Interview with Lee Thomas, April 10, 2000

START TAPE 1, SIDE A

Tracy K'Meyer: This is an interview with Lee Thomas by Tracy K'Meyer conducted on Monday April 10, 2000. All right where I'd like to start is just very basic factual information, as you told me you weren't born in Louisville, could you tell when and where you were born?

Lee Thomas: I was born May 27, 1926 in Seattle, Washington. I was raised in Chicago and I moved here in 1954.

TK: Raised in Chicago in 1954 so you would have been 18, no 28--I missed a decade. Raised in Chicago, moved here in 1954. What brought you to Louisville?

LT: Job.

TK: What kind of job did you have?

LT: Why don't I go through the routine.

TK: OK.

LT: I was a foot soldier, a combat infantry World War II. I was fed all this 1:00hate literature about the Japanese so we would kill. I was a private, fought my way across ( ) Phillipine Islands as a combat infantry private and it was messy and then I was on a LCM, ( ) craft manpower, that's one of these boats with the big ( ) plate on the front ( ). I'd already made one of those operations, I was on one of those heading North for the invasion of Japan when the bombs dropped and I rejoiced with everybody. Went into Yokahama Harbor peacefully and they put us on a train. The train went to Hiroshima. So I saw it flat.

TK: Right away, yeah.

LT: Unfortunately I was only there a couple of hours so I didn't get too awful much radiation although I don't let them take x-rays of my teeth every time I 2:00turn around. When we got to our occupation duty another hour and a half down the track, they put me in charge of the pay roll for the Japanese working on the base. They weren't animals, I made friends, I can remember one of those old geezers, four o'clock in the morning I was headed home, he came out to wish me well. You know just like you do. So I came home with two basic concerns: peace testimony and the race issue. Now--I graduated from engineering school at Yale and went to work for ( ) in Chicago, its now ( ) at that time it was ( ). I got my CPA going night school and I was traveling too much and my dad had started a 3:00company here in Louisville called American Saw and Tool Company and offered me a job as about what I could make elsewhere. He made a deal with me, he said, if you take bad advice from me you're the fool not me and, convinced me that I could work with him. I was already a supervisor for Tusch so I'd had a pretty good start already. When I came to Louisville, again I had two concerns. We got rid of the clutch plate (boons) for tanks we don't need that kind of business.

TK: Your company you mean.

LT: Yeah, sure. We had committed ourselves to integrating the shops. The 4:00integration of American Saw and Tool Company made in Jackson was classic. All of the material handlers were black and all the production workers were white. One day, one of the material handlers put his foot in the power mower and was going to be off for a while and the plant superintendent who knew what we wanted to do came to me and he said I've got a neighbor who needs a job awful bad what do you say I bring him in. He had a twinkle in his eye, well this guy been in for about ten minutes and the union committee jumped in and said, you can't do this Bill, you can't put a white man in a black man's job, you're not going to put a black man in a white man job. One of the others on the committee said hey you just said too much. He said, "I don't know that I did." We knew that the union hierarchy was out of town, Bill said, "why don't you just get out of the union 5:00hall and talk about this a while and see you Monday morning." Well those people came back Monday morning and said OK lets integrate the place, they did it I didn't.

TK: Really, what union was this?

LT: Machinists.

TK: Machinists.

LT: But they didn't have the leadership. You see the leadership are very segregated, the whole union was segregated. They did it--they were able to do because the union hierarchy wasn't there.

TK: So it's just the rank and file guys.

LT: The rank and file did it.

TK: That's interesting.

LT: Wonderful. You know--people knew each other. Do you remember when we had the riots here.

TK: '68, I wasn't here but I read about it.

LT: Yeah. I offered people, if your're afraid to go home come stay with me you know. This kind of stuff. We had, we looked and found cots so that people could 6:00stay over night if they wanted to. We had compassion for one another.

TK: Can I ask a quick question about that. When you first came down and you got the company, your job with your father's company, did your father share your ideas?

LT: This is interesting. There were two people that were important to that company when I came, Gene Cowly who was at the old American Elevator Company, was there when dad first came and my dad. Neither one were antagonistic toward my attitudes but they didn't agree with them, but they respected them. Both were men of outstanding integrity and they realized you approach this idea of 7:00integrity from a little different position sometimes and they both know about my war experience and that gave me legitimacy. So they both went along, no question about that, Gene Cowly, ninety years old today, ninety years old he'll be ninety one in May and he and I are still the best of friends. Now they were wonderfully supportive really so was everybody else in the place.

TK: So the workers were supportive as well?

LT: You see--this is something a lot of people don't realize but if you have a reputation for integrity in business the world will beat a path to your door. Now, I had a lot of trouble in Louisville and I'm going to get into that but it also enabled me to become a very wealthy man.

TK: Because you're a good businessman too.

