Interview with Annette Simon Sagerman April 1, 1991

Betty Abramson:

Today with Annette Simon Sagerman, for the Jewish Community Center family history project. The date today is April 1st, 1991, and I would like to present Annette to you.

Betty Abramson:

Annette, would you please give us your name, address, and if you wish your phone number?

Annette S.:

I am Annette Simon Sagerman. 3320 [Koine 00:00:29] Way, 4585180.

Betty Abramson:

Thank you very much. What were your parent's names please?

Annette S.:

My father was Jacob Simon. My mother was Eva Kaplan Simon.

Betty Abramson:

They're no longer living?

Annette S.:

No. Neither of my parents are living.

Betty Abramson:

Were they born in Louisville?

Annette S.:

No. My father was born in Russia, in Riva Courland, which was what was then Latvia. And he took a great deal of pride in the fact that he could say he was a 1:00Litvak. He came to this country as a young man to escape the Tsar's army actually, I suppose. And was going to "yeshiva" in Russia, and later in Cleveland. And knew all the time that he didn't choose to be a rabbi, but discovered that in this country one of the freedoms that one enjoyed is that of choice of one's vocation. And since his parents were still in Russia, he made the judgment that he would not like to be a rabbi.

Annette S.:

And he had an uncle, my great uncle, my uncle by the way may have been known to a number of people here. He was the old man Hamburg as he was referred to, who had what I now realize must've been a pawn shop. We used to consider it a second hand shore on Preston street, between Liberty and Jefferson. And this old man by 2:00the way was later murdered there many years later. But my father came to Louisville when he decided not to be a rabbi, and settled here because he had an uncle.

Betty Abramson:

The cousin. What about your mother?

Annette S.:

My mother lived, was born and reared in St. Louis. And my mother came to Louisville because she had ... She came here on a visit, actually. She had an uncle, again who was probably known by some old timers who I don't know still exist. But Nathan Gold was her uncle. Her mother's brother. And he came here for the same reason that my other great uncle came. United HIAS distributed people around when they came to this country-

Betty Abramson:

What is United HIAS?

Annette S.:

It's the Hebrew Immigration ... whatever AS stands for. Something. Aid Society. Hebrew Immigration Aid Society. And when people came to this country in the 3:00early 1900s, the HIAS distributed them around the country. Much as we tried to do with our Soviet immigrants now.

Betty Abramson:

Oh, interesting. I've not heard of that before.

Annette S.:

Yes. They tried to get many of them off the east coast, and it just happened that my uncle Hamburg was sent to Louisville by HIAS. And my mother had an uncle who was sent here. And on a personal note, I have to tell you, my mother came here to soothe a broken heart. She had become engaged to someone of whom her mother disapproved. And in those days a mother could tell her child, "No, you won't marry him." So she broke her engagement and came here to soothe her broken heart. And-

Betty Abramson:

And the uncle-

Annette S.:

To visit this uncle.

Betty Abramson:

But tell me, you said your mother was born in St. Louis?

Annette S.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Betty Abramson:

And where did her parents come from?

Annette S.:

They were both from St. Louis-

Betty Abramson:

Her parents also?

Annette S.:

Her parents were also from St. Louis.

Betty Abramson:

Well do you know ... Can you trace their history as to how they got to St. Louis?

Annette S.:

Not really. I really don't know exactly. I know that my grandfather had had a previous marriage. And I don't think his first wife ever got to this country. He came here ostensibly to earn money, I think to send for his family. The children were sent on ahead. He had - my mother had two sisters who were from her father's previous marriage. And they came to this country. And then I don't think his first wife ever got here. Now, whether she chose not to, whether she died before she came here, because she did die very young, but I really don't know because she was not my grandmother. My grandfather then married the lady who was my grandmother.

Betty Abramson:

And was she born in St. Louis?

Annette S.:

She was born in St. Louis.

Betty Abramson:

And you do not know about ...

Annette S.:

No. I don't know the root ... I don't know anything there.

Betty Abramson:

Well, it's interesting if you do. Sometimes you do and sometimes you don't.

Annette S.:

Yeah. I'm sorry to say that I have a great deal of interest in it without any ambition to dig up the family. And unfortunately, longevity is not our family's strong suit.

Betty Abramson:

Well, you said your mother had two sisters?

Annette S.:

My mother had two sisters from that previous marriage. There were eight of them altogether.

Betty Abramson:

Oh, really?

Annette S.:

My mother had five sisters ... and my mother. There were six daughters. Who followed her to Louisville after she married my father and settled in Louisville. And she became lonely for her family. She brought one sister down here who had married. And she told her Louisville was indeed the land of milk and honey, and she lured my aunt and uncle here. And I have to assume he found a job and everything was okay there. But this sister was a year and a half younger than my mother, which was the sin of sins to have married before my mother, but 6:00since my mother's romance didn't work out in St. Louis, her sister was given special permission to marry there.

Annette S.:

And she had two children, and she moved here because my mother was lonely for her. And then the sister who moved here was one of twins, so she found it very difficult to be here without her twin sister. So my aunt sent for the second sister to come down. And then when my grandparents realized that they had three children in St. Louis and three children in Louisville, and Louisville was spoken of so glowingly, they decided that they would move here. So they moved here with their other two children.

Betty Abramson:

Very interesting.

Annette S.:

And that's how they all settled in Louisville.

Betty Abramson:

So they all became Louisvillians?

Annette S.:

Yes. Right. My [crosstalk 00:06:54].

Betty Abramson:

What about your father? Did he come here? Or did he have any relatives that came here other than the uncle?

Annette S.:

Oh yes. After my father got here, and after he saved up enough money to send for 7:00a member of his family he bought a violin instead, and by the way-

Betty Abramson:

Bought what?

Annette S.:

A violin.

Betty Abramson:

Oh really?

Annette S.:

And I still am a proud possessor of that violin and I treasure it. It was dated 1905. And that was when he didn't have food to eat, and hadn't saved the amount of money he was supposed to save to send for the next members of his family. But he did indeed then save money, and he sent for his parents. And they had two children who they brought with them. And then they had unfortunately a number of children that even my father couldn't remember. They died very young in Europe before they got here.

Betty Abramson:

And the name of the place in Latvia again?

Annette S.:

Riva Courland. Courland was the state, Riva was the city.

Betty Abramson:

Oh, mm-hmm (affirmative).

Annette S.:

And there are some people here in Louisville who lived there-

Betty Abramson:

That's the part of this whole family history we're trying to do is that certain people came from certain places to Louisville, and they will be repeated over and over again.

Annette S.:

Yes. It will indeed, because this is a ... As it happens, some of these people ... Not because they followed each other, but they just happen to have found themselves in Louisville when they had originated from the same shtetl in Europe.

Betty Abramson:

Tell me, now your maiden name was Simon.

Annette S.:

Right.

Betty Abramson:

Did you have sisters or brothers?

Annette S.:

I had sisters and brothers. I had no brothers. I had two sisters. I am the second daughter. There were three of us. Unfortunately both of my sisters have passed away. As I say, longevity is not one of our chief virtues. I was born on 9:007th and Oak, which was not one of the more exclusive areas. But we had a business there-

Betty Abramson:

What kind of business?

Annette S.:

We had a grocery store. A meat market. And I was born on November 3rd, 1924, which was when Calvin Coolidge was elected.

Betty Abramson:

To the day?

Annette S.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). And my older sister used to tell the story that there were, in those days ... The young people who hear this won't know what it is, but there were extras on the street. And there weren't television sets. And even radio I guess wasn't terribly prevalent. When a big news even occurred they would put out what they called an extra edition of the newspaper. And the news boys would stand out on the street and call, "Extra, extra!" And that's what it was called. An extra edition.

Annette S.:

And of course all the excitement was that Calvin Coolidge had been elected. But 10:00my sister, who was six years old at that time, thought that all of the excitement was because she had a new little sister. So she thought that I was born in a historical moment.

Betty Abramson:

Well, you were. You really were. And you said your father came here from Cleveland. Do you know what year he came here?

Annette S.:

He came here in 1905. Don't ask me how I know that. I just remember his having said.

Betty Abramson:

And your parents were married then here in Louisville?

Annette S.:

No, they were married in St. Louis.

Betty Abramson:

Oh they were?

Annette S.:

And then they moved to Louisville. No, my mother's home until she married was in St. Louis. And then they moved to Louisville. They were married on July 3rd so they could come to Louisville for some kind of a big celebration at the old YMHA on the 4th of July. And that was, I think, the way they spent their honeymoon was at-

Betty Abramson:

That's a wonderful beginning for the YMHA, of course.

Annette S.:

We have been YMHA oriented I guess ever since.

