Interview with Fran Thomas

Todd Read: Ok. Today is February 26, 2011. Todd Read. Oral History interview with Mrs. Fran Thomas. Ok. We'll just start off with a simple one. Can you state your name and age?

Fran Thomas: Francis L. Thomas, and I am eighty-three.

TR: All right. Thank you. Just back to kind of the beginning. Could you tell me just a little bit about your family? Where are you from originally? Are you from this area originally?

FT: Ok. I'm from Alabama. Ok? I came here at seven. And went to elementary school and Jackson Jr. High and Central High School, Municipal College. Ughh. 1:00[Husband answers a phone call in the dining room] And, um, my family was very poor, you know. They were sharecroppers in Alabama and I had to walk five miles to school so, I, they made a, mother and sister made an agreement that we would stay with them in the summer and go to Alabama in the summer and move and come here in the winter and go to school. I had a little cousin that sort of roamed around with me.

TR: You said you had other, was there other family here already?

FT: Yes, I had an aunt with a large family here, and uh, my mother's baby sister was here. She was her younger one.

TR: Ok. All right. Thank you, that's perfect. And, did your whole family eventually come to Louisville or did they stay?

FT: My mother stayed in Alabama and she never came here and I just stayed after 2:00I came out of high school. And I married and had five children. Um, a boy and four girls. Um, I mean a girl and four boys. [Mrs. Thomas suffered a recent stroke and was very concerned about finding the right words. She was very nervous during the interview] Ok. And divorced at an early age. So, I married Virgil Thomas who was military, so that sort of changed my whole, whole everything.

TR: Right. Right.

FT: We moved to, from Louisville to Fort Knox because he was in the service and ughh, that was a new life. A new life being discriminated against because I was a civilian.TR: Ok, right. I understand.

FT: You know, and by the time I got to looking at their shoulder and seeing their rank and looking over here [pointing to left upper breast area] and getting their name was really confusing to me.

TR: Right. What branch, I guess Army?

FT: Yes, Army.

TR: Ok, I was just making sure. I'm a civilian myself so I didn't know about that.

FT: You didn't know about that?

TR: No, I don't know a whole lot about that so I can imagine it would be different.

FT: So, then I was working at Children's Hospital here doing open-heart surgery, ok? I was a surgical tech. I'm L.P.N. [Licensed Practical Nurse], you know. I graduated L.P.N. So, um, after going to Fort Knox and then I filed a discrimination suit because of my sex. They would not let me work in surgery 4:00because I was a female.

TR: Ok. I see.

FT: And I had done open-heart surgery so I--

TR: Definitely were qualified.

FT: [giggles] I was qualified to go into surgery. So I opt out and then they offered me another higher position in a clinic that I could work five days a week and that was much, much better.

TR: All right.

FT: I remember in a, the discrimination in the South. Riding the train in the open caboose, you know, where, close to the engine it was very dirty. And having to sit on the back of the bus and all of those things.

TR: Right. So those formative years when you are able to see all of that. Actually, that is kind of the question that I was going to ask. What were the first moments that you--FT: Really?

TR: Really, that you remember, kind of inspired you to get into activism?

FT: To be defensive?

TR: [Laughs] In some ways, yes.

FT: What inspired me to be aware was Alberta Jones. I don't know whether you remember her. She was an African-American attorney that came up missing.

TR: Ok. The name sounds familiar.

FT: Yes. Look her up. [Alberta Jones was one of the first African-American females to pass the Bar exam in Kentucky. She was active against discrimination. She was murdered in 1965 and the case has never been solved. Find more information here: http://www.uky.edu/Libraries/NKAA/record.php?note_id=1454]

Put her down [to me as I was writing the name down on paper]. Although I was living in Beecher Terrace in the housing project and why I got involved in the independent voting association was with Alberta. And she was, made me aware of 6:00the political aspect of--surrounding all of this, you know, that was going on because Louisville was right on the border. It was not like Alabama. Or, I can't remember just being openly, saying you have to go to the back of the bus.

TR: What age was this? How old were you at the time?

FT: With Alberta?

TR: Right, with Alberta.

FT: That was probably about twenty-two or twenty-three.