LT: Because of the success of the business. I became a CEO in 1962 my dad started spending his time at Thomas Industries. At that time the company was doing seven million dollars. When the company was sold out from under us in a hostile situation where we got the white knight, it was doing over $450 million. It was one of the fortune 75 hundred.

TK: So it got sold, did you move to Thomas Industries?

LT: No.

TK: We're jumping ahead of ourselves.

LT: I didn't know that was interesting. Here I am out because everybody loyal to me and the new owners couldn't handle that so I walking down the street and Bernard Trailor, Public Bank he said Lee you're low on the snakes belly, something like that. He said I've got an office for you can write your own 9:00lease. I wrote a competitive lease because I didn't want to do business for this guy forever. But anyway he befriended me OK, and I had a little office in the Republic Bank downtown. Then Kenny Hirsh from Paramount Foods, he was the CEO of Paramount Foods, he died a young man, heart problems. He was the director of ( ) American he brought Bob Taylor over to see me and got me started teaching. That was--about ten years ago I guess. I taught over at your place for a little while but they ran out of money for ( ) and time for full time faculty. Of course they didn't realize I was contributing more to the college than they were paying my damn self-but the ( ). So I moved over here and frankly I've been much happier 10:00here because I team teach here instead of having a class of my own and I'm much better at that. I don't know what to expect of students, I'm not a teacher. I do shared experiences and I relate well to people.

TK: They're more flexible over here.

LT: I have a lot more fun over here. But anyway then the other thing was I started looking for a business to buy and I bought Universal Woods. I, about two thirds of my time and about a third of my time into Universal Woods. And there was a little racial believe it or not. There's a white backlash, I talked in class, I said we had a situation here a couple of months ago. Our chief financial officer left us--tag along, do you know what I mean by tag along?

TK: No.

LT: ( ) gets a job someplace else and tags along (laughs)

TK: I'd know the situation hadn't heard that name for it.

LT: Anyway he's a big shot at Vermont American, he's a ( ) vice president for Vermont American and his wife was our chief financial officer at Universal Woods. He got a job down in South Carolina with them, he's still with Vermont American and it's a good thing. So anyway we had two applicants that seemed satisfactory. One had a lot of specific experience and could step right in and do the job quickly, so we moved our accountant up to the chief financial desk, she's doing beautiful. It was the accounting job that we don't own and the other ones ( ) . Had a college degree but did not have particular good and specific experience, now we'd never had a black in the office in the history of that company and we had African Americans in the shop and I said look, it may take this woman a little longer, but she's got the intelligence. Do I have a right to hire her in preference to the white person in an effort to achieve integration. 12:00People here don't think so, other students don't think so.

TK: Well a lot of students--these days, yeah. So who did you hire?

LT: Oh sure I hired the black, African American because when somebody in the shop has a problem we want to hear about it and African Americans are a lot easier for them to talk to. So kids keep talking about maximizing shareholder wealth, I thought that the African American would come closer to doing that than the white.

TK: That's interesting. ( ) a counter part to the earlier stuff. Clarify what year or about what year, because you said that you got here in '54 but about how long after that was--when you talk about how you integrated the shop?

LT: Maybe a year, a year and a half.

TK: So right away.

LT: Oh, yeah it was right soon.

TK: When you arrived in Louisville in 1954 what was your impression of race relations here?

LT: Better than Chicago.

TK: Really, how so?

LT: In Louisville it was much more--people were acquainted. You had these enclaves, where the African Americans were clustered, it was around Yale Avenue in the Highlands, ( ). People tended to work in environments a lot of domestic help and so on where they got personally acquainted. I'd say that they have a better relationship with people when you know them, that's not to say we didn't have segregation. We had more formal segregation than they had in Chicago, I'm 14:00just saying that relationships were better. When I first moved here the parks were segregated. The day after the parks integrated one of our people came to me and said can I plan a ball team? I said you better ask the manager, the guy just said sure(laughs). The busses were integrated, U of L's all white, and Municipal College is all black. When I first went into medical practice, the only hospital that would take black patients: Jewish, Red Cross but then Red Cross was substandard.

TK: Right, yeah and it was the--

LT: That was the black hospital.

TK: The black hospital.

LT: But the Jewish hospital would take a patient. You know where her practice was?

TK: No.

LT: She started out on West Broadway and she moved over to 23rd and Market.

TK: What's her name?

LT: Dr. Joan Thomas.

TK: Joan Thomas.

LT: She got her MD when she was thirty-seven years old after our kids were in school. U of L let her split the freshman year in medical school in half so she could take the afternoon courses when Margy was in nursery school, the morning courses when was in kindergarten and then they both went to school full time.

TK: So she started out practicing in the West End?

LT: Oh yeah she never practiced anywhere else.

TK: And then moved--what about her patients, so most of her patients were black then or..?

LT: About fifty-fifty. She was--most of her time was on Market Street where Portland's on one side and and ( ).

TK: Now, were you married when you got here?

LT: Oh yeah, we've been married for fifty-one years, well almost fifty-one.

TK: So does she share your peace and race emphasis as well?

