Interview with Art Walters, November 17, 1999

START OF SIDE A, TAPE 1

Tracy K'Meyer:Just to get people started I usually like to start with when and where you were born?

Art Walters:I was born in Magnolia, Kentucky which is the great metropolis of LaRue, Kentucky, the Commonwealth of Kentucky. Population 250 people. In fact, there was a post office where the mail came out on the rural ride. I grew up on a farm 120 acres. My father was the only black that owned property in LaRue, Kentucky and the rest were tenant farmers. I was born the 6th of November, 1918. I had my eighty first birthday --

TK:Just last week.

AW:Yeah.

TK:About ten days ago. Happy birthday.

AW:Thank you very much.

TK:What were your parents' names?

AW:Thomas Walters was my father, Mable Walters my mother. Both are deceased.

TK:And you said that your father was a farmer?

AW:He was.

TK:One question I like to ask everyone, again this is sort of a warm up question, is how did you first become aware of racial prejudice?

AW:Right from the first day I walked out my door. In LaRue County, a very rural setting at that time -- the individuals were good neighbors but there was always your place and my place. For example, my brother, sister and I walked four miles to elementary school in Buffalo, Kentucky. We passed ten minutes after I left my house an elementary school that was for white only. Had busses passing us with children riding busses with the windows rolled down and calling us names and this type. So I have been aware of racial prejudice from the get go.

TK:Since you were a child. What did your parents teach you about how to respond to racial prejudice?

AW:Basically my parent's message and I look back on it repeatedly -- you're not better than any one else but no one is better than you are. That was basically -- treat others as you want to be treated and you'll come out all right.

TK:How far did you go in school? You went to elementary school there. Did you come to school here?

AW:I finished elementary school in Buffalo, Kentucky. I went to high school in Elizabethtown. We called it E-town. We were offered to be bussed across county lines to maintain separate but equal in the Commonwealth of Kentucky. I had relatives in Elizabethtown so I moved there in 1939 --'35, and graduated from 3:00Washington High School. I was valedictorian of the class in 1939. All black school. White school had the gym and we went over and used it whenever they weren't scheduled to use it themselves.

TK:What did you want to do when you got out of high school?

AW:To make a difference.

TK:And how did you plan to do that?

AW:I went to Kentucky State College at that time. All black school. Finished three and half years of work in three and the Army said I want you and drafted me out of my junior year, the end of my junior year.

TK:I was wondering if you were drafted.

AW:I was drafted.

TK:So you were. I'll cross that off. Where did you go in the military? Which branch?

AW:I was drafted into the Army Corp of Engineers and my first station was 4:00processing at that place over in Indiana. I don't remember. Anyway, we just went there and took some memorization and all but my first station was Fort Bellview, Virginia since that's the engineer school of the Army. I finished most of my basic training and was pulled out to teach individuals that were basically illiterate. I would interpret their payroll, their paychecks and how the deductions were arrived at and how much they could expect from the gross when it got down to taking their laundry fees out, like that. I was selected but did not apply. I was selected to be interviewed for officer candidate training school at the end of my noncommissioned officer status. And that was a corporal at that 5:00time, second in command of a platoon which consists of about thirty five people. I was selected to attend OCSO in June and then in February the fourteenth I was commissioned to Second Lieutenant. I served the rest of twenty years as a commissioned officer.

TK:Did you go into combat in either the Pacific or the --

AW:We stayed in England preparing the launching areas for the invasion of France. Normandy. And our unit went in sixteen days after D-Day on the beaches at Normandy. Went all the way through France, Saint Lo, Sigfried Line and ended up part of the occupation forces for about six months after the war was over.

TK:Had you been studying engineering in school?

AW:Not engineering. I had a good background in math and that's kind of how they were selecting individuals at that time.

TK:So you weren't already an engineer before you went into the occupation forces?

AW:No.

TK:I read a newspaper article that said you were in the Army Corp of Engineers for twenty years. Where were you during that time?

AW:Europe first. We trained in Camp Massie, Texas for the oversees. England, stayed through England. Nine months in England in preparation of the launching areas and the marshaling gears and the holding gears for tanks and trucks and all. And then I said that ( ) after two days. We served food during the war. We were shipped back to the States as a unit after the VE day and were being 7:00re-outfitted for the specific conquest of Japan, when the bombs were dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima. I did get to go to the Far East but in peace time. My wife and I, without any children, were stationed in Manila for better than two years. Then I was back in the Far East during the Korean War. And there's a little story behind that I'm rather proud of. When I went into the Army it was a totally segregated Army. And the typical configuration would be all of the top officers commissioned were Caucasian. Second Lieutenants, maybe one or two First 8:00Lieutenants who had to stay in there for eons were black. The NCO's of the outfit were black and all the enlisted men were black. In the twenty years that I was in the Army there were a group of officers selected to demonstrate their ability, no regulation, but to demonstrate their ability to command integrated commands. Caucasian and blacks together. This was before the executive order by Harry Truman. That was being done in Europe and I demonstrated mine in what they call a ( ) Command which include the Philippine Islands. And essentially one would come if they were non-black to the battalion and the personnel officer would ask "do you have any objection to serving under a black officer?" If they 9:00said yes then they weren't assigned to C Company of the ( ) regiment which was my outfit. After they said, no I have none, then they were assigned to my company. A series of those demonstrations of the ability of black officers together with visits from various locations, and in Louisville it was Frank Stanley Sr., the former head of the Defender, made trips to oversees command. And his was Europe. His report is in the library of the University of Louisville. Those two things -- demonstration abilities and investigation of the nonsense of running two parallel armies, one black and one white, provided the basis for Harry Truman in 1948 to issue and Executive Order that integrated the 10:00Army. In 1950, I was one of many black officers in Korea doing combat. I was still an engineer who was commanding integrated troops and mine was three way integrated. I had Korean soldiers, Caucasian soldiers and black soldiers. Then the end of the story is when I retired at Fort Lenwood, Missouri in 1962, my entire staff -- when I was the Executive Officer of an engineer brigade -- my entire staff was Caucasian from Second Lieutenant to Major.

