Interview with Ken Clay, November 18, 2015

Wes Cunningham: This is Wes Cunningham on November 18th in Got Ya'll Call (?) with Ken Clay. Ken, can you tell me a little bit about your biographical information-- if you were born in Louisville, if not, how you ended up here?

Ken Clay: I was born in Louisville-- born in #13 College Court, which is a housing project here in the city and I grew up here and have lived here all my life. Have gone out of the area for a visit and business trips etc. and vacations, but basically, this is home for me-- Louisville, Kentucky. 

WC: Can you tell me how you first got involved in art locally? 

KC: Woah-- how far back do you want me to go with that?

WC: (laughs) As far as you're willing to.

KC: Of course-- as a youngster going to church, my brother and I sang in the 1:00children's choir, I guess you called it at that time. But my brother and I just loved to sing and we eventually formed quartets as we were growing up. So, we'd be in different quartets and would compete at different events at different venues in the community--

(plane landing loudly or some other loud background sound)

KC: That was something that we both enjoyed very very much. As I was growing up, and I'll skip over to the high school because in high school, I was in the choir and a group at Central High called the Lechanteures.

WC: Can you spell that for me?

KC: Yeah, L-e-c-h-a-n-t-e-u-r-e-s. This was a group of young men that had-- this group had been at Central for years, so it was a tradition for this group to 2:00exist. And I and my brother and a few other guys and I sang. We joined the Lechanteures. We sang classical music, we sang negro spirituals, basically. And we would perform at events at the school and out of the school-- there was a teacher by the name of Mrs. Croons, a music teacher, that directed the whole thing. And often, she would get calls from people outside of the school to bring a group out to sing and we would be that group most likely. There was also a girl's group --I can't forget this-- there was a group called the Denalles: D-e-n-a-l-l-e-s. So, these were the two top groups --one female, one male-- at Central High School. While there, I appeared in a number of presentations, the operetta. We did, Porgy and Bess-- I played some key roles in that. One thing 3:00that I always remember is Mrs. Croons, our music teacher, got Maurice _____ 

(plane)

KC: at the Kentucky Center: Maurice Barmart (?) got us to come and run us through our pages for an event that we were planning. And that was the first time I had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Barmart (?). Ironically, later on in my career, I did meet Mr. Barmart and we exchanged some information regarding that and many other kinds of things that we experienced. Um, and what else--- musically, I kind of got away from singing. But I began to get more into the production management side of doing things. So, I found myself putting events 4:00together in the community. I formed an organization --I cofounded an organization-- with a guy with the name of Clayton Duhaney (?), a very good friend of mine who lived in the Washington, D.C. area, who moved down to Louisville. I hired him at the Irving League (?)-- I was working at the Irving League at that time. We worked there for about ten years --I worked there for about ten years-- and then we kind of broke off-- formed our own organization called Renaissance, Renaissance Development Corporation. We had put together a number of different programs. One in housing, one in employment, one in economic development, and one in the arts. As we went out and tried to get support and money for these programs, ironically, the thing that really caught on was the arts. 

(car horns blaring)

KC: I know we went to Brown Forman 04:49 and they loved the arts component that 5:00we came up with. So they gave us, at that time, a significant amount of money to get things rolling. They supported us  ____ (?) we thought. So we began to do arts in the community-- in parks and community centers and things of that nature. We'd bring artists into those communities. We'd bring artists there to teach young people and expose young people to the arts. So that's kind of the way I really got moving in the direction that I proceeded. 

WC: What year was this when ya'll were forming the Renaissance?

KC: Um-- had to be in the mid-70s. Yeah, I think somewhere in the mid-70s. I'd have to go back and look at my resume to see the dates-- things begin to run together when you get older

(KC laughs)

WC: I'm sorry

KC: Go ahead

WC: Did you-- can you tell me a little bit about the positive or what kind of 6:00effect that these art programs had on some of the youth in some of the communities around there?

KC: Yeah, they had very positive effects. Under Renaissance, we formed a community dance company. There were a number of art exhibits that we coordinated and sponsored. We worked with artists such as GC Coxe, Aniyah Hamilton (?)-- to help them with putting on exhibits for them. And we did all the management and promotion and the presenting aspect of it. We brought in dance companies from Chicago. And with our company, which was named the Life Rhythm Dancers, Judith Jameson from-- who was with the ____ Company at the time-- she came into do a 7:00solo performance, and we rented out the Memorial Auditorium, and just did a big dance event, featuring all three of the companies. So, we began to get into presenting, making the arts known on a local level to people. It was more of a classic dance as opposed to what was going on within the community. So, we were exposing young people to maybe a different form of dance. So, in that respect, I think it was quite beneficial. 

