Interview with Carl Hines, September 21, 1999

Tracy K'Meyer: This is an interview with Carl Hines by Tracy K'Meyer conducted on Tuesday September 21, 1999. [Tape paused] Okay, again just for the record could you tell me when and where you born?

Carl Hines: I was born right here in Louisville.

TK: In Louisville, okay. 19. . . .?

CH: 1931. 3/23/31.

TK: And how long had your family been in Louisville?

CH: As far as I know, my mother, I know, was born here and all of her brothers and sisters. I'm not sure that my grandparents or my maternal grandparents were born here, but they had lived here most of their life.

TK: What were your parents' names?

CH: My parents?

TK: Yeah.

CH: Fred and Ruth Hines, but my father's not from Louisville.

TK: When did he get here?

CH: He never lived here. Well, he was here just a short time, well, right after I was born I guess, but he's from Champagne, Illinois, that's where they met at the University of Illinois.

TK: Oh, your mother went to school there?

CH: Yeah.

TK: And they met there? They both went to school there?

CH: Yeah.

TK: Where about in Louisville did you live growing up?

CH: West End, primarily. West End, I've only lived in the West End, I've never lived anywhere else. Of course, the West End had a different definition then, then what it has now. When I was growing up, we considered the West End from Twenty-Eighth Street west. Now the media has made the West End from about First Street west and we never considered that, we used to consider that downtown or uptown.

TK: So the West End would be Twenty-Eighth Street to the river?

CH: Yeah, but I mean I was born in what would now be considered Russell, which was West Chestnut Street. 'Course we lived in several places in the Russell area before moving to the West End.

TK: Could you just tell me what schools that you went to here in town?

CH: Well, I went to Western and Virginia Avenue Elementary School. I went to Madison Junior High School and I graduated from Central High School.

TK: Was Madison the only junior high for blacks at that time?

CH: No, there was another high school in Smoketown, what we called the East End then, which was Jackson Junior High School.

TK: Because almost everybody that I've interviewed mentioned going to Madison so I was starting to . . .

CH: Yeah, you either went to Madison or Jackson and we all merged at Central.

TK: Into Central right. Now you went to, I have from a newspaper clipping, that you went to Illinois for college?

CH: Yeah, I went there for a while.

TK: Why did you go there?

CH: I went there immediately after high school, but as I said, my mother and father both went there. Well, the main reason I went there really was because I had a grandmother living in Champagne and I could go live with my grandmother and go to school there as a state student. So due to financial situation at the time, that was a very prudent decision, so I went up to Champagne and went to school.

TK: And that would have been in late forties?

CH: '49, yeah, that was in September of '49.

TK: And then you came down to Louisville, University of Louisville at some point?

CH: [Laughter] Well, that's sort of a long story. I came back home in 1950 and I started to school at the Indiana University extension in, I guess Jeff, Jeffersonville at that time and then the Korean War broke out, so I went into the service at the end or the very beginning of 1951, end of 1950.

TK: What kind of effect did that have on you do you think having been in the service?

CH: Oh, I don't know. It's hard to say. I was in the Air Force and I was in 5:00Korea for about a year, I guess, almost a year. We had a different what they call tour of duty because I was, then you still had prop driven planes, and I was what they referred to as a gunner on a B-26, which is obsolete, of course, and our tour of duty was fifty-five missions, fifty-five combat missions and then we came back. Also I was in the service shortly after President [Harry] Truman had signed the executive order integrating the services so I didn't, based on that and the fact that I was in the Air Force, I didn't go through a 6:00lot, I guess, what would have been the type of segregation that had existed and continued to exist in some other branches of the service. I think the Air Force integrated much quicker and without as much fanfare as other branches of the service, so I didn't see a lot of the segregation that a lot of other guys saw. I saw the remnants of it as I went from one base to another where they had these old wooden barracks, for example, and no paved streets and what have you, which had been for the black soldiers as compared to the concrete brick barracks on the other side of the base for the white soldiers. Of course, when I went, all 7:00that had changed on the Air Force bases. They were using what used to be the black soldiers' barracks as sort of where the new guys came in, you know, depending on what you were in, so it was a little different. When I got out of the service, which was in the latter part of '53, I don't know, I guess I had always felt, I guess because of my family. My grandfather and grandmother sent their children to college back in the twenties so I guess some of that had 8:00rubbed off on me. So I was, I guess, always determined I was going to college, you know, it was sort of a known like it was with my kids, you know. So when I got out, I already knew that I was going back to college so I went back to college and I think initially I started back at U of L.

TK: Because it would have been integrated by then?

CH: Yeah, this was in '5 . . . I guess when I started back. I think I started back until about '55 and then I got a job working for the government as a 9:00cartographer, making maps at was what then was the Army Map Service.

TK: Was that here in Louisville?

CH: Yeah, right down the street. It later became the . . . what they call it . . . it eventually became the, I think over by the Corps of Engineers.

TK: The geological survey?

CH: No, it was called the, what was it called . . . I can't remember. They eventually moved up to Ninth and Broadway, but anyway I stayed there for a while, then I went back to Illinois, and of course, I had a different perspective at that time. I had a car, I was a veteran and I was going on the G.I. Bill and I just . . . I felt a little out of place, I guess, so I decided 10:00that this wasn't my type of thing. You know I was, I guess, twenty-two, you know, and these kids, to me you know, I had been in the service. So then I came back and went back to U of L and I finally graduated from U of L and then I went to law school.

TK: What was U of L like for black students at that time?

CH: I had no problems, you know I mean, like I said when I first graduated from high school at that time you weren't admitted, this was in '49, you couldn't go to U of L. They still had Louisville Municipal College and I went out there and enrolled because I came out in the middle of the year, we still had mid-year classes then. See, my class was 1948 and a half. So I had already been accepted 11:00at Illinois, but my mother didn't want me just laying around for five months, so I went and enrolled at Municipal. And the day I enrolled of that evening I got a call from the man who managed the paper station for the Courier-Journal and the Times. I had been a paperboy since I was in junior high school and he called me and said he had a paper route that I could have if I wanted it. Well, money said I needed to take it so I went on and took it and I never went back.

TK: To Municipal?

CH: To Municipal, although on my college transcript, it still shows Louisville 12:00Municipal College and when they have something, I still get mail!

TK: Really?

CH: Yeah, it's the first thing on my college transcript, Louisville Municipal College, and when they have an alumni thing or whatever they'll send me a letter, you know, which is kind of funny since I only went there one day. Anyway, I went on and took the paper route because I said I can earn some money, buy some clothes, what have you, what have you, because we were not in the best financial condition at that time. We were living in the project over in Beecher Terrace. Of course, the projects were a lot different then from what they eventually turned out to be and are now. So I went on over there, I mean went on took the paper route and then went on to school in September.

TK: So you were at Illinois and then the service and then . . .

CH: Back to Illinois and then U of L, yeah.

TK: And then did you go straight into law school when you finished under grad?

CH: No. How did that happen? Yeah, I did initially and then I got married and so what happened, then, you had, of course, the three years and then you go into law school and while I was in law school, I got married and things came about and I dropped out of law school. Then I decided to go back, but I said this time I'm going back and make sure I get a degree before I try law school again, so which I did, but then I went back to law school and I was at law school. In the 14:00meantime I had gone to work for Mammoth Insurance Company and I became district manager at Mammoth and that's when I first got into any type of political situations. I was approached when they had the, they called it the District Alliance Subcommittee back in, I guess, '64, somewhere along there. It was a District Alliance Subcommittee and I became a member. If I remember, I think Woodford Porter asked me to serve on that committee.

TK: What did that committee do?

CH: Well, they were trying to . . . there was one of the attempts to merge the city and county schools.

TK: Oh that early, okay.

