Interview with Neville Tucker, September 10, 2000



Tracy K'Meyer: This is an interview conducted by Tracy K'Meyer with Neville Tucker on the telephone on September 10, 2001.

TK: I thought I'd just go ahead and get started and basically just do as much today until you get tired or until you have to go. Does that sound okay?

Neville Tucker: Okay.

TK: I have some biographical information about you already from newspaper articles, but I did want to confirm just a couple of quick things, sort of background information.

NT: Okay.

TK: One of those is when were you born?

NT: November 6, 1933.

TK: And that was in Louisville, correct?

NT: Right.

TK: Okay. And did you have any siblings?

NT: I have a sister.

TK: Younger or older?

NT: She's older.

TK: Okay, because I've never seen any mention of any other . . . just you is the 1:00only name I knew. Okay then last background type question is did you go straight from law school into the army?

NT: I finished law school in June and it was about in September. I was out about four or five months, so it was almost straight.

TK: Okay almost straight. And what year did you get back from Louisville after the army?

NT: Let me see, '56, it must have been '59.

TK: '59, okay. All right I just wanted to make sure I had those dates correct. What I'd like to do is just ask you to start, when you got back to Louisville what was going on at that time in terms of Civil Rights activity? What things can you remember going on at that time?

NT: As I remember it, some things were going on before I left, but when I got back I remember they had had an incident that was still on everybody's minds. I think a Jamaican ambassador, mayor if Kingston, or some official, had come to 2:00Louisville and had not been able to eat at Walgreens. And that was on everybody's mind. They had some of the public accommodations were open, some were not or they mixed. You never knew if you went into a particular place, you might go into ( ) and they would serve you, you'd go into Kresege's and they would not! Then the movement of people, like I said started when I got back the movement of people residentially. The West End, which was ( ) traditionally white was beginning to open up and I think a lot of that was a result of the events that happened surrounding the Wades and the house in Shively. I think that was a factor in the Realtors and the banks and lending institutions opening 3:00up and lending money to blacks to move to areas they hadn't move into before.

TK: Had you been involved at all in that case, the Wade case, before you left?

NT: The only involvement I had, I was in law school, I think I was there keeping guard at night.

TK: Oh you did?

NT: Yes.

TK: What was that like?

NT: Well it was sort of tense, because you know there were all types of fears and rumors flying around. It was one black family in an oasis of white families with a lot of resistance to him being there. There were all types of rumors flying about the place being bombed and people attacking with rifles. I think at that point I was actually, I think I was actually in law school. I was not involved in the legal portion of it.

TK: How had you gotten involved in the guarding part?

NT: Well my father was a friend of the Wades. And Andy Wade, the one who bought the house, he was an old tennis partner. We had played tennis together.

TK: Oh really!

NT: Kind of knew each other. Also my father was involved in the representation in some of the criminal cases that came out of that, you know the Bradens were prosecuted and etc.

TK: Yeah one thing I thought was after we finished talking about you I'd like to go back and ask you some questions about your father, if that's okay, to see if you remember anything.

NT: Okay.

TK: That would be later after we finish talking about you. So when you got back did you get involved in any organizations, Civil Rights organizations, or anything like that?

NT: Well let me mention, the answer to that is yes, but actually before I had gone to the army, I guess I was finishing up law school, I was president of the 5:00youth chapter of the NAACP.

TK: Oh you were, okay.

NT: And one interesting thing that, I think it was right before I went to the army we marched downtown to test, you know, the stands and the ten cents stores and so forth, see if they would serve. At that time I think Carl Heustis was still police chief. He would not enforce segregation. So we went in and nothing spectacular happened, you know, we were served most places, other places we would sit there until we were tired. There were no arrests because at that point the chief took the position that they would not enforce segregation laws. That had occurred before I went into the service.

TK: So that was before you went away. You were a youth chapter president you said?

NT: Chapter president of the NAACP, yes.

TK: Do you remember any of the other people who were in that with you?

NT: Oh golly! I would have to think real hard. I would have to think before I could think of some of the names before. I think they were mostly University of Louisville students at the time. I'll have to think of those names afterwards.

TK: All right I'll just write down to maybe come back to that. Okay so you did that, and then you went away and then you came back. Did you get involved in the NAACP then when you came back?

NT: Yes.

TK: What kinds of things was it doing at the time you came back?