TK:So you really saw that change firsthand.

AW:I saw it and I made a little contribution to the transition. That's my pride point. I went in as a recruit and retired as a Lieutenant Colonel. I served the 11:00last two years as a Lieutenant Colonel.

TK:Do you retain that title after you retire, Lieutenant Colonel?

AW:It's Lieutenant Colonel, Retired. I carry two titles, Lieutenant Colonel, Retired and President of the Louisville Urban League, Retired.

TK:Which is what I've seen. Were you stationed abroad the whole time that you were in the Army?

AW:No, 50% of twenty years was spent oversees. Two doing what we call theater of Operation Combat. Europe and Korea. And two during peace time. I served my last tour oversees with my family three and half years and lived in Nuremberg, Germany and toured all of free Europe at the time. We traveled a lot. And the other non-combat role, I spent the better of two years in the Philippine 12:00Islands. Most of it in Manila but we did finally move near Clarksville Airforce Base to Angelese, Pompanga. And our role there was to prepare the bunkers for the plants that were kept in Clarksville. Been closed now, the place where we lived was inundated by a volcano that erupted. My wife used to sit and say "that's a volcano." I said "well, it is but it hasn't" --

TK:Don't worry about it!

AW:We were gone but it did erupt.

TK:What kind of effect do you think being in the Army all those years had on you?

AW:It taught me a lot. One of the lessons -- well, I believed it all along but it kind of went back to what my father and mother told me -- you're not better than anybody, no one's better than you. I'll just preface a comment about this: all of us people go around with a veneer around us, a shell that prevents you 13:00from knowing really who Art Walters is. Except in circumstances of stress and human need and that happens without fail in a theater of operations during the war. So I saw both in Europe and Korea people as they really are without the veneer. And what my conclusion was if we can just maintain this without the circumstances we would have the basis for great elimination of armies because people are more alike than they are different. And that's a basis for some bridge building across racial, ethnic, age, whatever line. If you just remove 14:00the make-believe around ourselves. The other thing -- I got an opportunity to do what I wouldn't have in the forties and fifties and sixties in civilian life, and that is to associate and lead individuals across these barriers. I'm talking about gender and racial lines and ethnic layers. And I learned from that how to relate to people in a constructive way. I know how to disagree without being disagreeable. I know how to organize, deputize and supervise. Those types of things. But the other thing was it was really in a foundation for my becoming interested in the Urban League. I was not looking for a job. I was working on my master's out at UofL. Never quite finished it but I was called by the Urban 15:00League and really I liked that. The Urban League sought me out through a friend of my wife's. I retired in '62. And wanted me to be a staff member under a Charles Steele. I said "I'm working on my master's on my GI Bill. I won't be available to at least June." At that time I thought I had just blown it because there was four other individuals interviewed by the same personnel committee. Two days later the executive director who was Charles Steele, my predecessor called me and said "we want to offer you a job at the Urban League as the Industrial Relations Secretary." Now that was a job to open some doors and to put some people, African-American, black, into nontraditional jobs. That appealed to me as a part of the effort to make a difference. What I found very 16:00shortly after that I had two titles. One was what I just said, Industrial Relations Secretary, which was later changed to a more descriptive term -- Director of Economic Development and Employment. But my second title was Director -- and listen to all these directors, I had no staff -- but Director of Education and Youth Incentive. This was designed to keep particularly disadvantaged children, African American children and others, in school, and to provide some resources that would facilitate that end. Now, I soon learned that the individuals that came to me at the Urban League wanting me to open some 17:00doors, they were not ready to walk through the doors that I opened.

TK:They being?

AW:The clients that came to the Urban League to be served by the Urban League and placed in a job. 34% of them -- and I kept a record -- were not qualified for the jobs that I wanted to place them in.

TK:Not trained properly or something like that?

AW:Well, you know when you look at the ladder at that time you think of it in seven rungs. The two bottom rungs which is unskilled and laborer level. That's where most of the African-Americans were in Louisville.

TK:And you were trying to get people higher up.

AW:So the first thing I did under that title in 1963, I was hired in June of 14th of 1963 at the Urban League.

TK:Two days before I was born.

AW:Is that right? And by the Fall of that year I had secured through the 18:00Department of Labor directly, International Department of Labor, a grant that commenced a program called On The Job Training that was renewable on a yearly basis and it was going on twenty four years later when I retired from the Urban League. I take some pride in that. That's based on performance. I didn't do it myself. I screened and chose people that could do the job and I supervised them. So most of the individuals thinking about Civil Rights from the Urban League standpoint was "where did you march? And how many times did you get arrested?" Well, we didn't march. I wasn't really at the head of it at that time. The Urban League was part of a coalition for open housing and public accommodations. I 19:00recall early in '63, really before I really learned all the details about the Urban League, my boss, Charles Steele and the son of Frank Stanley Sr., which was Frank Stanley, Jr., with a coalition of hundreds of people on Frankfort in demonstration.

TK:The march on Frankfort?

