Interview with Martin Perley, February 23, 2000

Tracy K'Meyer: This is an interview with Rabbi Martin Perley, conducted at his home on February 23, 2000.

Martin Perley: I was born in Philadelphia on October 11, 1910. My parents moved to Canada when I was three and half years old. So I grew up in Canada and was educated in Canada. I got my B.A. Degree at McGill University. Then I graduated from McGill in 1930. Then went to New York to study at the Hebrew Union College Jewish Institute of Religion in 1930. I received my rabbinical degree there in June of 1934. Then I went to Australia for two years where I was a rabbi of a 1:00congregation. Came back, then I was director for three years, from '38 to '41, at the [unintelligible] Foundation at the University of Illinois and Indiana University. In 1941, I went to [unintelligible] Arkansas. Then in January of 1943, I went into the army as a chaplain. I was in the army for three and half years. Served eighteen months overseas at Okinawa, at the [unintelligible] campaign. Then I was in the Philippines. When I came back I got out of the army in 1946, I came to Louisville.

TK: What brought you to Louisville? Why Louisville?

MP: I was invited to become the rabbi at the Temple there, Temple 2:00[unintelligible] Shalom. As I was active in community affairs, made some [unintelligible] as a matter of fact. My concept of religion is not to be just a pastor. My concept of religion is to pursue justice. To get involved in human affairs, social affairs, race relations, so I naturally became actively involved in the black revolution. It was starting in the 1950s. In the early 1960s I became chairman of the Louisville area Council on Religion and Race.

TK: When did that start?

MP: That started around 1964. Shortly after I became chairman of the Council on Religion and Race, we had these disturbances in Selma, Alabama. Martin Luther King was marching from Selma to Montgomery, and Reverend Reed was killed and another woman was killed. In my capacity of chairman of Council on Religion and Race, I made a statement condemning Bull Conner, chief of police, and police brutality in Alabama. But I was, of course, played up big. There were protests around the country because of the brutality. I had a call, A.D. Williams King, he was Martin Luther King's brother, who was a minister at the time, in the 1965 4:00of the Zion Baptist Church. He called me and said, "Do you know the NAACP [National Association for the Advancement of Colored People] and the Black Workers Coalition, everyone is planning protest marches." But he felt that there should be only march of theological organizations to be arranged, it was the Council on Religion and Race. He suggested that I take the initiative and arrange that march.

I called a special meeting of the civil rights leaders on a Friday afternoon. A.D. Williams King came up. His father, Martin Luther King, Sr., was in town. He attended the meeting also. In fortyeight hours we arranged a protest march 5:00demonstration on the steps of the county courthouse. We put in calls to [unintelligible] [U.S. Senator] John Sherman Cooper, [U.S. Senator] Thruston Morton, and the mayor and the governor to attend the march. When I came home that Friday afternoon, my wife told me there were calls from Morton and Sherman Cooper and from the governor's office. I called them back and Morton said he wouldn't be able to attend this demonstration. But he's been working all week with Senator [Everett] Dirksen, working on the civil rights law, and so on. It 6:00was just an excuse not to attend, because he didn't want to be a part of that. But John Sherman Cooper, I don't know if you've ever heard of him. He was a great Senator from here. John Sherman Cooper told me that he really wants to attend this demonstration, but he's got a problem. He's on the Agricultural Committee, which has a meeting at 8:00 on Monday morning. This was set for 3:00 Sunday afternoon. He said Senator Eastland from Mississippi, chairman of the committee, he was going to change the meeting just because of the civil rights thing. So he said, if he could arrange the transportation, he will be present at this demonstration. If not, he'll send a telegram and like me to read it. He'd 7:00be glad to accept any petitions we have and put them in the Congressional Record, which he did.

At any rate, the governor's office called to say the governor was attending a meeting of the governors, and he wouldn't be back in time to attend this thing. But his personal representative, his assistant, would come to represent him at this march. Well, I had a call Saturday afternoon from Senator Cooper's office from his assistance to say that the Senator has been walking around the office all afternoon muttering, "I've got to get to Louisville, I've got to get to Louisville." He said he didn't know what the hell he wanted to be in Louisville for, but he just left to have a dinner at the White House, [Lyndon B.] Johnson 8:00was President, and he just told us to say he wasn't able to arrange the transportation but he would send the telegram that he wants me to read at this demonstration. Well, the demonstration was held on the courthouse steps at 3:00 on Sunday afternoon. There were 3,000 people there. Nuns, priests and a good crosssection. First time nuns were out in force. To my surprise, the governor was there and decided to march with us instead of his assistant. I knew exactly, nobody ever told me this, but I knew exactly why the governor came. This thing was so much on John Sherman Cooper's mind that when he was having dinner with 9:00the governor, he told him he wants to get to Louisville but wasn't able to get to Louisville. Told him about this demonstration. And I can just see Johnson in his brisk way, telling him to "Get on the phone and call Governor [Edward T.] Breathitt, tell him to get himself over to that demonstration," because Johnson felt it was very important. So that's why he came. At any rate, Cooper called me about three times Sunday morning, called to say he's going to send the telegram and be sure to read the telegram. Then an hour later he called me and said, "We didn't think the telegram was warm enough." He wanted to send another telegram. So he sent this other telegram to read. This thing was so much on his mind, it really bothered him. And that was a [unintelligible] demonstration. The biggest 10:00demonstration that's ever been held in Louisville. 3,000 people. And Cooper put it all in the Congressional Record. I don't know if I gave it to the Filson Club or the Temple has it.