NT: There were always cases out in the state. There were no black lawyers out in the state and they would quite often call on the NAACP to come down and represent blacks where they thought they could not get fair representation. I 7:00guess all the young lawyers did some of that. Most of it, of that type of thing, was actually done by a fellow, a very good friend, James Crumlin.

TK: Right I've interviewed him.

NT: Right, right. He was quite a fellow. He was like Jesus to the folks out in the state. He was president of the state NAACP for a long time. And he had a reputation where they would always call on him for racial matters, or even matters where blacks could not get representation.

TK: Were you doing legal work then for the NAACP at that time?

NT: They would always have little matters that they would ask the lawyers to do that were involved with the NAACP.

TK: And then did you set a private practice at the time too?

NT: I was in private practice at the time, yes.

TK: Okay. One of the first things I have to ask you about is some political activity that I actually just read recently in the Defender, that you ran for forty-second district?

NT: Right, right. I think I was just out of the army. What year was that?

TK: It's in '59.

NT: '59, I was just out of the army a few months, right.

TK: I'm only up to 1959 in the Defender, so I have a way to go. So you were a Republican, correct?

NT: Right. My family were all old-line Republicans.

TK: And why was that? Why did you choose that party?

NT: I guess it was a family heritage. My father was a strong Republican and he passed it along. Also the Republican Party in Kentucky during those years had a, probably had a good reputation. No, I wouldn't say good reputation, but a better reputation than they have now, and they had policies and had office holders that 9:00blacks could support. I mean people like John Sherman Cooper. And also I think locally the Republican Party at that time was more liberal in racial matters than the local Democratic Party.

TK: And why did you choose to run for office?

NT: It was just something, I thought I'd be interested in doing. I'd like to sit in the legislature. I had so many people asking me to do it, some of the Republicans, when I first got back.

TK: And could you tell me a little bit about the campaign?

NT: It was I guess before the advent of television. Not the advent of television, but the advent of television advertising, which I guess I know in California that is the most important thing because people are so wide spread. 10:00It was more going to organizations, going to churches. Precinct captains then were very very important, particularly in primaries and, you know, you tried to cultivate precinct captains to get out and work for you at different organizations, civic organizations and etc.

TK: Were there many blacks in positions of power in the party organization?

NT: In '61?

TK: In '59, when you were first running.

NT: No, I think they had, they might have had one person on the Republican Executive Committee, the County Executive Committee as I recall.

TK: Did you win that election?

NT: No.

TK: I didn't think so. Like I said I'm not up that far yet, but I didn't think you had. Now the next major event that I wanted to talk about was the open accommodations struggle. Whenever I interview anybody about this your name always comes up, so I had a lot of questions there. Were you involved in the "Porgy and Bess" demonstrations in December of '59?

NT: I must not have been because I don't recollect about those.

TK: And what about when CORE first started demonstrating in 1960, were you involved in that?

NT: Yes.

TK: Could you tell me how that happened, how did CORE get organized here?

NT: As I remember it . . . boy that's forty years ago! [Laughter] If I remember ( ) and Perdue. A gentleman by the name, an old Baptist minister by the name of M.M.D. Perdue. And we just followed along with them and followed their lead.

TK: So they were the adult leaders and you were a little younger?

NT: Right, right.

TK: Now I interviewed Merv Aubespin and he told me some stories about how he would get together with people like Frank Stanley . . .

NT: I missed the name.

TK: Merv Aubespin.

NT: Merv Aubespin, my goodness yes!

TK: I've interviewed him a couple of times actually. He's been a very good source of information and he told me stories about how he and Frank Stanley and you would sort of hang out together and that there was like this group of young black professionals that were involved in the open accommodations. Do you remember that group?

NT: Oh yes, yes, yes absolutely! As I remember, what year was that? That was '60?

TK: '61.

NT: Was it '61?

TK: Yeah.

NT: Yes, as I remember when they started the drive for open accommodations in the . . . open accommodations and trying to get the law passed in places. And they had a steering committee. I forget whether it was six or nine. There were three chairmen. I think Frank Stanley, Frank was a chairman. W.T. Hodge was a 13:00chairman. My father was one of the chairmen as I remember. And I remember myself and ( ) were two other members on the committee. And I can't really; I just can't remember who the other members were.

TK: How did you get on that committee?

NT: Well I had been, I guess I had been active in things and they I guess got the people who had been most active. And they wanted some lawyers. I think Charlie ( ) might have been on the steering committee too. One other thing that was happening about that time was a non-partisan voter. . . . Did you pick up any information about that?

