Interview with Sandra Wainwright, March 16, 2000

START OF SIDE A, TAPE I

Tracy K'Meyer:Can you tell me when and where you were born?

Sandra Wainwright:Oh yeah, right here in Louisville.

TK:In Louisville? But not on this block?

SW:No, no. Are you kidding? This is very much Portland. You better not show your face down here when I was a little girl. No, I was born in General Hospital. My parents lived on 13th Street, right across from the old Escord Service School. That school had been a hospital before, from what I can understand. We lived right across. I have one little picture, maybe two, of sitting on the steps, my brother and I, before Beecher Terrace. Beecher Terrace was built and we were one of the first to move into Beecher Terrace. So we lived at 413 South 10th Street at Beecher Terrace. I was born in 1937, August 25. I guess when I was about a 1:00couple of years old that must have been when we moved to Beecher Terrace and we lived there until I was around twelve or thirteen years old. I remember I used to walk home from Madison Junior High School. I was in junior high school. I didn't have any money. I lost my bus token or something like that, and you had to walk from 18th Street to 3210 ( ) Mill. That's where my mother lived. But I was a good walker. I never minded it very much. So I would walk home. I remember living in Beecher Terrace and then coming home and having all those wonderful things at home that you did not have at an apartment. It was great. So, when we 2:00moved on ( ) Mill it was like a new, wonderful home. I mean, when we lived in Beecher Terrace there were two bedrooms and we had four in our family. Well, six when you count momma and daddy. But Ned and Donald had the top bunk bed and Ruthie and I had the bottom bunk bed. And we were on the second floor of Beecher Terrace. When we moved down on ( ) we had this big upstairs that the boys had. And Ruthie and I shared a bedroom and momma and daddy had their own bedroom. It was wonderful. And my grandpa came, we had a furnace then that you had to put 3:00coal in. I can always remember way back in September they would start getting the coal, you know, because you had to get it in time. You couldn't, you know, my parents couldn't afford a lot. So they would just get coal to last through the winter. And my grandpa would come he lived we were fortunate because at the garage there was a little two room place back there. My grandpa lived back there.

TK:Did your grandfather own the garage?

SW:No, no, that was just part of momma and daddy's house. It was a separate thing all by itself. And grandpa lived upstairs. That was really nice. And he would come every morning and fix that fire. And it would be so nice and cozy warm when you got up and got ready to go to school. I just loved it. It was really nice to live in Beecher Terrace.

TK:What did your parents do?

SW:My daddy was a postman. At first he worked at ( ). I can kind of remember when he told momma that he was going to take the test to be a postman. Daddy hadn't gone to school. See, daddy had to stop school when he was ten or eleven. He had only gotten a fourth grade education. So he had to go to night school at Central High School so that he could get his education. In fact, my daddy went to Simmons Bible College and got his degree from there. He was a smart man. But he was the second oldest of sixteen children. Well, let me tell you honey, there 5:00were sixteen on my daddy's side but there were sixteen on my mother's side. My mother used to say and grandpa used to say, 'well, I had seventeen but momma said she'd never ( ) with sixteen.

TK:What was their family name?

SW:Gazaway. That was my mother's name. My daddy's name was, he was Augustine Harris.

TK:So your maiden name is Harris?

SW:Yeah, my name is Sandra Harris Wainwright. And one of the things, people used to laugh at him because his first name was Augustine. Everybody thought that was a girlie name. But if you know anything about the black race, you know that back in those days they gave names to their children of very important people because 6:00they wanted their children to grow up to be wise. I have an uncle Warren Harding, you know. Like Augustine. And uncle James, his name is, we called him uncle J.D., I can't remember what his name was. I think I knew about eight of them. There was only two of them no, he just died. Blanch is still alive. Margaret is still alive out of those sixteen.

TK:Did they all stay in Louisville?

SW:Oh no, no, no. Well, Blanch lives right across from that Shawnee little well, we can't really call it a complex. It's not a mall but it's like that. She lives right across from there. And I don't know where aunt Margaret is. I think she's 7:00sick. I've just kind of lost contact with her but I know she hasn't passed. I don't think uncle Victor has passed either.

TK:That's a lot of relatives.

SW:Yeah. And uncle Sonny is Californian. That's right. I forgot him. We have two guys uncle Victor and uncle Sonny. I forgot who he was named after but he was named after somebody. The girls weren't particularly named after anybody. But they guys were. In fact, that was my daddy's side. But on my mother's side they had sixteen children. And everybody, momma was the last who passed. She passed in '81. They all had problems with death by strokes. They called them cerebral 8:00hemorrhage and all that a long time ago. But from what I can understand and what I try to pass on to my children is that you keep and watch your weight because uncle James and uncle Willy, uncle Tom passed, uncle Charles passed with a stroke. Aunt Margaret and aunt Mary did not pass with a stroke. She went to Red Cross Hospital and that's the only one that would let blacks go in. But what they did who would know they left the scissors in her. That's what they tell me. That's what they passed down to me. That aunt Mary died because they left some scissors or something inside her and she died. Now, I remember my aunt Mary. She 9:00lived on 13th Street right above aunt Claire. Aunt Claire, she was so precious. She was just a precious, fat little lady but she was just as nice as she could be. She married a man named uncle Julius. And aunt ( ) married uncle Tom. Well, uncle Tom was momma's brother. I just knew aunt ( ). I always think that if that happened nowadays you would have sued. But they just said it was a big mistake and they just went on and buried aunt Mary. Now that's what they told me. I can just remember. She was kind of I don't remember how old she was, but maybe thirty, thirtyfive years old. If she was that old, I'm not even sure. So, I'll tell you you don't want to hear about ( ).

TK:So you moved to Dumesnil and your father became a postman.

SW:Yes, he became a postman. And then he also was called to the ministry. So he 10:00continued to be a postman until he retired from that. And he continued to be a minister. He pastored Park Ridge Baptist Church in Sparta, Kentucky for I think twenty years.

TK:Did you continue to live here while he was doing that?

SW:Oh yes, yes. We still lived on ( ). I was a baby girl. I stayed at home. I went to UofL.

TK:You said you went to Madison Junior High and then

SW:The only school we could go to was Central High School. Now, we were the first ones to come into the new Central High School, therefore there was (interruption) We went to the new Central High School. It was great to go to a school that was new. I hadn't been to a school that was new, I don't know. 11:00Madison Junior High School, I don't believe was new when we got it but that's where we were. But we went to Central and had wonderful teachers. Great teachers. Loved every minute of it. In fact, I went back after my husband passed and said a few words to some people who received the Warren Wainwright award. And I stayed there for four years.