Incidentally, it's got nothing to do with this, but with all the stuff about the Ten Commandments being held in school. I was one of the plaintiffs in the Supreme Court case that the ACLU [American Civil Liberties Union] presented in 1979. I testified against, about the unconstitutionality of hanging the Ten Commandments, or requiring them to be in the classes. As a matter of fact, when I testified before the Judicial Committee of the House and the Senate in 11:00Frankfort, there was a Senator Robert Martin who was president of Eastern Kentucky University. He was on the committee. He came up to me afterwards and he said, "You know, you're absolutely right about this thing being unconstitutional. But I can't be sitting in the eyes of my constituents as voting against the Ten Commandments. I'm going to have to vote for it." That's was propels most of these people. Anyway, that's on the side.

TK: Can I ask a question, it sort of asks a little bit about your development, is when did you first specifically get interested in racial issues, or how did that happen?

MP: I got interested in the demonstrations and spoke about it and got my 12:00congregation to pass a resolution saying that they support the civil rights laws, especially on open housing. You'll find that in the material there. It was in the 1930s actually, I had Lyman Johnson come and speak to my young people's group in 1956. That was a rather brave thing to do at the time, having a guy like Johnson. I preached about human rights. To me, that was religion. That's my concept of religion. As a matter of fact, I have a very conservative member of my temple, used to come to services every Saturday morning and Friday night. 13:00Saturday mornings I usually preach from the Bible, text from the Bible. But he came out to tell me, he said, "You know, when you stick to the Bible (stick to what he called religion), you're the best rabbi in the world. But when you get involved in these politics, with civil rights, you stink." He used to get very mad when I spoke about civil rights. But I used to speak about civil rights quite a bit.

TK: What's the earliest issue you got involved with?

MP: You mean civil rights issue? Well, I guess it was during the Mayor Bruce Hoblitzell was sheriff of Jefferson County Jail. He appointed a citizen's 14:00advising committee composed of a priest, a minister, a black minister and a rabbi. We were the civic religious advisors to the committee. And when he elected mayor in 1959, he named us as his civic religious advisors, as mayor. He called us together and said, you know, when he was running for mayor, he was asked what he was going to do about the racial situation when he was down in the West End. He said, "Well, I don't know but I have a civic religious advising committee, and I'll have them advise me as to what to do." He called us together and said he wanted to do something about that. So we advised him to establish an advising committee on human relations, the Mayor's Advising Committee on Human 15:00Relations. Of course, at that time one of the issues involved in 1959 was the University of Louisville didn't have a swimming pool. They used to use the YMCA pool for their swimming team. It came to my attention that U of L had some black people on the team and they couldn't use the YMCA swimming pool. So we started working on that issue. Then we started working on the other issues, the push for open housing and public accommodations and things like that.

TK: You mean with the restaurants and theaters and things like that?

MP: We started pushing for legislation in the 1950s. Of course, in 1960, we had the Mayor's Commission on Human Relations. As a matter of fact, Phil Davidson, who's president of the University of Louisville, was the cochairman of the committee. When the commission became established by a county ordinance in 1961 or '62, the director was Mansir Tydings. Mansir Tydings wanted to get the religious background just for the occasion, for the push for civil rights. So [unintelligible] [Monsignor Alfred] Horrigan and I threw up the religious 17:00background based on the Bible for justifying religious involvement in the struggle to obtain civil rights. So I guess that was probably one of the first things that I did.

TK: Would that document be in your records? That statement?

MP: It would be in the record.

TK: Because that would be interesting to read, I think.

MP: This would have been in about 1962. My predecessor, Mansir Tydings, used to quote it quite often. So it would be in the public records. But then, as I say, I got involved as chairman of Council on Religion and Race.

TK: How did that organization form? Do you know how it started?

MP: There was a national conference convention on religion and race in Chicago around 1963, '64. Reverend [W.J.] Hodge, who was an alderman, a black minister of the 5th Street Baptist Church, attended that commission, and he came back. We got a group of clergy men who were interested in civil rights together, thought we ought to form a Louisville area Council on Religion and Race. So we had 19:00Bishop Marmion [Episcopal bishop] and the Catholic archbishop and some of the leading clergy. We organized this. It's interesting how I became the first chairman of it. Kind of interreligious jealousies. They didn't want to elect Catholics, the Catholics didn't want to elect a Protestant, the Protestants didn't want to elect a Catholic. So they compromised on me. That's how I became the chairman of the Council on Religion and Race. I have a letter which the Temple has from Lyndon Johnson greeting us on our first area conference that they had. He speaks of the Great Society. It was one of the first times he spoke of the Great Society. I gave that letter, the Temple has that letter.

TK: What kinds of things did the Council do?

MP: The Council on Religion and Race? They started pushing for legislation for ordinances for public housing and so on. They tried to establish better relations between blacks and black ministers and whites and so on. I've got a whole folder on it. When you go to the Temple, you'll find all the newspaper clippings on it. It's going to be a lot of work for you, going through it. I've got thousands of I've got eight more of those at the Temple. I just gave them a little while ago. They've got my clippings for the Council on Religion and Race, 21:00a whole section on that. If you want do to research, you've got a lot of material.

