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Spenser Secrest: Recording now. All right, it says it's going. So, I wanted just to ask real quick, you signed the consent form to be recorded. Okay, Bronwyn covered that. Okay, so when did you work at the University Writing Center?

Rebecca Hallman Martini: Oh, gosh, a date question. Let's see. I got to make sure I get this right. I believe it was, and I'm pulling up my CV, so it's from 2010 to 2012.

SS: OK, and you were an M.A. student then?

RHM Yes.

SS: And what positions did you hold?

RHM: So let's see, I mean, my first semester, and I think it's still this way 1:00now, but my first semester I just had my GTA ship assignment and the writing center. So I believe I was in there 20 hours a week. And then so that was, I'm trying to remember, I think that was my whole first year. And then the second year we taught. I taught one section of first year writing each semester and worked, you know, 10 hours a week or whatever in the writing center as part of my T.A. ship. And then that following summer, I also participated in the first dissertation writing retreat that UofL have ever had. And that was, you know, Bronwyn's first year as director, was my second year in the writing center. And then the other thing that I did and I believe this, I'm sure I could track down 2:00the dates if I looked through old CVs, but the other thing that I did, I was the first person to sort of start the satellite writing center on the Health Sciences Campus. And I believe that started also in my second year, so that would have been 2011, 2012. Yeah, so those were the positions that I that I held and I did online tutoring as well, and I think that started my first year and I'm not sure how much the Writing Center had done that before. But I remember still Adam, who I'm sure somebody has talked to for this project, I remember he came and talked to us early on in the year, to you know, pitch online tutoring to us. And so, you know, he gave us, like, all these reasons why it would be good, which suggested, you know, he was trying to recruit people or they didn't already have a lot of people doing it. So that was that was another capacity I 3:00worked in and the writing center.

SS: What were the like basic responsibilities I know you kind of talked about?

RHM: Yeah, sure, you know, we did primarily one-on-one tutoring. You know, almost all of the sessions were one-on-one. I don't think I did any group consulting. I remember doing at least one like workshop for the Speed School. But I don't I don't think that we did that much, just as, you know, the consultants. And then, you know, and I remember working with a variety of students from undergraduates and first year writing to graduate students, and then when I worked at the health sciences campus, that was also one-on-one. But 4:00it was you know, it felt like a radically different kind of work because it was almost exclusively for me working on dissertation or master's thesis projects, working on job materials a little bit as well. And then, you know, the dissertation writing retreat, I mean, I feel like that was really the first sort of writing event that the writing center had. I mean, my first year, I don't think we did much of that. We didn't have many, you know, workshops or events taking place in the writing center. And if we did, those were primarily organized through the assistant directors. And I don't really remember having many opportunities to participate in stuff like that, because from the moment I started, I mean, really, the whole reason I even started the master's program was because of my interest in writing centers. So I'm pretty sure I would have like tried to take advantage of any of those kinds of opportunities if we had them. And then, you know, we took the practicum class, so we had the class 5:00meeting once a week, and then my cohort, I think was a little bit unique. I mean, we were all very, very close. And one of the things that we did that I thought was really cool is a lot of us ended up using the writing center regularly after as part of the practicum, we were required to make a make an appointment. I remember like for that whole first year that we were all in there, we used to make appointments with one another pretty regularly, which I thought was kind of cool. So, you know, a lot of us use the writing center as well as, you know, being consultants there.

SS: Yeah, people in my year did that last semester, too, a little bit a little less since we're not as close due to, everything being online and socially distant.


RHM: Yeah.

SS: So who are the other tutors and where they called tutors and just how many were there?

RHM: Oh, I don't remember what they were called, but I did have, I do, I did and do have a very sort of particular interest in this. I did a presentation, the Watson Conference, I think it was 2012, on the terminology we use to define tutors. So, you know, I was actually kind of arguing against a consulting-client model because it seems so business oriented and kind of making a case for tutors or maybe we don't need to use tutors, but sort of move past consultant-client. So, I mean, I don't remember us having a strong consistency across the staff. I mean, I feel like client ended up getting used, consultant-client seems to get used a lot with W.C.Online, but we used tutortrac at least my first year. I 7:00can't remember. You'll have to ask him. I can't remember if Bronwyn came and how to start W.C.Online when he got there or if that came later. I've been using it now so long, I just can't even remember. But I believe in terms of how many of us there were, I believe there were 12 of us and I think 10 of us were first year M.A. students and two were second year M.A. students. But it was the first their first year of funding. So they you know, they had been in the program for a year but didn't have T.A. ship. And then there were two assistant directors and then associate director and then the director.

