Interview with Elmer Lucille Allen, April 4, 2016

Wes Cunningham: All right, this is Wes Cunningham, sitting here with Elmer Lucille Allen on April 6th and on University of Louisville's campus. If you could do me a favor and say your name and where you're from.

Elmer Lucille Allen: Okay. My name is Elmer Lucille Allen. I was born in Louisville, Kentucky. My birthdate is August 23rd, 1931. I went to all African American schools, you know, during that period of time. And I took art classes in junior high but I did not take another art class, formal art class, until 1981 when I came to the University of Louisville. 

WC: And what schools did you go to?

EA: I got a BS (bachelor of science) from Spal-- it was Nazareth College then and it's now Spalding University and it was an all girl's school when I went. 

WC: Okay. 

EA: Then I have a Master's from University of Louisville in ceramics and fiber. 

WK: Ok. Can you tell me when you really started to get involved in the arts scene? Not necessarily personally as an artist, but with the Louisville art community?

EA: I really got involved in the arts community-- in fact I helped form the Kentucky Coalition of African American Arts in the early '80s and I was the president of that organization. And you can have this--

WC: Awesome

EA: -- and this will identify some of the artists at that time, because this was in the '80s.  And I have the four-- that's what I wrote, you can have that. 

WC: Thank you. 

EA: And I was one of the founding members of the Arts Council of Louisville--

WC: Uh-huh.

EA: And you can't have this but if you want to read what I have written, I can scan this for you--

WC: Yeah, that'd be great.

EA: --but this is Ed Hamilton _______ (?) pages but you can scant through that, read through that if you want that. And whatever you want me to scan, email me and then I can scan it and send it to you. 

WC: Okay. 

EA: Okay. That's in the Arts Council of Louisville 2004 and that's a directory of all and there are photographs and everything--

WC: Oh, wow. 

EA: --in here. 

WC: So did you, were you not active in the arts community until you formed-- until '80, '81?

EA: Until the early '80s. I took my-- I've always done artistic things like I sewed, I took woodwork, I took jewelry, but I didn't really take a formal class until I came to U of L in '81. 

WC: And what prompted that decision?

EA: Well I took-- my first ceramics class I took was in 1977 and I took it with an art therapist at Seneca High School and I made two pieces which I still have. One was a little thrown cup and the other one was a little turtle that was hand built and I still have those two pieces. I can send those-- send them to photograph those and send them to you. 

WC: Yeah, I'd love that. 

EA: Yeah.

WC: So, did you see how the art community interacted with the city of Louisville prior to then?

EA: Well, actually, they're still trying to interact with them. And like I said, I knew Mr. Coxe. I knew him as a friend and knew his wife and all but I really wasn't involved in the art scene during the '60s and '70s. When I got involved was when I helped form this organization, the Kentucky Coalition of African 4:00American Arts. 

WC: Can you tell me, did you meet any resistance when forming--

EA: No because Ken Clay had the-- he had the very first African American arts conference and that I think was a Renaissance. I'll send you the cover of that first one he put out. And from that conference, this organization was formed out of that organization. 

WC: Ok. And how long did that organization--

EA: It lasted from '81/'82 up until the early '90s and the money that was from that organization went to help fund this organization, the Arts Council of Louisville, which is still in existence. And the director of that is Mama Ya-- Gloria Gibbons (?) So she's the one-- but I was the first treasurer and one of the founding members. 

WC: Yeah, I heard her speak at the Unity dinner. 

EA: Ok, ok, ok. Another person who was on that board who is still alive was Judy 5:00Jennings (?) who was with the Kentucky Foundation for Women and she's retired. But she was also a founding member of the Arts Council of Louisville. 

WC: Awesome. Can you tell me a little bit about how important of a role African American art played within the black community?

EA: Well it's a vital to me, the arts are vital to any organization, to any group of people because it becomes a legacy of what-- how they lived. I don't do black art, but I feel like art is universal. So you do not have to do-- people say I do art and I hope everyone appreciates-- I've done teapots for years and I've sent you my resume, you've seen where I've shown work and stuff like that. And in fact, my latest show that I was in was this one right here. There-- I have those two pieces that I have, and that was in the-- in January and February 6:00for Black History Month-- so I did those. And those were two firewood pieces that I created and this is like a ___ (?) but you start out white and the create a sort of--

WC: Wow. Some of these artists that you spoke of-- G.C. Coxe, Ken Clay, and things-- how did you get to know them?