TK: Really, it sounds like there's a lot. That's one of the organizations that I'm interested in because I've heard of it. But I've never been able to find much information on it.

MP: I've got a lot of material on it. You'll find it at the Temple archives. Before you leave I'll give you the name of the person who is in charge and arrange to go in there. They have a library where you can work in and look at the material.

TK: That sounds wonderful. Were you involved in the march on Frankfort?

MP: Yes, I was there at the march on Frankfort. When was it, '64? Martin Luther King was there. I met Martin Luther, marched with him a number of times. He used to come to Louisville quite often because his brother, A.D. Williams King, was a 22:00pastor here. He came many times for marches in the South End, things like that. As a matter of fact, one of the toughest experiences I had was in 1965. See, I became director of the Human Relations Commission on April 1, 1968, four days before Martin Luther King was assassinated. I represented the city at Martin Luther King's funeral in Atlanta, city and county as a matter of fact. Then about six weeks after that we had riots in Louisville. Of course, I had to 23:00handle all those riots. You've got in there the 25th anniversary of the Detroit riot and so on. Then a little black fourteen year old boy was killed at the riots. After we had the things almost quieted down. We had [unintelligible] down there. There were all these civil rights leaders, black leaders, milling around the home of the Gross boy that was killed. The chief of police was down there. I tried to talk Mrs. Gross into appealing to the community for calm because it's only going to lead to more tragedies. As a matter of fact, she insisted taking 24:00me [unintelligible] when I went to see her. A lot of the [unintelligible] was still on the sidewalks. I went down, she was showing me. Her father didn't want to go along with it but she finally went along with this. So I called the command post at the police station and I said to set up a TV, a press conference. I wrote her speech for her, in very simple language which kind of [unintelligible] appealed to Martin Luther King, for calm, didn't want any more of these tragedies and so on. This was broadcasted widely, live, as a matter of fact, it was on national TV as well.

TK: So could you tell me a little bit about the riot? How it got started and then how you got involved in it?

MP: As chairman of the Council on Religion and Race, Detroit had a riot about two or three years before. And we heard the reports of what happened in Detroit. We found that one of the problems was when people went to the hospital, there was no way of finding out information or if they were arrested. There's no way of finding out information about their dear ones. That increased the tensions so that one of the things that I did as chairman of the Council on Religion and Race before I was director of the Human Relations Commission, was to establish teams of clergymen, Catholics, Protestants, blacks and so to be at the hospitals in case we had any problems, any rioting or anything, to be at the hospitals, to be at the county jail. Of course, when the riots, the riots were back in May of 26:001968, just a few weeks after I became director of the Human Relations Commission.

I started to tell you, the day before the riots began, there was a big civil rights meeting at Zion Baptist Church. On that morning my wife was in the hospital, that Sunday morning, and Kenneth Schmied was the mayor of Louisville. He called and said, "You know, I'm supposed to speak and give the key of the city to [Reverend Ralph] Abernathy in 1968." Because Abernathy had just succeed 27:00Martin Luther King as head of the SCLC [Southern Christian Leadership Conference]. So he said, "Will you do it for me?" He said, "I've got a cold." So I met him at City Hall and he gave me the keys to the city and the [unintelligible] and I came down. I told him I was the representative of the mayor to present the key to the city to Abernathy. But the problem was that Abernathy hadn't arrived yet. This was at 3:00 and he was supposed to be there at 3:00 but his plane was delayed. There was a choir there from Martin Luther King, Sr.'s church in Ohio. They had them sing for a while. And finally, the chairman of this thing said, "I [unintelligible] come down to present the key to 28:00the city to Abernathy." He said to me, "Will you talk, will you speak and keep speaking till Abernathy arrives." It was this open-ended thing. I told him, I said I would speak for the mayor. I was supposed to present the key to the city to Abernathy and the mayor had a cold. They all laughed at that. It was the toughest speech I had to make. I was glad when I heard these sirens saying that Abernathy had arrived. Then I did what I was supposed to, present the keys to the city and so on. Then they were handing out notices that said Stokely Carmichael is going to speak at a protest meeting the next night. They were protesting against some police brutality. That was the night the rioting broke out, at 28th or 26th and Greenwood. So I got a call from my I just appointed 29:00Eugene Robinson who was a black civil rights militant leader, then I talked him into I was impressed by him because he was a very articulate speaker. I hadn't met him so I was finally introduced me to. He came over and I offered him a job as associate director of the Human Relations Commission. He said, "I can't take this job because my constituency will think I sold out to the administration." I said, "Well, look Gene, I want to ask you something seriously. How do you think you can help your people most? By yelling from the outside or coming in as an associate and working from the inside?" That's when he decided to become my 30:00associate. I gave him all the leeway he needed. As a matter of fact, we were called down once a few months after he started, he working for me to the black students had sat in the president's office at the University of Louisville. I sent Gene down there to see what he can do. We were sitting on the steps of the administration building on the day when they were supposed to have their commencement exercises at the University of Louisville.

END OF SIDE A

START OF SIDE B

MP: the newspapers the next morning showed Gene Robinson with the August strikers. As a matter of fact, one of the guys, he's a professor at U of L now.

TK: Yeah, Blaine Hudson.