AW:On Frankfort, yeah. I was more in the role of the staff person until 1971, when my predecessor passed and then I became the Executive Director after a national search which was required by the National Urban League. The local Urban League can select whomever but once they're selected they must be certified by the National Urban League with certain credentials and stuff like that. So 20:00between the time of my joining Urban League of Director of Education and Youth Incentive, these are some of the things -- and Director of Employment, the one I just mentioned, in my way was one way of contributing to this goal of equality of opportunity. It's one thing to have it in the law but if you don't have people qualified to take advantage of the law. So I concentrated in that area. And I just described one of the things I did. We also did an initially a Louisville plan. It was designed to integrate the building and construction trades of organized labor. It was supported by a group called the Committee of United Blacks. They were ministers and heads of community based organizations 21:00and all. But I was primarily the convenor and facilitator of moving that. Our first project was to get commitment from companies that were using organized labor and from organized labor itself. The fact that they would utilized the candidates that we selected and referred in an apprenticeship program as they needed them. No goals, no objectives, no numbers, just when the opportunity was there. That worked well in terms of the scope of it but it was a very small number of individuals. We went to the National Urban League and I was still the Director of Economic and Employment, to ask that they participate with us in a 22:00labor educational advancement program. That was a program that already had its genesis at the National Urban League. What the local Urban League did, they proposed in a format described by the National Urban League what the needs were and how this proposal you're writing would address those needs. And at that time we were having a lot of construction going on and I'll move quickly to what the outcome of this was. When we got -- well, we did get approved -- and that continued from the year, I can't remember the year, but it was after on-the-job training. So we had two initiatives going to equip people. One, exclusively in the building construction trade and the other in all other jobs.

TK:But it was still before 1970, though. Right?

AW:Oh yes.

TK:So I know the general time period you're talking about.

AW:The outcome of that was really demonstrated when the Galleria was constructed. The big shopping mall. What I'm really trying to say that is you have to prepare for tomorrow and we're back here. I think some kudos belong to the Urban League for having the foresight to see the need up front and to do some things with the kids. The labor union was fined $300.00 for articles carried in the Louisville Defender for conduct not in the best interest of organized labor. And that was the home town plan -- that the representatives of ( ) had agreed to work with us. Three nights a week I was conducting mentoring 24:00programs for disadvantaged children using retired teachers, teachers from Central High School and the Urban League Guild which was a group of volunteers.

TK:They were women, right?

AW:Yeah, they were mostly at that time. Later when I became executive we ( ) gender integrated and ( ) when we began, I think.

TK:I've heard about the founding of the Urban League Guild. Some people that were involved in that I talked to.

AW:In fact the founder of it just died just two months ago.

TK:Who was that?

AW:The state representative of Mae Street Kidd in 1948. But we got a nation wide award. There were five awards given by the Department of Housing and Urban Development for the Galleria being a model program in terms of integration, utilization of minorities both as workers -- because we had integrated unions and there wasn't any fights about we need union members. We had black union 25:00members in every trade that we used on the Galleria. We had subcontracts as goals. And I was the Executive Director by this time. But this Civil Rights effort back here paid off.

TK:So the on-the-job training and the labor thing. Was it going on at the same time?

AW:Yeah. On-the-job training first. But the Labor and Education Advancement -- after we saw the need for integrating the union that was doing all the expansion of Louisville.

TK:So those two programs were sort of going on at the same time.

AW:They were simultaneous.

TK:How would you recruit people to place them?

AW: A lot of ways. I had access to the Defender and the specific part in the 26:00paper for skills bank opportunities. And one of the things I created while I was Economic Development Employment Director was skills bank with the help of the National Urban League. We logged and classified individuals by various occupational skills. So when an employer had a need -- I helped write the justification for a program called Jobs Now.

TK:I've heard of this one.

AW:Jobs Now. George Underhill was the director of it. Now, Jobs Now was a program that was designed to take the disadvantaged and to eliminate the written test and to make the test for performance of whatever job they were being considered for, for a month. If they were satisfaction on that then they became permanent employees of the company. We started out with three companies and we 27:00ended up with forty two companies that participated in that. The Jobs Now was an effort to get another level -- see, we got on-job training, we got Labor Education Advancement. But we still got individuals falling through the cracks in terms of we don't have enough slots for on-the-job training. And by the way, the on-the-job training, the company was subsidized during the time the individual was training on the job.

TK:Through a federal grant?

AW:Through a federal grant, yes. The federal grant paid for the staff that worked for me and paid for the remuneration and it was a lined item -- the remuneration of the company until the probation period was over. And if they performed well they were hired.

TK:Did you say it was a Department of Labor grant?

AW:Department of Labor grant, right. Both of those -- on-the-job training and Labor Education Advancement.

TK:Were both affirmative labor. Ok. What relationship did the Urban League have to the War on Poverty?

AW:We were considered at one time to be old-fashioned because we organized and supported neighborhood clubs in every neighborhood. Those clubs became, with our blessing, the agencies that became in Louisville the -- I keep calling it --

TK:Contract agencies?

AW:Yeah. They were the inner councils of the ( ). Also Portland, Duvalle, all of that came from the Urban League Neighborhood Club. Everybody that looked at that 29:00program on a local level said that Louisville was far ahead of the others and the reason was that we had already been doing it, we didn't have any money, but they were doing what those inner councils begin to do with money because Community Action Commission on that time -- it finally became Community Action Agency -- but the Community Action Commission was the funnel through which the War on Poverty funneled money into the metropolitan area of Louisville.

TK:What were the neighborhood clubs supposed to do?

AW:They were to -- first, the Urban League started out by what we call empowering ourselves. To have a voice in what went on in the neighborhood, to lobby with us -- not lobby but prevail upon the resources that had answers to their needs. Like lights and gullies and. . . And we had a neighborhood council 30:00that was the cheer of all the neighborhoods. Served on the council and that individual was always with the Urban League when we went to officials about issues of our neighborhood. I can talk about it because I am the president of ten neighborhood councils.