EA: Well, I knew Ed as a youngster because his mother was a barber and-- but I grew up, everybody on Walnut Street which is now Muhammad Ali was a street that I'd walk up and down the theaters, we had three theaters. We had the Leer and the Grand (?) which was across from each other. And G.C. Coxe was the manager of the Grand Theatre and there was a Palace Theatre, it was at 13th Street. And 7:00you'd walk up and down the street as a child and you didn't think anything about it-- it could be night time or day time-- and I was brought up to speak to everybody so you'd walk up and down the street and you spoke to everybody and you just-- you know, nobody bothered anybody. 

(WC) And so that's how you kind of got to know--

(EA) I got to know and when you talk about Ed Hamilton, my husband who is deceased was a photographer-- and he photographed Ed Hamilton's very first works that he did. And I went with him and I documented Booker T Washington --the installation-- and we and his wife and Ed and Duffy drove a car and they had to go-- because the sculpture was actually ___ (?) in Detroit. And so he and Duffy went to get the sculpture and I drove his wife and his daughter and his son and his mother and so I drove and so I was telling his wife-- anyways, she slept 8:00while we was driving, and she didn't realize that while she was sleeping, we'd already passed these places before because she was asleep. And what was ironic when we were hanging-- I had these pictures that I need to-- and they were all shot with a 110 camera, and I have them at home. And when he got ready to put up Booker T., the holes were not the right holes to put it on and they had to go and get the drills and they broke drill bits and all this stuff. And I got pictures of where the National Geographic was photographing it. And I have all this-- all these actual photographs. It was just a rewarding experience. And then I went with him-- I went to Washington when he did the Civil War Memorial. 9:00I went with him when he did the one in New Haven with the amistad (?) up there. And I did the one at Frank Kentucky State (?). And then he did one of the senators or something, I went to that. But it's just, I just feel that it's rewarding to go and support the artist and to see his work now down on the Velvedder (?) and up off the river, Abraham Lincoln sitting up there. And to see that he's internationally known, just from Booker T. Washington-- that was his start. And I didn't go to see Joe Lewis (?) because my husband was sick during that time.

And during the meantime, there was Miss Huddleston (?) who I did not do any work with, but she was one of the earlier African American female artists. And, granted that, you could-- there was another lady who was a retired school teacher, Will Mcbethel-- (?) she teaches art for the Louisville Visual Arts 10:00Association for open doors and so does Duffy, he teaches open doors. And-- but it's just-- and now, I have been running the gallery for Wayside Christian Mission. We'll be eleven years in-- this month. And if you get the opportunity to come on Sunday the 17th between 2:00 and 4:00, we will be celebrating the 11th year then. And each year, I've tried to show at least there-- I have twelve months and I have twelve different artists and they show that whole-- and we have an opening on the first Friday from 5:00 - 8:00 and then we have a second reception on the third Sunday. And I have at least one or two African American exhibits and these can be solo shows or two person shows.

WC: Wow.

EA: Yeah.

WC: You've got your hands full.

EA: Oh yeah, I do. And one of my photographers who died this past year was Joris, Dr. Joris Howard Young (?) and she had shown at the gallery a couple of times. She was a doctor-- but she was part-- she attended the Louisville workshop. 

WC: Okay.

EA: Yeah. Another lady who attended the art workshop was-- I can see her right now-- in fact, she took art classes from G.C. Coxe-- I have to-- Margaret Harris. She's not an art-- she doesn't do art now, but she took classes from G.C. Coxe and she has a couple of paintings in her house that she had taken when she was taking classes with him. 

WC: Can you speak a little-- I'm kind of switching gears, going a little further back. Can you speak a little on the importance of an African American culture growing up when you did?

EA: Well, I didn't have a-- well, as a child growing up, I never went to school with whites until I was a Junior in college. So my whole lifetime was in the 12:00African American community and during that time, the library was segregated-- you couldn't go to the Free Public Library, movies were segregated during that time. So, it was up-- all the teachers-- all the-- I graduated from Central High School. So everyone you interacted with was African American. Other than, I babysat for-- in the community where I grew up at 18th and Chestnut-- there was a Jewish grocery store and a Jewish drug store and I babysat for this little girl, Clarice. And I went to Shawnee because at that time, the parks were segregated. And if anyone that's over sixty or seventy, the only park they could go to was Chickasaw Park which I live within three blocks of there now.  And I 13:00used to take Clarice to Shawnee Park, but they didn't even want me to go to the restroom in Shawnee Park. So that's-- that was that period of time. So up until I became-- and the reason I went to municipal college-- write this down--` Louisville Municipal College-- from 1949 to 1951, and that was the black college for the University of Louisville and they closed it in 1951 and then that's when I went to Nazareth College and that's where I got my degree from. 