TR: All right.

FT: Uh huh, I was grown.

TR: Ok. And were you still living in Fort Knox?

FT: I was living in Beecher Terrace.

TR: Oh, that's right, you said that.

FT: I was rambling.

TR: [Laughs] No, I just completely missed it. Now, you said you attended school 7:00here? Municipal college?

FT: I went to municipal college because we couldn't go to U of L [The University of Louisville, Kentucky].

TR: Ok, right, at that time. And then, you said your professional career; you said you were an L.P.N.? How long were you practicing?

FT: Ah, I practiced for about thirty years, ok?

TR: Yes. Did you, was there any specific political atmosphere at home? I know you said Alberta Jones kind of pulled you into some of the voting situations and other things. But, was there anything at home that inspired you? Family?

FT: No, Political, no. I was not involved in the demonstrations. I guess I was 8:00busy raising a family. And I can understand people not being involved because you have to focus on raising a family.

TR: Right. It takes a lot of time.

FT: It takes a lot of time and so politically I was not involved. I only fought my little bitty battles for myself, you know. I would get involved in, like, filing the discrimination suit with the government, against the government, because of my sex. And the fact that they would not let me live in Valley Station because the house that I chose to live in was not in an integrated 9:00neighborhood. And I fought that.

TR: And how did that, you said the first lawsuit, they offered you a different position?

FT: Yeah, that was the first one.

TR: And what was the second one? What was the outcome of the Valley Station one?

FT: The outcome was that I got the house.

TR: Ok, good.

FT: Uh, huh. It was in a subdivision in Valley Station off of Johnsontown Road that I, and they, the realtor would not even show me the house. But then, the government had some money in that subdivision so they came in and said we could live there.

TR: Ok, and this is you and--

FT: Virgil and my, uh, let's see, it was two kids because the other kids were in college at that time.

TR: Ok. Do you remember what year this was?

FT: Yeah. I was sixty, sixty-eight.

TR: Ok. All right. I had another question about the housing issue, but that was, ok. Oh yeah, did you experience any in the neighborhood once you were allowed to move in?

FT: No. In fact, I saw my neighbor last night. She remembered me. She said, "You lived next door." No, no, it was a great experience. A great experience. At that time my son, Kenneth, was playing ball at Valley High School and it was, I had no problems.

TR: Ok, that's good. I know sometimes there was--

FT: Yeah, repercussions.

TR: Right.

FT: The only repercussion that I ever felt in Valley Station was a, when they integrated the schools. That, it was, all the hatred came out then.

TR: Yeah. We are going to talk a little bit about that stuff. So I guess that kind of pulls in there. So, I was going to ask you, you know, if you learned about politics or civil engagement at home, but we kind of talked about that. Did anybody else, other than Alberta Jones, influence you growing up? Was there any figure that you looked to for inspiration?

FT: Well, you know, growing up in an all African-American setting, which we were taught about and hammered into us that we were great people. That, and they brought out our history always before us like meeting Paul Roberson, you know. He came to sing. And being there at Central High School. The love of who we was 12:00always in front of us. And we could do better. And Dr. Joseph McMillan, do you know him?

TR: Uh [shaking my head]?

FT: You haven't heard of him, Joe. Well, he was in my class and he just died this past summer. [For more information: http://kchr.ky.gov/hof/halloffame2005.htm?&pageOrder=1&selectedPic=11] He was really instrumentative in the black family conference that he held every year. But he, anyway, that's what we lack with integration. The mingling, the combination of who we are as a people is left out and we're not saying, "Yes we 13:00can." You know, and I think Tiger Woods did us a favor. He came in, and Obama, you know, that they can see where we can, you know, do certain things. But I can understand the disparity in our young black youth.

TR: All right, great. You are already giving me so many great answers. Ok, other than, we've already talked about the discrimination from gender, um, the housing. Were there any other situations or issues that kind of pulled you into activism?

FT: What pulled me into activism? Ok, my daughter was sent to Saudi Arabia. My 14:00husband had did two tours in Vietnam. Ok. And my son, he came home and rather than for him not to go back, my son went. So I had three years of war. And it wasn't nice. It wasn't not nice at all. So when they sent my daughter to Saudi Arabia it brought war (Fran pounded on the table on the top of a family album with news paper clippings from her daughter's experiences in the Gulf War). And so that's when I became active.

