Interview with Laura Determing, January 22, 2021

Alex Way: Just wondering, what did you sorry, when did you work at the university Writing Center. I guess specific dates. And were you an MA or PhD student during this time?

Laura Detmering: Okay, so I was a PhD student and it was my third and fourth year so. Hang on, let me do that math I started in '08, so I would have worked there from 2010 to 2012.

AW: Okay

LD: As an assistant director

AW: Okay, wonderful. and as the Assistant Director, I guess, what were your responsibilities?

LD: Well, they changed because I happened to come in the first year that I worked there Mary Rosner was the. Director of the Writing Center, and then my 1:00second year it was Bronwyn Williams, and so the first year my responsibilities were mostly taking typical face-to-face appointments, working an occasional Saturday shift, doing observations, mentoring the Master's students as they did like their own appointments and things of that nature. I think occasionally attending the English, I think it's 604 or whatever the class is they have to take at the for the throughout the year. And then the second year when Bronwyn came in we shifted a little bit. , we less frequently took our own appointments 2:00and more focused on our own research projects and so one that I remember doing was working on collaborations, potential collaborations between the Writing Center and the library staff, shockingly being married to a librarian who worked in that library I saw potential for collaboration so so I did some research on that and then we started developing what, very like preliminarily developing what eventually I guess became the , I think they're calling it the academic commons now maybe. , yes so this was when were still up on the third floor of the library though so we weren't in a shared space and, Adam Robinson at the 3:00time was the associate director I think was his title. And so he (Bronwyn) and I uh, did a lot of had a lot of conversations about like uh we should really be like working in the same area and working together with students and things like that, so that was one of my big projects and then in the in terms of the mentoring piece of it it was a lot more kind of I'd say like more hands on interaction with the consultants. So whereas that first year it was more of just an occasional observation or occasionally attending the class (in the second year) the other AD and I traded off attending one class per week. We also taught I can't remember if he (Bronwyn) had us teach it once or twice but to get some experience with teaching a graduate level class and lots of stuff like that and also helped with the development of the Writing Center blog. Although the other 4:00assistant director was the one who initially brought forward that idea and then we also, uh, started the dissertation writing retreat. so it was a lot of the stuff that's being done now I got to be part of like sort of the early stages of that which was pretty cool, , and it's nice to see like fruition. So yeah.

AW: Yeah that is, that is really cool and there's a lot of parts in there I can follow up on. I have read a couple of your blog posts while they're still in the archive and yeah, and you do mention that you're, you're experienced the writing retreat and I guess how was how was it being a part of you know all this blog, writing retreat, as well as the commons. What kinds of, uh, I guess things did you learn from those experiences, and yeah.

LD: Yeah, well, it's funny because we're actually trying to start our own blog at Spalding right now. And it's been in development for about 3 years. We've had a lot of turnover as well. I actually just moved into my current role in July. So previously I was working with the Writing Center as an instructor, so I wasn't directly working for the Writing Center. Now that I'm the coordinator of the Writing Center, I'm actually empowered to do things and have the authority to say like hey we should have a blog and stuff like that. So I actually learned 6:00a lot from my time at UofL about you know getting that started and and it's, it's nice because I can you know. As I'm trying to develop it and I'm, I'm not doing any of the legwork, we have an intern who's working with us and he's like way more tech aware than I am so he's actually putting together the blog and all of that. But I've been able to you know, retrack to Bronwyn and Cassie and say, hey I know we did this, but can you remind me of how you know how we did this, and like, it I would say that a lot of what. to actually answer your question a lot of what I did during that time helped to sort of think about how, how in this new role I'm in as a Writing Center coordinator can I take what I learned 7:00you know I guess 10 years ago when I was at UofL Writing Center how can I actually implement that in this new space which is very different because you know UofL is like this huge school with like lots of students, lots of faculty, lots of staff, and I'm in this really teeny tiny school now even though we're just right down the street you know its it's a very different environment, but also very much the same and so I'm trying to think about those other projects the blog is just the one that stands out the most to me because that's actually something we're working on right now. I also suddenly remembered that we had at the time the survey that we give out at the end of appointments wasn't very 8:00good, it was like this paper document. It didn't really ask the students anything that was like very useful or gave us very useful feedback and so we developed Bronwyn and Adam and I developed a new survey which I don't know if y'all still use it or not I know it was still being used a couple of years ago so so I got to learn about what actually goes into developing a survey and work with people on campus and actually like putting it together into a program that gets emailed to students and stuff, so

AW: Yeah, that was actually one of my questions was about your exit survey. And Bronwyn mentioned that you developed it. And it is actually still being used.

