Interview with Mike Hill and Phillip Bills, July 30, 2012

Amber Duke: My name is Amber Duke and I'm interviewing Mr .Phil Bills and Mr. Michael Hill with Metro Planning Design Services. Today is Monday, July 30, 2012 and we are in their offices on 444 S. 5th street. Thank you both for your time today. For the recording can you say and spell your name?

Phillip Bills: Phillip Bills P-H-I-L-L-I-P B-I-L-L-S

Michael Hill: Mike Hill M-I-K-E H-I-L-L

PB: Great. Can you both just very briefly describe your educational and professional background and how you ended up here?

PB: This is Phil; I have Bachelors in Geography and Geology from EKU. I began my 1:00planning career at the Lou -- Jeff County planning commission in 1971. I was here from '71-'86. Then I went to the private consultant side, and I've worked for Sabak, Wilson & Lingo for ten years and BTM Engineering for almost 16 years. Other planning related opportunities I've had; I'm a member of the Harrison IN planning commission for 4 years in the 1990s and served on their board of zoning adjustment. That's how I got here, I came back and was offered the position of director for design services beginning in November of 2011.

MH: I have a BS from WKU in Geography and City & Regional planning. I started my planning career here, similar to Phil. In 2000-2001, then I went to Oldham County and was a planner there for 4 years and I went to BTM Engineering after that for about 4 years and I've been with Louisville Metro for almost 3 years.

AD: I'm from New Albany so it's interesting to hear your Southern Indiana connections. Can you each take a couple of minutes to describe your specific functions in the department? Obviously, you're the director, but if you don't mind saying some of the things that you're in charge of?

PH: I'm the director of Planning and Design Services. I have a staff of about 36, I think it is. We are responsible for zoning and land development, board of 3:00zoning adjustment which deals with variances and waivers, sub-division activates city and county. Our office, the planning commission is a joint agency that works with the entire county. We have about 3 or 4 different versions of the land development code in KY. The cities of the 1st- 4th class have zoning authority and we have several 2nd, 3rd, 4th, class cities that have zoning authority such as ST. Matthews, Shively, Middletown, Jeffersontown, as well as Metro itself. So I work with all of the legislative bodies that have zoning 4:00authority. We have a single board of zoning adjustment that serves the entire county. I work with that group. I'm also by virtue of my position on the landmarks commission looking at historic properties and things like that. And I'm on the DDRO, which is the Downtown Development Review Overlay committee, things like that. So it's quite a few things I'm involved in or working with. Currently we're going through an update of the land development code, which Mike's in charge of.

AD: Do you want to talk about that, Mike?

MH: Sure, this is Mike again. I'm planning coordinator here on staff. Previously 5:00before I began focusing on land development code I was on zoning team reviewing zoning proposals and subdivision proposals. Uh, but within the past year, my role has changed focus has been on all land development code related issues. At the same time we began taking an in depth look at the land development code and created a land development code committee. And then various subcommittees that are going to be looking at several sections of land development code in detail and trying to come up with ways and ideas to improve it, make it better- a better document- for every user. So that's pretty much my main focus at this point: is coordinating effort of dozens and dozens of people in the community that are participating and reviewing the code.

AD: Is there a timeline?

MH: There really isn't. We started last September that we call Round I or Phase 6:00I and that was one committee of 15-20 people and they identified approximately 100 minor technical changes to the land development code. Which those are working their way through metro council review and other small cities for adoption as well. And then, most of the items that were brought up at that time, probably three quarters of the items that were brought up, we held over for round two which we began a couple of months ago which is a more in-depth, involved look at some of the more significant topics. But there really isn't a timeline -- deadline, it's pretty open ended at this point.

AD: Is there a timeline that it has to be looked at? Say, like every 10 years it needs to be updated, or--

MH: No, our comprehensive plan is dictated to be reviewed or amended every 5 years by KRS, or a state planning statutes. But as far as our land development 7:00code, no. There's nothing we are held to and we try periodically to go through it and update it as needed. It was adopted in '03 and another in '04 and another in '06. There have been a couple dozen minor amendments throughout the code since '06, but it's been several years since we've had an in depth look at the code.