TR: So, right around nineteen ninety-one?

FR: Uh, huh. [Long pause while I look at the album]

TR: Very interesting. How long was she there? Was she--

FT: A year.

TR: Ok. Did she see any combat or--FT: It must have been pretty horrible for her, for Pamela, because Pamela was the crew chief. And she, these were her planes that went out. You know, the stress of that, of them going out and coming back, you know. That was a lot.

TR: So, military, there is quite a bit of military history in, within the family.

FT: Yeah, you know, with Virgil, with Virgil coming into the family and him being military. That meant that Rodney served. At a time he was a Lieutenant. Graduated from Eastern [High School], you know. And then there was Larry that 16:00went to Vietnam. And Pamela that went to Saudi Arabia. And Kenneth was a graduate of the Naval Academy.

TR: So, you've kind of seen both sides of the war.

FT: Yes.

TR: The people there and then back at home.

FT: You're right.

TR: With the discrimination. So, that's quite a bit to pull you in. Well, I mean, the question I was asking about first, the first social issue that engaged you and the first action you took. Was there any response to the action you took in 1991? What were some of the actions you took to, kind of?

FT: Well, ok. Living in Valley Station. I was really, after I became the director of the [Kentucky] Alliance, ok. I was on t.v., newspaper. And so, 17:00Virgil says, "We better move out of Valley Station." So we moved to the west end. Ok, on 42nd Street. And then we decided to downsize because we were getting older and bought this little house and moved over here [still in the west end of Louisville, near 32nd Street]

TR: It's very nice. It's a very nice home. Very cozy. All right. Ok. So you moved here and well, we'll go ahead and talk about the Alliance.

FT: The Alliance?

TR: Yes.

FT: Ok!

TR: How did you first hear about the Kentucky Alliance?

FT: Ok. I called Robert, Bobby Burkes and because I said to Virgil because I 18:00wanted everybody to know that this is my little black girl that's in Saudi Arabia, you know. That she belongs to me. And he said, "What goods that gonna do?" I said, "I don't know what good that's going to do, but I just want to support her." So I came home and I called Bobby, and somebody had referred him to me. I knew Bobby real well and that he was involved in activism. So, with the Kentucky Alliance, I mean he was not in the Kentucky Alliance, but he knew about the Kentucky Alliance. So then I called the Kentucky Alliance and got involved with them. And when the war was over, ok, abruptly, you know Bush ended the war. At that time, they were looking for a director. So, I don't know what happened 19:00between Anne [Braden] and Mattie Jones, but they were looking for a director so I applied for--not even thinking about getting it. And I did.

TR: Ok, great. So, there were no really, initial hopes of going in and becoming director.

FT: NO! It was no initial hopes of going in and, cause that was just a forest to me. You know, who is Anne Braden? You know, who is Mattie Jones? Cause I says I'm not involved in the Coalition for the peace in the Middle East, that's what I was involved in. You know, and we carried a casket to the post office and all that kind of business. But, I didn't think about joining. But I, after that was over, I said what am I going to do? Ok. Since the Coalition for Peace in the 20:00Middle East has broken up. So I went to the N.A.A.C.P. [National Association of the Advancement of Colored Peoples], at that time Shelby Linear was president. And I attended a couple of meetings then and said, "Now this is not what I really wanted to do." And then, the Rainbow Coalition, which Dr. McMillan, was another organization. Anyway, the Alliance. So, at that time, I went to several meetings at the Alliance. And the structure there was pretty good and they had some goals and, you know, what they were working on. So I decided to join them.

TR: Ok. Did anything inspire you to sign up for, to possibly be the director, you know?

FT: No, they just announced, they just read, I mean, they said the was looking 21:00for a director, you know, and I said, "Well, I've had years of public speaking with an organization I was in." I said, "I can do this," you know. And so, I just, became the director. Yeah! And then the building caught a fire and burned down so I was directing an organization that didn't even have a place to meet! You know, and it was really a struggle to keep, to hold it together since it, we had no official place to meet. And all the being new. Ughh!