LT: I went to a Quaker inter and district project, so when I came back from the 16:00war, I joined the Quaker, my family's not Quakers.

TK: OK, I was going to ask you that.

LT: I went to a Quaker intern industry project where we got jobs in the industry and then went to the union meetings and they had education from the union business agents and the personnel managers and learn something. But labor--because there was a lot of violence in the picket lines in those days. I met this young women on a Tuesday, that first weekend is Wallie Quaker had a farm on the back of the Delaware with two hay mouths--we sat on the deck of the Delaware talking about what we want to do with our lives spitting watermelon seeds. On Sunday night I took her in my arms and kissed her and asked her to marry me, I'd known her five days.

TK: Wow, you beat my husband and I, we knew each other three weeks. (laughs)

LT: That was almost--oh that was over fifty-one years ago, we had to wait a year to get married because she had to finish school. See, she was ahead of me 17:00because of the war.

TK: Had she always been Quaker or did she also convert.

LT: No, she went to Swarthmore, which is where she got the ( ) but we had determined at that time, that we had some concerns, we were not prepared to be tax refusers but we were going to make contributions to try to off set that. We shared a concern for race relations and for world peace and still do.

TK: Did you get involved with a Quaker meeting when you--was there a Quaker meeting in Louisville? No?

LT: Start it--our family started it, it was the first meeting for a neighborhood house and it was on First Street. There at where the Midas Muffler shop is now.

TK: The what shop?

LT: The Midas Muffler.

TK: OK.

LT: It moved to Portland you know.

TK: Is that where it is now?

LT: Yeah, its in Portland.

TK: How long did it take you to get it started?

LT: Well, there were some people that were meeting on a Sunday evening informally. So there were three or four people that were with us right away and neighborhood house provided us a room to worship in and we got the use of the play room downstairs so the kids could play down there after we had a little( ) reception. Now we have a meetinghouse at Bonair at Alameade and were running, I don't know probably about thirty-five people on Sunday.

TK: Well that's interesting. So what's the next thing you did, would you say after you integrated your shop and then the next step?

LT: OK, remember the Braden Case?

TK: I was going to ask you about it actually, yeah. I was going to ask you about it.

LT: In the White House, you've got all that background already doesn't you?

TK: Yeah.

LT: I went to New York, with Pat Malin.

TK: What was the name?

LT: Pat Malin.

TK: OK.

LT: Who was the head of the American Civil Liberties Union at the time. I couldn't really afford it but I gave him five hundred bucks to start the defense of the Braden's. I disagree with the Braden's ( ). We're on opposite sides of the pole, but the fact--there was a guy by the name of Pastor Nemor in Germany 20:00who said first they came after the Jews and then they came after the..

TK: Communists.

LT: The communists and then they came after--and I didn't do anything but then they came after me. I could see that coming as a Quaker and so we had to do something, this is strictly enlightened self-interest, no question about it. My sister's husband Scott Hamilton Jr. and a Board Member of my board and he was working with his dad and today Scott is a friend of mine.

TK: Had anyone known you had done this?

LT: Oh, sure. I don't go sneaking around, I was on the first board of the Kentucky Civil Liberties and the treasurer of it for many years until they put Anne Braden on the board and when they did that I said look this is not--as soon as you do that why you put somebody on the board whose commitment to civil liberties as a political orientation and that's not what its about unless we're going to protect the civil liberties of everybody whether you're talking the white supremacists or the radicals in the West End or anybody else, you've got to be even handed. I don't--no--he didn't let me in so that's why I left.

TK: Actually maybe I can ask you then a little bit about how was that founded, the local civil liberties union?

LT: I went to New York and got Pat Malin--

TK: That's how it was started?

LT: I put the initial money into that one too. That was small money and then we 22:00went out and raised some money, there was Pat Kirwin and Arthur Kling and Bill-- the guy from the Unitarian Church--Bob Westen and oh, heck yeah--( ) bus Broadway--

TK: Well I know Dr. Kimbrough, he's a little later, black doctor, Dr. Rabb?

LT: Maurice Rabb, a matter of fact to tell you another story. There had never been an African American on the professional staff at the Norton Hospital. This is quite a little later and got my dad to sponsor Maurice Rabb which he did and 23:00that was the first time ( ).

TK: Now he's passed away right?

LT: Well, he's been gone quite a white, his widow is still alive.

TK: Yeah, but she doesn't want to be interviewed.

LT: She does not.

TK: She feels she's too elderly so she doesn't want to.

LT: Then the other one of course is gone but it wasn't a doctor, he was a teacher.

TK: Lyman Johnson.

LT: He was on the board of it, those two were both on the board of professional civil liberties union.

TK: Johnson. Luckily other people interviewed Johnson a lot. So there are interviews with him, I mean I never did.

LT: Oh, there's lots of them, oh sure.

TK: So you were involved in that. Were you involved at all in the school integration situation.