LD: All right cool.

AW: yeah (laughs) wonderful.

LD: Good to know

AW: And I guess at the time. So were You've mentioned a few of the other I guess 9:00tutors or what was the, , associates or what was the name that I guess, what was the position title back in the day was it tutors?

LD: You know I've always used consultants I think because when I was an undergrad that was. this was 20 years ago when I was an undergraduate I worked in the Writing Center at NKU. And the director was adamant that we use the term consultants. Not tutors. Not you know, anything else, it had to be consultants, so that was like so drilled into my head. That when I think about Writing Center staff, I automatically use the word consultants. We may have used tutors at U of L I can't remember but yeah, it's just never gone our of my head.

AW: Yeah, so who were I guess some of the other consultants you worked with? Or I think you mentioned Adam? Or

LD: so yeah so, Adam actually , I don't know if you've ever met him. He, uh, was Cassie's predecessor

AW: Oh, okay [illegible]

LD: Yes, so he got his masters from UofL in probably 2009 'cause I think we overlapped in the program for a year so he was there when I first started and we actually did not work in the Writing Center together. While he was a student it was that the person who had been in that role before him I, I guess retired and then Dr. Rosner hired Adam as the I think the title is associate director. Tit gets confusing there's so many like assistant, associate, you know whatever 11:00[laugh]. There's too many directors, but Adam was in that role the two years I was in the Writing Center. And then I guess he left a couple years after me. And then Cassie got hired. And Cassie was actually a consultant, I believe the first year I was assistant director, because she got her Masters, , I guess towards the end of my PhD program. , so there's Cassie, I'm trying to remember who else was in her cohort.. , Becky Hallmann who may have changed her name. She's married to Rodrigo Martini.. But they both worked there together. Nia Boyd, Harley Ferris, and then the second year. . I know , I know there were some other 12:00folks from that year that I'm just I'm blanking on. But then the second year that I worked there, there were actually only five Master's students, and so we all we had like a batch of doctoral students who worked as consultants rather than assistant directors, and I know that included Megan Bardolph, and yeah, man, sorry I'm blanking on it

AW: I got a lot of good names and it's uh yeah, hard to think of like, way back in the day who you worked with. And, so this is wonderful. Thank you. And yeah I was, let's see I was wondering. Let's see. I was wondering. You might have 13:00already answered this question how you were trained to be a writing tutor. If there's anything you want to add in there that's fine. If not we'll go on to the next question.

LD: , yeah I mean I sort of answered it, so I worked when I was an undergraduate at NKU's Writing Center , for probably about 2 1/2 years. And then uh, it's pretty similar to the way they do it at UofL I took a class, it was one credit hour. But it's also different because you're an undergraduate student so you're first being exposed to writing theory and all of that stuff. Very heavy on Peter Elbow. I remember having to watch a video of him and thinking like, this dude is so boring, and now I adore him. But if you had asked 19 year-old me about Peter 14:00Elbow, you would have had a very difference response then than me now.

AW: Yeah, it's funny how things change like that. You've gotta love the Elbow. yeah, and I was, let's see, so it looks like you went through transition of course between different directors, and , but the uh I guess the structure of the program itself. What was the structure at the time.. That's a pretty broad question isn't it. , yeah, I guess in general terms, or if that makes sense, what was

LD: well , let me think. So the position of assistant director I believe is like 15:00a 10 hour a week position, so you'd spend 10 hours a week, , working in the Writing Center and it could be like a 7 in that first year it might have been a lot of, , working with students or clients or I'm not sure what terminology you all use now, but I've never been a big fan of the term clients it feels like very conserist to me [laugh] I hear other people say it so whatever?

AW: [laugh] Yeah a business transaction

LD: But it. It's not. You know I get it because it's not always students. It could be faculty or staff or whatever so I get it But in that first year, some of that time might have been sent doing that, and you know, observing folks, maybe doing some research and things of that nature. I think now now that I'm 16:00talking about it, I think I did a couple of workshops as well , that were not very well attended, so I don't know how useful they actually were but .. and then the second year it was a I feel like I was a lot busier because there was a lot more like let's develop some stuff so you know, developing the survey, developing the blog, developing the the writing retreat. , also developing workshops and things like that. And I did occasionally take an appointment but I don't have a lot of memory in that, . In that second year of you know, working directly with people who were coming into the Writing Center, it was more of a kind of behind the scenes meeting.

