Interview with Judith Jennings, February 26, 2014

JW: Thank you. So today is February 26, 2014, I'm Jessie Whitish here with Judi Jennings. We're gonna talk about UofL Women's Center, her connection to Lucy Freibert and kind of a connection between Lucy and the Women's Center and UofL. 1:00So I guess Judi if you just want to talk about the Women's Center and really sort of the backstory on how did that come about at UofL and what brought that into fruition.

JJ: Well um in the um well I got to first know about the great feminists at UofL in the early 1980s. I was working for the KY Humanities Council which gives grants to scholars to do public discussions and there was quite a good community in Louisville of feminists scholars lead by Mary Hawkesworth. I'm sure that name has come up. And Lucy and Nancy Theriot was I believe part of that at the time. And I believe Maryann Stengner was there. So they would have book discussion groups or do public programs about women's history and feminism and I just thought they were so cool. So I would come up here and see their programs. 2:00I don't really remember the first time I met Lucy--I don't re--I know that she was always a presence--What year, do you know what year she came, she starting teaching at UofL?

JW: It was '72--'74, '71, '72 something like that.

JJ: She was there and she was like um sort of the godmother--you know-- of the feminists on campus and they talked about her but I think as far as interacting with her in these humanities programs I'm not so sure that was part of that meeting. After I worked at the Humanities Council I actually went to Appalshop which is a media arts and education center in eastern Kentucky. And I was a fundraiser. I decided I didn't want to be part--I wanted to take a break of academics--and I was forty. So I was down in eastern Kentucky which was 1987-1991. While I was down there they were cookin up the Women's Center. Lucy 3:00was always--I think people called her this--the consciousness--the voice of conscience of UofL and always a voice for truth and I was thinking about preparing for this interview how she could speak her truth and her justice without alienating people and they actually loved her more. I think that's something that feminists don't always--aren't always able to do. 

JW: Yeah.

JJ: Myself, I'll speak for myself, myself as a feminist. And I think it is something to think about cause she never compromised her principles. But she could say them in a loving way. Maybe that's with the faith. She could say them in a loving way and so, she was greatly respected through the campus, throughout the campus. And then Mary Hawkesworth was more strategic. She was in political 4:00science. I would say that building consensus and making people feel good was not her goal. (laughter) That she was very savvy and structural and about political structure. And then there was a third woman, Cissy Musselman, who had been a student of Mary's. Came back to school late and was in Mary's class, Mary Hawkesworth's class and actually traveled to England, on a class trip to England which those kind of trips can really be like transforming even more than sitting in class. And it was interesting because Judy Chicago's dinner party was in London at that time and Mary Hawkesworth and I went to see it together. And that's very bonding for any feminist experience. Which is interesting because Judy Chicago is gonna be at UofL today, this afternoon. She's giving some of her 5:00quilts. Oh yeah that's one challenge of UofL. But anyway so the three of them - Lucy Freibert, Mary and Cissy were in a lot of conversations and friendships and Cissy became a trustee at UofL. And so when Cissy became a trustee, the three of them pretty much cooked up the idea of having a Women's Center. And this was the late '80s. And so they--it would be interesting to look at the history of women's centers on campuses. And I don't know if you are going to be looking. That's not really your focus. But there were at that time--it's sort of like LGB centers are now. So at that time there might have been 8 or 9--7 or 8 in Kentucky. I don't remember. And so the um they wanted a women's center. And I 6:00wish there were papers on this. Cause to be honest I'm not so clear what there--they might have not had a three united vision of women of what a women's center would do. I know they were concerned about students and young women learning the history of feminism, having chances to interact with them outside of classes. And also reaching out into the community, engaging community. So they triple-teamed President Donald Swain who is also a historian. His wife, Lavinia Swain was good friends with Cissy. So I think they used all the entries they had. So the three of them really persuaded President Swain to establish a women's center in 1991. He did that which, much to his credit, however he would 7:00not establish it as a permanent budget line. (laughter) So he set up one-year funding for it. And so what as it turned out what they needed was somebody with a PhD or academic credibility who could also fund raise. And you might remember that at that point I was a fundraiser.