TR: It's a lot of work.

FT: It was a lot of work. A lot of work.

TR: Well, then, other than trying to keep it all together and trying to find a place to meet, what were some of the, um, what year did you start as director and what years were you really involved with the Alliance?

FT: Ninety-two to probably ninety-five.

TR: Ok.

FT: 92, 93, 94, 95, 96. Yeah, I was four and a half years about 97.

TR: What were some of the major activities?

FT: Well, you know, we had regular monthly meetings. Ok. And, or, being visible. You know, I think the Alliance had more visibility during the four years, the 23:00five years that I was there because I was always out there. You know, the director or, has to be present and during that time was the integration of the schools and helping the parents negotiate. And, you know, if a child got put out of school they could come to the Alliance and somebody would represent them. I did a lot of traveling, because the main office was in New York. That's what disbanded. The outside connection for the Alliance. We would always go to New York to our annual meeting. It was some important people that was involved.

TR: That's a long trip. I guess there was, I mean, did you have to pay for trips back and forth to New York?

FT: Yeah, but I didn't mind that. Ok, cause I got a salary and I spent most of my salary back in the organization. But just going, just going to the South, you know, when they would have the marches. We, Anne and I, was always there meeting people in the South. I can't even tell you all the people that I met. That I was in awed with.

TR: Anne had quite a few connections in the South.

FT: Anne had a lot of connections. Anne had a lot, a lot of connections. Yes.

TR: So, pretty much any time you went with her into the South--

FT: Yes, going with her in the South and going with her to New York, you know, Anne had a lot of connections.

TR: Let's see--speaking of Anne, we were speaking a little bit about the racial make-up of the Alliance. Can you describe the racial make-up? Because it's a cross-racial organization where, founded by Anne Braden and we have, you know, whites and blacks working together. Was that ever an issue? How was that as an organization?

FT: Well--whites and blacks working together [Fran threw a quick smile at me]. Ok. [Long pause] I decided that to take up the issue of Central High School that 26:00I needed blacks. That's what I needed. Because, some of the times I would bring an issue before the Alliance and I didn't feel like I got the support for that particular issue that I should have, you know. I think that you have to have people with the same concern that's gonna really fight for an issue. It has to touch you.

TR: Right. And so some times it may not have touched people who don't necessarily feel the discrimination.

FT: Right, right, right.

TR: And so, I guess, I mean that really plays right into it. So you just kind of 27:00focused when you were dealing with the Central case on--

FT: On blacks. Ok, I decided to get some black people that I knew that was solely interested in Central High School. Solely interested in Central High School.

TR: Did you have any support in the Alliance? Well, I know there was support--the Supreme Court issues and things of that nature. Were you kind of on your own?

FT: I was kind of on my own.

TR: And this is as the director, correct? [Fran nods her head] That has to be a pretty difficult task to try to get it all together at the same time. And since you were talking about the Central case, I did want to spend a little time on the school issues since you were so integral in that part. I was going to ask 28:00you about your ideas about the school system before the Central case and other cases. You were quoted in the paper speaking for the Alliance forum to discuss racial inequality in 1993. I know that was a long time ago, but can you describe your basic views about the school system at that time in the early 90s, and what were the weaknesses in the plan as it stood then.

FT: [Fran walked away from the recorder] I can't--I've got to get a mint. [She got a few mints from a bowl across the room] [Recorder paused] Ok, since I was not really involved with public schools, ok, my children all went to Catholic schools. And then from Catholic schools they went to Fort Knox. So, and then, Kenneth and Keith graduated from Valley High School. And Valley, at that time, 29:00was a good school. Was a VERY good school. So, I don't know what inadequacies was going on in. I do know that when I moved to Valley Station that I said that I would not, and my quote was in the paper, I would not bus my kids back in the city because that's why I moved out there. And I was involved in a, the open-housing discussion. And I said, "You know, I don't care who lives next door to me." You know, as long as they are keeping their property up.

TR: So basically, with not having the children there, you were just kind of walking into the situation. What, as the director I know you did quite a bit 30:00with the case, so before really no weaknesses. I guess busing, you know, would that be one of the issues?

