Interview with Carol Mattingly, January 23, 2020

Cassandra: (unclear -setting up mic) So we already kind of went over the how are you today portion, um so do you mind if I just jump in with questions about the writing center?

Carol: No, please,

CAS: Okay, um how did you get started as the writing center director?

CAR: You know I graduated from UofL, and then I went to LSU and I was there, had been there 8 years and I didn't even know there was an opening. Debra Jornet called me and said "did you see this? you should apply." So I did because this was home. I liked it at LSU, but you know. So um I applied, and did the interview, and they hired me.

CAS: Okay and so when you were here as a PhD student, did you work in the writing center? The previous writing center?

CAR: No, because we didn't really have a writing center before. They called it a writing center, but... it was in the basement of Humanities [building]. They did basic writing, and they offered help to their students, and they called it a "writing center," but it wasn't university wide, and it wasn't well supported. It was very different.

CAS: Okay okay, and other than it being home here in Louisville, what else drew you to coming back and starting the writing center?

CAR: Well, my heart's at UofL, I mean you know? This is my hometown, I went to school here. Um Frankly, that's that's what. I started learning. I mean my PhD is in Rhetoric and Composition, but writing centers had not been my focus, so I did everything I could to get up to speed.

CAS: Okay. (personal aside) So what did Debra tell you when she called you? Did she kind of pitch the position at all?

CAR: No no. She was my dissertation director

CAS: Oh, okay

CAR: And I knew her well. and she called me and said... I don't remember if she said "why haven't you applied?" She said I should have gotten a letter inviting me to apply, and I did not. So uh when she called it was all new to me, and she said "I just think you ought to apply for this."

CAS: Okay. And so you didn't have a background in writing center work prior?

CAR: No we didn't do writing center work here, except you know. I mean I was 3:00Comp/Rhet and of course I had studied tutoring you know, but as far as writing centers, that uh area, I had not focused on.

CAS: Okay. Okay so you applied and got the position. What, do you remember the dates or the years? What was the timeline?

CAR: Yes. I came back in 2000, so um I made a couple of trips up here to help with the design.

CAS: Okay, can you talk about those a little bit?

CAR: Well I can't remember his name, there was this great man over in design who was really really helpful. And he would talk to me and listen about what I thought students would need and... make suggestions, and it was kind of hard to 4:00figure out because the writing center was lovely and overlooked. Well when I came they gave me a choice of three spaces. One was on the 4th floor. One was on the 3rd floor, and I think one was on the first floor as you come in the door, but it was a very small space. And the 4th floor... The third floor overlooked the quad. And I thought that made a statement and that said something about writing centers. So I chose that, but there were always, you know we didn't have laptops then. And there were problems. It was great but there were problems trying to get it situated, so it would be comfortable for students, but we could plug in the computers, and you know we had those large desktops then. But so we ended up with all the computers against the wall, but um we were very happy with 5:00it. They let us choose fabric and flooring, and um they were really good about all of it, very helpful. Um but it was kind of problematic because I was trying to do a lot of it from afar. And then when I came here, I thought the writing center would be finished, but it wasn't. So the first semester I taught the writing center practicum, which I had worked really hard to do, but it was difficult because we didn't have a writing center yet. Eventually what I would do and what I wanted to do was let them tape themselves and to tape each other and watch it and but we didn't have students to practice on, laughs, so that was 6:00hard. And I can't remember his name, there was a young man named Tim, and I can't think of his last name. And he had worked in Basic Writing, down in the basement. So he had done writing center tutorials with some of their students, so um so I asked him to do mock interviews, but it still, you know wasn't the same, It got much easier once we actually had students and the writing center was up and going

CAS: When did that happen?

CAR: I think it happened in January. It wasn't a long time, and they had thought they'd have the writing center completed when I got here, but they didn't. So um yeah. I'm pretty sure January we had, but by then we'd already had the practicum

CAS: Right

CAR: You know, and I was still in the writing center, the students were there, we worked together, but it got a lot better after we um had the practicum.... a working writing center.

CAS: So how many graduate students did you have that first semester? About?

CAR: I think 10 masters students, and I have to think about this, because I kept getting graduate students. I think I got two graduate students, PhD students, at first, but then when they moved WR over there, they just let us know they were gonna move it over, and there were four graduate students who came with that, for ten hours. And then when I started the Writing Centers Research Project, 8:00they gave me two more, which was a lot, you know

CAS: When you said they "moved WR over there," I don't know anything about that, so tell me about that.

CAR: We had Writing Across the Curriculum here, and Geoff Cross, at the time I came back was in charge of Writing Across the Curriculum. Um and they did workshops for faculty and workshops for students, um what else did they do? They were also responsible for transfer credits, to decide if a credit in writing, and I think English broadly, could transfer and be acceptable. So they did a lot of that. So um they decided, I don't think I'd been here at year, when they 9:00decided that since the writing center was there, it made sense for WR to be there too. So they just transferred that to us.

CAS: Okay, well since we're on that topic, what did you all do with Writing Across the Curriculum in the writing center?

CAR: We did a lot of workshops for faculty and students. Um we did the transfer credit. That's mainly what we did. Um, I'm trying to remember when we got involved with Gale Rhodes. Gale Rhodes... I don't know if she was, she was, she was on Shelby Campus... and I think she worked with REACH too. I can't remember. She was uh interested in what we did and she um I can't remember exactly what 10:00she did. But she wanted us to do workshops for her, she was very supportive. We did the workshops, she would bring in food for people uh so we got involved with a lot of people across campus, depending on who was interested, who asked and who listened to us.

CAS: Okay, I'm assuming Gale was bringing in faculty, because she works with faculty development now in the Delphi Canter

CAR: Yes, they were faculty, except she was also, gosh it's been a long time. I think she was also working with distant learning. And she wanted us to get involved with that, which was really interesting because um I think we may have done it anyway, but I think that spurred us to start doing some um

CAS: Virtuals?

CAR: Tutorials on the computer, and that evolved. We did it different ways as the technology got better and I'd forgotten about that, but she probably helped to encourage that. And of course I had students who were much better at that than I, who were interested. And they I think we had, actually, we had articles come out on that, we may have had somebody do a dissertation on that.

CAS: Mmm that sounds familiar. I've looked at all the titles of all the dissertations

CAR: JoAnn Griffin. So, you know, it was good. Students learned a lot and it was a hard process because it was new and the technology wasn't very good and, but, they were good at changing as the technology changed, were moving along.