SS: So that's similar to what we're doing this year. So how are you trained to be a writing tutor?

RHM: Well, I first started in the writing center at Transylvania University when 8:00I was a sophomore, and so I kind of came into the position at UofL with some training. And even when I was at Transylvania, I was part of the first cohort to go through like the Writing Center practicum class. So the current director we had there created a class as one of the first things that he did. But that was a one credit course, so it was very small, it wasn't a whole lot of it wasn't nearly as rich as, let's see if I remember, is it 604? Is that the writing center?

SS: Yes.

RHM: Yeah, yeah. It wasn't as rich as that class. But then I also took that class. And I mean, you know, it was sort of traditional in that, you know, we read short pieces of writing center scholarship. We did a lot of readings from the Bedford St. Martin's guide. We did some projects, while we had to go in and, 9:00you know, as a writer and make an appointment ourselves. Gosh, man, I'm having trouble remembering most of the other sorts of things. That we did and they get all jumbled up with, like, the things I've assigned now since I've taught that class like so many times myself as a director. The other thing, though, that really stuck out to me about kind of my training, my development in the writing center was one of the things we did in that class is, we did do a video, you know, recording of a session and then had to transcribe a part of it. And so for me, that was really cool because I actually got to you know, not just sort of reflect on my memory of the session, but actually see what, see what happened, watch it again, see what happened in terms of body language and silences and 10:00words and things like that, and so, I mean, one of the things that I think was valuable about that kind of training was that I did really sort of start to see work in the writing center as something that was intellectually challenging and, you know, where you could sort of produce research from that. And then, I mean, I'm trying to think I don't think we had much continuing professional development. Beyond that practicum class, I don't remember doing much in the spring or the year after. I did do some regional conferences and that kind of thing, and those were valuable to my training because it helped me realize there was a much larger sort of field beyond just the single writing center. Do you 11:00want me to talk about, like, some of the sort of "rules" that I remember?

SS: Sure, that's fine.

RHM: So and I don't. These are sort of stuck with me, but now I'm a pretty serious like I argue against all of them, but, you know, we had to sort of the traditional historical approach of, you know, we were encouraged to be non-directive. I remember, this is before Bronwyn's time, but I remember, people being discouraged from speaking languages other than English and the writing center, which is something I think is extremely problematic

SS: Yes.

RHM: Now I know some people will, you know, come in and there are a lot of people who are, you know, either in the field or people who are, you know, multilingual writers themselves who will say, 'no, I' you know, 'I don't want to speak in my first language. I want to I want to talk and write in English.' 12:00That's different. But I remember there being some sort of, I don't remember if it actually came down as a rule or if it was just understood or if someone overheard, you know, people getting kind of yelled at for doing it, but I remember a sense that like, you know, we were sort of discouraged from working in language outside of English, which is so bad. And that may you know, again, I'm not, I don't have, like, a strong sense of exactly where that came from. But I do remember it being like part of the culture. I don't think we were so much as told, like we couldn't write on paper, but student paper, but I do remember it being very much sort of like the not kind of traditional non-directive approach. I'm trying to think if there is anything else like that. I don't think so, we did a lot of, you know, reading that, reading the paper out loud, either 13:00the writer or the consultant, which again is like, I think that's a good strategy, but it doesn't necessarily fit every session, but I'm pretty sure nearly all of us used that approach. So, again, there was like sort of a sense of that being part of part of the culture of the writing center. Yeah. I think that's most of what I remember in terms of like sort of the rules that we followed or the ways that we did the work in general.

SS: That's really interesting, the English the non-English rules, really shocking to me.

RHM: It was a very different time, pre-Bronwyn.

SS: Could you talk about what the structure of the program was at the time?


RHM: Like, do you mean? Like the English M.A. Program, or do you mean like do you mean by program, I guess?

SS: The English M.A. programs.