WC: Did you all focus-- or was the organization mostly African American at the time and what were the communities that you all were kind of reaching out to?

KC: We dealt with mostly inner-city communities. We dealt with Park Hill, we dealt with the Smoketown area, so we dealt with inner-city communities. We did 8:00go out to Newberg on a couple of occasions. But basically, we dealt with black communities--

(plane landing loudly)

KC: --the dance company was more of an integrated company. Modern dance, type thing-- it was more of an integrated community-- that performed and gave instructions to people and youth in the community. 

WC: Can you tell me a little bit about the local art community, outside of Renaissance? I know that I spoke to Bob Douglas, G.C. Coxe (?) that were part of the Louisville Art Workshop. Did you all collaborate with them quite a bit? 

KC: Uh, the art workshop actually was a little ahead of Renaissance. I knew everybody in the art workshop. And there might have been an occasion we maybe have coordinated-- I can't be specific about any event we did. But, we certainly had a very positive, working together relationship. Like I mentioned G.C. Coxe 9:00__ (?) I remember that we put together an exhibit down at a place called The Fig Tree which is at 3rd and Broadway at the time and we have G.C.'s works all in there for an event. So, we were working --if not with the organization itself-- certainly with individual artists, a part of the art/artist workshop. 

WC: Did you see local, African American art kind of playing a role in the civil rights movement in Louisville, or the black freedom struggle that was going on at the time? Did you see art as kind of a forum to benefit African American culture?

KC: I think the arts-- black art-- I'll put it that way, nationally, served to undergird the movement. The music that came out of ___ (?) came from black 10:00artists. Bernice Ring (?) who was a good friend of mine who had a group called Sweet Honey and the Rock (?). She was a very primary person in coming up with the music that is now internationally known-- you know, the civil rights songs, et cetera. She's with a group, like I said, Sweet Honey and the Rock-- I love this group. She's no longer with them, but she was the leader of that group for years and I had brought them in on several occasions when I was at the Kentucky Center for the Arts

Yeah, the music, and the art, I think was essential, you know, to the overall black arts, black civil rights struggle. 

(plane)

KC: It's the rhythm, It provided all the things. It provided the rhythm, the soul, the motivation to keep going after being treated the way they were treated. 

WC: Did you all face any discrimination in Louisville when you all were first getting started? 

KC: No, I don't think we did, we being Renaissance ____ (?). No, we didn't. We dealt, we had a good relationship with certain corporations, certain individual funders, and a couple of foundations who gave us money because our purpose was to do good things and do them through the arts. We saw that vision way back then, that one way to reach people, one way to get people in the support, was to bring them the arts and to bring them into the arts. 

WC: Excuse me. How did you-- did your art either visual art or music or dance-- did it engage any of the issues that were facing the African American population at the time?

KC: I don't think it engaged any issues directly. But I think it was the kind of thing that touched the people who were involved in the demonstrations, just in the community in general. We'd bring in kids and teach them music and dancing and singing-- all these things are very positive things to encourage and undergird the movement. 

WC: And what kind of reactions did these young students-- did they leave with kind of a sense of pride and of invigoration after-- when you all would engage with them?

KC: Oh, most definitely, most definitely. So many of them who we were involved with have gone on to become instructors and teachers and motivators, a younger set of people. God, there were people --names-- uh, Harmina Churn (?) who came 13:00through this and was exposed to this, Blaine Hudson's (?) wife, Bonnie was one of the dancers in there. And, Mamma Ya (?) who is involved in programming with communities and young people today. They all kind of came through the Renaissance. They all kind of came through that. So, we grabbed them when they were young, they in turn have grabbed another set of young people. It's moving on, and that's the way it grows. We felt, I felt very. And we were very instrumental in-- providing the motivation, inspiration, the carrying on of --communicating with the younger generation.

