Interview with Tom Moffett

Amber Duke: Ok, this is Amber Duke. And I'm here with, interviewing Tom Moffett on February 21, 2011 at his home which is at 1552 South 34th Street

Tom Moffett: Yes

AD: In Louisville, Kentucky. Um, Tom thank you so much for agreeing to do this today. Um, can you say and spell your name?

TM: T-O-M M-O-F-F-E-T-T. Tom Moffett.

AD: Wonderful. Ok, so Tom we're just going to jump right in. Can you tell me when and where you were born?

TM: I was born in Pyongyang, Korea, which we called Pyong. And it was a long time ago 1924 and uh my folks were missionaries in North Korea at the time, and had been there for a long time. My father was 60 when I was born (laughs). So 1:00that's when and where I was born.

AD: Ok, well how did your family or how did you or your family end up here in Louisville? How did you get from Korea to Louisville?

TM: Well after spending 12 years in Korea then um, my father was passed retirement age, had not planned to come back to this country, but with health reasons and so forth he had to come back. So I joined him here [United States] with my mother when I was 12 in southern California. Went to school there. Went to school in different places finishing up at uh Wheaton College, well I'll go into that later I guess, but anyway became a Presbyterian minister in West Virginia. And then in Missouri. And came here [Louisville] in 1966 to be the pastor of a Presbyterian church in the west end at 37th and Broadway. So that's 2:00how I and my wife and my two children came to Louisville in [19]66.

AD: [19]66 ok. Tell me a little bit about your educational background.

TM: Well, I uh, well it really started in Korea with my mother teaching me. Um, we lived just a few yards away from a school for missionary children because we lived in the uh largest mission compound in Korea with uh over a hundred missionaries in it. Or I think it was about a hundred. And uh, so there was a school there that I could have gone to, but my mother went to Korea as a teacher and married my father after she got out there. And was still a teacher at heart 3:00and had never gotten thoroughly involved in the missionary work. Had had had been a teacher of the missionary children, and uh but had stopped that and was just taking care of me and the house. And my older brothers had gone to school, but my mother taught me. And uh, so then I came to the United States and went to school in Southern California. Went to uh, my final year, because of mother's health was in Newark, New Jersey in a prep school. (Coughs) because my brother, older brother whom I was living with thought the public school wasn't good enough. And uh, one of the reasons being was that it was heavily black and white and uh was not supposed to be a good school. So they put me in an academy for 4:00one year. Then I went to Wheaton College, and then in the Navy, and then back to Wheaton and then to Princeton seminary and that, and then after I uh at that point, that was all I had when I came here [Louisville]. After I stopped being Presbyterian minister I went back to U of L to get a degree in accounting. And then spent the last 35, 40 years as an accountant.

AD: Wow

TM: (Laughs)

AD: (Laughs)

TM: So that's my educational history! (Laughs)

AD: Wow. Well tell me a little bit about, about your siblings. You said you had an older brother--

TM: (Interrupts) Yeah. Well I had four brothers, but the two oldest ones were half brothers by my father's first wife. He didn't marry until he was 35 I guess or so. He had gone to Korea as a single man. His first wife died after the, in 5:00childbirth for her third child. Um, but they had two children then he married shortly thereafter my mother who had gone to Korea to teach. And then there were three of us that were her children. My two oldest brothers had already left Korea before I was born. (Stammers) They came to this country for schooling. My two older brothers that were still at home were 7 and 8 years older than I. And but of course I, and I (laughs) followed along trying to keep up with them as a kid. That's one of the things I remember about life at home (laughs).

AD: (Laughs). Well what, how did you first learn about race or and racism?

TM: Well, I suppose in a way, I learned a little bit by being by growing up in Korea where the people were uh, you know quote of the Asian or yellow race. But that's probably quite different from the view of race in this country which is mostly white and black. And much more stark and definitive. So in that sense, I didn't start learning about racism until I caught some glimpses of it in uh southern California. But there it was very, it was not a particular factor. 7:00There were a few blacks in our school, but you know it didn't make any impression on anybody (laughs) and uh, so. It wasn't really until Newark I guess that I began to sense that there was something about, going even for two or three weeks, to a school that was largely black was a new experience for me. It wasn't frightening at all. It was interesting. I was very much interested in it. And I kind of regretted that I didn't get to stay there. You know, not real consciously, but I do remember that. And so that's when it started I guess.

AD: Around what year was that? How old were you?

TM: I was uh, well it was my senior year in high school in 1941, [19]42. And I 8:00was what?

AD: 17, 18?

TM: 18, going on 18.

AD: And you said earlier that your brother wanted to pull you out of the public school--

TM: (Interrupts) This was oldest brother who was 20 years older than I.

AD: um hmmm

TM: He had gone to--he had a seminary degree in New York City and was the pastor, associate pastor of a major Presbyterian church in downtown Newark, New Jersey. And mother because of [her] health problems, and I were living with him and his wife and newborn son in a small apartment in Newark. And I went to the school in the neighborhood. The next things I knew someone in his congregation was a long experienced teacher in a private academy that specialized in getting 9:00people ready for high school I mean for college. And uh, this man suggested that I maybe would be good to go to Newark Academy instead of. I mean I didn't catch any strong. I don't' think it was the fact that the school was integrated that was the problem. It was just they just didn't think it was going to be the best education and I would do better in the academy. And I you know I did what I was told (laughs).

AD: Right.

TM: (Laughs) But that was a very interesting experience because I felt more out of place in Newark Academy perhaps than in any other place I have ever been in my life. Because after the first few weeks, I suddenly discovered that it was very conscious of the difference between Jew and Gentile. Jew and Christian. 10:00Somebody asked me after I did well on an exam or said, "I'm glad that a Christian did well." And I said to myself, "How does he know I'm a Christian?" I mean I don't hide it, but I don't remember that I had (laughs) uh you know. And then it suddenly dawned on me that he just meant I wasn't a Jew.