CH: Yeah it was called the District Alliance Subcommittee and we really thought that we had everything worked out, which would have avoided a lot of problems 15:00down the [unintelligible], but there was some folks in the community, who I'd rather not call their names, but who threw monkey wrench into the whole thing. Under no circumstances did they want . . . at that time, I guess, you might say the county system was still like a little brother to the city system. At one time, you could teach in the county system without having a degree.

TK: Wow!

CH: You know you could go three years and get a teacher's certificate some kind of way. I know some teachers that taught out there and they didn't have degrees back then. They were sort of like the little brother to the big city system and that was before the mass migration to the county started and then they started having double sessions out there and all that stuff. They were having to build schools so fast because of the folks running out there and after they passed the 16:00housing laws, that's what started it.

TK: Oh really?

CH: Yeah.

TK: Oh, I didn't know that!

CH: That's what started it, when black started moving into the West End and into the northern part of the West End, mostly I'd say north of Greenwood to a large extent and that area from . . . oh, it was a lot of areas because then you just had an isolated area, a pocket of blacks in the West End and they were all mostly in the south. And then you had the area called Little Africa, which was terrible, you know, it was no streets, no running water, outdoor toilets and all that stuff.

TK: About where was that, because I've heard the name?

CH: That's where the new Park DuValle development is taking place now. That's where they tore all that down to build the projects over there and they tore down one mess and created another one when they put up Park DuValle and Cotter homes and the other project all over there. They put it all over there together like some idiots, but anyway . . . where was I?

TK: You were talking about this committee, this 1964 committee.

CH: Oh yeah, the District Alliance Sub-committee. What they were trying to do was to come up with a plan for merging the city and county schools, which it was a . . . we thought, a lot of people thought, I think the powers to be thought, that they had a plan that would work. It was sort of like a pie-shaped district, 18:00is the way they were going to do it, you know like a . . .

TK: Wedges?

CH: Yeah. But anyway at the last minute it failed.

TK: What did you see, you were on this committee, so what did you see as the benefits of merging the two systems at that time?

CH: Well, it was obvious! I mean the same benefits that merger has brought about from a standpoint of financing, from the standpoint of integration or desegregation, whichever you want to say because they're two different things, that was the main thing. I think a lot of people who had some foresight saw what was coming down the line from the standpoint of the tax base as far as city school system was concerned. It was going to eventually deteriorate because not only were people moving to the county, businesses and offices and construction 19:00and so forth, they were all moving out to the county. And there was a period which eventually brought about while I was a member of the school board, that we had just decided we were just going to quit; we were just going to close up.

TK: The city school board?

CH: City school board was just going to close up because the tax base had gotten so bad. We had gone to the legislature to get some help, 'course it wasn't forthcoming. So we said, well, if something doesn't happen, we just close up and that way they'd have to take us!

TK: And force it, yeah.

CH: And that was well on its way, but it just so happens that there had been a suit filed and then the ruling came down on the suit prior to our actually doing that, but it was imminent, very close! We had discussed it several times and had 20:00reached the conclusion that hey, this is what we're going to have to do, but that was avoided, but of course, the eventual desegregation and integration of the system and busing, which all took place simultaneously, created some very horrendous problems.

TK: Actually that was one of the issues I was going to ask you about. I think I had three general categories and that was one of them, but before we get there I want to ask a little bit of background. Before 1964, had you been involved politically at all?

CH: No, no. Politics had never, even non-partisan politics, had never really entered my mind. I was district manager for the local black insurance company, 21:00which was the largest black business in the state.

TK: Mammoth?

CH: Mammoth Life and Accident Insurance Company.

TK: I'm going to come back and ask you about that, too.

CH: I was involved in the normal things that a home office manager would be involved in, civic and you know, you represent the company at this on this board and what have you, you know, this type of stuff. At one point in time, I guess this must have been in the early, middle sixties, I was approached by Georgia Davis Powers, Senator Powers, about accepting an appointment in the legislative district which I eventually ended up representing through election, because the 22:00then representative . . . how was that? Somebody got elected to Congress and the then representative of the district, which was Norbert Blume, who I eventually defeated, was going to run for mayor or something, he was going into some other office and they were looking for somebody in the district to replace him, but my 23:00superiors at the company I worked for, which was Mammoth, said no. I mean it would have required, you know, being away during the legislative session and what have you and what have you, and at the time going to Frankfort for committee meetings and so forth, regular activities of the legislature and they said no. So eventually I think . . . I forget how it happened. Eventually Georgia ran. I think what happened is that . . . no, I think Norb was going to run for the Senate, anyway I forget how it all played out, eventually Georgia decided to run herself. At that time she was the LD chairman I think.

TK: Okay, yeah, legislative district chairman.

CH: Yeah and she eventually ran herself and of course the rest is history.

TK: Right, yeah, yeah.

CH: Then later in 1970, of course, then I went on the school board in 1968.

TK: Could you tell me about that election?

CH: Well, it wasn't really an election! Woodford Porter was serving on the school board and Neville Tucker, and initially, this is kind of funny, initially we had a problem getting some one on the school board for years because we would always have one, I mean two or three blacks running for that school board seat. And what would happen is they'd split the vote and lose. So finally some of the powers to be in the black community decided that we would have a process of 25:00elimination, and Woodford was the first to be elected. And then he served two terms and then when he was getting ready to come off, we decided to have another in-house election, which was held at the Chestnut Street YMCA. Never have been involved in any type of political process, I was very naïve about it and I was asked, Woodford approached me, somebody approached me about running because I had been on the District Alliance Committee and what have you and showed an interest in education and some other areas, you know committees and so forth. So I said okay, I'll run. So we had a little mock, wasn't a mock election, it was a process of elimination.

TK: It's like a primary.

CH: Yeah it was a primary, I guess you could call it that. I ran against Neville 26:00Tucker, who ultimately became Police Court judge and had it not been for some other factors, could probably have been mayor, but nevertheless. So I went to the meeting. I had a guy on my staff who was quite articulate who agreed to nominate me. Well, it was kind of cut and dry that it was going to be me and Neville. 'Course, I hadn't made any calls or talked to anybody except, you know, just close friends and family what have you, you know I don't know anything about lining up votes and so forth of the people that were going to be at the meeting! So obviously I lost! That was my first lesson in political process because Neville he was involved; he was LD chairman, he was involved in 27:00politics, had been for a long time and he had his people!

TK: And his father had been, too?

CH: Yeah, yeah and he had all his people. He had the votes there! You know, when he walked in, he probably knew that he had the election won. This guy made a nice speech, because, like I say, he was very articulate, but anyway I lost and learnt. So Neville went on the school board and Neville and I had been friends for years, we had been Boy Scouts together so we grew up together. But anyway Neville served and then in 19, the middle of 1968 . . . I can't think of the lady's name . . .

TK: Mrs. Tate?

CH: Yeah, Mrs. Tate.

TK: Yeah, I don't know her first name.

CH: Yeah, Mrs. Tate, she decided to resign. You'll have to excuse me, my sinus and eyes are running.

TK: Oh, I know, I just found out today that I've got allergies.

CH: The whole bit, I've got them all, you know. Decided to resign, so Woodford Porter came to me and asked me if I would accept, if I could get the appointment, in fact he said you can get the appointment, will you accept it? And after consultation and so forth family and what have you, I agreed to accept the appointment.

TK: Those are voluntary positions, right?

CH: Well, I think at that time we got something like $10 for . . .

TK: But do you keep your regular job?

CH: Oh yeah, yeah, you better! [Laughter]

TK: Yeah, that's what I was trying to figure. In one of the newspaper articles about this I read that there was, someone had suggested another candidate somebody named Calloway, but then you got it. Do you know anything about that or who that was or why people supported you over him or anything like that, do you remember back that far?

CH: I don't remember who that would have been, Calloway. I don't remember that.