AD: Okay. Well one of the things we are doing with this study- we are looking at the 2010 analysis of impediments to fair housing that MHC prepared for the city and sort of using that as the base to look at the recommendations in that report. And then some of those things are being acted on. I know that there is a fair housing element to the land development code and Cathy and Curtis, I 8:00believe, are part of the committee that's helping with that. In the 2010 impediments analysis and then also in 2007 that was done, but that report wasn't widely circulated, zoning was cited as one of the major impediments to fair housing here in the city. So I wanted to hear your take on that- what your feelings are about that.

PB: Even in my first term here in the planning commission, I never saw anything from a zoning district regulations point of view that I think anybody considered to be an impediment to fair housing. Not something that "oh we're going to zone this R4 to keep fair housing out." There is never anything like that. The bulk 9:00of the county, which is the orange and yellow on this map here, on the wall, was zoned R4 as a "holding zone." At the time, zoning was put together in the city and county. You know, they didn't know how the county was going to develop. They didn't know where the bulk of the development was going to occur. So they used this R4 zoning or its equivalent- there were some, uh, it was originally done- there were some different classifications. They used that as kind of a holding zone to hold the land until you can see how development was going to occur and as development would occur there would be re-zonings for different classifications -- other residential classifications: single family, 10:00multi-family, office, commercial, industrial, and so on. The City and County planning commission used to be separate, well, in all the small cities. Then in 1966 they merged into a single unit and at that point we came up with just the single set of zoning classifications: R4, R5, R6, so on. But again I never saw any indication that R4 was put in place for the purpose of stopping fair housing. That was never an issue in those days when I was here in my initial term [laughs]. It's certainly fair housing is becoming more -- a bigger topic in 11:00recent years, and you know, understandably so. But it's just, uh, you know there was always opportunities for multi-zoning classifications. I think we see what we did, or what has occurred with the R4 and everything. A lot of that I see as having occurred following WWII when everybody, all these soldiers were coming back and getting married and they needed housing and they wanted larger lots, you know, for families. So they created a whole range of zoning classifications and as development occurred out in the suburbs you had larger lots and all that. It was what was desired by the people buying houses at that time. There wasn't a 12:00large demand for lower cost housing in those days, like there is today. I think there's been a great deal of change in society since the '60s. There is a lot more demand for things like that.

AD: When you talk about R4 as a holding zone, do you mean as a generic category? Or, like, a general--?

PB: Yeah, it's Kentucky. Most of the counties in Kentucky are more rural and a lot of the counties that have zoning use agricultural zoning. Well Jefferson County is no longer an agriculture community any longer, and so looking at it from a community that's residential, business there -- no agriculture -- they 13:00kind of picked something kind of in the middle on the residential side. R4 for example, has a minimum lot size of 9000 square feet. It's something to put in place like agriculture like the other counties have.

AD: Is there anything you want to say about this?

MH: I think Phil gives a good historical background of where the R4 came from.

AD: Um, I know that you were saying that, so R4, which I know which has been identified as this problematic category; that it can be rezoned to other classifications.

PB: Well sure; and it is routinely.

AD: I guess my question is-- it does happen routinely?

PB: Oh yeah.

AD: And what is that process like? Is that an easy enough process? I've picked up your pamphlet on re-zoning, so maybe I should refer to that. [laughs]

PB: The uses -- it depends on uses, locations, so on. One thing that was done for a long time was you would have - well actually let me go back here a little bit. When zoning was originally developed, zoning began in Euclid, Ohio, which is up around Cleveland. And you'll periodically you'll hear a reference to Euclidian zoning; it was kind of a reverse pyramid, is what they called it. On the bottom was residential zoning, which allowed only residential uses, then you 15:00had commercial zoning, which allowed residential and commercial uses, then you had industrial zones which allowed residential, commercial and industrial. Sometime in the, I think the late '60s, in Jefferson County area; they took the industrial zone and just chopped out everything except industrial/business uses. So it kinda went (bink, bink) you know, almost like a reverse pyramid. A lot of the industrial areas still show up as solidly industrial. What we're seeing now is because these industrial areas have become employment centers that there's a demand for single, multi-family housing close-by. We are seeing a lot of 16:00apartment developments close by these business centers for example: the Bluegrass Industrial Park area, and the -- what's the other- ?