MP: He was there. Anyway, so Gene struck a deal with these strikers to say that they can demonstrate on the steps of this administration building until 3:00, when the commencement service was supposed to start. And then they would quietly go down and let the commencement exercises proceed. One of them said hell now, we don't want to go down that way. But anyway, the next day I had a call from [unintelligible] Miller, the mayor's assistant. He said the mayor's raving mad this morning. I said, "You tell the mayor to cool down because he's lucky to have a city to be [unintelligible] in." Then another time, around that time they 32:00were going to have a protest, I called the civil rights leaders together and asked them not to do anything to provoke violence. They said, "Well, we won't say anything, but let the mayor speak to us." The mayor was going to speak to them. I said, "Well, how about the chief of police?" He said hell, he wasn't going to get up there to be shot at. So the upshot was that Gene Robinson spoke to them. When he came there, he was handed a manifesto which they wanted him to read. Of course, he had to read it. Making all these harsh demands on the city. That was all plastered in the papers the next day. Again, the mayor was bad. He refused a lot of the trouble.

Well anyway, getting back to the riots. I went down since the riots started 33:00[unintelligible] director of the Human Relations Commission. Went down to the chief of police's office, which was the command center, the mayor was there, the county judge was there. Gene was down among the rioters. Gene, after things started to cool down a little bit, and then they started getting more tense because they started to arrest some of the demonstrators down there. They were in the county jail. And Gene called me and said there are rumors spreading here and raising tensions. They're beating the hell out of these people who have been demonstrating or rioting down there. So I said I'll look into it. So I went down 34:00to the county [unintelligible] which was downstairs from the police station. And one of my teams were there. I told you about the teams. It so happened that some of the most conservative clergymen were there. There was the pastor of the Walnut Street Baptist Church, for example, and others. So I said to them, "How are things here?" Because the rumor was they were being beating up. They said, "Everything [unintelligible] the officials are acting with great restraint and taking a lot of abuse. It wasn't true that they were beating them up." I said, "Will you come on TV?" And I arranged a quick press conference for these four clergymen to go on TV.

TK: Were they white or black ministers? The clergymen who were at the jail, were 35:00they white or black?

MP: There's one black and the pastor of the Walnut Street Baptist Church. The very most conservative ones. The people who had creditability with the white community. So I put them on. Then, I didn't get home that morning until about 4:00 in the morning, then I had a call from Fred Wiche at the time. I don't know if you've ever heard of Fred Wiche.

TK: Was he a newspaper man?

MP: He was on WHAS. The last years of his life he did a garden show for them. But he was just a newspaper man then, just a reporter. He came at 4:00 in the morning to interview me. Anyway, we had things worked out to where by Wednesday things had calmed down. We arranged for some of the blacks to police themselves 36:00and so on. Oh, I must tell you. The first night of the riots, after I took care of this matter of the rumors of them being beaten up, Gene called again and said, "Do you think you can get them to pull out the police from the area?" Because they were also contributing to the tension. So I had to argue with the mayor and county judge. By that time the National Guard was coming in. I argued, "Look, the National Guard is going to coming in, so you can pull off the police officers." One of them had been hit by a brick and was bleeding and so on. So I finally convinced them to reduce tensions, which they pulled the police out and left the National Guard around the fringe. There were a lot of things like that. 37:00Anyway, by Wednesday, we got things quieted down. And then on Thursday morning this little Gross boy, the fourteen year old black boy, was killed by the police for looting. He had a couple of cases of Coca-Cola or something. I went down and as I told you, I spoke with the mother and finally got her to make an appeal for calm.

TK: Were you, when you were with the Human Relations Commission, involved with the whole Black Six trial and conspiracy?

MP: Oh yes, Sam Hawkins as well as the six people who were being charged, Sam used to come to our office every morning before the trial started to get some 38:00comfort and so on. We were very closely involved in that.

TK: Did you get involved in supporting the defense?

MP: Yes the defense, the six people who were accused of conspiracy. Mrs. [Ruth] Bryant, I can't remember the names of them all.

TK: I interviewed Mrs. Bryant. I know this is going backwards a little bit but we only mentioned open housing briefly and I'd like to go back and talk about that a little more. How did you get interested or how did that issue arise?

MP: The issue arose when the blacks started making demands for being served in 39:00stores and being served in the restaurants and so on. That all came along with the deal. Occupancy, then the open housing thing. The other legislation passed that I think we had the hardest time with was public housing.

TK: Why was housing such a hard issue? Why do you think that that was harder than the restaurants?

MP: Because of the segregation. To go a little further, when the busing crises occurred, I as chairman of the Human Relations Commission, there was Mrs. Spalding, one of the leaders of the SOS [Save Our Schools], and Mrs. Ruffra, one 40:00of the leaders, she was on the school board. They said they weren't racist. They were all for integrating school but based on where the people lived. I said, "All right, you're not racist, you believe that there should be a natural integration of schools and there shouldn't have to be any busing to schools. All right, I can meet, sit down with us and see how you can help us get integrated housing. Because that's going to be the basis for. . " So when I left in 1977, there's an article in there, the response was I was a racist because I told them 41:00they ought to work for integrated housing.

TK: Oh really? Did you participate in any of the marches or anything like that around open housing?

MP: I didn't participate in the marches, as such, down in the South End. But I worked behind the scenes. I worked for legislation and so on.

TK: What did you do?