RHM: Yeah. I mean, let's see. I think it was, you know, maybe similar to how it is now in that people started and had the opportunity to focus in rhetoric and composition, literature, creative writing, you know, it seemed like we all had like pretty similar courses like that first semester with the intro to English studies in the writing center class. And then, you know, the second year with 602. But it seemed very, very much that, you know, all the new GTA's would work in the writing center 20 hours a week and then. You know, that whole first year 15:00and then people would teach for the first time the next year, most people just, you know, moved into teaching at two to there wasn't a lot of choice necessarily, you know, about, when you started teaching, but there was some choice about like I remember I think my second year and then I know years after that, because I remember visiting and seeing people that were not in their first year, like, I know that there were some times when other, you know, PhD students or other people would be in the assigned to the writing center, but they weren't assistant directors, so that, you know, that sort of changed. But I mean, I, at the time, I felt like it was a pretty good. A pretty good situation, you know, getting, having the stipend and the health insurance and not paying the fees, I believe, and, you know, doing the 20 hours a week, a lot of people took three 16:00classes. I think I had at least one semester where I took four. So sometimes people did that. It seemed like in my cohort, there were only, I think, two or three of us that were focused on rhetoric and composition, but it was, you know, and then I think it was still primarily literature, but then some creative writers as well, so it seemed like, you know, in the writing center, it wasn't a whole lot of people who were like, you know, wanting to stay in the field. But I had such a wonderful experience there and I always felt very much like the PhD students were very like encouraging and welcoming. I took, my very first fall semester, I took a class with Bruce Horner. And I remember like, knowing from the beginning that I, this was probably not a good idea because I was like way out of my league. Like, I had never taken a graduate class in rhetoric and composition. I was the only Master's student. But I still remember almost all 17:00the people that were in that class and they, they were just, they were so supportive and I really felt like I was able to like kind of, not necessarily form a cohort with them, but really like get a sense of the field and kind of feel, feel like I was part of the field or could be part of the field through my relationships with them and just through having the opportunities to, like, take classes with PhD students and learn from them. They were really experienced teachers. You know, I had never taught before, really. And we also, like there were a lot of opportunities for socializing. So, you know, we spent a lot of time, like the graduate students, spent a lot of time together and the graduate students and the faculty spent a lot of time together. And, you know, I've, my partner, I actually met him in the writing center at UofL, so we came in together at the same time. And, you know, we both went to different PhD 18:00programs, but in the same city. And then we've been at two other universities since. And we've nowhere ever found the kind of community that we had at UofL. You know, I mean, we, in our PhD programs, we did have good relationships with fellow graduate students, but there weren't the opportunities for graduate students and faculty to, like, socialize outside of like the classroom and so that was something that I think meant a lot to us. And we're always like sort of like searching for and we're like, you know, maybe we could we could try to create that kind of culture at some point, you know, where we are. But I had no idea how rare that was until I, until I left and saw like, I mean, you're lucky if you get, like, one opportunity a semester for that kind of thing, whereas we 19:00were doing it like at least once a month with, you know, the Watson Endowment and all of that. We had, it felt like there were always like invited speakers. And every time there was a job candidate, there was like an after party. And it was just, you know, we had a lot of fun and we really felt like we got to know people both sort of in the formal program and outside of it.

SS: That's been missing a bit from my own experience.

RHM: I've heard it changed from some people, yeah. Especially now, I mean, now it's just not even possible, unfortunately.

SS: Well even just for me, talking to the second years, they're all like very close and it's like, yeah, there's maybe like three people in my own year that I have, and nowhere near to that extent. Just, that's cause of, you know, the pandemic.


RHM: Yeah, because you spend, I mean, we spent so much time, like specifically the Writing Center cohort that I came in with, we spent so much time in that like staff room. And so, like, we were always just hanging out or rehashing sessions and talking about coursework. And so we just got to be really close. And I remember, like, again, you know what? I was, the next writing center I was at, which was the University of Houston, where I did my Ph.D. program. There was no like staff room. And I remember it drove me nuts because I was like, this is so essential to developing community and also like professional development. But there was not that space and there has not been that space at either the writing centers that I've directed since. And it really bothers me because, again, that was that was such a valuable, you know, element of my, you know, my development, as you know, as a consultant, and I just remember like that being sort of like 21:00my comfortable, you know, spot on campus. And so it doesn't seem like it should be a big deal. But a lot of writing centers are so under resourced and, you know, they don't think that things like that are so necessary. And I wouldn't have realized it either if I hadn't had that experience.

SS: I can't even imagine. That would have been like without the back room.

RHM: Yeah.

SS: So what population of students did you work with?