CAS: I can't imagine distance learning in the year 2000. It still feels like 12:00it's so new right now.

CAR: It was probably 2002 or 2003. And it was nothing like it is now.

CAS: Yeah it's huge. I might circle back to the virtual writing center a little later. Um so when you were involved in the planning process and coming up here, that was in the spring and summer before the fall that you started?

CAR: Yes. Well, I yes. yes. I wanna go back because something I probably left. And I hate I can't think of these names. There was a man who worked with the designer I was talking about. I'm so sorry I can't remember their names because I was really grateful to them. And I wanted something to recognize the writing 13:00center, and he did that wonderful logo that I love, that you all have in front now. And I think you only kept part of it? But it was, you know. And we worked on that a long time because his idea was to do pen and ink. His idea was more literature, and I wanted it to say "writing." And he worked really hard on that, and I thought he did a really good job. I just can't remember his name.

CAS: The person who did the sculpture, it's up there next to it.

CAR: His name?

CAS: Yeah, Bronwyn had to track him down whenever we moved it down here. yeah, so you can look. I think it might be Geoffrey.

CAR: That sounds right.

CAS: So um we're glad we got to keep that here, although we bump into it a lot. it's behind the desk.

CAR: You bump into it?

CAS: Well it's right behind the desk when you're working at the desk.

CAR: Did you see, did you know where it was before?

CAS: Yeah I was an MA student when we were upstairs with Dr. Rosner, her last year. Um okay. So the first semester you were here, you weren't open for 14:00appointment or students weren't coming in. So what was it like on the first day?

CAR: Slow. It was okay; it was slow. It took awhile to build up, and I had all of these graduate students, laughs, waiting for appointments, and it was pretty slow. But I was saying one of the best things the writing center did was for our graduate students, because they became a community in there. Because we had a room for them when they were not um consulting with students. And they could share ideas about what was going on in class. They could share ideas on their uh tutorials. Um and I think they did a lot of bonding, but more than anything, I think it was support for them as they were taking classes and trying to do writing center studies. Uh it was it was phenomenal support. Do you find that now?

CAS: Yeah I was gonna say, that's just continued on through the years. It's just a hallmark of this writing center.

CAR: Yeah, it's great.

CAS: Ah okay. What were your primary responsibilities at first? And did those changes as the years went on?

CAR: Well yes. At first we only had had the writing center, and I was teaching. I taught the practicum, and then I taught whatever else I was teaching. And then I think it was within the year or maybe the next year we took on Writing Across the Curriculum. Are you all not doing that now? I wonder who does that, Maybe REACH?

CAS: Nobody.

CAR: And then John Hale decided to give me money, and I couldn't pass it up, to do the writing-- we started the research project. Um and so I kept getting added 16:00things. As far as the writing center, uh we went into classes and talked to students, probably the same things you do now. Um I have a funny story that-- about the writing center. This is 2000-- this is early on. And when I was a graduate student, we were all poor. So we got John Conti coffee, so we had coffee and John Contii delivered the pods or whatever, to offer to the students. And they weren't interested, because they wanted latte from Starbucks. And that just astounded me, that students who I thought of as struggling, and I think a lot of them were, weren't very weren't interested in that coffee.

CAS: That hasn't changed either. You're talking about the graduate students?

CAR: We offered it to everybody. They weren't interested. It is a very different world from when I was in school.

CAS: Yeah. Okay. Um so when you took on Writing Across the Curriculum, you didn't get any additional course release for that, you just got the grad students,

CAR: Right

CAS: So you were on a 2-2 just like Bronwyn is and you had a course release for the writing center?

CAR: I th-- yes. Uh but the practicum, we started in early. It never felt like a 2-2 because I got a course release, I got a course release for doing the writing center and then the practicum just seemed like part of the writing center, and that counted as a course.

CAS: Right, right

CAR: When you said that, it just didn't feel the same.

CAS: Yeah. So you started the practicum early? In the summer?

CAR: Yes.

CAS: In the summer?

CAR: No, we didn't, but I asked them to come in for orientation about 10 days. I can't remember, maybe a week ahead of time. Um so that we could, I mean they were gonna start. I don't remember how early we started. But I wanted them in there and acculturated before students started coming. It wasn't, it was probably only a week to 10 days because I did have what we did then is the... doctoral students did the consulting with students so they could observe, so it wasn't especially a problem, but I wanted them in and acculturated kind of before we start.

CAS: That's similar to what we do, although we do the Thursday before classes start, but not a week, but we don't have as many PhD students now.

CAR: And we may have, I can't.

CAS: Well a lot of what we do is based on your model. I know things have been 19:00changed and tweaked and obviously it's in a different place, but there's definitely a legacy--

CAR: (unclear overlap)

CAS: Okay. So the next question is about the structure of the program at the time, so I know that you were the director, and you had MA students, about 10 of them, and PhD students, and you kind of got PhD students added for WAC, and the writing center research project, who were the other staff?

CAR: Ruth Miller, who had been in Basic Writing, was the Associate Director. Um, she helped a lot with the transfer credits. She was also teaching a course that she did for extra money. So and then Vernon Johnson and I think he's dead now. I think he was killed in an accident. Vernon Johnson was our Jeanene, our receptionist.

CAS: The Robin position, okay. And did you have federal work study students?

CAR: No. No. I tried it one time to get uh something on the model of Brown, gosh Brown model, that they used at um the University of Wisconsin Madison and Brown, where uh I can't remember exactly how, where um students were paid and I can't remember all the details about it now. And I remember Dale acted very interested, but when we drew up the details, he decided it was too expensive. So 21:00we never did that. We did have money in the budget to keep a few people in the summer. So we stayed open year round, but I've forgotten about-- we did try to get that model, but uh I think what that did was you took students, not just English students, from different disciplines and they got really up to speed of the conventions in their discipline, so that you had people targeted to different disciplines. And we actually did a trial of this, kind of. And they would go, actually go into the classroom with those teachers. So they were aware 22:00of what was going on and so that they would really be up to speed when students came in. So we kind of did that for a while, but it just uh it was too expensive.

CAS: And these were undergraduates?

CAR: Mhm

CAS: Okay I never knew that. So obviously the writing center did consultations, and you said they did WAC presentations, like faculty development. What are there any other activities, other than tutoring or the workshops, that the writing center did?