MP: Many things. We worked on committees, trying to get them to work with the alderman board. Or trying to get them to pass the legislation for open housing and so on.

TK: What finally convinced them?

MP: Actually, Republicans were the majority of the Board of Aldermen. Then the Democrats were maybe more amenable to passing legislation.

TK: I know that there were occasionally public forums where different people would speak. And also radio programs. Were you involved in any of those?

MP: Oh yes, many.

TK: What did you do in those? Could you describe it to me?

MP: I spoke at a lot of churches about it. WHAS still has tapes of it, I guess. I spoke at a couple of services at the Beargrass Christian Church, for example. Then I was on the talk shows, on various talk shows, which we discussed these things. And I spoke many times, numerous times I spoke with different organizations, churches and so on.

TK: How did the audience react when you were speaking?

MP: I used to get a lot of heckling. It all depended on the audience. If it was a sympathetic audience. But if it wasn't a sympathetic audience, I was heckled.

TK: Did you ever get any reaction, you know, letters to your home or phone calls to your home, anything like that?

MP: Oh, yes.

TK: Could you tell me about that?

MP: I was on a death list, [unintelligible] the Ku Klux Klan people said I'd be killed. I had phone calls that my house was going to be bombed. As a matter of fact, I had police sitting in my driveway because of the threats that were made. I remember once I was on a radio show, or a television show or something, and 44:00the moderator said something about Anne Braden being a Communist. I said, "If Anne Braden is a Communist, I've never seen her card. So I don't know." So when I came home, my wife said there was a nasty phone call from someone who said if Dr. Perley doesn't know that Anne Braden is a Communist, he's dumber than I think he was. As a matter of fact, during the riots, some of the militants, including Anne Braden, came to protest at City Hall. They had to lock the doors at City Hall. I went up to talk to them. The [unintelligible] wouldn't recognize 45:00Anne Braden's press card. She represented some publication. So I said I'll see. And I took her down into the jail to see for herself how they were being treated.

TK: So you gave some of the talks at open housing. You mentioned your wife a couple times. What was her name?

MP: Her name is May E. Perley. She's long since dead. But she used to be the leading reviewer for the Courier-Journal and the Louisville Times. She got all the best books that she reviewed. I've got a lot of first editions. Poems, and 46:00all those best books were sent to her.

TK: Did she get involved in events like you did?

MP: No. She was a member of the board of the Urban League as a matter of fact, she was English. And she read the book that was a best seller. And when we came to Louisville she was put on the original board of the ACLU. She came to one of our early meetings and Charlie Steele, who was director of the ACLU, reported about black soldiers from Fort Knox being beaten up by police walking around Walnut Street or something. So she was shocked by that. But anyway, after 47:00Steele's report, they all said that's too bad, some of them, and so they were ready to move on to something else. And she said, "Stop, wait a minute. Aren't you going to do something about this?" So they reconsidered and they decided they would go to Mayor [Charles] Farnsley, who was a very creative mayor of the city. So they went to she and Wilson Wyatt and someone else went to see Mayor Farnsley. And Farnsley said that he would get a grant from the Ford Foundation or something to set up a chair, or teach sensitivity training for police officers around the South at the University of Louisville. That became the 48:00Southern Police Institute, which is still at the University of Louisville. She was really responsible for that. Originally, it was set up for sensitivity training. That was what the original grant was made to. To set up the Southern Police Institute, I think it was called.

TK: That's really interesting. So you moved here in 1946. What was Louisville like when you moved here in terms of race relations and religious relations?

MP: They had the usual racial problems like the South. And that was accepted, the fact that blacks were to be segregated. A black woman, no matter how [unintelligible] she was, couldn't go into any of the stores down on 4th Street to try on dresses, stores like Stewart's. They're no longer in existence here. 49:00But they couldn't try on clothes.

Of course they couldn't go into any restaurants. As a matter of fact, I'll tell you something about how the Seelbach Hotel was integrated. The Urban League used to have to have their annual dinner meetings at Chestnut Street YMCA. That was the black YMCA. It was the only place where you can have mixed groups. The Urban League consisted of blacks and whites and members of the board. So one year, there was a member of the board by the name of Paul Tafel. Paul said, "Why can't we have these dinners at the Seelbach Hotel?" They said, "We'll see what 50:00happens." He said, "I'm willing to go down with the committee and see if we can't get the hotel to accept this mixed group for the annual dinner of the Urban League." So we went down with my wife and someone else. Of course, the manager said, "Well, you can have it." But he asked an outrageous price at a time when you were paying about two or three dollars for dinner. He wanted seven or eight dollars. It was an outrageous price. So Tafel said, "All right, I'll pay the difference." He was a wealthy man. And he paid the difference and that's how we integrated the Seelbach Hotel.

TK: So you were involved in the Urban League as well?

MP: My wife was, I wasn't. I worked with them. I worked with Louis Coleman and 51:00Arthur Walters, who was the director of the Urban League. But I wasn't on the board or anything like that.

TK: Back in the years after you just moved here, say about the forties. I want to ask about the late forties, early fifties, your first few years here. Were you involved in any other organizations or anything like that? You or your wife?

MP: It's hard to remember back then. But I was certainly involved in organizations which worked for social improvement, social betterment. I wasn't involved in the Metro United Way or things like that. But there were organizations that I was involved with, yes.