TK: I've seen it mentioned but I have no information about it, so could you tell me about that?

NT: Well the Non-partisan Registration Committee was an effort to get blacks 14:00registered to vote, in great numbers. And it was quite a success. I know we had M.L. King come and speak. For instance, they had a big rally at the armory at the time. And we had most of the folks that were interested, you know, they were involved politically, blacks, Republicans, I mean Republicans, Democrats, Independents or what have you. And again I was in the organization that had a three, a three-person head. I think it was three co-chairmen, myself, Frank Stanley again, and Woodford Porter. And the idea was to have a Democrat or Republican and an Independent chairman. At that time Woody Porter was an 15:00Independent, I was a Republican, Stanley was a Democrat. We were really were successful in registering just droves of people. I hate to cite numbers, I tend to, as the years pass, I tend to exaggerate the numbers! But, you know, there were somewhere in the eight, nine, ten thousand.

TK: Wow!

NT: Is the figures we put out, yes.

TK: You said you had the rally. Did you also go door-to-door and stuff like that, or how did you register people?

NT: I don't know if that was the beginning or the culmination, but it was organized people in all of the areas that would go out and actually get people; so they'd get them to the polls and drive them to the polls and so forth. Not to the polls, to register, register.

TK: Did you ever encounter any white resistance to voter registration here in Louisville?

NT: No, not really, not during that period.

TK: Okay, because, you know, obviously there was in other places and so I'm always wondering.

NT: ( ) see why that wasn't.

TK: Okay, that's interesting! That makes Louisville different. All right so you 16:00were talking about this steering committee that you got on for the open accommodations. So what was your role on the steering committee?

NT: I guess the steering committee sort of acted as the administrative to direct and plan the sit-ins and legal activity and the legal actions that were taken and so forth. They had droves of people that were arrested and NAACP Legal Defense Fund came in and helped. I think they appointed four lawyers or so to represent the kids that had been arrested. And again those lawyers represented, it was just hundreds and hundreds of arrests. Again, let me think, I think there was four of us, there was James Crumlin, ( ), Charlie Lundermis, and my self.

TK: Okay, so you were the four lawyers for all the cases?

NT: Right, right.

TK: I'd like to ask some questions about those cases. When the people were arrested what were they actually charged with?

NT: Oh they were charged with loitering, disorderly conduct, trespassing.

TK: And then what was your defense strategy, how did you deal with the case?

NT: I guess basically we took the defense that the context in which the laws were being enforced was just, you know, just unconstitutional.

TK: And then what happened with those cases?

NT: I guess a bunch of them got dismissed. I was trying to think if at some point there was an agreement to dismiss them again. My recollection's not too clear, but we were in court almost daily, you know, during a period of time 18:00where folks would be arrested and hauled off to jail.

TK: Where did you get the money for bail?

NT: NAACP, the local NAACP chapter gave some support! We had bondsmen. I remember one bondsman in particular, a fellow by the name of Claude Benboe that would get them out on bond, and I'm not sure if he charged anything. If he did it was something very minimal. That was his contribution. A couple of other black bondsmen were very liberal in making bond.

TK: This is sort of a general impression question, but when you were dealing with the local courts and the judges and stuff, what was your impression of their reaction to all this? I mean were they very hostile or very amenable, or how would you characterize their demeanor, I guess?

NT: I would think, I think they weren't personally hostile. I think they were hostile to our position. I think they were more interested in maintaining the status quo.

TK: What was the behavior of the police like during the demonstrations?

NT: It varied individually. You had some who took this is our job, this is what we're instructed to do, and some who seemed to take delight in hauling them in and, you know, throwing them in the wagon and so forth. It really varied from officer to officer.

TK: Did you yourself also participate in the demonstrations?

NT: No.

TK: Was that because you were on the steering committee?

NT: Because I was one of the lawyers.

TK: Oh okay, so you had to stay out of that I guess. I've also heard people mention a mayor's committee that the mayor put together to deal with this. Do you remember anything about that?

NT: I remember the first meeting with the mayor. This was mayor Hoblitzell?

TK: Yeah, uh-huh.

NT: I remember the first mayor when the sit-ins got hot and so forth, he called an emergency meeting. I remember meeting in the hallway of city hall. And I suppose I do remember ( ) of a committee.