AW: Okay, wonderful. , it sounds like a busy busy couple of years.

LD: Yeah. And writing a dissertation you know so whatever (laughs)

AW: (laugh) and yeah, let's see. I know I'm kind of going back just a little bit, but is there anything like you would, and if not we can move on, but anything you would like to add about the exit interview. , if not, then

LD: No, I mean it's just been so long. I remember that one of the things that I didn't like about the initial survey was that it didn't leave any room for reflection. And I just think that, you know, I mean, you know you teach writing, you study writing, you know like reflection is so essential and integral to learning and to the writing process all of that, and so I think that I don't remember if there's a specific question on there that allows for that reflection, but I do know it goes out like after the appointment so they've had time to kind of reflect on and think about it and that was something that I 18:00remember that Bronwyn and I had talked a lot about. Making sure that it wasn't something that , you know they had just like quickly responded to and turned in. And so I think that, . Yeah. Hopefully there's some kind of reflection happening when they actually fill that thing out but who knows.

AW: Yeah, I agree. It's a really important part of the writing process. , wonderful. And , I was wondering, and this is also a little bit broad. It might, it maybe hasn't changed much. But what population of students did you work with. I don't know if it's that different from nowadays but

LD: Yeah, it's probably not I don't know how much the demographics of UofL have possibly changed since I was there because I know in the time I've been at 19:00Spalding, which is my I think seventh year there you know the the, the, the diversity rate at Spalding was probably about like 30-40% when I started and, now I can't imagine it's not higher because when I do teach, m the classes are just more you know, diverse I can say that when I was at UofL, , and again this is speaking more to my experience in the classroom than necessarily in the Writing Center, , but I remember feeling like, my classes were very white, very middle to upper class, very if there were students who were members of the LGBT community they were very quiet about it , I think the first time I ever worked 20:00with a student who was openly trans was probably around my last year at UofL which would have been .. two thousand, between 2012 and 2014, I can't remember--I'm thinking now, was that the year I finished my PhD, or the year that I, 'cause I stayed on for a year as an adjunct, but either way so there really wasn't and then also racial diversity, you know. There just wasn't a lot. So I don't know how that breaks down at at UofL now, I've heard, uh, that it's a little bit different.

AW: Yeah,

LD: But, you know, I know that in the Writing Center I, I definitely remember 21:00working with more I don't know what the appropriate term is now, m nontraditional students. Do y'all still use that?

AW: Yeah, yeah, I think so.

LD: Cause I knew that like the idea of like traditional you know, you know.

AW: Yeah

LD: Rhetoric people like we have to like well what does that mean?

AW: (laugh) yeah, no worries. (laugh) And I actually did take a I did take in my master's my first year over at uh Washington State University Teaching Non-traditional Students was the name of the course. So yeah, working age and all that, so, at least back in 2013 at the very least it's still been in use. Great. , and what do you remember about working with writers--what was 22:00rewarding, what was a challenge?

LD: , I think that I'm somebody who loves reading, like that's just always been a really integral part of my life. , since childhood. And so I just I think that's what drove me you know to go into the field of English. To move you know I moved from my, I started out as an undergraduate, I did creative writing, as a Master's Student I did lit, and then I did a PhD in composition, so I ran the whole gamut of the field. , and I think that so I think that the the best or most rewarding part absolutely of working in Writing Centers for me has always 23:00been the opportunity to just to read and to get to read a lot of different stuff and interesting stuff and to engage with people about their writing.

AW: Yeah

LD: But people do not like to talk about their writing (laugh)

AW: (laugh)

LD: For the most part you know, and that's a frustration that I think happens in the Writing Center, in the classroom, and in the, and it's just because so much of the time when we write, we write as like Even if you're writing for an assignment, it's so personal, right? Like it's like, . It's what you think, it's what you feel, and whether it's like you know something you want to be writing or something that you don't want to be writing, you have all these emotions tied in with it. And so, particularly if it's something that you don't want to be writing, there's this sense of like anger and frustration like, why do I have to 24:00do this, you know and so I think that the whole bubbles up and comes out in a consultation, and so, so I think that that is the it's like simultaneously like this really cool and fun part of working in a Writing Center and also like the worst part of working in a Writing Center because you're you're like warring with these different emotions and trying to like say, okay let's talk about that, and now let's put that over here, and just talk about this as a docent, and I think that is the piece of it that yeah, it's definitely the biggest frustration is figuring out how to we like in 45 minutes or less take all of 25:00this like grand stuff and just put it into this little box and say, okay this is, you know, this is what we're going to do.