TK:I'm trying to get the years straight. Would school integration be just as you were finishing?

SW:Yes, yes. See, I graduated from Central High School in '55, University of Louisville in '59. Sometime between '55 and '59 they started integrating and people started saying I'm going to have to go to Male and things like that.

TK:What was it like going to UofL?

SW:In music school, I believe it was sixteen freshman in the Music School. Two of us were black, Jean Cooper and myself. Jean Cooper was valedictorian. I was number thirtyone in my class but I was happy. It didn't make any difference to me. I mean, I know I didn't always work as hard as I should. In fact, I got a D in PE one time because I was too busy with chorus and things and I didn't go to PE. And the teacher was just kind enough to give me a D. She could have failed me. But I had a lot of things to do when I was at Central High School. I had my own tenth grade ensemble. My music teacher, Ms. Nana Crew, realized that I had 13:00some kind of talent and she just helped me to learn as much as I could. I played the organ. I can remember when Jackie Robinson came to Central High School I played the organ for him. I got his autograph and I lost my wallet that had his name in it. And I got a chance to play for Eleanor Roosevelt. And I got her autograph. And Jackie Robinson was just so close to me, and I lost that wallet and never got it back. After that I said if I ever got anybody else's autograph I would just always put it in my scrapbook. But I enjoyed being at Central High School. I was a quiet person. The only people knew me that I played the piano and/or the organ. That I did my work the best I could and all that kind of 14:00stuff. But I wasn't what you called I didn't go to a lot of parties. I was just in fact they voted me, I think, mother of the class because they were going to do something ugly to one of the teachers. You know, at the end when you ( ) somebody something. I would not call the teacher's name. But they told me 'we're going to mail her some Listerine mouthwash.' I said, 'oh no you don't. You will not hurt that lady. She has been too good to us for you leave her with (interruption) like that.' So, that's when they named me mother of the senior 15:00class. I didn't care because I was always saying you don't do those kinds of things to people. You wouldn't like anybody to say that about you. Don't you do it. And they really listened to me. They just didn't always invite me to their parties. But that was all right. I still tend to be that way. I'm the first one to say and I would tell my class the good rule is do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Not do unto others as they have already done unto you. If you do that, that's not the golden rule. That's just the way I feel. I don't like it when people hurt one another in any kind of way. I really don't. It 16:00bothers me tremendously. And I guess that's why when we started those sitins I got involved. I don't remember much about being I mean, I remember being the secretary. I remember the marches. I remember Dr. Martin Luther King. I remember when he went to Quinn Chapel. I remember when he came to Zion. And he would talk to us and he told us 'if they spit on you, you just keep walking.' And I kept thinking nobody's going to do that to me. I know they're not going to do that. And he said, 'when you go down to sit down, you sit there and you behave. You don't say any bad words.' Well see, I don't cuss anyway. I never have. I never wanted to. So I just kind of said well I'll try this. My mother said it was Ok 17:00and my daddy said it was Ok. He didn't mind. He said, 'I just don't want you getting in jail, but we're behind you one hundred percent. Because we want you to live in a better world than what we have lived in. I said ok. And we would go there and most of the time I played the piano for the opening, We Shall Overcome. And we would probably sing Gentle Savior, Leaning on the Everlasting Arms. A couple of church songs. If they were Muslims we didn't know that. Everybody was either Methodist or Baptist or Catholic. We all kind of knew the same songs. We would sing things and then we would join hands. They would have prayer and start walking down from Quinn Chapel up to 4th Street. We would walk over to the name of that Restaurant, it's on the corner of Eastern Parkway.

TK:Blue Boar?

SW:Blue Boar, yes. And we would have a sitin. Sit down in front of them. We would sit there sometimes after school until six or seven in the night time. Then we would have to go home and study. But I guess we just didn't mind. It wasn't so bad at the beginning. But some times, I tell you, one time this guy, I was walking and he spit on me. And I looked and I thought, Oh my God. But he told us not to, he said just take your Kleenex and wipe it off. Don't say anything. And you know, you have to think about that. And they call you bad 19:00names. I didn't like being called bad names. But you just did. I remember when we went to Walgreen's or Taylor's. It was on 4th Street, two door down from Woolworth. We sat in at the lunch counter. Went there every day. Those people refused to give us anything. So finally, after about fifteen or twenty days, I wish I had kept better records. I can just remember, this lady got on the telephone then she came back and she said, 'all right, what do you want?' Just like that. And silly old me, I didn't have much money, I think thirtyfive cents and I think an egg salad sandwich cost twentyfive. I said, 'I'll take an egg 20:00salad sandwich.' Girl, she gave me about that much egg. But they told us at the church, that if they serve you that's all you want. You can get to the rest of it later on. Now, George Alexander he ordered some kind of luncheon plate where you got some roast beef and mashed potatoes. And he had a nice, decent plate. But I'll never forget, I looked at that little sandwich and I thought, is this ( ). But we did it. That was the first time that they served us downtown. It's just so many things that I remember about being downtown. How my mother would say, 'now Sandra, you go to the bathroom before you leave home. Because you have no place to go.' At that time momma and daddy didn't have a checking account at 21:00anybody's bank. Daddy just brought the money home and gave it to mamma and mamma did the bills. We went to places and paid them. We lived at 413 S. 10th Street at the time. I would walk up to the Water Company or the Gas and Light Company and pay the bill. Sometimes candy was really cheap. You could get candy corns and peanuts. And you'd go in and I'd ask for a nickels worth of peanuts and a nickel's worth of candy corn. But sometimes I would have to wait until every white person was gone before they would wait on me. Then, we weren't allowed to just stand there. Everyone ( ) just forget it because you had to take it out and go eat. Eat on your way down the street or whatever. But I think about all those kind of little things and I wonder how I made it through without being mad at 22:00people. But then I started thinking my philosophy. I'm going to treat people the way I want to be treated. So when I went to the University of Louisville, I didn't have a hard time. The two of us, Jean and myself now, I think that James Furman was ahead of me. . . he was an upper classman. I don't remember what year. Seemed like he might have been one or two years ahead of me. But it just so happened that in the Music School I was accepted ok. I was intelligent enough. I went there on work scholarship. They had me playing for the ( ) 23:00Department. Then I had to play for violinists in their lessons. Tuba, anybody who needed somebody to play for them. I was supposed to play for them. I also worked in the library. And at that time we were at Garden Court, and if the last bus left at 6:00 and you missed it, you had to walk to Cherokee Park to get to the bus stop. I would miss that bus sometimes because I wouldn't be finished with all of the things that Ms. Carter had told me to type up or whatever. And I'd have to walk to that park. Nowadays, you wouldn't think about doing that. You would not think about it. Not at all. But then, I would just do that. I 24:00would get over to Frankfort Avenue. Some way I would go and I would get over to a little Oak Street that I would catch near the cemetery. That would take me on home.