WC: How aware were you of this national black arts movement and this kind of 14:00call to promote black art as a form of--

KC: We were aware that it existed. I'm not sure how connected we felt here in Louisville to the national movement. But we knew that--

(plane)

KC: --generally the arts were a key ingredient in the struggle. So, wherever there is a civil rights struggle, you knew there was a black arts involvement in some kind of way. And when you say black arts, I don't want to say it as if it's something that's very aloof because black arts takes place in black communities on the street but as boogieing or dancing or doo wopping or whatever that is-- that's a part of it. Songs that have been written to inspire people through the 15:00struggle and that goes back to slavery. It's not the same old slave songs but it has a different delivery but with pretty much the same meaning-- keeping going, keeping strong, working through, making do. You know, this kind of thing. 

WC: How important do you think this culture that came out of-- or that informed black arts-- how important was that to the African American community especially in such tumultuous times?

KC: Extremely important. I think a lot of people don't see-- have not distinguished between black arts and the civil rights struggle. Because I think they were kind of-- they worked very congenitally together in a supportive role, 16:00in an active role. When you get black artists, you have Harry Belafonte, or you have Odetta-- these are all black artists singing and marching and being a part of the whole thing too. There's that fusion that you see because the music, the art, comes with the struggle.

So, it becomes-- it became one in a sense.

WC: Were you active at all in the civil rights movement or the black freedom struggle? Would you consider yourself an activist at times?

KC: At times, yeah. Early on here, in Louisville --I think this was in 1955/'56-- I was in, I was coming out of high school-- I think it was my senior year of high school. And ___ Johnson (?) who was a professor here who taught at 17:00Central High School who taught me and taught just about every other black person--

(laughter)

KC: --coming out of high school during that time. I know he organized a sit-in down at-- on Fourth Street, at one of the _____ (?). So we went down and would sit on the, you know sit there and block people from getting seats, basically, because we weren't able to go in lawfully to do that. So, as early as that, I was involved in the struggle. 

Now ironically, I left Louisville and went to college outside of Louisville. And I think that was the year where it really geared up. So the youngsters --about a year or so younger than I-- were very much more involved. People like Ron Cunningham (?), Bill Gatewood, and many, many others, were really on the 18:00frontline there. But I was away at college doing my thing up there during that year, yeah. 

WC: Did you engage in any arts while you were away at college or even-- and when I say away, I mean throughout all your college years, even when you were studying at Bellarmine and--?

KC: I was doing some singing, I joined a fraternity. We had one heck of a good group-- my and my brother were in the same fraternity. So we were the crux to the music in that fraternity but did not really get involved, just kind of feeling my way, I didn't know whether I wanted to be a psychologist or-- you know in that first year you don't -- just struggling to find out which way I'm going-- 

But, continuing on afterwards, I got more involved in the arts. 

WC: And did your role as an activist both early on and some later, did that inform your art and how you approached it?

KC: (Coughs) Well, yeah. I knew what I liked, I knew what-- I was in a position, I think my view of the arts was expanded through the experiences that I had. Like I said, I sang classical music, I sang of course the corner doo wop. And I saw the dance, I saw the music coming together. So, I was inspired and motivated by what was around me but I also had the vision of what was ahead. To expose young people to different forms of the arts I think was very key in my development. 

WC: Earlier you said that when you were younger, you'd sing negro spirituals or 20:00other songs or anything like that-- how were they and other black artists-- received by white audiences at the time? And did you see that shift or change throughout the years?

KC: I'm not sure that I performed in front of white audiences-- it was during segregation. Mainly, I'm talking about black churches and black community centers and black communities where I was pretty active. I suppose being you know, that was 1956/55 when I was in high school.

WC: And when you first --with Renaissance-- and when you first started to perform these, the black arts, how was that received by white audiences?

KC: It was well received by those who it was exposed to, but the focus was on 21:00the black community-- the focus was on taking the music to the black community, taking the arts-- giving them the motivation to continue to grow and achieve and to motivate them further. You know, a little girl giving dance lessons to give her some more motivation to become more than it may have been envisioned that she could be. 

WC: How would you say Louisville's black art and black culture, how did you see it comparing to other cities? Did you visit any other cities and see anything that you could compare?