RHM: I mean, I feel like it was all over the place. I mean, I remember. Well, when I was in the health sciences campus, I worked with a lot of international students and a lot of students in the sciences, I remember I was working with this one man, he was like definitely at least twice my age, really nice guy. I 22:00met with him weekly, but he was doing a dissertation on, I can't remember what it was now, I've blocked it out or I've done so many other things since, I just, it's gone. I remember his face, but it was either like computer science or engineering or something that was, you know, within the sciences somehow, like there was some sort of a medical connection. But it was like bioengineering or something. And I just, I remember, I was just like every, you know, we just like sort of chipped away at that thing for a whole semester. At least, I might have met with him the whole year, I can't remember, but that was, you know, again, like really a pretty cool experience to be doing that as a second year Master's student, like I hadn't worked on a dissertation, yet here I was working with this other, like, much older person in a field like way outside of my realm. So I remember working with graduate students like that, students and nursing some. 23:00And then you know, a handful of undergraduates. I mean, I feel like we worked with a lot of first year writing students and then other than that, just sort of across the board. I did work with a lot of people in the. Oh. What is it, like the professional development program for like law enforcement and firefighters?

SS: Yeah, I'm blanking on what that's called myself.

RHM: But we had a lot of people from that program who use the writing center. I remember working with a handful of multilingual writers like that was definitely an interest of mine that developed through my work in the writing center and sort of early on. And so I think it, probably at least a third or so of the students I worked with were in that category. Yeah, and I mean, across all 24:00disciplines, too,

SS: It's still the set up we've got going. Could you describe what you remember about working with writers, like what was rewarding or what was a challenge?

RHM: Yes.

SS: It hasn't been blocked out?

RHM: It hasn't, but, you know, the thing is, I've just continued to do the work way past that. So it's really hard for me to, like, remember exactly which experiences were like in which writing center at what time. You know, if anything, my focus on writing centers has, like, grown exponentially since then. So I've just tried to remember, like, you know, what specifically happened there. I mean, I always, I just really like and I still do. And I remember, you know, from the beginning, really liking the one-on-one scenario, and it felt 25:00like I mean, not all sessions were great, but oftentimes you were working with students who are making this decision to be here, or there, and you were able to do some kind of valuable work to help them. And whether that was actually like revising a paragraph in a really meaningful way or helping them work through sort of some sort of sentence level thing on the entire like final read through of their paper or submit, you know, an admissions essay for a graduate program or just sort of like, let them know, like, you know, hopefully everything was going to be okay, that they could do the writing, you know, even if it was just sort of a confidence boost or just sort of like letting them vent about something. I mean, it almost always felt like there was something productive about the session and students often really expressed gratitude to. So it seemed 26:00so immediately rewarding. And then the other thing that I remember that I've gotten away from now and I've found ways to sort of work around this, I guess, but the other thing, I really, really struggled when I first started teaching because I really hated grading, and that's because I had spent five years working in a writing center where I didn't have to, you know, play that role, I could just sort of be a peer or maybe a slightly more experienced peer, you know, because I know there's still the power dynamic, right? Even if your peers, you're still and you're often still sort of put into that expert position by the writer, even if you try to resist it. But still, you know, you're just sitting down, you know. Yes, you've got the larger context of the assignment and the grade and the professor. But it's really just about, like all you have to do is focus on what that writer is trying to do and trying to help support them through their goals. And none of the other stuff. You know, the only way the 27:00other stuff really matters is, is sort of through that the voice of the writer, you know, so if the writer's really concerned about the grades, like, you kind of have to be concerned, too, but otherwise you just don't even have to think about it. And I remember hating that part of teaching. I still hate that part of teaching, but, you know, you've got all this other stuff that has to surround it. And I also really always loved, you know, having conversations about writing. I remember spending a lot of time just asking students to talk about the writing and taking notes and then being so amazed at what they had said and just sort of that moment of realization that, hey, they actually like had more to say or more ideas than they realized. So I think those were some of the some 28:00of the rewarding parts of the things that I really liked about it. Did you ask about the not so good parts to you?

SS: Yeah, if you want to go into that, that's fine.