TK:Was Garden Court part of the school at that time?

SW:Yeah, Garden Court was the music school. And then after I left Garden Court, they brought the one that's out on Shelbyville Road. Now they have that beautiful building. In fact, I bought one of the seats in the auditorium. I said yes, I was a part of this school. They might see Sandra Harris Wainwright and wonder who she was or whatever. But my name is on one of those chairs there. It was just all those kinds of things. Little things that you think about that you wouldn't do nowadays. In fact, some mornings if the bus was late because it only 25:00came once and I had an 8:00 class. So if you tried to get from 3222 ( ) transferring two times to get out to Eastern Parkway, to get the one bus that comes to the school, and you missed it you just started walking and hoped to goodness somebody would be coming through that morning to pick you up on the way. But many a day I just walked. I was sometimes late to class. But my theory teacher at Central had prepared me so well that my first year I tutored several students in the Music School for theory. I can only thank Ms. Nanna Crews for that because she was sharp and I was glad that she saw that I had some kind of little talent. I didn't think I was smart, smart, smart, I just thought that I 26:00was just me.

TK:Can I ask a question, when you were talking about ( ) like going down to the candy store and things like that, do you remember when you were little, when did you become aware of racial prejudice? How did you learn about it as a kid?

SW:I think we always knew. Because we knew. If I went to the store, if I went to Bacon's with momma. Now, Bacon's was always pretty nice. Now, they had a colored sign up there at the door in the beginning. But they took that colored sign down. I don't know exactly when. But remember, Bacon's was way over there on Market and I was way over on Chestnut Street most of the time. So if you had to go to the bathroom, if you tried to run all the way to Market to go to Bacon's, you didn't even go inside Stewart's. I can remember see, my mother's mother was 27:00a very, very fair skinned lady. She had Indian, I guess that's how we got all the different colors that we have. But momma told me that her mother would go to Stewart's because she looked like she was white. She would buy some clothes. But just for the average black woman or black girl, I mean, I was eighteen years the first time I ever walked into Stewart's. You just knew. You just did not go into that store. You just did not. I don't remember ever sitting, but my sister did. My sister went to jail for going to Stewart's.

TK:What isour sister's name?

SW:Ruth Ellen Harris. Ruth Ellen Harris Thomas now. But Ruthie went to jail. In fact, a whole bunch of them went to jail. And it was my mother who called and said you have had those kids up there too long. Have you fed them yet? It wasn't long after that that they let them go. And I thought, 'oh, this is so wrong.'

TK:Is Ruth younger than you?

SW:Yes, I'm the second oldest. My brother Ned now, Ned didn't do a lot of things that I did.

TK:It was just the four of you, right?

SW:Just the four of us.

TK:I want to make sure I get my timing right. So, when you were doing the marches and stuff that you were doing, was that in the 1961 demonstrations or was that the late fifties?

SW:That was in the late fifties. We were some of the first to do it. Ruthie and her group now, Ruthie ended up being something else with the NAACP. I don't know if she was first vicepresident or something like that. But I was much before. I was there when Dr. King told us how to act and what to do and what they expected.

TK:How did you get involved with the NAACP and all that stuff?

SW:I think it was just something that probably happened at school and they

TK:When you were at college?

SW:Well, some of it, it seems like let me get my things let's see, I was at the last year of Central High School and the first year at the Univeristy of Louisville. I think it was more like sometime between there. We did a lot of 30:00this in the summertime. I remember it was a summer. Very hot. So it had to be like, '55, summer of '55 or maybe summer of '56. I can go downstairs and see if I have any papers downstairs.

TK:I can look that up too.

SW:I just remember it being hot. I don't remember marching much in the cold. Not much.

TK:Would this have been after the Montgomery bus boycott? Because you mentioned Martin Luther King.

SW:Yes.

END OF SIDE A

START OF SIDE B

TK:So did you hear a lot about the Montgomery boycott?

SW:Yes, and at that time we had TV.

TK:You did or didn't?

SW:We did. My family finally got one. It took us a long time to get a TV but we finally got one. Everybody came by my house to look at the TV. We could see some of the same things that still sends chills when I look at those old films. And you think. And I was just so sorry that I was not able to go when they did the march on Washington. I wanted to go so badly. But something happened and my daddy said I couldn't go. And I didn't get to go. And I regretted that day ever since. Oh, I would have loved to have been there. Oh, yes I would have. Because I knew for what we were standing and I knew that if we kept living long enough things were going to change. I was hoping, who knows. But I can't think. It was 32:00just a lot of, so many little things and a lot of big things too. When I got my degree I couldn't well, even before I got my degree they had only one school that I could go to for my senior, my senior year, for me to be a student teacher. And at that particular year James Furman had a bad time with Ms. Lillian Carpenter. She decided she wasn't going to have another student teacher. But I was the only one left. There were no white people who wanted to be bothered with me. And I thought, I told my mother, I said 'momma, I've gone four years and nobody wants me to student teach in their school. Ms. Carpenter don't want me anymore.' That's what I said. I know I said it that way. I talked better 33:00most of the time. But she doesn't want me. Momma said, 'we are going to pray about this and something will happen.' And sure enough, there was a lady, Ms. Jesse I can't forget her name. It will come to me called the University of Louisville School of Music, and said that she would accept me as a student teacher for the elementary schools. I had to go to six different schools Berrytown, Griffytown, Jtown and two others, I can't remember what they were. Little bitty schools. I didn't even know we had them. One morning not just one morning but several mornings, I think it was at Berrytown, I had to put the ( ) 34:00in the outhouse. We still had them. I had to make the fire in the little cubby, that little pot bellied stove over there. This was in the sixties. So I mean, all that marching that we did, it kind of helped a little bit. But didn't help a whole lot because we still had schools who were one room and two room. A couple of schools had first, second and third in that room over there. Fourth, fifth and sixth in this room over there. And it was just and the best school was, of course, Jtown. Because they had a real school. It was like I was going to some place special. But all the other four schools had just one or two room places. It's amazing. It just is. And the same thing with the books. Those little schools had used books. In fact, we still had used books when I was teaching at 35:00Salsbury Elementary School. But I was to be the first black teacher at Brandeis. They told me, they called me in and said, 'now we would like for you to go to Brandeis Elementary School.' I said, Lord I have been through all of this before. ( ). He said, 'it's going to be a white faculty and you're going to be teaching mostly white people. Are you willing? I said, 'look, I did it all through music school. I can do it. I can do it.' But it's so funny and this is the thing that always gets me. I was not supposed to go there until they finished the new building. They had a new section that they were adding on to 36:00Brandeis, where I was supposed to go. So I had to teach at Salsbury for half a year. From September to December. And I want you to know, I can remember wanting scissors, you know, plain old scissors to have children make cut out things. We would have to write a note to the office. Tell the office what day and what time we wanted to borrow the scissors. They gave us like, fifteen or twenty paperclips, fifteen or twenty thumbtacks. In that day we had jars of paint. And we would go down into the basement. And each teacher was allowed like, two tablespoons of white, two tablespoons of blue, green, orange and purple. You would put them in your little cups and take it upstairs and the children would paint. All those kinds of things when I was at Salsbury. Now, this is from 37:00September to December. We moved to Salsbury, I had a telephone in my room. I could not believe it. I said Ohhhh.

