Interview with Mark Abromavage, September 30, 2016

[OFF MIC CONVERSATION]

CHIP NOLD: Okay, there's a consent form here to sign but you can do it at the 1:00end if you want. Basically it just says that they have the right to share this interview. This is for the Louisville Underground Music Archive that's in the U of L library. think we'll sign it after we talked just so, because you can put restrictions on. If you feel like you didn't want Sean Garrison to hear what you said about him you could say, you know, "Sections about Sean Garrison cannot be released until after he dies." But at any rate --

MARK ABROMAVAGE: That's a bit much.

CN: But you do have that right, it is your thing. Okay, so, all right. just to get this off officially started, this is Chip Nold; I'm interviewing Mark Abromavage, guitarist in bands such as Malignant Growth, Fading Out, Kinghorse, Arch and the Decline Effect. I missed one, am I missing one?

MA: No MFG, Fading Out, Arch, Decline Effect. I guess that's it, I don't know. Kinghorse, did we say that?

CN: Yeah, okay. All right, we're talking at Fire Studio. Is that the name of it right now? Fire Studio, where he works, on September 30, 2016. So born -- wait, hold on. Okay, when and where were you born?

MA: When and where? As opposed I mean it like?

CN: Were you born in Louisville?

MA: Yeah.

CN: Okay and when were you born?

MA: Where?

CN: When.

MA: The year?

CN: Yeash?

MA: 1961.

CN: Okay, all right. So, you're from Louisville?

MA: Right?

CN: Where did you go to high school?

MA: Butler High School, vaguely.

CN: Okay, where in Louisville did you live when you were young?

MA: Initially grew up in the West End, so right across street from Fontaine Ferry, for a few years, moved into Portland few years. Then we moved right on the outskirts of Shively when, I guess probably -- I know it was at the end of elementary school. So we moved out there and then, mother still lives there.

CN: Okay, and so that's where you were living when you when you got involved in the music scene.

MA: Yeah.

CN: Okay, all right. What did your parents do for a living?

MA: Mom was a waitress. My aunt owned a restaurant, a greasy spoon, in the West End -- she worked there for, I don't know, 25 years or so, then the place wound up folding, then she got a job at Humana and winded up retiring from there.

CN: Okay that was Mae's Whiz, right? I remember that.

MA: Yeah.

CN: Yeah, okay and so Mae was your aunt?

MA: Right.

CN: Okay, all right. So how did you get introduced or interested in music? What do you remember?

MA: Well, I always grew up, you know, with an older brother that always seemed like he was interested in music and then, I don't know, I just became fascinated 4:00with just certain music. I mean, I don't -- for some reason, I remember listening to the Beatles. But I think what happened is, my aunt had a jukebox in the restaurant would always -- they would play that and she would get all of the -- when they restock the jukebox, she would get all the singles, then I would listen to them over there. Or my brother would get some of them. I remember listening to the beginning of -- they had a Beatles song, "She said so."

[SINGING]

CN: "I Feel Fine," right?

MA: Yeah.

CN: "Because she says so--"

MA: But just like the beginning. I think there's a beginning note in that just--

CN: Feedback and yeah.

MA: And just certain things always grab me,, because she would always have all the weird novelty records. So, it's just always been kind of a part of my life, but not really, not necessarily the musical aspect. Not then. Brother finally, he went off to service when I learned how to play guitar. Then he gave me his, I think -- I don't know about his first, but it's my first acoustic guitar, which I still own to this day.

CN: How old were you then?

MA: I would say I was 16.

CN: Okay, all right. And you hadn't really played before then?

MA: No. Other than, just trying to play his upside down. The burden of being left-handed.

CN: Right. So, and your brother Chris, how much older is he than you?

MA: Four years.

CN: Okay, all right. So he gave you this guitar and then what did you start 6:00doing with it?

MA: Just trying to figure things out. I mean, it was -- e played a little bit, but I've never been good enough to play other people's music. I can play bits and pieces, but I get frustrated or whatever, move on, and so it's always been, a little bit of here and there. And then I got to the point where I wanted to play lead, or just be able to do other things, and it seemed like, it was pretty fun. So, start playing to records and all that stuff.

CN: So, was Malignant Growth your first band then?

MA: Right, yeah.

CN: Okay. So, tell me how that came together?

MA: Well, it was always, me and Kenny Ogle, and he was the -- I don't know about the brainchild, but he was the -- he always pursued, you know what I mean, he was the one that was like, "Let's do this." So we always wound up me trying to play guitar and him trying to sing into a little cassette recorder. So, that's how we initially tried to start, writing music and songs and yeah, I think that was it.

CN: So when might that have been?

MA: Have to be either, early '79, maybe.

CN: Okay. All right, so you'd already gotten involved in the punk scene by then right?

MA: I don't -- well, I guess maybe so. I mean to some degree but--

CN: Because we met in '78, maybe it was more early '79 that -- but anyway okay. I'm trying to remember the years, but I think when all the Louisville bands like No Fun and the Babylon Dance Band started out was '78 So you all came to the thing on Main Street in '78 right wasn't that?

MA: No, I think Kenny did.

CN: Kenny did. You weren't with him?