TK: I've also heard that there were some negotiations, sort of behind the scenes trying to get businesses to integrate. Were you involved with that at all?

NT: The steering committee was, yes.

TK: And what happened to those negotiations?

NT: Some of them I remember, old Kaufman Strauss, for example, was one as result of negotiations that came open. I think they even hired folks in, you know, some of the better positions. I don't remember specifically who; I know negotiations 21:00with Blue Boar were a total failure as I recall.

TK: Yeah, I've heard a lot about the Blue Boar. One thing I'm interested in, because not too many have talked about it, is Fontaine Ferry and the demonstrations out there. Do you remember anything about the demonstrations at Fontaine Ferry?

NT: Now I did participate in the demonstration at Fontaine Ferry. In fact I was the plaintiff that brought the first, I guess the first action before the Louisville Human Relations Commission! I mean I went down ( ) entrance and so forth. They had pretext that this was a private club. I was actually the ( ) and the plaintiff more or less, so I do remember that.

TK: And what happened to that case then?

NT: Well the Human Relations Commission determined that it was not, that it was a public accommodations, it was not a private club because anybody who came up 22:00could get membership if they were white; if you were black you couldn't. So they did open it, I think, the Human Relations by that decision action.

TK: But there had been demonstrations there as well, right?

NT: Yes.

TK: Do you remember anything about what those were like?

NT: Again I remember people being there and being hauled off to jail. I think that was a place where people gathered around who were opposing. I don't think there was actually any violence, but where that people had sort of gathered around making threats and noise and so forth.

TK: In general, in these open accommodations campaigns, was there was much violence against the demonstrations?

NT: During the public accommodations they ( ) at some demonstrators by the police, but I guess they were pretty much separated from the antis who wanted to 23:00afflict violence on the demonstrators. So it was kept to a minimum is my recollection.

TK: I'm interested in the behind the scenes part of the story I guess. Do you know how it was organized? How were the demonstrators organized and things like that before people actually go out and demonstrate?

NT: What usually happened in the demonstrations young people would, usually I think it would start with young people and then spread. Then the older folks, I mean even myself, the adults would sort of see where they could help, and then, you know, to support the young people. Then as they built up more people came. I don't remember exactly, but I'm not sure that in every instance it was a man who said, "Heh, sit down," and on a drawing board decide this is where we're going today at six o'clock. I think later on that happened, you know, we're going here 24:00today, we're going here tomorrow. I think it kind of grew up spontaneously.

TK: Do you remember anything about the "Nothing New for Easter" campaign?

NT: Yes.

TK: Where did the idea for that come from?

NT: That probably came from . . . I don't know, I would say it either came out of the steering committee or was brought to the steering committee. That was decided.

TK: What happened around Derby time? Were there demonstrations or special plans around Derby?

NT: As I remember, about the period that you're talking about I don't know except it might be intensified, you know, demonstrations downtown, Blue Boar and other places because you know the people that were coming from out of town.

TK: And then just kind of wrapping up on the open accommodations. I know that they had voter registration and then campaign for the board of alderman. Were you involved in those campaigns?

NT: You know, the history was, the public accommodations law was put before the Democratic Board of Aalderman and they just, I guess Bill Beckett couldn't get a second. The Democratic Party by that point had become rotten in terms of race relations. It was a feeling, Bill Cowger did not make a commitment, he would not make a commitment that he would pass or support an accommodations law, but there was sort of a feeling that he would, and so there was a lot of getting out the 26:00vote for that election. I think the black community was pretty much united, as much as a community can be united, to elect a Republican administration.

TK: Once the new administration was inaugurated did they pass the ordinance right away or did it take a while?

NT: I don't know how long. It certainly wasn't the first item of business! I took a while but it wasn't too long as I recall.

TK: After the open accommodations what did you get involved with next?

NT: Well, I'm trying to think. Dan Taylor and I made a three week or so trip down to Mississippi.

TK: Really!

NT: To represent the bus riders.

TK: You mean in the freedom rides?

NT: Freedom rides, yes.

TK: Oh I didn't know that! And how did you get involved in that?

NT: Well it was, I guess, how to put this, we were ( ) outfit, Constitutional Committee for something. They were looking for volunteers all over the country. What was happening was that, the freedom riders as they would come in of course they would be arrested. And there was a great deal of danger to the white freedom riders, more so than blacks, because the jails were segregated, and the whites of course they'd be thrown in with the white locals and of course, I guess in jail you have a lot of thugs! [Laughter] So it was always a race to try to get them out, of course we wanted to get the blacks out too, but the real dangers were the white participants. Went down there three weeks or so, up and down the state of Mississippi.