TK: Were you ever involved in the National Council for Christians and Jews?

MP: Yes.

TK: What kinds of things did they do? I've heard of that.

MP: Nothing much. I mean, as far as the race relations were concerned. They're a very respectable organization. But I was one of the founders of the Kentucky Interfaith Community, which is still. . .

TK: What is that?

MP: Kentucky Interfaith Community was made up of representatives of the major denominations Catholics, Protestants, Jews and all the churches. That was founded around 1970. As a matter of fact, I was the first chairman on it.

TK: So we talked about open housing and open accommodations. After open housing, what were the next issues? What were the next problems or issues you got 53:00involved with after open housing?

MP: The big issue was integration of schools.

TK: The busing, you mean?

MP: The court-ordered busing and so on. We took a very active part in that. Trying to lay the groundwork for the peaceful acceptance of the court-ordered busing and so on.

TK: How did you try to do that? How did you lay that groundwork?

MP: We had groups of people that we assembled. Groups from the Chamber of Commerce, some from the Junior League, a vast crosssection of organizations. We met regularly and we tried to it was the hardest thing even trying to hit upon a 54:00name. But finally we called it the Task Force for Peaceful Desegregation. We couldn't use integration because that was a bad word. It had to be desegregation. I remember we had signs, cards on the bumper stickers that said "Nobody wins when you lose your cool." I remember that slogan. We met, I spoke many times, we spoke to a lot of organizations. Some were hostile and some were trying to lay the groundwork for peaceful acceptance of the court-ordered busing.

TK: Could you describe for me the events, the beginning of busing?

MP: Yes, there was a lot of disturbances and profound opposition to the busing. I remember the first day, bricks and wood and stuff were thrown at the buses of the Fairdale High School. So I went out there on the second day to find out what was going to happen. When I got there Bob Winlock, he was a reporter for Channel 32. Bob said to me, "What about Judge [James] Gordon had ordered that no one was 56:00to come closer than a hundred yards to the entrance of any school. What about Judge Gordon's order?" The Jefferson County police chief was there, Russ McDaniel, and I spoke to him, I said, "What about all these people crowding against the sidewalks here and so on, so close to the entrance of the school." He said about the judge's order, "I don't know of any judge except Judge [County Judge Todd] Hollenbach. That's the order I follow." He wouldn't do a thing about it. Then when the kids came out, there was a lot of emotion. They threw stuff. I was hit with wood. They threw bricks and everything at those buses. You could 57:00feel the tension. When I got back to my office, I got a call from Barbara Hoppin, who was Judge Hollenbach's assistant, and she said, "Judge Hollenbach's furious. The chief of police came back and told him how you spoke to him and he's furious." I said, "Well, you tell the judge that he may be furious but the situation, the electricity in the air is such that before the night's over, it's going to be a lot of violence and he's going to have to call in the National Guard." And sure enough, they did. Over in Valley Station. He called in the National Guard.

Then I testified before the [U.S.] Senate Judiciary Committee after these riots, 58:00when they were trying to determine what happened, why it happened. I remember there was a young senator from Maryland, Senator Joe Biden. He was just a young senator then. He was very nice to me. And Father Marmion. We testified together. And I had criticized the mayor and the county judge and the governor for not supporting the court-ordered busing. That was responsible for the rioting and so on. They didn't like that.

TK: You were here during the original desegregation of the schools in 1956. So what was that like?

MP: In '56? In Louisville schools?

TK: Right, just Louisville schools.

MP: I worked with [Superintendent Omer] Carmichael. We had meetings and we discussed those things. I don't remember the details now. I remember a lot about the court-ordered busing and getting ready for it in 1975.

TK: Why do you think it was so peaceful in 1956 and so violent in 1976?

MP: Because there's no busing to integrate schools. They did a certain amount of integrating but there was no court-ordered busing. And the city was a little more accepting. People who opposed it were able to flee to the county.

TK: The other area I'd like to ask a little bit more detail, although obviously, you've talked about it already, is the Human Relations Commission. How exactly you got involved in it and what exactly your duties were.

MP: The Human Relations Commission was established by an ordinance, a city and county ordinance. It consisted of twentyone members which were appointed by the mayor and the county judge. They were the bosses. And then Mansir Tydings

END OF SIDE B, TAPE I

START OF TAPE II

MP: Mansir Tydings was the first director. We had the predecessor, the mayor's 61:00Advisory Committee on Human Relations but we felt that it didn't really have any authority. That one had to be established by law. So that's when they finally established the Louisville and Jefferson County Human Relations Commission. So when Mansir Tydings was director of it and this is during the period when we were pushing for open housing legislation Louisville at that time, about '66 or '67, was trying to be designated as an all American city, which would mean that it would get federal funds and so on. Then at that time there was a struggle going on for open housing legislation. Mansir Tydings was quoted as saying, "He 62:00doesn't see how Louisville can be named an AllAmerican city if it doesn't have open housing legislation." Well, Louisville wasn't named. The mayor and the county judge blamed Mansir Tydings. They wanted that and they didn't get it. So they wanted the commission to fire Mansir Tydings. Well, according to the ordinances of law, the commissioners elect the director, subject to the approval of the mayor and county judge. Then the city and county paid for it. They wanted the commission to fire Mansir Tydings because of this. But they wouldn't fire 63:00him. So there was an impasse between the mayor, county judge and the commission. The newspapers were running editorials almost daily saying the mayor and the county judge and the commission ought to get together because the racial situation is boiling and its liable to erupt any time. They ought to get together and name but there was an impasse. Nothing could be done because of this conflict between the public officials and the commission. Then the elections were in November of 1967. The day after the elections the mayor and 64:00county judge cut off the salary of Mansir Tydings as the director of the Human Relations Commission. Well, he couldn't stay on without a salary so he left. Then there was period for several months whereby the people the mayor and the county judge wanted to be named as the director were not acceptable to the commissioners. The commissioners, what they wanted to name as the director wasn't accepted by the mayor and county judge. So there was an impasse. Then the papers kept having editorials on segregation. The administration and the commission ought to get together and name a strong director for the Human Relations Commission because the situation is boiling and before it erupts, it's a very bad situation. Well, they couldn't get together.