TK:When were the neighborhood clubs started?

AW:They were in existence when I joined the Urban League.

TK:That's what I thought. That they were like a link.

AW:The point was there had been no -- there had been a staff person that was hired about six months, I'm told, and it was Reverend Hodge's wife. W. J. Hodge's wife. 5th Street Baptist Church. Big Civil Rights and NAACP and that type of thing when I first joined. Was hired as the neighborhood community 31:00organizer, organizing the neighborhood and that was the beginning of it being staffed. Before, they just asked individuals to organize it but they didn't have any resources.

END OF SIDE A

START OF SIDE B

AW:-- was the needs like the big deal down in Parkland is for people to have an income. Fit right into Art Walter's Labor Education Advancement program, skills bank, and to the on-the-job training. The skills bank was for people already trained. They just needed somebody to open the door to utilize the training. So there were three initiatives. Now, is that enough on that? I'm trying to give you a broad brush but I'm going into too much deal in some of it. The 32:00initiatives that we took to test laws on public accommodations -- my wife and I as part of the Urban League, my wife as the Guild and me as a staff member, were part of multiple teams that tested public accommodations. From '63 when they came in and right on through. And we kept in going after I became the director. And what we would do, this was a program by the Louisville Jefferson County Human Relations Commission authorized by Mayor Cowger, who was a republican mayor at the time. And I jokingly say but it's true, that I took my wife out to dinner more because what I could do was get reimbursed. But we were armed with a card identifying that we were representing the Human Relations Commission of the City of Louisville. And we were instructed to go in, sit down in a restaurant, 33:00pick whatever one you wanted, and wait for a waiter or waitress and order. 60% of our efforts were refused and we really ( ) broadly. But 60% of the restaurants refused to serve us and this was in 1963. What we do, we'd ask for the manager, that was part of our instruction, "what is your policy concerning serving people of color?" And then try to remember that we had a form but were waiting till we got outside and filled the form out and turned it in. That was the basis, a whole bunch of individuals doing it, but that was the Urban League's, in that role, that convinced Mayor Cowger to support the leadership of 34:00Louise Reynolds, a black woman on the Board of Aldermen for public accommodations in the city of Louisville. Now, that's on the books now. It's an ordinance law. You still -- the word didn't get out or the people. . . So we organized test teams to see whether an individual was complying with the ordinance, the Urban League did. And essentially it's the same procedure, but it was the basis for reporting the establishment. The actual address, at a certain time refused to serve us on the basis of color. Now, we did the same thing in the area of housing. We would -- and this again was the Human Relations Commission -- I just went last year with a Jewish individual who headed the 35:00thing and then they had the associate director who was the wife of Dr. A.B. Harris. He lost her just about a year ago. But there we had a white couple with credentials on paper that was the same as a black couple with their credentials on paper. And what we would do is test the same site or the same landlord or the same apartment complex or something. It's amazing the difference you get -- "we are all filled up after this." Now come on. And we reported that in. So that was allowed to be the enforcement arm of our part. One of the basis for the cease and desist authorities that the Human Relations Commission has both at county level and at the state level.

TK:Did you do that as a representative of the Urban League or as a citizen?

AW:Yeah, yeah. No, it was Urban League.

TK:I was curious because you had said that in 1963 when you were doing the testing that it was 60% said no. Did it change over time?

AW:Oh, yeah. There was a coordinator and this individual, Clara Harris, was the coordinator of our assignment. It may have been just because she knew it so well that she gave us a difficult -- I said we could go to any restaurant within our assigned area. Maybe she gave us ( ) but I never compared our experience with the other teams and there were a lot of teams out there. TK:I've heard the thing about the housing testing. I think I talked to someone else who had participated in the housing themselves. Did the Urban League do anything specifically aimed at youth, like high school kids?

AW:Oh yeah.

TK:What kinds of programs did you . . .

AW:As I mentioned, I learned after I was accepted as Director of Economic and Development Employment, I was informed that I had an additional duty. It was Director of Education and Youth Incentives. That was our youth goal. I went to my boss, Charles Steele and got permission to raise the money to staff the first Education and Youth Incentive. They just had a program but there wasn't any staff. And here I am, new in one role and I've got an additional duty and I want the Director of Education and Youth Incentive, who turned out to be Jesse Carter, was the first individual. A native of Louisville. But our effort as I said earlier was to turn around the enormous amount of ( ) to drop out and that 38:00type of thing. A part of it we determined as we analyzed it was due to the fact that individuals were not very well prepared in the subjects math, English and reading comprehension. And that's the program that I started at Plymouth. I'm a member of Plymouth Congregational United Church of Christ. The center there is called, it used to be Plymouth Settlement House and it's now Plymouth Community Renewal Center. Right at 1630 West Chestnut is the church and I guess 1628 would be the center. We just got it renovated. $430,000 renovation.

TK:I had some specific questions here but did you have other stuff off your list?

AW:No, I'm just trying to get a little bit of a. . . well, we did some efforts with the police department. One of the efforts was we tried to increase the number of African-Americans on the police force. There was typical recruiting and getting individuals into skill bank referring. Helped some but Reverend Louis Coleman worked for me as the Director of Urban Affairs.

TK:When did he start working for you? Do you remember?

AW:Whenever I became the director of the Urban League.

TK:So in 1970?

AW:Yeah.

TK:Because I was trying to decide whether to interview him. I didn't know if he went back far enough but it sounds like he does.

AW:You ought to interview him.

TK:Because I know he does stuff now but I didn't know how far back he went but it sounds like if he went back to 1970 I do need to interview him.