CAR: (pauses) I'm sure. I'm sure there was a lot of activity. I'm not thinking of specifics. You know, lots was going on. A lot of times faculty would come in, 23:00especially in Engineering. They were wonderful because they really wanted help with their students, and sometimes faculty would come in from those disciplines to talk to us briefly about their expectations and --

CAS:To talk to you and the tutors? The consultants?

CAR: Mhm. Not long term, they would just come in. So there was a lot of activity going on all the time. It's hard for me to remember all there was. I felt like the Provost's office really supported us and helped us get the word out. And supported us in a lot of ways. And that really helped it get going. So there was a lot of activity there. Faculty was there. Students learned more and more there. And it was an inviting place. That made a big difference.

CAS: How do you think they got the word out?

CAR: To faculty? Um well oftentimes I would go to faculty meetings, if they would let me. And talk to faculty about what we can do. You know the Provost disseminates information too. When we first opened we had reception. And people could come and see and talk about what the writing center was about. So all those things helped. Not all faculty were interested in having me come into their meetings, but some were. And once you get enough people, word of mouth makes a big difference. So.

CAS: Mhm ok

CAR: I just felt like we had a lot of support

CAS: Who was the Provost? Do you remember?

CAR: Carol Garrison I think at the time. Wait a minute, she may have been gone. Uh.

CAS: Testing your memory

CAR: She left right after we got here.

CAS: So tell me a little bit more about how the training worked. And you can talk about the practicum class, but maybe other training you did beyond the practicum, like having the Engineering professors come in?

CAR: Do you want me to talk about the structure of the practicum.

CAS: Sure.

CAR: Um because that was the main thing. We had a whole semester with students in the writing center ten hours a week and taking the practicum um they may have been in there long--I'm so embarrassed I can't remember all of this. But we did a lot of things. Like we had-- there was good writing center literature out there by that time, for them to deal with. Uh and I created, what did I call 26:00those? I created examples of things that might come up. Because personally from my experience I think I work much better if I know what to expect, and if I'm caught off guard I don't always react well. So I would create what I called "scenarios," and we would play those out in the practicum, problem-situations. So if uh something really difficult came up at least there was some kind of context there. We did a lot of that. We did um, we taped, I hated doing that to them because I hate when it was done to me, but we did. We taped them, when they were having a conference and then they watched it and I watched it, and we 27:00talked about it. And--

CAR: Bronwyn still does that

CAR: And you know what I found out? I found, because I always said to them "you don't have to know everything. If you don't know something, you've got all these people that you can come and ask." And the women would do that. And almost always the men would act like they knew and give an answer and sometimes it was wrong. So we had a lot of discussion about gender, because you've also that that dynamic going on when one's a young woman, and he's a young man, no matter how it goes, you know. But I found it was hard for the young men, especially if they were working with a woman, to admit they didn't know something, and they would give an answer and um if I caught them on it, they would admit it, and they'd say "well you know I felt like I had to." Um what else did I learn from taping? 28:00Well you know a lot as you know, from looking at those tapes. It's not always students at their best, because they're nervous, but you can get an idea. We did a lot of discussions. We also had meals. And I think this was their idea. I hated night classes, but when I first started, they had us scheduled 7-10 [pm], our writing center class. And I think it was Michelle Bachelor, I can't remember. Some of the graduate students suggested "why don't we bring food?" And I think I brought in some snacks, but I mean they brought in meals. CrocPot. And that makes a difference too. I mean just sets a tone and um. I forgot about that.

CAS: The department's doing away with the 7-10 [pm] classes.

CAR: Thank God. I hated it when I was a student. I hated it as a teacher. And I asked when I came back. I said "please." And they said "No, we have to do this. Students want it," is what they said. And I kept saying "Students don't want it." I'm glad they're doing away with it. It's awful.

CAS: There was something that triggered a question.

CAR: I talk too much--

CAS: Oh did the PhD students take the class too?

CAR: They helped teach the class.

CAS: ok that's how it is now. I'm trying not to make assumptions

CAR: They didn't at first. But as we went on, they were really good, for example, I can still remember who did what. Like AnnMarie Pedersen something and JoAnn Griffin did the technology and they knew more about some things than I 30:00did, thankfully. And so they would take half an hour of the practicum and teach, and then it was wonderful because then they're in the writing center with the MA students, and a question comes up. They know who to go to. So it was great.

CAS: Okay yeah. Do you remember any of the key articles or scholarship or theory that you used in the practicum?

CAR: Absolutely, but I don't know if I could pull it up. There were several books I used, and it changed over time. One of them was Paula Gillespie's um do you remember the name of that?

CAS: All I know is Lerner and Gillespie have the Longman Guide. It was the 31:00something guide.

CAR: It was probably that. I can't rem-- there were three fairly decent writing center texts at the time that did kind of different things, and I think I used two parts of two of those. And then did a lot of articles too. There were a lot of good articles. And a lot of good things to discuss about when people would write up (pauses) tutorials. And publish it. It, they were often good to talk about things like gender or talk about what if this happens, or--

CAS: okay. In terms of you working with the consultants as a mentor/teacher, do you remember what challenges they faced? What their goals were?

CAR: Ah. Which first challenges or goals?

CAS: Start with challenges?

CAR: Are we talking doctoral students or masters students?

CAS: Either both?

CAR: It may not matter. I can remember incidents. When this beautiful wonderful young woman, and she was Asian, I think. And she came to the writing center, and I'm not gonna name names on this, but she had a consultation with one of the PhD students, and she came to me later, and she was really upset. She felt that this consultant-- oh gosh I could tell you a million of these. She felt that consultant had talked down to her or done something racial. And I knew this person wouldn't have done it. But I had a student who believed it, so um that 33:00was kind of, and thank God I knew the student well. Um just said, I understand how you're feeling, I don't think this person would have done that intentionally, blah blah. So you know there were things like that um do you want specific cases, I can give you nightmare specific cases?

CAS: No no not. I'm just thinking about um things that the tutors struggled with in tutoring, like I know our tutors struggle to have the session go the full time. We have 50 minute sessions. So they have trouble like engaging the student the entire time and thinking of questions to ask and things like that. So what did the con, did your consultants struggle with things like that?

CAR: I never insisted they use the whole time.

CAS: We don't insist it either, just encourage them.

CAR: I don't think they-- I don't remember that as being a problem. It may have 34:00been. But I don't remember that being a problem. Um I think they struggled sometimes when a student brought in a paper that was almost impossible to read because it was covered with red. And of course we found that appealing, but you can't say that to a student, so then you're trying to talk with a student and talk about their writing and help them with their confidence about writing. And you've got this bleeding paper over here. That was a problem. What other problems? It's always a little bit of a problem because when you're working with graduate students. I'm smiling because one of our consultants married one of our somebody she was consulting.