So I was having lunch with Monsignor Horrigan sometime early in March of '68. Horrigan was chairman of the Human Relations Commission. I said to Monsignor Horrigan, "You know, you seem to have so much trouble getting together with the mayor and county judge in filling this position. I feel like offering myself, taking the job myself." So a funny smile came over Horrigan's face and he said, "Very interesting." And 3:00 that afternoon he said he called me, he said he spoke to the mayor and county judge Marlow Cook was the county judge, [Kenneth] Schmied was the mayor he said they agreed this would solve our problem if Dr. 66:00Perley would take the job. We'll direct him for it. So that's how I became the director of the Human Relations Commission. I started work on April 1, 1968, four days before Martin Luther King was assassinated. That's the story of that.

TK: What were your main responsibilities in that job?

MP: Main responsibilities, of course, were pushing, trying to improve race relations in the city. That was the overall responsibility. Then legislation, pushing to get the city council to by that time they had already passed the open housing legislation. Then part of our responsibility was to enforce the laws. We had complaints. People would complain of discrimination. Then we would have hearings. We had powers of subpoena and so on. We tried to enforce the laws. As 67:00a matter of fact, one of the reasons I left in 1977, by that time it became a purely legal sort of thing. All the creative part of it, pushing for all these things didn't exist so much. So it was more a job for a lawyer than anything.

TK: How did the Human Relations Commission get along with the main civil rights leaders?

MP: The state commission on human rights at first pushed for the city in 1961 to establish the Human Relations Commission by law. After we were established and 68:00Mansir Tydings became the director, the Human Relations Commission was always in the spotlight. When I was there, too. And Galen Martin didn't like that so much. He felt all the action was in Louisville and they were in Frankfort. So they decided I guess it was when I was director they moved their offices up to Louisville. That's where the action was. Then there was a certain kind of overlapping in a sense, who's responsible for what. For some reason or another we got all the publicity. We were doing these creative things. We had a joint project, for example. We wanted to, after the open housing legislation had 69:00passed, we wanted to check whether blacks and whites had equal access to these homes and apartments and so on. So we formed team consisting of this was a joint project teams consisting of black and whites of similar situations to apply for housing when a house was for sale and see if there were any differences in the way they were treated. Well, the figures weren't too [unintelligible]. A certain amount of discrimination existed, of course. But then we had to issue a statement on the results of our test. I think at the time, I don't remember the 70:00figures, but it was something like in 67% of the cases there was no discrimination, or something like that. So I felt, Galen Martin wanted [unintelligible] negative statements condemning city and county for not, for their existence of discrimination in housing. I felt we ought to think that we are gratified to see that a certain percentage of people were not experiencing discrimination. However, we still have a long way to go. I mean, that was my approach and his approach was condemning. The thing came up during schools, the schools were always criticizing. Not seeing the [unintelligible] had been made.

TK: Did you work closely with SCLC or the NAACP or any of those?

MP: Yes, I worked very closely with the NAACP and Black Workers Coalition and the Urban League and all the agencies here.

TK: What were the most important black organizations by that time? In the late sixties and early seventies?

MP: The most important thing, there was the NAACP. There was the Urban League. There was the Black Workers Coalition and the Black Students Union at the university. We worked with them.

TK: Looking at your time on the Human Relations Commission, what do you think was your biggest success?

MP: It's a hard question to answer. I think the biggest success was the 72:00acceptance of the legislation, begrudgingly at times. And seeing the integration of schools through the court-ordered busing. It's hard to just pinpoint anything. But generally speaking, I think that there's a great improvement in the racial situation. We still have a long way to go.

TK: What I'd like to do is ask a slightly different kind of question, and that is a question that is a more general, reflective questions. One thing we haven't talked about very much is you were still at your congregation through much of your activity. Did you stop

MP: No, I resigned from the congregation in 1968. But I started to work for the commission on April 1, 1968. But I worked for the congregation until June of 73:001968. I handled both [unintelligible] because I had a confirmation [unintelligible] and so on. But after July 1, 1968, I worked just for the Human Relations Commission.

TK: Well, before you left your position, what did your congregation think of your involvement in the movement?

MP: I spoke at a service why I resigned from the congregation. There was a big report in the newspaper. I said, you know, many of the congregation accepted my status on civil rights but they weren't very happy with my antiVietnam War 74:00activities. That was treason. They weren't very happy with that.

TK: What kind of activities against the war did you get involved with?