FT: The busing, I fought against busing. I could not, I wasn't just sold on it, you know? And maybe, I just wasn't, I could not get the way they were doing it and I spoke at the board a lot of times about the inadequecies of putting our kids on the bus and riding them out to no mans land. For what? Send them back to the community. You know, I'm with the NAACP right now, you know right now, and 31:00they for integration. I'm not. I think the most traumatic time in my life, and I can't, I don't think I have the tape of it, when I followed Lymon T. Johnson at the Board [Jefferson County School Board meeting] and he was fighting for us to stay on the bus. And I had to speak after him and he was my teacher, one of my teachers, you know, and that was really traumatic. That he was saying I'm trying to keep them from the cotton fields, were fighting, because we were not for the integration as such as the way it was set up in Louisville.

TR: Ok. So that had to be kind of difficult and that is the division between the community. And then, well, we'll talk a little about the Central case since, dealing with Central High School and everything that you were involved with.

FT: Yes, it was Central High School. When I found out that the black kids could not go to Central and the white kids did not want to go to Central and there was based on, we had 800 students at Central. And they couldn't be active in any, participate in anything, because they didn't have the money and they were just at that school and struggling. And, they would not let the blacks come. And 33:00they, when I say "they," the board had set up to close Central. [Stephen] Daeschner wanted to close Central High School. And I said, "No." And so I called several people that I know and we had a meeting at my house and say they going to close Central High School and what can we do.

TR: And that is what I was going to say. I saw in the paper that you were in CEASE.

FT: Yes.

TR: And I think it is really important that we learn about that. Can you tell how it was formed? How the organization was formed?

FT: Yeah! It was just some people I called together. Carmen Weathers, Bob Douglas, and Rhonda Mathies. Deborah Stallworth. Several people that I just 34:00called. And we decided that we were going to file a lawsuit. And we called Mr. Porter, the Porter's Funeral home for counseling. He's the senior person that we called in for counseling. And we formed the organization CEASE and filed the lawsuit.

TR: All right. And so, was the basic motivations, goals of CEASE. Was there one?

FT: One goal. It was one goal. And it was, that was to stop them from closing Central High School. It's a rarity, because there is not very many all colored high schools left in the United States.

TR: As CEASE, what did the group think of the desegregation plan outside of 35:00Central? Did CEASE have an organized stance against the plan or was it more of what we have already talked about? Just the busing?

FT: Well, it was more, I guess, the plan. The plan discriminated against African-Americans because of the color of their skin.

TR: Right, with the 15%...

FT: Right, the 15-50%.

TR: Did you have any parents coming to the Alliance from Central? I know you mentioned something about that. Were there any Central parents involved?

FT: Yes. Central parents was involved.

TR: Did they play any active roles?

FT: Did they play an active role, yeah. There's plenty of write ups. How it was just destroying lives.

TR: One of the things we noticed is that the newspaper doesn't do a very good job of covering the origins of the Central case. It just kind of starts it once it, once it's in court. The Courier-Journal, in particular, doesn't really cover it so much until.

FT: Once it's in court. Yeah. I guess it was sort of a--we didn't realize it was going to be as big as it was. We really didn't. That it would just knock the student assignment plan out the window. Uh uh.

TR: Can you tell me how it started? I mean with the origins. Just the case itself. Were there other organizations involved?

FT: Uh uh. There wasn't another organizations involved. It was just CEASE. And 37:00we was meeting at my house. And the Alliance filed another suit along with our suit to say that that suit would include the, it would include the test scores. They just came along the side of us.

TR: So the initial goal was CEASE.

FT: Yes. The initial goal was CEASE, for CEASE, was to prevent them from closing Central High School.

TR: And then how did it progress from there?

FT: It progressed from there when we got in touch with an attorney, Teddy Gordon. Teddy came and sat and talked with us. And he said, "No, I will not take 38:00the case." You know. Uh uh. And he, and we, talked and talked and talked and he said, "I'll take it."

TR: What were his initial reservations? Why did he not want to take it?

FT: Well, I guess he could see the magnitude of what the, of what the results would be.

TR: How did you convince him?