AW:But I was -- three nights a week there were, as I said, Future Teachers of American, retired teachers and the Urban League Guild tutoring individuals in those subjects --

TK:At the center.

AW:The other two weeks, the other two days in the week, five nights in the basement of 5th Street Baptist Church working with at that time the volunteer beginning of what turned out to be Labor Education Advancement Program. I was working with a white asbestos and installation steward of organized labor and 41:00that's the one that was fined $300 for conduct not in the best interest of the union. That's because we were training blacks to be what he already was. You understand? We established at Charles Steele's death in 1970 a Charles Steele Scholarship Assistant. We tried to do it on an integrated basis. It's small but it's the thought behind it. There's a Caucasian from a disadvantaged background and an African-American from a disadvantaged background that is selected to receive equal assistant grant money. I don't know what it is now but it was very small when it started. But there were two rationales behind it, two reasons -- one was to honor my predecessor, and the other was to assist individuals in 42:00educational pursuits. I did a lot when I was Director of Education and Youth Incentive speaking with schools and what my primary theme was if there's a high correlation between your success and scholarship and the type of job that you will qualify for once you come out of school. I went to elementary and high school and did a lot of it. I finally had to say I can't do it. I wanted to get the director --

TK:When you got the other director to come. One thing I wondered because I asked how you recruited people. Another question might be how did you cooperate or work with other organizations in town? Did you work with. . .

AW:I tried to be a relation builder in terms of organization. Succeeded reasonably well. I would go to national conferences of the Urban League and execs from other cities that would say "how is it that you in the Urban League and the NAACP are getting along so smoothly in Louisville? We don't have that type of success." I just had one exception to that and I won't go into it. But during my total time with the Urban League, both as staff person and director of it, staff person for seven and a half years and director for seventeen years for a total of twenty four years in the Urban League. I worked with the NAACP, the National Alliance Against Political and Racial Oppression. Used to be another one, Southern Christian Leadership Conference had it one time --

TK:In Kentucky.

AW:Kentucky's finally died out. And we did that through joint meetings on issues. I would take the issue back to my board to get their blessing and was able then to speak to any joint meeting on whatever issues. Whether it was school integration, bussing. Well, there's an article somewhere in a book around here in which there was an article about Art Walters and bussing. We got ( ) telephonically about three times a week when my office was at 2nd and Market Street in the United Way building. And it was one of the motivations for moving the Urban League out because I thought it was unfair to the other agencies in 45:00there and United Way. So we moved to 3rd and Oak Street initially and then I proposed my board to form a committee and talk about options to ( ). They kept accusing me -- I can't say that. It was the idea that the Urban League had never had a home of its own. "Let's look at the merits between being a renter or tenant and owning our own building." At that time ( ) was developing the west area in terms of the place where the post office is there right across from ( ) Mall. We chose to be the anchor tenant in the ( ) Mall. We explored some other 46:00options and when Ben came on, my time for retirement came. I kept saying to my board "I've done what I can, I think I've made a difference, I'm ready to go out to pasture" and so I finally put it in writing. Ben, who was ( ) the 14th of next year. Since '53. But we were already in that building and they began to do the search process. And when Ben came in the board asked him about do we want to stay here or we don't because really, we were on the third floor and it really wasn't that convenient to walk to the elevator and steps. So we ended up where ( ) is now at 1535 W. Broadway. Beautiful building specifically designed for the Urban League. That was the one it was in because I had designed it but it wasn't -- but I did start to campaign. Wrote the campaign for the state of proposal. 47:00Ben changed some words when they came and got some anchor guests. David Jones.

TK:What year was that transition from you to him?

AW:Ben came on in '84.

TK:You had said, we raised the bussing issue so I did want to ask what role did the Urban League play in bussing?

AW:We first endorsed it as a way to -- one was to desegregate and make it legally unlawful to discriminate based on race. But getting the individuals away from the neighborhood setting and going to school required something other than that. It was a very controversial issue. So we took an official position. We were the only nonprofit 501 organization that took a position on bussing in 48:00favor of bussing. Now there were some Johnny-come-latelies that came on later. But we met with very hostile groups. I suspect some of those were the ones that were sitting in the ( ). But we had the courage of our conviction. I lost one board member as a result of it. Then we were later involved very much in the -- and I was the director then, I was the primary convenor of a coalition that consisted of a whole bunch of people. Parents and councils and chairs and. . . And the coalition was concerned about the student assignment plan which placed 49:00disproportionately the riding of busses for long distances and that type of thing on the black children. We had some minor ( ) but we never won that one.

TK:Was that the Black Parents Association?

AW:They were involved in it. Suzy Post and I don't remember whether Suzy Post ( ) I can't remember.

TK:I am supposed to talk to her eventually. Can you tell me about -- I mean I've heard a little bit about some of the anti-bussing demonstrations. Can you tell me a little bit about them?

AW:It was a very nasty thing. There was vandalism as a result of it. I recall we were having a meeting at the what was then the Brown Hotel but the total hotel 50:00was being used as the Jefferson County School District -- I mean headquarters. One time when it was operational and then it closed as a hotel. Jefferson County School System bought it or rented it or something. And we were on about the third floor and the anti-bussing demonstration came down Broadway right in front of our window. The hate and verbiage and signs were very disturbing. You could drive out south of Louisville and it just about ( ) with bottles and whatever if you didn't blow your horn of support of, they called it forced bussing.

TK:Did any of it ever effect you at home? Did you any phone calls or anything at home?

AW:Oh yeah, phone calls and letters and. . . And I got those as the director of Urban League. It went beyond bussing. ( ) time with the Urban League and the paper documented it if you talked to people. We had the courage of our conviction. We took positions. It was all supported by my board but when I spoke, I spoke with the authority of the policy body of my board. They didn't always ( ) it. I would take an issue in to them and hold forth strongly about why we are to support this position in this way and come out with their blessing. Go to a press conference and speak with authority.