MA: No, Kenny had saw, I don't know if it was -- wherever it was, it was a first-floor thing and they -- I vaguely remember him trying to, something about climbing in and out of a window--

CN: Okay. So that was the show at the yeah, it was the old Galt House right there at second and Main and Kenny came to that. So what was the first show you remember coming to?

MA: Jeez, I mean it had to be, a Babylon Dance Band show, I would think. But 9:00where it was at? Whether it at Woody's Tavern or -- there was so many. I don't remember the order of them but, I want to say where something even not so -- something non-bar or even maybe--

CN: Like a party or something?

MA: Yeah, maybe the Red Barn, when the New Wave festivals or something.

CN: So let's go back a little bit. Why -- I mean, punk rock was not the popular thing -- it's never been the most popular thing, but it really wasn't the popular thing then. Why were you attracted to it? Why was it that it was the 10:00kind of music that interested you?

MA: I think mainly a lot of mainstream music, whether it was disco at the time or whether it was -- I don't think corporate rock had really blossomed by then. But everything -- it was more, I want to say down-to-earth, more along, my thought process I guess. It was something I could relate to, you know what I mean, grassroots, back alley, whatever.

The music itself was aggressive and tended to be, you know, more upbeat, and to this day, I still listen to upbeat music. I think what the bands were saying, 11:00what little I could understand, because then it was lot of the English bands.

CN: Okay, all right. So, we talked a little bit, but one of the questions that interests me is, in what way did the music seem different from what you'd experienced before?

MA: Well, I mean, a lot of it has -- the music itself, or the scene part of it?

CN: So that was my next question. However you want to take it.

MA: See, I kinda lost my train of thought there.

CN: Just how was the music or the scene different from what you'd experienced before? How was that a new thing for you?

MA: Well, I think, because there wasn't a music scene so to speak, in anything I was part of. There was all these people that have a -- it wasn't a gang, nothing like that. But it was just the people that had like-minded visions, or, they were just little off-center, they didn't care, what you brought to the table, as long as you are, I want to say, at least respectful to everybody.

Everybody got along with one another and it was just, it was always nice people involved with it. I mean the music and the people itself, don't necessarily -- you want to think about the aggression and all that. But those people are not like that, say, on a one-on-one basis.

CN: Okay, all right. So how did you hear new music back in those days?

MA: Usually it had a lot to do with either friends, or the parties, or whatever the -- I guess the music that you would go to, or the scene, or the shows and the music that was played while you're waiting for bands, or whatever. Or the friends that had the money that would buy records and such. It was always something new.

CN: Okay, does anything stick out for you in terms of, "Man I remember I heard that record and that just really changed my idea of what music would be?"

MA: I don't know. I mean, there was always milestones in which you would listen 14:00to. We would struggle -- or you're always searching for something different, something new. I mean, so when you heard the, like, first time you heard the Sex Pistols, it was just like, "Damn!" Then you get beyond that, you hear the Exploited which is total -- I mean it's another notch up. It was always the new music that's drtiving you to look for more new music. I mean, I remember hearing, being up in Lexington, probably one of your old shows and hearing "The Day the World Turned Day-Glo." And you just think, like, "What the --?" That's great!

CN: That's an excellent choice. I remember, I can remember hearing that for the first time too. It was just "Wow."

"MA: Yes. Necessarily it wasn't so much guitar driven or what, but it was just the whole package, just seemed to just make it.

CN: Okay. Well, so I guess you were playing with Kenny before you were playing with Chris -- was Chris still out of town?

MA: Yeah, I think he was still in the service. But he had a different mindset as far as music and such. And, he was familiar with some new wave stuff, so to speak, but he was still more into trying to figure out some '70's rock and stuff, whether it was Sabbath or whatever. So that was more along his lines.

CN: So how did he get roped in, then, when he came back?

MA: Well, I think because we started thinking about getting, playing music, and I picked up the guitar and I was playing -- I don't know if I was better, but I seem a little more adept at it than he was. So he thought it might have been a logical choice for him to start playing bass, because it couldn't be two guitar players in the family, for whatever reason.

CN: Okay. So, what was it like? I mean, I was thinking about that. I mean, what was it like playing with your brother? I mean there were a lot of brothers in the early punk bands, right? O'Bannon and the Durigs.

MA: It was rough at times. I mean, because he's pretty headstrong, pretty much know-it-all. And we've always had some brotherly clash as far as, just playing 17:00together. So, I don't know, I just --

CN: Sure, yeah ,I mean, it's being brothers. So you started talking about you decided to -- you wanted to play music out in front of people. What do you think the motivation was there?

MA: I don't know. I think it was probably seeing the other bands, it's like you never think -- maybe you do -- but you always think, "Well, I could do that." Or, not to where I could do better, but it always looked like fun, and there was 18:00people that were -- at the time it seemed like there was a lot of people on the same skill set or whatever, that it wasn't too -- it didn't seem like it was too far removed to be able to do it. And I think there was people that nurtured the thought that you could do it.

CN: Okay, all right. Well, so I mean, tell me about-- you mentioned a little bit about your brother. Talk as much as you'd like, or however you'd like about Kenny. He was kinda an extraordinary person in a lot of ways.