MH: Jeffersontown-

PB: Well, Jeffersontown and-

MH: Oh-

MH: Eastpointe

PB: There is a lot of industrial between Hurstbourne and Blakenbaker Parkway, and well, not just industrial, business. There are apartment communities popping up around there. All the way around, there is some south of I-64 and some north of I-64. And so there's been a greater demand for multi-family housing as well as single family. So you're seeing a lot of growth there. Bluegrass Industrial park area and Jeffersontown has somewhat in the area of 38-40,000 employees work 17:00in that area. So there is a demand for housing close by. You are seeing growth there. Commerce Crossings down at Preston Highway and Snyder Freeway, you are seeing the same thing. You've got, it's not as big, but it's a pretty well built out Business Park and there are some apartment communities as well as single family communities that are popping up around there. Right across the street from Commerce Crossing you've got Lowes and a retail area and the Cinema Complex there, and back- that's called Preston Crossings. Back in behind there is an apartment and condominium community as part of Preston Crossings. So it was a mixed-use development. And so we are seeing a lot of demand for things like that.

AD: I want to talk about, that's interesting about Euclid, OH. I didn't know that about it.

PB: Whenever you hear the term "Euclidian zoning" that's where it came from-

AD: That's where it comes from-

AD: Well I know that a lot of Nashville and Denver and Miami have recently, I don't know how recently, but they've gotten rid of conventional zoning and switched to form based codes. And from what I understand Louisville currently has formed districts.

PB: We have two layers.

AD: Ok, is there support for moving entirely to form based codes here in Louisville?

PB: I don't think so yet.

MH: I- Yeah, I-

PB: We have two layers; we have the standard district and form districts. And what impact that has is depending on the form district determines how your site is designed. If you are in a suburban form district you have one set of design standards, let's say for a C1 district. If you are in a traditional formed 19:00district you have a totally different set of design standards.

AD: Okay.

PB: Uh, to kind of, you know. Your traditional areas would be Bardstown Roads, your Frankfort Avenues, your Butchertowns, Portlands, Portland areas, all those. Where you have older communities with smaller lots, the traditional commercial areas where the buildings are up on the street. St. Matthews, Shively, where the buildings are up on the street so any development that occurs in those traditional formed districts is supposed to meet that same design standard, but close to the street, and more intense. They have smaller yard requirements in a lot of cases. Some of them have reduced parking requirements too, don't they?

MH: Yes, traditional form districts have less parking requirements.

PB: Because you are on a transit line. And the suburban formed districts people have to drive further to get here; you have to go with standard parking requirement. So, kinda like that-There's the difference. There had been some articles in Planning Magazine, which is the American Planning Association is their organization, the Professional Organization of Planners across the country. There was an article in, I think within the last year which suggested formed districts aren't appropriate for broad counties. Like Jefferson country where you have traditional areas, let's just say with in Watterson Expressway and then you have more suburban areas outside. They suggested using the form 21:00districts in the city and used traditional zoning outside. I don't know, I'm probably more supportive of that than the full double layer because it can be a little confusing. I don't know what Mike has to say.

MH: Yeah, I- I- When the idea of introducing form districts to Louisville came about in the late 90's when they were working on a new comprehensive plan, I'm told the original proposal was just form districts to do away with the conventional zoning. When the discussions began, it became apparent the community wasn't ready to do away with their traditional zoning system. So it was a compromise to keep portions of both of the existing t traditional zoning and then add the new form districts. Which is how we came to have the system we 22:00have today which is double layers of regulation.

PB: It can be confusing.

AD: And when you say the community didn't support it, can you say more about that?

MH: I wasn't here at the time, but I've been told enough by others who were here, when they were creating Cornerstone 2020 there was a lot of meetings and citizens input and so they received feedback from all sectors of the community and it appears at that time, there just wasn't - Louisville wasn't ready to make that jump to completely change their system so they -- ended up with -- a little bit of both.

PB: Form district was very new at that time. And I understand we were one of the first communities to go for the county wide form district. I think one of the first ones that had the, I don't know what to call it [laughs]-

MH: Hybrid.

PB: The hybrid zoning regulation.

MH: I'm not sure even 12 years later the community is ready yet either to make a change. That's yet to be determined though, I guess.

AD: Okay. So do you sort of, watch these trends in other cities, are you all watching Nashville, Denver, Cincinnati, there places to see what --

MH: Yeah, I might say we keep an eye on it. Particularly I have since I have been working on the land development code and researching other communities to kind of get a feel for what's going on elsewhere.

