my grandfather and his family came here because he had nephews here who had worked for him who said he could find a job. My father was a shoemaker, and then he went into shoe repairing. His place was on South 5:00Preston and Breckenridge. South Preston, and that's correct. And when I was born, that's where we lived. No, no, I think we lived upstairs from Linkers Bakery on Market Street, on the third floor. Ruth Linker Handmaker lived on the second floor and her family, and my family lived on the third floor. Then we moved to Preston Street, and that's all I can think of right now.

F.W.:

Tell us more, Rose. Maybe about your parents or your grandparents.

R.M.:

Well-

F.W.:

In those days in Louisville.

R.M.:

My grandmother was brought over to this country. Her name was Fagan Waldman, and came over to this country when I was about 10 years old and lived with us.

F.W.:

Where was she from?

R.M.:

She was from a village called [Tikhvin 00:05:58] in Russia. My father was from a village called [Ontanifka 00:06:03], not [Onatifka 00:06:03]. But it was about 6:00maybe 30 miles from Tikhvin, but there were a few Jewish families in each settlement. But in those days, the houses... Now the Jewish people are Yiddish speaking people, have heard as a [stcheep 00:06:21] , they figure is a house I get. It isn't, it's a Yiddish word for stable. Because the livestock and Russia were kept in the back part of the home where they live, maybe a wall in between. I know that there was very rough times and a lot of privation, but my parents never spoke that much about what went on in the Russian years.

R.M.:

All that I know is that my mother and father's first child was a year old when he died of I think of whooping cough in Russia. Now I'm one of nine children. I had five brothers and three sisters. There are four of us left. We all attended 7:00elementary school at Thomas Jefferson School at Jackson and Walnut. But the center, or the old YMHA as we called it, was the focal point of all activities. There was Jim and with Blanche Mitchell had a dancing school on the first floor of the old building and you always felt so welcome. We treated it almost like a home. You didn't have to show membership card, you didn't have to go through a lot of ritual, but everybody was welcome and at the time that I was a young teenager, possibly preteen, Linetta Mayor was in charge of girls' activities here. And my sister-in-law, Gerry Simon Snyder's brother-in-law, Morris Grossman was general secretary here at one time. And Harry Cohn was an athletic director.

R.M.:

We had a girl's basketball team, which Sarah Martin and I were both on, and we 8:00really dressed according to the Nike things and the Air Jordan shoes. We wore pearls, we wore earrings, but we had a great time and then we all took Jim with Emily Watsonbarn, and this is something maybe they'll edit, but what really gets to me is when they built this new magnificent edifice, which they remodeling, or whatever y'all call it, my nephew Marty Snider was co-chairman of. But they thought it was a little bit old fashion or maybe passe to put the running track up on top like we had at the old YMHA in the gym. You had a lap track then. I don't know what it cost y'all. Maybe $30,000 decided to add that track here when they remodeled. But then we had summer camp up, pretty close to Harris Creek.

R.M.:

Linetta Mayor, we had a contest with a name of Kappawingo was the Indian name. With the kosher kids we had Kappawingo. I was a junior counselor one time. We 9:00had row boats. We swam in the then clean Ohio river, but the '37 flood wiped the premises out and that's when they went up to Otter Creek I think is what they called it, but everybody in my family participated in sports. My son, Kenneth Hummel, was on the national championship basketball team for the Jewish center, and I guess it was in 1967 or '68 that they won. And I'm running a little bit out. Unless you have something-

F.W.:

You mentioned that '37 flood.

R.M.:

Yes.

F.W.:

What happened? I wasn't around then. What happened to the Jewish community in 1937? What part of town were they living in and did that flood?

R.M.:

It affected practically everyone because in '37 I still, in my non-married members of the family, still lived at Preston and Walnut.

R.M.:

By that time, a lot of people had moved out and they jokingly used to call the Jewish Island around Chestnut street and Broadway. Because the Jewish areas in the near West were from about 12th and 13th and Market, from Market street down to possibly Walnut or Cedar. And then the downtown was Chestnut and Madison and Gray street, from say first street east to maybe Shelby, but we-

S.H.:

Would you say at one time every Jewish person [inaudible 00:10:38] ?

R.M.:

Yes, every Jewish person, although we used to call them, now I'm not being racist or smart alack-ey, but we called them the Deutsche. These were temple members, and they were the first ones who disassociated themselves. I mean they moved to the Lower Highlands. At that time that was Willow, and Hepburn, and Berenger. I mean, nobody went past Douglas, I mean Eastern Parkway. Now I have a son that's in Prospect and Stott's Harbor.