MA: Oh, yeah. He was always -- we -- wouldn't know where to start. Yeah, because there was two different Kennys. There was the Kenny that played the music. I mean, he was always a social person, but he was always -- he always had a little bit darker side. Stuff that I got to see or deal with. It was 19:00always, "I need money, I need to borrow some money, lend me some money for this that, then buy my records."

He would buy a record. That was the friend that would help me further my record collection, because he would buy records, and then not long after he bought them he'd want to sell them. So, I would get records from him. He was just always looking for some hustle. He was good person or, but I'd say he would always be into something, or trying to think of how he could get something from somebody, or -- and it was always me and him together, but it was always me getting caught. So it always left kind of a bad taste in my mouth, that I get suckered 20:00in and then I'm the one getting in all the trouble.

CN: What do you remember about your early performances?

MA: I mean, actually, very little. And I remember, I think our first show, I want to say, I think it was the first show, or maybe it was the first show that my mom chose to come see., was at the South 40, so the whole -- it just wasn't a very good scene for a mother or aunts or whatever. Ah, there's the mailman--. 21:00[TAPE CUTS OFF, THEN RESUMES]

CN: So we were talking about early shows and you said you thought you remembered, let's say, like the South 40?

MA: Yeah, I think it was my mom and my aunt came out and, I guess because we probably opened, I'm sure, and she said she couldn't understand any word except for "Fuck."

CN: Was she upset or amused?

MA: It was probably more on the amused side. I mean, that was the first and last show. I mean, she always nurtured me to be able to play -- put up my guitar in the living room, you know, all the time and stuff like that. So she never complained really unless I turned up -- unless I plugged in and turned up. But other than that she's always been good as far as the music portion.

CN: So you're saying, so did she never came to any other show?

MA: No. But I mean, that one stood out. It's so hard some of the shows that we played in the earliest, especially with the early days with Kenny, whether it was, the Tiki lounge [He's referring to Chip Nold's bachelor party in the recreation room of the Kon Tiki Apartments] where he wore a seersucker suit and had the issue with the guys like, I guess because it was in a recreation hall or something. And they were -- somebody was getting on somebody else in this was--

CN: You're talking about out at the Kon Tiki Apartments.

MA: Yeah. So I think he had a little altercation with some of the people out there. But it's just because they would mess with other people they shouldn't have. So he was more like the -- he felt it was his duty to watch over those who necessarily wouldn't take up for themselves. So, he was always good about that.

CN: Okay. So, did you did you feel like you had local influences? Were there people that you looked up to in the scene?

MA: Oh, yeah. Of course I always lean toward guitar players. So, Tara [Key] was always a big influence on me and she -- I think you follow people as far as you can, I would watch her, and still couldn't figure out what she was doing, but there was certain things I could figure out. So, you would you would take that 24:00and use that. And then once you get to a certain point, it's just like you just get lost. And so she was big influence, then Alex.

CN: That's Alex Dureg in the Endtables, yeah.

MA: Yeah. he was a, he was a big influence he was a little heavier, not unless even as -- I guess he was more along the lines of what I would like to do, but not necessarily in that style, I guess. I mean he was heavier he had the lead and stuff. Whereas Tara was more she was more chord oriented, and then had some weird lead thing going -- her interpretation of a lead. But I think those -- and then the -- of course the O'Bannon brothers. They were in a class by 25:00themselves, I guess, I mean, the way they played was necessarily -- it was a good style, but it necessarily wasn't -- it showed they had ability, but it was definitely different than, where I was leaning toward.

CN: So that more R&B, traditional--

MA: Kind of roots rock.

CN: Exactly. We talked about this a little bit, but how did your participation in the music scene fit in or not fit in with the other parts of your life?

MA: I'm not sure. Playing in that, playing in that scene or whatever, I don't 26:00think it was anywhere, there's like a difference -- it was a different side, that's why I live in the South End, but I could go to the East End to play the music. And that's where I always wanted to go was toward the East End, because that -- the scene, or more so the community, or all that was a little bit more welcoming than where I was at. Whether it's being on the garbage truck didn't have anything to do with music and such.

CN: But sometimes, I mean, you would have to sometimes go to work right? After you'd been playing until late at night -- am I remembering that right?

MA: Oh, yeah.

CN: Because you just did it, because you were a young man and you could.

MA: And I could,yeah.

CN: Okay. Talk a little bit more, how about the South End and the East End thing? Because I think that's a real important thing in the Louisville scene. 27:00You just said, talking about being from the South End and coming to the East End, I mean, how did -- do you need to get that? Okay. How did you feel I mean, about that? I mean, that's Louisville territorial lines.

MA: Right, well I think the whole East End was more of a -- seemed like all that was easy to find. If you go to the, whatever house it was at the time, whether it was even one of -- the Hepburn house or 1069, I mean it was always -- you always knew where the people were at. I mean, not necessarily, if you could go there or whatever, but you could drive by, may be that you could see them. South End was a little more scattered, a little more -- it was a little less visible.

I mean it's like, it was it wasn't easy being in a punk band or-- in the South End. And I think just because it's, there wasn't a localized place for people to be at, other than maybe the record stores, maybe that was the place where you might occasionally see like people or where the music where the -- that type of music was at?