TK: It was just two sentences, unfortunately, in a newspaper article; it didn't really say much about it.

CH: Calloway, I don't know who that could have been. But anyway I was assured. Woodford told me if you want it you can get it and there might have been some other names mentioned, but I don't remember Calloway in any other context, you know, as far as public office or politics . . .

TK: Who this person was, yeah.

CH: Anyway, I got the appointment. Of course, one of the conditions was that I would run in the next election, which was coming up the following year. So I agreed and the same time John Bell was running.

TK: Is that Dr. Bell?

CH: Dr. Bell.

TK: Geneva Bell's husband?

CH: No, no.

TK: No, different Bell, okay.

CH: They're both physicians, but this Dr. Bell is white and he's a psychiatrist and . . .

END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A

START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B

TK: Okay so, Dr. Bell?

CH: Yeah, his wife's name is Nancy, but anyway, so we ran as a team!

TK: Oh really?

CH: In the election we were, I guess, what they called the liberal team or something because we shared a lot of views, had a lot of things in common philosophically and politically as well. So we won handily and that was the first term and we were, I guess, sort of instrumental in bringing Newman Walker here. He was the superintendent -- of controversy who brought in some new 31:00approaches, what some people called the radical approaches to the educational process, especially for an inner city school system and we brought Newman in. He came from Paducah and he was a brilliant man. There's a book, I don't know whether you are aware of it, there's a book written by one of the staff, I have it at home, that really covers that whole Newman Walker era.

TK: Oh really?

CH: Yeah and I can't think of the guy's name and there's nobody home I could call to get it, but it just came out about six months ago, and several of us who had served as both staff and board and the attorney for the school at that time 32:00we had a little reunion up at . . . what's the name of the restaurant in the Galt House?

TK: The Flag . . .

CH: No, not the Galt House, in the Center for the Arts. Bristol! Okay, we had a little reunion at the Bristol out on Bardstown Road about four or five months ago, I guess, and we all received a copy of the book and we sort of kind of rehashed some of the old days. Of course, we were all mentioned the book; John and I are mentioned in there on a number of occasions, but it completely covers the Newman Walker era.

TK: Wow, I'll have to take a look at that!

CH: If you give me a call, I can give you the name of it. I don't know where it's available. In fact, after we had that meeting, I got a letter from Newman, who is still out in California, he's retired now, which was just a little note 33:00about the time, the good old days and what have you and so forth. But anyway John and I, the board brought Newman here and it changed the whole concept of the educational process because Newman, he was a young man. Well, he's the same age I am. We were all young man, comparatively speaking. I would say that Newman was probably more communicative with his board that the old days where the superintendent more or less rubber-stamped the board. [Phone rings]

TK: I'll just pause this. [Tape stopped]

CH: It was altogether . . . did you turn it back on?

TK: Yeah, I just turned it back on.

CH: Altogether different type of situation with Newman. When I went on the school board, there were two separate systems.

TK: City and county.

CH: City and county. When I went on, Sam Noe was still the superintendent and of course, the board was more or less just a rubber stamp, you know, I mean they really didn't have any input. It was sort of a career, add to the resume type of thing, I served on the school board, you know. But as far as really having any input, he brought in recommendations and so forth and all in favor say yeah and that was the end of it, you know. Of course, over a period of time I think I was really a little thorn in the [unintelligible] for Mr. Noe because Newman, I mean not Newman but Woodford and Neville, I guess, had started it because there were, of course, a lot of things that were done that, as far as the black schools were 35:00concerned, it wasn't a case of separate and equal, which it never has been anywhere for that matter, and even more so and having gone to one of those separate but equal high schools, I knew what that was. So it started then and I think, after when John Bell and I went on the school board, I think that was all Mr. Noe could take, so he decided to resign, retire because we raising [unintelligible], I think! [Laughter] Caroline [unintelligible] came on right after that and the complexion of the board changed from the good old boys to people who were really on the board because they were interested in what was going on and trying to bring about some change in the status quo! And so Sam Noe 36:00decided, "I'm out of here," you know, and that's when we brought in Newman Walker.

TK: Newman Walker was a white guy or black guy?

CH: Yeah, he was white, he was white. There was a brief interval after Mr. Noe left. . or was that, yeah, that was after Sam Noe left where Milburn Maupin, black guy, was the interim superintendent, but there was never really any question that he would be elected to the superintendency for a number of reasons really, but anyway he served during the interim. We met Newman, I think the first time, in Atlantic City. There was a meeting that they still have every 37:00year, I forget the name of it now. It's primarily for staff, you know, superintendents, assistant superintendents and so forth. So we were up there doing some searching, you know, and we had a list of people to talk to and Newman was far and above the one we were interested in and he was interested in coming to Louisville. He wanted to try some of his theories and so forth that he had used at Paducah. He was offered the job and he accepted it and we accepted him. Of course, I would dare say that Newman probably had as expert group of 38:00staff people that he brought in that has ever been assembled. He had some brilliant people and they all were all in tuned to the large extent to his philosophy of how to bring about change in our inner city school district and this book gives you all of this.

TK: Yeah, I'm going to have to call you at, I'll call you at home about that, though. Right now, you said the book's at home?

CH: Yeah and if they don't have it . . .

TK: Hawley-Cooke could probably order it for me.

CH: Yeah, they could get it but I could let you borrow mine, but I've been reading it off and on. I've just about covered most of what I wanted to see. Go ahead.

TK: Well, could I ask you a question about when you were going on the school board the first time, you know when Woodford Porter asked you, why did you want to be on the school board?

CH: Well, I guess it was an interest in education, plus I had four children.

TK: How many, I'm sorry?

CH: Four in the school system and I knew that there were things that needed to be done in the school system and I thought that I could probably help bring about some changes, you know. Once again I was very naïve about the fact that politics runned everything, you know, even the school board to a large extent and even more so at that stage of the game in the middle sixties, late sixties. 40:00Had I not been as naïve as I was, I might have reconsidered, but you know I had ideas and okay, I can go on the school board, we can get some things changed; plus the fact that it was an opportunity for us to increase the number of blacks from one to two. The percentages of students had changed drastically at that point, you know, white flight to the county and so to make the percentages work better as far as representation on the board was concerned. Then that gave us two seats on the five member board. So those were some of the considerations.

TK: Now when you say that there were things that you wanted to see changed, what were some of the issues facing blacks in education at that point?

CH: Well, you know those as well as I do. I don't need to tell you! Just the 41:00same old things that existed then to a large extent exist now, you know!

TK: The schools were essentially still segregated, right? I mean there was token, but . . .

CH: Yeah, yeah, because at that time they were segregated! They hadn't done anything really to integrate to any extent. You still had primarily all black schools and there wasn't really any real integration in the schools until 1976, you know! So to use the old cliché, the black schools were still getting the neck of the chicken!

TK: I never heard that cliché before.

CH: As far as the . . . you know, it has less amount of meat on it, most people use it to make soup. [Laughter] You know it's not like a chicken leg, a thigh, or a breast, or what have you, it's just a little round thing that has very 42:00little meat on it! [Laughter] Maybe that's a black expression, I don't know, but I've heard it other places, neck of a chicken, you know.

But as far as facilities and materials, the school system was supposed to be integrated, but from the stand point of promotions of blacks into the home office, you know, all those kind of things need to be looked into, need to have some input on. And like I say up until that point until John and I got on the board, then I think Carol [unintelligible] came on next. I'm almost sure it was Caroline. Then nobody even questioned the fact that you had at Central High 43:00School, at that time you had a staff that was probably most highly qualified staff in the city, because most of those people had their fifteen hours plus, had their administrative certificates, you know, were qualified to move into these other positions and had just been there. Some of them had doctorates, you know, but they weren't going anywhere, they were in the classroom, you know, this kind of thing! So all of those things made a difference and were things that I thought about, you know.