AD: Was this a student or a teacher who said this?

TM: Huh?

AD: Was it a teacher or a student?

TM: It was a student.

AD: Student.

TM: But you know I had perfectly good relationships [with the Jewish students] but we didn't live in the same worlds. Not just because of the religion and the ethnic uh, ethnicity. But they were all almost entirely of an upper class that I 11:00had never related to. And I didn't have any relationship with any of their families or anything like this. So it was a very strange experience for me.

AD: So did you eventually feel accepted or a part of it? Or did you have--

TM: (Interrupts) Oh I didn't feel excluded in any sense! It was just uh a new experience for me to be in a situation where there was a (pauses) subconscious, deep subconscious awareness of this difference. It was different than anything I'd ever experienced before. Not in Korea. Not in southern California. It was different.

AD: That's interesting. Well what is--

TM: (Interrupts) It wasn't antagonistic (pauses--laughs)

AD: It was just yeah

TM: (Interrupts) It was just (motions hand to search for word)

AD: different

TM: We came from--much more. I mean that was a much. (pauses, laughs) And I'm going on about this longer than I should (claps hands), but I had never really thought about this before in a sense (claps hands again) uh, but I felt more difference between Jew and Gentile in Newark Academy than I had between black and white in the public school.

AD: Hmmm

TM: Partly I guess because (pauses). I did understand historically the black white issue to a certain extent just you know academically. I had always assumed. I mean I never had really thought about the difference between Jew and 13:00Gentile in the same way, though as a fully committed Christian I was fully aware of all that, but I had not experienced it. The two Jewish young ladies in the high school in Monrovia, California who along with me competed for honors (laughs). I knew they were sort of different and somewhat isolated, but it was I don't know. It was just different than the black white issue in my experience.

AD: Interesting. Um, kind of staying in your childhood, what did you learn about political and social issues as a child?

TM: Well (pauses..stammers) I hadn't thought about this, even when I was thinking about this. What I learned about political and social issues was I learned them politically and socially from a very conservative Republican viewpoint. But I learned them in the context of seeing them mostly as a matter of faith, and religion and ethics. Because to me they were an expression of what it meant to follow Christ, to be a Christian. Because that was the central element that I grew up with. This was what I was about. And this is what my 15:00parents were about. But they were also involved in the world in political issues. My father had gone through the 2 or 3 wars in Korea between Japanese and Chinese between Japanese and Russians. He was heavily involved in the educational process as well as the religious process in Korea which was highly political because Korea was uh uh uh colony of Japan. And (claps hands together) so those things I came to understand them as a part of my faith rather than as something separate.

AD: How did your family abreast of what was happening in the United States? Was that something that was important that you would always keep up with what was 16:00happening? Or was it really just where you were?

TM: Well I was always aware. As far--I began as soon as I can remember things that father and mother knew what was going on in this country. We didn't talk about it extensively. But I was aware that they were Republicans, that they didn't think much of Roosevelt, were prohibitionists, (laughs) But I was aware they were on the side of the North in the Civil War, though father grew up in Madison, Indiana which is right on the Ohio River. But I mean that was the north, but (stammers). And I learned just recently that father's uh mother and father may have had slightly different perspectives on that with his mother 17:00being a little bit more confederate in her leanings than his father. But I didn't know any of that you know at the time.

AD: Can you talk about the person or persons who inspired you as you were growing up?

TM: Well my father my brothers. Uh my father was a very very substantial early leader and all his life a leader of the Christian movement in Korea. So I just grew up. And he was 60 when I was born. So he was 70 by the time I was paying much attention. But he was getting all kinds of honors and so on and so forth, but was still very much involved with things that were going on. So that subconsciously affected me very deeply. He is probably the most important influence in my life. Um, my brothers, I was always trying to keep up with them (laughs).

AD: (Laughs) Yeah that's what little brothers do!

TM: (Interrupts) I could name some other people later on. The only other person who comes close to having the same influence my father had was Anne Braden for the last 40 years of my life.

AD: Ok, do you want to--we can talk about why. Do you want to talk about Anne now for a little bit?

TM: (Hesitates) well I think maybe better later.

AD: Ok, um what was the first political or social issue that really interested you in particular?

TM: Well you know the first ones that I was aware of I can't say that they were terribly important to me, but I was conscious of them. Um, they were (pauses, 19:00stammers) the shrine because it was the center of my father's life for the last two or three years that we lived in Korea. He was leading the the protestant Christians of Korea to oppose the efforts of the Japanese to make them worship at the the emperor's shrine because they saw this as religious. The Japanese tried to paint it as patriotic, like the flag. But most of the Christians, not all, but most of the Christians could not get over the idea that it was worship, and they just thought they could not do it. And father strongly supported that view. And the Japanese put enormous pressure on him. So I was very much aware of that issue. Um (claps hands together), much lesser issues I guess that attached 20:00my attention back then when I was a child essentially. Uh, were prohibition (laughs) in this country (claps hands together) and Roosevelt's New Deal, which I didn't know anything about, but my folks were opposed to primarily. Ah, I mean they were upper class. Both of them had wealthy families. Uh, they weren't wealthy as missionaries. But their heritage was very substantial and they were thoroughly Republican (laughs).

AD: (Laughs). This may be jumping ahead in time a little bit, but can you tell me about the first social justice action you ever took?TM: Yeah, uh, I think, 21:00now I had to think about that and it was just a few minutes before you came that I suddenly decided that the first things that really qualifies in that sense was in 1964 or [19]65 I was a minister, associate pastor in a relatively small congregation in Kansas City, Missouri which was half black and half white. Very small but it had lots of support, outside support, so it could carry on a major ministry in the inner city. And I'd been there for three or four years and the civil rights movement was you know well underway. And we were involved in peripheral ways, quite actively. But I don't remember being involved in any kind 22:00of protest or demonstration in that connection, worked on the polls on some things. But towards the end of my time there in Kansas City, some of the other ministers and people in the area, I think it was mostly ministers in the area, wanted to go down to Hattiesburg, Mississippi to support the blacks who were trying to register to vote. And there had been for months a continuous demonstration marching around the courthouse to support their right which was you know being opposed and they were having a hard time getting through the lines and all that kind of stuff. So this was a major battle you know in the civil rights movement. Toward the end of it my my chief pastor had gone down 23:00earlier and then I got on board with this other group that went down and we spent a week marching around the courthouse and so forth. So that was really my first major experience.