TK:This is at Brandeis?

SW:This is at Brandeis, in the new section. I go to Brandeis and I get on the phone because it's almost art time. I want to have some scissors because I didn't have any in my classroom. So I remember asking the secretary, I said because before I had to write it, but I had the telephone, so they said when you want something from the office you just pick up the telephone and call. I said, Ohhh, this is great. So I get on the phone and I say, 'this is Ms. Harris, Room 3 (whatever I was) I would like to borrow twentyeight, no, make it twentynine, 38:00because I want to have a pair of scissors for me. And I would like fifteen thumbtacks, and twenty paperclips.' And the lady said, '( ) what are you saying?' I said, 'well, I need some scissors and I'll have them back to you by ' because we had to have them back. If we said we wanted them from 1:00 to 2:00, we had to have them back at 2:00. So she said, 'Ms. Harris, would you just ' Oh, and I was telling her about the paint. I said 'I don't know where I'm going to get the paint. So if you tell me where to get the paint and I can bring some baby food jars home.' She said, 'Ms. Harris, write down what you need.' I couldn't believe it. And I said, 'I need thumbtacks, paperclips, paint, I need construction paper ' You've got three sheets of each color and you shared 39:00whatever you had in your classroom. And I wrote down all this stuff. They did not only send me twentyeight, they sent me thirtysix pairs of scissors. And they said they are yours for the year. They gave me a whole box of paperclips. A whole box of tacks. Erasers, chalk, crayons. I though I was in heaven. And then, on top of that, all those books that we had at Salsbury. Those old raggedy books. I had brand new books at this new white school.

TK:Where was Salsbury?

SW:Salsbury is on the corner it's not there now, it's an old junkstore. It's on the corner of 22nd and Madison or Magazine. I get those mixed up. It's closest 40:00to Broadway. It's really tall. And on the third floor, we had fire drills and we had to go round on those circle things to get out.

TK:So that was primarily black kids, I'm assuming?

SW:Oh yeah. It's all very black. So we took all these black kids over to the new school. We didn't know how to act. But we tried to be Ok.

TK:And you were teaching more than just music then?

SW:Ok, let's put it like this. I was supposed to be I wanted to be a music teacher. My first year I taught at Jackson Junior High School. They didn't have any positions for me at any black schools. So I substituted for a while. Then they sent me to Jackson Junior High School to take over Geneve Churchill's place. She was pregnant. She was supposed to be gone from September to December. 41:00Then she decided she wanted to stay with her baby a little bit longer. So she took the whole year off. Let me back up. The year before I went to Jackson I met a lady who was teaching piano. She was a white lady. For the life of me I can not remember her name. But she had all these electric keyboards and she was trying to teach whole groups of children. We went to Virginia Avenue, Foster at 17th and whatever. I went to three schools. Virginia Avenue now is Audubon. What was that other school? I think it's gone. But there were three schools. She had all her electrical equipment. And I taught with her like on Tuesdays and Thursdays. And then on the other days I substituted for any of the black schools 42:00that needed a teacher. Now sometimes, I was fortunate and got music. Other times, I got anything that they had. Then after I did that, that's when they told me that Geneve Churchill was going to be out for half a year. Would I sub at Jackson Junior High School for her? I said, well sure. Then, when they talked to Geneve some more she said she just wasn't going to do it. So they called me back and asked if I would sub for the whole year. My salary was $4,000. I thought I was rich. Do you hear me? I thought I was rich. But anyway, I did that. And then the next year I started teaching regular school because something 43:00opened up. Well, after I started teaching Jackson then I was hired to go on and go to Salsbury. For half a year and then to Brandeis. Then from December to June I was still at Jackson. So I was at Jackson for a whole year. And then after that I went on and they hired me at Salsbury and then I went to Brandeis. I stayed at Brandeis until 196? let's see, I got married in '64 and Faith was born in '66. At that time you couldn't be pregnant in school. Faith was born in 44:00August. So I started showing and I had to wear dresses like this. Because Ms. Briden saw, around May she said, 'now Sandra, if I called you on the phone don't leave the room.' ( ) because my belly was starting to show. I was what? Seven months? Yeah, seven, eight, nine because she was born in August.

TK:Did you go back to work after she was born?

SW:Nooo. That's when I took off. I took off that big guy that you just saw he was a surprise. He was a real surprise. I was having my six month checkup and my doctor said 'I'll see you in about three weeks.' I said, 'is something wrong?' He said, 'no, I just think you're expecting again.' And I didn't know how to tell my husband.

TK:How did you meet your husband? You said his name was Warren

SW:Warren Lee Wainwright. He was a coach.

TK:Is he from here?