MP: I was the state chairman of the Negotiation Now Movement. I went to Washington to lobby Congressmen and Senators. As a matter of fact, the Negotiation Now Organization knew that I was very friendly with John Sherman Cooper and on one occasion, when we went to do lobbying against the war in Vietnam, if Cooper would host and invite his fellow senators to a breakfast on 75:00the Vietnam Negotiation Now concept. He got a pretty good response. The governor was there and others. Eighteen or nineteen senators attended that breakfast. . .So that I spoke out quite often against the war in Vietnam. I felt it was immoral and unjustified and so on.

TK: Did anyone from your congregation get involved in either the civil rights movement of the antiwar movement?

MP: Oh yes, a number of them. I influenced quite a number of them in the antiwar movement and the civil rights and so on. There was one one of the woman, Joan Oldsmith, she was here recently, leading a workshop on leadership. She's got a book here. . .

TK: One thing I wanted to ask, in general, what role did the Jewish community play in the movement. Was there a lot of participation from the Jewish community?

MP: Not as a community as I say, I got my congregation to pass resolutions in support of open housing legislation, civil rights legislation. It was more individuals than a community. They were involved with the Council on Religion and Race. They supported that. Sent representatives like [unintelligible]

TK: Yeah, I need to look her up. Whatever happened to the Council on Religion and Race?

MP: After a while it just went out of existence. Now there's the Interfaith 78:00Community, which more or less took its place.

TK: Does it do a lot of the same sort of things?

MP: Not so much an emphasis on race. But on justice and so on.

TK: What I like to usually do is just finish with very general questions about your perspectives or your opinions on the Louisville movement. One question I always like to ask people is when did the civil rights movement start in Louisville?

MP: It's hard to pinpoint. The civil rights movement, as such, I suppose started in the early 1950s. There were always blacks that were striving for acceptance 79:00and freedom and so on, liberties. I guess the struggle for freedom started with the Emancipation Proclamation, I guess.

TK: When would you say the civil rights movement in Louisville ended?

MP: It hasn't ended yet.

TK: That's what everybody says. I ask everybody that question and everybody gives the same answer. Another question I have is do you think the movement here was influenced in any way by movements in other places?

MP: Oh yes. What was happening in the marches with Martin Luther King and so on. They were influenced quite a bit.

TK: It sounds like you, personally, have a lot of connection with things going 80:00on nationally. You mentioned the Chicago conference

MP: I didn't go that there. But I was associated with Negotiation Now is a

TK: National?

MP: The antiVietnam movement. As a matter of fact, I take credit for the conversion of [unintelligible] and Morgan. When he was chairman of the Republican National Committee, from a hawk to a dove. He changed his attitude towards there was a press conference and I called him. During his first announcement, he said he was against the war in Vietnam. That was big news.

TK: How do you think the movement changed over time in Louisville?

MP: Yes, it constantly evolved.

TK: Can you think of any particularly important turning points, when things changed?

MP: One turning point was the court-ordered busing, of course. Another was the passing of open housing legislation. Things like that.

TK: Now you mentioned some organizations and people on the way, but I just want to ask who do you think are some of the most important leaders? Some of the most important people that I need to be mentioning in my book?

MP: You mean in civil rights?

TK: Yeah.

MP: Of course, there's Monsignor Horrigan. Lyman Johnson, Arthur Walters.

TK: I interviewed him already. I interviewed Mr. Walters. In your opinion, 82:00what's the most successful strategy that people used in the Louisville movement? What got the most done?

MP: I think making the most noise. Calling attention to the injustices and so on. Calling for improvements in legislation and things like that.

TK: Were there any problems or weaknesses in the local movement?

MP: Of course, there were problems and weaknesses. I can't

TK: You can't think of any? And the last question I always, well, the second to last question I always ask people is what makes the Louisville civil rights story interesting to you? What makes it unique or different than other places?

MP: For one thing, Louisville's situation as a border state between North and South makes that story interesting. [unintelligible] in the context of the civil rights movement and what the United States. . .

TK: I think that border issue is very interesting. In fact, the issue of being on the border is very interesting. In fact, it's the main reason why I'm writing the book, because no one has really talked about that. Lastly, is there anybody you think I should make sure to interview? Anybody that you can think of?

MP: I don't know who you've interviewed and so on. But I always had a great admiration as a leader was Monsignor Horrigan.

TK: Yeah, I really want to get a hold of him. Especially from the religious angle. Especially anyone you can think of who was involved in religion in the movement, because that's where I have the weakest

MP: I've been out of touch for so many years now. It's hard to recall. As I said, I mentioned people like Art Walters, who you said you've interviewed or you're going to interview. .

TK: Is Kenneth Schmied still around?

MP: No, he's been dead.

TK: Yeah, I thought I would have heard of him.

MP: No, Marlow Cook, they're all dead. [former County Judge and U.S. Senator Marlow Cook was still living in 2002, when this transcript was edited.]

TK: Because the city government people, I don't really have any of them. Well, 85:00if you can think of anyone I'll leave my phone number with you. If you can think of anyone.

MP: There's so many, I guess. So many are dead.

TK: Is there anything we need to talk about that we haven't talked about.

MP: There's so much I can talk about.

TK: Yeah, it's getting kind of late, I didn't want to keep you too long.

END OF TAPE II

END OF INTERVIEW