TK: What were some of the major issues or changes that you think happened while you were on the board?

CH: Oh, I think a lot of things happened. I don't know whether I was directly 44:00responsible; I think I may have had some input. I had one guy, Mr. Saunders; no, it was Mr. Saunders . . . oh, what was his name? I saw in the paper where he died here; now he was one of the assistant superintendents under Sam Noe and he nicknamed me the conscience of the board.

TK: Oh yeah?

CH: Well, because things would come up and I would just refuse to vote on them, you know, I would just say, "I'm not going to vote. I'm not abstaining, I'm just not going to vote, maybe that's an abstention, you know, because it always end up three to two, you know, me and John, you know, when promotions would come up or something concerning where funds would go as opposed to one school or another. You know if it was a black school it [unintelligible], just certain 45:00things like that, materials, supplies, promotions, the whole bit, you know.

I think to some extent, you know a lot of times, presence can make a difference and I feel like my presence, and also the fact that they knew that I was going to speak up and out against things that I thought weren't right. I've never been a hell raiser, you know, get up and hoop and holler, play to the media and all that kind of stuff. Some people do it, that's their thing, you know, but I would let them know in no uncertain terms and if the media was there, so be it! That was just, I guess, different strokes for different folks, you know, and so I think that the fact that I was there, I think a lot of things probably never 46:00came up that may have, recommendations that may have been made, probably some of them were done anyway! You know, in any bureaucracy, you always have that the bureaucrats can get around the thorns and policy makers and so forth, you know, but still they can only go so far and I think probably some things were never brought to the board because they knew that I was going to object to them and object to it publicly at a meeting.

TK: Outside of your meetings, were you allowed to talk about what happened at the meetings?

CH: Oh sure! We were elected by the people!

TK: So it wasn't closed meetings or anything like that?

CH: You had closed meeting for personnel matters, you know, as long as you didn't violate the closed meeting law, but oh yeah, we definitely, after every 47:00meeting you had reporters up in your face with the microphones you know, so they were well aware of that! And in the final analysis, we were their boss! A lot of people don't realize that to this day that the superintendent and the assistant superintendents and the supervisors and all of those folks, they work for the board!

TK: Rather than vice-a-versa.

CH: Yeah, you know. So those are some of the realizations that a lot of folks even like I say today aren't fully aware of. A lot of people think the superintendent is the head man, you know, chairman of the board is the head man, but normally even today you hear about [Superintendent Stephen] Daeschner . . . 48:00I always think about the . . .

TK: Daeschner, the guy that was . . .

CH: Daeschner, the superintendent of the schools. You know you always hear about him; you very seldom hear about the . . . I don't even know who the chairman of the board is now!

TK: Well, that's what's so interesting because I read about these, you know, I talked to Woodford Porter, I interviewed--I think he's one of the people who actually suggested you in the first place--but you know, you hear about this school board stuff in the past and how important it seemed to be in the black community to get someone on the school board really from the fifties. You know that there were these efforts, but then today, you don't really hear much about the school board.

CH: Well, you hear a little about it. 'Course, the big controversy now is about Central and about whether or not the desegregation plan is going to exist or whether or not it's been declared invalid. Then you had this ruling from North Carolina last week that's going to have some effect on it and so that's the main thing. Then you hear, when people talk, they're usually talking to the attorney 49:00for the school board or the attorney for this group or the attorney for the other group. So really the school board members, you don't get a lot of media, you know, and I think it's to a large extent with the inception of the previous school board superintendent, I've forgotten his name, but the one that was before Daeschner. I think that probably to a large extent the board has moved back to where it was before the hectic days.

TK: Oh, that's interesting.

CH: Because the superintendent is once again in the limelight primarily.

TK: How long were you on the school board?

CH: Nine and a half years.

TK: So 1968 to . . .?

CH: 1968 to 1970 . . . end of '76.

TK: So you were there for all the city/county merger and busing . . .?

CH: At the time of the merger of the school board, I was chairman of the Louisville board.

TK: So could you tell me how the merger happened? Talk about that process.

CH: It was a legal procedure, I mean it was ordered by the court!

TK: Oh, it was! So it wasn't voted on?

CH: No, no, it was ordered by the circuit court in Cincinnati, ordered that the two boards, that the two systems be merged. And of course Judge [James] Gordon was given the task of carrying out of the implementation of the thing. And so one of the things that came about as a result of the merger was the busing plan; 51:00that was brought about as a result of the merger because there was no other way to do it. And of course all hell broke loose at the time that that occurred!

I can remember one specific incident during that first opening of the school in September, I guess it must have been September of '75 or no . . . let's see, it must have been September of '76 . . . and I was at home and I had gotten some information. At that time Todd Hollenbach was county judge and Harvey Sloane was the mayor of Louisville. 'Course, you had two young ambitious politicians, who, 52:00I think, the desegregation just about wiped out both careers to a large extent because after that . . . before that, when they first came in office, everybody saw another Cowger-Cook. I don't, if you remember Cowger-Cook?

TK: I know the names.

CH: Well, [William] Cowger was the mayor and Marlow Cook was county judge and of course they both went on to Washington in the House and one in the Senate. And they thought they had another Cowger-Cook combination; only difference was Cowger-Cook was Republicans and Sloane-Hollenbach were Democrats. But anyway, I was on a conference call with the mayor and the county judge; rioting had broke out in the South End, out in southwest Jefferson County.

TK: Wow!

CH: Oh, there were a lot of riots. There was riots galore and anyway this was 53:00the night that the policeman . . . someone had fired a staple and knocked, hit the policeman in the eye; he eventually lost his eye. And they got a call, either one of the two, I think the county judge got the call because it was in the county, and they got the call that this had happened. And we were talking about the best way to handle it, how we were going to handle this, and then of course, the county judge said, "Well, I've got to go. They need reinforcements out there," blah, blah, blah. But that's the kind of thing that was going on. We had gotten a report, I think I had called one of them or something, because I had got a report that they were going to burn a bus down at Shawnee High School, they were going to do something to the kids if they came in, if they bused them 54:00out there, they were going to turn the bus over and a bunch of stuff, and then they said if they do anything out there, then we going to reciprocate when the white kids are bused in here. None of which happened, thank God. Yeah, that was a pretty hectic time. I think that was the primary reason that I decided that I didn't want another term on the school board.

TK: Had enough, huh?

CH: Yeah, plus the fact that there was not a great deal of congeniality between the city and county members. When they merged the boards, federal law ruled that the chairman of the Louisville board would become vice-chairman of the combined boards and so they kept the same chairman . . . I can't remember who it was at 55:00that time, but then when the election came around to elect a new chairman, it had been the policy forever on both boards that the vice-chairman would become the chairman, and of course, that didn't happen!

TK: Because that was you, right?

CH: That was me, you know! I had two strikes against me, I was black and I was from the city, you know, either one was enough to have caused it not to happen, but anyway with both of them, all you need is one more, you know. And some people raised a question about setting a precedent. And they said we don't care, we don't care, you know, we're not going to elect anybody from city board so they elected one of their own. They had the votes, you know, because see . . . 56:00well, they had the votes some kind of way when the boards combined, there was a process whereby the . . . during the election, if eventually one member would come off, every year until it was down to where it is now. Is it five or seven now?

TK: I don't know.

CH: I think it's down to five, got down to five, but anyway . . .

TK: Oh so rather than re-elect people, they'd just rotate off?