SW:Uh huh. I would have met him at Central High School but I told you I was quiet. He was a year ahead of me. He didn't remember me either. We might have met each other one Christmas but that wasn't on New Years Eve. That didn't work either. I was an organist at a church. His mother came up to me and said, 'I have a son who is a coach. Coaches at ( ) Kentucky and he comes in on the weekend. And I wish you would he doesn't do anything, and I know you must know some nice girls. I would just like for you to meet him.' And I though, oh Lord. So I told her, 'I'll tell you, have him come to my church. Choir rehearsal is 46:00next Friday night. When choir rehearsal is over I'll meet him. And we'll take it from there.' I didn't even know her name. But now I know it's Mrs. Wainwright. So, I was sitting on the organ and it got to be I left the choir a little bit earlier. Looked in the mirror to make sure everything was Ok. I had a mirror on my organ so I could see the back of this church. And I thought, ok, where is this Negro? I was waiting. And then finally the door opened and this big guy came through. I said oh my God. I just looked at him. He came over and said, 'are you Ms. Harris?' I said yes. He said, 'I'm Warren Wainwright.' By that time someone from the church said 'turn off the lights.' I said, 'I'll tell you what. 47:00My daddy's coming to pick me up ' Because at that time I didn't know how to drive. I might have. Yeah, I did. But somehow my daddy was picking me up. I said 'my daddy is going to take home. Stop by my house and we'll talk a little bit tonight.' He said he went home and told his mother. She said, 'you're going to her house at 10:00 at night?' He said 'well she asked me to.' And so he got there. He knew my brother from school. They talked for a solid half an hour. I got mad as a dog. But then finally Ned went on upstairs. Then it was just Warren and myself. And he asked, 'well can we go to the movies tomorrow?' They just opened up the movies downtown. We went to the Rialto, we sat up really high to see the Wonderful World of Brothers Grimm. Can you believe that? First date. And 48:00that's what we did. This was in see, I married him '64 so I knew him a couple of years. About '62.

TK:Now, during this time, because you talked about how your younger sister had been involved in some of this stuff. During that phase of the sitins, did you get involved at all?

SW:No, for some reason I can't remember why I wasn't as involved with this. Because Ruthie was. She was just gung ho. She and I are different as night as day. We love each other. What I can do she can't and what she can do I do. But Ruthie was sharp. She graduated summa cum laude from Morris Brown College. Just sharp. She could memorize. I would have to study hard to get all of my things. 49:00Ruthie would look at it and it's like she had a photogenic memory. So it could have been the time I was mainly I must have been at one of these jobs that I was doing that I wasn't able to get off and do what they were doing right after school. See, because I remember we did sometimes go right after school for some things. We had the NAACP meeting at the YMCA at 10th and Chestnut. I don't remember the days of that either. When I turn my records back in boy, if I had only know. Wouldn't that be wonderful? I should go downstairs and get those records out and say, hey, this is what we did.

TK:Who did you turn them into?

SW:Whoever was the president of the NAACP. Because it was the NAACP youth council and so we had to turn our records in at the end of each year.

TK:What exactly did the youth council do that was different from the

SW:Big people? I think we were the ones who did more of the walking. We were younger and we handled it better. And we didn't have such fixed ideas. Now, my husband said he never would. He knew about it. He said if anybody ever spit on him he would knock him down. Kill him. I said we don't need people like you. Even now not now, because he's passed away

TK:Was he as big as your son is?

SW:My husband was not tall. But he was a big guy. When I married him, I never will forget when the doctor said he weighed 298 pounds then. He said, 'I don't 51:00want you to go on a diet on your honeymoon. But the honeymoon's over.'

TK:Were your parents ever in the NAACP

SW:Not really. Momma never worked. She was a stay at home person period. We had supper every day at 5:15. Daddy would come in from the post office. He would take his clothes off. Read the morning paper. If you missed 5:15 you didn't eat. No matter where you were. You better be home at 5:15. The table was set. We sat down and said a blessing and that was one of those interesting things. Daddy would say the big main blessing and we had to say a bible scripture. One evening, momma fixed this fantastic meal and it was Ruthie, Donald and myself. 52:00Daddy said this long prayer and we said 'God is love, Jesus is love. Daddy looked at us and said 'get up from this table. Go and get the Bible and find what I haven't heard and come back in here with another scripture.' And girl, we had to get up from the table and go find a brand new scripture. Memorize it and then come back to the table. That's the only way we got to eat that night. Needless to say, we never did that again. God is love, Jesus the two shortest verses in the Bible. They don't really count. I don't know what I learned but it was something else that was different.

TK:Now, you said that they had supported you when you did marches. As you were growing up, what did they teach you about how to respond to all these incidents 53:00of prejudice?

SW:Momma said you can use words. You don't have to ever cuss at anybody. I never heard my momma cuss in her life. Daddy, as I said, was a preacher. So being a preacher's kid and then also playing the church, leading the choir and all that kind of stuff, you don't do negative things. I would sometimes sit on the step that goes upstairs and listen to daddy council a couple of people. Even when I was older I would say, 'Daddy, how do you keep all that stuff from coming out. You know so much about people's lives.' He said and everybody called me sister 'sister, when people give you confidence you put it in your heart and leave it there.' See, that's the kind of man daddy was. You put it in your heart and you 54:00leave it there. And that's helped me all these years. When people at the church tell me things and they say 'oh Ms. Wainwright, please don't tell anybody.' I say, 'oh, it's in my heart. Only the Lord and I and you now, if you tell somebody else that's not my problem. But it's sealed in my heart, ok?' And that's the kind of people that they were. Momma always said 'you don't need a curse word. There are too many other good words.' When some of my children sometimes, even in school, would come out I would tell them to think of another word to use instead of that word. I didn't punish children in a negative way. I would say 'sit down and write me a letter and tell me what happened.' And they would have to write. All of them. And you get a fair share of what's going to go on. Especially if there were any problem children. Sit down and you tell me what 55:00happened. And then I hear what Johnny did over there and what Susie did over there. And you put them all together. Then I'll say 'oh, I understand the story now.' Because if you take them all outside in the hall what's going to happen? I didn't say that! Nu uh, I learned that a long time ago. I don't know who taught me that. I just must have felt it. In fact, sometimes in the children's choir now, I'll say 'I just want you to write Ms. Wainwright a letter and tell me what happened today.' And they go on. So momma and daddy, they were positive people. See, momma's daddy lived not in Louisville. But he was on ( ). Grandpa died when 56:00he was ninety one. But one day, he killed a white man or something. A train came, grandpa jumped on the train. But in the meantime, he hit something and knocked his eye out. So he had a glass eye. As long as I've ever known grandpa. Grandpa was the one who told me how he got the glass eye. He was trying to jump on the train. He got on the train. But in trying to jump on the train he injured his eye. That was grandpa ( ). That's where he was living.