TK: That's interesting. And then you came back to Louisville?

NT: Right.

TK: Okay. And then what did you do next in Louisville?

NT: I suppose . . . I suppose open housing was the next item.

TK: Okay and how did that get started?

NT: I'm trying to think if this is the time that I think. . . . Had A.D. come to town then?

TK: He just barely, yes he had arrived by then.

NT: I'm not sure if it started and he joined in, or if he was one of the initiators of getting the open housing thing started. Leo Lesser, for example was very much active. I guess right after, soon after Mississippi, I took a job for a few months I guess, not a few months, a short period of time in the county attorney's office and then I went to the commonwealth's attorney's office. They 29:00asked me if I would take over the presidency of the local chapter of the NAACP, so I resigned from the commonwealth's attorney's office and accepted the position as president of the NAACP.

TK: Oh you did!

NT: Yes, and that's the time that the housing thing was in full bloom as I recall.

TK: Okay.

[short pause]

TK: You still there?

NT: I'm still here.

TK: Do you remember what year that was?

NT: That must have been '66.

TK: Okay, so you're president of the NAACP. Why did housing become an issue at that time?

NT: I guess there was just a, felt that there was a lack of housing, of broad housing opportunities for blacks.

TK: And what role did the NAACP have in the movement, in the open housing movement?

NT: Well I think it was a cooperative effort. Again the NAACP they provided troops, they did some of the financing for the legal work, and, I'm trying to think. Of course there was A.D. King and Southern Christian Leadership Conference, they were very very very active.

END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A

START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B

TK: There that's better. Can you tell me, can you describe some of the strategies that the movement used to get open housing?

NT: Well what they did they, again it was mass demonstrations, and I guess one of the hopes was that it would put pressure on the Board of Alderman to pass an 31:00open housing. So the same time this was going on there was some movement toward trying to get an open housing law passed there in Louisville.

TK: And did you personally participate in the demonstrations?

NT: Just as a lawyer. I observed lawyers, they us asked not to participate.

TK: Okay and when you say observed, what does that mean, you actually go watch?

NT: Actually go watch, yes.

TK: Could you describe them to me?

NT: They would go in a neighborhood, and I think there was more violence involved with the open housing marches than with the public accommodations. I think people actually were throwing rocks and etc.

TK: Why do you think it was more violent for open housing than it was for open accommodations?

NT: I felt people who lived in some of the neighborhoods maybe they, this seemed to have been more sacred to the people who were against integration and against fair play, ( ) accommodations. Looks like they felt that this just hit closer to home for some reason. In fact, if I recall I think M.L. King might have even been hit by a rock or so.

TK: Right, I've heard that actually.

NT: Oh you have then, okay then I'm correct!

TK: I haven't read it anywhere yet, but I've heard, people have told me that story. When the people are marching, sort of trying to describe the march a little bit, about how many people would be marching?

NT: I think there was one hundred, two hundred.

TK: And is it mix of white and black or is it all . . .?

NT: There was one march downtown that I took part in. I think we marched down Fourth Street one night.

TK: Were these mostly, I know with the open accommodations it was mostly young people, what was the age like in the open housing movement?

NT: I would think in open housing you probably had more older people. By more I don't mean, I mean more than you had in public accommodations.

TK: Because that was almost all young people, right; that earlier one. At one point I read about some controversy over, that Southern Christian Leadership Conference came to help with the marches and then there was some controversy about that. Do you remember anything about that?

NT: Yeah, you know, yes. As I recall it A.D. Williams King came to town I think there was some feeling or fear that he would want to just take over.

TK: Now you said you were a lawyer in this, acting as a lawyer during this movement, so people were arrested I know that, but what were people arrested for?

NT: Again loitering, disorderly conduct, ( ) sedition charges. I think there was 34:00a total, I remember this, about six hundred cases, I mean about six hundred different charges. I want to get back to this in terms of the controversy with SCLC. I think there was some fear among some of the leaders that, you know, this guy's going to try to come in here with his name and just take over. But actually no one could have been more cooperative and willing to work with other folks than A.D. Williams King was. It turned out to be a false fear.

TK: Oh okay. So he was a good leader?