JW: Right--just the person for this.

JJ: Yeah, exactly. And I had gone to Appalshop to work on a 4-year fundraising National Endowment for the Arts fundraising campaign for them to build the endowment and we were just wrapping that up. So it was amazing synchronicity and I got a call from Mary Hawkesworth and it was like we're gonna have to start a women's center and we only have funding for one year. Would this be something you would be interested in? I really thought of it a lot cause I do have mixed feelings about academia again. And I so very have a love hate relationship with 8:00academia. And also I didn't think I would like Louisville because I'm from Lexington.

JW: Oh.

JJ: So I really did think of it, and I mean there was an issue to get it but I was like do I really want to do that? But really it was Mary and um Lucy and the chance to work with them and be with them. I have a good personal relationship with Cissy and I greatly admire her. She is--was at the time, a pretty big-time republican and that's not my political persuasion and so um my mom was a pretty big-time republican so I have special--a tenderness around the partisan thing that I mean--and Cissy was much more active in politics at the time. But so but she was solid, she was always solidly for the Women's Center. So I interviewed for the job and I came to Louisville in 1991. There wasn't an office when I got 9:00here and it wasn't clear if I was reporting to the Dean of Arts and Sciences or to the President or to the Provost so there was a lot of you know--I'm not sure I could have negotiated the early years of that without all three of them. And so they triple-teamed everybody. So Cissy being a trustee had power and influence, Mary's so shrewd and then Lucy just being a solid voice for we need a Women's Center. So I was in the basement of Gardiner Hall with no windows, no computer and no assistance whatsoever.

JW: You were the Women's Center.

JJ: I was the Women's Center. But you know at Appalshop is a very--I love it but 10:00at Appalshop I shared an office and you know it was much less well funded. So that sounds kinda bad by some standards but by non-profits have an office is a big deal. So we began building the Women's Center and it was always the three of them. And they never wavered. And I know I did things that probably made them cringe. I never really had a hard time--just the republican stuff. But I never had a hard time with Mary and Lucy ever. And they were just solid, solid, solid, like whatever you want. And we did have to start raising money pretty quick. And we would have these, we shamed them, we shamed the Dean into giving me a new office cause we still had to invite people to the office. (laughter) So then I was in the basement of Gardiner Hall with a window, but I didn't care. Then we did get two work study students. And interestingly this is a whole nother--if 11:00ever anybody ever wanted to do women's center it's like classic. The two women who were assigned to me were very dear and wonderful. And both--so I was 44 I think then--and they were both in their probably in their mid-50s and very beautiful women and upper middle class women whose husbands had left them for younger women. Both of them. 

JW: Oh interesting. 

JJ: And both of their husbands were prominent in Louisville.

JW: Oh wow.

JJ: Yeah. So they were like classic second wave. You know--it was really interesting to work with them. And they had both come back to school because they had gotten married early and hadn't had their degree. 

JW: Right.

JJ: So that's why they were doing work study. And they had known each other socially but not been really good friends. They had moved in the same circles. So that was really interesting. So we started having these teas and fundraising 12:00events and doing this grassroots fundraising cause that's the kind of fundraising I did at Appalshop. That was also, the reason I finally decided to take the job was living in Appalachia where there were very strong women leaders but they do not call themselves feminists and that is not all their fault, that is feminists' fault.(laughs)

JW: Right.