R.M.:

At the time of the flood, my father Bill had the kosher butcher shop. There were Jewish bakeries on Preston. There were maybe two other kosher butcher shops and Mr. Schrager and Mr. [inaudible 00:11:27] had shops there, but the streets were flooded. It was not from the river water, it was from the back up. The sewers failed to carry. Don't forget, Walnut street is only about seven streets south of the Ohio river. But our house, there were rowboats, people were in rowboats going up and down the street and our house was built up about four steps from the pavement. Then we had a yard that was built up, but the other streets were flooded and the stuff was getting ruined. The Red Cross came and bought all the 12:00fresh produce and meat for the people they were going to help. But we had kerosene lamps. Everybody was running like lunatics to Jefferson street, to where they still sold things like that.

R.M.:

Kerosene lamps and Sterno cans, you know to heat things on, and we had a wonderful Italian neighbor next door who was a stone mason, but he had a small one burner coal stove that he brought over, he had it in his shed, to my mother's. And put it up in our kitchen. We had no gas, we had no electricity, no water. You had water, they'd turn it on twice a day. So you had to fill the tubs and buckets with fresh water, like to flush toilets or to boil for drinking. But my mother was cooking for our family on a one burner cole stove. But I remember so well the night the lights came on all over the world, in Louisville. After the flood I was at Sarah's house on Madison street where we were eating with our 13:00daddy, Abe Goldberg, and the lights came on, you would've thought we had hit the promised land!

R.M.:

But it was a rough time. Don't forget, we were teenagers, we did not feel the effects of it as much as the business people who lost their merchandise, were not able to open their stores. On Fourth street when the stores finally opened. I'm talking about when the floodwaters receded enough, now these were back up, and you may not be aware, Frank, that Bear Grass Creek runs down Third street underneath. They pushed it gradually all the way to the East. But where the old YMCA was, Bear Grass Creek ran roughly under there. But you had backup, you see, from the sewer that you've seen pictures of the Brown hotel building where they put a plaque up, how high the water was there. But the merchants on Fourth street, the small ones, when they re-opened, they reopened with kerosene lamps. Just that, yes-

S.H.:

I worked at the-

R.M.:

Were you at the [inaudible 00:14:03]. Yeah, go ahead.

S.H.:

I worked with Flesher's at that time, and I came in, I wore my coat all day long 14:00while I fold dresses and coats, because people's clothing was washed out. My aunt Becky Bearman and her husband had a grocery store at 13th and Walnut, and the people pushed and shoved for groceries and food. They broke a plate glass window. They cut the throat of a little black girl because the glass came out and did that. And they came on the radio and they said, "If there's drug or food that you need, just go in and take it. My dad stood catty-corner from his place of business at 10th and Magazine. They rushed the store. They stole, they took out everything he had, what they couldn't use they jumped on, and tore up, and it left him penniless. They took everything he had.

S.H.:

We lived at 10th and Walnut at that time. Well we lived on Madison street at that time, but we had other families come and stay at our house because it was dry. We stayed with my aunt Anna and uncle Joe Bass, upstairs Jake Margolin 15:00stayed there too because his house was flooded, so he stayed with my family and me. Getting back to Jake and back to the athletics, Jake was very active in basketball as well as his brother Lars, and Gus, and I think those were the only three. I know that my father-in-law one day came to watch the boys play basketball and he didn't have a ticket and they told him that he couldn't come in if he didn't have a ticket. He says, "If you don't let me in, I'll take my boys home and you won't have a game." So of course I did let him in, but they did play.

S.H.:

They had some champion teams. They won many championships and Rose and me and a few of the other girls, girls, ladies, women, whatever, our age played the preliminary games, in our big black bloomers, and then they had the regular games that came afterwards, and then after that they had what they called a Meet-a-body, which was up in the lodge room. And all of us, all of the young 16:00people, would go up there, and they had a Nickelodeon-

R.M.:

No, Renee Hoffman [inaudible 00:16:14] Renee is her name. But Renee Schlotzman played the piano. [inaudible 00:16:18].

S.H.:

We used to dance and in those days I used to break, I got my dates for the week while I was up there. Right. And for New Year's Eve, six months ahead and all that. But it was a lot of fun. There was no one really came on to you or anything like they do today.

R.M.:

The Jewish community. To begin with, during the flood, you were asking about how it affected the people? Just like Sarah said, everyone who lived in a low line district that was effected by water came to relatives who were in a comparatively dry area. But Mr. Ward, who just died a couple of weeks ago, was a very young engineer then. He built a pontoon bridge with his own kegs, with 17:00planks from lower around Paine Avenue from about Market street to Pain on Baxter. And that's how people got from that end of town to the Highlands. Up around Baxter Highland, which was where my oldest sister lived. People had friends on floors, on couches, wherever they could, because some people were washed out. There were a lot of Jewish people at that time who had businesses in the West End, and lived out there, well they couldn't stay there. But they were washed out.