CAS: laughs I've never heard of that

CAR: They were both mature. It was okay, but I had no clue until they invited me 35:00to the wedding.

CAS: Laughs

CAR: Always a little bit of a discipline-specific problem when you're trying to deal with a dissertation in Engineering or in a field, and we worked on that a lot, and I think they did a pretty good job, but that's hard, you know. Um what else did they have trouble with? (pauses) Those are what comes to mind.

CAS: Well tell me a little bit about the graduate students that you worked with because I feel like the type of graduate students, it may have changed now the graduate students that we work with

CAR: It may have. A lot of my-- I was very very fortunate. I had a lot of very 36:00mature doctoral students who had been out in the world for awhile, some who had been teaching for years. I mean that's a dream when they come in. First of all, they're mature enough. They have the confidence enough, and they've experienced enough to know usually how to deal with students. They've got a background. So I had quite a bit of that. The MA students were generally younger. I'm gonna tell you about one, though, and you can stop me if you don't want to hear this. We had one student who came, I probably shouldn't, who was a lawyer, came in as an 37:00MA student. That created a real problem. He was angry that he had to do this because he was a lawyer. He shouldn't have to be tutoring people. Um he became very angry. It became really really difficult, and um it got so bad that, who was chair then? Dennis Hall maybe. During writing center sessions we had campus police come and stay outside the door because he threatened me and some others so many times. And they wanted to take him out, but they were told they can't. And he filed suits against us. Nothing ever came to anything, but it took up a huge amount of time because we had to document everything. So

CAS: So he had to stay?

CAR: They, as long as wanted, they let him stay.

CAS: That's my nightmare.

CAR: It was a nightmare. We were actually afraid, really. Well. He, I don't know if I should say, he clearly was unstable, you know? I think he was going through a divorce. He moved after that, and he-- there would be a shooting somewhere and he would say things about Dale Billingsley and Hall and me: "We better take notice of this happening." It was, it was horrible. And had, I had, it took up a huge amount of time because, all three of us then, had to document and give all this information to, and I can't remember his name, and he was in archives at 39:00the time, who dealt with that. So I say it was wonderful to have these mature um doctoral students or graduate students, but sometimes it could be a problem if they've resented being told to do anything because they knew more. But that was rare. Most of them were wonderful.

CAS: I guess I just assumed that if someone was problematic, there's a process for them being... cut out at some point

CAR: You would think so. I know Dennis tried to get him removed, and maybe Dale too. And they were told that. because he had signed a contract to, I can't remember all the specifics, but because there was this agreement, he was you know, he was getting an assistantship and there was this agreement. Eventually they worked it out, so I think of all my problems now. We had some really major 40:00problems and that's sad that I'm thinking about that because overall you know we had great people.

CAS: Do, which populations of students that came to the writing center do you remember? You mentioned dissertations, so I'm assuming graduate students were coming?

CAR: We had quite a few, which is one of the really good things about having doctoral students in the writing center, both in the confidence that the other doctoral student has and the background, and so we had a lot of dissertations from Criminal Justice, from Engineering, some from Education, you know. The others we had-- got a lot of students from Comp classes because their teachers 41:00would either suggest or sometimes require them to come, which we did not, we did not suggest that they require them to come, but some did occasionally, but they all you know um told them about us. and then just across campus, you know. We had a lot of students.

CAS: Okay. Did the basic writing program go away, when you started?

CAR: Yes. And that's why they transferred Ruth Miller over.

CAS: Okay. Did you ever tutor students?

CAR: In the writing center? Yeah.

CAS: Okay. What was that like?

CAR: Oh gosh. I taught so many years by then that it uh it was okay.

CAS: It was okay?

CAR: And our students are nice.

CAS: They are.

CAR: You know? So yeah. It was okay.

CAS: Under which circumstances would you tutor? I'm assuming you weren't regularly tutoring.

CAR: I wasn't, you're right. Um hm, I don't remember. I think just if somebody came in and we didn't have anybody available, or if somebody was uncomfortable for some reason, then I would step in. I did not do it a huge amount of time. But you know it's not that different from teaching Comp and working with a student and directing dissertations, so I forgot about it. It just seemed natural.

CAS: Okay. Do you remember what types of issues that students came in with? Like 43:00what writing questions did they have? What point in the writing process did they come in?

CAR: Well composition students would usually come in when they had waited way too late to come in. They would come in with a really hole-y draft, oftentimes not always. And I would say that got better as students got used, you know as they were repeaters, they would come more often too. Um, I don't know I guess just when they were struggling and wanted help. Oftentimes they had trouble focusing or making a clear argument, even though they knew it. So it helped to have an audience. You know we always have them read their paper. I don't know if you all do this.

CAS: Yep

CAR: and oftentimes in reading it they would catch their own inconsistencies or 44:00where, but other than that I think they just came when they felt that they needed feedback.

CAS: That reminded me of a question, when you talked about the PhD students, did the people that came in with dissertations, did they come in regularly? Were they coming in at the end?

CAR: Yes, they usually came in regularly, and oftentimes in engineering they were not native speakers. Or English was not their first language. And so of course that would create some problems and sometimes the problems were not as great as they thought they were. But they needed-- they wanted that reassurance and especially in Electrical Engineering, this one I remember. They really said "you need to go to the writing center." And they came, you know.

CAS: Maybe you've already answered this, but I'm gonna go ahead and ask it. What 45:00did you think the writing center did effectively in terms of teaching writing at the time?

CAR: I think, I don't wanna be over general here. I think it helped everybody. I think students, we had a lot of students, and I was one of those when I went to college. I didn't know how to write. Nobody made me write. We had a lot of students who really needed support for a while. We had a lot of students who just wanted to be-- I hate I can't remember these names, we had a basketball player who was good, but was not gonna be great. And he came in regularly, because when he graduated he wanted to make sure he was ready to get the job he wanted. So we had a lot of people like that, but we had some people who came in when they were struggling. Um, as I've said, I think it helped out graduate 46:00students immensely. Both in improving their writing but also preparing them to teach because they were gonna be in-- the reason that got set up the way it did (mumbles, unclear). What happened is we kept violating the rules of the Southern Association. And finally, because Southern Association said, "you cannot put an inexperienced MA student in the classroom." And UofL kept doing it and getting a waiver. And they finally clamped down and said "You can't do this anymore." So the whole idea the reason I got the 10 MA students was they could spend a year 47:00in the writing center and then go on to the classroom, and let's stop and think about that. They were much better teachers when they went into the classroom. So it was really beneficial in that way too. And the doctoral students were all in Rhetoric and Composition, so they had readers there for, they would read for one another. All the graduate students did. that. They learned an immense amount from each other and we had some articles come out of that.