AD: Okay.

PB: I hadn't a great deal but, you know, I just came at the end of November. And we're going to be making some trips out to look at some different opportunities and -- let's see in September there's the Ohio, Kentucky, Indiana chapters of 24:00the EPA of having their OKI conference which they have every other year up in Columbus and I'm sure there's gonna be some topics on that. I'm going up to that. So--

AD: Well, I wanted to talk about Cornerstone 2020 a little bit and just ask specifically how Cornerstone 2020 addressed fair housing.

PB: Wow-- um. I'm, I don't know every [laughs] page and chapter of cornerstone 2020 --

AD: Right.

PB: - and I'm not sure there's a specific reference to fair housing. I was involved in the development in the comp plan that was before that which the big 25:00green thing is laying on top there. That was in effect from '76 to this plan. I don't think there's a specific -- I'm not sure there's a specific reference to fair housing [Flipping pages, long pause].

MH: I'm trying to think, there might be a couple of references in the Goals and Objectives that talk about promoting inclusive housing. But I don't really think it goes into great detail --

PB: Well, in K2.1: "Ensure that the planning and regulatory process does not 26:00create barriers to the production of appropriate housing. Encourage production of appropriate housing through creative development, incentives, and partnerships with service providers." That's probably, maybe, as close as it comes. "Create public sector mechanizations that will encourage the production and rehabilitation of appropriate housing." [Pause, looking through pages] Um-- Oh, let's see here-- [Flipping pages]

AD: Is this entire document on your website?

MH: Yes.

PB: Yes. Mmhmm.

PB: This was adopted in June 2000, so 12 years ago. Let's see here-- [Flipping 27:00pages] Hm-- Quality of Life might, Quality of Life might address that. It looks like it's more--

MH: Mmhmm. Yeah I know-

PB: Public Art, Community Facilities, Crime Prevention--

MH: I know there's not a separate section titled Affordable Housing --

PB: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

MH: Or anything like that I think there are couple of references -- talks about providing a variety of housing types.

PB: Mmhmm.

MH: And uh, things along those lines.

PB: Nothing specific.

AD: Well I know, Michael, if you want talk a little bit more in detail, I just know in the review of the land development code, there are several different committees looking at a different things and I know there is a fair housing committee, so if you want to say a little bit about that.

MH: Right. Yes, the land development committee created nine sub-committees. One of those is the Fair and Affordable Housing sub-committee, which I think they've met twice already. Their goal is to discuss any existing language and regulations in the land development code that talks about fair and affordable housing issues and then to potentially come up with new ideas that could be introduced to the code that would promote and encourage and address the idea and issues surrounding fair and affordable housing.

The main section we have currently in the code that touches on that group is reviewing, is called the Alternative Development Incentives Section. Um, and it 29:00basically provides an optional regulation a property owner, developer, can choose to utilize, we call it ADI for short, the ADI section. They get a certain amount of points depending on what they put in their development. It's intended to provide open space and preserve certain areas and trade-off the developer will get reduced lot sizes --uh, let's see-- Things of that nature. And as an incentive to try to include some housing diversity to preserve culture resources and to provide open space.

Um, but, it's a regulation we've had for about 10 years-

AD: Mmhmm.

MH: Um, it's been used very seldom. I'm told that when it was originally drafted, I think in 2003, text amendment goes through the Planning Commission for a public hearing and then on to Metro Council and the other legislative bodies. I'm told that when this regulation got to Metro Council it was changed quite dramatically. And, um, several of the sections, some of the original authors have told me several of the items that they really pushed for were taken out at the Metro Council level. So in the 9-10 years since it's been adopted there have only been about 15 proposals in the community, developments in the community that have utilized these ADI incentives. So, that sub-committee is 31:00first going through this section by section to seeing what they can do to make it better, see what they can do to provide better incentives and try to motivate people to use it more often than they have. Right now it's only single family zones, it's only allowed in the R4 & R5 zones. So they're talking about adding a multi-family phase component to it. And they really just began looking at this so our next meeting should get into a lot more discussion on some ideas on how to make it better.

AD: And then ultimately if they suggest changes and those are drafted it in, it would still be subject to changes at the Metro Council?