FT: Carmen [Weathers]. We had a lot of talkers there. We had a lot of talkers. Carmen Weathers. I know, have you met Carmen?

TR: I have not, but her name is on our list.

FT: He's on your list?

TR: Yes, I said her instead of he--

FT: He would know better than me. You know, Carmen and Bob Douglas, they are all 39:00young people. You know, and I'm old. They can't understand why I'm--I really don't want to do anything else. I just, I don't mind attending a meeting every now and then, but I don't have the capacity to really get out there and fight anymore.

TR: It takes a lot. It takes a lot out of you. Mentally, physically, I mean its--

FT: No. It's just that I'm not really able.

TR: Ok. All right. Well, I know we talked a little bit about the Alliance in the Central case kind of jumping on the side.

FT: Yes. Just sort of jumping on the side. Jumping on.

TR: Did they have any problems with, I mean the Alliance, with the Central case? The idea of keeping it open. Were they on board with the ideas of it?

FT: I think that, I think that was probably one of the reasons that the Alliance 40:00and I parted.

TR: Ok. Because they couldn't--

FT: Because it never gelled afterwards.

TR: Do you think it was just because of the make-up of the Alliance or just their goal?

FT: It wasn't their goal. They were fighting for a police review board. That was the main issue. And they, see the gays and lesbians was a really, it started with the Alliance. Ok. And then that sort of branched off to a field of it's own.

TR: The Fairness campaign, yeah.

FT: Yeah, the Fairness campaigns for that and so the stronger people that were with the Rainbow Coalition and with the Alliance were with the gays and lesbians. Ok. Anne was strong. Bob Cunningham, you know. But, to me, that's the way it was.

TR: So they had, they were focused on--

FT: THEIR issues.

TR: Right, their issues.

FT: THEIR issues. And then I was focused on my issues and poor Anne.

TR: Trying to keep it all together.

FT: Yes.

TR: Ok, so that explains some things.

FT: What does it explain?

TR: Well, I was just saying it explains that there, you know, were so many different issues that it is hard to focus on.

FT: Yeah, it's overwhelming. There are so many different issues. That was very 42:00true. It was so many different issues that would come to the Alliance that were, there were the parents, you know. Supporting the parents and then there was Louis Coleman. You know Louis? Louis had, eww, I don't know how many issues. You could not fight with Louis. You could not fight with Louis because Louis would be over here one day, he would be over here another day, and over here the next day. So to keep up with Louis and all his issues. And [laughs], the Alliance and all their issues. And the Alliance had me fighting for getting--Bob Moses created a math program. I have his book up there. And he, and he brought it to Louisville. And he was an activist, and he was a good friend of Anne's. And he 43:00was trying to get his math program in Louisville. And Anne had me running all over every place to get Bob Moses's math program in Louisville. I had so many directors that worked under me to try to get this program in cause I knew, in the schools. And that was a forest. And a civilian review board. That was worked on. You know, just working on all these issues so to pinpoint and get an issue of our own, you know, of our own. This was our issue. And so I had to go outside and form CEASE in order to get this issue, which was my own issue.

TR: Right, and as you talked before it had to be something that hit you in the heart.

FT: Right, right.

TR: Wow. I mean, that has to be a lot to try to keep up with.

FT: Yes, and in the meantime I created the Unity dinner. Was created under me. I had the first Unity dinner and I had it at Jay's and it spun off from there getting different people to come and speak at the Unity dinner. And, uh, what else did I do for the Alliance? Uh, oversee the redecoration of the whole building. Getting it back to where it was usable. It was a rough 5 years, 4 ½, 5 years.

TR: Right, especially with the Central case going so big. I mean, making so many waves.

FT: Yeah. And plus the fact that I wasn't loved. We wasn't loved for doing that.

TR: By? The Alliance?

FT: By the community. You know, like people like Lymon Johnson. They didn't want us to do.

TR: Right, because they liked it how it was, right?

FT: They didn't--they liked, they liked integration. You take somebody that's for integration, you know, solely for integration. It's the core of everything. You know, they not going to fight for us filing this lawsuit.

TR: I was going to ask a little bit later about the community and how did the community--

FT: Rallied around us?

TR: Yeah, rallied around or fought against in some cases.