CH: Yeah, yeah, until it got to a manageable size, but anyway a few years later, several years later, I might have been out of the legislature then, they had an internal problem with the board and I think Roberta Tully was scheduled to 57:00become chairman and her faction on the board was at odds with the other faction. And I had told them, I said, "It's going to come back to haunt you," you know what they did to me and so somebody said, "You're breaking precedent!" And somebody said, "No, we're not! Because you remember Carl Hines was vice-chairman and wasn't elected chairman." So it did come back to haunt them! And I called somebody on the board at that time, I said, "Remember I told you that that was going to come to haunt you?" "Yeah, you're right, it sure did." Because they couldn't say they were breaking precedent because it had happened before. But anyway, I think that was one of the main things that caused me not to want to run again. It just was a bad time; it was really a bad time. I got threatening 58:00calls at home.

TK: I was just going to ask about that.

CH: One time one of my kids answered the phone and I wasn't home and they used some foul language and told him that "We going to kill your daddy," and blah, blah, blah. And then when we used to meet out at the county board we had, you know, we had people out there finger in your face and doing all kinds of talk about what's going to happen, this that and the other. By that time I think Bill Summers . . .

TK: III or IV?

CH: III, was on the board with me and we started out of the back of the county school board headquarters to go get in our car and we were talking about what 59:00happened at the meeting. Meetings would just be packed like that, very angry people, you know.

TK: These are school board meetings?

CH: Yeah and we saw these two armed guards. They started having these rent-a-cops come to the meetings. And we walked a few feet and then stop and we was talking. And they'd walk . . . they were about maybe ten, fifteen feet behind us and they'd walk a few feet and then stopped and then we walked. So finally I asked Bill why are they following us. So we asked them. They said, "We were told to see that you all got to your car okay."

TK: Really, wow!

CH: That's how it was. I mean I used to have ideas when I was driving home from out there during those days, I kept my eye in the rearview mirror until I got in the West End, but coming down the expressway and on the way down, I kept my eyes open, you know, because there are a lot of crazies as being proved all around 60:00the country.

TK: Right, right, right.

END OF TAPE 1, SIDE B

START OF TAPE 2, SIDE A

CH: One of those little bitty machines.

TK: Oh, this is a much better quality machine.

CH: Oh, really?

TK: Yeah, the sound quality is really good where those little ones, they . . .

CH: You've got some little ones now that are very good and take one of those little bitty cartridges.

TK: I'm really curious about this because I keep hearing about these busing incidents and you know, I actually read some old newspaper articles they had, right when I moved here, I guess was the anniversary so they had a lot of articles. You said that there were these riots in the South End like how . . . was this during busing or was it before busing?

CH: It was along with busing, in other words when the busing order was given, that's when the demonstrations started. And the demonstrations were not only in the South End, there were demonstrations all around the county. Now you didn't 61:00have as much in the East End of the county, but in the inner area, for example Brownsboro Road area, you know I can remember demonstrations out there and they were all scattered all around the county, you know, and they continued for a long time. I was unfortunate enough to have my oldest son just going into high school, and all of my kids had looked forward to going to Central because me and their mother went to Central, and the busing order came out--my son was going to Valley!

TK: Wow!

CH: Far South End, which was where the worst of the busing was going on! And some friends of ours gave us a back door way to get to Valley High School!

TK: Oh, really.

CH: In the event we had to get out there in a hurry without going out Dixie Highway, because they were throwing things at cars and blocking roads and you know all kind of stuff. So we used to go back so we could come in the rear if we had to go out there for anything. We had to go out there several times, you know, and my being on the school board made it even worse because if somebody recognized me out there. . . . I was supposed to go somewhere and give a speech, I forget where it was . . . Fort Knox . . . somewhere where I'd had to go through Valley Station, through that southern corridor to go out to Fort Knox. I don't think at that time . . . you might had [I-]65, but I'm not sure. But I was advised by Judge Gordon's office not to go.

TK: Oh really?

CH: Yeah. He said if you have to go through there, through that South End I would suggest you not go, because he said if somebody recognizes you, you know, out there, and there's no protection, you by yourself, riding by yourself, and my wife really didn't want me to go anyway, but I was going! But then I called Judge Gordon's office and they said we can't stop you from going, but we would suggest that you don't go.

TK: Wow!

CH: So I didn't go, you know.

TK: Now this one woman that I was talking to about something else, different project, she said that she was driving up through there and she seemed to remember bonfires or something like that. Did they do that kind of stuff?

CH: Yeah, yeah, there was a little bit of everything going on out there. It was bad! And the thing about it . . . one of the problems was the lack of 64:00cooperation between the city and the county as far as the police were concerned, not the police themselves, but as far as the use of the police were concerned. There were situations where the county police were outnumbered in some of those demonstrations, which turned into almost riots. And one specific occasion there were several bus loads of city police sitting that had been offered to the county judge who refused, refused to accept that help from the city. That was a problem because they could have easily had . . . if they had come out there and reinforced the county police they could have easily taken care of the situation.

TK: Why would he refuse it?

CH: Politics. Remember, I told you, I had two young, very ambitious . . .

TK: Yeah, Oh yeah!

CH: One didn't want to get the help from the other so the other might say well, if it hadn't had been for me, you had a riot on your hands, you know, so he wouldn't accept them. And I really think that the busing era ruined both of their political careers!

TK: Was Sloane, what was his position on busing?

CH: Oh, he was pro!

TK: I thought that might be the case.

CH: And I think Todd probably was, too! You know I think they were both were for it or at least they weren't against it, you know. I know both of them and they're both progressive people!

TK: That's what I heard about, I've not heard Hollenbach as much, but somebody was just telling me the other day how progressive Sloane was.

CH: Now Sloane's career had a rebirth years later and he was re-elected mayor.

TK: Oh yeah?

CH: Yeah. Of course he was elected mayor and served one term, back then you could only serve one term, and then some years later he was re-elected. He ran again and was re-elected and probably could have been in office right now had he not chosen to run for Congress. If he had chosen to run for county judge executive, which a lot of people had encouraged him to do, he chose to run for Congress and [Jim] Pop Malone ran for county judge executive and wasn't hardly given a chance against Mitch McConnell. And Mitch McConnell barely beat Pop 67:00Malone and nobody thought that Pop Malone stood a chance against Mitch McConnell so they didn't give him the type of backup and support that he should have been given, because if they had he would have probably beat Mitch McConnell; there's no doubt in anybody's mind, which would have ended his career, which could have been one of the best things that ever happened to any of us. But anyway if Harvey had ran, no doubt he would have beat him easily, because he barely beat Pop Malone.

TK: Sloane ran for Congress and he didn't . . .

CH: And he lost.

TK: And he didn't do anything since?

CH: I think that was his last hurrah as far as politics was concerned.

TK: Is he still living in the area?

CH: No, no, he's in Washington D.C. area. I forget what he's doing now. You know 68:00his wife Kathy was the one who sold the Clintons the house up in New York!

TK: No, really!

CH: Yeah!

TK: I had no idea! That's really interesting!

CH: Yeah, Kathy Sloane!

TK: No I had no idea! I mean like I said I've heard of him, someone was just telling me . . .

CH: There was an article in the paper about Kathy and you know she was very controversial. She had a big lawsuit with this clothing store; they said that she owed several hundred thousand dollars for clothes she had bought here.

TK: Yeah, I did hear about that.

CH: And they finally got that settled and then she's a realtor up there and she's the one who was, I guess . . . I'm sure it was a cross sell because I doubt if she has property listed in New York but she's probably licensed in New York. So she probably, I guess, has become close to the Clintons and she was the 69:00one handled that deal.

TK: I didn't know that. I should pay more attention. When you said you went off the board after the busing stuff, what did you do next?

CH: Well, I hadn't planned to do anything politically. Of course the school board is non-partisan, although it's partisan as hell, but it's really non-partisan because when John Bell and I ran for a second term, it was definitely partisan. The three people that ran against us they were, one of them was . . . he's the county commissioner . . . Russ Maple.

TK: Oh, really?