AW: Yeah. It's a, a challenge for sure. , and I was wondering about, , how do you approach sessions or working with writers and are there strategies that you learned in the Writing Center that you still use today in your work?

LD: Yeah , I know I remember when I was an undergraduate really struggling when I worked in the Writing Center to set aside sentence-level issues that I was seeing that were coming up, right. It takes so much time, at least for me it did, to learn how to like block that out and just focus bigger. so I think that 26:00in the, the time that I was at UofL I got a little bit better at looking at writing more globally, and I think that now in the work that I'm doing now, I think that I'm probably the best I've ever been at that. , but it's hard for me to say how much of that really comes from Writing Centers and not teaching in the classroom, because I've been teaching for 16 years I think, so you know, so I feel like it it's both, like, I don't think I can separate those and I mean 27:00I've taught for so much longer than I've worked in Writing Centers that I feel like the classroom part of it has to have played a bigger role than the Writing Center piece of it.

AW: Yeah, okay. I see.

LD: I do like the not having to grade part though (laugh)

AW: (laugh) Yeah, I can hear you on that. And uh, what.. I mean I can imagine all kinds of writing, but what types of writing did you work with, uh, just a few examples or (laugh)

LD: Yeah, . Definitely uh, a lot of composition papers. so for sure writing. Some, some third year composition classes, but mostly first year. , nursing. , although there I'm maybe conflating because most of it's Spalding and most of it 28:00at KU, but I feel like there's a lot of that at UofL too. and , oh the , the program that UofL does with uh retired police officers. Where they come back and take classes, I remember working with a number of those folks that were in that program. Those, those were really fun appointments actually, , always, because it was so interesting , to, to meet like you know, practicing police officers and and, you know 'cause they'd often come in and they they'd be you know like, sorta like these tough guys and stuff, and then like they were like super vulnerable about their writing because they hadn't written anything in a really long time and so it was always just fun to see that you know, within them.

AW: Yeah, I'll have to look up that program, I've never heard of it. Do you know the name of it by any chance?

LD: No, but I can ask Rob , and uh, I can email you and let you know. (Southern Police Institute).

AW: Ok thank you, I appreciate it.

LD: Cause he's worked with a lot of those guys.

AW: yeah

LD: And I do say guys because it is mostly men (laugh)

AW: (laugh) Alright, really interesting. And, let's see so the uh, the Writing Center space like you mentioned before, it was on the third floor instead of now it's in the library, the main floor there. , yeah, could you just describe the space a little bit the administrative and consultants' offices, , and what did you and your other tutors or consultants do in your downtime while waiting for appointments.

LD: Yes so so it was up on the third floor and there was you'd walk up the steps and , I'm trying to remember if those were the steps they've taken out. No it's the. No because those only went to the second floor, so yeah, you'd walk up the steps, the still existing steps, and it was right there in front of you, and so you'd walk through the door and you'd have Robin who I know is retired now, I don't remember what her title was, but she was sort of the administrator, , would be sitting there but as you'd walk in the door, uh, Bronwyn's office would be right there to the right, and what was at the time Adam's office, and then Robin's desk, and then , our office, me and the other , assistant directors were right behind her, and there was like a big open space where we'd have appointments and then you'd walk around a corner and there was sort of a little conference room and then the consultants' office. So we were actually like 31:00physically separated from the consultants so it it and I think from what I heard before, it must have happened within a year or two before I started working there because some of my my uh, cohort members were , had gotten their masters there as well so they had been consultants and then also assistant directors and they said that the consultants' office was up front and the assistant directors were in the back which seems bizarre to me because that that was when this was like way bigger, but anyway so I mostly interacted with Bronwyn and Adam more so than the consultants. , and in terms of downtime, that first year there was more 32:00because we were taking more appointments there was more downtime where we would work on like, I was taking my comprehensive exams at the time so I remember spending time studying and things like that , but that second year , there may have been like an hour of downtime where I worked on my dissertation, but I was pretty busy most of the time working on Writing Center projects , so , it was mostly you know, that there really wasn't downtime, I'd would say that that second year.

AW: Yea

LD: Other than just occasionally like , Adam coming in, making a pot of coffee, and chit-chat, or like popping into Bronwyn's office, and asking about something 33:00that he's working on or whatever.

AW: Thank you. And, let's see uh you've probably answered this a little bit, but did your work in the Writing Center connect to your teaching, coursework, or scholarship at the time.