TK:Is that how he got to Louisville?

SW:Yeah, he got to Louisville and stayed here after that. Grandpa was a nice old gentleman.

TK:A couple of questions about when you said you sort of got involved in the 57:00NAACP Youth Council when you were in high school

SW:I was in high school, early college, like that. I believe so.

TK:And you said that you were an officer of some sort.

SW:Yes, I was a secretary for a couple of years. Why can't I remember any dates? I don't have Alzheimer's disease, I just have ( ).

TK:My dad has a phrase for it but it involves a curse word I won't use. That's ok, because we know it was roughly between 1956 and 1959. Do you remember who else was in that organization with you? Any other people? I know you mentioned 58:00George Alexander before.

SW:And. . .what was his first name? I can see him just as clear as day.

TK:Was it a very big organization?

SW:I think we had about fifteen or twenty kids at the beginning. But when it was march time and we announced it at Central High School or whatever, we would have a hundred. And we would always ( ) so nicely.

TK:Did you get involved in the Porgy & Bess demonstrations?

SW:No, I don't remember that.

TK:That was in 1959.

SW:What happened? Let me see. .

TK:Movie theater.

SW:No.

TK:It was like December of '59.

SW:I don't remember that at all.

TK:And what about adult leaders? Who would you say in terms of teachers of the community who sort of inspired you in terms of the civil rights?

SW:Lyman T. Johnson.

TK:How did you get to know him?

SW:His daughter and I were very close. We shared lockers together. Yvonne Johnson. She's passed away now. But Yvonne was part of that. I'm trying to think of my classmates names. Because ( ) there was 101, 111 and 112. We all kind of stayed together. 9307 at Madison Junior High School, our class, we were the 60:00children that were classified as college bound. I don't think that's the term that they used. But we all knew we were going to go to college. I just can't remember their names anymore. Mary Francis Perry. . . let me see. . . oh gracious. There wasn't that many down in my neighborhood. At that time we were living on Dumesnil. Ruthie's friends, Shirley and all of them, Jackie. But my friends

TK:How many years younger than you is Ruth?

SW:Ruthie was born in '44. So she's about seven or six years younger than I am.

TK:She must have been a young teenager when she did the sitins.

SW:Yeah, she was young.

TK:So, did she get arrested?

SW:She was arrested but they didn't keep her young.

TK:That's right, when your mother called.

SW:But they stayed up there. It was like eight hours. It was late at night time.

TK:How did you feel about your little sister

END OF SIDE B, END OF TAPE I

START OF TAPE II

TK:How did your sister get involved in that kind of thing?

SW:I really wanted her to be a part of it because if she didn't then everything that we had worked for might be lost. And so we needed to keep on going to make sure that the right things would be done. You see, I'm at the University of Louisville. Now catch this. We might have been at the Cardinal Inn. When I was 62:00in music school, Francis and the other girl, I can't think of her name but I might later on, would go there. See, we had to go there are music courses at Garden Court and then we had to come on campus and do English and all of that.

TK:The main campus?

SW:The main campus downtown. So we would go over to the Cardinal Inn or whatever it was called and eat. I would get me a bowl of chili and a hamburger almost everyday. It wouldn't cost but thirty cents. Plus the pop. And one day I went in and I said 'I want the usual. My hamburger and cheese.' Because everybody kind of knew you, you know. And this lady put it in a bag. And I said 'oh no, I'm 63:00going to eat it here.' She said 'oh no you're not.' And Francis I see her face just as clear as day and the other girl who was white.

TK:Francis and the other girl were white?

SW:They were white. And they had already gotten there and had paid for it. And she said, 'no, we don't serve you anymore.'

TK:They changed their policy.

SW:They changed their policy. I could not believe it. Then those two girls said 'if Sandra can't eat here we won't either.' But they did not ask for their money back. We left there, and I remember crying. I said, 'I thought this was over.' Not on campus. It might not have been a campus store but they were serving campus kids. I don't want to say the wrong I don't want to say Cardinal Inn if 64:00it wasn't Cardinal Inn.

TK:I've heard other people use that name, though.

SW:But I think that might have been what it was called. And that kind of thing is the thing that bothers you the most. Now at that time remember no, you wouldn't remember because you're not as old as I am but Big Boy, they have a drive in. One day we were coming back from school in Francis' car and they stopped by Big Boy. Right off of Eastern Parkway. I don't know what it is, 6th or 7th Street or whatever. And the lady came. They called in the order. But they didn't know I was in the car. So they weren't supposed to service. Because they only put our food in the bag. We could order it but we couldn't eat. So when 65:00they brought it out they realized I was in the back. And Francis I almost recalled her name was in the front. And the girl didn't know what to do. And she took everything back. She said 'I have to ask the manager.' And they wanted to they ended up giving me my food without wrapping it up. But that was the first time Francis had ever been I believe that happened before the incident at Cardinal Inn. She said, 'that's not right, is it?' I said, 'no, it's not right, it's not really right.' But you just kind of learned. You knew what you could do 66:00and you knew what you couldn't do. You knew where to go and you know. You just lived on. But in the back of my mind I said maybe the marches that we have done, the marches that they're still doing and the way that we are progressing, things are going to change.

TK:After the demonstrations that Ruth was involved with, when they had the ordinances and stuff, how much did things change? I mean, when you went to a restaurant or you went somewhere? Did people's behavior actually change?

SW:Sometimes. It depends on who the person was. If they had negative feelings about you they still tended to put you next to last. You could stand there and be standing and they would just keep on waiting on everybody. I guess they kept 67:00thinking if I keep on picking on everybody else then she'll just leave. And then other times I don't think I really wanted to eat at Walgreen's. Not for real. It's no big deal. It's not all that good. That egg salad sandwich, I don't think I wanted to anyway. I just said well, I'll just do what I have to in my small way and when I become a teacher I will make sure I treat all my children in a positive way. That was my philosophy all twentyeight years that I taught school.

TK:Brandeis?

SW:Oh, you don't want to oh girl.

TK:You changed schools.

SW:No, I didn't want to. But I left Brandeis to have Faith. One came, I was getting ready to come back and then Eric came.

TK:How many do you have?