NT: Yes, and he was competent, I mean he was not one, I mean by being King he naturally sort of shot to the forefront. He showed no inclination to want to hog the show or to take over or to not cooperate with other groups.

TK: Did he leave here before he passed away or did he die here in town?

NT: [inaudible]

TK: Okay, all right, I thought he had left before that. So going back to the arrests you said there were about six hundred different?

NT: Different arrests.

TK: Again, who provided the bail and things like that?

NT: Again you had, I guess, people that were supporting the cause, NAACP. Again you had very cooperative bondsmen.

TK: Did you have any cooperation with groups in other cities that were doing the same thing?

NT: I'll tell you what happened, NAACP is very well organized. You could always get information and learn from their experiences. You could call the New York office if you needed any particular help or so forth, they were always ready to provide it.

TK: How long were you president of the NAACP?

NT: I think it was about eighteen months if I recall.

TK: Oh not very long.

NT: No.

TK: And then Hodge was president after you, right?

NT: Hodge might have been president before and after!

TK: Yeah, I think he, I think he, that could be, yeah.

NT: One time Hodge and they would alternate. Lyman Johnson was president a couple of times, and I think he was president before and after me, I'm not exactly sure. But I think Hodge was president before and after!

TK: And how did the open housing issue resolve itself?

NT: One thing I did want to tell you that is of interest. The six hundred we took the cases and we filed the suit in federal court and we got all those arrests knocked out as being null and void and unconstitutional and so forth.

TK: Oh really!

NT: That was quite a victory.

TK: Okay, I'll have to look that up. So they were ruled unconstitutional, okay. 37:00So that resolved the arrest issues. How did the, I guess how did the movement end?

NT: As I recall, my recollection is, at that point you had, I think during most of that agitation, you had a Republican Board of Alderman, and again I think they refused to pass the open housing. And again blacks were sort of united, maybe not as united as they were in '61, and they elected a Democratic Board of Alderman. I think it was a Democratic Board of Alderman that finally passed open housing.

TK: And were you involved in any other issues besides open housing at this time?

NT: That was what most of what NAACP was involved in. Also involved in some 38:00educational issues. For example, I think one of the things that was popular, I guess one of the theories that was taking hold at that time, was compensatory allocation of funds so that schools that are behind were given more money to catch up. And, you know, NAACP, we took the position that that wasn't necessary, we just needed equal funding. We didn't think the blacks were necessarily getting the best share of the schools and so forth. After I left the NAACP I ran for the school board.

TK: Okay and what happened with that?

NT: When I went out for the school board?

TK: Yeah.

NT: I stayed there for, again these periods of time, about eighteen months or so until, then I ran for police court judge.

TK: So you were elected to the school board first?

NT: That's right.

TK: Okay. School board is a non-partisan election?

NT: It's a non-partisan election, right.

TK: And then police judge. Why did you choose to run for school board?

NT: Because of the NAACP. We were beginning to become involved in educational issues. And Woodford Porter, who had been on the school board, first one elected and even had served as chairman, he had decided to get off of the school board, not to run for re-election. And what had happened is I guess that a system had developed about that time, they would call community leaders together and sort 40:00of decide who would run for Board of Education. They did that and some people urged me to run and I was elected so I went ahead and ran.

TK: And you were on for eighteen months. Is that one term?

NT: It wasn't a full term.

TK: Oh okay. And then police court judge, is that what you called it? What does a police court judge do?

NT: Okay, it's an institution, it seems to be peculiar to the south and some of the cities in the mid-west. Actually the police court judge, police court was five or six different courts. What they did in Louisville was elect a judge and he would appoint the other judges that would, you know, sit in the other branches. It was a criminal court with jurisdiction to examine, for instance any murder case, anything highly serious would come through there as examining trial 41:00and then would go to superior court, and it also it had jurisdiction I think of five hundred dollars, six months a year, something like that.

TK: And why did you want that position?

NT: Well what happened was there was a group of young blacks that had decided they were going to run together as a unit in the primary, Democratic primary.

TK: Is this the unity slate?

NT: That's it! I was trying to think of the name, right!

TK: Yeah, okay. I was going to ask you about this.

NT: They run together and they were, I think they were going to run people from different organizations all under thirty-five. And I think, initially Ben Shobe was going to run for police court judge. Then someone talked to him and he decided to run for superior court judge, criminal. The unity slate initially was folks under thirty-five. I think I was a few months over thirty-five and I guess 42:00I initially ( ) want somebody, you know, to run for that spot.