LT: Friends meeting head was called SPARK.

TK: What's that mean?

LT: It was an organization that tried to get the parents working in the--on the PTA and the absentee school when the kids were bussed. In particularly after a kid had been in some difficulty in order to get that communication improved. That was sponsored by the Friends meeting, but I didn't have any involvement.

TK: Not you specifically.

LT: I was at a Friends meeting that was successful for a while and finally the school board decided that they should do it--that was great, save the union some money.

TK: So after the Wade case, Braden Case what's next? Oh you've got notes there.

LT: Yeah, back about 1958 or '59 I went on the Board of Lincoln Foundation and 25:00Sue Tidings was the executive director and his wife and she was Mary Paige Tidings--

TK: What's her name?

LT: Mary Paige Tidings, I don't know, she may be in a nursing home by this time, and she's very elderly.

TK: I'll look around.

LT: I'm not sure you can do it but, if you can she'd be wonderful. Anyway, after I was on that board for a year or two Mansur came to me and he said, this thing of the white folks doing for the black folks is all right but we have to go beyond that. Bring this mess together. And we've got to increase the 26:00responsibility that the black people have in this organization, we have to make it really integrated. Would you be the chair? Sure. So I became the chair and I was served a lawsuit.

TK: For what?

LT: Misappropriating endowment.

TK: How did that happen?

LT: Because we changed the orientation, we were not going to just provide -- It wasn't going to be just the white people providing scholarships for the black people. It was going to be people providing scholarships for people. This was something the old conservatives couldn't handle. Well, the lawyer, who was a 27:00member of the board who was gung-ho to prosecute this thing , dropped dead. And I think that maybe at least one other one thought that there was divine intervention, I think he is still running. It never came to pass. And Mansur continued to have a warm relationship with his widow, in spite of all of that. He was quite a guy.

TK: I wish I could have interviewed him.

LT: He was quite a guy.

TK: And involved in a lot.

LT: Oh, golly.

TK: What kind of things--

LT: How about , he had a chance ( ) from Leo Wiles family.

TK: I don't know that name. Leo Wile?

LT: One Saturday night, at about this time in the history of things, a black couple came into his, he had Leo's Hideaway Restaurant on East Chestnut St. where the Farmer's Market is now. It was a walk up place. Top quality fish and seafoods of all kinds. Johnny still laments the fact he could no longer go there and get the stuffed lobster. I mean it was upbeat. Anyway, Saturday night this black couple came in and Leo said look, and a table of white folks got up and angrily left with lots of noise. Leo went to the door and stood facing his 29:00customers and said, my friends, I there is some business I just don't need. And the next time we went in Lincoln' Emancipation Proclamation was on every table. That was the first integrated restaurant in Louisville.

TK: That's interesting. It's not around more , I take it.

LT: No, Leo died. The family, names, I don't know if I can remember his name before we are through or not. But his son-in-law is still around and his daughter. The last time I knew, they were. I'm not sure if his son-in-law is, but his daughter is.

END TAPE 1, SIDE A

START TAPE 1, SIDE B

TK: I saw your name associated with the mayor's committee, open accommodations--

LT: We started the human rights, relations commission, that's what you are looking at. Mansur was the first executive director. Bill Cowgill was mayor and he wanted a good chair, he said it has to be white and it has to be Republican. The ideal choice was a member of the board of the Lincoln Foundation by the name of Joe Wimsatt. If you haven't interviewed Joe, I hope you will.

TK: Wimsatt?

LT: He's still on the board of the Lincoln Foundation after all these years and very vigorous, you'll have fun talking to him.

TK: OK. That will be easy to find cause I can just call the Lincoln Foundation.

LT: He's just my age.A little on the side, about two and a half years ago I got 31:00sued for 380 million dollars along with Vermont American and the Machinist Union claiming racial and sexual harassment in 1970. The statue doesn't run because there is a conspiracy. Because Hugh Lee Thomas knew everybody on the human relations commission, of course I did. And you knew the judge and my lawyer and she's without consul so the court has to be very friendly and everything is very legal cause she has a son in law school who's doing this and getting an education big time. It was tried before John Heyburn, my old ( ) and he threw it 32:00out and it went on appeal in Cincinnati and they finally threw it out up there. Obviously I didn't, I didn't know anyone in Memphis and the human relations commission in Memphis was your logical appeal so it was spurious, but nonetheless it's interesting what can happen to you if you get involved in these things.

TK: Years later. Now how did the human relations commission, was that set by an ordinance or is this one of those fuzzy areas I can't quite ( )?

LT: I don't exactly remember all the ins and out, but Bill Cowgill was very much behind it as mayor. He takes the credit for it in everybody's mind. He was a ( ), a broad gay guy and I don't care what party you are, it doesn't make any difference cause this man was a statesman.

TK: So they set that up, were you actually on the commission?

LT: No, no, I'd have liked to have been but, no.

TK: What was its responsibilities, what was set up?