RHM: I don't know, I mean, I, even if it was a bad session, I never, there was really nothing that ever made me not like it. I do remember one session that kind of stuck with me that was not bad, but just sort of jarring. I was meeting with this woman and she was a returning student, so she again was like much older than me. And she was writing like a personal essay of some sort. And we were doing the thing where, you know, I said, 'do you want me to read it out loud or do you want to?' And I was reading out loud and she was talking about, like her daughter, I think it was her daughter in this relationship with this guy, they were in high school or something, and as the parents, they decided it 29:00was too serious and so the parents, like, made them break up or whatever. And then, so she's writing through this, and then all of a sudden she's writing about her daughter's ex-boyfriend's suicide. And I'm like reading it out loud. And I'm like... You know, I just remember it being, just not knowing, not being prepared for it, not expecting, she didn't tell me, like, 'just so you know, this is about,' you know, I didn't get that preface. I don't remember if I didn't ask specifically, I'm sure I asked, like, 'what are you working on and what do you want to focus on,' because I always did. But I remember that being just really like just feeling very weird, reading something so intimately, like personal and difficult, the somebody else's story out loud. And so like that was one of the moments I was like going back to that break room and being like, 'guess what I just did,' you know? So that was that was something that, you know, but it still wasn't bad. I mean, we still worked through things and I still sort of try to sympathize with what she went through. And it was still like a good session. But I just remember it being difficult. And the other thing 30:00I remember, too, and this kind of gets back to the culture, but this was my second year when Bronwyn was there, I remember him making a really, really big deal, out of, from the beginning saying, you know, we're not going to tolerate anybody ever laughing at or, you know, making fun of or any anything like that related to writers or what they're working on, because, you know, when they come in here, that is their biggest fear. And I remember that just sort of like thinking kind of through unintentional sort of joking that maybe happened before and probably that I did, too, just not really thinking that it was that harmful, not like in front of the students, but in that sort of private space. And he was just like, 'we're not going to do that kind of thing anywhere, ever, it's never 31:00okay to do that.' And I remember that being sort of an important cultural shift too, just in terms of like our attitude and our understanding of student writers and how they were coming to us and how we needed to respect them as well. And before that, I don't think that we had had that that kind of respect for student writers that he really insisted on from, like day one.

SS: Yeah, I remember him saying that in orientation. He was like, you know, 'I put up with a lot, but one thing we will not put up with is mocking writers' and things like that.

RHM: Yeah.

SS: So how did you approach sessions and working with writers, are there any strategies that you learned that you still use in your teaching?

RHM: You know, I think. Building rapport early on, like, you know, trying to 32:00say, and this was also something when I went to other writing centers and I observed or overheard sessions, I realized, 'oh, not everybody does this.' You know, just trying to have a conversation before you get right into it, you know, just saying, 'how's it going? What are you working on? What's it for? Tell me a little bit about your project.' You know, 'what do you want us to work on' that sort of like negotiating the agenda kind of thing? I mean, these are things that I feel like I learned from early on and almost always did, but then realized not everybody does that, not everybody learns to do it that way, so, and then I you know, I realized I feel like that's part of what really led to student writers feeling more comfortable and, you know, ensuring that we were going to have a good, a good session or you found out right away that it was going to be probably difficult or you were working with somebody really resistant. So, you 33:00know, that's a strategy, you know, that we still, I still talk about one of the things we just did at our staff meeting was talking about, you know, how do you do that or what are some ways that you can do that kind of work and online tutoring, right? Especially when it's not in real time, so you don't have another person there. But we got feedback that, sometimes some of the writers felt like, I don't think it was necessarily that people were being rude, but just, something about the tone or being a little bit insensitive or something, and I'm pretty sure it was just that they were just focused on the business, you know, and not realizing to take that extra time to kind of be conversational and be friendly. So that's something that I think is still really important that we still do. And I still tend to ask a lot of questions. I know I did that a lot before, just sort of always like asking questions and really trying to get trying to get students to take, like, as much autonomy as they could. I think my strategy and my approach to that has changed. I mean, in part, you know, in more 34:00experience as an instructor, but I also think because, you know, learning more about the field and especially like the relatively recent, maybe it's 2018 now, article by Harry Denny, John Nordlof, and Lori Salem, , I believe that's on working class students in the Writing Center Cross Institutional Project, where they interviewed student writers and found that, you know, specifically among working class students, you know, they kind of seemed like they were indifferent towards their writing center experience, like they didn't find it to be all that helpful. And one of the reasons it had to do with, you know, the lack of directness and sort of the lack of attention to sentence level issues and so and the sense that sometimes consultants knew but they were sort of withholding or, 35:00you know, didn't want to like give them, give the writer too much. So my views on that have really changed just because I think I have a better awareness of, of different backgrounds that students come from. And, you know, knowing that sometimes they don't, they just don't have it. You can ask them as many questions as you want. They're not going to get it. Whereas before I think I was still very much like, 'no, you can't be directive ever in the writing center.' And, you know, I just, I didn't ever feel comfortable with that approach, so that, I think, is something that's, changed a little bit. What else did I do? I mean, I did a lot of the reading out loud or having the writer read out loud, which I think mostly worked, worked okay, and then, I took a lot of notes during sessions and always, you know, when writers were talking and I would always give them the notes at the end and I think I tried to kind of summarize things or, you know, create sort of a plan for what they would do when they left. I think that was something I did a lot, that, you know, I continue to sort of encourage 36:00and continue to do when I when I conference with students now. And I always wrote on the paper, I mean, not like corrections, but I and, I always ask, like, 'do you mind if I' and I always use a pencil, you know? But, as I'm reading, it's so hard for me not to do that and so I think it was something that I did, although I do think it was strongly encouraged that first year. I can't remember for sure, but, you know, I try to be as like minimal as I can. But, you know, especially when I'm like trying to teach something or show something, I always have to be engaging with the text itself. So that's something that I think I did there to varying degrees. But now I think of that primarily as sort of like a personal preference kind of thing. I don't think everybody has to do it, but I think for some people, you know, it may make sense as long as they're mindful 37:00about how they're doing it and they ask permission and that kind of thing.