MH: Right. Once it gets out of the Fair and Affordable Housing sub-committee, the main land development code committee that's over-seeing all the nine subcommittees will review it. And they'll have to pass it forward and then it goes to the planning commission then on to Metro Council, right.

AD: Okay.

MH: So if the legislative body does have the opportunity to amend anything that comes before them as they feel necessary.

PB: There is a definition of affordable housing in 2020: "Housing affordable to persons of low to moderate income as defined by the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development." So there's references in here someplace, but, uh, I'm not --

AD: There wasn't a big particular section, just this one here?

PB: No I don't see anything here in the Plan Elements or the Goals and Objectives that, not a specific paragraph. You know, People, Jobs, and Housing- I've looked there, and there wasn't anything , you know, just what I read you-

AD: Mmhmm.

PB: -at K2.1 and K2.2. But I don't see anything here that jumps out.

AD: Okay. Well I think I will definitely take a look at that document on your website. Um, we talked about zoning and I know that you talked about as far as you know, at least in your time, your earlier time here [PB laughs] and of course your time here now. You weren't aware of any intent in any of these laws to discriminate against these people to segregate the community. But in your opinion, do you think there are either laws or practices, rules or regulations that are part of the government that you believe are impediments to fair housing?

PB: I don't think so. Now, you know, I was here during the time where we had desegregation in schools-

AD: Mmhmm.

PB: -and of course that was a rather turbulent time in the city.

AD: Yes.

PB: I don't recall anything ever being in writing dealing with that. Now, how people in the community and builders and developers, how they work -- there may have been things that they did or didn't do that caused that. I live in a neighborhood that's mixed. I mean, you know, we have- I live in Hurstbourne and we have, you know, a lot of different cultural backgrounds in our neighborhood, people walking up and down the street all the time. Indians, African Americans -- just a wide range of folks that live in the neighborhood. We also have Section 8 housing in Hurstbourne. And I don't know if many people know that. But 35:00Hurstbourne, its got single family, its got multi-family, its got office, its got commercial. You know, just a wide range of uses within the community and people that live in the community. I never saw or heard, "Ah, we can't let them in here" you know, because they are the wrong color, or whatever. I never heard or saw anything like that in my first 14 years here. And it was in that time of change.

AD: Right.

PB: There was nothing specific. You know, so.

AD: Obviously Michael you weren't here-

MH: No.

PB: No, he's too young.

AD: But, do you have any opinion on that, if there are government laws or acts or rules or regulations that you see as impediments to fair housing?

PB: I know someone we can ask.

MH: Who?

PB: Mama Lu.

MH: Oh.

AD: Mama Lu? [MH and AD laugh]

PB: Lula Howard worked here. She started here before I did -- worked, uh, she was a technician for several years and I got to work with her. We would rotate around in the different departments and when I did my year of Foreign Service in the Advanced Planning section I got to work with Lula. Lula is an African American lady, who, uh when I came back up to the zoning group and my zoning boss left, and I got moved into her position, they said who do you want to take your place and I said Lu- Lula. She and I are like this today. We've been buds 37:00for a long time, right?

MH: Mmhmm.

PB: Mike knows. And, she would be a good person to talk to, to find out about more of what was going on in the '60s and '70s because she came to work here, I want to say in the late '60s, I think- Mid to late '60s. She was here 4 or 5 years before I was. And uh, wonderful lady, I love her dearly. And I'm- [laughs] We're just great together.

AD: Well that was one of my final questions if there was anyone else you would suggest that I should talk to-

PB: Talk- Talk to Lula.

AD: So, if you don't mind sharing her contact information a little later.

PB: I will give you her contact information. Not only did she work here, but when she retired she came to work with me at Sabak, Wilson, and we worked together. Ultimately she got appointed to the Planning Commission and she was on the Planning Commission for --

MH: A long time.

PB: A long time.

MH: I guess, as long as I went up to serve, I suppose.

PB: At least two terms as chairman of the Planning Commission. So Lula has seen it from all sides, not only in her professional life, but her personal life.

AD: Right.

PB: And yeah, I would highly recommend that you talk to Lula.

AD: Okay, great. I'll get her contact information when we finish up.

PB: Because she, she'll know what was going on back then, so.

AD: Okay. Of course you sort of were talking about this when you were talking about the demographics in the Hurstbourne neighborhood , but obviously for a 39:00long time in Louisville these issues of discrimination have been a black-white issue but now of course, we, there are so many, we'll just say international.