LT: It was set up to communicate problems and race relations basically now we got into general things they were not set to be enforced.

TK: Could you describe the open accommodations struggle for me a little bit in town from a white person's perspective? How did that get started and--

LTTL: I don't know much about--

TK: It was mostly a young people's thing, so--

LT: Well, the restaurant thing I'm more aware of.

TK: Go on and talk about that.

LT: We talked about Leo, Hassenour's was very late and there were some demonstrations over there and a lot of us wouldn't go eat there. Of course the Brown Hotel was segregated for a long, long time one of the last ones. Of 34:00course, they the Brown Foundation and all that stuff, he's a goodnik.

TK: It's interesting because everybody talks about it being one of the last places, so very reluctant.

LT: And very reluctant and he didn't treat his help all that well. There was a problem all the way around. The first time there was a private interracial dinner was the Urban League dinner at the Sealbach Hotel in the Ratskeller, I don't remember what year that was but of course I was there.

TK: Were you a member of the Urban League?

LT: Oh, no, I contributed to it, peanuts but you know--

TK: But you actually weren't ( )

LT: No, no.

TK: Were you involved in the march on Frankfort at all?

LT: No, but in 1962, I took my ten-year-old son and marched with Martin Luther King.

TK: Where?

LT: Here, through German Town and got the instructions as to how we were to behave through the lines, of course there more ( ) and marchers with no violence. It's an experience I'll remember all my life, my son will too.

TK: Was that the first time you'd ever marched in something?

LT: No, I went to Washington on the Viet Nam thing, I don't know whether before or after?

TK: That would have been after, after I would think.

LT: That was the ( ) coronation of Nixon.

TK: That was later.

LT: Let's talk about the Pendennis Club. I have forgotten what year it was but the Pendennis Club had a proposal for membership from Barry Bingham Jr. for Dan Byck. And Byck was Jewish. They turned him down. They'd never of course even talk to an African American, you couldn't bring -- Bill Cowgill's successor took an African American there to eat one time and got censored . That was Schmied. 37:00Kenny Schmied, was that his name?

TK: Yeah.

LT: When this happened a few of us resigned from the Pendennis Club. Maury Johnson came to us and said let's start the Jefferson Club. ( ) in one of the big bank buildings. In the top of the Bank Building. So, we started out with the board would be Maury Johnson, Woody Porter , Sam Weinerbach, and maybe Bernard Tragger, I'm not sure. And then filled it out with the mucky muck to make it successful, and started the Jefferson Club. Then Maury came to me and said 38:00wouldn't you like to play tennis with us at the Boat Club. I said sure, why don't I put you in for membership. I said sure, but you known where I'm coming from. Yeah, that's my problem. Well it wasn't, they turned me down , black balled me. So I inquired, my dad was a member at Owl Creek. My sisters were members, one of them members of Big Springs, Chief financial officer a member of Hunting Creek. People took the attitude that to ask was an imposition, so finally one day Ronnie Abrams and Jack Shapiro came to me, now this is here say, 39:00but they said, why don't you join Standard? Let's try Standard? I said let's see what happens. The way I heard it, of course one black ball and you're out, there were 13 blackballs. Dr. Oertner, Bucky Oertner, was the president of the club, called a board meeting and he said I don't give a damn how many black balls there are. I've known Lee Thomas for ten years and I trained Joan in Medical School, and if you don't take those two right now, I quit. So, ( ). I can say without fear of contradiction, for many years I was the Goy champion of Standard Country Club. You're laughing, you know the word Goy.

TK: Yes, yes.

LT: And you know it's something you call yourself, and don't call somebody else.

TK: I didn't even know there were that many country clubs in Louisville. I assume they were all white.

LT: At the Boat Club today, there are a couple of African Americans, I think they are spouses of white people. I don't know of any. There have been black members at Standard, Wade Houston was a member, before he went out of town.

TK: Where is Standard?

LT: Out 22. I think that there are black members at two or three other clubs. There are certainly no problems taking black guests to any of them except 41:00perhaps the Louisville Country Club.

TK: Now you said, you made a sort of half reference earlier in our conversation to some of your ideas causing you some trouble in Louisville.

LT: You see, it's strange. I'm admired because I have integrity, they know they can believe me when I say something. They know that the products manufactured will be honestly presented. All those things and race issue is a part of integrity. So it's made for a wonderful business experience, but, as the CEO of one of the largest businesses in Louisville, should I have been on a bank board? Sure, shouldn't I have been on the Chamber board? Finally the chamber was broke, 42:00they wanted $10,000 and I said you've got to get me if you are going to get the $10,000 . So, they put up with me for one term, but as soon as the term was up, I was out of there. They didn't want any part of me. I want to tell you about hiring Mr. Crumes, Alonzo Crumes. He might be one that you want to interview. Still very much alive. Lonie and I have a long history together. I'm a tournament bridge player, and in the early 60's, the games were held in the old Kentucky Hotel. There were couple of people drinking too much, and became unpleasant. So I was interested and complained about it. I was told that, that I 43:00play at the YMCA because you can't drink at the Y. In 1966, we had a national tournament here. Fifteen hundred players from all the atmosphere. Fourteen hundred of them black and me, my partner could not play in the ACBL.