Betty Abramson:

Where do you live? Was it an area where you had ... Did grandparents or ants and uncles live in the same house with you?

Annette S.:

No. No. At that time we lived where we did ... A very short time. Because it was nearer our business. We later moved, for no particular reason that I can think of, I mean, geographically, but we moved to 1428 South Floyd Street. That was on Floyd street between Woodbine and Burrent. I don't even know if the street still exists.

Betty Abramson:

Tell me how old you were approximately when you moved there.

Annette S.:

Well, I was preschool age, because I remember that ... No, I did actually start first grade at George H. Tinley School. And I went there for just a few weeks when my family again moved to 109 East St. Catherine. And that was in the 12:00Englehard School District, and I started first grade at Englehard School.

Betty Abramson:

What do you remember your neighborhood was like? Any of the three.

Annette S.:

Well, Floyd street I was really too young. In fact, I remember 109 East St. Katherine because we lived downstairs from the Goldsteins, and down the street from the Persky's. And Mr. Persky was the chef at [inaudible 00:12:32] here at that time. And I remember it was my first or probably only exposure to truly orthodox or ultra orthodox people. And it was a whole new experience for me.

Betty Abramson:

Did your parents belong to a congregation?

Annette S.:

My parents joined Adath Jeshurun congregation the day after Rabbi Gidleman assumed the pulpit there in 1917. And Rabbi Gidleman became a human deity almost 13:00from the day we were born. But that was after my ... Both my father and mother had orthodox backgrounds, but my father had decided not only not to be a rabbi, but at one point until my mother ... I guess my mother was one of those lucky wives who could say no, my father had made all kinds of plans to be an atheist, but my mother said no. So he wasn't an atheist. But the compromise was that they were not Orthodox. They became conservative.

Betty Abramson:

What else do you remember about your neighborhood? Do you remember did it have a drugstore? Grocery store-

Annette S.:

Oh yes. We walked down to Fischer's drug store and bought popsicles -

Betty Abramson:

How far was it-

Annette S.:

- like a half block. And we bought popsicles, and they were twin popsicles for a nickel. And one day it was my day to pay, and one day it was somebody else's day to pay. And I had a younger sister and an older sister, and one day my younger 14:00sister, Selma Jean, followed me to Fischer's drug store because I wouldn't take her, and got hit by a car because I as supposed to have been watching her, but I was trying to act like she wasn't there. And I was just about hysterical over that. So from then on I had to promise to take her and share my popsicle with her to atone for this terrible experience.

Betty Abramson:

Of course. You mentioned some of your neighbors. And did you walk to school?

Annette S.:

Yes, we were just a couple of blocks from the school. It so happens we were kind of spoiled brats. In fact, I had a man ask me a number of years ago now, maybe 10 or 15 years ago, whether I have ever been in the rain. And I didn't quite get the significance until he reminded me he used to deliver to my father's store. And if it looked like rain or if it rained yesterday or looked like it was going to rain tomorrow, certainly if it were raining at that minute, my father dropped 15:00everything and ran to pick up his children so that they didn't walk home in the rain.

Annette S.:

So we were just a couple of blocks, but we used to get pretty good pick up and delivery service. At that time, my mother was one of the few mothers who drove a car-

Betty Abramson:

That is unusual.

Annette S.:

Most mothers didn't drive cars. The one mother of a friend of mine in later years who drove a car had a husband who had a severe heart condition, so she had to drive a car. And that was the only lady I knew who drove a car. So my mother was a Jewish mother taxi driver [crosstalk 00:15:41].

Betty Abramson:

- Ahead of her time - You said you belonged to Adath Jeshurun, did you go to Sunday School there?

Annette S.:

Yes, I did. As a matter of fact I went with you. I went to ... all through Sunday School there. I remember as a small child and I've told Rabbi [Slosberg 00:15:55] this because I was out having done the arithmetic I imagine that Rabbi Gibleman was something close to the age that Rabbi Slosberg is now. Or perhaps 16:00he's as he was when he came to Louisville. And Rabbi Gibleman used to swing us. When he used to come visit us he used to pick us up and swing us.

Betty Abramson:

What do you mean? In his hands?

Annette S.:

Yeah, in his hands. He used to pick us up and swing us, and that was a big treat when he'd come in to visit us in Sunday School in those downstairs rooms-

Betty Abramson:

Oh, in the school rooms?

Annette S.:

Yes. In those downstairs rooms in the basement of the old at Jeshurun [Brooking College 00:16:32].

Betty Abramson:

I remember those.

Annette S.:

Well, our kindergarten class was out in the - like in the entrance way. One of our regular rituals as Sunday School students was that we went to synagogue on Saturday. And then afterwards from Brooking College we'd walk downtown and go to what was then called Lerner's Delicatessen or Lerner's Restaurant. It was on 3rd 17:00and Walnut. And in those days I didn't want to eat tripe. So we used to get a hot dog and coke for 16 cents. The extra penny being a sales tax that we had at that time. It was 10 cents for a kosher hot dog, and if you wanted these tripes, you could get one for a nickel. And a nickel for the coke.

Betty Abramson:

Was this a kosher restaurant?

Annette S.:

Yes. Yes it was. And if you really wanted to live dangerously, and I was accused of being a little tight, you could get a corned beef sandwich for 12 cents, but I just couldn't be that extravagant and pay the extra two cents. Now my friends did. And then we'd go to the movies which cost us 16 cents.

Betty Abramson:

Where were the movies located?

Annette S.:

Well, the Strand was on Walnut Street. Chestnut - Chestnut Street, that's right. We went to the Strand. Sure, it was across the street from where Lerner's was on 3rd Street. That's right. And then we'd go to the Lowe's or the Rialto, they 18:00were on 4th Street. Some of the Thin Man pictures were at the Mary Anderson, but the only thing wrong with that was it was only a single feature, and it spoiled some of the fun because we wanted a double feature that would save money.

Betty Abramson:

I can understand that.

Annette S.:

And Hayden Reed, do you remember Hayden Reed and Steve Oregon? [crosstalk 00:18:31] The Lowe's theater, and we could spend a whole day there.

Betty Abramson:

Do you remember the bouncing ball?

Annette S.:

Oh, absolutely. I even remember some of the words and some of the parodies he used to have on the screen when we used to sing the story of the glory of love. And he had some parodies for that.

Betty Abramson:

Oh really?

Annette S.:

Really. It was fun. Sure I remember.

Betty Abramson:

You wanted as much for your money as possible.

Annette S.:

That's right. So we used to have a fun time with that.

Betty Abramson:

You were talking about you wanted to eat kosher, you didn't want to eat tripe. 19:00Was your household kosher? I mean did you have [crosstalk 00:19:08]-

Annette S.:

I have to tell you a very ridiculous story, but it is the honest to goodness truth. I had always assumed that my house was kosher. Nobody had told me that it was. On the other hand, nobody had told me that it wasn't. In 1937, you may recall, we had a flood-

Betty Abramson:

Where did you live then?

Annette S.:

I lived in 110 West Hill.

Betty Abramson:

Okay.

Annette S.:

In an apartment building. The Turneys lived on the second floor. Marvin, Alvin, and Ethel Turney. And the Weinbergs, Zelma Weinberg and Alfred Weinberg's parents lived on the third floor across the hall from us. And we all had what we called refuge because we thought we were all safe from floodwaters. And I know I'm skipping a lot areas in between, but when you ask about kosher I have to tell you-

Betty Abramson:

Yes, of course-

Annette S.:

That we ... So we all had ... I had in my house, we had my grandmother and my ant and uncle and their four children. And the Turney's had the Robinsons. And the Weinbergs had the Snows, I remember. So we all pooled our resources and shared our food as far as it would go. And there was a signal that you used to put in our window. We had water out in front of our house and we couldn't leave. So you put a lantern in your window, and that meant when the Red Cross was driving - was boating - in front of your house, if they saw a lantern they knew that you needed food. So they brought food and we shared it. And one of the things that they brought was a case, or maybe cases of Campbell's chicken noodle soup.

Annette S.:

And I mentioned to my older sister that my mother was such a good sport that she had given us this chicken noodle soup and put it in her pot even though it 21:00wasn't kosher. And I was so amazed that she was such a good sport about it she didn't even complain. And my sister says, "Well, do you think that we are kosher?" And I said, "Do you mean we're not?" Well, she thought it was a riot. And I just never ... I guess I never asked. Nobody ever said. Well, I asked my mother, "Is our house kosher? Are we kosher?" My mother said, "No." And it was never a secret from me but I thought it was.

Annette S.:

That's when maybe we stopped going to Lerner's because my girlfriends didn't like going there.