FT: You know, as far as I know, you know, there was no claim to fame that what 46:00we did was [long pause]--some people recognized that the fact that what we did was important, you know. But some. That Central is now going strong, you know.

TR: Well, what do you think about the outcome of the case? I mean the whole school assignment plan?

FT: It should have been. It was terrible. It was absolutely terrible. No. No. Uh uh. I don't believe in it.

TR: So, the outcome was a positive thing.

FT: A positive thing. A positive thing. Yeah. I guess we'll go down in history saying we saved Central High School.

TR: Ok. Well, that's a great statement.

FT: Yes, yes. And that, that's my home school. The other night my son took me to a ball game, you know, basketball game at Central. And I said it was good coming home. You know, it was good coming home. That Central is still here, you know.

TR: That's great. Just to kind of piggy-back on the whole Central case because some, a lot of people predicted that the Central case would spark other challenges to the desegregation plan. You had the McFarland case, the Meredith case. They were wanting to get their children into school and were not allowed.

FT: Yeah.

TR: Can you tell me anything about how those developed or what did you think about the issues in those cases?

FT: Well, I support the families, you know, that, nobody wants to be forced 48:00integrated. You know, nobody wants to force it. But sometimes you have to force it. I think we had to go through the bad part to get to the good part. Because of the way it was, we had inadequate schools. And that's what we wanted was EQUALITY. You know, equal. Everything equal. All you had to do was give us books and create better schools for us, you know. That's all you had to do. You didn't have to do all of this.

TR: Right. Ok, so the plan itself--

FT: The plan itself.

TR: Was just flawed. Once the schools were receiving the same funds and--

FT: Yeah.

TR: You know, money was spent equally.

FT: Money was spent equally. That's all we wanted.

TR: And so, the racial quota really--

FT: The racial quota and that was sabotage. That was sabotage.

TR: How do you mean?

FT: Divide and conquer. That's, to me, that's what it was. You divide us up and then you conquer us. And were, our race, is in a turmoil right now.

TR: Very good. I mean, that is a great explanation of--

FT: Of what?

TR: Of what, you know, the racial, the quota, you know maybe the--

FT: Yeah, the--You print that and me saying that [laughs] oh, wow!

TR: No, the printing does not, that's just, this is just for us [Fran laughs] This is not going to any newspaper outlet or anything. So, you're ok.

FT: But that's ok, that's ok--you know.

TR: It's about what the personal feelings were.

FT: What I see. What I see. You know, and you know that I am the mother of five. 50:00And I was, Pamela died, you know, but--

TR: Right, you know, when you see it.

FT: You know what I see now? I see my grandchildren have not done as well as my children.

TR: Why do you think that is? What? Is there a cause, a root cause?

FT: Integration.

TR: Now, where do the grandchildren go? Do they go around here or the schools here or are they out in other places?

FT: They are out in other places.

TR: But, is still--so, more of a neighborhood schools. Would you say you are in support of neighborhood schools? Or, I know it's kind of a difficult answer? It's a very difficult question.

FT: It is difficult. It's very difficult. And I don't like to voice my opinion on that. Because I'm not, I'm, what second or third generation? Yeah. Twenty, 51:00forty, sixty, I'm eighty, you know? And I can't say the way it was. And I don't like to look back and say, "Remember when?" You know? My day, you know? It's not my day. And I don't want to go back to my day. And what do we need now? The parents need to come out and say. Do they want neighborhood schools. You know, I'm not the one to say that for them. Am I being stupid?

TR: [Laughing] No! No, not in any way. No, not in any way. No, that makes perfect sense. To go back to the way it was, you know, I mean this is the big 52:00dilemma in the--

FT: Yeah.

TR: In the whole situation because once, you know, the assignment plan may be changes, but you know, will they take it back. But, I think you make a great point.

FT: What?

TR: Through the equality of the money and the schools.

FT: Yeah. I would not want my kids sent to a poor performing school. I would not want that. Regardless of where it was. I would fight to prevent that, you know, I would fight to prevent that. Now, poor performing, there shouldn't be any poor performing schools. They should all have equal assets. And it's not [phone rings] just because you [recorder paused for phone call] I've talked enough.