TK: ACB?

LT: That's a white league and this was a black tournament and Mr. Crumes was my partner.

TK: So he is from here?

LT: Oh yeah, Cecil Ave. One of the really nice neighborhoods and a real neighborhood. Any way, Lonie was the first black machinist in Louisville. He 44:00worked for Naval Ordnance, which at that time was non- union. If you had had a union, he couldn't have been a machinist. After some years lost our regional sales manager and I went to Lonie, what do you think? He was willing to give it a try. So, he had a territory. His territory was north of Indianapolis until the Chicago guy came out and I hired the Detroit guy for north of Columbus and Ohio and the whole state of Kentucky. He worked with the Distributors, go out and call on users of cutting tools. His approach would be to in and save a problem 45:00then we would design a tool for you, because he knew how to do it. Then the distributor would take the order and stock the merchandise. In Indianapolis the distributor wouldn't make calls for me, he made them by himself make out the order ( ). Matt Pill didn't have that problem, but the largest user of cutting tools ( ) in the US at that time was International Harvester.

TK: Really, Harvester?

TL: I went to Lonie and yes, they had a problem job, Lonie designed the tool, took it into them, it worked. I quoted half price on the tool, which I shouldn't 46:00have done, we were not competitive. They took our design to another company. I said Lonnie don't spend the first nickel's worth of time on this account and we'll see if we can't make a penetration of the market without that. And he did. He was able to do an adequate job. When we go to the national tournaments, they welcome me all over the place, in spite of the fact they'd had this bad experience at ACBL. OK, it's time someone would get out of line and make some nasty crack at me and I'd just wink at one of my friends and walk away and boy 47:00would they ( ). Husband- wife teams don't do well. So when it was a mixed pair event, I would play with Lonie's wife and Lonie wouldn't play at all. We had a neighborhood bridge thing that was just informal. Ronnie and Marie Abram, have you interviewed them, I don't know , they were involved in some of this stuff. Wendell and ( ) Rayburn, used to be at U of L, Lonnie and Mary Bell and Skip and Donna Grafton.

TK; I've heard that name.

LT: Skip's out at U of L.

TK: That's probably where I have heard it.

LT: We had three tables and I sat up a duplicate game, for you never played with 48:00your wife. We just had a lot of fun. We could talk about anything, we could talk abortion, race relations, whatever. We were really good friends. It was a lot of fun, then Mary Bell died , she had cancer. We all grieved and then our club broke up because Lonie was kind of a spark plug. After a couple of years Lonie had a little heart attack, in the grieving process, al lot of times they do that. He met another heart patient by the name Evelyn Walker and they had to walk as part of the therapy. I found out that they were walking around the Reservoir on a Saturday morning, so I go up there and I see them coming, so I go 49:00the other way. Oh, so you're the Ace of Spades , she looks at me cross-eyed. I said, that's better than Clubs but look out for Diamonds cause they play tricks on Hearts. Old Lonnie was furious. He says, there is something you don't know. I said Yeah. He said she works for the IRS and you just earned an audit. I said that's going to make for a taxing relationship. A few months after that they married at Chestnut Baptist Church on the Sunday of the Christmas music festival. Now if you have ever been to that church, beautiful church, wonderful acoustics, well-trained choir and all the carols you grew up with. Then Rev. Daniels comes to the podium and says we are going to have wedding.

TK: C. Mackey Daniels? I know that church.

LT: He said we're going to have wedding and named them and said if any of you want to stay, stay. I guess there were about 300 of us stayed. I was the only white person in that church and I was the best man.

TK: How long ago was that?

LT: They have just had their eleventh anniversary last December.

TK: Did he work with you until he retired?

LT: Oh, yeah. Actually he was working one day a week to augment his pension. He was in charge of our relationship with-- , this was when he didn't want to drive 51:00anymore as he was over 65. He was in charge with our relationships with charities. He went to the Hideaway luncheon and this luncheon and that luncheon so I didn't have to go and get fat.

TK: One thing I want make sure we talk about before I forget, I just noticed this little note to myself, I want to talk about how you knew Betty Johnson.

LT: I think it was the Lincoln foundation, but I'm not sure, I think so. Her husband was in the building business and that's another interesting story.

TK: This is her husband Taylor, her previous husband, not the one she has now.

LT: And the Pole Plant?

TK: I don't know that one.

LT: He started it, he got some kind of a minority thing and started a plant and had some building contracts and stuff and I was trying to help him. But one of the guys he was working with, little white guy, I don't think was at all helpful. And one of the southern Senators , someone got the contract killed cause he was black. So he was not successful in that endeavor and lost some money. Well we were going to put a plant in the Industrial Park , a warehouse for Skookies, now a machine division. He was a builder, he developed a sub 53:00division out there on 42.