CN: And so, where did you what was the record store I'm trying to remember?

MA: It was Phoenix, Dixie Highway and Greenwood. I guess then, that was more of the impressionable age where you would just, you're starting to soak up all the music that you could. You're going to look and see what it was, and hopefully 29:00you walked away with something good.

CN: Yeah, a lot of times you're buying a pig in the poke right? Yeah, because you liked the way the cover looked.

MA: And a lot of times that worked, but sometimes, you would get direction from the people working there. And it was just not necessarily what you wanted.

CN: Yeah. Well, so talk about, so Malignant Growth starts and you're playing with Kenny and then Kenny leaves, right?

MA: Right.

CN: I'm trying to -- just talk about the transition then from Kenny to Brett and I feel like right around then, my impression is that you all started to change some musically as well.

MA: Yeah, I mean, I don't know whether it's by choice or, it was just those, the records like, say the music that you're playing. So when Kenny leaves, okay, so 30:00now we're looking for another singer. So we're playing music, we have no singer, we're trying different people out, whether it was Tomato, or Kelly Smith, he sang for a while. And it was pretty much -- it was never really went very far other than just basement enjoyment.

Like doing the "[Great] Rock and Roll Swindle" or, and then so while you're doing all that, then whether you discover the Ramones or those group of people over in that neighborhood, or start getting into metal, like Judas Priest and all that stuff. And you start hearing other things, and it's just like, well I mean, there is-- I think it was the start of, probably speed metal, and all 31:00that stuff. So you get more, you start hearing more and more, I said, "Well yeah, I like that."

I like playing fast and a little heavier edge, so, it all works pretty good. So, as that blooms, then all those group of people, you start running into people that knew, all those people, like they knew people who sang or doing whatever so, we wind up with Brett. And Brett Ralph, he had the -- he was more into the records part of it and the music and whenever. He started getting into all the West Coast punk scene. So going through, looking through Maximum Rock 'n' Roll and all that stuff and discovering Black Flag and bands like that. So, I think with everything involved, I think that's how it all started gravitating toward a different sound.

CN: Okay. Well, so Brett was what, 16?

MA: I think so.

CN: I mean and you guys were probably in your early 20s, am I right?

MA: Maybe, I mean I might have been 20, 21 maybe.

CN: Okay. And then Chris was four years older. I mean so, but that's a big gulf at that age, right? I mean, he's still in high school.

MA: Oh, yeah.

CN: I mean, just talk about that a little bit I mean.

MA: Well, the first time he -- when he showed up Irv Ross, I think he was a friend of Brett's, brought him over, because that was who they knew, and I think Sid, or Todd Fuller, the drummer -- I think he knew him and winded up bringing him over, we were having a band practice. So our thoughts were we needed beer, 33:00so we went and got a pony keg of beer. And I'm not sure we even found a microphone that day. But I guess, from then on, I guess he decided that was good enough.

CN: But it's more interesting to me that you all decided that you would allow a 16-year-old into your thing. What was that about him that -- ?MA: Well, I mean, because he's a lot bigger than a 16-year-old. He was -- he had ideas, he had songs or poetry, stuff that can be easily converted. And it just seemed -- especially with the small group of people from there, that it was a natural fit. 34:00The music, the opinionation, the, you know, all that.

CN: Okay, all right. So, then I mean, I think of that time period, I think of you all becoming more of a hardcore band. Because I can remember somewhere around that time, you all had had long hair up to that point and then you got real short haircuts. And it started being more -- the music started being a little more in that vein. Do you accept that, or you're looking at me a little skeptical--MA: No, I think it's probably right, I don't know if that -- the haircuts came because of the music or just being tired of being a hippie. I mean, just having long hair is not much fun after a while. That's, but I think it's the whole, the West Coast stuff, whether it's to explore -- hearing the Exploited, which is a little more heavier, head-edged hearted -- Metallica and 35:00all that stuff. I mean, there was, there were people that listened to metal. So, I mean, that's always what I've always been likea big Black Sabbath fan -- heavy rock, but necessarily, not capable of playing a lot of it. And I think a lot of it has to do with the -- my ability to play music and start branching a little bit more. I mean, I always change styles and such after a while anyway, and it's not necessarily -- I think I'm inspired, but not really consciously, and I think I just tend to gravitate toward whatever. however I feel at that period.

CN: So how did songs get written in Malignant Growth?

MA: Seems like, I did a lot of the initial writing and then we all pieced it together. So there's music that was -- some of the music that's more bass-oriented was actually, a song written by Chris, and then we kinda took it from there. And I think everybody had their own, had their input as far as how things got put together. Then of course, Brett writing on this -- writing lyrics on the spot or, and changing things up.

CN: So, you'd bring in some music or a riff or whatever, and then you work it out with everybody.

MA: Right.

CN: And then it would get changed. So it seemed like, Brett came in what? Was 37:00that '82, I'm thinking -- do you remember?

MA: That sounds about right.

CN: It seemed the next few years were really this growth for you guys. I mean, you played in other cities a lot more. And got bigger crowds in Louisville, just describe what that was like?