Betty Abramson:

That's great. A lot of people, I guess that's when they perhaps stopped. They never even really started. And probably there was just never any mixture of-

Annette S.:

I was just going to say that. Yes. And to this day, in my house I don't mix milk and meat. I'm not kosher, but I don't mix milk and meat. And I guess that's a throwback to my childhood where I never saw anything blatantly not kosher. So I just assumed it.

Betty Abramson:

What do you remember as far as the way your family celebrated the various holidays? Is there anything in particular?

Annette S.:

It's funny. It's very fresh in my mind at the moment, because this being Passover, I relive why do I work so hard and why do I change dishes? I change dishes on Passover.

Betty Abramson:

Do you really?

Annette S.:

And we have two Seders. And we have the, what we call Shabbat, now Shabbat dinners on Friday nights. They're not traditional, we don't have chicken soup and chicken [inaudible 00:22:34] necessarily and that sort of thing. But the family still gets together, and this is a throwback to my childhood. That we did all of these rituals. We [inaudible 00:22:45] and I still do. Or actually my niece Jay [inaudible 00:22:48] in my home on Shabbat.

Betty Abramson:

Do you get together-

Annette S.:

Yes.

Betty Abramson:

On Shabbat for dinner too?

Annette S.:

Every Friday night.

Betty Abramson:

That's wonderful.

Annette S.:

And it's just a ... It's almost ... I mean, I don't want to apologize for being 23:00religious, except it's not necessarily a religious ritual. It's a family custom that began with my parents-

Betty Abramson:

It's a tradition.

Annette S.:

It's traditional. And it's the same kind of thing. We get together on Hanukkah and we have our blintzes together on Shavuot. And we have two Seders. Again, I don't want to sound like I have to explain-

Betty Abramson:

You don't-

Annette S.:

That we're not religious, but we're not religious. We just are very-

Betty Abramson:

Observant-

Annette S.:

Traditional and we observe the ritual. As I think back now I think that much of everybody's present is involved with his or her past. My mother became very active with the Adath Jeshurun sisterhood. And as a result, whenever there were plays and that kind of thing, and they seem to have been big on those because I guess they didn't have money to bring in lecturers as we do now-

Betty Abramson:

Do you remember, I'm interrupting you, do you remember some of the things like cafeteria cupboards and the - [crosstalk 00:24:11]

Annette S.:

Oh do I. At Summer's Park and at Jennings Park. And my mother cooked for them. And Ada Klein, Merle Klein's mother kicked us out of the kitchen when we'd come in to ask my mother for a dime to go buy something or something. And she'd kick us out of the kitchen because they were too busy and we were annoying the help.

Annette S.:

But my mother was very active in the sisterhood. And Summer's Park and at Jennings Park. And when they had plays at the Sunday School, I was always in the plays. And my mother thought that I had some kind of talent. It was only in later years that we discovered that the real reason I was always in the plays was that ... We didn't have PA systems in those days, and I always had a voice that carried. And they could hear me out in the auditorium. When I would speak 25:00from the stage I would get all these parts in the plays because that could be heard readily and because I memorized fairly easily. My mother was heartbroken in later years to learn that it wasn't my talent.

Annette S.:

My mother was also very active in the Hadassah. But somehow I guess Hadassah didn't have to encourage people to come to the meetings the way the sisterhoods did. And I think the sisterhood used to do that by putting kids in plays and then making their mothers come to see them perform. And I have in my possession a picture of you and me and a bunch of other little girls and boys in a Tom Thumb Wedding that we were in that I'll have to bring and show to you sometime.

Betty Abramson:

Maybe a copy of that to go with the archive-

Annette S.:

I would never give it up, but if they want a copy of it they may have it. But I have it framed. I'll bring it in and show it to you.

Betty Abramson:

Really? I'd love to see it.

Annette S.:

But my mother was very much involved in the sisterhood and in Hadassah.

Betty Abramson:

Was your father involved in any of the men's organizations?

Annette S.:

No. I really don't think so. I think my father was very busy making a living. And not that all fathers weren't, but I guess that maybe ... I never thought about it, but I guess maybe it wasn't his cup of tea.

Betty Abramson:

But he did go to services regularly?

Annette S.:

Oh yes. Yes. Well, not regularly, no. We were not regular service goers. We did go to shul on Saturday because that was expected of us-

Betty Abramson:

Did your father?

Annette S.:

No. Neither my mother nor my father, actually. I think they probably worked in the store. And we went with our friends.

Betty Abramson:

Tell me something about ... Being an only child, I can't really appreciate what it's like to have siblings. Tell me something about you and your two sisters.

Annette S.:

Well, as we were growing up I didn't think that ... I mean, in my very early years I didn't think that having siblings was such a big deal. I am glad to be able to say that long before they passed away I did learn to appreciate my 27:00sisters. And I have to say, they learned to tolerate me. I was a middle child, and had every syndrome that a middle child is entitled to. My two sisters were 12 years apart. Each of us was - my older sister was six years older than I, my younger sister was six years younger than I. And they really got along beautifully with each other, and liked each other a great deal. They didn't like me as much. I was really a typical middle child.

Annette S.:

I was the least attractive. Certainly the least outgoing. The-

Betty Abramson:

I think you're putting yourself down.

Annette S.:

It's true. It's honestly true. In fact, they used to accuse me of being daddy's pet. And perhaps I was, but it was because my daddy really felt that he had to compensate for the fact that my sisters really liked each other better than they liked me. And I fought with my older sister, and I fought with my younger sister. And I was always reminded when my older sister go to go someplace or do 28:00something that I couldn't do that she's six years older than I. And when my younger sister had an advantage because she was the baby. And I think my father really did try really hard to compensate. I was a typical middle child.

Annette S.:

And they were both attractive and very friendly, very social, and I was none of those things. So I became the student in the family. Which didn't make me any great scholar, but it made me work much harder to excel where I could do best.

Betty Abramson:

How much schooling - how far in school did you go? What schools did you go to? You said Englehard.

Annette S.:

I went to Englehard School with a lot of the kids who I ... Kids. A lot of the old people who I see around here now-

Betty Abramson:

Very young people.

Annette S.:

Yes, absolutely. Well, let me tell you that, Eva. Youth is not something that I envy. I am 66 years old, and I don't want to be 65. Honestly. I have never lied 29:00about my age. I always lie about my weight. In fact, I just don't even discuss it. But I like being old -

Betty Abramson:

You're not old. You're at the first day of the rest of your life.

Annette S.:

Absolutely, and I love it. I feel very fortunate. I have lived longer than any member of my family believe it or not. Nobody lived to 66 in my family. My parents were each 53.

Betty Abramson:

Really?

Annette S.:

And my older sister was 47. My younger sister was 55. All passed away. So my older sister, by the way, married. My sister was Lorraine. She taught Sunday School at Adath Jeshurun from the time she was 18 years old until almost the week before she passed away. And there are a couple of generations-

Betty Abramson:

What was her married name?

Annette S.:

[Heinerfeld 00:29:59].

Betty Abramson:

She have any children?

Annette S.:

She had two daughters. Jay Heinerfeld [Sparber 00:30:04], who lives here in 30:00Louisville now. And her younger daughter Sherry Heinerfeld Towman, who lives in Reston, Virginia.

Betty Abramson:

It sounds like there are a lot of girls in your family.

Annette S.:

We had girls. Now Jay had two boys, which was the shock of our lives. My mother was one of eight girls-

Betty Abramson:

I know, I heard you say that.

Annette S.:

My father had seven sisters and just my father and his brother.

Betty Abramson:

Oh, you didn't say that.

Annette S.:

That are only the two boys in the family. Unfortunately, this had another disadvantage. Both the Kaplan name and the Simon name have died with my generation.

Betty Abramson:

Well, the [Wealth 00:30:41] name is gone, so I can appreciate that too -

Annette S.:

Really? There were no ... My uncle had no children and my father had no boys.

Betty Abramson:

Because I was going to ask you if you had ... with your mother's sisters being here, with your father's family being here, if you had cousins-

Annette S.:

I think I do have cousins. Some of my cousins have passed away, but I do have cousins here. The [Marulus' 00:31:04] were my cousins. And unfortunately all 31:00three of them have passed away. Harold and Lester Marulus and Mildred Marulus Beyer.

Annette S.:

My mother's other sisters, one of them was a Miller. Anita Miller Rothman is my cousin. And another one was Rose Kaplan Levitz. And Arnold Levitz is my cousin. And then there are a couple of cousins. The Goldbergs who live in Los Angeles and in Tucson. And then there was another sister who married another Goldberg.

Annette S.:

And then my father's family were all girls also. Except for my father and Charlie Simon, who had the delicatessens here. And he started his delicatessen business, by the way, by having bought a store that, again you and I wouldn't 32:00know about. Although I do sort of remember it. Feidleson's on Preston and Jefferson.