JJ: And I felt pretty strongly about that and I wondered--and also that was the time of post-modernism which was driving a deeper wedge in my humble opinion into a feminism just through language. And I wondered if grassroots feminism and academic feminism could be reunited. And I wanted to make that my mission and I felt like--and I still feel like to some extent, I have a special--I can do that because I'm from a working class family, single parent, eastern Kentucky roots and I have a PhD. To be honest, I finally lost patience with academic feminism 13:00and like that's not for me. But it needs to be--somebody needs to be there doing it. So anyway, I was very community focused. And even then I don't think we caught a third wave. But even then once you get out of academics and there are all these questions of, what is feminism? And I came to my own feminism from the Peace Movement in Vietnam so I was a peace hippie before I was a feminist you know. So I've always been like--it's inter-sectional like but--that's hard and I know that not too much Lucy, because she was not ideological--maybe that's one reason why she can be so uniting. Because you know, I don't know, I have to think about that more because I just thought of that now, but she has a very great acceptance and positive spirit and Mary was a little more ideological on the intellectual rigor side and Cissy was more the ideological and republican 14:00side. (laughter)

JW: Representing a broad swath of views

JJ: Lucy really played--she was the glue, you know and I think this happened in every other women's center I knew cause women's studies was already there so of course there were tensions between women's center and women studies and then while I was here the Commission on Women also got set up so then of course there were tensions on who did what and blah blah blah. And Lucy was always the one everybody respected and Lucy was always the one that could go through the different camps and make peace. And she never--she just did it by being universally positive and never speaking ill of anyone and never giving up that 15:00we could all work together. So I really give her a lot of credit. She was the key because we would have self-destructed. And other women's centers have this same issue. We actually had a meeting, tried to have a meeting, well we did have a meeting of women's centers and women's studies in Kentucky.

JW: Oh interesting. Do you now when that was?

JJ: Maybe it would be in that five-year thing. I don't know if it would have been in the first five years or not.

JW: I don't remember seeing it but I could look back into it, yeah.

JJ: Yeah, and there were tensions. (laughter) I think there's probably less women's centers now. Some of those women's centers didn't make it. I think pretty sure Northern Kentucky University had15:49 one then and it went away but they're back--I don't know. But just keeping in touch--there's just a lot of 16:00structural issues. There's structural issues, there's resource scrambling. But there's like focus. And I was hugely community focused, huge, huge, and I actually got criticized for that. Which seemed odd to me but--I started working with the arts there because coming out of Appalshop there's a real focus on arts and culture as advancing social justice. And people telling their own stories--that came naturally to me. And at Appalshop at that time there was a project called the American Festival Project that was a national project that used the arts to advance social justice. And in the early years at that time, many of those focused on campus. So they had one at Dartmouth and I went to that and when I came back I was talking to Mary Hawkesworth and I was like, it was really great, it was wonderful! And she's like, we should do one here. And I was 17:00like, yeah we should do one here. And she's like, how about in April? And I was like--She was shrewd though because she saw the need to like have a high profile. So we--because of my connection with Appalshop and the national--we were able to secure a $100,000 grant.

JW: Oh wow. 

JJ: Right and I told this story before so to be careful I'll tell you what happened17:25 before when I told it but um--we got a $100,000 grant, I got a new office, I got promoted to the Provost's office. So that really, even before, just the grant, not even doing the festival, before the festival I was like up.

 JW: That was 1993? Wasn't that when that was?

JJ: Yeah. I told this story at a conference American University of Colleges 18:00conference and a Native American man said, so you think it was all about you?

JW: Oh no! (laughter)