MA: It seemed pretty intense to go play, and have crowds I mean, and then to be able to play for, to open for a lot of these big-name headlining bands.

CN: Who were some of the ones that you opened for?

MA: Let's see, they are, I mean, Minor Threat, Black Flag, Circle Jerks, DOA, MDC.

CN: All right, I remember that show.

MA: Would have been Bad Brains if I hadn't have been in jail. So, I mean some of them are, couple times we did open for the same band and so. But it was nice to be the go-to openers. And then just have having the crowds, and I think a lot of it had to do with, the union of those areas of, where we were practicing, that group over there, the people that Brett knew. Al the, his football players and rugby friends and all that stuff.

CN: When you're saying where we practice that was Chris's house in Highland Park, right or was that?

MA: Well, yeah, I mean that wasn't necessarily the big draw, but I think it was the earlier days when we were over in Tomato's [Kelly Smith's] basement.

CN: Okay and where was that?

MA: I mean it's right near my mom's house, so about a mile from there. And so a lot of those people from that area they carried over into the scene.

CN: So, would there be a lot of people coming over when you practiced -- would there be a crowd around in addition to you guys?

MA: Not, huge. I mean because it was -- a lot of times it was -- some days it was even weekday parties, and we just had to practice and get before -- while 40:00his folks were at bingo. Or, of course if we went to Chris's, I mean it was always the same bunch, at least a handful. So, a dozen, maybe.

CN: Okay, all right. Well, so did you, I mean I'm just wondering if you had a perception of the crowds getting bigger, or the band getting better in that time period after you -- after Brett came in?

MA: Well, I would think the band got better. I mean, there's always different markers as far as your progression in this and you could always tell about the songs that you write. When you change, when you start doing these different 41:00things, whether it's the addition of leads, or certain parts that break down that you would struggle with, but you could actually pull off eventually. So, musically you could see yourself getting better; crowd-wise, it's always a crapshoot. But I think in the early days there were the shows were so sparse, that there -- and it's kind of a built-in draw to some degree.

CN: Yeah. I remember, it seems like it's this time period, one of your big concepts was the superset, talk about that, explain what that is?

MA: I think somewhere along the line that I'd heard one of the Beatles records that they'd come up some ingenious thing -- at least that's how I perceived it. 42:00But whatever song on the record, when every song ended the last note that song was the first note of the next song. And I thought that was pretty ingenious. So you can actually string songs together and not have a big key change and then people go "What the hell just happened?"

So we devised a way, because there's only so many notes you can you can start with. So whether it was the last note and then starting with the first note on the next song, or if it was just how they would run together or what -- where they would stop and start, if you could pull it off without throwing everybody off. So we would just practice maybe it could be 10 songs in a row or that was 43:00always -- it seemed it left a lasting impression on other people as well, I guess.

CN: Just the intensity of it and the fact that it didn't let up.

MA: Right.

CN: Okay. All right. So then, well I know that -- for you, I mean what's like say the most memorable Malignant Growth show for you?

MA: I don't know, that's a hard one. I don't -- I mean well--

CN: If something doesn't stick out that's fine, I mean --

MA: It seemed like it should, I mean I really can't think of anything that --

CN: That's cool. So then talk about so then Malignant Growth became Fading Out, talk to me about what the change, what you saw the changes being there?

MA: Well, I think that was a lot had to do with Sid [Todd Fuller] left the band and then we picked up Sean Mulhall and that changed the dynamic of the sound.

CN: How would you say?

MA: It's less of a heavier edge, less intense. I mean, he could play fast but not fast and hard. He had more finesse, more style -- he could actually play drums, where Sid was a little, Sid learnt how to play, I think one of the nights 45:00that Lonesome Dave Bradley quit the band. So we said, "Anybody know how to play drums?" and Sid showed up and said, "Yeah, I can." And he couldn't really play, but he attempted so he got better. But then after -- and I think that was, that may have a lot to do with, style of music too, just him being able to play it when we get then when he actually left, Sean playing, and then I think he had a little bit more input in some of the music, the way some of music was put together. Just may have been another phase of my writing because, after a while, you get tired of playing so fast, so aggressive. I mean, I don't know if you 46:00consciously want to show that you can do more than just play barre chords and all that. I'm sure it was just a overall change in the whole dynamic of the band. Brett's writing, his song, his lyrics and whatever, probably changed, a bit. Different music influences, probably on my part.

CN: Is there a way that you could characterize the difference between the two? You said when you talked about Sean's drumming having more finesse, but how would you say that what you were doing changed? So you said not as much barre 47:00chords, but what else?

MA: I think it was just a little bit more trying to play a little bit more intricate, but not so heavy-handed on a lot of the stuff. I mean, it's a lot of it still good, but it's just the whole structure and the dynamic of trying to write songs that are a little more involved, I guess.

CN: So how long was that period with Sean in the band?

MA: I would say it's probably a couple years, maybe at the most.

CN: And then that was where it broke up at the end of that. Was there a drummer after Sean or -- ?MA: I think we had tried, we went out and tried, actually, a few different drummers trying to keep it going. And we actually tried Kevin Brownstein, who wound up being a drummer for Kinghorse. We tried him out, and he just wouldn't, he wouldn't do no homework, and Chris is just like, "No, no way." We tried some, maybe one or two other people, and they just weren't -- they had the enthusiasm and not the ability. And I don't know, I mean, we're always kind of, image self-conscious. So probably like "Do you want that person in the band?"