Betty Abramson:

I remember hearing the name Feidleson.

Annette S.:

Well, the first Mrs. Feidleson was a Simon.

Betty Abramson:

Oh.

Annette S.:

Yes. That was my father's sister.

Betty Abramson:

Oh really? Because it used to be, I know that Feidleson and corned beef was synonymous.

Annette S.:

Exactly. Exactly. And that's where my uncle Charlie got his training was with my ant Gussie Feidleson. Who later by the way had two children, one of whom was Libby Fox, Dr. Gary Fox's mother. And there was another daughter who died. Uncle Charlie went into the delicatessen business. He toured World War II. He bought out Feidleson's. And that was probably like in 1939. In about 1942, and I'm not absolutely sure of the dates but pretty close, he opened a store. He moved from 33:00there because there was no more Jewish community centered around that area as there had been when the Feidlesons had been there. And he took his corned beef secrets there and moved to 3rd and Jefferson. Jefferson between 3rd and 4th. 330 West Jefferson. And he remained there.

Betty Abramson:

How long was he there? I remember it so well-

Annette S.:

Till after World War II, and then he moved to Florida. And he lived in Florida for about 10 years, and then came back here and opened up on Bonnycastle, on Bardstown and Bonnycastle-

Betty Abramson:

Oh I wondered how he got to Bardstown Road, because that's what I was wondering about.

Annette S.:

That was in later years when ... The Jewish community by that time didn't exist downtown. And as I say he took his corned beef secrets with him to Florida and back to-

Betty Abramson:

I wish he had left them someplace, because we don't have a kosher delicatessen in Louisville.

Annette S.:

I think someplace I left off in the middle that my older sister had two daughters and that's how we got sidetracked that the girls run in our family. And Jay Heinerfeld Sparber, Lorraine's daughter, has two boys. Lane Scarborough who is named after Lorraine, and Jared Scarborough. And my younger niece in order to be sure ... Well, for many reasons, but one of them was to be sure that she had girls adopted hers. So she adopted two girls. So we do now have some girls in the family again. But I feel very fortunate that for one who doesn't have ...

Annette S.:

And, I guess I should've mentioned someplace in there I got married.

Betty Abramson:

Yes, when did you get married?

Annette S.:

I got married on April 12th, 1953. My husband David Seigerman was working here in Louisville at that time-

Betty Abramson:

Was he permanent?

Annette S.:

He came here from New Jersey by way of Europe actually. David was born in Russia.

Betty Abramson:

Oh really? Do you know the name of the town?

Annette S.:

He grew up near Gubernia, and I don't know what the means or where it is. David's family was living in this, whatever shtetl where they were living. He father was killed in a [inaudible 00:35:21]. His-

Betty Abramson:

Does he remember it?

Annette S.:

No. He was an infant. He was either one, two, or three, depending on how my mother-in-law told the story. We were never quite sure of David's age. We picked the closest age to Social Security, and I don't mind being an old man's darling, so he's six years older than I am. He may either be five or four years older than I am.

Betty Abramson:

Okay, now how come ... He came from this village. What made him come to Louisville?

Annette S.:

Well, it's a peculiar kind of a story, but my mother-in-law and father-in-law and two children lived in this shtetl and when the soldiers, the Russian 36:00soldiers came through the town, my mother-in-law picked up David and took him out to the barn to hide. The father never got out of the house with the other child. So my father-in-law was stabbed with a saber that went through my father-in-law went first through the child who he was holding-

Betty Abramson:

Oh, how awful.

Annette S.:

- went in and out of David's brother, and fortunately didn't hit any vital organs, and went into the father and killed him.

Betty Abramson:

So the father-

Annette S.:

Killed the father but not the child. But he lived with the remainder of this injury for the rest of his life. And many years later in World War II was discharged from the Navy because of this old injury.

Betty Abramson:

Really?

Annette S.:

He had been hit on the back of the head with the back of the saber, and he had a place on his head where hair never grew. My mother-in-law picked up her two 37:00children, and she never knew how to explain how she accomplished this, but she ran away to Antwerp, Belgium. And she had a sister who lived in Staten Island, New York. And somehow found herself, we have the manifest of the ship on which she came-

Betty Abramson:

Do you?

Annette S.:

- and she somehow got to this country. She never quite knew how she managed it. But with two children ... And she had to smuggle my brother-in-law, David's brother in, because he had an injury. And when they got to Ellis Island she had kept his head wound covered with a cloth. The body wound she was able to keep covered with his clothing.

Betty Abramson:

And this manifest that you say you have, is there any way you could make a copy for us so we could have it in our archives?

Annette S.:

Oh, I'd be delighted. It's very interesting.

Betty Abramson:

I'm sure it must be.

Annette S.:

It tells the ages of the people who were on this ship and where they were coming from. And by the way how much money they had on them.

Betty Abramson:

Oh really?

Annette S.:

And my mother-in-law it seems had something like $30 in American money when she brought these two children here. One of whom, as I say, was kept a dark deep secret because he was injured and he would not have been able to be admitted at Ellis Island when they came to this country. So she disguised his injuries. And no doctor would treat him because he was a Jewish child and it was just -

Betty Abramson:

No doctor where would treat him?

Annette S.:

In Europe. Until he got here.

Betty Abramson:

Oh, in Europe.

Annette S.:

Until he got here, he was never treated. My mother in law treated it with clean rags.

Betty Abramson:

Okay, about what year are we talking?

Annette S.:

David was born we think in 1918, so I think this manifest is dated 1921.

Betty Abramson:

Oh really?

Annette S.:

I'm almost positive that's the date. Like I say, I'll be glad to bring it in. It's very interesting.

Betty Abramson:

And at that time he couldn't be treated because he was Jewish?

Annette S.:

Not in Europe.

Betty Abramson:

Not in Europe.

Annette S.:

Not while he was in Europe. Not until he came to this country.

Betty Abramson:

What made your mother-in-law come to Louisville?

Annette S.:

She had a sister ... She didn't come to Louisville. My mother-in-law lived in Staten Island, New York. And she married sometime after she came here. David was put in an orphanage, because her sister could take care of one child but not two. So he would go home on weekends, and during the week when my mother-in-law was working, he lived in an orphanage. So when she found a man willing to marry her and support her two children, she married and they moved to New Jersey. And David went to school there, and later to Indiana University, then to the Army, then back to Indiana University.

Annette S.:

And when he went back to New Jersey, he discovered that there was a place called 40:00the Jewish Welfare Board. And the Jewish Welfare Board had a placement agency. So he went there to find out about jobs. And he found out that there was one available in Louisville, Kentucky, and one in St. Louis. So he ... This was in 1948 or 49, I think. 49. And he and his friends who had gone up there together, and friend with whom he had graduated from college, I guess flipped a coin and decided the friend would apply in St. Louis and he would apply in Louisville.

Betty Abramson:

Because there was a lovely young lady waiting for him in Louisville.

Annette S.:

Well, I don't know if she was lovely, and I don't know if she was waiting, but she was over the hill-

Betty Abramson:

Oh, come on.

Annette S.:

- by that time I was really an old ... Oh, I was. By those days standards, I was always very much aware that if my mother had bee living she would've been heartbroken, or I would've been married. One or the other would've happened, because I was 28 when I got married.

Betty Abramson:

How old were you when your mother passed away?

Annette S.:

I was 24 when my mother passed away.

Betty Abramson:

And your father?

Annette S.:

I was 19. My parents were each 53 when they died, but they died five years apart. My father was five years older than my mother. So my mother just never would've allowed me to stay single all those years.

Betty Abramson:

What would she have done?

Annette S.:

She would've found me a boyfriend, or she would've found a friend who found me a husband. I mean, she just wouldn't have permitted it. And my kid sister never married. And we used to joke about it all the time, because this could not have happened if my mother had been alive. We couldn't have broken her heart and done those things. But it was well advised that I waited.

Betty Abramson:

And y'all have been married how long now?

Annette S.:

We'll be married 39 years this April 12. And David came to work at the YMHA-

Betty Abramson:

It is a beautiful date, April 12 because it was my [crosstalk 00:42:01]-

Annette S.:

It's a special sentiment of that. As a matter of fact, I have to tell you that I 42:00selected the date ... I had two choices, April 12th or April 19th. And I have a friend who was married on the same day you were, the day that President Roosevelt died.

Betty Abramson:

Really?

Annette S.:

And I chose the date of their anniversary because theirs was a very happy marriage, and I decided that April 12th was a marvelous day.

Betty Abramson:

It was a beautiful day and made for very happy marriages.