S.H.:

[inaudible 00:17:37] mother stayed with our grandmother. What's the one by the apartment now-

R.M.:

On Barrett-

S.H.:

They lived on Barrett, and they were there. They were away from all the rest of them were downtown, and my mother's house was on Madison Street, and there were three families who had to come stay in our house.

R.M.:

And don't forget, we all had to have Typhoid shots, and at that time the front 18:00of Walnut street was flooded. But the back was Madison street backed up. There was an alley, in those days you had alleys in the back. Your garages were in the back and well, you could walk from the our backyard to Madison street, get over to Floyd and at that time we called it the Louisville City Hospital, had an emergency room set up for people to get typhoid shots. The Red Cross was doing it-

S.H.:

They also had crazy people up there, and we used to run around-

R.M.:

Yes, they had a psychiatric ward upstairs with barred windows. Of course we thought that was funny then, but I cannot think of that doctor who lived right there by the emergency room and he was a famous doctor, wasn't Flexner. But during the flood days you couldn't use the phones because they need them for emergencies.

R.M.:

You've probably read this in the history of the flood. The radio announcer can't 19:00think of his last name, Pete. People would call up that they were stranded, and they would have these calls out on the radio 24 hours a day. Send the boat... Pete French, he was the one that stayed on the air for maybe three days straight, because people would call up frantic, to see if the phones were working. And all you would hear was send a boat. Send the boat to 17th and Jefferson, send the boat to 32nd and Delbrook, whatever the streets were.

F.W.:

How long were the water up? How long did the flood last?

R.M.:

Now the flood itself probably started to recede in maybe six or seven days, but the havoc that it caused of the electricity and plumbing were out for what? About four to five weeks where we lived. If you know Fourth street, which was our only shopping street then, they opened up the small ones with kerosene lanterns like theirs that you wore a coat, because there was no heat, and you could not be open at night.

R.M.:

There were quite a few horrible cases of looting and vandalism and don't forget where I lived at [inaudible 00:20:07] were primarily Jewish owned businesses, but that time was... Now you look back on it, it's really history. You don't think about it then, but in World War Two, the old YMHA, had a USO branch there, but they had block parties. They called them street dances on Saturday night for the boys from Fort Knox and Bowman Field. Jewish boys, and I forget whether it was the council, well anyhow, some group of women took it upon themselves to get the girls to dance with... And they selected them from all over the city and would pick you up if you had to go. But it was done on Jacob street in the summer. [crosstalk 00:20:48] Yeah, between Second and First street on the street, the whole, you know, traffic would be blocked off or wasn't that busiest street.

R.M.:

And they had a band out there, and the soldiers would come in and there were a lot of marriages made in Louisville, from boys who were stationed out there and 21:00girls who lived there. In fact, my friend Sarah Margolin here had what we called the junior USO. So these were people that were likely YMHA. These people ran a place for anybody that didn't have any place to go. There'd be a bulletin up, "Invite a soldier or a stranger for the holidays." The Jewish holidays. They would put their names in. Yes, yes. Your parents too. I'm sorry. [inaudible 00:21:36] See, in the old days Louisville was very close knit and there were a lot of marriages. I remember the very first marriage, I remember families were invited and I remember this wedding with my cousin, Max Walden, who married Yeta Levinton.

R.M.:

And her brother Tony was pretty active at the center. Anyhow, when they married. I remember being on a bed sleeping on coats. I could have been three or four years old. Now everything is very formal. You see, you don't get [inaudible 22:0000:22:06] That's it, see the families were invited. But at the YMHA, everything that you were connected with, like the dances or the Meet-a-body, our gym classes, and we had recitals, we had and we had gym things, you know, so... That's right. Just go and see what's going on.

S.H.:

And then we'd walk back, we were within walking distance. [inaudible 00:22:32].

R.M.:

And then all of the Jewish edifices, all the Jewish religious places, at one time the old [Bethesdashaguttal 00:22:39] was the name and the [Benejacob 00:22:41], that was on Jefferson and [[Bethesdashaguttal 00:20:30] was at Preston and what we used to call Fair Avenue, now Liberty.