CH: Yeah. You know Russ was a Republican for years!

TK: I heard that, yeah.

CH: And of course the lady that ran with him was a Republican and they ran against John and I when we were up for our second term, and we obliterated them 70:00really, but everybody was scared to death, especially the board, I mean the superintendent. So we ran again as a team. Well, we didn't run as a team, but we worked as a team, because John brought a lot of paraphernalia and posters and what have you down to me and I put all mine in his stuff, so he distributed my stuff all over the East End up there and I distributed his stuff all over the West End.

TK: Wow! That's a good arrangement.

CH: But it was no contest! But the board, I mean Newman and his staff were really concerned about it. I don't know if you heard about this thing called the satellite lunch?

TK: No.

CH: It was a lunch program that all the lunches were made in the central office 71:00and went out to schools like a satellite you know, and it was a horrible program. 'Course' we had voted for it and Russ and his running mate used this as their main thing to beat us, the satellite lunch. The parents didn't like it, nobody liked it, you know, but it didn't last one semester, maybe a year; I doubt if it was a year. All this stuff is in this book. So that was their main criteria for running against us, how we messed up. There was a lot of other stuff, too, merger and all the stuff, you know, the possibility because we had threatened to quit. You know we were going to close the school down, but as it turned out, it wasn't even close. I think we beat them better than two to one or something like that.

TK: Oh wow!

CH: Yeah. Anyway when I came off the school board, as I was saying, I had no 72:00thought of going into partisan politics and it just so happened that in 1977, I came off at the end of '76, in 1977 they had a primary coming up and I was approached by some folks in my district and asked to run for the legislature. At the time these folks felt that my visibility, my credibility, and reliability were sufficient to where I could beat Norb Blume, who was a two-time speaker of the house. He was a big honcho in Frankfort, you know, but he represented our 73:00district for years. They said if we don't take advantage of this opportunity, we'll never get anybody in. We want one of our people to represent us because the district was, I guess, eighty some percent black.

TK: And Norb was white.

CH: Yeah, Norb was white, but he's a nice guy. Norb and I, till this day, we still friends. Last time I saw him was I think in New Orleans. I was down there for a U of L football game. He's retired now. Saw he and his brother and my wife and I were there together, I hadn't seen Norb in a while, but anyway they talked me into running. I had never; I knew absolutely nothing about partisan politics because school board race is altogether different! You don't go out and beat on doors and talk to LD chairmans and talk to precinct captains, all that stuff, 74:00you know, it's altogether different ball game. So I said okay and I decided to run in the primary, which is the key, you know. In a lot of races you win the primary, you've won, especially then as far as Democrats are concerned before Lyndon Johnson signed the South over to the Republicans with the voting rights and all, but anyway we organized a campaign committee and I had some very good people. I had a guy who was a bookkeeper and so forth as my treasurer.

TK: Do you know his name?

CH: See if you hadn't asked me.

TK: I was just wondering if it was Claude Benboe?

CH: No, no, heck no!

TK: He's earlier.

CH: Claude's my mother's age!

TK: Oh, okay, see, I hear the names but I don't necessarily know . . .

CH: His wife was a LD chairman, yeah, Maude. See, Maude and Claude were very good friends of my mother.

TK: Oh really?

CH: Yeah, they were . . .

TK: They're a generation earlier than you then.

CH: Well, if my mother was living, yeah, I guess it is a generation, because if my mother was living, she'd be ninety-one, I think, and they were all around the same age. They were friends as long as I can remember when I was a little-bitty boy. In fact as long as I can remember, Maude and mother were always . . . Claude . . . they were friends forever, but they were altogether a different era.

TK: When I interrupted you, you were saying that you had these guys? You were talking about your campaign staff.

CH: Yeah, Ned Harris was my treasurer, a guy named Ned Harris. He's not here 76:00anymore and then I had, you know, I just put together a campaign committee and we sat around and strategized what we were going to do. Then I got volunteers started coming out of the wall! And we just organized the whole LD district, you know, [unintelligible] district and to make a long story short, we won by about sixty votes! And going back to my naiveté, I don't know whether you are aware of this or not, but I wasn't at the time, when the precincts close, what you do, the candidate or their worker or somebody, whoever is on that particular precinct, back then that was before you had all the laws about campaigning around the precinct or so forth, they would always go to the machine and take 77:00the vote off the back, you know, where it's recorded. So many votes for Carl Hines, so many votes for Norb Blume! I didn't know nothing about that. So we planned a victory party at the Yearling's Club down on Broadway, Forty-Fourth and Broadway. I had a buddy of mine, who was part owner of a liquor store, gave us a case of liquor and everybody brought food. We going to have a celebration whether I win or lose! So I think one or two people knew a little bit about what they were doing and brought the tabulation in. I was sitting there, waiting for the media to let me know whether I won or lost! One of the reporters came in and 78:00said they had just left Norb Blume's house where he was set up in his kitchen and counting votes, and said that Norb thinks that he's in trouble. He said, "What's your count?" I said, "We don't have a count!" So anyway, it's so funny now. Anyway, they said they had counted everything except your home precinct and the precinct next to your home precinct and said Norb told somebody said we in trouble. I'll never forget that guy saying that, said Norb told his people, he said "We in trouble." And 'course, as it turned out when those two precincts were counted, I had won! And Norbert called me over at the club and wanted to 79:00congratulate me, because we ran a very nice, there wasn't no name calling, no rock throwing, you know, we really ran on the issues on what we could do and what we wanted to do if we got elected. It didn't get into a racial thing, you know, there wasn't no black\white issues brought up. It was just a good clean race! I never will forget, they interviewed Norb the next day after he admitted we had won, and they asked him about would he going to contest it, was he going file . . . He took a recount, which is natural, but was he going to require a . . . what do you call it when you go past the recount . . . you know . . .

TK: Oh, what is that?

CH: It's when you go in the machine and count every vote and all that stuff. He said, "No, I didn't come into office as a crier and I'm not going out like that. Carl won, he won fair and square and that's the way it's going to be." And that's the kind of guy he was. Norb did a good job for our district! They just wanted to have a black representative, you know, and they figured that at that point in time I could beat him because I had good credibility and so forth from the school board.

TK: Because of the school board experience?

CH: Yeah.

TK: Did you have that much of a race at all in the regular campaign then, because that's all the primaries?

CH: No. I didn't have another race of any kind, which probably was the reason I got beat, until Porter Hatcher ran against me and that's another story, which I 81:00won't get into. I didn't become aware that Porter was going to run until a week or so before the deadline for filing. In fact I was under the impression and for good reason, I'll just leave it there, that he wasn't. And he called me and of course we were in Frankfort, we were in session, and this was up in March, middle of March.

TK: What year?

CH: 1986, yeah, '86. We were still in session and the last day for filing was 82:00coming up on a week later and I got a call from Porter that he decided that he had changed his mind, and decided to run. Well, in the meantime I had made no preparations whatever.

TK: For a campaign, yeah.

CH: For a campaign. When I found this out I've got to start. . . . And I was kind of disgusted, you know, I had been there for four terms, was in my fourth term, and I really never was, I don't think, cut out to be a politician because all the other races were unopposed or maybe just minimum opposition in the 83:00general election. I don't think I ran another primary after the first one that I can remember and then I had just very limited opposition, token opposition, in the general election. But anyway I tried to put a campaign together, but I didn't really put my heart and soul in it. I just, I don't know, I guess at that point in time I had become saturated with the politics and some of things that were going on so I lost, you know, I think a hundred and some votes, something like that. I know if I had gone out and worked and really got my people together and really worked like I did that first time I could have won it without much trouble. I wasn't too sorry about it and a lot of people that saw me afterwards 84:00said you don't act like . . . I said well, come ci, come ca, you know!