CN: Right do you want to answer for that person?

MA: Right.

CN: Yeah I know that. So then, so it just, did it just fall apart then without a drummer? Is that the--?

MA: I think so. I mean, I think everybody was pretty much tired of just going through the motions of it. Chris being involved, he kionda, he's not very motivated just hanging out waiting for something to happen. It just happened just, we moved on without him. I guess that is the other thing ,because we actually played a little bit --I'm trying to think, and I think Kevin drummed we got rid of Chris for a while or not for a while, but get moved on without him so 50:00to speak. We got Joe Grissom, and I think he played at least one show that I can remember, that wasn't very -- that wasn't the answer, you knowr. So, I think after that, we decided it was over.

CN: Okay, so this is, do you remember around when that was?

MA: It had to be, jeez, '86, '87.

CN: And so, then did you start Kinghorse? How much time before Kinghorse got started?

MA: I think we got started in early '88.

CN: So tell me how that came together.

MA: I think because there was all, there was the other bands going on, whether it was what the hell was the name of the band? Maurice, you know which had Mike Bucayu and Sean Garrison in it. I think they were looking I guess after that band had split up for whatever reason, but they were looking for another, looking to do something else. And so the story goes, they looked -- they tried to get Alex Durig to play.

CN: I didn't know that.

MA: And it may or may not have, I don't know if they actually got together with 52:00him or tried. But I think it was about the time that he had moved off to Bloomington. So I think Bucayu approached me, I believe, to see if I wanted to play music. And at the time, I'd had, still playing, so I probably had some music, to use and get started, so we just took it from there.

CN: Did you have any particular thought of what I mean what this band was going to be like? Any particular mission statements -- a ridiculous term to use, but an idea of what you want Kinghorse to be?

MA: I don't think I wanted anything, I mean I was just wanted to play music again. Sean was always the one that had the vision of how, what image it would, it would take on, and I was more just -- I guess when we started we were 53:00actually playing songs leftover from Fading Out. So there are some songs that-- we did, like, one that Brett Ralph had written, there was some other material that we had that actually never went anywhere, but that was like the starting point of what we were using to play.

CN: So it's a new group of people, right. And I know, I mean, I feel like I met Sean with, through you or Brett, one or the other, but you've known him for a long time he's been around. Did you know Bucayu very well?

MA: No, I'm not even sure. when I when I actually first met him, I mean it may have been just the fact that he played in Maurice somewhere along the line. But other than that, I don't -- well, I think he was in Solution Unknown,, so, I may have known him from there also. But again, well, it was the whole Filipino connection, because Dave Pajo played in Maurice. So that was, it was like that group of you know that end of town -- those, I don't want to say those people, but--

CN: Those guys.

MA: Yeah, those guys.

CN: But so, I always think the band is -- every band has its own personality from the people who are in it, right?

MA: Right.

CN: And I wonder how you would contrast, because other you'd been in the same continuous band, even though personnel had changed. -- what it was like being in a new situation for you all of a sudden?

MA: I mean it was different, it was--  it was fun again. I mean, not to take anything away from the other band. But being able to play with a different group of people and have no history behind it, you know what I mean. It's like ,you play the same songs over and over and your fallback songs and whatever -- after a while, it gets a little tiring. So to be able to just write new material with -- have no perceived idea of what you're going to come up with, it's like a clean palette. It was it was fun, it was good.

CN: And yeah, I mean I guess I'm just thinking too I mean I don't really know Kevin, but Bucayu and Garrison are real characters. How quickly did -- I mean, Kinghorse got so big. How quickly did that happen?

MA: Some of it was pretty quick, we did -- I know we put it out on a demo in October of '88, and then I can't even remember when -- our first show was with Fugazi and that was I think over at the Sportsdrome over in Indiana. It just all 57:00snowballed from there. It was doing all the right shows at the right time, and it was surprising to me that it was so much different than playing in Malignant Growth or Fading Out, because there's people in attendance and it was still, it was a younger crowd. I mean, it might have been the same ages as the Malignant Growth crowd, but now I'm a little older and they're younger, so it was -- it was fun.

CN: You'd get a couple thousand people right?

MA: I don't know about a couple thousand, but it was at least a little over 1000.

CN: Whereas an early Louisville punk show would be 100 or maybe less.

MA: Yeah, if you had a hundred people you were shitting and flying.

CN: Yeah, well, so I can't imagine what that's like. I imagine that must have 58:00been really, really an exciting thing, to really feel like you've got this big audience that you're playing for.

MA: Yeah, like I say, I still don't understand where they all came from, but I think a lot of it had to do with Bucayu working at ear X-tacy so he's, he was a socialite. Rat [Seam Garrison], I don't know, Sean, I don't know where he actually fit in but he always had his group of people. I think it's just being in the right band at the right time.

CN: And what now were you still working on the [garbage] truck at this time or had you moved on?

MA: No, I was still on the truck, I think worked on I worked on the truck and playing the Kinghorse until we actually went out on tour, then I quit that job. 59:00Or left it open where I could come back.