CAS: Oh really? I would like to read them.

CAR: In fact, one of them won the, whatever the award is they give, the writing center journal gives an award. One of them won that one year.

CAS: I will have to try to find that.

CAR: I can tell you who they were. The writers were JoAnn Griffin, Carolyn 48:00Skinner, Anne Marie Pederson uh Dan, Dan. That's enough, you'll find it.

CAS: We're interviewing, Joanne, oh not Joanne, Carolyn, for this too.

CAR: Oh really?

CAS: Yeah.

CAR: And how did you work that out?

CAS: Uh Bronwyn just made a list of people, laughs.

CAR: Wow. Yeah.

CAS: So we made a list of people that we remembered who were MA students, um PhD student Assistant Directors, uh and then Bronwyn kind of picked a variety of people to do for the first round of interviews yeah. We interviewed Debra too. She was in here last week.

CAR: Oh was she?

CAS: Yeah

CAR: And what did she say?

CAS: I don't know! I haven't listened to the interview yet, but um yeah. We wanted to hear kind of how it got started and things like that from her end.

CAR: So I'm probably repeating a lot of what she said.

CAS: That's okay, that's how oral histories work, right?

CAR: Right.

CAS: Yeah, we need to get it from different angles, so yeah. Okay, this probably changed over your time here, but how did students, I don't want to say, "sign up for appointments," but come in? Were they walk-ins? Was it appointments? How did it work?

CAR: That changed a lot. Um when we first started they would call or come in and make an appointment; walk-ins were accepted. We weren't all that busy. And we continued, walk-ins could come in and as long as somebody was available. Then we set it up on the computer, so that they would sign in, using their social security number. And then of course there was all the concern about social security numbers, so we had to change that and go with their student ID. But um 50:00we kept doing it that way the whole time I was here.

CAS: Okay. It was TutorTrac when I got here.

CAR: It was TutorTrac. I forgot the name of that.

CAS: REACH still uses that. How long were the appointments? Or how long did they meet with students, was there a time limit or?

CAR: I think we set them up at an hour or 50 minutes so that they would have a 10 minute break between them. Didn't always last that long. And if they needed more time, and there's nobody waiting and the consultant was agreeable, it might go longer.

CAS: Okay. How did you decide the parameters or how kind of all that worked?

CAR: Parameters of what?

CAS: How long the appointment could last, whether or not you accepted walk-ins, that type of thing.

CAR: Oh because we weren't busy at first. We were always happy for walk-ins, if there was somebody available. Um and I think we just decided on 50 minutes because it made sense to us, you know. We thought a lot of students wouldn't need that time, but that's okay, that's there. And if they needed more and there's nobody available, they can make another appointment.

CAS: Okay. How did you do outreach to classes? Or students and faculty?

CAR: Graduate students went to the classes. We asked permission to come to classes, and if people let us, we went to the classes and did a five minute, it wasn't long, just a little explanation of what we did where we were located, you 52:00know. If you need this, we can do this and this. We can help with documentation, we can help you know-- Um then um we did some other. I know we did posters and flyers. And put them in the dormitories and around campus. Um of course it went on the notices that went out to faculty. I can't remember what that is. Um we did bookmarks we did various little things to give out to students, not a lot of that cause that got expensive. That can get expensive, but we did some of that.

CAS: Describe the tutoring space, or the office space as you remember it. I guess office space overall.

CAR: The office space was horrible. I really liked the people I worked with to design that. Well we didn't have even-- if you are familiar with it. We took in eventually another room. That larger room was not ours eventually. We asked for that, so that whole thing on the back, on the other side of that bank was not there. So the writing center was not huge in itself. The TA room could get crowded because you had, if everybody in there at once, that can get crowded. Ruth and I had, and I made a mistake. I gave her the larger room, which was small, cause I didn't care. But what happened was, she was the first person, and 54:00we thought if people came in and needed help, that they would go to her.

CAS: In the first office?

CAR: They didn't. They came in, and they came to the desk, and if nobody was there, which often happened when Vernon was there, they would come right into my office. So I ended up being the one that everybody came into the office. Those offices were not large. I knew it was designed by somebody who wasn't a teacher. My office was so small it was hard to fit a chair in there for a student. The desks were like you would have in a corporate office.

CAS: Yeah I was in that office, your old office I guess, for the first month I was here, month and a half

CAR: I had to ask for bookcases. They didn't give us bookcases. So I had to ask for that, that was hard to fit in. There wasn't a lot of storage space. It wasn't set up for-- they did a good job for a corporate office, but it wasn't very well set up for a writing center office.

CAS: I was gonna ask something, hm. Oh you had another office in the English department, no?

CAR: Not originally. Um, did I ever? No, I didn't. No. We ended up assuming the WR Office. The WR Office, Geoff Cross had his office in there. It was in 56:00Humanities across from the 300 rooms that are down toward the new building.

CAS: Yeah

CAR: There was a space in there that was kind of, they had enclosed with glass and panels and then marked off, and office behind that and that was Geoff's office, so eventually, he kept that office, if you can believe this, and we had the writing center space. So sometimes the TAs who were doing WR, that was their space sometime. That was not ideal. Jeff was not happy that there were, you know, students had to go through them. It just wasn't a good idea. We eventually just gave that up, and I think they, I don't know what they did with that space.

CAS: we still have an office over there, but we use it for the virtual writing 57:00center. it might be, I don't think it's the same one you're talking about, but it's maybe close to it. It's all the way at the end of the hallway on the third floor.

CAR: This is not at the end. This is if you come in up the stairs and you're facing the 300 the English office. And you go around past the elevator and you walk and you can look down, right in that area where you can look down, right past that was that enclosed area. And um I don't know what happened to it.

CAS: There's comp department offices there now.

CAR: They restructured that whole area.

CAS: Okay so that's the office space. Why wasn't it? Who did you say the administrative assistant was?

CAR: Ruth?

CAS: The front desk person.