TK: And who's idea was the unity slate, do you know?

NT: I would guess Darryl Owens, what's the county ( ) name? Raoul Cunningham. There was a fellow by the name of Jeff that worked for, a director; he was director of Plymouth Settlement House at the time. I think it might have been their brainchild as I recall.

TK: And why were they doing this?

NT: Well they were trying to, I guess, show the power of the black community, number one politically; number two get a bigger voice for blacks in political affairs.

TK: So what happened in the campaign?

NT: Well what happened, I sort of had a split from the Black Unity Slate. What happened was there was a difference in philosophy as to whether it was more important to make a statement or to get elected. I guess I was in the minority, I thought that it was -- those that felt that in the future it would make a statement would be more advantageous, would garner more for the black community in the future than getting one person elected - - I thought it was more important to get elected. We sort of had a friendly falling out and I ran on, I think it was Frank Burke's slate.

TK: And that was a Republican slate or Democratic?

NT: Democratic.

TK: Democratic slate, okay. Had you become a Democrat by this point?

NT: I became a Democrat about '68 I'd say.

TK: Why did you switch?

NT: Well I had, again I was unhappy with the national Republican party. They kind of lost me in the Goldwater. That was four years before I actually changed and I think even I had sat on some educator's committee for Humphrey in '68 before I changed, so I had been mostly voting Democratic. I kept my registration. At that time I thought the local Republican party had lost some of its liberality in race relations and that the Democrats were ahead of them.

TK: Okay, and you were elected in that race, correct?

NT: Right.

TK: But none of the other slate were?

NT: No, I think they ended up running with Thornberry.

TK: So could you tell me a little bit about that position then? How long you held it and what it was like?

NT: It was four years.

TK: Four years.

NT: Right.

TK: So that was what, 1968 to '72?

NT: No, no, '69 to '73.

TK: I'm assuming that during the time that you were in that position you couldn't do Civil Rights work?

NT: No, no, no. You could actually, it was strange, you couldn't practice criminal law, you could do some civil work.

TK: Could you just, even though you're not yourself engaging in activism at that time, could you just describe to me some of the, what else is going on in terms of Civil Rights and black equality during those years?

NT: I have to tell you I have to get my years . . .

TK: This would have been the early seventies.

NT: Tell me something that was going on, maybe I can . . .

TK: Actually what I forgot that I wanted to ask you about now that I think about it, I've almost skipped it, is the riot in '68. Do you have any memories of that?

NT: Iit was my recollection that it was started at Twenty-eighth and Green . . .

TK: Greenwood.

NT: Greenwood, yes. I remember I had just come from a meeting, I was on the Board of Education, just come from a meeting and was going down to, I was headed to SCLC headquarters, the headquarters at Twenty-eighth and Greenwood. Apparently as I understand the background, before I came out they had a speaking occasion. There was some concern in the community because two young, I think one was a teacher the other was a young businessman. One fellow was named Manford Reid, uh . . . unnecessary harass and hassle by police and there was complaints and so forth and there was a lot of disturbance arose out of that. They were having a meeting at Twenty-eighth and Greenwood and as I understand it, I was not there during the actually speaking, but as I understand a fellow got on a 48:00soapbox and said, "Look. . . ." Oh Stokely Carmichael; he was advertising Stokely Carmichael was going to be there! So as I understand it one of the speakers got up and said, "See that plane circling overhead. That's Stokely Carmichael and they won't let it land!" And all the folks got excited and I guess there were a few police officers there and I don't know what happened to make it happen, but they retreated and they were throwing bottles and bricks and so forth, some of the folks, at the police officers. I think that was the beginning of the riot. When I came now I saw all of this going on, you know, places were beginning to start to burn and police were taking shelter on 49:00rooftops of buildings and so forth.

TK: And how far did it spread?

NT: Geographically, I can't tell you block wise. I know it was all around that area probably for many blocks and then I think there was sporadic, you know, maybe attacks on businesses outside of that direct area.

TK: What kind of affect do you think the riot had?

NT: I think it kind of wakened the community. I mean, you know, the community wasn't all right, there was a lot of dissatisfaction and unrest in the black community.

TK: You know around this same time nationally people are starting to talk about the Black Power movement, and I'm wondering did that I have much influence here in Louisville?

NT: I think it had, I don't if you had people . . . I think it had influence. I don't know if you had people out advocating strongly. There were a few folks who were aligned with so-called Black Power movement.