WC: Ok. Did you feel like it was kind of tough to maintain this kind of cultural identity once things became integrated?

EA: I don't really, I can't really say that I can because when I graduated from college, I could not get a job because I got a degree in Chemistry. And my very 14:00first job was as a clerk typist at Fort Benjamin Harrison (?) in Indianapolis. And there, I worked with a person who had never worked with an African American before, it was another all white situation. So you always was just one of one or two and you had to stand your ground. And I went to Brown Forman in 1966, and I was the first professional African American period in the professional at Brown Forman, and I stayed there 31 years and retired from there in '97. 

WC: Wow. 

EA: Yeah. 

WC: What was it like being the first?

EA: Well what it was like was I told them, I was hired to do a job and I was one of three women in the lab and I told them that I was-- we was hired to do the same job and that was it-- after that, we had no problems. And this white woman, 15:00her husband died and I went to the viewing. She was surprised to see me. Well, I work with you, and if I'm a friend of yours, I work with you, and if some member of your family passes, I'm going to go to the funeral or go to the wake. So she appreciated me being there. And you just have to fit in and you can't carry grudges and you go around and it's like here, at U of L in the ceramics, there might be one other African American in the ceramics class during the course of the year. Most time, in the advanced classes, none. But you have a presence and they respect me and that's all I expect. 

WC: Did you see a strong sense of art and cultural advancement even before you got involved in the community?

EA: Well, I wasn't really actually involved-- no, I've always been. Well, I can go back. I've been involved in the community but not always in the arts. 

WC: Uh-huh. 

EA: Because I've lived in the Chickasaw Park area where I still live. And at that time, I had two young-- two sons, and I wanted them to play little league ball. They couldn't play little league ball because the only league in the West End was the Shawnee Little League. So I formed the Chickasaw Little League, had six teams, got all the uniforms and everything, and was recognized and did that for my kids-- had that for three or four years. So I had sponsors who actually bought-- and we played the teams throughout the city when they had tournaments. 

WC: What importance do you see with African Americans kind of doing this art, doing this groundbreaking art and exhibiting throughout the city, what 17:00importance do you see that playing? 

EA: Well, I think it's very important maybe-- I think it's very important--

(train horn)

-- I think it's in the way you carry yourself because this past month, I was-- I juried people that were going to get the Fund for the Arts Award. I was asked to be one of the jurors to decide. I think this is the first that Kentucky Fund for the Arts, Louisville Fund for the Arts has given an award and they think they're going to give six awards I think in six different categories and I was one of those people who helped judge narrow down the list. And since that time, I have been asked to be on the External Arts Agency Board for the city of Louisville. And, because I have been out here, in the trenches since I've been running the gallery for the past eleven years at Wayside is that I am really more known than 18:00most people because I'm seen, I'm recognized, and I do work, I do art, and then I'm an arts advocate.

WC: Did you play any role in any kind of social justice movements? 

EA: No, I'm not-- I go to something, but I've never marched. But, no-- I support what they do but I've never marched, no. 

WC: What role did you see arts playing in that --even though you didn't participate yourself-- what kind of role did you see arts and black intellect, black nationalism play?

EA: Well I think there's always-- blacks have always-- maybe because they've always had signs and posters and things like that. Martin Luther King and all that. And maybe you don't think about-- when you design a poster, you don't think about that being art. 

WC: Uh-huh.

EA: But someone had to set down physically, photograph or take an image of it and put it into print and distribute it among the people. 

WC: Let's see. What were the themes that you mainly focused on with your art? 

EA: Well, my themes-- I like-- my main themes are geometric. Squares, triangles, rectangles. As you see in my work, and in my teapots, they go all different. My first teapots, they were square, then rectangles, they've been curve shaped, they've been in the shape that you took a photograph of. But most of my fiber work is more or less based on geometry, yeah. 

WC: What do you think having Louisville Arts Council or the Kentucky African American Artist Directory (?), what do you think that says for how far--?