R.M.:

That is now the combination that made Keneseth Israel. All right, we moved to Floyd and Jacob. With our new building, I was what, maybe nine or 10 years old. 23:00[inaudible 00:23:01] at the time was at First and Walnut. Brith Sholem was at Second and Jacob. Adath Jeshurun was at Brooklyn College, and that was the route to go. You see on the holidays when you were all dressed up, no air conditioning. Wearing pure wool because it was Anshei Sfard, and hats and gloves. You'd make the rounds, you'd see, you would leave your congregation, go to Anshei Sfard, at First and Walnut, then come back up to Brooklyn College Adath Jeshurun, and flip over to the temple. I mean Brith Sholom at Second and college, and then go over to Adeth Isreal, at third and Breck. But that was really out of our territory because we were all either conservative or Orthodox congregations except with [inaudible 00:23:49] , but we knew a lot of people.

R.M.:

But that was really our holiday Safari. Everybody got dressed up and went, but I've talked enough, I've getting horse. You'll never [inaudible 00:24:01].

F.W.:

Anything else you recall about the '37 flood?

S.H.:

I got married 1937 after Jake stayed with us and that, yeah... But I didn't have any children until two years later. Now, we were married in August. Of course that was about six months after the flood. We all stayed at all at my Uncle Joe's, and it was horrendous. As Rose said, we only got water twice a day and my mother and father were devastated because they were just wiped out clean. And Charlotte Rosenthal lived up the street. They had a grocery store. There was Vine and Levine. Vine's Groceries, Kenny Vine, who just passed away. His family and Charlotte's family. And that's what the black people called him. Let's go to Vine's or, Levine's, and they used to have a chicken coops outside, live chickens.

S.H.:

They picked out the ones they wanted, and they'd take it in, and they would kill them. But anyway, we were big Coca-Cola drinkers in those days. And for 25:00Charlotte's birthday, which is January 31st, I gave her a bottle of Coca-Cola. She just cherished it so long. Her father finally got in a whole case, and then she finally opened up that one Coca-Cola bottle that I gave her. She was so excited with that. Charlotte was married that year too, I think-

F.W.:

How much was a Coca-Cola in those day?

S.H.:

A nickel-

F.W.:

A nickel right.

S.H.:

And for ice cream cone, for a nickel you got two scoops. You could sometimes get a three cent one with one scoop. And you had a lot of snow balls. Oh, they were big. The kids used to open up snowball places and make extra money. I think everybody has to know Presta Giacomo's because that was on the corner of Preston and Madison and the Italian man and everybody knew him and what, Rosie what's the name of that-

R.M.:

Hosted it on Friday night.

S.H.:

What about the soda fountain place? That was-

R.M.:

Charlene John-

S.H.:

And you'd go down and get a soda at night.

R.M.:

Well we later found out their name was Johnacakus, but we called him Johnny Cakes. And their family is still in business at the Fourth Avenue candy shop at Eastern Parkway in Bardstown road. They call it the Fourth Avenue Candy Chop. Those are some of their relatives, but the families in Louisville are all interrelated now. Frank's mother, grandmother, wait a minute, his mother Marion Bearman, Alec Bearman's sister Bess, that's my cousin by marriage, married to my cousin Nathan Waldmann. So I mean there are a lot of connections, so really there are so many things that that spring to mind. But when you talk about the old HA, that was everybody's place, you see there was no such thing as private clubs.

R.M.:

The standard club was established, it was way out on River Road, and very few people that we knew or were connected with were members there. But everything took place here, in the summertime. There was a Sunnings Park and a Summer's Park, and the picnics, the Jewish synagogues and organizations, each one had a Sunday in the summer where they'd have a picnic. Well you went to them on the street car, out to third and a Newcut road, out there the street cars ran, you know, Fourth street or Second street ran. And I mean street cars, not buses with wires. Well they would have booths, carnival booths, you know the, the congregation did it. And they would get food, and everybody brought a picnic basket and they had a raffle, and they always had a dance. And I remember being stamped with a rubber stamp, because if you paid your way with a quarter, and 28:00you try to sneak somebody else in, you couldn't.

R.M.:

But every week, and there was another synagogue here called [Agutus Authum 00:28:08] was at 12th and Jefferson.

S.H.:

We belong to that. My family all belong to that church.

R.M.:

See the West Enders, originally because in those days people were very observant and rather pious. They did not ride on high, they were within walking distance of their congregation. But they were wonderful and everybody had a good time. They had dances and dance contests, and-

S.H.:

They would have boat rides on the bell.

R.M.:

Yes. Well it was the America then, or the Avalon on my junior-senior boat ride. And I went to an all girls school, [Abingdon 00:28:43]. We had a junior-senior boat ride up to Rose Island, and it turned around, but no boys. I was so popular, but I was in the eighth graduating class at [Abingdon 00:28:58] , now 29:00they graduated and.