Annette S.:

They seem to have thought that way too. So we selected that date. And as I said, David came to work at the YMHA and I was working there at that time. I was working in the armed services office. I came to work at the YMHA in 1944. Yes, '44. So I was working there when David came there. And he says that the reason that he asked me out the first time was that there was a lovely lady who used to work there who all of us old timers would remember, Renetta Mayer.

Betty Abramson:

I remember.

Annette S.:

And I have to tell you that I have in my possession a watch that Renetta Mayer willed me-

Betty Abramson:

Really?

Annette S.:

When her cousin came here and told me it was in her will ... We gave her a watch when she left the YMHA, and it's engraved on the back that it's from her friends at the YMHA.

Betty Abramson:

How long did you work with her?

Annette S.:

Well, she left there before we came here. I think my watch is dated 1948, something like that. '48 or ... No no, it would've been later than that. We moved in here in 1955. No, I think it must be dated 1950.

Betty Abramson:

When you went to work in 1944 at the old YMHA, how many of the, what you would say the older staff, the remembered staff of the YMHA was still there?

Annette S.:

Well, Lyons Cook was the executive director and then he was drafted. And then he 44:00came back. And in the interim, Al Erlin, who was at that time the director of what was called the Jewish Welfare Federation, which is not what we think of as the federation now. Al was - the Jewish Welfare Federation was at that time what is now the Jewish Social Service Agency.

Annette S.:

There were a couple of other legends on the staff at that time. Ralph [Flumbom 00:44:28] was the business manager I think he was called, or something to that effect. And Pauline Pearson was working there at that time. And, but my office was a separate one. I worked for the what was then the USO office. And they tell me now that they forgot to tell me that the war ended so I never left. Because actually, I went there just as a temporary job until the war ended.

Betty Abramson:

I was going to say, I didn't know there was a USO office there.

Annette S.:

Yeah. As a matter of fact, Louisville's claim to fame is that the USO really 45:00originated in February 1941. The Louisville YMHA developed an Army and Navy committee before that date, when the local communities were asked to establish Army and Navy committees, which is what they were called then. We already had a committee in place beginning with the draft, the minute there became a military conscription. And Jewish soldiers were sent to Fort Knox, our Jewish community organized and set up a committee to serve Jewish servicemen before it was a national effort.

Betty Abramson:

May I ask you, because I remember my mother talking, or pictures maybe I've seen from World War I, didn't the Jewish soldiers come to the HMA-

Annette S.:

As a matter of fact, yes. That's why the YMHA had this kind of history and knew 46:00exactly what to do. In fact, there are pictures here on the wall in this very room where we are of World War I. Arthur Kling, who we all remember so fondly was the JWB worker - the Jewish Welfare Board worker - at that time, stationed at Camp Taylor, which is the predecessor to Fort Knox. Which was at that time it became Camp Knox.

Betty Abramson:

Annette, you worked at the YMH - at the Jewish Community Center, and you worked at the YMHA. Tell me some of your memories of the HA, as we used to call it, while you were growing up.

Annette S.:

I think it's funny, because I've used the statement, and it's true, I grew up at 47:00the YMHA, and I grew old at the YMHA. And I am, thank God, continuing to grow old here. But my early memories are living on the ... First and St. Catherine, but then I was too young. Then we moved to 2nd and Hill, to 110 West Hill, and sometimes walking and most of the time getting rides there to the YMHA, to Girl Scouts at the YMHA. I remember that Helen Ruth, she was Schatz at that time, was one of my scout leaders. And Frances Wasserman, now [Shekin 00:47:40] was one of my scout leaders.

Betty Abramson:

And this was ... I don't remember the girls having a scout troop. I remember the boys always had-

Annette S.:

Oh yeah. I remember ... As a matter of fact, I remember thinking that I wish ... I always wished I were pretty like Rina Spekter. She is now Rina Marcus and lives in Frankfurt, Kentucky. But she used to wear her scout dress, scout 48:00uniform, to school ever Monday. And she looked so pretty, and I was always so disheveled-

Betty Abramson:

Oh, come on-

Annette S.:

- and not nearly as-

Betty Abramson:

Okay, tell me about school. You talk about the HA and the scouts. You said you went to Englehard-

Annette S.:

I went to Englehard and then my family moved to 2nd and Hill and I went to Cochran for just 6A, which is just half of the year of the sixth grade.

Betty Abramson:

And then where'd you go to junior high school?

Annette S.:

To Hallick, which is now Manual. My schools don't exist anymore.

Betty Abramson:

Cochran's still there.

Annette S.:

Yes. Well, Cochran I understand is closing, by the way.

Betty Abramson:

Oh, it was supposed to-

Annette S.:

It was an old ... I was going to say about my early memories of the YMHA though, we used to go to-

Betty Abramson:

Let me go a little bit farther. Did you graduate from Hallick Hall?

Annette S.:

Yes. From girl's high school.

Betty Abramson:

Did you continue on?

Annette S.:

I continued at U of L. And never left Louisville. It's never been one of my 49:00ambitions to leave Louisville.

Betty Abramson:

Yeah, I'm a Louisvillian way back too, so I can appreciate that.

Annette S.:

As a matter of fact, I was discussing with somebody just the other day that there was a day when it was a claim to fame to say, "I've worked at the same place for 47 years." Now it sounds like somebody totally lacking in ambition.

Betty Abramson:

47 years? Is that how long?

Annette S.:

47 years. That's how long I've worked here. But you know, now it sounds like somebody who didn't have the ambition. And I didn't.

Betty Abramson:

Definitely [crosstalk 00:49:32] hold a job.

Annette S.:

I was not a fly by night job holder, that's for sure. But the thing that we were discussing, and it's really true, when we went to arts and crafts at the old YMHA, it was down in the basement. The classes were held down in the basement of the old YMHA. And I thought that an integral part of a crafts class was to have water leak from pipes and have ... Really. I thought that was how you softened 50:00your clay.

Betty Abramson:

Oh, that's funny.

Annette S.:

Because we were ... Later we got very fancy and we got a Handmaker Lounge down there which meant that ... I think the pipes were covered with asbestos, which now makes everybody shudder. But in those days they were all exposed pipes. It was a basement with a, what we called a kitchen. And I think the war brought about some of the renovation, because we used to have our solider brunches down there-

Betty Abramson:

I remember serving the brunches downstairs.

Annette S.:

Exactly. There are pictures of those down here in what then became the Handmaker Lounge. The lounge was named after Steward Handmaker's father, who had died very young.

Betty Abramson:

And that's where all the dances used to be.

Annette S.:

Exactly. Exactly. Well, the reason they had to be down there was that originally the auditorium in World War II was turned into a dormitory.

Betty Abramson:

Oh, wow.

Annette S.:

There were not enough places for soldiers to sleep in the community.

Betty Abramson:

You mean the main auditorium-

Annette S.:

The main auditorium. And then when the crowd got too big for the Handmaker Lounge to accommodate the dances, the gym became the dormitory and Keneseth Israel and Brith Sholom, which were in the immediate vicinity, [coughs 00:51:16] excuse me, became dormitories. They turned over their auditoriums were dormitories, and soldiers who came in early enough on Saturdays could buy their beds for 35 cents and be assured of their [crosstalk 00:51:30]. Yes, for 35 cents and be assured of a place to sleep. So they ...

Betty Abramson:

Is this when you started working, prior to the USO-

Annette S.:

It started out with USO, right. And we went through a succession of directors. And one of our staff members, Margaret Freedlander later became the dance instructor at the old YMHA. She now lives in Tucson. But that should be somebody 52:00... Of course you had a boy, so you ... But you had girls-

Betty Abramson:

I have girls.

Annette S.:

Did they get taught ... Because little boys didn't go to the dance school. Anyway, Margaret Freedlander was also on our solider service staff. And we initiated something that was known all over the country. We had something called USO Show Stars. Morris Simon, a blessed memory, was the impresario who dreamed up this idea of getting entertainers, semi-professional and professional entertainers, who adhered to pretty strict standards by-

Betty Abramson:

Was Ms. Simon related to you by any chance?

Annette S.:

No. No, but they were ... It's interesting, because neither of their names was Simon when they lived in Europe.

Betty Abramson:

[crosstalk 00:52:48] What was their name in Europe?

Annette S.:

My father's name was Tzmnan. T-Z-M-N-A-N. He came to this country as Zelig Tzmnan. And by the time my grandmother got here he was Jacob Simon. That was his 53:00anglicized name. I don't know what the other Simon's name was, but Morris Simon, Leon Simon still lives here. Toby Waters still is one of those Simons. And Morris Simon was very much interested in music. He was the originator of our Jewish Community Center Orchestra, YMHA orchestra. Which later grew into, and I know I digress, but I can't resist-

Betty Abramson:

No, this is too important-

Annette S.:

In telling about Morris Simon, because he was a very unusual man. And he originated our YMHA orchestra, which later became - part of which later became the Louisville orchestra.