(plane)

KC: Well, when you look at the biggest cities particularly-- talking New York, LA (Los Angeles), San Francisco, Chicago, we weren't there, we weren't 22:00comparing. There were people here who knew where we needed to go. And it just took more time to develop that. You said you talked to Bob Douglas and I know he was involved along with myself and a few other people in putting together the first African American Heritage Weekend-- the first couple of years, we worked together on that. There was a group called the West End Players or the West Side Players, one or the other-- which was run by one guy, a guy named ____ (?) but it was down in the West End by the Shawnee area. We used to work with them to put on performances with his group of folk. So, I think all of those things kind of came together to really motivate others to continue on or to look ahead and see the value of the arts in our daily lives, I think that was a key. 

WC: Who were some of the most influential people that you interacted with? As far as Louisville's art scene/Louisville's black art scene as a whole?

KC: In Visual Arts, you got to go with G.C. Coxe, Bob Douglas, Ed Hamilton, Sam Gilliam who came here --I don't know if he went to high school here-- but he was here during that period and he-- you know Bob, Sam was a very famous artist, a guy named Ken Young-- these were the leaders in the visual arts community. Performing arts? We didn't really have a lot of strong leaders in the performing 24:00arts at that time I think but there were people who had the dance programs over here and theatre programs over there. Then we got into theatre --so Hancock (?) and uh don't want to leave her name out --can't think of her name right now-- they formed a theatre program that was --for one or two years-- was doing theatre down at the Brown Theatre-- it was called ____ at the time--

WC: Uh-huh.

KC: And that was very strong. And what they presented was African American theatre you know still holding onto what we as a people have produced. Thank goodness I see Actor's Theatre presenting works by African American playwrights today and that's kind of a thing that I want to make sure continues. 

WC: How have you continued through the years in Louisville's art scene? I know you've stayed very active, if you'd just tell me a little bit about that. 

KC: Well, after Renaissance, I was employed by the new performing arts center here, Kentucky Center for the Arts, in 1983. When they opened up, I produced the first public show that was ever presented at the Kentucky Center for the Arts. It was a gospel extravaganza. It happened I think the second day that the center was open. I had put together groups around the state of Kentucky along with a few local groups here. And I brought in a big name so we did that on a Sunday and ___ (?) we had a great turnout. And what my mission as I had defined it at 26:00the Kentucky Center-- I needed to get African Americans in those seats. And I had to do that through programming. So, I'm the programmer. I'm one of the programmers there. 

My mission was to bring in initially African Americans and later on it expanded on to more multiracial audiences, et cetera. But we were successful at that and brought in the people that we wanted to bring in et cetera. So then I started a series there, it started in 1985. I started the midnight ramble series. 

Dig this-- the midnight ramble series originally started over on Walnut Street at one of the theaters, it was the Lyric Theatre. I think it was at first the 27:00Lincoln Theatre and then it moved to the Lyric Theatre and I had the privilege, when I was young, to attend some of those events. I would go in the daytime with my brother and some of my other friends. We'd go into see the main movies-- _____ (?) movies. We'd see cartoons, the news of the day. Then they'd come out with this live stage stuff and they called it the midnight ramble. It was actual performers during the day with the young people in the audience. But it was comedians, exotic dancers, quartets, singers-- that were part of this thing called the Chitland (?) circuit that would go into different black communities around the country, particularly in the south, performing in segregated halls because there was integration going on at that time. That became known as the 28:00midnight ramble. At midnight, they would open it up for the adults, and it got a little more raunchy--

(Laughter)

KC: or that's what I'm told. But I started that series at the center for the arts and it still continues to this day. It's the only series that is still continuing. Now, it's changed a lot, it doesn't have the same flow I created. But nonetheless, they maintained the name and they do things. 

Another thing I did at the center was the arts reach program which is an educational program. It's been unbelievably successful. One summer, we were kind of slow and I said, "Well, we got to do something." So, I called a couple of musician friends I knew --one from New York particularly and another from Detroit-- they came in the summer with me and we put together this-- going around to different communities. It was Jazz, getting people interested in Jazz, 29:00et cetera. And we encountered some problems with folks who were working in the community centers who weren't in tune themselves to music or art. I thought it was pretty successful but we did acknowledge some difficulties there. Great thing about it-- we got together after that run and said, "What do we need to do to make this thing change?"--

(plane)

KC: And we came up with the fact that many of the people who worked at these community centers-- they was ignorant as children about arts and history and that type of thing. So, we started a program that began to expose and train those people that worked in the community centers. That's how arts reach began. They got so excited about it-- they would come to the meetings and we would take artists-- I'd bring artists in and put them on stage. I'd take them to Cabbage 30:00Patch, I'd take them to Parkland, just take them around the community. 