LD: , definitely. Yeah, so I I know that working in the Writing Center, because I had had such a long gap between the time I did Writing Center work as an undergrad and then when I was an assistant director, so I sort of, as I first began teaching I moved a lot away from Writing Center philosophy and more into, which sounds weird to say, because Writing Center philosophy is so tied to comp 34:00theory but I became more focused in my teaching on , minutiae like, you know, sentence level concerns, making sure that you know, they were using MLA properly, and things like that. And then at some point, probably pretty aligned with when I was back in the Writing Center, I realized I was wasting so much of my time with that stuff you know because like, , you can always look up the you know, the where the period goes and you know, and and MLA changed on me since the last time I published, so I'm having to relearn it myself now, which is you know (laugh). And so it was like you know, I'm really wasting a lot of time on 35:00this. Let's focus on bigger picture. And so it brought me back I think to that that bigger picture and just the joy of just reading, you know. Again, just getting to read peoples' writing and just give feedback without, like I've said before, that, that need to grade it, you know, so.

AW: Okay, wonderful. and I guess same kind of question but , this is actually really tied into it, it might be too similar, but just asking whether it influenced your teaching scholarship or administration since leaving, but it's kind of an overlap, I think. . Maybe not so much, or not too different, the past and the present. .

LD: , one thing is that when so this would have actually been before I was working in the Writing Center I have this idea that I was like, wouldn't it be 36:00great if because we so often in comp embed, . Librarians into our classes, right, so we have them come to class and teach, research strategies and then, , in a lot of classes like mine, like I have, , the students do writing journals that are public within the class so at the time it was on a wiki, and then it evolved to Twitter and now it's just on the course platform, but I'll have them log their writing process and have a librarian like pop into that and give them feedback, and I remember this would have been right around the time I started my PhD, so '08, '09--having I thought, why not have the Writing Center do that? Why 37:00not have the consultant be part of that too? And then they developed this relationship with the Writing Center and etc., etc., so at the time, Brice Nordquist was working at , as an assistant director in the Writing Center, and so he worked with my class, and Rob Detmering also as the librarian, and , I brought that with me to Spalding and so now every class I teach, every comp class has a writing journal component where there's at least one person from the Writing Center and a librarian giving them feedback along the way. , throughout the class on their writing, so.

AW: Oh that's awesome.

LD: And then that , we're trying to get an article published on that. We sent it out last year, and got a revise and resubmit, and then COVID happened, so we 38:00haven't (laughs) resent it and so I don't know if the revise and resubmit has expired at this point so, but it's in the works.

AW: Yeah, no, it happens. Okay, awesome. , and uh yeah I just have a few more questions. Sorry I've got a lot of (laugh) a big list here. I was wondering what technology, , was available or used in the center. , how was it used you know for writing or administration or both.

LD: Yeah we had some from what I remember, uh, there were in that, in that like space that I described, the sort of open space where we'd have consultations, there were some computers, but we rarely ever used them. I don't think they were 39:00in very good shape (laughs). As most university computers aren't, and so for the most part for consultations you know we'd work off a printed off copy of a paper, you know handwriting corrections and things like that. . And then in our office we each had a desktop that we worked on, . So, uh. So I spent a good deal of my time working on a computer. , and we used Tutor Tracker I think for scheduling appointments. , I don't know if that's if they're still using that or not, .

AW: Yeah, I'll have to confirm that. I'm actually. I'm not working at the Writing Center, I'm kind of an adjacent, I'm with the Watson Conference, but I'm 40:00working with Bronwyn for this project , so I'll have to confirm with him on that one, but Tutor Tracker Any audio or equipment or anything

LD: , I think that uh, so Drew Holladay was uh I think, I think he may have been an assistant director as well. He shared an office with us but he was , he was not in the program at the time, I think it was, he did like a year or two of adjuncting between the masters and the PhD. he would use, I remember him having like virtual appointments, I think he did all of the virtual appointments. so I remember him wearing headphones a lot and having to shush all of us in the office because he was taking appointments. But we didn't have anything like that that we

AW: Oh okay. Thank you. , and I was wondering how did students sign up for 41:00appointments. Did they do walk-ins or schedule beforehand?

LD: Yes, sorry for interrupting you. Yeah, we did take some walk-ins, and then, , they could I don't. I don't remember exactly how it worked, but I think they could uh schedule into tutor track as well. We just don't use that kind of , we don't use that at uh Spalding, so it's just you know, again, one of those things where it's like, it's been too long to remember specifically.