TK:What was the make-up of the board?

AW:We have always been an integrated, the Urban League nationally and locally has always been an integrated organization. The founders, I don't know if you 52:00know them, but they were black men. I think it is something like 60/40.

TK:Black to white or white to black?

AW:Sometimes it's white, sometimes it's the other. I finally left the board having a majority black. But it represented poverty people, it represented affluent people, it represented spheres of influence of people, the shakers and movers. If the top people couldn't come I'd ask them to designate the person to serve on my board so that I had at least ( ) on the top. And I did have an ear and access to every major corporation in this community. I could pick up a phone and if they were in I would interrupt whatever was going on for them to speak to me or if they were not in I'd get a return call before the day's over.

TK:What was your relationship with city government like?

AW:City government contracted with the Urban League. This development ( ) funded a part of a program called Affirmative Action Monitoring. We were the official agency for the city to monitor the extent to which equal opportunity was being applied to the law in all of the Kentucky body. We had contact with the Department of Labor regionally in Atlanta. The first person they came to was the Urban League to get stuff, the low down on this company that I'm going to do an audit on. How many times they placed an order for African Americans, what's their record and the whole ball game. It was in that role where I had a full time staff funded by -- on Affirmative Action. It was a project proposal that we 54:00submitted and recurrently renewed. A director and two field representatives who actually made head counts on jobs and then we had access to the EEO monthly reports that was turned in. Made reports to the city. It was in that role that I was asked to be one of the players of organized labor, Oxford Property, the developer of the Galleria and the city. And to sit and negotiate what goals and objectives would be.

TK:In terms of numbers of people?

AW:That's right. And then to use the program that I just referred to oversight to see that those goals and objectives were being attempted in what was called good faith effort. Nobody was shouted down when they'd make them.

TK:How long did that role go on, that Affirmative Action Monitoring?

AW:It was still going on when I left the Urban League. It is not now going on. What they did was they gave us my staff to the city.

TK:So the city does it themselves technically now?

AW:Well, it's a fox guarding a hen house. No, I mean that.

TK:Because since I've been here, at least, it seems that Louis Coleman's group does sort of the watching of but it doesn't seem to be. . .

AW:The nature of that and I think Louis will tell you -- it's a part of what an Urban League ought to be doing. Not necessarily all of the gadflying, I call it, in terms of street corner marching and all. That gets attention. But there's a lot of work that has to be done before that and there's a lot of work that has 56:00to be done after that in order to achieve significant results.

TK:You mean like gathering information and that sort of thing?

AW:Well sure, gathering information. But get your facts straight to make sure first.

TK:It seems like one of the things that I'm interested in is how organizations kind of worked behind the scenes and worked in different ways. And it seems like the Urban League did a lot of that. I have some general questions about the Urban League. First, did you know anything about it before you started working for it?

AW:Not really. When they said Industrial Relations Secretary my first next words were what's that? What they told me about it was not really all there was to it. I thought there was a foundation already established because there was an Industrial Relations Secretary that I replaced that went with the Kroger Company national headquarters. But when I got in it wasn't very well organized.

TK:I think they've had an Industrial Relations Secretary for quite some time. I remember reading --

AW:Oh yeah. It was a standard job title of the Urban League according to the ( ) under the National Urban League.

TK:I had a few little questions here. Do you think the Urban League changed at all over time? Over the time that you were involved in it?AW:Change from the beginning? --

TK:From '63 to --

AW:Oh, you have to change if you're going to be effective. When I retired I said to my board "I desire to meet with you one time and the purpose is to make sure every board member, particularly the new ones, understand the requirement for the search process. You're at liberty to interview whomever but you must advertise nationally." You do that through the National Urban League. And they advertised through their regional offices to their local affiliates. You may chose whomever. And as I said a moment ago, whomever you chose has to be 58:00certified by the National Urban League if they're not already. But I said to the board "after that I do not desire to be involved in the search process. You are responsible for hiring whomever you feel meets the needs of this community. They will be reporting to you. They will abide organization policy through a principle advisor. So who am I to sit out here with no responsibility, accountability and be advising you?" And I spoke that with great conviction because I saw the opposite of that happening in a lot of urban leagues. The one in Detroit. Dr. Francis Carnegie was a beautiful man, a brilliant man, Ph.D., but he was reluctant, the board was reluctant to let him go. Ron Williams came 59:00in to replace him. Young man, also brilliant. He'd go into -- I'm saying this because he could talk to me about it -- to the board and make some advice on recommendations on and issue and ( ) say I don't know about Roy, Roy Williams. Oh I don't know about that Roy. We just talked to Francis and he thinks differently. The point I'm making is that here's an individual advising the board when they have hired an individual --

TK:To do his job.

AW:And it never allowed Roy to get a hold of the reigns. And right after three years he resigned and went with Chrysler Corporation. He's now one of the top officials with Chrysler. Black.

TK:It sounds like you had a fairly strong relationship between the local 60:00branches and the national organization.

AW:Yeah, we operate under guidelines that requires certain things. Like the search for a new director. And the National Urban League is the final authority on certifying them. And if they aren't certified they must go to a school for training for certification.

TK:Do your local programs have to be Oked?