That caught on to the extent that it became not only a successful local program with the Kentucky Center but it went statewide. 

WC: Wow.

KC: And that's one of my legacies at the center is starting that program there. 

WC: And you're still there, correct?

KC: No.

WC: You're not?

KC: No, I've been away for about eight years.

WC: Oh, ok.

KC: At least eight years. I was there for twenty three years. I was one of the first staff people hired in the programming department. But, yeah, I have great and fond memories of the center-- I love that place. 

WC: Sounds like it.

KC: Yeah. It was home to me. My ___________ (?) and they gave me a going away party and they had renamed the center the K.C..

(Laughter)

KC: ________ (?) 

WC: You briefly mentioned Walnut Street and that-- could you tell me a little 31:00bit more about the culture that existed in Walnut Street in Louisville's West End?

KC: Well, Walnut Street, the black Walnut Street, ran from 6th to about 13th street --it's now Muhammad Ali Blvd-- but around 6th and 13th street, there was full of all kinds of businesses. There were three insurance companies. There were two African American banks. There were all kinds of other businesses and restaurants and entertainment spots on Walnut Street. It was the place to be for Louisville's black community. All the property was not owned by blacks, but some-- most of it, was managed it seemed by blacks. It became known as the 32:00entertainment strip for Louisville. If you went on Walnut Street on a Friday/Saturday night, there'd be music everywhere coming out of the clubs, people on the street walking, et cetera. At Derby time, it was called Cadillac row. Because you'd see all the people that came in for Derby. They'd be riding up and down Walnut street going into the clubs, dressed to the nines, just having fun. Frankie Maxwell was a manager of the biggest club there called Top Hat. When I say big, I don't mean in size, but it was just the number one spot. ____ (?) were always at the door greeting people and making sure no kids came in. You had to be up to a certain age and stuff like that.

I was fortunate enough to know Frankie when I put together the midnight rambler series at the Kentucky Center, had her on the committee. She has done a recording too, out here at the University of Louisville-- I have a copy of it. It's a little something wrong with the recording so you can't hear everything but that was the era of black business, et cetera there.

Now, Walnut Street was known primarily for entertainment, et cetera but it also had a lot of other things going for it. It was the Mecca of black Louisville-- you knew about Walnut Street-- Walnut Street kind of beckoned you in some way. There were a lot of business deals that went down on Walnut Street. There were a lot of doctors, accountants, dentists-- their offices were all on Walnut Street. 34:00It was the place to come even if you needed to go to the dentist. More than likely, your dentist was located on Walnut Street, your doctor was in one of those buildings up on Walnut Street. It was just a fantastic era. I call it an era -- a place and an era-- It was a period of time when black people felt empowered here in Louisville. And a lot of political things went down on Walnut Street that impacted the entire community. It gave us hope and a sense of ownership and it did a lot of things.

When it went under, when urban renewal came through here, it just killed everything. Not only tore the buildings down, it just separated the people. The 35:00people who used to come together every weekend. The people who worked on Walnut Street, the people who communicated regularly. Boom! They were gone and there was no place for them to gather. They were scattered in different locations in the community so I think that was the greatest horror that urban renewal did. In addition, it came in and just tore buildings down, but _____ (?) they left a few buildings but I didn't see the planning of it because they tore down some magnificent structures. 

WC: Uh-huh.

KC: There was some that needed to be torn down in the alleys and so forth that didn't have indoor toilets and things like that back in that day. But I think the government could have been more organized in terms of what it was tearing down rather than saying We're just going to cut this block out-- and that's what happened. 

WC: Where did the black culture really go after urban renewal, where did the cultural center end up?

KC: If I had to pick a spot, I'd say down around 28th and Greenwood. 