CAR: Vernon

CAS: Why wasn't he at the desk?

CAR: Vernon... didn't come in a lot. We had hired Vernon because Ruth had worked with people who he was friends with. And they really wanted her to hire him. And we hired him. And he was a good guy, but he took almost all of his sick leave and vacation leave, almost immediately. He just wasn't there a lot. He used all that and then he would take time without pay. We eventually had to replace him. But uh he was good with students, he knew more technology than I did. And I liked him, but he just wasn't there a lot and it made it really hard.

CAS: Did you ever have consultants work the desk?

CAR: Yes. yes.

CAS: And you said that you added on the space behind the, your offices. Your office wall and the graduate student. When did that happen? And how did you get that?

CAR: I think I begged for it.

CAS: To the library? To the Provost?

CAR: I can't remember who I went to. It was space that wasn't really used. Students, I mean, students were coming to the library less. You can see that now. And that was a space that was kind of over and out of the way. And it was hardly ever used. And we were, we remember I've got sixteen graduate students and that office that they shared was tiny. So I probably went to Dale and said 60:00you know blah blah blah. And he probably said "I'll see what I can do." And he probably talked to Hal Lore (?), who was head of library at the time, or I think she still was. Who agreed. I think there was a trade off. They paid to do something else the library wanted. And then they let us do that space. We, as you can see, we really needed it though.

CAS: Right right. How, you don't have to remember the exact year, but how long were you in the writing center before you added on that space?

CAR: Oh probably five years.

CAS: Okay. And then the tutoring space had the computers on both sides?

CAR: Right

CAS: and in the middle there were big round tables, I'm assuming it's the same furniture as when I was, before we moved down here we had that furniture.

CAR: I think it was because it was all new. It was nice furniture. I mean students loved it because you could move the seats up and down. I mean it was really nice furniture, so I'm sure it was still there. (disruption from cell phone call)

CAS: Okay. We still have grad students coming in with their dissertations. That's one right there. He comes in a lot.

CAR: It's a great service. I can remember, Dan Jones was teaching here, a class 62:00here, and he was part of the Jones family, the David Jones family. He was wonderful. And he would bring his students in, and then he started talking to us. He, or somebody from Humana, started talking to us about whether we could, they could send some of their people here to the writing center. Because they had some people who needed to get uh caught up on

CAS: Writing? From Humana?

CAR: So you know, I don't think that ever happened, but we talked about it. Which reminds me, we also often had consultants to go for a while to the dormitories occasionally or business school or

CAS: How did that work?

CAR: If you wanna know the truth I was never there.

CAS: Okay

CAR: They seemed to think it was fine, but I don't know if that was because they didn't have a lot of business, and it was free time for them to work on what they were. But I think clearly it was people I trusted, you know? Who seemed to think it went fine. But that did not last very long. I think part of that had been part of the WR program and then it just seemed like money not very well spent, so.

CAS: Do you, was it their idea to go? Or was it your idea to go?

CAR: I think the writing, I think the English department had originally, the business school paid for so-- uh-- an English graduate student to come over like 5 hours a week or something, to be there to work with anybody who needed it, you know. It's not real hard to sell the writing center to business people or to 64:00education people or to engineering people, um nursing. We did a lot of workshops for nursing. So uh those people know. I mean think about nursing, what they would say is if you're writing up notes, "they better be clear." You know, you better be phrasing it properly. Um so it's not really that hard to sell it to people like that. They know, just like Humana. They know what it means when you get out in the world, if you can't write well.

CAS: There's been a divide between the English department and the Business School. Did you know that?

CAR: No

CAS: The business school is doing their own business writing classes now, and 65:00the English department is still doing business writing, but the business students don't take that class. And then the Business School also started their own writing center to support the business writing classes, but they hire like 5th year English PhD students to run the business writing center and teach some of the business writing classes, but they get to tell the PhD students exactly what they want them to do and how they want them to do it, because they're getting funded from the Business School. Yeah so there's been a pretty big change.

CAR: That's really interesting. That really is kind of on the model I was telling you. I think it's called the Brown model, where people from that dis-- but they're taking English. Usually it's people from that discipline who do that because they know all of the conventions, so it's interesting to me, why would you hire English people and then not let them do what they know to do?

CAS: I think the English students have the same question.

CAR: That's really interesting to me.

CAS: I don't think they're necessarily limiting themselves to only hiring English PhDs, that's just the only people they can get.

CAR: Why don't they hire their own people? I mean that, to me if you've got good people, who already know the conventions, that was a standard in writing centers for a long time, so if they're paying for-- but before I came here, when I was a graduate student here, they were paying part time for an English graduate student to come over then. I don't know, maybe they don't have faith in their own. Their own students, but I cannot, or maybe they're students aren't interested. I can't believe they're not really good writers over there who could. Cause we went over there and did work-- they asked us to come over and do workshops, and um her name was Shaus Bridget Shaunessey (?) was on it, wanted 67:00her students to write well, and she would suggest what she would want me to cover, but it was then what I wanted to do, you know. And that was a really good relationship. I don't know, maybe their students have so many opportunities, they don't want that job.

CAS: I've heard that about writing center, um that it's hard to get students and tutoring centers too, from disciplines where they already have good opportunities, like Engineering, where they do paid internships. Because ideally you would have students from across the disciplines, but that's not always gonna work. Yeah I don't know what's going on over there.

CAR: University of Wisconsin Madison, which is one of the top, or at least it 68:00was when Brad was there, one of the top writing centers. They do that. But they also have, worked in that Brown model, so they had a variety going on. It's a huge writing center and a huge university, so.

CAS: Wisconsin Madison? One of our uh MAs went there for her PhD. It's her first year there now. Okay. Uh you mentioned that the technology changed a lot while you were here. So, and you mentioned TutorTrac was kind of where you landed with scheduling appointments and you mentioned the Virtual Writing Center. Is there anything specific you can tell me about the technology? I know you weren't spearheading the technology.

CAR: You're asking me to tell you about technology? The saddest part of the technology for me is when I would ask graduate students to teach me how to do something, they just couldn't, they would just do it. So I never learned very well. And I see the same thing with my grandchildren. They do that. Um well we 69:00talked about it a lot. There were a lot of changes. First we did email back and forth, when were doing distance learning. And then we um found programs or something where uh you could do live chats. And um I don't think while I was here we got beyond that. And I'm making that sound, you should talk to JoAnn Griffin about this, by the way she teaches here.