PB: Hispanic, Asian.

AD: Right. People from all over the world are becoming a part of this community. So, do you have a sense, which I think, from your last answer I'll probably know the answer to this. Do you have a sense that housing discrimination in Louisville is getting better or worse?

PB: I-

AD: -Unchanged?

PB: I think it's getting better, I think there's more opportunities. I think people are less -- um, what do I want to say, less, disturbed is not a good word. I think people-- see segregation as a smaller topic. Now, that you know, certainly not throughout the community, but in the community as a whole I think 40:00there's fewer issues, I think. You know, cause there's just, you know, our communities are just -- there's so many, as you said, so many different, more different groups. Our Vietnamese community here is huge.

I've done some work in my private life sector. I did some work with the Vietnamese community which I enjoyed doing. I was in Vietnam when I was in the military and there's some really good people out there and I've helped them out in several instances. The area around, out around Iroquois Manor Shopping Center is largely Vietnamese. Yes, it's kind of a consolidated community and that may 41:00not be a good term either, but that's just where a lot of folks live. They are reaching out and living in other communities too, but, uh. You know it's just, uh-- I think it's less of an issue today than it was a long time ago. It's not cured and perfect by any stretch of the imagination-

AD: Mmhmm.

PB: -but it's improving. It's getting to be better.

AD: Anything you want to say about that?

MH: I honestly don't have the historical [clears throat] background to go too far back.

AD: [laughs]

MH: I've only lived -

PB: He's calling me old. [laughs]

MH: No-

AD: [laughs]

MH: -Not directly anyway. [Laughs].

PB: [laughs] Got that on the tape?

MH: Yeah, yeah. I've lived in Louisville for 13 years so, yeah, I don't have too much of a time frame to go back comparing today versus then to.

AD: Ok, I wanted to talk about transportation a little bit, because of course, especially as people move - or out and living in communities we've had a lot of conversation about the Hope VI projects in towns and folks who are you know used to living in an area downtown in the case of Shepherds Square and being able to walk and so many services that were close to them being moved out, scattered site. Maybe they were moved with groups of other people, but in other areas of the communities a lot of those folks didn't have access to vehicles. Now they're in parts of the county that have varying access to public transportation, I mean I think it all has access, but whether or not you have to get on a bus and it takes you 3 hours to get where you want to go, than being able to walk somewhere and hop on a bus and it takes you half an hour to get to where you want to go. I 43:00don't know if this is something that is in the land development code or in the general planning process, but what are some things being done to ensure multi-family housing has, there's access for pedestrians. There's access to transit within the community and the access to transit for surrounding communities.

PB: One thing that has changed in the last few years when development occurs now, sidewalks are required. Unless there is a good reason for them not to be whether it's topographic or if, um-- I had a case a few years back, again my private sector time- where the code called for sidewalls, but the closest sidewalk to the site I was doing was about 7 miles away.

AD: [laughs]

PB: Well that's not appropriate so they granted a waiver in that case, but 44:00there's a lot of sidewalk construction occurring as well as bikeways and so on, along the major arterial roadways in the county. But even if you were to come in and build an apartment development you'd have to put sidewalks along the street the property front is on but we also require connectivity and internal movements. Working on a project right now that is going to be in the paper a lot. It's an apartment project next to a shopping center and there are sidewalks that are being constructed from the apartment development, connecting to the sidewalks in the shopping center. It's also on a transit route. Here's a map right here that shows properties. The red dots are C- properties with C1 zoning 45:00classifications and the colored lines here are transit routes.

AD: Oh ok

PB: I'm not sure what those numbers are, but again it goes across into Southern Indiana out to Oldham County down to Bullitt County. You can see where the C1 districts are. And the C1 district allows single family, multi-family, office, commercial. And there are some, there was a proposal recently put forth by a member of Metro Council to change the residential density permitted in the C1 district from initially the proposal was to reduce it from the 34 units per acre to 4 units per acre, which is R4. Well actually less than R4, R4 is 4.8. And 46:00that, the Planning Commission said" No, don't do that." Ultimately the proposal was amended to be 12 units per acre, but that's still in committee at the Metro Council. It's not, have any final action. If they were to do that -- if you're familiar with any of the areas along Bardstown Road, Frankfort Ave where there's buildings that have office and business on the ground floor, and condos on the upper floor. You'd never see another one of those built in a C1 district because it wouldn't be allowed. We're just saying that's an inappropriate thing to do, because it would not. You know, I mean, that kind of development and again if 47:00you have a large commercial tract and you see some retail, grocery and that kind of stuff, there's still some vacant commercial that still a perfect place for multi-family.