JJ: Yeah, yeah, I thought I was being funny, so you have to watch out when you're trying to be funny. And he really made me think. To me I meant it to be a commentary on what the University values. And we did the festival and it was great. And Lucy was, Lucy was always really supportive of the community. Everybody loved Lucy. You know they did and she could see the value of the arts and she crossed the world--I mean she might have, everybody might have thought she had a special understanding of them but I felt like she was really supported of the community base, at a time when there was criticism, there's criticism in women's studies--I think Mary never ever ever criticized me--Mary Hawkesworth, but I think she was like more on the academic side and so I think Lucy's support and also Lucy and Mary, but really Lucy because of her personality, building 19:00unity on campus and dampened down those tensions and--was really the key. Let's see I was going to say one more thing about her. Um oh, yeah at that time there wasn't a LGBTQ--there was a group an there was--a guy--a wonderful guy and he died of AIDS--that now's there's a scholarship for him. [Note: Ken Terrill Memorial Award] They called him by his initials. Well he was like the student advisor for GLB and so there had been like student organizations in and 20:00out--student organizations were more or less radical and so the Women's Center became a supporter ally for them and so one time--What was it? It was GLOW--G-L-O-W and uh--I loved that guy--we really got hooked up with them during the American Festival Project. We had some of the plays and stuff we dealt with focused on that. So when this guy came in--he came into our office and we had a really nice copier. (laughter) And that really nice copier got used a lot--by Women in Transition, by Women Who Write, you know--just a copier can mean a world to people. So he came in and said, can I use your copier? And I was like, sure--and I laughed. And he did like these bright, neon bright--I don't actually really remember what it said, bright neon fliers, copies and he put them all over campus. And it was out there. And I don't remember what it said, but it was 21:00over the line. In many people's. And they, like the vice-president--(laughter)--and they all three stood beside me you know--and Lucy was right there and I don't know how she felt--I don't remember what it was--it wouldn't be anything bad today. I think it might have used the word queer. I think that was it. I think it used the word queer in like 1995. 

JW: Right, right--really different.

JJ: Yeah and that like that got us into the vice--so we were all on the line. But we all stood together including Cissy. But I did at the time think about--wow, how does the faith--how does this sister--I think that was always 22:00that you know she was willing to--it would be wonderful to know what she was actually thinking about that and how she reconciled it with the churches. 

JW: Did you always know that Lucy was a sister? Like you knew that. 

JJ: Yeah, it was part of her story. 

JW: Okay.

JJ: And then I thought you know, I'm old enough when I thought she'd be walking around in a habit, you know when I met her and so she--they still were--some of them. So yeah, that was part of her story. And then Mary Hawkesworth grew up--well not Cissy--I don't think Cissy's Catholic--but Mary Hawkesworth was brought up working-class Irish Catholic and her grandmother went to church every day. Went to Catholic church every day so Mary sometimes referred to her as Sister Da Da Da--her whole name.

JW: So it was Sister Mary.

JJ: Yeah, yeah--so she was very connected with her in that sort of way. And Mary definitely wasn't faith based but her mom and her grandmom--she grew up in that, yeah.

JW: Do you--can you say a little about what the students thought of the Women's Center? How did they respond, or what did they value about the Women's Center?

JJ: So the the fact that we--this is interesting because I didn't really know the backstory before I got there. Like I think Brian Buford, he's in Student Government, right? Or Student Affairs? 

JW: Is he--I believe he directs the LGBT Center.

JJ: Aren't' they located in student activities? I think so.

JW: Yeah maybe.

JJ: Yeah he's in personnel--he's really great.

JW: Yeah, he is great.

JJ: And he knows how to work the University system personnel. But where you get 24:00located is all about that. So um in many ways, good and bad, so I don't know why they chose to have it located--I was either gonna be in the dean--when I got promoted, I got promoted from the dean to the provost. And they wanted somebody with a PhD. So it was never based in student services when I was early there, when I came there, Kitty Amos was the Vice President for Student Affairs or something like that. They changed it around since after that. And she was very supportive of the Women's Center and me. And when we did the American Festival Project on campus that was probably the way we engaged students most. But she would be like parallel with me--with the Women's Center, I shouldn't say me. So she was a great ally. But she totally purported--those are 25:00different worlds--the academic world and the student world and so um, I think Brian's really smart to be in student services in there, or whatever they call it now and the guy--Dan Terrill--DT--[Clarification: Ken Terrill, KT] he was in theater so he was in academics. So there wasn't--I think before Brian--there wasn't--well there might have been student organizations that had--oh yes--they had what do you call it? Status--they had official status. But they--so--I was on the academic side and we had like sexual harassment was a huge issue at that time.