AD: Now when you say that this congregation had a lot of "outside support." What do you mean by that?

TM: Well, it it had been a uh (stammers), we gotta keep movin. But but this does touch on. (Pauses) The Presbyterian Church is a highly connected church. Each individual congregation is not just an entity by itself. The Baptist Church is more separate and individual congregations. But the Presbyterians like the Episcopals and the Methodists are highly connected. So congregations in a certain area are part of a Presbytery. And congregations frequently that have 24:00financial difficulties and small numbers, but have a mission in what they're doing and get rather intense support from the Presbytery and from the national missions and so forth. So this congregation was the first Presbyterian church of Kansas City, Missouri. It had been a big downtown congregation like Walnut Street Baptist [Louisville, KY] (claps hands) or you know Central Presbyterian [Louisville, KY]. But it had gone downhill as those central city churches do and uh then it had a fire and uh looked as if it was no point in restoring it. But the Presbytery decided that there was still a mission in that area. So they called in an enterprising young man to be the pastor and somehow formed together a small group of people both black and white. Which I never quite--I never 25:00explored how they were able to do that because that is difficult. But this small group of people also were not only a congregation, but there was a community center. They built a small new building which was designed as a community center and church. And mostly the community center aspect was uh heavily subsidized. But some also the church. Because by the time I came there was not only the pastor, but I was the associate pastor, the assistant at first, an associate pastor. There was a ministry a minister of music. And then later a youth director. The first two were white. Those last two were black. So anyway this 26:00was supported by the churches of the area and from the central headquarters which at that time was in New York. It was an intensive effort. It still exists under a somewhat different form which is a long story, but I won't go into (laughs).

AD: That's interesting. Lets talk a little bit directly about the Kentucky Alliance. When did you first learn about the Kentucky Alliance?

TM: Well shortly after it was formed I guess. Uh, but I had--ever since I, one of the first people that I came to know when I moved to Louisville to be pastor of that church on 37th and Broadway was Anne Braden. And uh, then through her 27:00and others became active in what was the uh, West (stammers) well what was it now? West Louisville Community uh oh anyway

AD: (Interrupts) this is the, was it the WECC?

TM: Yeah! West End Community Council?

AD: Yes.

TM: (laughs) Ok. I became active my wife and I both became active in that along with Anne and others. And so the Kentucky Alliance came along later. I was not part of the group that with Anne formed it and wasn't aware that that was happening. I think the first time I understood that something like that had come together was when I was working with Progress in Education. In which that group 28:00of people who had either already or later on would form the Kentucky Alliance were active in Progress in Education. That's where I met Bob Cunningham who was I think perhaps the first chair of the Kentucky Alliance. I had already known Anne and some others. So it was through Anne and the West End Community Council and the Progress in Education that I discovered many of them were involved in the Kentucky Alliance in the mid [19]70's. I was a little leery about, I just didn't jump over and start I don't even remember when I first learned that such a group was in existence. But I didn't jump in because I was a Presbyterian minister (pauses) well no, I was no longer a Presbyterian minister. I had just 29:00in [19]72 left the ministry for reasons that I could explain. Not because I, because I basically felt that I didn't belong as a pastor. I was still a very active member of and became a member of Grace Hope Presbyterian in Smoketown instead of staying with the congregation because it's not wise for a pastor to stay with a congregation they've been with before. But I was still fundamentally interested in my role as a Christian uh as a Presbyterian and my work in the community was how I expressed that. But the Kentucky Alliance, and I had tried 30:00to get Anne to join the to help the church that I had served in the West End even though she was--I knew quickly that she was somebody that was dangerous to associate with because she had a name of being a Communist and all these other things. Well that didn't bother me, but the idea of joining or getting active with the Kentucky Alliance which had an even, that was definitely a radical organization that was associated with Communists made me step back and say, "Do I want to lose credibility with my Christian friends? With my Presbyterian 31:00friends?" (nervous laugh). My family and most of the people I know in the church would wonder if I was really a Christian if I joined with Communists who claimed to be atheists, ok? (claps hands). And so I knew that this organization was in existence, but I didn't even really think about actively getting connected until I got a call from Beverly Marmion who was the daughter of a Episcopal minister, bishop who invited me to come to a meeting. And I expressed to her my reasons for not jumping at the thought. I mean she knew that I was friends with all of the people and so forth. And she urged me to well come and see what it's like. 32:00And I said, "Well that's the least I can do." (laughs) and I went and I've been there ever since. (Laughs).

AD: And so what year was that?

TM: Probably [19]75, but I don't have any (stammers) date that I can pinpoint.

AD: And so what were some of the things that were said? Or what happened at that first meeting that--

TM: (Interrupts) I have no recollection.

AD: (Laughs)

TM: What I remember from the first meeting is that it was a group of people that I felt perfectly comfortable with who were clearly there not to promote anything 33:00except to, I mean not to promote any particular ideology, political ideology. Who said we want to work with anybody who is for racial justice and to oppose racial discrimination. We don't care if you are a Jew or Gentile, a Protestant or a Catholic, a Communist or a Socialist, or a Republican or a Democrat. We just want to agree to disagree on some of those things if we can agree that we are all part of the human race and we need to treat each other that way. And as far as I could tell it was obvious that some were had this political persuasion or this religious persuasion. They didn't hide it. I couldn't tell. I mean those that had Communist connections didn't make a point of identifying whether they 34:00were actually Communist Party members or not. You know that was something they preferred to leave ambiguous. So it was pretty clear to me which ones were probably Communist and which ones were probably not. But you never really knew and that didn't bother me. And uh, that was the primary issue, not black white relationships. It was a clearly a radical organization because of its Communist connections even more so than because of its black white, although that was significant at that time I mean uh you didn't lightly join a multi-racial group without understanding that it had consequences. But the other was much more severe.