I opened up at 28th and Greenwood in '67 a thing I called The Corner of Jazz-- it was like a place where people could come and gather. I got this idea from a friend of mine who moved to Chicago-- he was from Louisville, and I went to visit him. This was the real beginning of a real appreciation for Africa. What we had in The Corner of Jazz were African clothing, furnishings. But I had Jazz 37:00music, African American books. We had all kinds of things that would be attractive to people's heads were now set into an appreciation of Africa and black culture here.  So, I would have music, for example --and I got this-- I had a friend that I had worked with. Incidentally, at that time, I was working with the community action agency which was the war on poverty. And I had a friend that I had met through that whose father owned a record distributing company in New York. And all my music came through them. Man, what a variety of music, particularly the jazz music, that nobody in Louisville was selling, nobody was selling. It was off the hooks. I used to have guys come in-- they'd 38:00come in, they'd buy a record, buy a book, and they would come back and discuss it. It became more than just a spiritual outlet, it became --you know, synergy. A lot of the young Turks --as I called them-- Dr. Blaine Hudson incidentally was one of those young Turks--

(laughter)

KC: --that discovered my building and business and would buy and discuss. It was a place where you could come and talk to people about the movement, what the panthers were doing. Talk about all the things that were going on in black America.

And then that fateful day, of course, where they had a riot. We'll call it the riot. I was there, inside, when the riot went down. I was with my lady who became my wife-- we were boyfriend and girlfriend at that time-- and she was 39:00working and running things just perfectly. People were coming into the store, it was fantastic. Because they had this demonstration outside-- people were going to be speaking and everything. Man, there were people who had never been to that corner, came in. So this was a big business day for me. And they came, naturally, right into my shop. They were buying all kinds of things, we were selling out of stuff. And everything was perfect until that time things happened. All the speakers had just about finished and they were actually going away and were going home, getting out of the area.

And that's when a policeman drove through the crowd-- it just didn't make any sense at all. Now, what had happened was there was a young man-- he was on top of my roof. And I knew him because he lived in _____ (?) which is where I was 40:00living at the time and I knew his mother. But he was on the roof and I'm sure-- I didn't see him do it, but I'm sure-- this little boy named Jimmy was the one that threw a bottle off the roof and made that pow noise and that's when the police shhhhhhwwww --you know-- It was interesting. 

Unfortunately, after that went down, or that night after things kind of slowed down that night, Chief Hyde who was a police --the head of the police department-- he came in by himself. And I pulled him in the background because I didn't want anything to happen to him, he was down in my building. We talked et cetera, and he was so bothered by the fact that something happened because he had a great relationship with a lot of people, a lot of leaders in the black 41:00community. He came in and we talked and things went on. But, next day, they brought in the state troopers, county troopers and it was frozen down there, you know? I was ____ (?) scared of them, shocked. The next day, I came over just to see, to check on my place. Because there was some worry about people breaking into buildings-- and that did happen, a riot kind of thing.

It happened further down on ____ rather than Greenwood. There was some young Turks that told me, "Ken, you don't have to worry about anything. We're going to stand here. We're going to protect this place, this is ours." This is what they 42:00say. And, they stood there and I don't know if I have pictures of this or not but they-- the national guard were there with their guns and knives and their guns. And I saw these younger guys talking to them in their face and touching their guns and everything. The national guard, they couldn't move. And there was a brother in the national guard and tears were just coming down his eyes. He hated to be there, but that's the way it is. It was interesting. 

WC: Was there a lot of damage done to The Corner of Jazz?

KC: No damage done to The Corner of Jazz. No siree, Nobody touched the Corner of Jazz. Earlier, before the riots, the only incident we had down there-- one morning, we came down to work and somebody had come down the back, where the air conditioning was. They took the air conditioning out of the wall. They came in 43:00and stole some stuff. But, you know, an ironic thing happened-- we put out the word as people came in that we'd been robbed, et cetera, et cetera and things began to reappear. They would bring back albums that they had stolen, some books-- began to come back. And that, I think, is a testament to the significance that that building, that business was to that community-- to the people who came in there and said "Oh my god, I'm going out of here, I'm going to find stuff. I see people today I know was one of the robbers," you know what I mean?

WC: Un-huh.

KC: "I'd seen them today and I say, 'Hey, what's going on?' they don't know I know." It was amazing, I think. That community really responded in a very 44:00positive way to see that we got our stuff back and we continued on. But after the riots, there was no business at all-- it was a ghost town. Nobody came in ______ (?) and if you go down there today, it hasn't improved that much at all. 

WC: You mentioned that the Corner of Jazz was kind of a place for black intellectuals to meet and join in this conversation --national struggle-- and really --I know from readings and things-- that that was one of the things that was promoted throughout the black freedom struggle. That you had to create this kind of intellectual group to-- people wanted to educate themselves and African American culture and everything. Was there a place that people met after the 45:00uprising? If the Corner of Jazz wasn't there, where did people go to discuss these issues? 