SW:Three. So I had to stay home. But Faith was in the first grade and one was in kindergarten, I think that's what it was. And Mr. Conwell was principal at King's School. I was also working in the PGA, secretary of PGA when Faith was in kindergarten. So he asked me one day. He called me and said 'I need you.' I said, 'Roger, you know I have a little baby here.' He said 'put the baby in a private school.' Because we had ABC private school right up the corner here and 69:00it didn't cost a whole lot of money. 'I need you. I want you to start Monday or Tuesday.' School had already started and I hadn't thought about it. Well, I told my husband. 'No, I do not want you working.' Ok, but something in the inside said you have to do this. I'm so glad I did because my husband got sick for three months and had to take off of school. But anyway, that's how I got to King's School. And I stayed there until 1975. Seems like I went there in '72 or something like that. It was a new situation for me. I never taught where classes were all open.

TK:That experimental stuff?

SW:Yes, ok. I forgot the man's name who did all that strange stuff. Whoa. But anyway I lost my train of thought.

TK:So you were there until 197

SW:1975. Then, that's when they decided they were going to do bussing. I thought well, I don't know. I hope they don't call me. But that morning we had a big faculty meeting and Mr. Conwell said I have your letters here. No, we had a faculty meeting and I was supposed to receive the letter because they were sending letters. I told the babysitter who was watching Faith, Warren and Eric, I said 'don't open it but accept it and I'll call you.' And the letter came, 71:00lunchtime came and I called home and said 'is my letter there?' And my babysitter was an adult and she said yes. I said open it please. Even though I'm just a block away from home, just around the corner. She opened up and said 'you have been assigned to Great House Elementary School.'

TK:Where is that?

SW:Thank you, that's exactly what I said. I said 'where is that?' Way out in St. Matthews. I looked at it and some teachers and I started crying. I went back in 72:00there and several teachers had called home and found out what they had. And they transferred almost everybody out of King School.

TK:Where was King School?

SW:Right around the corner. Vermont and Southwestern Parkway. And I went home and I told Warren I don't even know where this school is. I don't want to leave. I mean, I was screwed up. I did not like my husband took me. And I looked at that big old school and I said I don't even like that school. I don't want to go. I do not want to go. But something on the inside said yes you do. You have to go. So I remember going. And many a morning when they were saying I pledge 73:00allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all I wouldn't say those words. I'd look out there. Because see, at that time, at Great House, you would look out your window. The flag was out there and the whole class had to face the window so we could see the tall flag. It was different. I would say whatever I wanted to in my heart. I did. It took a long time until some little boy went up to me and said 'you look like my momma's maid.' And I said, 'let me tell you son, I might look like your momma's maid but 74:00I'm your teacher. You give me the respect and I'll give you the respect. But don't you forget who I am.' I never had trouble out of that little fella anymore. You look like my maid!

TK:This was a little boy, too.

SW:Yes! He was in the fourth grade.

TK:Were any black students bussed over to that school?

SW:Great House? No, no. Because at that time Warren and Faith had to go to Audubon. I had to put them on the bus. And the next year I said hardship. I'm 75:00teaching at a school and my children are going to another school. I want my children to go with me. I can drive them to school. They finally granted it to me. That's how I got my children back to Great House. And then Great House used to be called Great House ( ) because we needed a bigger place. But I had a very difficult time the first year of bussing. I was not used to driving that far by myself. I mean, thirteen, fifteen miles is a long way to go. A couple of times I got lost because I didn't really know, we didn't have expressways. I just had a hard time. I had one white teacher who befriended me, Ms. Andriskol. Wonderful lady. We still talk. We go out to have fish at someplace because we both like 76:00fish. I've been to her home and we've visited each other's church and things like that. I was cordial but I just had a hard time.

TK:I've heard a lot about the antibussing movement and stuff. Do you have any memories of that specifically?

SW:I really thought, and I think we're going to look down fifty years from now and say I can't believe they had children riding for an hour, and hour and a half, to go to a school when they had schools in their neighborhood. See, what I liked about King School my kid acted up, I would say 'hey, sit there. We're going to walk home together today.' You can't do that with bussing. You see your 77:00parents maybe on conference day or you get on the telephone and call. But you might not meet that parent until sometimes you never meet them. I had problems with us moving out of the community. See, I could walk into a store and see some kid doing something wrong and I'd say 'hey, you know better than that. You better put that back there.' Just like that. Go into Winn Dixie and see somebody doing something wrong. And you weren't a threat. You better not tell somebody's child that nowadays. They might even take a gun out and shoot you before you know it. You can't say anything to anybody. But when you lived in the 78:00neighborhood, they all knew they knew Mr. Wainwright was a teacher. They also knew he was a coach. And they also knew that Mrs. Wainwright was a teacher. And when you go in the community knew you. Because you were the one that was teaching their children. Now, I can see why we would have to go and probably do what we had to do. Because I remember Salsbury and the old books. And Brandeis.

TK:And that was years after

SW:Oh yes! I said, yeah we need it. But no, I don't want to leave my neighborhood. And when I got to my class there would be only two or three black children and all these other white children. And sometimes I didn't know whether 79:00they were treating my children Faith, Warren and Eric you see, one teacher told my daughter, she was in the sixth grade, that she would never be able to pass social studies. I want to see that teacher now and say 'guess what, my daughter was a high school teacher of social studies and history. But you know what, she's a councilor now.'

TK:At a local school?

SW:She's now teaching in Ohio. She married a minister and they moved to Xenia, Ohio. So she's the councilor at Werner Junior High School there. But that lady 80:00sat there and told me that Faith would never be able to accomplish anything because she didn't know how to (interruption) You don't do things like that to children. Do unkind things. But I don't know just. . .what else.

TK:Well, I had wanted to talk about bussing. You talked about that. If you could just back up a little. The other sort of major event in Louisville in terms of civil rights stuff was the open housing demonstrations. And I'm wondering if you 81:00were involved in those or not or if you just have any memories of the time?

SW:Ok, open housing. My husband and I got married and we lived at 2522 W. Walnut Street. That's above a lady's house who owned it and was a beautician. She had Sarah Thomas Beauty School or something. She died and we got a notice from her family that they wanted us to move. I said all right. I was talking to my sisterinlaw and she said 'girl, there's a house right down the corner. It's up for rent.' I said 'oh great!' I was pregnant with Eric, I guess I was. And so we moved on down there. Then Christmas week I had a big family gathering at home 82:00and I heard all this banging on the door of this house that we moved in for a couple of years.

TK:This house that we're in right now?