AD: And so talk a little bit about you know this idea of Communist connection. I know you said that some of the folks were suspected to be. How much of it was real? And how much of this was rumor? And conjecture?

TM: Well I don't suppose I know, but I have some strong ideas about it (AD and TM laugh). Because without ever asking anybody, "Are you or are you not a member of the Communist Party?" I would say that 3 or 4 of the founding members were active members of the Communist Party. And some of them were still active when I 36:00was first started and stayed active and maybe are still active, ok? Um, but I have no, I've never tried to share with anybody what individuals I put in that category because I mean my guess is no better than anybody else's. I mean I guess it may be a little more informed than somebody else's.

AD: Umm hmm.

TM: Uh, if I was to be, I don't think there's any secret about most of this stuff. I mean people talk about it. I suspect personally that Anne was not a member of the Communist Party that Carl was. That's my personal. But I have no objective evidence to go on.

AD: Right.

TM: (Laughs)

AD: Well what did you, once you became involved with the Alliance, what were you hoping to achieve um through your work with the Alliance?

TM: Well I was, fundamentally I uh thought about this and I think it boils down to (pauses) I was when I was it was an extension of my involvement in the West End Community Council. It really was the next things that came along that was the closest to what the West End Community Council had been which was blacks and whites working together actively in public ways to express their solidarity and to oppose any attacks on blacks and discriminating actions against blacks in a 38:00public, open way with action and not just with words. But so, I did that very consciously as an expression of my Christian faith. I didn't see it as something, in other words, I saw it as a part of being a Christian as a part of being a member of a church community of a family of people. This was a way to express my faith in action. Uh, you know the Bible says "You can say 'Lord, Lord!', but what do you do?" This was the way I thought the best way because and 39:00partly because the church itself is very timid about this. And I found in order to be free to really take action it was much quicker to get into action with the Kentucky Alliance than with my local congregation. I tried to include the congregation and other members of the congregation and have some mutual back and forth but you know I consciously began to put more and more effort into the Alliance because it was ready to go and expressed what I believed was my Christian concern.

AD: Well you've been active in the Alliance since you know the mid [19]70's, so 40:00I know that there's been a lot of different issues and actions that you've taken. Can you give me some highlights of some of the major actions and issues that you've worked on?

TM: Yeah, well I had a chance to think about that a little. It's not hard. Um, the Alliance formed not around the issue of schools, it formed because of Angela Davis' experience in prison of being repressed and persecuted because of her beliefs rather than her actions. And when she got out, she and Anne and Carl and others felt the need for this kind of organization to stand against repression and oppression. Uh, but it formed at a time in Louisville when the other 41:00organizations when the West End Community Council had been kind of repressed out of existence when the anti-busing forces were threatening to take over the city and so the anti-busing situation was perhaps the fundamental issue going on in the community when the Alliance was in its early stages. But uh that had already before the Alliance came really strong that was sort of over the hump in a sense it did never go away. But the initial confrontations had died down. And uh, so what I remember earliest in the formal existence of the Kentucky Alliance was 42:00relatively frequent instances of cross burnings in different sections of the city when a black family moved in to the southwest to the southeast Okolona, or Valley Station or something like that. There would be a cross burning and the family would either have to leave or go through, and what the Alliance tried to do in those situations was quickly when the first news of this came out to provide some kind of visible support to the family opposition to the unfairness. And I remember, one of the earliest things I remember doing with the Kentucky Alliance was being in a big circle of maybe 40 or 50 people in the Algonquin shopping center. The cross burning was somewhere out in the southwest a little 43:00farther out. But we'd gathered there to have some kind of a protest. And it was, you know the Alliance was only 10 or 15 people, but it had connections through Anne and others with. And so the call went out and there were 40 or 50 people that showed up for this. And that's been true of the Kentucky Alliance ever since that it's been able to reach into a variety of other organization and groups and get support for its efforts.

AD: What were some other issues?

TM: Well yeah (laughs). So that went on for some time. Of course its dwindled and it rears its head every once in a while. But um, there was ongoing uh uh effort. Well let me say first of all, we also took on, had people come to us 44:00with complaints about discrimination at the job. So there was recurring instances where we would uh send a delegation to either have a protest or meet with a representative of a company to try to get them to deal more fairly. There were different ways of dealing with that. Uh lets see, job discrimination, the housing, cross burnings, the school, that has never gone away even though it has died down. And uh we got actively involved in various stages in uh problems of school discipline that were unfair to uh black students and in other aspects of the school situation. We uh every so often paid a great deal of attention to 45:00those school issues. Alliance people have been part of the monitoring committee that the school system set up for a while. And uh we have followed the Supreme Court decisions and the various changes in the assignment plan and so on and so forth. So that's been a recurring effort that has been has been particularly hot recently. Um, and the Alliance has always had a significant, I would say significant impact on that like along with the NAACP and so forth. Lets see what else, oh ah, early on before I became quite as aware of some of the inner workings of the Alliance there was quite a bit going on with regard to the prison situation. I understand that some of the early work that led to a consent 46:00decree to force the correctional system to make some changes in the prisons. Uh the Alliance had something to do with supporting that effort which was largely a legal effort. Uh, and I remember that some of our first, after we got our first Executive Director in Mattie Jones one of our first additional staff people for a while was Robert Jones who had been on death row and was working in the prison situation. So we've had an ongoing work on the prison problems and on those 47:00kinds of things. And we still have an active uh prisoner rights committee. And uh then uh recurring throughout the work of the Alliance has been the matter of police abuse. Every time that has flared up the Alliance has been very much involved along with others like Louis Coleman and so on and so forth. Um, so that so I would say those are some of the main areas that we've been involved in.