AW:Now, there's two types of them. Most Urban Leagues designed programs to meet local needs based on their knowledge. There's no restrictions on that. But the national has certain programs and there's one right now on youth. I can't think of the acronym for it. But it's designed to get youths out of the streets and into books. And at my time it was the effort in this Education of Youth 61:00Incentive department to let the local Urban League design something that would fit -- to kind of print something, I forgot, on education. One of my last acts as the Director of the Urban League was to develop, and it was a national program, educational initiative. And what they called it locally was a partnership between the public school system and the Urban League. It was designed, from my standpoint, because I wrote it, to close the gap between the majority school population, Caucasian students and African American students in a whole bunch of critical areas. Results of ( ) result of suspensions, result of 62:00poor subjects. It now is not that. But that's what it was designed for and I contend --

END OF SIDE B, TAPE 1

START OF SIDE A, TAPE II

AW:-- who think about issues the same way.

TK:You can work together anyway?

AW:The Jefferson County school system, I think, was pleased to have the Urban League as a partner. And if you just stop there it sounds like we're getting in the same groove and we're thinking alike. The Urban League's position was that the Jefferson County school system is accountable to the community for educating all children. All children. And the only way you can have a measure on that, and we established a base year, and yearly there was to be a line graph report that 63:00showed whether we were going up -- that's good -- level, we better look at it again, and if we're dropping we better throw out and start over. And a whole bunch, and I've got it here but I can't remember all the years, I believe that that was a critical initiative in education on behalf of minority youth especially. There were incentives in it and there were guidelines for checks and balances in there, accountability on the part of the institution that we pay taxes to support for quality education for all of our children.

TK:You said it became a national program. Is it ongoing?

AW:Well it was a national program by title. I'm trying to respond kind of in a long way to the fact that our programs dictated by the National Urban League. . . some of them are and some are local. In this case we had great latitude in 64:00using the National Urban League's education initiative and design it locally to fit in the way I just said is the way we designed it here because I saw the need.

TK:But that doesn't mean that your program was used by somebody in another. . .like a model.

AW:No, it doesn't. No.

TK:That's interesting. But it does seems to be a lot of -- a good relationship with the national.

AW:The Louisville Urban League under my watch was one of the model urban leagues in terms of program innovation, results obtained and management. We had audits every year locally by the board selection, by the funding source which in some 65:00cases was city, county or state, by the regional office of the National Urban League and by federal auditors when we were getting money from the government. Not one time during seventeen years that I was Director of the Urban League was there an exception found in terms of money being misused or any threat of canceling the program for lack of performance. I'm very proud of that.

TK:Tight ship.

AW:Yeah.

TK:I'm going to ask some general type questions to help us start to wrap up. How would you summarize or describe the general philosophy of the Urban League? What 66:00was their general philosophy?

AW:All men are created equal and endowed with certain unalienable rights. No. The Urban League's motto is Equality of Opportunity. Now there was at one time an effort and I kindly endorsed -- equality of opportunity does not solve problems. That's why I took these other initiatives.

TK:So it's not enough in other words?

AW:No it isn't enough. Because if you say all this doors open for individuals with five years of experience as a supervisor in whatever and there's been no opportunity for the individual to get that supervision, where do they get it? Hence the on-the-job training program. So that equal opportunity involves in my 67:00definition and I think the Urban League's adopted it, but it was one time the Urban League had equal results as its goal. It's not to back equal opportunity now. But in other words, what's the outcome? What's the bottom line?

TK:Were you involved politically at all? Was the Urban League involved?

AW:The Urban League is a 501 organization so can not be part, no.

TK:Can't be involved politically.

AW:Nobody knew what party I was affiliated with until I retired.

TK:And that's because of being a nonprofit?

AW:That doesn't mean you can't advocate for causes but it has to be nonpartisan. It can't be I'm doing this because democrats say it or because republicans say it.

TK:This is sort of a similar general question. How would you characterize the Urban League's general approach to securing opportunity?

AW:Both in terms of education and I'm talking about educating the people of the resources of the need. Advocacy on a nonpartisan basis. And in programs that address those needs. So that my belief is that an agency that's doing the job that the Urban League is doing has to be able to analyze trends and issues, determine what resource is needed to address them and then have an on-trade of those resources. And then commit the agency to its role in the fulfillment of 69:00where we're trying to go.

TK:A step by step process.

AW:Yeah, step by stop process.

TK:What would you say are the overall strengths and weaknesses of the Urban League?

AW:Obviously its history of success. It's been around. We know where the meadows are and how to get around them without getting muddy. And if the issue was important enough we know how to get muddy in order to get results. The other is that I think the Urban League is staffed, nationally and locally, with some very competent people. Some very innovative people who have the knowledge of the community after a while in which they operate. And thence the rapport with the clientele we serve is absolutely essential. I can't sit behind a mahogany desk 70:00in my office and talk about what the community needs. I have to through the community contacts. The neighborhood clubs and councils and so on. They sat on my board and those that couldn't sit on my board sat on my advisory bodies. They have to be connected. Then you equip your board with people who have gone through training and orientation for the understanding of what the Urban League is about and how we get things done. We get things done through, as I said, doing our homework in terms of finding out what the issue is, how it impacts the clientele we're supposed to serve in order for the disadvantage to be able to build bridges for resources that can help us solve it and then commit the resources -- both Urban League staff and program funds to the role in that resolution. That's kind of what the Urban League does. We have the technical 71:00assistants without cost on the regional and national office. Any area that the Urban League operates in there are individuals that national that can help without any ( ) to the Urban League.

TK:How many people are on the board at every given time?

AW:Thirty six.

TK:I should have asked that before.

AW:It may have changed. That's what it was when I was there. I think it's still that. And in that, I told you about 40/60,I don't know, but it's well mixed. But the National Urban League at one of its conferences early before I became the Executive Director mandated that 25% of the board must at the initial formation to have individuals -- no, 15% of the board must be under twenty five years of 72:00age. The youth element. And that's one of the keys I think. The Urban League doesn't try to speak far. They try to speak with the people they serve. If they're doing it right. And there was a turning point. Up to that point we had not had youth on our board. We had youth advisors and stuff like that.