KC: I don't think there was a place. You know, everybody would say, "Let's go here now and begin to talk." If there was a place, it may be a place like a Joe's Pawn Room which was over on Jefferson Street or Broadway, Jefferson Street, but it didn't have the same kind of environment. People may have gotten together to talk about certain things, but they couldn't--

(plane)

--in this, along the African-- and music and intellectual and educational things. The motivational kind of environment, I think, that was present at the Corner of Jazz, I don't think that existed too many places. In addition, it was 46:00after the demise of Walnut Street, so there weren't a whole lot of places people really gathered because it used to be before that, there were places on Walnut Street and Chestnut Street. There used to be a place right across from Chestnut Street YMCA that I know artists used to gather. We'd bring our books, we'd bring our paintings, and we'd just sit and talk and exchange and socialize.

WC: Was that the Brown Derby?

KC: Yeah.

WC: Dr. Douglas.

KC: Yeah, yeah. You'd hear from Bob about that.

(KC laughs)

WC: Did you ever participate in visual arts at all? I don't know if I touched on that. 

KC: Not as a visual artist, only as a promoter/producer-- someone who loved it, purchased it. 

WC: One thing I've noticed is that there's kind of a difference when speaking of visual arts and of performing arts as well of a black artist-- were creating and 47:00promoting kind of the African American culture as opposed to other people who were kind of more afro-centric with their art and focused on African heritage. Did you see a lot of that overlap throughout both visual arts and performance art?

KC: Oh yeah. I think because of the movement/the times, people reflected in their work what was going on society. And during the --I think you saw-- during the period of the civil rights and struggle and particularly the more-- you know, you talk about people like Stokely, Malcom, Rap Brown, et cetera, it was a 48:00different kind of thing that was going on as opposed to what Martin Luther King was doing. It was a more aggressive, in your face kind of thing that began. Art began to take on that kind of feeling of trying to get it out. Whereas with-- and there was this division/divisiveness --maybe that's not the right word-- but there was the more moderate approach to the civil rights struggle and then there was the more aggressive approach.

When I opened the Corner of Jazz, before it opened --and people were scared to death-- I had large posters of people like Rap Brown. I had Stokely Carmichael, I had Malcom X, Muhammad Ali. And when you rode down 28th street, all you saw in 49:00those windows were these pictures-- so folks didn't know what was getting ready to happen in there--

(WC laughs)

KC: --It scared people to death. So of course --and I'm sure the police became aware that this may be a place where something might happen. But on the contrary, when we opened up, we were welcomed in the community. The University of Louisville --I can't think of his name-- had a professor here who had traveled a lot and --particularly in Africa and taking students-- and he brought--

(plane)

--his students down to the Corner of Jazz on a fairly regular basis to see their African connection and just to talk with us and to the people there and expose those kids to some things that were going on. I think a lot of them really benefited from that. So, we were supportive of all things, not all things, but 50:00things African and African American, but we weren't opposed to anything because some of our best customers came from different ethnic backgrounds.

WC: Throughout the years, how have you seen the black arts in Louisville grow and how do you see it today? Do you think people still put a lot of emphasis --I know you said that that was one of the things you focused on at the Kentucky Center-- was bringing in African American artists and-- do you still see a call in Louisville of people wanting to engage African American art?

KC: Yeah, I think that we do but it's not as strong as it used to be and I think there's been a merging of a love for the arts. For example, I now ___ (?) the 51:00world fest for the city of Louisville --my tenth year-- producing, identifying all the artists and I love it, I love it. What's going on, I think, worldwide, is this merging of cultures and love it. I bring in a group that has in its membership, a musician from Africa, from Asia, from Ireland, just the mix. Because the music is the fusion, it's reflecting world togetherness. It's bringing the different cultures together-- and that's one thing about the arts, that's one thing about music that is going to lead us out of this darkness I think. Musicians get along perfectly, regardless of where they come from. They can communicate, they can get along wonderfully. 

As the sign (?) I'm talking to a group of musicians now, putting together an 52:00exhibit on African American musicians in Louisville. And I talked to a couple of them about, "What was it like between white and African American musicians?" and the guy said, "We never had a problem. We always talk, white and black and we're great friends, man, great friends." So, it may take that kind of thing to bring people together-- understanding of one another's culture and an appreciation for it. 

WC: I agree and I think that's all the questions I had.