AD: And so, of course I'm sure through all of these issues your particular role or what you've done in response to these issues has changed. But can you tell me about the various roles you've played in the Alliance over the years?

TM: Well yeah, it has been very interesting. Well uh I spent the first, as I told you; I just came to meetings for a while. I don't have any recollection of when I considered that I had actually joined. I probably paid a $15 membership at some point and became a member. But that really wasn't I mean we tried to get memberships just as an expression of commitment because it wasn't something that people did lightly. I mean if you were out in the public you had some reservations about anybody saying, "Oh he's a member of the" it was almost as bad as being a member of the Communist Party. Um, so we did try to get memberships, but we didn't worry if someone didn't want to be a member, they were perfectly welcome to come and participate just as if they were a member. We didn't pay any attention to that. In fact, it was some time before I remember 49:00there was any election to a board, as far as I remember whoever was there was the Kentucky Alliance. I really don't remember specifically when that changed, but it was at some point. There were some elections there were board members and there have been for years a board of directors with by laws, and so on and so forth. So whenever that did happen, I probably became a member of the board as far as I can know, remember, I've been a member of the board ever since there was a board. Uh, my earliest role was as treasurer. I wasn't, I remember who I took over from, but it was a long time ago (laughs). And I remained treasurer for 25 or 30 years. And uh because by that time I was an accountant and it sort 50:00came naturally. And uh, uh but I don't know that I would say that in one way was a very important contribution and way that I contributed to the Alliance, but it has never been really the reason why I was there. I was always there because of my interest in what we were doing and participated actively as far as I know from the first time I showed up at a meeting and discussions and conversation and trying to have some influence on what we did. But I've never been what you would call a aggressive leader, I've been more of a follower. I listen, pitch in 51:00my two cents and then do what we all decide to do. And uh, I was very happily a lieutenant I guess you would say for Anne Braden. I had no desire to, I've never had any desire, other than being the treasurer, never had any leadership role. But I would say I am by virtue of longevity of the active board members, probably looked upon as in some sense as the successor to Anne Braden. Um, but you know I'm consciously trying to get out of that and I'm going to have to resign from the board before too long just to make sure that everyone understands that I'm (laughs) getting old and decrepit (laughs). But all of that 52:00to be fairly honest and open about what I do in the Alliance, I've been a follower, but an active follower and I've had a lot do with shaping the Alliance, but uh uh. Playing into that also is the fact that for both Anne and me that the Kentucky Alliance is about something that is very difficult in this society. It is about equal participation by blacks and whites which almost never happens. I mean I don't hesitate to be, exaggerate perhaps, because I don't think I exaggerate. Because one or the other tends to be a token or a lesser partner. And I'm sure that's true in the Alliance. I don't know if we've ever 53:00reached perfection. And I think it goes back and forward to some extent. But in this country the tilt is biased toward whites. So whites more than blacks have to be cautious and aware of that and uh it's just a fact of life that uh. And I'm going to maybe jump the gun and say I think that it's related to this whole largely unrecognized fact of white power and privilege that both whites and blacks take for granted subconsciously. Blacks are angry about it, but they 54:00subconsciously are infected by it. Whites have difficulty accepting it and are reluctant to really believe it. Well uh and certainly don't see for the most part for how deeply how it infects black people. White people see blacks as angry, crazy people with no justification. They don't have any sense of how true it is that underneath blacks don't have the same (pauses) from the beginning 55:00understanding of security and confidence. They almost start out feeling inferior and it's a big journey for them to overcome that. So that difference is just very very hard to deal with.

AD: Well--

TM: (starts again) and I didn't I mean I've been in this for 40 years and it's only been in the very last few years that I've become much more conscious of that.

AD: Well lets talk about um multi racial organizing. Um, can you describe the racial makeup of the Alliance ? I know it has probably varied over the years.

TM: Well it does vary, but I think it has been remarkably consistent. Ever since I can remember, I don't consciously remember any meeting of the Alliance that was all white or all black. There may have happened. And you know obviously two white people get together that belong to the Alliance or three, but a meeting of a committee or any public meeting. I just don't remember that happening. It's not always equal, but they are always represented. As far as the quote unquote membership and and let me--you have to think of the Alliance as the board the slightly larger circle that involves some others who are almost act as if they 57:00are almost board members, come to most board members I mean board meetings. We don't technically if we ever come to a vote we don't expect them to vote we listen to them just as much. Although we are area of who are board members and who isn't. But there is a larger circle of quote unquote members which we define now as anyone who has contributed. We don't really differentiate between somebody who contributes and who signs as a member. We used to because people wanted to be able to say, "Well I contributed, but I'm not a member." (Laughs) I don't think people have that concern anymore so we don't pay any attention. But 58:00whatever the category then there is you know everyone on our mailing list which is about 3,500 people. Uh whatever the category the proportion between black and white I would say varies from possibly two-thirds, one-third down to fifty-fifty. And it's--it may depend on which category you are talking about at any give time which way it is black or white. Overall I would say the overall impact of the Alliance is because of the numbers in Louisville of 40-percent black and 60-percent white. But the board is currently two thirds black and one 59:00third white and that may have been fairly consistent.

[Interruption-telephone rings]

TM: Well I've gone on and on about that long enough. It is it's pretty uh you know it it varies, but it's in the central between 35 and 35 on the other end.

AD: Ok, and you talked about you know issues of power and privilege--

TM: (Interrupts) well I was talking about it and you know it is a ongoing, very conscious effort on the part of the Alliance to deal with those [power and privilege issues]. They come and go and they never go away. We deal with them more or less openly, but it's not easy and people differ as to how comfortable they are recognizing it. I don't pretend that uh everybody would put it the same 60:00way I do. I don't think I'm going to say that maybe some of them are not we have quite a few active board members and others in the Alliance that haven't given it as much thought as I have, but I'm sure there are some have.