CAS: Yeah we have her name on the list.

CAR: She can tell you all about that. She, I pretty much handed that over to her. She was really good at it, was really interested in it. And I had other things to do, so.

CAS: Okay. And then in the writing center for the face to face consultations, there were the computers? Students didn't bring their own laptops very often?

CAR: They never brought laptops in. This is two thousand--

CAS: That's a big difference

CAR: They brought their hard copies in. So they didn't even use computers much. I mean they would come in and use the computers, but for consulting, that was rare. They brought in hard copy drafts. That's how we knew there was red all over them. I'm making it sound like we got a lot of those, and we didn't, but they would bring in their hard copy. They would sit by the, and we did encourage them if they liked a consultant to keep working with them and get used to each other. They would bring it in. They would read it. And then they would talk about it.

CAS: And so when students used the computers, it was mainly on their own?

CAR: Not always. Some would bring, uh their paper in on a disk. Or they would 71:00use the computer sometime to do research. You know, even with a student, I mean with a consultant, they might say "well why don't we look that up." Or um you know they used them. And sometimes students would come in because that's where they can get a computer. But most of the consultations were hard copy.

CAS: Okay. And what technology did you use for administration of the writing center?

CAR: My computer to write up reports.

CAS: Okay

CAR: I can't think of anything else. I feel like a dinosaur here. I can't think of anything.

CAS: Okay. Tell me about the Writing Center Research Project. You mentioned it 72:00earlier, so why did you start it? What was its goal?

CAR: I started it because, partly because John Hale, I had a trouble passing up money and John Hale was all excited about the writing center and agreed to give us money if I had a good use for it. So my use for it was to start the Writing Centers Research Project. Jeanie Simpson had been here. She had thought we needed to do a survey. So we did a survey, and as you know I'm not good at that. I mean the technology. But I had students who were interested in it and did that. I was more interested in, the history, so we did oral histories and we did, we compiled materials and kept materials that were important to writing 73:00centers and to the Writing Centers' Research Project. We did that, I guess I did that for three or four years. And it was just killing me. I tried to get [a course] release [for] it, and my department chair did not want to give me release. So I was, um I just felt like I couldn't keep doing it at all. So um I asked if anybody wanted it, and Allison Holland wanted it, at the University of Arkansas Little Rock. We bundled it all up and shipped it there. And I don't know much about what happened after that. I think she had her mother died and she had some problems, so I tried to stay in touch, but she was, the first years were difficult, so I frankly don't know where it is at this point.

CAS: It's still there. They have a website, and you can go on and see everything. And I actually got a couple of the oral histories out of it, but I had to email her and then she emailed me the audio files.

CAR: She? Is Allison still there?

CAS: That name sounds familiar

CAR: Yeah okay.

CAS: And then the survey part is at Purdue.

CAR: That makes sense.

CAS: and they're still sending out a survey every few years. And I cited it in my dissertation and everything.

CAR: Good. That makes sense. It was all too much for one person.

CAS: Yeah I think Purdue is doing a good job with the survey. They've got all the past data up on their website.

CAR: That's great.

CAS: And the response rate has increased every year. So yeah. And you, had you had PhD students dedicated to the writing center research project, right?

CAR: Um one split, two ten hours.

CAS: Okay, and their job was to conduct the interviews? And?

CAR: Well we did all kinds of stuff. They conducted interviews. They helped collect stuff, um they did research. I mean that's who wrote the award winning. They not only did the survey, they worked with it. Mainly that. A lot of energy went to getting it off the ground, because nothing like this had existed. And uh, we did presentations at writing center conferences and comp/rhet conferences, and to get the word out, and ask people to take the survey and to give us any historical materials that-- it was really interesting to me because, I'm gonna tell this about Purdue. Purdue was really important in writing 76:00centers, and one of the graduate students, uh Melissa Ianetta said, I think it was Melissa Ianetta said you know they've got these 10 boxes of old writing center material there, they're gonna throw away. They've been in the way, they've tried to get them to take them to archives, you ought to ask for those. So I asked for them, and they decided they were important and they wanted to keep them. So it's really interesting. I think the writing center's research project as much as anything helped people be aware of maybe materials they had were worth keeping and not throwing away, because nobody was keeping writing center materials. They eventually sent all of Mickey Harris' stuff to us. Actually they drove it down, Bud, I can't think of his name. Anyway, they had great people there. They rented a UHaul and brought them all down here. So um 77:00I'm getting on a tangent here.

CAS: No I'm interested. Okay. Did anything else in the writing center connect to your teaching or scholarship at the time?

CAR: I wrote an article with Paula Gillespie, that she wanted to do an article on gender in the writing center and she did not have a background in gender studies, so she came down and stayed with me a few days and we did that. I wrote a silly little article about one of the writing center conferences, just fun, you know. That I think those were my only research and they weren't heavy research.

CAS: Uh then you taught the practicum and the other classes that you taught 78:00weren't writing center class or anything like that? I don't think they've had another class about writing centers, as far as I know.

CAR: No, I taught usually uh Women in Literature or the Rhetoric of U.S. Slavery, or the History of Rhetoric. I usually taught one of those, and when I asked for a course release to do the WCRP, the answer was given to me they needed somebody to teach those courses, they couldn't give me a course release. Um and I enjoyed teaching those courses, it was just-- I was-- had too much to do.

(personal conversation 1:18-19)

CAS: Okay. How do I want to ask this question? I guess what did the English 80:00department faculty think about the writing center? Was it an easy relationship? Was it a difficult relationship? Was it separate?

CAR: They did not make it difficult, if you want to know the truth. I think they were happy to have a writing center in the library and I was in the library, we were pretty separate. I think they were happy to have a writing center um but you know most of them weren't interested in the writing center as far as the workings or anything. So you know that was fine. I was over here, we were doing the writing center. If they wanted to send a student, they did. It wasn't they were unsupportive, it's just that they were happy we were here, but

CAS: I feel like it's not changed much.

CAR: Yeah, so. It wasn't something that they had to worry about. It was almost 81:00like, this was true at LSU too, at LSU the Comp/Rhet people, all three of us, were left alone cause they were just happy we were teach-- you know, I was teaching either Sara or I were teaching the practicum for new graduate students.

CAS: Oh you taught that there?