TK: Were you at all interested in those kinds of ideas?

NT: Well it depends on what you mean when you say Black Power. It does give you a lot of interpretations. I was on the march to Mississippi. During that time I was president of NAACP. There was a march that they had in Jackson and I think that's when Black Power first came into the floor.

TK: Right, I've read about that. So you were there at that march?

NT: Was at that march.

TK: That's interesting! Yeah, actually I'm trying to learn more about Black Power because I realize there are a lot of ways that you can define, it depends sort of how you define it.

NT: Right, right. So I want to give you this background. There were people that were Black Power advocates that were going around. They had handed out American flags, and you know, people were marching, waving flags. As I say, some of the Black Power advocates were going around taking the flags and there was some people, including myself, that was almost was willing to fight before they were giving up the flags. So they saw it was a ( ) or something, and hit all of us. You know, some people ( ) Black Power, I guess it could in the extreme, could be argued that it means black superiority. I don't think it actually means that, I think it means strengthening, you know, blacks strengthen themselves so that 52:00they can have power to participate and contribute to the total community. You know, until you get yourself together it's very difficult to go out and really compete and to make a contribution to the total community.

TK: Yeah, that's, when I talk to other people that sounds a lot like what they say, that here in Louisville there was, you know, interest building the black community but not in a separatism that you got in some other places, very much. So were you still here when the busing issue came up? [Short pause] Hello?

NT: Oh I'm listening. The busing issue, yes.

TK: Yeah you were still here?

NT: Right.

TK: Yeah, how did that come up?

NT: Now I think that's time that I was, that must have been the years that I was on the bench.

TK: Yeah.

NT: And I remember, and I think you may or may not have talked to Darryl Owens?

TK: Yeah, but only very briefly.

NT: He was one of the lawyers, he and Tom Hogan, who's passed.

TK: Yeah, I've heard that name a lot.

NT: He was involved in a lot of the busing cases. If he was the prime I don't know, but he was one of the leading lawyers. One thing interesting about Tom, he was a friend, on at least three occasions he was attacked.

TK: Really!

NT: Yeah, he incidentally he was this white fellow, and you know, like he would go into a grocery store or a liquor store or something, and "You that Tom Hogan?" And wham! I know it happened on at least three occasions.

TK: My goodness! I didn't know that!

NT: Yeah, but anyway how that came about I think Darryl could probably give you more direct information than I can. But my recollection is, and this is second 54:00hand to this, that it started with Newburg Elementary. The black schools had just tried to get that integrated and the county board was so obstinate that it spread to the whole city and county. That's my recollection, but again Darryl could give you more specifics.

TK: Okay. That's interesting. Now did you run for any other offices here in town?

NT: I ran for state senate. I lost to Georgia Davis who was the incumbent.

TK: When was that?

NT: Maybe '73, '73-'75.

TK: And then was your term up in '73?

NT: Yes.

TK: Okay and you didn't run for re-election?

NT: No.

TK: This may be a touchy subject, but I'm going to ask and you can chose not to answer it if you like, but I've heard several people make comments like, "They ran Neville out of town," that sort of thing. If it's not too sensitive of a 55:00subject could you explain to me how you came to leave Louisville?

NT: Well I couldn't make a living! You know I lost my bar license. I had to go somewhere to make a living. My sister was here [ California], was in business and I came and started working for her.

TK: How did you lose your bar license?

NT: Well it was a young lady, I had settled the case, and they were there in Washington and there was a ticket mix-up and I had to get them a ticket. So I went to get a ticket on my American Express card. So I withheld part of this, I think it was about six or seven hundred dollars for these tickets. And I delayed getting the money back to them, you know.

TK: And then after that, that's when you left?

NT: Right.

TK: And did you go straight to California at that time?

NT: Yes.

TK: And what year was that?

NT: I would say "77,'78, maybe '78.

TK: Okay, so around '78. Let's see did I miss any major Civil Rights activity that you did while you were here?

NT: I don't think so.

TK: Okay, I just want to make sure. The one thing that I meant to ask you about that we somehow skipped is the March on Frankfort. Were you involved in that at all?

NT: I was not directly involved in that. I think that was AOCR.

TK: Yeah.

NT: I was supportive but directly, I didn't take part in it, I wasn't directly involved.

[ Tucker had to get off the phone. End of interview ]

12

29