AD: Um

TM: And I would say that when Anne died. It became we became much more aware of some of those issues than we had before that (pauses). Because although Anne 61:00tried very hard to not be the center of the Kentucky Alliance she never could completely avoid it as long as she lived. And uh I don't think and I'm going to say that I think I think it was partly because she of her own personal characteristics she was not a (stammers) leave it up to others kind of person. She wanted things to go right. And she was in some senses a controlling kind of person. But she consciously tried to share with blacks because she knew, but it 62:00was not easy for her to give in to people when she had strong opinions, no matter if they were white or black. And that's what part of what the Alliance is about we need to be able to disagree with each other, and when we do disagree, we don't just say, "Well I'll go along with the blacks." Or "I'll go along with the whites." And she was very much in that, and being a more controlling kind of person than many of the others, I would say that as long as she lived it was difficult for a black person of similar strength to hold their ground. I think 63:00we have some who gave up. (Pause) When she died there has been a much more equal struggle for power (laughs) it has its messy side. It was very obvious to me and I think to the whole community in a sense. Because the Alliance came very close to dying like dozens of organizations losing their founding center have done. I think we're past that, but you know we don't know what's coming.

AD: How do you think the Alliance survived? How did you all come together?

TM: Well it's because there was a solid foundation. You know whatever the 64:00weaknesses of the Alliance and of Anne [Braden], or me, or Bob [Cunningham] or whoever has been Mattie [Jones] (claps hands). All of us have our weaknesses or our strengths and uh but there is something that has bound us together and kept us going. And it, we had some struggles, but I think we have come out of it getting stronger by the day (claps hands). Younger people are beginning to you know, you know some of them, are taking the place and that's still a struggle it's still in process, but its happening. But the financial aspect is very weak. Surprisingly so to me. But that was no doubt partially exacerbated by the 65:00recession, but other than the financially aspect other areas of our work have really started to come together and we still uh we're still FAR from being the strong uh, grassroots organization that we want to be and claim to be. You know. Our committees struggle and uh you know and we mess up, but you know through it all it just has come back together again in a remarkable way to me.

AD: You talked a little bit earlier about how the Alliance works you know has 66:00been able to have a network of other organizations to call upon. Can you talk about some of the organizations in town that the Alliance collaborates with?

[Interruption-telephone rings]

AD: Ok, I was asking you before the phone ring to tell me about some of the other social justice organizations here in Louisville that the Alliance collaborates with.

TM: Yeah, ok. Well the other social justice organizations we've been actively involved with. I would say the first one that I was aware of was the Fellowship of Reconciliation [FOR]. I believe it was Beverly Marmion who was the person who invited me right at the start was on the board was a member of the Kentucky Alliance representing FOR consciously for that purpose. Then uh, I'm not aware 67:00then there was another person that was on the board a nun, I'm not sure she was there representing any particular Catholic organization, but she did serve as a bridge to the Catholic community which was important. I'm not aware of any other relationships in those earlier years to semi-formal to organizations as such, but there was always a group of Anne's acquaintances and other people. We were certainly aware of the NAACP and other organizations, but I don't think there 68:00were any semi-formal relationships. Back in those days there weren't a lot of social justice organizations as far as I recall. They have developed over the years to become a large network, and Anne was very much involved in keeping us connected to increasing numbers of them. And so now it extends to the housing those related to neighborhoods, those related to housing, those related to women's issues, those related to sexual orientation issues. Its its expanded to beyond the field of racial you know like NAACP or the Justice Resource Center 69:00which were primarily about race it has expanded greatly to include a lot of different areas. Which I think is very very significant and very important. And in fact, I sometimes wish there was a way for our name to be changed so that it wasn't so (pauses) narrowly focused. Because it seems to me the black white issue in this country has never gone away, but it is more divisive than some of the others. And we need to see that it is part of the same issue whether it is you know that we're all not anti-racist only we are anti-anti (laughs) we are 70:00positive for a human race that encompasses all these kinds of people. So I wish we could, uh I don't think it's practical to change the name, but I wish we could.

AD: That's interesting. Well you, you said one of the words I wanted you to talk about which is anti-racism. What does anti-racism mean to you?

TM: Well it means to me primarily taking action. I think it has to be more than words. It has to be more than conversation. It has to be more than getting to know you personally. It has to be standing beside you to take the heat. To uh uh 71:00get involved. And so being anti-racist is to share the burden to take a stand alongside of. And uh I don't know what else to say.

AD: Do you consider yourself an anti-racist?

TM: Yeah.

AD: Why would you say that?

TM: Well uh (stammers) I could go a long way back and say that from my first experiences something led me to feel that I needed to uh stick up for to stand with people who were experiencing problems through no fault of their own. Increasingly my expression of my Christian faith has been to find ways to do 72:00that. Uh, I don't know what else.

AD: How would you summarize the mission or overall goals of the Alliance?

TM: Well I would say it is to to bring in the first instance blacks and whites together to take action visible action and these are words that Anne [Braden] formulated that I'm repeating in one way or another to take visible action in support of justice and fairness. Um to overcome the divide to uh uh uh so uh and 73:00to extend that into every, not just on a personal level or even primarily, though it has to include the personal level, but is also has to include the institutional level and the ways in which we perpetuate things that we don't that we may have overcome in our minds, but we still participate in them because of the institutions and the way that they operate. So it's a very complex, long range process that uh. And as uh I've already indicated it initially involves race, but it involves but that's a myth. Race is something that we have invented. It doesn't it isn't in our genes. We all came from the same ancestor. 74:00We're not of different races. We're not different anymore because of the color of our skin than uh if one of us has a pimple here or pimple there (AD laughs) you know or one of us is left handed or right handed you know or brown eyed or black eyed. You know so it doesn't make any sense the way that we've this one drop blood, I mean there is no such thing as a person with one drop, we all have millions of drops (laughs). And uh, so I don't know what I'm going on about--

AD: You were talking about the overall

TM: (Interrupts) What?AD: You were talking about the overall goals and mission of the Alliance.