Betty Abramson:

I think it's a shame that more people don't know that. There are just maybe a few of us that are privileged to know. Because our Louisville orchestra is outstanding.

Annette S.:

Well, I do understand that this is part of their permanent notes now. Cantor Portnoy used to write their program notes. And I once contacted Cantor Portnoy 54:00to ask him if he were aware of the origins of this orchestra. And one time there was a history being written, and he told the person who was writing the history to call me. And this lady was not Jewish, but she was kind enough ... Her husband is Dr. Burkhead. I never met her but I talked to her on the phone, and I gave her this information including Morris' name, because it was very important that people know that Morris, never read a note of music, was called Mr. Music. When he died, the headlines in the paper said, "Mr. Music died." He was a very perceptive, very kind man, who never married. And he did more to encourage more musical education than probably any one person in this community.

Betty Abramson:

How interesting. I did not know that.

Annette S.:

He paved the way for many, many young people to have music lessons. And Morris [Perlmuder 00:55:09], who is now known as Morris King, Maury King, who lives in Las Vegas, and unfortunately has had a stroke and is unable to play now. But a very very talented violinist said that when he went for auditions, the first time he ever had a pair of pants and jacket of the same material were bought by Morris Simon because he sent him on auditions and wanted him to look nice.

Betty Abramson:

Did he have ... You said he didn't marry. Are there any of his relatives that still live in Louisville?

Annette S.:

Yes. Leon Simon is his nephew-

Betty Abramson:

Oh, you said that, yes.

Annette S.:

And Toby Waterstone is his niece. And he had another sister and brother who never married, with whom he lived. They have all passed away now.

Betty Abramson:

Wasn't that ... Over 47 years, I doubt if there are many people in Louisville 56:00that you do not know or you have not had contact with somewhere along the way.

Annette S.:

Old timers. Louisville is changing like every community. And-

Betty Abramson:

But how come the population of Jewish people is still around 10,000, the same as when I went to Sunday School?

Annette S.:

It's a funny thing, Betty, I remember two almost contradictory statements. When I first started working in the Jewish Community at the YMHA, there was a very, very prominent man, an attorney here, Charles W. Morris. And Mr. Morris was the founder of what is now the Federation, by the way. It was a Louisville Conference of Jewish Organizations. He was also nationally and internationally prominent. He was on the national board of the National Jewish Welfare Board. When Henry Wallace was Vice President of the United States, he stayed at Charles 57:00Morris' house when he came to Louisville.

Betty Abramson:

Really?

Annette S.:

He was a very very prominent man. And he had an obsession about taking a Jewish census. He didn't believe that it was a proper thing to do, and he thought that getting any kind of an accurate, or so called accurate number, would be an instrument for anti-Semitism.

Betty Abramson:

Really?

Annette S.:

And pretty much what Charlie Morris said went. But somehow, someway by contacting synagogues and that sort of thing, I remember very well the story that the Louisville Jewish population was 7,500. Now that was a guess. Not anything like a scientific study. In later years, we were told that it was something around 9,000 after World War II. And I'm like you, until this very day, I hear everything from 9,000 to 9,500 to 10,000. But it's the same number 58:00whatever it is. Nothing has changed.

Annette S.:

But I guess people have left here almost in the same numbers as they have arrived here.

Betty Abramson:

Well, I know what you mean when there's so many new faces that you don't know-

Annette S.:

There are indeed-

Betty Abramson:

And yet there seem to be so many Louisvillians who are natives like we are.

Annette S.:

But think back to-

Betty Abramson:

And who have been. You know.

Annette S.:

- how many natives you associate with. I think about your very closest friends, and several of them are.

Betty Abramson:

Really, so many many of them are. Yes they are.

Annette S.:

See, I'm not really ... having worked here in this transient society, at the Jewish Community Center, I find that sometimes I'm the only native around. And I can't remember yesterday, and I don't remember what I want to do 10 minutes from now, but I do remember back to the old days.

Betty Abramson:

Well, you know it's not ... I don't feel like they're old days, really. But I do 59:00have several friends, and you'll look around and you'll say, yes, you know we're all native Louisvillians, and then we'll say to this one, "But you won't remember you weren't born here." And she said, "But I've been married and have lived here for 42 years."

Annette S.:

But you know I have a friend who used to use the expression, she has passed away now, Pauline Dobson, whose husband for many years was the director of the Jewish Vocational Service here. But she used to say, she was here for over 40 years, but if you can't use your maiden name in Louisville you're considered a newcomer. And it's really true that she had been here well over 40 years, but I considered her a newcomer. And her parents weren't married here, and she wasn't married here-

Betty Abramson:

Well how many times, I mean except for the fact that you are exposed to so many people, I know that I have to sometimes identify myself by my maiden name-

Annette S.:

Oh, no question about it.

Betty Abramson:

You know.

Annette S.:

No question about it. In fact, it amazes me that I've lived long enough to do 60:00what I swore I would never do. When I would meet a child when I was a little girl, and I would tell my parents I met so and so, like meeting Betty Well, and my mother would say, "What's her mother's name?"

Annette S.:

Well, first of all, in my day, you never heard the first name of your friend's mothers-

Betty Abramson:

That's true.

Annette S.:

They were Mrs. Somebody.

Betty Abramson:

That's right.

Annette S.:

And I certainly didn't know her maiden name. Now I can tell you your mothers maiden name was Meyers-

Betty Abramson:

Absolutely.

Annette S.:

- but I didn't know it as a child. But now I know the family and I can associate it. And that's how I go back. I amaze myself because my parents used to do this and it sounded like writing history books.

Betty Abramson:

But it's important.

Annette S.:

And now, I find myself saying, "Well, you know her, her mother was a Meyers."

Betty Abramson:

Well, but see this is exactly what we're doing this project for. We want to trace our heritage back. Not only to the ones who were born here, whose parents were born here, but where they came. And as long as we can do it and put it on tape, maybe our children won't want to know now, but maybe in 20 or 30 years 61:00they'll want to know where the people from Louisville came. From where they came. Because we have put this off too long.

Annette S.:

Yes. Unfortunately. I want now to know some of the things that I never bothered to know when my parents were living. And it really is too bad, because I lost the opportunity to know about their families and about their origins.

Betty Abramson:

Well this is like roots, and we want to find our roots. And so maybe 40 years from now somebody will play one of these tapes and say, "Oh, that's very interesting. Those are my roots."

Annette S.:

Exactly. And we do have that in common, particularly in Louisville.

Betty Abramson:

Yes.

Annette S.:

I think Louisville is unique, because we can ... When we developed this archives room, the room in which we're working now, it was because of our early early 62:00roots. That this is the third oldest continuously operating Jewish Community Center in the country.

Betty Abramson:

That I did not know either.

Annette S.:

Yes. This center was incorporated 101 years ago. Only the 92nd Street Y in New York and the Pittsburgh Y predated us. Now we started ... We once organized in 1868, but it did ... I'm talking about continuous operation.

Betty Abramson:

Tell me ... you said it was once organized. Do you know offhand the people who started?

Annette S.:

We have that information.

Betty Abramson:

You do?

Annette S.:

I don't know it. I don't have it here. I know that I. W. Bernheim was one of them.

Betty Abramson:

Yes, I think I've heard that.

Annette S.:

This was all included in Herman Landow's book "Out of Louisville". And it lists the men who met at the old Adath Israel, which was at that time Adas, A-D-A-S 63:00Israel temple -

Betty Abramson:

Was it really?

Annette S.:

- and they discussed the need for a YMHA which was at that time patterned after the YWCA or the YMCA.

Betty Abramson:

You were telling me about going to scouts at the old HA?

Annette S.:

Yes. We had arts and crafts classes. We had dramatics classes. And we had-

Betty Abramson:

Did you ever take gym?

Annette S.:

Oh yes. Oh yes. But I was the biggest failure-

Betty Abramson:

Oh no, not any klutzier than me.

Annette S.:

Oh, come on.

Betty Abramson:

You remember the handsome, wonderful, gym director?

Annette S.:

I remember Harry Cohen.

Betty Abramson:

That's the one I mean.

Annette S.:

Oh, of course I do. Harry Cohen was at the old YMHA when I first went there.

Betty Abramson:

I wondered if he still was.

Annette S.:

Yeah. I think it's interesting when we talk about the Harry Cohen days and the gym, I have to tell you that we were so farsighted that we had that wonderful 64:00track at the old building. And when we were building and consulting with architects from all over the country for this building which we began occupying in 1955 ... So I guess we started our studies in 1952, because I think we started building in 1953. And there was consideration of building a track in this present gym, we were told that tracks are passe.