JW: Oh really

JJ: Yeah, it was just--I think the Anita Hill thing that--I'm pretty sure

JW: Yeah because I remember you like yeah cause you started your first day at the Women's Center was the first day that Clarence Thomas was appointed. (laughter)

JJ: Yeah that whole arc, yeah. So Mary was very concerned about sexual harassment and Mary had been doing training.

JW: Among students or among faculty or staff?

JJ: Both

JW: Okay.

JJ: And Mary was the one that got--I don't know if Sister Lucy Marie did or not--but Mary was a magnet for students who had been--so we had a lot of focus on defining sexual harassment and education about sexual harassment and doing--I remember talking to one of the sororities--which was really--I was like eh--cause I'm like um working class--but they were great, and they were like, see I told you you shouldn't have been doing that (laughter) I mean the ones that invited me wanted to learn, and they wanted boundaries and they wanted to 27:00know their rights and they wanted to know what--they were really great. I was like wow, that just goes to show you, you shouldn't be making assumptions about other people. 

JW: Right

JJ: So we had a huge focus on sexual harassment and then we were trying to--and I think they still do this so you might be interested--we were trying to get the university to--I think we were trying to get an ombuds person for sexual harassment because Mary was getting--and then we were trying to get records because we knew that students were repeatedly saying the same people that the university wouldn't put records--no--they were like no written records. And we had a huge fight with them and Mary you know, we had a huge showdown and they were like, no written records. And so then you know--it was terrible--the women's community knew four or five people that were huge repeat offenders. And 28:00so that was a big focus and that is a certain kind of situation of dealing--you know--and I think the American Festival Project and the art projects we did--cause we did two more after that--we worked with the theater department and when you do the art and culture and that's what's so strong--people that aren't already the true believers will show up. So you are reaching new people and I think that was our best way of engaging students and community. The most--our best moment as a women's community on campus--I don't know if this was in the first five years--I don't think so--no I bet you it wasn't. But um the interaction with the athletics department was always--so my office was on Gardiner Hall so we were looking out on the quad which is really beautiful 29:00you know but they would have fairs for students and I was just--and Mary was next door in Grawemeyer, no Mary was next door in political science and I don't know where Lucy--I guess she was in (unintelligible) now and they were having this student fair and the all these student organizations--and they had one that was like Louisville Ladies and they were like supposed to be escorts for the football team. 

JW: Oh, do you know about the Gibson Girls? That was way back um you know two decades before all this happened.

JJ: Yeah so we went ballistic (laughter) We went ballistic--and um--all 3 of us 30:00went ballistic and Kitty Amos was ballistic--cause it was students--it was her province--So Kitty and I actually went over to the football coach. I forgot his name but he was pretty famous. He was really clueless--the old guy before that went to Florida--forgot his name--and we had to meet him in the locker room and this is gross--it did smell like sweaty jock straps. It was like, he couldn't come out of there to meet us? And he was like, if it's a problem the women can set up one and the gentlemen--and we're like, no. So we wrote a big, huge article, we all cooperated and we got a big story in the Courier-Journal and an editorial and I'm pretty sure--but guess what happened--do you know Mary Craik?