TM: Well so the mission and goals of the Alliance is to start with the uh start at the bottom start with the grassroots and build an effective organizational movement because an individual is very limited in what they can do. So the Kentucky Alliance seeks to enlarge the circle of those who are seeking to join blacks and whites and people of all descriptions in the search of a common humanity. In search of a community justice, in search of a common good. And it is the same goal that that every religion professes that every nation professes. 76:00I mean we talk about the United States of America founded for the good of all, but we fight about getting our share instead of sharing. And so I mean it's all part of this--that the that's the the mission of the Kentucky Alliance is not to just help people, not just to put a band-aid on, not just to perform social service, which is important, and which we do. But the mission of the Alliance is to get us empowered to work together to change things. Uh, and it's not easy to stick with that because it's much easier for instance to get funds to feed the 77:00needy than it is to get funds to encourage the young people of Egypt to take over the government.

AD: Right.

TM: (Laughs) The government doesn't want that to happen. The companies don't want that to happen. Sometimes you and I don't want that to happen. (AD laughs). We think its dangerous (laughs)

AD: You said earlier, and we've talked about Anne [Braden] throughout a little bit, you said that Anne was one of the people who inspired you most over the last several decades. So talk to me about Anne and what about Anne inspired you. And you have to talk to me as if I don't know anything about Anne Braden.

TM: (Laughs) Well I didn't know anything about Anne Braden when I first met her. I had come but it was two or three weeks after I arrived in Louisville. I was 78:00the white pastor of a Presbyterian Church at 37th and Broadway which in [19]66 had that church had two or three years before had responded to the fact that blacks were moving into formerly white neighborhood by opening its doors in some way that I never really discovered how that happened because it was one of the first mainline congregations to do so. Uh along with Gilbert Schroelucke's church Methodist church which was right across the street. Uh but when I came to be pastor the largely white congregation had 10 or 14 members who were black one 79:00or two, one at least was on the session. One was on the pastoral nominating committee that listened to my trial sermon and said whether I could come to Louisville or not. That person that black on that nominating committee was Georgia Davis Powers and so I credit her with letting me come to Louisville (AD and TM laugh). I'm sure if she said no, this largely white congregation would have thought twice. But anyway so here I am as the white pastor of the white congregation that is trying to reach out, but you know is dragging its feet in some ways. I don't, I do remember I think either an associate of Anne's or Anne 80:00herself walking with me to a meeting in the neighborhood about some zoning that was going to go on. You know which has the West End Community Council and Anne and others had interest making sure it didn't make the situation worse between blacks and whites and so forth. And so we both ended up going to this meeting because we thought it was significant. Even though I was a brand new pastor who was supposed to be doing other things (laughs). Uh you might say. But we had a moment of conversation and uh uh I don't remember how much I learned at that 81:00particular point, but very soon I learned that we [TM and Anne Braden] had a lot in common. And very soon I learned that she told me you don't want to have anything to do with me because it will be a problem in your church. And I took that with a grain of salt, but I soon discovered that it was true. But I didn't let it bother me, so we continued to have off and on relationships and I admired her from a distance. And she was involved in the West End Community Council, my wife and I got involved so we continued to have relationships. Um, I invited her to participate in my church and said [she] I'm already involved and you don't want me anyway, and I said well it doesn't bother me, but I'm sure it will bother my congregation, but we'll just have to take that as it comes. But she didn't take me up on it. But it was at St. George's Episcopal. And, but one of 82:00the young ladies, black young lady, that worked in the SCEF [Southern Conference Educational Fund] office with Anne became somewhat involved in our congregation. She was a singer and she sang a solo for us one Sunday, and Anne came to listen. And one of the members of the congregation stood up and I don't think maybe said something and then walked out, and uh never would speak to me again. And um (stammers) it didn't have any serious ramifications, but it makes you notice (laughs). And uh, but you know we continued to have good relationships. So all of that to say well she was involved in Kentucky in the Progress in Education 83:00which I got involved in, and I became aware that she and others had formed the Kentucky Alliance and when I went I discovered she was active and we continued from there on to uh. I never got what you would call closely involved with her until quite a few years later. In those early years in the Alliance Mattie [Jones] and Anne (coughs) Mattie Jones who I think took over as chair from Bob Cunningham (coughs) and then became, when we got a grant, became our Executive Director. Mattie and Anne were clearly the leaders of the Alliance. And uh, I was just a flunkie participant. (AD laughs). I mean I was a participant I was involved, but I didn't take any other than being the treasurer I was no more 84:00important than anybody else. Um, and didn't get, it wasn't until a few years later that Rhenda Frye decided that she didn't want to keep on doing the mailing list on her computer that I agreed to take that over. And beginning with that, adding that to my responsibilities along with treasurer, I began to work much more closely with Anne and others in the leadership of the Alliance and came to be relied on I think as sort of the volunteer um uh office person in a sense, 85:00dealing with the treasurers work and the mailing list, mailings and stuff like that. And so from them on I began to work much more closely with her [Mattie Jones] and the successive executive directors and uh uh took a more active role in the work of the Alliance. (Central heat comes on) And throughout it was clear that no matter who was the chairperson no matter who was the executive director Anne was the central uh point about which we all revolved. With different chair people and with different executive directors her role changed to a certain extent, but it never completely disappeared. And uh, but they did have very differing relationships about which I could go into at length (laughs).

AD: Well uh, so what about Anne, you know once you got closer to her and started working with her what were aspects of her personality or what were her particular skills and talents or ideas that she had that were inspirational to you?