EA: Well, that directory, that's the second directory. I had a first one. I don't know what happened to the original copy of that one. But it was funded by the Kentucky Arts Council and I hired two men, one who's still alive, James 20:00Millon (?)-- he's blind and lives in Philadelphia. And they went out throughout the states and identified the artists like in Paducah (?) and Hopkinsville (?) and we met periodically with the Lexington Arts Council. And along with this organization, there was two arts conferences that I put together. One was here in Louisville, Kentucky at the Brown and another was held in Lexington at the Hyatt Regency (?). And we brought in national speakers and stuff like that. 

WC: Cool. What do you think that says for how far things have come to have such an importance put on art?

EA: Well I just think that we have to recognize all ethnic groups. You know, and you look at what all has been destroyed overseas now, with this ISIS (?). They've just gone in and just bummed up and destroyed art and they go back hundreds of years which represents your culture. You look at quilts, the quilts 21:00that were made were actually when the slaves came over-- they worked for whites and eventually, they had their-- they would make the quilts for the whites, but then they had their own quilts that they made where they made them out of the ________ (?) the quilt ladies down south. And they made them out of old haul (?) blue jeans and all this stuff-- out of old material. But that's-- and you don't think about quilting, but quilting is an art form. 

WC: Uh-huh. And how important do you think that continued cultural identity is?

EA: Well, that culture still continues because that's something that you can do-- they would have quilting bees. In fact, have you interviewed Pearly Johnson here on campus? Well she's over the-- she replaced Dr. Bob Douglas. And her focus is African American quilts. And she's documented them and has had an 22:00exhibit like that. But that's her main focus is African American quilts. 

WC: With some of the artists that you were familiar with, Ken Clay, G.C. Coxe, and things like that, did you see their art kind of informing the civil rights movement or the black freedom struggle? Did you see their art kind of displaying that? 

EA: Well, see. I've seen Ken as a producer, as someone who actually meets people and puts their art out there. But as an artist, he's more like an arts administrator. Bob Douglas, he's done all types of art, and he did-- Booker T. was actually his first major sculpture but he had been doing found objects and other types of art prior to that time. But he really became known when he did Booker T. Washington and that was installed at Hampton University (?). 

WC: And, did you see their art being, not politically motivated, but kind of 23:00socially aware?

EA: Some of their art does speak to a certain segment of what's going on. It's like black lives matter-- this was depicted right here, on the front of this, was done by Darcy (?) who photographs for the Louisville Defender, this was his piece. Therefore, you talk about-- so this is political. 

WC: Uh-huh.

EA: --Yeah. And so, but everybody has exactly-- no one does-- he might do political work but he goes I hear, and photographs everything that's going on in the city. Yeah. 

WC: And just to kind of wrap things up, kind of get it closing out: What in your mind is the most significant part of your career as an artist?

EA: I see myself as an example. Someone that-- I do not promote myself. If 24:00someone wants to promote me-- I'm in three books that I did not ask to be in. Jones Zender (?) who is the exhibiting artist at Wayside this month did a book called The Portrait of Grace where she actually took a photograph of me and then painted the photograph, painted from the photograph. And this book, The Portrait of Grace, contains, I think it's twenty women. And each one has a portrait in there and there's a story of them in this book. And then the very first book that I'm in-- when I retired from Brown Forman in 1997, they wanted to know, what did I want to do? What did I want for a retirement present? I said, "I 25:00don't want anything. I would like to have an exhibit of my ceramics." And so, the fellow that I worked for, we arranged to go down to the Portland museum and they told them what I wanted to do and I had my pieces. So that was my very first exhibit. And from that first exhibition, Eugene Hadder (?) did two centuries (?) of women, all women, and this book has --what was it?-- It has over ten African American women. She wrote the book because there was no books-- she was a librarian I think-- but she put this book together, and there's two pages on each woman in this book. And she put this book together because when she taught classes, there was no books on women. 

WC: Wow. 

EA: Yeah. And I just came back from a ceramics conference in Kansas City and 26:00they had an exhibit of all women artists and I think it was fifty women and there was one African American woman. And then there was another group-- so there aren't that many African Americans, period. And this organization has over five thousand people, the National Ceramic Arts ______ (?) and there's less than I would say 500 African Americans in that organization. 

WC: I always kind of like to end it, is there any story you'd like to add or any fond memory that you--?

EA: I would just like to say that I've been blessed-- I'll be eighty five in August and I'm able to get up and go, make art, interact with people like you. I'm a role model, I never miss class. And I feel like that-- you're a role 27:00model-- you realize you're a role model is that I set examples for them every day. 

WC: I like that. I think that's a good place. 

EA: Okay.