JW: Yeah

JJ: So she read that story and she called me up and said, are you the one who protested this whatever? And I was like, yeah. And she said, I want to give you all some money. (laughter) 

JW: Excellent

JJ: So that's how the Mary Craik scholarship--And that was also like a good example of us working together but it was also very antagonistic and conflictful. So when Tom Jurich came, everything started ramping up in the athletics and he hadn't been there very long and I think they were under some sort of accreditation, I don't remember what--so oh Title Nine, so the idea was they were gonna eliminate some of the men's sports to make the balance for Title Nine. Everybody was mad about everything. So our finest moment was--everybody--so the Women's Studies folks went and did research, research to talk about other ways. The Women's Center went out to community people, people 32:00that wanted to send their daughters to be on athletic teams to talk--the Commission on Women was there then and they got high-powered academic policy people, and Lucy was like a front spokeswoman, we put Lucy up there in the front you know and we had a whole day with series of talks all day looking at this is not--we do not have to do it this way, there's other models, this is gonna hurt the women's teams, this is not gonna be the kind of Louisville we want. Lucy can always make that--and Jurich changed his mind and he said, Okay you're right. And that's when they did swimming. He said we need to upgrade everybody and not--you're right--and we were all like, What? Really? And that's when they did the women's rowing team. Cause Tori Murden came--you know, so that was a great 33:00moment of triumph and unity and harmony and I give Tom Jurich a lot of credit for it. 

JW: Do you know what year that was?

JJ: It wasn't too long after he had been there and I left in '91, so it was probably about like '90. So I would say, I think some people thought I was focusing more on community than I was on students. Which I think that's fair. But I think on a commuter campus like that. And they didn't have hardly any dorms then--and the blue color-ness of it--I think having a program in the public library or you know to me it was like, I was really trying to bridge. Some of the stuff we did, like late at night, and the American Festival students could come to easier than in the day, they were always working. And so I think 34:00that, I would say I was more community focused. So I think you know women's studies--and I think there was tensions.

JW: Yeah and I think that persists. You know and how--you know is teaching about feminism really enough? Or how we get that way out of the classroom. You know kind of thing. I feel that UofL is trying to become, not to become but also be that kind of residential kind of campus for younger students but there are still so many students that commute, or are non-traditional students or all of that, that kind of (unintelligible)

JJ: That's really one thing that made me want to go to UofL. And I hope that 35:00doesn't--I wouldn't wanna be--I mean I love Centre, Berea, you know, I did that, I worked at a small college and I really loved it but I don't want to, I want to talk to real folks--you know. And I think the ones that are working, are so much more aware, for one thing they're aware of discrimination. But they're so much more aware of like minimum wage issues or something, than like traditional college students because they just haven't had that experience yet. So like what? Why do we need that? I mean they might, especially the privilege of being a residential student and when you're earning your own way, you don't--you really understand.

JW: Yeah, it's a different dynamic. It's also a different commitment to your studies too.--when you're footing the whole bill, there's a, I think there's a 36:00different kind of investment in yourself too. That's just my opinion that I hold. In a good way. 

JJ: So I think I'm really talking about Lucy as more of a presence or this conscious voice, this person who showed up and everyone always loved whenever she walked into the room and she did--it wasn't just like some kind of symbol. Because she did make good cases and made good arguments. She always spoke for justice and love and equality in women. So it wasn't just like that she didn't push but her presence could just assure everybody that we were--that whatever we were doing at that time would be good for a lot of people and just one group of people.

JW: That is kind of a unique skill set or kind of a way of being. It is really a gift.

JJ: It's probably related to her faith.

JW: Yeah, I think there's a reassurance or self-assurance or something that she has that is definitely something that she just kind of carries, still carries, always carried I guess.

JJ: Yeah and the belief in the good of people and it's funny cause like Anne Braden, who's a different woman, but Anne Braden always, always, always--even at the very end--believed that you could just get the right flower and give that to the right person and that person would change. You know she never lost that belief.

JW: Yeah, and Lucy's very similar in that way we were talking a couple weeks ago and that kind of what she was saying--If we could just talk--I feel if I could 38:00just talk to people it's different. Like she was talking about being frustrated with Mitch McConnell. She's like, I just want to talk to him. 

JJ: Ah that's so funny. That faith. And you know Anne Braden was a woman of faith too. So it's interesting. And I think that some of us are trying, and I put myself in this category, we're trying to change the system but not the people. And then that's when you are trying to change the system and not the people, the people sometimes think they're in your way and they probably know that. Get out of my way. Yeah that's probably not gonna--yeah, this is interesting that we're talking.