CN: So you went out on tour when?

MA: It had to be early '90s I mean how along that.

CN: Had you put out your album by then, or -- ?MA: Yeah so we were actually late, because I think the album came out in October of '90. And I think we probably went out, you know, and it's probably mid '90, you know so we're '91, probably, I mean it had to be the summer months but we were probably seven, eight months overdue as far as getting out on the road.

CN: And how long was the tour?

MA: It was just a couple months but because we were -- our booking agent was a little localized, we were still doing shows, we were supposedly a national act 60:00but still doing shows and went whatever places we could get a show at while we're on the road. And a lot -- the big itinerary, there's a lot of shows that fell through while you're out on the road, so anywhere within six hours of home we try and come back home if we could, even if it was for a couple days and go back out. So it was being on the road, but not too far from home, seems like.

CN: Well, then I don't know if there's anything to say about recording the album. I feel like I've seen stories about that over the years and I can't really remember what they were.

MA: You mean just other than the -- well, we did the out -- there wasn't really any pre-production work. other than you go up in New York and they rent out a rehearsal studio. And then it's like for all these bands that really have a stage show because you're sticking, you're playing, you're writing, you got a big wall of mirrors so you can see how you look like while you're playing. And we got Glenn Danzig over listening but he's playing he's more interested in playing tickle games with his girlfriend and talking about he's going to change this and change that. And we're just about ready to just go off the deep end. My head's throbbing, I've got a headache and just the whole fall of all this is about ready to happen. Going to studio, moving on, it winds up being a big headache: He wants to change; we don't understand why. Why would you practice 62:00something for months on end, then all of a sudden the last minute, when you're actually gonna record, why would you change things? And from there to dealing with the head of the label telling us that this is what we need to do and it's all for the better. And in reality, a lot of it was for the better -- little more palatable, it was different, it wasn't what everybody in Louisville had heard and whatever, but it helped, it just -- the way it all went about, it was pretty screwed.

CN: Then you felt like it was a good representation of the band?

MA: Uhhh-- yeah.

CN: I mean, you always wonder, could we have done this or that, but--

MA: Right I mean you read it, you hear about people like, "Oh they stuck to their guns" and their integrity is intact, and this, that and the other. And it's just like, well how many chances do -- especially back in the day, do people, little local Kentucky bands, get a chance to record and deal with all the stuff, from whether it's with Danzig or even the engineer was is, he was the engineer for the Beastie Boys' first record. So I mean, we had good company and you'd like to think that, well, if you bend a little bit it's going to come back to you, it's going to pay for itself and yeah, I'm happy with it.

I think production could have been a little better. It's like, it was good, but you don't go to a hamburger joint and get a pizza. You need to have people that play that type of music or record that type of music dealing with the stuff instead of just local. -- or not local, but just, instead of the names, right, you need to trade talent or ability for the names.

CN: So when you toured did you get any help or support from the label -- it was Caroline, right?

MA: Right, I mean very little. I mean, they were like they were more of a 65:00distribution then they were like a, record label. So it was something new for them. They were getting barraged from all different sides as far as who was contacting them, whether it was Sean or Mike doing prank calls or whatever. And then, having Elaine Ford, who was doing the booking, calling, saying she was our manager, and then having those guys call back and say, "No, she don't speak for us." I mean, they were just getting mixed signals, they were getting tired of us, and, it's just like, you can only mess with people so long. And so they were trying to do what they could as far as where they -- as far as like radio, college radio and stuff. Maybe some posters at the shows when we show up or whatever, but it was pretty scarce.

CN: Because I looked online, and I saw somebody -- this was just like on an 66:00Amazon page for your album or something, but somebody said, "The blend of metal and punk that everyone was looking for without knowing." I was just wondering wondered how you react to that description.

MA: I think, I have no problem with it, I think it's a question to people who wrote, who write on Amazon, a lot of them tend to be either fake or people that we know. But I think we were a good crossover and I think that's what they were calling it at the time. We were too punk for the metal kids and too metal for the punk kids in a lot of ways. So the music wasn't exactly for everybody.

CN: Right, but it seemed like that type of music then a couple years later was, got really big -- or similar, so it's not exactly the same. So then how did Kinghorse come to an end?

MA: I want to say, first it started with Sean. He quit the band for whatever reason, because whether it was a psychotic episode or whatever, he quit. Then we looked for other singers and that didn't really pan out well. I think we were laying in limbo. He -- they decided to come back, I think Bucayu wasn't 68:00available, he wouldn't, he didn't just want to -- we're trying to keep things going, play whatever, not necessarily shows but practice, have fun and he, I think it was when he was doing his record store [Blue Moon Records]. And I think he really couldn't be bothered with what we were trying to do at the time.

So we wind up, so I think Kevin and Sean finally got together and decided they wanted to try it again. Found another bass player and we played some shows and then there was the big, infamous show at the Grand, where I became intoxicated, overly intoxicated to play. And so, I mean, that was our big reunion show 69:00actually. And then it wasn't long after that we tried to redeem ourselves and it just seems like the whole thing had started to fade away. And I mean the crowds, the people, the venues, it was -- I think it was time for a change in the guard, or it's that cycle that happens with bands in the local music scene, I think.