TK:Well I think what you said a couple times about there are people of different economic levels also is really interesting.

AW:That's important I think. Because the Urban League is about disadvantaged people. It started out with people who were moving to urban centers in search of the good life ill-prepared for the job that they were seeking. Didn't have quality housing to live in. Didn't have proper health care. Separate but equal 73:00agendas. For the Urban League was from the beginning about people who need some help. To help them not fall through the cracks.

TK:And it was founded in the 1920's?

AW:The local Urban League was founded in 1920. The National Urban League movement was formed in 1912.

TK:Oh, that early. Local 1920's.

AW:Local Urban League was in 1920.

TK:This is one little backup question. When you got out of the war why did you come to Louisville?

AW:Because I owned my own property while I was still in the Army, in town. 1837 W. Jefferson Street. Right across from what is now Joe's Palm Room. That's what 74:00I owned probably fourteen years. We had to have a place to put footlockers and junk that was picked up here and moved there and get out the other way. But as I said, I went to Kentucky State. I met my wife at Kentucky State. We celebrated our fifty fourth wedding anniversary the 6th of September.

TK:Congratulations. That's a long time.

AW:And I celebrated my four score and one year in age. Eighty one years old.

TK:Last week. About two weeks ago. One other question I had just for your --

AW:You don't have to rush through. You're a good interviewer.

TK:I'm just making sure because there were some questions along the way that I wanted to make sure to get back to. One of them is outside of your Urban League which was your main, which was your job, obviously, but were you involved in any other kinds of organizations or activities outside of the Urban League?

AW:Yes.

TK:What kinds?

AW:I was in the -- and I'm still in some of them -- the Louisville Labor Management Committee which works to ensure harmonious relations between organized labor and ( ). I wrote the first guidelines for what is now called, and it was put in place, the Lease Administrative Advisory Committee. I wrote that and I designed the evaluation process on an annual process. This was advisory to the mayor on how so that. . .

TK:When was that?

AW:Early in '70. We went to a training session in Baltimore, Maryland, just out 76:00of Baltimore for three days. And the concept that law enforcement and safety -- fire and police -- was joint responsibility between the policed and the policer. The community and the police. And in order to make sure that that was done well, there ought to be an involvement of the community in seeing how well the head of the police department is relating to the police.

TK:So you wrote that and you're on the management committee group.

AW:I integrated the downtown Rotary Club. First African American in it. Twenty five years. Paul Harris, who is an individual who contributes $1,000 to the foundation. I didn't but somebody did it --

TK:In your name?

AW:Yeah. I served on the Afro American Hypertension Task Force because of the 77:00large incidents and high incidents of minority ( ). I was a member of the California Federation Board.

TK:Is that the Neighborhood?

AW:Yes. On the board of Stop Dope Now which is one of the efforts early to deal with the emergence of drugs. I currently serve as advisor to 100 black men who has a program on youth. I'm a member, just rotated off as vice-chair of the Age and Resource Center. I serve as a member of the board still and the chair of the nominating committee. I served six years as a board of overseers at the 78:00University of Louisville. I'm now a member of the Deleward's Foundation. It recognizes its volunteers ever year and its done by Channel 32 and ( ). My role primarily is to help select the nominees. It was my first experience with it and I did start when the program was organized. I was one of the founding members of it. The twelve members came in, the nominees, and they were all Caucasian and I said this was not acceptable. Well why not? We went through a process. I said that process is step one and its important. But what they did was take all the board, they evaluated the persons and then the staff added up then divided by 79:00the number of evaluees and came out with a number. I said that's important for our benefit. But what else do I want? I want to see gender integration. I want to see racial integration. I want to see geographic spread and I want to see diversity in terms of the agencies that the volunteers are giving their services to. And now when I said it's my pride I'm not ( ) I don't have to attend any meetings. I still have to evaluate sometimes. I go in and the first thing I say is, now, we have a ( ) in others words step one and what we must do is make sure we're integrated gender wise or age wise, geographic wise. You can make a difference.

TK:That's quite a variety of things.

AW:I'm on so many -- I've served on about every board. I integrated the 80:00Louisville Labor Management Committee. It was all white when I joined. Well, that's enough. If you want a list of it I'll give you my ( ) and you can look through it. You didn't ( )

TK:Well, both.

AW:But I'm talking about so many people, you know, just talk about an agency in a Civil Right's role in terms of the marches and how many times you've been arrested and all that. That's just a small part of Civil Rights.

TK:That's what I think too. And that's why I wanted to make sure to talk to you and about the Urban League. Like I said, I can read about it because there are the papers. But you helped to put things in a bigger context.

AW:Have you seen the Urban League's Annual Reports that go back to say. . .

TK:In the National Archives in D.C. they have the papers up through and it cuts 81:00off at some year I guess because they have a twenty five limit. You cant' go more than, closer than twenty five years ago. So I've seen up to whatever that year is. But because I only have ten days I was focusing mostly on the forties and fifties at that time. So I haven't gotten up more recent --

AW:The reason I say that is because I instituted the Annual Reports of the Urban League. And the personnel policies and the whole ball game when I became Executive Director. I think they're pretty good. It's a good summary of how we innovatively designed programs to address Civil Rights.

TK:That's interesting. Because I do think that one of the things we need to understand there are a lot of different people working in a lot of different ways. That's one of the themes of my book, hopefully. I'm writing an article right now on, well I'm going to go ahead and stop this.

END OF SIDE A, TAPE II

END OF INTERVIEW