SW:No, no, no. 42 ( ) way. And I go to the door and find out and they're knocking, hollering something out there. And I go out there and they say 'house up for auction.' I do get weepyeyed sometime. I said, 'Warren, Warren come here.' And I said 'who are you?' And the man said 'I'm from the city government or something.' And we went over there, and Warren looked and he said 'house is up for auction on such and such date.' Like thirty days from then. I said, oh my God. We were renting. Warren looked at me and he said, 'dumpling, the next house 83:00we get nobody will put us out.' Because they had put us out on 2522, they cut our heat off. Wouldn't turn it on until 10:00 in the morning. It was cold. I was pregnant. You don't do that. So I started looking. We tried to find houses in the east end, my husband and I. I wish I could remember that lady's name. A very nice lady, if I can kind of remember. But she took us to some places that I thought I don't feel comfortable. And then the one house that we really liked, when we went into the backyard, all of these white people in the neighborhood 84:00were standing out there looking at us. And I really liked it. But it was in the east end. And she was saying, 'now you're going to have to pay for your garbage pickup. And you need to belong to the neighborhood whatever. But you like the house? I have no problem with you. I think you'll get along fine with all these people.' And I'm looking around at all these people looking at me. So we came home and Warren said 'I like that house but uh uh. Not that one.' So we had to tell her. She was trying to get two teachers involved. I mean, I was home at the 85:00time because I had my little children. But I was still a teacher. She was trying to get good black people to go out in the east end. I knew exactly what she was trying to do. And he said 'dumpling, I don't feel good about that house. I don't want it.' So we just had to tell her. So when we told her that she said 'I don't think I can help you anymore.' And she didn't. So then I started just going from house to house to house. I came to this house but they led us through the basement. I thought uh uh, I know they don't expect me to live in this. Because I had seen so many I didn't picture the basement was nice because there was a family who lived there. A sister or something. But they brought me up here. Man! 86:00Floors, walls, big, nice room on the back, bedroom there. Three bedroom home. I liked the place. But they said we didn't make enough money. We'd never get this house. I said 'no, no, no, I'm a teacher.' 'But you're not teaching now.' So I kept on looking. But in the back of my mind, 4246. We saw 205 and I liked that one. But it didn't have as much yard space and the driveway was going up and then around. You had to go in through the back or something. And we were almost ready to sign for that and was talking to the Rialto and Warren said, 'but you know sir, this is not the house that I want.' And he said 'well what house is 87:00it?' And he said '4246.' He said 'let me look into it. Let me see. Why did they not want to sell it to you?' He said 'because we didn't have enough collateral and we could only afford a ten thousand dollar home.' The man called me back the next day and set let's go look at the house one more and make sure this is what you want. Well, I started dreaming about this house. I said, 'oh Lord, I just know you're going to make a way. Please let us have this house.' And sure enough he said we could get it. I had to go to the mortgage people but I went to another set. I said 'I am a teacher. I will be teaching. I play the piano. I 88:00play the organ. I can teach. I can do anything so we can get this house. I will.' And that mortgage company said 'we're going to give it to you.' Didn't have a whole lot of money saved up. But we had enough and I cashed in almost every bond that we had. I said Lord, please don't let us get sick. We can do it. And we got this house only because the Harris people over there no kin to me but they're over on Market Street. And he was the one who was going to carry us through ( ) But my husband, he was really the first one to say something about 89:0042. I said yeah that's the house but the lady said we couldn't get it. Then we come to find out later on that they didn't want to sell us this house because we were black. We were the first on the block. And it took a little while. On this side was a preacher. He came over one day and he said 'don't you think you better cut your grass.' And I thought my husband was going to kill him. You know, it was just two days. Man, wait a minute now. Don't start that stuff. Not yet. Warren said 'I'm fixing to go out there ' At that time everybody was doing that black symbol, you know, hand up in the air and all that kind of stuff. Putting X's and all that kind of. I said 'you're not going to do that. Don't you dare do it.' He said his wife didn't feel comfortable living next to colored 90:00people. They were gone in three months. They left. He came over to have, he said 'I want to talk to you all.' And sitting not at this table because I had a wooden table at that time and he said 'I just want to let you know we're moving. My wife wants to get a smaller place.' We said 'we wish you all the best.' We were eating egg nog ice cream so it had to be wintertime because that's the only time you get egg nog ice cream. He said 'what kind of ice cream is that?' We said 'oh, this is egg nog ice cream. You like it?' 'Yes.' 'You think your wife would?' 'Oh no, I don't think so.'

TK:Did you have any other negative reaction to it?

SW:No, because the neighbors across the street have always been nice. They look 91:00out for me. They would look and see if my house was still anybody trying to break in. The mailman that was before the ( ) moves in. What's that lady's name across the it begins with a P? Ms. Pelban. I said 'did you see a package?' Because I like to do mail order stuff.

TK:How long before the neighborhood became mostly black?

SW:We're still half.

TK:Northwestern Parkway is pretty mixed.

SW:We're about half. Because at the end down there, there are still three or 92:00four houses that are still white. There are two, three houses down at the end. So there are two there. And across the street, one, two

END OF SIDE A

START OF SIDE B

SW:He's going to Bellarmine College. So sometimes I do the heart drive, the cancer drive. I go door to door. It's still half. We still haven't gotten totally all black yet. The next block over, where the Owens live, that white 93:00family lives next to him and left. And so there's a black family there. But there's a few people. Now, he and I go to the same church.

TK:You mentioned that a couple of times. Which church?

SW:I'm a minister of music at Mt. Lebanon Baptist Church.

TK:You said that the other day on the phone but. . .

SW:But I belong to Green Street Baptist Church.

TK:I've heard about Green Street a lot.

SW:Yeah, now that's where the Owens the Green Street had a lot to do with it do.

TK:And Raoul Cunningham.

SW:Right.

TK:He actually gave me most he gave me about twenty names. I started with those and then kind of built up. I can't really think of any other questions. Is there anything else that you think we haven't talked about that. . .

SW:No, it's just a strange world we live in. When we have to look at the color skin to decide what we like. I used to tell my children all the time 'if we take all of our skins off and just let underneath be, we'd all be the same underneath. It's just a difference of color so don't let that bother you.'

TK:When did you stop teaching?

SW:I retired in 1996. Wasn't it?

Eric or Warren:I got back from the army in '95. . .

SW:About 92.

TK:Ok, what I usually ask off the tape is

END OF TAPE II

END OF INTERVIEW