TK: Yeah, I did that and I can do something else.

CH: My wife was glad because I was driving back and forth to Frankfort everyday and I had gotten older and so . . .

TK: It's a long drive.

CH: I thought about running again. In fact, I was very seriously considering running for Georgia's seat, because Georgia was getting ready to come out that following election and Gerald Neal kept asking me, "Are you going to run! Are you going to run!" I said "Gerald, I'll let you know in plenty of time." "I want 85:00to know!" I want to know if you going to run or not!" So anyway I thought about it and I thought about the Sunday evenings when I was watching football and get a phone call and the meetings that I had to go to and all of that kind of stuff. There was some good sides to it, too, you have a few perks and what have you. One of things that I really enjoyed was the relationships that I made outside of Louisville. See, I was on the executive committee of the National Black Caucus of State Legislators, and so that's what those pictures are for, we were meeting with the president. We met with [President Jimmy] Carter and the other one we was meeting with was [President Ronald] Reagan. Look at those pictures and see if you notice anything different about them.

TK: Well, let's see, you're actually getting your hand shaken there.

CH: Well yeah, I got a handshake there, but I mean the two on your side. The one on your left is the meeting with Reagan and I'm way over in the corner. The one on the right is the meeting with Jimmy Carter.

TK: And you're like right there! You're like two people over, three people over?

CH: Well no, I'm facing him, directly facing him.

TK: Oh this over here. I see you! A little more welcoming, is that what you're trying to say?

CH: Well, if you'll notice the expression of the faces of the meeting with Reagan as opposed to the conviviality of the meeting with Jimmy Carter. It was altogether different! Plus when we left the meeting with Jimmy Carter as everybody went out, he had a photographer there to take a picture, which is that picture there, and I probably wouldn't have took one with Reagan anyhow, not 87:00smiling. But there was altogether a different atmosphere in the room for the meeting and you can easily tell it from those two pictures, because everybody on there is . . .

TK: Kind of glum.

CH: And prior to his coming in, George Bush, we had to wait about a hour or so for the president, and George Bush came in and gave us, though he was, gave us the biggest snow job you ever heard. We just sat there and looked at each other and said, "Man, does he think we crazy!" I mean it was just paternalistic the way he was talking to us and we just sat there "What does this man, who does he think he's talking to you, a bunch of idiots?" And so he hadn't set a very good atmosphere for his boss to walk into! And of course, he comes in with the big 88:00Reagan smile, you know!

TK: He wasn't exactly known for having good relationships with African-Americans.

CH: No indeed! Of course, he said he didn't know there was segregation. You remember that?

TK: Yeah.

CH: I said I don't believe it. [Laughter]

TK: Well, looking back you said you enjoyed meeting people around the state, not obviously outside the state, but looking back at your time in the legislature, what do you think were some of the main issues that you dealt with or the most important things you helped to accomplish?

CH: Well, it's very difficult, you know, the legislature is made up of a hundred representatives and thirty senators and when you are one in a hundred it's very difficult to be effective alone. Now I was involved, you know, as a sponsor of a 89:00number of activities. I served on the education committee. I was a member of the appropriations sub-committee for education. I served on the . . . oh heck . . . what was the other committee that I served on? . . . it's been thirteen, fourteen years now . . . a committee that deals with social . . .

TK: Human welfare?

CH: Yeah, human welfare committee and also . . . what was the other primary committee that I served on . . . but anyway I think on a lot of the issues, and 90:00you're dealing with statewide issues primarily, and there were a lot of issues that affected Louisville. Depending on which side you're on, I was the floor manager for the bill that, the Sunday drink law bill; nobody else would manage it! They were scared, you know. And at the last minute a guy named, representative Carl Nick was going to manage it and for whatever reasons, which I guess he thought were good reasons, he decided that he didn't want to manage it and they couldn't get anybody else to manage it, so they came to me and asked me would I handle it and of course, Lexington was very interested in that deal as well, being able to sell drinks on Sunday, you know, and so forth . . .

END OF TAPE 2, SIDE A

START OF TAPE 2, SIDE B

CH: . . . And there were several other bills that, you know, none of them really 91:00earth shattering, but there was a bill that I was trying to sponsor on regard to minority participation as far as contracts were concerned, you know, state contracts; I think that's the first time that came up. Since then, it's been amended several times and the percentages have been increased and some of the things that we didn't want in there have since been removed as a result of some of the other things. I think that [unintelligible] Gray finally got a real good bill passed a couple of terms ago. Oh, it's all part of the legislative record, you know. [Laughter]

TK: I was going to say they didn't start keeping that legislative record until 92:00fairly recently. Like you can't go back to the thirties or forties, but I know that in the sixties and seventies, they have it.

CH: Oh yeah, I've got a copy of it. I've got a copy of every bill I introduced.

TK: Oh yeah?

CH: Somewhere. Either introduced or cosponsored. [Pause while CH looking through papers]

TK: I think our library has, the law school, seems to me, has the . . .

CH: I've got it somewhere, but I don't know where it is. I sent for it for a particular reason. This might be it. No, this is election reports, finance reports. [Tape stopped]

TK: . . . A few clarifying questions of things that we somehow missed as we were 93:00talking about this stuff. Is that it?

CH: In here, it really doesn't give you anything but the numbers. It doesn't tell you what they were . . . [Tape paused]

TK: Well, maybe while that's going I can . . .

CH: That will be done in a minute.

TK: Yeah, then like I said, I can take it to the law school and just get the actual bill. [Tape paused] I think just to kind of wrap up I had a couple of little questions . . .

CH: Excuse me for interrupting, but you know the Courier-Journal has a file.

TK: Did they keep a file on you?

CH: Yeah! I've seen it because I had to go up there and get something one time and whoever I was with took me back to where they had it. They've got a big file full of, I guess, every time that I've been in the paper, every time you know what have you so there's a file up there.

TK: Well, that's interesting. I've got a contact there, Merv Aubespin offered to 94:00help me with whenever . . .

CH: Oh yeah, I know Merv. Merv and I have been friends for years.

TK: So I'll ask him and that's Courier-Journal file because I've read the Courier-Journal up to 1960, but I haven't read past 1960 yet. And I read the Defender up to 1954 so I haven't read the rest of it yet. So I still got a ways to go with both of them.

CH: Well, that was before my time. Actually that was before the time that you're interested in really except for some of the pioneers like Woodford's daddy and folks like that; Lyman Johnson and some others that go back past then, you know.

TK: Yeah, there's not too many of those people around to talk to anymore. Like I said, I did talk to Woodford Porter, he told me about his dad and I did talk to James Crumlin and we talked about the early forties a little bit, and Ben Shobe talked about the early fifties, but that's it; that's all I have from before 1954. So the book is going to go at the end of the story, I think, I'm going to go up through busing and maybe up through like . . .

CH: Have you talked to Georgia?

TK: Not yet. She's a P, right and I'm going alphabetically, so I haven't got to her yet.

CH: Oh, okay.

TK: But she is on my list and someone has already asked her if she would talk with me and she's already said yes, informally. I haven't, like you know with you, how I wrote the letter and then called.

CH: Now you won't be able to talk to Ms. [Mae Street] Kidd.

TK: Yeah, but I do have the book that just came out about her.

CH: I'm her [unintelligible] attorney.

TK: Really! I didn't know that.

CH: Have been for about six years, I guess now.

TK: Did you become a real estate agent after all this other stuff?

CH: Yeah, I got my real estate license in 1970. Let's see where was I . . . I was on the school board!

TK: Right, right.

CH: When I got my real estate license.

TK: Because that was after the open housing stuff.

CH: Yeah, I went on the school board in '68 and I got my license in '69, because 96:00I left Mammoth in '69 and in 1970 I got my real estate license and I think in '71 I got my broker's license, but I really didn't start my real estate business per se, I just had the license I renewed every year until, I guess, '86.