TK: Oh, really?

LT: He was a good builder and he had contacts, so he could be a job contractor, he knew the cement people and the whatever. He put the building out for bid and Jim was the low bidder. Which I was very glad for, hoping it would be that case. He no sooner gets started, I get a call from the union. You cannot put up a plant in this town non-union. I said , now wait a minute, my understanding that your union does not have a single black member or builder and if you tackle me 54:00before the human relations commission, just keep on talking. That's the last I heard from him.

TK: That's interesting, not a single person. Now when was that?

LT: Oh, I don't remember, a long time ago.

TK; So you're saying that's how you got to know him, but how did you get hooked up--

LT: I knew Betty first and then got acquainted with him. Unfortunately it was a smoker.

TK: What was this Quaker Social Action Committee that she told me a little about.

LT: I think what you are referring probably is the, what the heck do they call it? It's a little card or holding company if you want to . They had three, now they have two. One is the Friends School and the other is the Peace Education Project.

TK: I know about the Peace Education Project.

LT: The Friends School is a pre-school that has about 15 to 20 percent special needs kids. What they find is that these kids with all kinds of disabilities do a lot better if they're with mostly main-line kids. Not segregated. It's been very successful. My granddaughter went there and got a good education. I told you about the ( ) laid down when the school board picked it up.

TK: That was with the school system. And that was around bussing?

LT: It was after busing, it was an attempt to make busing work. They did do a little in representing kids that had been in trouble. While they were in a sense 56:00advocates of busing, they tried not to be too much of an advocacy group. They tried to do it a constructive way instead of trying to fight.

TK: You said besides that you weren't really directly involved with busing stuff yourself.

LT: Not a bit.

TK: OK, so I can cross that off. After the sort of height of the movement, you know the time period when there's marches and demonstrations and stuff, what happens after that in terms of race relations?

LT: Well, we've talked some about that. You know that you have--

TK: Some important issues?

LT: Today we -- You said were past your time frame as far as you said 1974 was it.

TK: 1980.

LT: 1980. This is 2000 so it is 20 years later. We have some white backlash, and it is unfortunate.

TK: One of the things I have to do with the book is talk about what are the connections. I going to go to the last chapter where I especially talk about the connections between the movements of today. So many people I talk to made those connections.

LT: We have some black backlash and white backlash and it unfortunate and one of the interesting things that has happened here lately of course is this controversy with the Police Chief . In my judgment, any time you fire somebody 58:00you made a mistake.

TK: You mean it was a mistake to hire them or--

LT: You made a mistake, you didn't make it work. You failed. And the same thing is true of the person who is fired, he made a mistake, he didn't make it work. If the mayor had stood tall, and said that, he might of hit it off. He had obviously, when a person makes an ethical mistake he's got to go. But the fact that he made the ethical mistake means that there was inadequate communication. That's the way it is, and is most unfortunate. Two weeks after the, considering what he did, he had a washer tours and invited Highland Presbyterian to come 59:00with him to West Chestnut Baptist Church. Which is exactly the right kind of thing to do. Let's cool it man.

TK: I saw that in the paper.

LT: I think, I can't prove it but I think probably he had something to do with rescheduling the Jesse Jackson March off of the Derby. There's no damn sense with mixing booze and marching any more than you mix booze and driving because they can turn violent on you.

TK: Oh yeah, it could have been dangerous.

LT: It could have been a blood bath. And I wouldn't be surprised with what Mackey Daniels had something to do with it because he's a statesman.

TK: He sort of a behind the scenes kind of guy?

LT: Yeah, he'll do it, he doesn't get out there with Coleman and that crowd, and he just gets the job done.

END TAPE 1, SIDE B

START TAPE 2, SIDE A

TK: --Now intended to tell.

LT: Let's take a look at my notes and see if there is anything that's on here-- 60:00Oh, this is just a side thing. I played bridge with Lonie the other day and we had a party a couple of weeks ago and he said, Lee, you got some wonderful friends. He said nobody wanted to talk about the mayor. See he was just another person

TK: He didn't have to bring it up. And sort of back up, I did want to ask, cause I know even though it's outside of the time period I seem to be focusing on it. I know did actually go back to the Lincoln Foundation. I was just curious about how that was.

LT: See this is what happened. When I was on the ( ) right after the take over, Sam Robinson came to me and said, Lee you need a reason to get up in the morning. Why don't you come back to be our chair again? So I did another two 61:00years. But that was an act of friendship. You heard me say that, on the phone here just a minute ago, that I had a lot of help getting picked up after the tragedy. I sure did. I was the chair of the board of Lincoln when they hired Dr. Robinson.

TK: He's on the list to eventually interview. Besides that some of this personal stuff you told me about--

LT: Mansur took a black person from South Africa to the Presbyterian Church in Anchorage and was criticized for it. That was when he joined the Society of Friends.