So without, just never, nothing was really said it, just everybody just quit coming in contact with one another.

CN: So that was like what the reunion was in '94 something like that?

MA: That's possible yeah.

CN: So then did you go for a while without playing in a band?

MA: Right, yeah. I think because I'd gotten married and was dealing with all that stupid stuff. And so got way out there in the country, away from all of it. Didn't do, didn't have any involvement with it, and really wasn't playing guitar at the time. And then I think -- I'm not sure who got a hold of me. But when we started when Arch formed and it may have been maybe in 2000 maybe. And so it was Jerry Cunningham, bass player that played in the last days of Kinghorse, Paul Helvey and Alex Rose. So they wanted to do a band, and started playing with those guys.

Since it was totally something different to actually play with another guitar 71:00player for once, so it was maddening -- like it made me mad, you know, actually. The one quote somebody said that I hadn't played, see how did they say it? That they knew I hadn't played guitar in a while and it showed. So it was a whole getting back in the groove, actually playing again, trying to remember what I remember. But, all in all, that was probably one of the, just the writing, the songs, I mean, some of the more, the stuff that I'm proudest of and 72:00I don't know if it's the music or just the group of guys that wind up being, at least toward the end, that was actually a fun band to play in.

You didn't have to babysit all the things that go along with maybe you don't know that, but--

CN: I think I know a little about it.

MA: Yeah and a lot of stellar people in your bands, but --

CN: So when you came back then, how is the music scene different or was it?

MA: It was just like all the people that were -- I mean, it was definitely different. All the people that were fans at one point in time had grown up, they've moved on, they got families, are married or they just got, they become professional or, like some of the kids you see, they were fans, now look what 73:00they're doing, it's just amazing and you go, like, "What happened?" I mean, here they are doing, being the professionals and now you're just still a musician --  I mean, that's kinda the way you look at it. So it was like you had to develop a whole new fan base, but you still don't know where the fan base is coming from.

CN: Was it was it younger, or did it tend to be more like your age?

MA: They never seem like they're my age, without them, and they always seem a little younger and I think here there's some diehard people that there'll be music fans all their life. And then there's people that the new age. So it just seemed like everybody under 30, I mean, seemed like that was the crowd, you know what, of course, we were playing all age shows and all that stuff, but -- and we had to rely on bar age people, at least. So, but everybody at that point was 74:00between 21 and 30, I guess it was always and I guess.

And I guess what's happened with the whole music scene and the whatever is, as people say, that the stimulation or whatever, it can be satisfied at home now. So, whether it's YouTube, or any of the streaming music stuff, I mean, everybody, they can hear their music and do whatever, without being subjected to bars and the people that frequent bars.

CN: So then how long did Arch go?

MA: I want to say 2007, maybe.

CN: And then when did the Decline Effect start?

MA: Jeez, similar maybe in a couple of years after 2009 maybe. I'm not sure on that.

CN: So anything to say about that band, I've taken so much of your time--.

MA: Because this is just jumping right back in the hot seat, my brother. It was fun to play music again, it was fun, as well as maddening. Say, there's always a fight right around the corner if you want it to be. Yeah, just him being able to appreciate there's different -- so how different group of people have a different set of circumstances. So brothers -- he probably hadn't played in a 76:00while. But the funny thing was, the drummer wound up being our little league coach's son from the West End. They had knew each other from other bands.

So, me and my brother playing, he decided he wanted to play music again, or least jam, then decided, "Well, why don't we take it a step further and get a drummer?" And somebody said, "Well what about Jay, Jay Brown." And so we tried him out, he was just -- it was just a happy union. So, Jay had the practice spot, the ability and the wanting to play so, it was pretty fun. And look for 77:00Dave -- look for a singer, and Dave was the first one that tried out, so we thought that was going to be the ticket, Dave from the Glasspack ["Dirty" Dave Johnson].

CN: So in a way, like if I was a movie producer, so you've come full circle, but I mean, just how do you reflect on playing music now? What, I mean, close to 40 years am I doing that math right? I think I am -- '79 would be 2019, that'd be forty years. I mean, what do you think about it? I mean, how do you reflect on 78:00this long period of playing music and moreover, what is what's the thing that you want people to know?

MA: I don't know, that's pretty deep.

CN: Well, let me just ask you this: Is there anything that we haven't talked about that you think is important -- other facets of the scene, or stuff you've done?

MA: I don't know, I mean it's just strange to have -- I mean there's people that have hung on for the whole duration, they still make an appearance once in 79:00a while. I mean I always, I don't know you play to play and you want people to like what you do, but then again you take the hard-ass attitude a lot: "I don't care if you don't like it because I'm playing for myself." But in reality you're playing, you want people to like it. So you just hope people find something in my body of music that's, that they can enjoy.

They don't necessarily have to like everything, because chances are I probably don't, if I had to look back, there's probably bits and pieces that I don't like that I have accomplished.

CN: This has been great. I really appreciate you taking the time and I think you 80:00gave me a lot of good stuff for future scholars of the Louisville Music Scene.

MA: That's good, sure.

CN: Okay. I'm going to--/AT//