AW: Yeah, no worries. And what other work did you do for the university Writing Center? Like class presentations, workshops, creating resources like handouts. You've touched on a little bit of that, but anything else?

LD: Yeah, definitely did a lot of work redesigning, , handouts. We just had a lot of like old out of date stuff. , at the time, , and those have probably 42:00since been revised because they're probably out-of-date now (laughs) especially because there's MLA and APA guides I remember laboring over. , I do, I do remember one time I made an agreement with Adam that if he took Chicago Style I would do the MLA and APA because I really didn't want to spend my time learning Chicago now I'm (inaudible) and so I did the APA guide and I showed it to him and he was like this is, this is great, except just one thing, about halfway through you switched to MLA (laughs) so then I had to go back and fix it. But uh, yeah, that kind of stuff, and then, , the I'm sorry the, remind me of what the question was because I got so distracted by my story (laughs).

AW: I was just wondering about , just what other kind of work you did for the 43:00Writing Center class presentations, workshops, resources, handouts, yeah.

LD: Yes, so lots of , class presentations. Like you know, the, like the, sort of like the, five to ten minute, "hey this is who we are and what we do" I definitely remember doing workshops on, you know where I'd make a PowerPoint--this is how you cite a source in MLA, this is how you cite a source in APA. It was usually MLA fortunately (laughs). And then, uh, I think we did one on writing paragraphs. Like how to make paragraphs cohesive and coherent So yeah, I think those are the only ones I can remember off the top of my head. I did one during the dissertation retreat on , just how to actually like, make yourself write a dissertation because I was doing it at the time, so. That's the 44:00time, now that I think about it that I remember actually sitting and working on my dissertation in the office just because it was during the retreat, so I was like they're all writing their dissertations, I should sit here and write mine.

AW: Yeah for sure. , and uh, I guess, uh this they also want me to ask if there are, , if you have any copies of any or any photos or docents you would like to share. , and the second part of this question says we will not be able to return photos or docents (laughs).

LD: (laughs) Well I'm pretty sure that everything that I, I did not take any photos , and any docents that I worked on at that time are probably part of a Google Drive that I would have shared with Bronwyn and , whoever else was you know working at the time, so they probably already have access to all that stuff 45:00anyway, so no.

AW: Okay, no worries, sounds good.

LD: But if he wants to dig back through his Google Drive and find stuff that I worked on, I'm sure, you know, (inaudible) but.

AW: Go down the rabbit hole and find all kinds of stuff (laughs). Alright, , and is there anything else you remember that was important that I haven't talked about.

LD: No I can't think of anything now. Itt was, you know, it was a very stressful, difficult time in my life, you know, finishing up the PhD. I had some personal tragedy that I was dealing with and having that supportive environment 46:00particularly not to in any way, belittle or criticize anyone else, but particularly having the opportunity to work in there with Bronwyn and Adam and having that support system was great for me at that time in my life and, you know, I've been really fortunate that I'm in a place now where I have that again but I do miss that. That, that's the thing that I love the most about Writing Centers as like a sort of area of composition is that collegiality and collaboration because I think that so often in, in academia and even in comp, 47:00we're so siloed, you know we don't really we don't really work together, you know like, we we talk, and we bounce ideas off of each other, and I think we're more collaborative in some ways than a lot of other disciplines, , but in terms of our research and most of us write our own articles, and you know, don't really do a lot, and so I like that about Writing Centers. You know it's all about that constant conversation about writing, and so I'm glad to be back in a space like that again.

AW: Yeah, wonderful. I'm sure that Bronwyn and everyone else would be really happy to hear that too. So that, that's wonderful and I think that's a great place to uh, I guess end the interview there. But , yeah, I just really appreciate you taking time out of your day to , help us out with this project and, , yeah. Thank you so much.

LD: Well thank you for asking me.

AW: Yeah, and uh yeah, so say hi to Rob as well.

LD: I will do, and , I'll check with him about that, what they call that program too. With the police officers because, you know, it's a cool program.

AW: Yeah, yeah, if you happen to think of it, and uh yeah, whenever. It's fine.

LD: And are you what stage are you at now? Are you on the dissertation comps?

AW: Yeah I'm just about to do my , so, I've got a prospectus, I guess defense I'm kind of doing in early February, and so not really started writing on the diss yet, and that's going to be a scary kind of a thing. I have no idea of what that process entails but I'm going to learn quick (laugh) obviously.

LD: It's not so bad, you know. I'm a highly anxious person, and I am aware that this is still being recorded so (laughs).

AW: Sorry. I can stop recording, yeah, actually I'll do that.