TR: Well, I've just got a couple more questions. All right, one thing we, when I say "we," Dr. Tracy K'Meyer. We worked on some of the same questions together. We noticed the Alliance went to the Supreme Court to demonstrate for the continued desegregation plan. And, what did you think about that? The outcome, the Alliance, you know, supporting, going to the Supreme Court. Any feelings on that, or? [long pause]

FT: Well, [long pause] you can see the split. You know, where I am over here and 54:00the Alliance is over here.

TR: Yeah, I knew, we've talked about that quite a bit. So, that was probably not the most wonderful thing.

FT: Yes. Yeah.

TR: And, as you have expressed before, it's probably what drove you from the Alliance.

FT: Yes, you know, I just felt like I, you know, my time. It was enjoyable. I would not deny the fact that I learned so much. That was an interesting part of my life. A real interesting part of my life.

TR: Ok. We'll move on then from that. We've already kind of talked about the 55:00school desegregation plan and how your ideas have changed over time. I mean, we've kind of hit on that a couple times. You know, you were about, we want the equality. Is, well, I guess we've kind of already talked about that enough. In terms of where you feel. One thing, how do you think the school desegregation plan as is stands now has affected the community?

FT: As it is now? It's a mess now and it's a mess then.

TR: Well, that was one of the questions that I had for you.

FT: It's just, uh uh. Now, I don't know how they gonna solve it. And since Pat Todd is no longer there. And the, who's this guy that they brought here to 56:00evaluate it?

TR: Oh, I saw that in the paper. I don't know the name, but--

FT: I can't think of it, of his name, but he's, I'm surprised that they brought him here, you know. I tell you something else that really educated me was the fact that the student, uh, what was I going to say--it's left me, but part of a committee that focused on the assignment and about all the people that, and you know there's Ben Richmond and the Alliance, and I represented the Alliance. And we had formed CEASE at that time and we all would meet and I, the last time I 57:00spoke at the Board I asked them to form this committee back again where we would all have input when we got to look at just what the whole student assignment was about.

TR: Do you know when was that, the last time you spoke at the Board?

FT: The last time I spoke at the Board?

TR: Asking for that?

FT: Asking for that? That was two years ago.

TR: Ok, so not too long ago.

FT: I was out there and I spoke.

TR: And what was their response?

FT: [Dr. Sheldon] Berman said no. Uh huh. That was when he was there. Daeschner and I fought. We really fought. We really fought. [Laughing] I enjoyed my fights with him.

TR: Right. Now, you know he's across the [Ohio] river now.

FT: Yes, he across the river now. Uh huh.

TR: Yeah, so that was an interesting move on that part. Well, is, so, is any 58:00idea--we talked about neighborhood schools being a possible solution. Busing, I know the committee voted recently. Most people went with busing. Said busing would be ok.

FT: Well, that's who they talk to. That's who they surveyed. You know, they said busing. And [Gary] Orfield, that's his name. Gary Orfield said. Gary Orfield was the same person that they brought in, the school board brought in, when we filed the lawsuit. He's for integration. You know, and that's, they don't call it integration now. They call it, what do they call it? [Neither narrator or 59:00interviewer can come up with the right term] Right, they use a different term.

TR: Right, so I cannot come up, it's beyond me right now. Any other, I mean other than the plan as it is now, any other comments that you have about the school desegregation situation? I know you're very pleased with Central still being open and that was. What would you say, probably, was your biggest achievement either with the Alliance or without? Either way, I know technically CEASE was outside of the Alliance?

FT: What was my greatest? Well, the Unity dinner. That was my, that was a great 60:00achievement and, what else, what else? I can't say.

TR: Ok. And Central High School, that had to be a big one for the alma mater, you know, being your school.

FT: Yeah.

TR: But, you've done some great things. Some excellent things.

FT: What?

TR: Over the time. You know, the Unity dinner and all those things. So, is there anything else that you'd like to share that you haven't really had the chance to yet. Or any other thoughts? I know it's hard to just put you on the spot of all the years.

FT: No, I, ok. No.

[Fran wanted to show me the articles in her family album. She was clearly tired 61:00and needed to rest.]