TM: Well (pauses-loud noise is central heat blower) I've never really tried to formulate this, but I'll try (laughs). Uh (pauses) well I've already touched on one that I felt that was perhaps a little bit of a problem uh her perfectionist streak which I would say was at the heart of her difficulty in uh sharing responsibility. There was always kind of a tug of war even with strong leaders 87:00when Anne felt that they were uh settling for something a little bit less than what she wanted. And um, so that tended to have a, in my opinion I became more and more aware of this and it tended to be drawback to the growth of the and the expansion of the membership and leadership. On the other hand, her involvement in the community and her deep sense of commitment was one of the things that involved the community. What I'm saying is when people got involved, the strongest leaders had some difficulty in adjusting to working with Anne. So in 88:00my opinion (pauses) we have had sort of a revolving door so that people like me who are content to be followers have stayed. Strong leaders, like for instance Mattie Jones, have tended to part company at some point. And I could name others, but I'll stop there. [Three sentences not included in the transcript here at the request of the interviewee. TM says it is ok for the information to remain unrestricted on the tape]. But anyway, what I'm fundamentally trying to 89:00illustrate is (pause), I could be exaggerating this Amber, you know, you have to take me for what I'm worth. Uh, but anyway, so I could go on and on about her strengths, and I don't know of any other weakness that I would express. Her strengths were her connection to the community, her her she I mean she didn't know she was willing to work with anybody. She uh she tried to keep people together. Uh I mean she didn't, some of the people she worked with were a little 90:00quicker to write this person off or write that person off and Anne just tired her hardest to keep everyone involved. She would have been painfully (stammers) she would have had a lot of pain about some of the things that happened after she left [died]. We had some real fights and even uh would say we consciously pushed one or two people out because they were causing so much problem. She would have found that very difficult because she would have wanted everybody to stay in. Uh and as long as she was there it was more possible for all except the the the I would say the strongest leaders, and I would even say they didn't 91:00break ties with Anne, they certainly didn't feel that they were comfortable. They just couldn't exert enough influence in the Alliance. But uh that's uh, so anyway, she was a uniter much more than a divider. Because of all these kinds of connections she helped us to overcome our reluctance to get involved with the fairness [rights for lesbians, gays, bisexual and transgendered people]. That was a very difficult issue for many people in the Alliance, and uh I could go into that at great length. Uh so, and she had connections outside in the larger [U.S.] South in the larger nation which were very valuable for us. She had 92:00connections in government and business and you know you could go on and on. You know she had a knack for fundraiser (laughs) and uh all those things we miss. (Central air blower cuts off), we miss very greatly. But uh, and she was, now I'm going to get a little more personal. She was so driven by her social consciousness that I never found it possible to I didn't feel comfortable getting to know her on a personal level as well as some others in the Alliance. 93:00Because she she was a good mother, but she she was so totally immersed in her work that she didn't have time for her family she didn't have time for friends except at they related to the work. (Background squeaky sound is TM rubbing his shoes together as he talks). I'm exaggerating perhaps but uh I always wished I could know her a little more in the way that I know say Bob Cunningham or some of the younger people like Shameka [Parrish-Wright]. Uh you know, I feel much closer to them personally than I ever did to Anne.

AD: Is there uh, and we've talked about a lot, is there anything that you would like to talk about that I haven't asked you about?

TM: (Pauses) Well I'll go back to, well I thought about this Amber, and the thing that I maybe want to wrap up with is is that I touched on earlier. I guess I let it get in earlier too. Um, I do feel, well as I've said in a number of ways this is to me an expression of who I am, of the fact that I am I've always understood myself, as long as I can remember, as a child of God who is in this world to be his representative. Representing the one who embodies him, for me it 95:00was Jesus Christ. But who is larger than any sectarianism and who is for all the world for Mohammedans, and uh Buddhists who may not call his name, but I think somehow or another in the Christian faith is about God loved the world and there is stuff in there [the Bible] about coming through Jesus, but there is also stuff that everybody will come. And so the Alliance is one way to express that we are all part of a human race. It's not black white, it's all of us, and it's not about getting our share, it's about sharing. And it's about making sure that 96:00we all participate. And uh, it has been a progression for me from my father to uh my brothers to the church to the West End Community Council to the Kentucky Alliance to Fairness and none of these things has happened automatically or easily. And they have ALL happened, I never got this in before, they have all happened because of the experiences of my life. They did not start from my genes. I have two living brothers, full brothers, who have had different 97:00experiences and who have not who do not share this perspective. We are both, we are all committed followers of Christ, but they do not understand what I'm talking about. Even though they grew up and spent most of their lives in Korea, and they understand something about in the terms of relationships to that culture they don't see that there is a similar relationship to the African American culture in this country. Uh because they have not had the experiences. They did not for some reason or other go through the experience of being in a mine camp in West Virginia and discovering that the black miners were on the top row (stammers) of going to inner-city Wheeling and discovering that the black children in our church (pauses) who were welcomed into kindergarten were not welcome in Sunday School. And going to Kansas City and discovering a more 98:00intimate involvement with some African American members of the congregation, who were welfare mothers but (laughs) soul mates of mine. And and closer to God in the spirit than I was. And coming to Louisville in the midst of the Open Housing Movement and being welcomed as a part of that movement. And then you know this whole experience of having not only two daughters of my own, but having people like Shameka [Parrish-Wright] and Christy [Swan, active in the Alliance some time ago] who I almost feel are my daughters, and they have not had that 99:00experience. I talk about it, but to some extent it just does in one ear and out the other. So you know it is the experiences of our lives that make us what we are. And it is the experience of being together with people who are different from us that changes us much more than what we read or see. So I think it has been probably the most significant thing in my life was that after my wife and I divorced, it never occurred to me since then to move out of this [black] community. And I try to say when I get the chance to any white person that will listen. "If you really want to make a difference, come live in the black community." It gives you a whole new understanding [Interruption-telephone rings]. But that's a very personal observation (laughs).

[End of Interview]