AD: That's pending-

PB: Mmhmm.

AD: I guess we'll stay tuned and see what happens with that.

PB: It's been before Metro Council for --

MH: A long time, several months.

PB: Uh, yeah, several months now. And the zoning committee just got parked and left. Because nobody wanted to bring it out. [Laughs] But again this shows you the type of-

AD: Mmhmm!

PB: -development that you wouldn't see again, because that wouldn't be permitted.

AD: Is that at Cardinal Towne?

PB: No this is, these are- Frankfort Ave.

AD: Oh! For a second, it looked like Cardinal Towne.

PB: Yeah, well, you know. Same thing in Cardinal Towne. I think some of that is in commercial, I believe. I've been doing some work with folks at U of L on some different things out there, but if Cardinal Towne is in a C1 district that wouldn't happen. If this proposal goes through. Because that's all, Cardinal Towne is private; it's not part of the university. So, you know, they would have to conform to the zoning regulations. If it was U of L, they are exempt. It's like the VA hospital. It's exempt from zoning. So anyways.

MH: A couple of code related items related to transportation: We do have a 10% TARC reduction credit for parking. If you're proposal is within a certain distance from a TARC route then you can have a lesser required number of onsite 49:00parking spaces for your proposed development. That's kind of looked at as an incentive. We also, within the alternative development incentive section: one of the incentives offered in there is points being given to developments within a mile of transit routes. I think it's a major transit corridor. So that's one of the ways in that type of development you can obtain points in the system.

AD: Mmhmm.

MH: We've also talked about ways to make the code better and we've been looking for new ideas or new ways to add or offer incentives for certain desirable types of development. One of those is developments close to transit centers or transit corridors. That's something we are looking at and thinking about. So maybe 50:00future opportunities built into the code that will further promote and encourage development around transit areas.

AD: Mmhmm. Okay. Well, is there anything that you want to mention that you haven't had a chance to mention?

PB: Nothing I can think of right off the top of my head., but--

MH: I don't know-- it seems like we could go on for days if we get on a particular topic.

AD: [laughs]

PB: [laughs]

MH: With our 1000 page development code especially.

PB: You've seen our zoning regulations?

AD: No, I don't think I have. Is that the binder that's a large as this office?

PB: This one? See, the binder on that shelf that says "1979 Regs"?

MH: Oh.

PB: And the one immediately to the left is the one that was here when I started. 51:00One is pre-'79 and one is '75. And then we bumped up to the next one on the right which is a little bit thicker.

AD: [laughs]

PB: Then we've got-

AD: Yep, the big one.

PB: - the one you have to have a hand cart for.

AD: [laughs]

MH: Yeah, so we're trying to simplify that as best as we can, while we're trying to improve it.

PB: That Phase I, Round 1 that Mike was talking about. We went in looking for conflicts-

AD: Mmhmm.

PB: -stuff like that and they did find a lot of stuff.

AD: Oh, I bet when you've got something that large I'm sure that-

MH: There's things all over in different sections that talk about the same issue. So you know, that we've missed, that we're trying to eliminate duplications or improve cross referencing throughout the document just to make it easier to use.

AD: That seems like a very hard Phase I. That seems like an intense process.

MH: Well it was-- and the LDC Committee met for about 4 months trying to 52:00identify those Round 1 items, that they formed a consensus like it was a no- brainer that "this should be changed to this to make it better." So, Metro Council is currently going through those one by one, trying to get them to a comfort level of, getting ready to improve them. Um yeah, it was in depth. And it's just the beginning getting to our Phase II and as I said, it's open-ended. It could take several months to get through it.

AD: I hope for your sake it's not a painful process, hopefully it'll -

MH: I'm sure there will be some pain involved but that's just how it is.

[All laughs]

PB: [inaudible] It will keep you gainfully employed so--

AD: This is true.

MH: I should be around for a long time if that's the case.

AD: Job security. Well thank you both for your time, I really appreciate it.

[END OF INTERVIEW]