TK: Oh, he did join the Society?

LT: Oh, yeah he was member ( ).

TK: Were a lot of people in the meeting involved in either racial or social causes?

LT: Oh, yeah. Tora Rice is out at the Park DuValle she was active in all kinds 62:00of stuff. Alan Sanders, Mansur, Joan.

TK: Joan, your wife Joan?

LT: Incidentally there were four murders on the block while she was there practicing medicine. She had more guts than sense.

TK: You said was on West Broadway, was that where she was?

LT: When she was on Market St. Most of the time was on Market St. When she first went into practice she said, she was just one of four women in her class, and still very few women in medicine, and she figured to have a real practice she'd have to go where there was a real need. Dr. Walls was retiring and she took his office, with the deal at anytime you want to see one of your old friends, if you 63:00want to keep a few of you patients, use on of the examining rooms. That was the arrangement. They were friends of ours for a long--

TK: John Walls? Is this Dr. John Walls, as in John and Mary Walls was the wife?

LT: I think that's right, I'm not sure. I think so. Tobacco Company was going to take that business over or something, so she was going to have to look for something else. We were able to buy a storefront over on Market St. and we no sooner had got in there somebody broke in and didn't find any drugs that was the last time she was bothered. We put steel doors on it at that point but nobody ever bothered after that.

TK: How long did she practice there?

LT: Well, she was in the West End for over twenty years, twenty-one years.

TK: Is she still practicing?

LT: No. She was kind of driven out.

TK: Just by all the changes in the medical care?

LT: That was part of it. The lawyers another part of it and the Public Clinics were advertising to get paying patients and going door to door taking her patients away from her cause they could get free X-rays and stuff that Joannie couldn't provide for them. They didn't want her there. It was less expensive for them to her than to go to the clinics but the clinics were tax supported do they wanted her out of there to make comparison.

TK: That's interesting. Any other involvement besides some of the things you talked about that you can think of?

LT: One interesting aside, the spot I should have had on the Citizen Fidelity 65:00Bank Board went to Sam Robinson.

TK: That's not completely a bad thing.

LT: No it's not. I covered all of my notes.

TK: Well, I usually like to set aside the generals for the period questions that I want to ask people, kind of to wrap things up. One of the things I always ask everybody is if you were writing a book on the civil rights movement in Louisville, when would you start it and when would you finish it?

LT: I doubt if you would finish it the day after tomorrow. Well I think I would 66:00start it in about 1950. Because at that time we were really a southern town and all of the integration occurred after that, except busses.

TK: Everybody says that about the end of black way. I've not had a single person whose told me anything other than day after tomorrow. In your opinion what in the past has been the most significant issues or causes that every one had to confront?

LT: Northern Liberals.

TK: Really? Why is that?

LT: In order to have the kind of society we want, it's got to be based on personal relationships. It's got to be because you're a friend of mine and I love you. Not because I'm going to stand on a soapbox and talk about rights. Rights are important, don't get me wrong. I was involved a little bit in the Deep South and one of the fellows down there said, in the North they have segregation in north and in the South. The only difference is that in the South 68:00it has a Federal government stamp. But in the North people say yes we ought to have equal rights for everybody, but I don't want you to live next to me. This attitude we don't need.

TK: What were you doing in the Deep South?

LT: There was an organization, what was it called. It was a forerunner of Martin Luther King's organization. One of the executives on the thing was a guy named Jordan.

TK: Clarence Jordan?

LT: No, guy that's a friend of Clinton.

TK: Hampton Jordan.

LT: No, Vernon Jordan. He came to Louisville after he moved from there to the ( 69:00). He spotted me. And he said from the podium, Lee Thomas here he was the guy who kept telling me I had to learn to keep good books.

TK: How about the organizational skills?

LT: I've forgotten the name of the organization. I was on a bus in Memphis for them. Bus fare said get your ride a bus, ride a bus. Oh, hell. I got to ride a bus like the man told me to. Just putting him on to keep ( ).You got to have a sense of humor can't be taking yourself so damned seriously.

TK: Well this is kind of lead to another question I always like to ask people. Given all the different ways that people can act to bring about change, what do you think has been the most successful strategy or tactic or method for bringing about change?

LT: I think that I've accomplished more playing bridge. Now you're going to say how? Because I just made friends and did what I wanted to do. Nothing phony about it. It's just friends. When I invite people over to the house of both colors gosh knows what. Because they're friends. That's the way to do it.

TK: So focus on the relationship side of things rather than ( ). The last question I always ask everybody is what makes the Louisville story interesting. 71:00Why should I write a book about Louisville?

LT: Because this is where we are. This is our town. We love this town. We want this town to be successful. You can write a story here that will cause people in Louisville to feel good about what's happened and to make it happen in the future, you'll have done worth doing.

TK: Can I put that on my draft proposals?

LT: Yes you can. You sure can.

TK: That's my last question.

END TAPE 2, SIDE A