TK: Oh, very recent, well, that's relatively recent.

CH: Yeah, when I left Frankfort.

TK: When you got off the legislature.

CH: Yeah, because prior to that, I was director of a housing agency.

TK: Really?

CH: Yeah, the Housing Opportunity Center.

TK: Is that a governmental organization?

CH: It was. It started out as an arm of the Kentucky Commission on Human Rights and it was an experimental agency on trying to integrate neighborhoods is what 97:00it was about. Eventually it was a R & D project of HUD, Research and Development of HUD, Housing of Urban Development and then after two or three years, it spun off and became an independent agency with its own board and so forth, but it was still receiving a grant from the government. And then after the change of administrations and the change of philosophy as far as towards housing and so forth, it got to the point where it had to be . . . it was already independent but it was being funded out of Washington and of course, all those good funds were cut off and then we had to raise our own funds, which we did for a number 98:00of years. And then in 1994, 3, 2, 4 . . . we moved into this building in 1980 and I think it was around '94, we finally got to the point where we just couldn't survive. We had moved down. One time we had an office here and in Lexington with a staff of about thirty people and as funds started diminishing and some of the things we were doing to raise funds on our own, they cut out and then we were scrambling around for funds from everywhere, state, city, county and so forth and then it got to the point where it was just too big a hassle 99:00because we were down to a staff of three--me, a secretary, and one more person. So we finally just closed the shop.

TK: And that had grown out of, you said it started off as the Human Relations Commission?

CH: Kentucky Commission on Human . . .

TK: Kentucky, not the local one.

CH: Yeah, not local, Kentucky.

TK: Kentucky Commission . . .

CH: On Human Rights.

TK: And did it come out of the open housing movement or was it later?

CH: Yeah I think it probably did, it came out of the open housing movement, because like I said, it was 1970. Open housing law took effect in what, '64?

TK: '67.

CH: Yeah, okay. At that time Galen Martin was the director at the Human Rights Commission. So we had two offices and a big staff and what have you. That's how that came about. So it was primarily during the time I was in Frankfort, because 100:00I left Mammoth in '69 and I came to work for the HOC in 1970, and so most of the time that I was in Frankfort I was director of the Housing Opportunity Center.

TK: That sounds like an interesting organization, I'll have to look up that so more, you know. You had mentioned that most of your work was through the school board and then in the House and legislature, did you ever get involved in demonstrations or anything like that at all?

CH: I remember taking part in two marches. I can't give you dates or times, but I can remember, recall taking part in two marches. And then one time when Dr. [Martin Luther] King was here, I was involved in that. We had a big meeting at 101:00the Armory, well, it's the . . .

TK: Gardens now.

CH: Yeah, Louisville Gardens. We had a big meeting up there and I was involved in that because we met and organized and met with Dr. King down at Zion Baptist Church at Twenty-Second and Muhammad Ali. But I was not an active participant when they had the marches and things; I was a little old for that.

TK: Yeah, you would have been in your upper thirties, right?

CH: Yeah, at least because I very well remember them, you know, and know some of the kids that were in it. 'Course, they're not kids now, but I was a little older than most of those people then and probably wouldn't have worked out too 102:00well, somebody spit on me or hit me with a brick or rock I'd probably found me a rock and threw it back. [Laughter] And you know those were supposed to be non-violent marches and stuff, you know, and I don't know if I was cut out for that.

TK: And you had children by that time?

CH: Yeah, well, my kids were too small; they were young then.

TK: Let me see I think those are basically all of my questions. See if there's anything else I needed to clarify. Most of the story, the outlines of the story about the merger, I can get from the newspapers, so.

CH: And then you can call me about that book.

TK: Yeah, that would be great. Would the merger be discussed in that book then, too, the city-county merger?

CH: Oh yeah, yeah.

TK: That would be great!

CH: It covers the whole Newman Walker era from the time Newman came here . . .

TK: And how to you spell his first name?

CH: N-E-W-M-A-N.

TK: Okay, for some reason I, N-U-M- I'm thinking, but Newman Walker. So that all 103:00would be covered then?

CH: Until he leaves, until he leaves to go to California to take a superintendency out there in Oakland, not in Oakland . . . where's Newman . . . Oh, outside of San Francisco but not across the bridge . . . well anyway, it tells you in the book.

TK: I've only been to San Francisco once so, okay. So I can call you at home about that book, right?

CH: Yeah, yeah.

TK: Because if I can just get the title and the author I can get, I can just order it from the bookstore because that way I can mark up it and not mess up your copy.

CH: It will give you an inside view because this guy was here. He was on the staff. He was part of the staff during that era. He was one of the guys that Newman brought in and it's taking him a long time to get the book published and 104:00he finally was able to get it published. Let's see, I think the name of the book is "A Dream Deferred."

TK: That sounds familiar!

CH: The story of trying to change inner city school system.

TK: Inner city schools, okay, and you don't know his name, the author?

CH: I can't think of it.

TK: That's what I'll have to call and ask you about. Wonder if school board records would have anything on all these discussions if I can even get to them?

CH: I doubt it. I doubt it for a couple of reasons. First of all, well, I know when we discussed merger and desegregation and busing, the way an army would 105:00discuss a major campaign. We used to meet on the top floor of the Brown Hotel, which was then the home office building in old man [James Graham] Brown's, where he lived. I know he liked to die because at that time I was president of the school board, he was probably turning over and over in his grave. I was also president of the school board when we bought the Brown Hotel, but anyway we would . . . you know Newman and his staff and we would go up there and we would have our food, sometimes our drinks and what have you, we'd be very informal. You know that's just like the thing I was telling you about, the difference, you know, it wasn't all done by Newman and his staff and then brought back to the 106:00board, we as a board were up there, you know, no ties, T-shirts, you know, what have you. Caroline would have on slacks, you know, so forth, very casual. And we would just strategize, counter-move like playing chess, you know, okay, if we do this, they're going to do that. This was prior to the merger, because we knew if there was any way possible, the county board and staff was going to try to see that none of our people got any strategic or important positions within the merged system. And so, as it turned out, five years after the merger all of the major positions were held by former Louisville school board staff.

TK: Really? That's interesting!

CH: Well, all you had on staff out there was a bunch of football coaches! And the people, like I say, the people that Newman brought in were academic people, you know, and people with doctorates and special degrees and so forth, you know. They were intelligent people, you know, very smart and Newman was smart. And he had Frank Yeager, who was the guardian of his back, who was very smart. All of this is discussed in the book. But we used to go up there and we'd stay there until twelve, one o'clock at night.

TK: Wow.

CH: Just working our strategy of counter-moves and counter-moves, you know, because we knew what was going to happen. It was a real . . . it's something I'll never forget. He resigned shortly after the merger, the county superintendent, and then Newman resigned and put . . . what's his name? . . . had about as much business being superintendent as I have of being a space jockey . . . what was his name? . . . he didn't last that long . . . what was that guy's name? He was a finance man for the county board and he didn't know anything about being a superintendent.

TK: Just didn't have the expertise?

CH: No, not only expertise as far as administrative ability, but as far as 109:00people ability. Oh, what was his name? I can't think of his name.

TK: So he was only superintendent for a brief period?

CH: Yeah about a year, something like that. Of course when they brought in the next superintendent, he was more or less sort of a house cleaning type guy. He didn't have any allegiances to either system and that's when the cream started rising to the top, you know.

TK: In terms of the staff?

CH: In terms of the staff. When he finished his job and moved on ,then they brought in the last superintendent that was here for quite a while before Daeschner . . . oh, what was his name? I can't think of his name.

TK: I think it was before my time. I've only been here four years. I can't think of any other questions. I'm going to turn this off.

END OF INTERVIEW