Betty Abramson:

Oh, really?

Annette S.:

That nobody builds tracks now.

Betty Abramson:

And is it you who did all-

Annette S.:

Oh is it ever. It is such a popular thing. But I think it's interesting, it probably cost us as much to build this track now as it cost to build this whole building.

Betty Abramson:

Really?

Annette S.:

We built, in 1955, we built and furnished this building for $1,250,000. And as you know this most recent refurbishment that we did in 1988 when we dedicated and rededicated in 1988 cost us $5 million.

Betty Abramson:

Isn't that something.

Annette S.:

And that was with this big, sturdy building already in place. This was just refurbishment. So if we had really acted on our leader's impulses, as we did in many cases ... Which reminds me of something else. And again, I digress-

Betty Abramson:

Well, I want you to. I want to know, as you're digressing, the various titles you've held since you were employed as USO Director.

Annette S.:

Okay. When I went to work for the USO initially I was there as a secretary. Then I became the Program Director. And then in later years our director became an area man, and I became the Local Director, because they traveled areas, and I became the Local Director of the armed services program. And then when USO went out of existence in 1964, I became the ... a half time Armed Services Director 66:00for the center and half time I worked for what was then the Bureau of Jewish Education, as Administrative Assistant.

Annette S.:

And then when the job, what we now call Adult and Cultural Arts, it was Adult Activities at that time, when director became available I became the Adult Activities Director. And then it's been maybe just about five years that I've been the Membership Director.

Betty Abramson:

That is your title now?

Annette S.:

That is my present title.

Betty Abramson:

Does David still have anything to do with, your husband, with the Center?

Annette S.:

David is very much interested in being active. David is what he calls semi retired. And semi retired means that he's retired and I'm not. So he calls himself semi retired. But he is a very willing volunteer for our center. He's very much interested in the phys-ed aspect, and in health and phys-ed. That's 67:00his undergraduate degree.

Betty Abramson:

Oh really?

Annette S.:

So he's very much interested, and is a very willing volunteer.

Betty Abramson:

Tell me one other thing-

Annette S.:

A husband's good slave labor.

Betty Abramson:

Well, that's great. [inaudible 01:07:15]

Annette S.:

Yes.

Betty Abramson:

Tell me, have any of the other members of your family ever worked at either the YMHA or the center? Is there anyone else in your family?

Annette S.:

There is someone else, as a matter of fact.

Betty Abramson:

And who would that be?

Annette S.:

Who started as a high school girl, and thank you for asking, as a-

Betty Abramson:

I happen to love her very much.

Annette S.:

As a counselor ... I appreciate that. I do too. My niece Jay, then Heinerfeld, now Sparber, started as a high school girl, as first a junior counselor and then a counselor at what was then Camp Rickery, what is now Camp Faverine. And Jay, like her auntie, worked her way up very slowly. And many years later after high 68:00school and after college, came back to work here as the Camp Director. Actually she wasn't Camp Director originally. She was a Unit Director, and then ultimately as Camp Director. And then as Director of the family program, and finally as the Director of the children's department. And she worked here until two years ago. I say sorrowfully that she chose to leave here a couple of years ago. But she's also very willing slave labor.

Betty Abramson:

Is Jay outgoing in any way?

Annette S.:

Oh, you could say that. Jay has many of her mother's characteristics, and again, I appreciate your asking, because my sister Lorraine having been gone it'll be 25 years this June, may have been forgotten and she shouldn't be. Because Lorraine was extremely outgoing. Jay has that in common with her mother. What 69:00she did not learn from her mother was her mother's softness and gentility. Jay is not soft and gentle.

Betty Abramson:

She can be-

Annette S.:

She is good. Jay is very good, she really is. But she's not soft spoken, and she's not sweet and gentle. But she is a good, kind, caring person.

Betty Abramson:

But she has so many attributes that are strictly Jay. No one else can do them but Jay.

Annette S.:

Let me tell you, this is for the record, one of her attributes is she will never dance with your son. Did you know that? And do you know the reason she won't dance with your son?

Betty Abramson:

She told me.

Annette S.:

Because Leslie Abramson never asked her to dance at a bar mitzvah party. And when they were older and Leslie came over and asked her to dance and she said, "No, you didn't dance with me when I needed you, and you're not going to dance with me now."

Betty Abramson:

It has not interfered with their friendship one bit.

Annette S.:

Oh, it's a romance. It's a beautiful romance. He really is one of her best girlfriends.

Betty Abramson:

Oh don't say that.

Annette S.:

Oh, she loves him like a girlfriend.

Betty Abramson:

No, they are really, truly wonderful friends. And you mentioned something and I'd like to put this in about Jay. I went to Israel and I was down in Be'er Sheva to visit Cantor and Sarah Pernig. And I had seen them for about 10 minutes the year before, and this time I was determined I was going to spend more time with them, and I went there to take them to lunch. They had me. And I said, "I'll only come if Janice will be there." And she was. And my son had been very unhappy because I hadn't taken any pictures of Cantor and Sarah. So I took pictures for him. And when I talked to Janice and she wants to know everything about Louisville, she said, "I know that, I know that I know that." And I said, 71:00"How do you know?" And she said, "Jay wrote me, Jay wrote me, Jay wrote me."

Annette S.:

Yes. They have a beautiful friendship that has continued over the years. The Pernigs were very good to Jay when my sister Lorraine passed away. Their home was really her haven.

Betty Abramson:

Well, they were just good people. And I know we sound like we're babbling, and we're really not. We're doing Louisville talk.

Annette S.:

Well, it's important that the Pernig's get mentioned, and I'm pleased that you were able to weave them in, because they were an integral part of-

Betty Abramson:

When I got congratulated for my son's bar mitzvah, I said, "The congratulations really go to Cantor." I mean, they're truly wonderful people, and I think everybody loves them so dearly.

Betty Abramson:

And what congregation do you and David belong to?

Annette S.:

I belong to Adath Jeshurun. We have belonged since we've been married. My sister Lorraine and her family joined when they married. And as I said earlier, my 72:00parents joined Adath Jeshurun the day after Rabbi Gidleman came.

Betty Abramson:

And who married you and David?

Annette S.:

Rabbi Gidleman married David and me.

Betty Abramson:

Rabbi Gidleman married Shelly and me also. He was ...

Annette S.:

In fact, I told Rabbi Kling, and it's true, Rabbi Kling, a blessed memory. It's hard to get accustomed to saying that, his death having been only so recent. It's just a month ago. But I told him that he really let me down only one time in all the time I knew him, because I intended to hate him because he replaced Rabbi Gidleman. And Rabbi Kling made it impossible to hate him. And I was such a fan of his, because he was such an unusual gentleman. And belonging to Adath Jeshurun during the time that he was the rabbi is a privilege that I don't think any of us can take for granted.

Betty Abramson:

Well, I mean you know and it's been your congregation for a long time, so that's 73:00what you know.

Annette S.:

Yes. These are my people and this is my place. I do want to tell you, Betty, because again I ... You were one of the "Highlands" girls, and I wasn't.

Betty Abramson:

I didn't get that until fifth grade.

Annette S.:

Well, I was much older than that. But I have to tell you that one of the sad things in my life when I think back to the old days and the old neighborhood ... I lived in a wonderful neighborhood where [Riva Jean Shaneburg 01:13:34], who was my dearest friend who died in childbirth-

Betty Abramson:

I remember it very very well-

Annette S.:

Probably now almost 50 years ago-

Betty Abramson:

No no, it's not.

Annette S.:

45 years ago.

Betty Abramson:

No no, not that, because I was pregnant with Susan when she was pregnant. And Evelyn Simon was pregnant with Freddy-

Annette S.:

Really?

Betty Abramson:

- and we were all expecting within about three months of each other.

Annette S.:

So how long is that? Less than-

Betty Abramson:

About 40 years.

Annette S.:

Well, Riva Jean and I were very very dear friends, and Riva Jean named us the 74:002nd Street Gang, because they all lived on 2nd Street. Now, I didn't quite make it, I was half a block from 2nd Street.

Betty Abramson:

Oh, sure, Riva Jean [crosstalk 01:14:12] apartment.

Annette S.:

Right. She lived in the Wyoming Apartments on 2nd and Gallbard. And at one time, Beverly Greenberg lived there, and Elaine Brill, and Shirley Wells. All of these girls that lived there. But I was allowed to be ... Even the Goldens, Francis and Doris Golden who lived on 1st and Gallbard were allowed to be a part of the 2nd Street Gang. But the-

Betty Abramson:

There were some boys that lived there too.