JW: Absolutely and I think that there is that--you know the classroom is kind of an opportunity to really change people. And so I think that's kind of interesting.

JJ: But arts are a way to change people too. I just want to mention this because I know Lucy supported this too--so we did the American Festival Project so when I went to Dartmouth there was a really amazing performance artist named Robbie McCauley. Oh yeah, I can't believe I didn't tell you this story. So and she's still around, I think she's at Holyoke now, an artist in residence, and she had 39:00done this play called In Your Blood and it was about mixed race African American, White and Indian in the South and her grandgather was a Buffalo soldier and it was great and she's great and I really love her. So when we did our American Festival we did ours around women's issues. And so I was like oh I want Robbie to come and then you worked with them. And so it was Robbie and I was like Robbie will you come and hear our festival? And she's like, yeah I would love that and I was like, yeah I hope you can do In Your Blood because it's really good. I think that's the name of it. It might have been a little different. And she's like, oh Judi no for a woman's festival, I have a new play and it's really--you have to do this one and it's called Sally's Rape. And it's a really about Sally Hemings but also my grandmother Sally and we're really 40:00looking at how sexual violence really divides white women and black women because white women historically have not had that experience and there is a white woman in the play and we talk about these issues and you really need to do that. And I was like,okay. And she said and when I'm Sally Hemings, I get completely nude and stand on an auction block. And I was like, do you have to? (laughter) And she's like, yes. So they all stood behind--Mary and Cissy and Lucy--and we had to say there is nudity in this performance, you know and I really thought something awful would happen but nothing awful happened. And it 41:00was very powerful because Robbie is like, at that time, she's diabetic so she's had a lot of illnesses. She's got a striking figure but I wouldn't call likel hugely sexualized. And she was probably in her late '40s, early '50s and she does get on the auction block and stand up there and she says to the audience, Bid me out, bid me out, (snapping fingers) come on bid, how much you gonna give? And this total vulnerability and it was the Thrust Theatre. You realized how complicit we all our in that system. I mean it was a transformative moment. So just--and then the play lasted 45 minutes, the discussion lasted two and a half hours.

JW: Wow, wow.

JJ: So just like if you like if you said some big scholar is gonna come and she's gonna talk about the history of sexualized oppression of black women and 42:00how that realest to white women you know some people would have shown up and they would have talked but this was just like a whole different thing.

JW: An emotional connection.

JJ: Exactly.

JW: That's really great.

JJ: So the fact--that's what I mean when they all just stood there, they all stood behind me, all three of them, all the time. Behind the Women's Center. I didn't want to personalize it just to me.

JW: You were doing a lot of that early forging. Without a lot of other people to (unintelligible) the Women's Center.

JJ: Right.

JW: Let me see if there's any other questions.I wanted to ask, um. Anything else you want to add about the Women's Center or Lucy or any um.

JJ: Well just her generosity. Because her scholarship was important to her. And I know she had that some big project she was so worried about finishing up. I don't know if she ever did. It was somebody's bibliography.

JW: Yeah I don't think that she did. It's an American humor bibliography.

JJ: Yeah, she just worried so much about that and it wasn't even her project. I think somebody died and handed it over to her.

JW: She had promised that she would finish it.

JJ: Yeah, but her generosity was just amazing, of showing up and being available and talking to students and you now being supportive and um she never seemed to be too busy to--I mean I'm sure she was busy but she never said--you know how some of the younger of us at the time we're like (whisper) Ah too busy for that.

JW: Right.

JJ: And she never was like, ever, ever, you know I mean, she was just--generosity of spirit. Um--well.

JW: That's really good.

JJ: Yeah? Have we covered it?

JW: I think so.

JJ: Okay! I'm sorry it's not so [tape stops abruptly]