CAR: Yes, and I learned a lot from Sarah (unclear last name) in doing that, cause she'd been teaching it. Um so the rest of the faculty, it was most lit[erature]. They were just happy we were taking care of it. And then they got, they got TAs, you know, if you if you don't have something to do with those TAs, you know. Anyway it helped them. It really increased the number of students they had. So they were happy with us. They thought we did a good job. They were happy 82:00we took care of it, and we didn't have to, that was almost the way it was here, although there was a little more interest in us here because we had the PhD in Rhet/Comp, but generally unless you have problems, people are just happy you're taking care of it.

CAS: Okay.

CAR: Do you feel that way now?

CAS: Yeah I think so. Well I also read, or became aware that at one point, it must have been right when you started, Debra got it changed so that tenure track and tenured faculty were teaching 101 and 102? And then and now that's changed. And I guess I just wonder if that had any impact?

CAR: That, she did that before I came back. And that was really interesting to me because I would not have done it. I know why she did it. She did it to get 83:00TAs. I mean I understand why she did it, but I never want faculty teaching writing if they don't want to teach writing; they're probably not gonna do a good job of it. And that had happened before I came back, and that kind of fell by the wayside.

CAS: Pretty quickly?

CAR: Pretty quickly. Well, once you got the TAs, they're probably not going to take them back; they just, you know. And and, if you stopped to think about it, after we have students in writing center for a year, they go on. They're happy, you know and as long as you're doing a good job. And our students, I think did a good job. And as long as they're doing a good job, people are not going to bother you much; they're just happy you're taking care of that. But I forgot she had done that, yeah. That was a deal she got to get more, I'm pretty sure, to get more grad, graduate students. So I understood why she did it, but I just-- 84:00the thing I was most grateful for at LSU was, I thought we're gonna have a problem because we're going to have lit[erature], MAT (?) graduate students to get their assistantship have to teach writing classes. That's not gonna be good. I found that true for maybe 10% of them. Most of them really cared; they wanted to be good teachers. They felt like it was helping their writing, so that always worked out better than I thought. But when I asked to teach comp at LSU, what they would always say to me is, "You don't have to. You don't have to." And I would say, "But I would like to." They were incredulous. They just-- because they didn't want to be doing it. And so when Debra did that, I understood why she did it, but I always would resist putting faculty who won't want to be 85:00teaching writing into a writing class.

CAS: Okay yeah, I just wondered if that had any impact on the writing center, but it sounds like it was kind of falling apart by the time the writing center got off the ground--

CAR: I think that was really separate. And what and, get me going here, I really think that uh I prefer a different model for teaching comp. If you put lit faculty in there, what they're gonna do is teach literature, you know. Understandably. And I just prefer a different model than that.

(personal conversation 1:25-27)

CAS: Okay the last, or I guess couple, questions. When you first started the 87:00writing center, was it open to students, faculty and staff to come in?

CAR: Yes

CAS: And did you make that decision?

CAR: I'm sure I did. It just seemed like, it just seemed obvious to me. I'm trying to remember what faculty we had come in. Uh, well it made sense to me we had PhD candidates in the writing center. And we had, I know we had faculty come 88:00in. I'm trying to remember who. Not that they needed a lot of work, but sometimes they would come in just for advice on this or that. Oftentimes they would come to me. And I would work with them, but um yeah that just made sense to me because of the consultants we had in the writing center.

CAS: Did you ever work with alumni? We get that request sometimes.

CAR: I never got that request. I got the Humana request. And that never worked out for some reason. They kind of let that drop. I never got that request, and what do you all do?

CAS: We don't. And sometimes they get really mad. I guess we're afraid of opening that door because there are so many alumni.

CAR: I doubt if you'd get that many, you know. But yeah that's a hard one.

CAS: Yeah some writing centers do.

CAR: Do you say "why didn't you come to the writing center when you were here?"

CAS: Some of them did, and then you know they graduate, and they're cut off.

CAR: Oh that's why they want to--

CAS: Yeah yeah.

CAR: That's a compliment.

CAS: It is, yeah.

CAR: Wow.

(personal conversation 1:29:00-1:29:33)

CAS: Okay do you have any photos or documents that you could share?

CAR: Yes. Most of them went with the Writing Centers Research Project. I have fans, with Ruth's and my pictures on them, that the graduate students-- I have some things I will look for, that were funny things that students did, that they thought were funny and a nice thing to do. So I've got little, I think I've 90:00still got little um, I don't think I gave some of these away, because they still meant a lot to me. I will look for those.

CAS: Well we're trying to make either copies of things, or pictures of things, so as not to have the originals.

CAR: You can have my originals.

CAS: But you said it was meaningful!

CAR: No. They made fans for everybody. I've probably got four of Ruth's and four of me.

CAS: Okay, well yeah.

CAR: I'll look. We can decide. I'll look and see what I've got. And when are you going to want those?

CAS: So we're-- I don't know if Brnwyn's mentioned it or you've heard, but we're trying to do a celebration in the fall for the 20th anniversary. And Bronwyn wanted me to make sure that you knew that we would work around your schedule because it's important for us that you are there.

CAR: Thank you

CAS: That you are here. So we will do some type of display table or slide show or something like that then with the documents that we have, yeah.

CAR: Well I don't know if you want those. Those were personal to my students, you know.

CAS: But they might come and see them there.

CAR: That would be funny. The things I've got are things that were kind of personal, with students, you know. I really liked my students.

CAS: Yeah yeah. I'm sure they liked you. And is there anything else that you remember or that's important that I haven't asked you about?

CAR: I can tell you lots that surfaced when you were talking about problems, but I don't think I need to go there. I don't, let me think about fun things. At the end of the writing center practicum, we had a meal at my house. And I have funny things, you know that was really nice. I don't know what to say, I just, most of 92:00my students were just nice and often fun to work with. And so that's why when there were problems, it really stands out. I was fortunate.

CAS: Were you sad to leave the writing center?

CAR: No, I was exhausted.

CAS: You were exhausted.

CAR: Well, when I left the writing center, I was going on sabbatical. And I thought I had the option to come back if I wanted, and I learned I didn't. So um I was a little sad about that, but I was really tired, so it was okay. Yeah.

CAS: Then you were director for? How many years?

CAR: I guess, I want to say 8 but it must have been 7. I think it must have been 7.

CAS: That's a long time.

CAR: I felt that I did all the work to get it going, you know. So it was kind of hard to leave cause it had gotten a lot easier, but then I also had the WCRP and you know, I so-- yeah. It was okay.

CAS: Then that's all the questions that I have. And I appreciate your time and memories.

CAR: Well thank you, thank you.