Annette S.:

Oh, there certainly were. Even some boys who lived on 3rd Street, like Boody Rosenberg-

Betty Abramson:

I could tell you about Boody. He lived in those apartments you're talking about-

Annette S.:

The Sherman Apartments he lived in-

Betty Abramson:

Because I remember when his father was in politics and they used their balcony for someone making a speech that was running for office.

Annette S.:

Yeah, his father was the garbage man, we used to call him. [crosstalk 01:15:04] 75:00He was in charge of the sanitation department-

Betty Abramson:

Sanitation, of course.

Annette S.:

But we used to tell Boody, kind children that we were, that his father was the garbage man. But anyway, Riva Jean named this group the 2nd Street Gang, and let's say some of us who lived half a block off 2nd Street were allowed. But the sad part of my life was I never lived on Madison Street. And I always-

Betty Abramson:

Why is that sad?

Annette S.:

Oh, we thought that was paradise, because everybody who lived on Madison Street and on Preston Street, but mostly Madison Street got to work at Waterman's. And I never worked at Waterman's, and that really, I guess, has marked me for life. I might've been a totally different person if I had ever worked at Waterman's. Evelyn Waterman Simon's father-

Betty Abramson:

Oh, absolutely.

Annette S.:

Gave jobs to every young Jewish kid.

Betty Abramson:

He definitely did. Yes, I know.

Annette S.:

But I never worked there. [crosstalk 01:16:01]

Betty Abramson:

I think I know why, because you were too young.

Annette S.:

Maybe, but I never lived on the right street. I think you had to live on Madison Street where Mrs. [Stolzman 01:16:09] lived.

Betty Abramson:

Well, my great grandmother lived close by. I'm not sure.

Annette S.:

Well, maybe I would've qualified. I had no family who lived there, and this was really a very sad thing in my life. I felt very cheated because they knew things ... And there was another place that if you didn't work at Waterman's, Waterman's was the first choice, but it helped if you had ever worked at Ben Klein's. Ben Klein had a grocery store on Preston and Jefferson. And if you couldn't work at Waterman's, then it was nice if you got to work at Ben Klein's. But somehow you had to live in that area, and we never lived in that area.

Betty Abramson:

I didn't know that. I've always-

Annette S.:

See, you lived in the Highlands.

Betty Abramson:

No, I lived on 1st Street across from Alley Hall when they were building it.

Annette S.:

Well, I know that one time, I went on a Saturday afternoon, don't ask me how this could possibly have happened, but Francis Goldman and I went all the way on 77:00the streetcar to Alta to ... Arthur Isaacs lived on Alta. And we went all the way there, and there was a place ... there was a restaurant someplace on Bardstown Road. Some place near Bonnycastle, it was called The Her Shop.

Betty Abramson:

The Her Shop?

Annette S.:

The Her Shop-

Betty Abramson:

I don't remember that.

Annette S.:

Is what it was called. And Babette, she was then Babette Frank, she is now Babs Pearlstein, she had her birthday party there.

Betty Abramson:

[inaudible 01:17:34] across from me.

Annette S.:

Well, she had her birthday party there. And we went to her birthday party at this restaurant on Bardstown or wherever it was, and then we found our way all the way to Alta. And that was really going way up in the Highlands at that time. And we thought that we really had arrived.

Betty Abramson:

And how old were you? 12 maybe?

Annette S.:

Probably. Probably.

Betty Abramson:

We used to go, if you remember, we used to go to lunch and we could play bridge.

Annette S.:

Oh sure, lunch and bridge were the fun things. Canary Cottage was downtown at 78:00that time. And we used to go to lunch and bridge at Canary Cottage. In fact, I remember my 13th birthday party was a lunch and bridge. And it turned out, I mean, who had air conditioning at that time? And it happened that that was probably the only warm November ... Well there was one other warm November. But that was one of the few warm Novembers in Louisville's history, and we had to play bridge outside because it was too hot to play inside.

Annette S.:

But I remember another warm November was my 16th birthday, and I got a leopard coat for my 16th birthday and had to wait way into December to wear it because it never got cold enough to wear that leopard coat. Which by the way I still own.

Betty Abramson:

I have a ... I have a beaver coat that was given to me by my grandmother and my aunt Yedda and my uncle Lee when I graduated from U of L.

Annette S.:

Oh dear. Older lady.

Betty Abramson:

I graduated from U of L midterm as I did everything else midterm-

Annette S.:

So did I-

Betty Abramson:

And I got to have my picture taken, and I still have the beaver coat. And whenever it was real cold or the heat went off in our house, I would put on my beaver coat. And I'd meet Shelly at the door, and he'd say, "Uh-oh, what's wrong?" Then he said, "There's got to be something magic about it." I said, "It's because it's so warm and so soft." And it was freezing one day, he was cold, and I said, "Let me put this around you for a nap." And he said, "No wonder this is the softest thing I've ever felt." So you've got your coat and I've got mine.

Annette S.:

Well, I had my coat remodeled when I was 56. It was its 40th birthday, and as I told you, I was a skinny little girl so I could not fit into the same coat. But I had leather inserted in that coat, and I still have my leopard coat.

Betty Abramson:

And you know leopard coats-

Annette S.:

But Jay's children, Jay's children won't let me wear it.

Betty Abramson:

Because you're not supposed to wear leather.

Annette S.:

They're afraid that I'll get shot because some conservationist will not know that this was before the days when leopards were an endangered species.

Betty Abramson:

I know, but you could say it's fake fur and just enjoy it for all your worth.

Annette S.:

It really is too bad not to get my money's worth out of it-

Betty Abramson:

Your money's worth-

Annette S.:

It probably cost my parents over $100 in those days.

Betty Abramson:

Probably a little bit more than that.

Betty Abramson:

Annette, really, this has been a fun, fun interview. I don't even feel like it's an interview, it's just a conversation back and forth. I want to thank you very, very much again for all that you've given us on tape. Is there anything else that you can think of that you want to say?

Annette S.:

I just want to say thank you to you, Betty. I think that it's a marvelous project that you people have undertaken. And I feel so strongly, certainly not 81:00about my memoirs, which haven't made any great contribution-

Betty Abramson:

Yes they have. They're Louisville memories.

Annette S.:

But I think it's important that we preserve Louisville Jewry in every possible way.

Betty Abramson:

Well, Betty Browner said to me last year, this was her idea and what did I think about it? And the minute she said ... I said, "Oh, that is the greatest. The very greatest." And all of us are having so much fun, and learning so much about the Louisville we thought we knew everything about.

Annette S.:

I can't wait to listen to the tapes myself. But I have to tell you that generations and generations of Louisville Jewry will be very grateful to you, to Betty, to all of you people. I know that it's an imposition on your time-

Betty Abramson:

Oh, no.

Annette S.:

And you must get so tired of hearing this-

Betty Abramson:

Oh no no no-

Annette S.:

But thank you ever so much for having included me-

Betty Abramson:

Each person adds something else. And you added, among many things, how your 82:00uncle got to Louisville. I've never heard. And what was-

Annette S.:

United HIAS.

Betty Abramson:

HIAS.

Annette S.:

Hebrew Immigration Aid Society.

Betty Abramson:

See, this is something I never heard.

Annette S.:

I think it still exists, but it may have another name now. But I don't think so. I think HIAS still exists in some form.

Betty Abramson:

Because other people have come here for different reasons that I've interviewed. Some of them because they had come from the same area or whatever. They knew somebody who could give them a job. But this is just another facet-

Annette S.:

A lot of these people, when they came to this country, went to HIAS in New York, and were directed to what was called the Jewish Educational Alliance, which was on Clinton and Grand on the West Side in New York-

Betty Abramson:

In New York.

Annette S.:

And they helped these people. You know, we think we're doing something new and innovative. We have a acculturation program. They in their own bumbling way had-

Betty Abramson:

It wasn't bumbling, look what they have done-

Annette S.:

It certainly wasn't. But people learned English there. By the way, we had English classes here. That was one of our first classes at the YMHA when it came in to being, was teaching English to immigrants.

Betty Abramson:

Oh was it?

Annette S.:

We have a picture here on the wall of that also. I know I'm winding up again-

Betty Abramson:

No, you're not. I mean, you're just adding to a great interview. And you're giving more meaning to it.

Annette S.:

Well, this agency integrated these children. It's what we would later think of as settlement houses. But it was a Jewish settlement house, and they directed these young people towards jobs, towards preparing themselves for jobs. Being acculturated to the extent that they could. And learning the English language. And as I say, ours was patterned, here in Louisville, our YMHA English classes, 84:00of which there are pictures here on the wall, originated as a result of these classes in New York.

Betty Abramson:

That's great. And thank you again so much.

Annette S.:

Thank you, Betty. And I [crosstalk 01:24:12]-

Betty Abramson:

Pleasure.