SS: What types of issues in writing did students ask about and then what do you think the writing center did effectively in terms of teaching writing?

RHM: Man, I mean, I feel like students, I mean, it was such a range of things, I mean, we had people that would come in with no ideas and just a prompt and want to brainstorm, which I always loved. I loved sessions like that because then it was them mostly talking to me, taking notes and all of this like opportunity. So it was a lot of that I feel like. And then, you know, I mean, there was a decent amount of students, as there always are, no matter where you are, I feel like, what writing center or who it is. I mean, a lot of students coming in wanting 38:00sentence level or grammatical help, but, you know, eventually I sort of learned that sometimes, and I never struggled with that, I never felt like that was my primary focus when I worked with writers, even if they came in saying they wanted to work on it, because students often lack a vocabulary for talking about writing, and so they just say that, you know, or they've been told that that's what they need to work on. So, you know, I feel like I did a fair amount of that. But often working on things like organization, reverse outlining kinds of things, topic sentences, thesis statements are a big thing, you know, use of sources to some extent, although I think that actually has become more of an issue, or a complication now than it was at first, like, I never, I mean, in the health sciences, like satellite rings that are maybe a little bit, but I don't think I ever remember, working with students on computers in the writing center 39:00at UofL, like I think we always had hard copies and students were always able to print, but I think we always requested that, like, I have so few memories, none really, they still could have happened, but I don't think I have any memories working with students on laptops, whereas now that's like such the norm. That's something I'm always thinking, like, I would love to do a study to actually look at like how does working with no screens, just with, you know, hard copies of the text, you know, how does that compare to what happens on a computer, because that was one thing as a director that that, you know, my tutors in my writing center were struggling with, you know, saying that like they'd be working with a student and they would be talking through a change and the student would type verbatim what they said, like over and over again, and I was like, oh, that's so 40:00interesting, because I never experienced that. I've never had that happen, but I really liked that part. I'm trying to, you asked me what sorts of things we worked on. So, I mean, I do feel like it was a lot of idea development, not a lot of like research, you know, or and I feel like I've now I see a lot of people who are like spreading their sessions, like on the computer, like doing research or, you know, looking at sources or that kind of thing. And we did a fair amount of you know, the other thing, I think it was my first time there I really got to see a lot of like different kinds of assignments and lots of teacher feedback. So there are a fair number of people who would bring in rough drafts or final papers that they were revising with their professors' feedback on it. And we would be focusing on like trying to understand what changes they 41:00needed to make and like implementing those changes. We did that fairly often. And then your second question was, how do they teach writing, how do we teach writing?

SS: What did you think it did, the writing center that is, did effectively in terms of teaching writing?

RHM: I mean, I feel like in general, just sort of the one-on-one attention that students get is very different than what they usually get in the classroom, I don't know, I mean, I didn't know how much it was, part of the culture there, really, when I was there, I mean, maybe people did it some, but it was not a huge part of the program, nor has it been common practice anywhere else I've been, but, you know, writing teachers, if anything, this may happen in first year writing. Beyond that, it seems like it would never happen. Professors don't 42:00do one-on-one conferencing with their students. They rarely give feedback on rough drafts. So just that one-on-one attention to writing and supporting writers, rather than using feedback to justify a grade or something. I mean, I think that's a very particular kind of teaching writing that students aren't getting other places very often. And just and all of that time spent on talk. I mean, then even if they do have a conference, when I conference with students, I mean, not now, but when I would teach a lot of classes with a lot of students, you know, we'd have like a 15 minute conference versus a forty five minute meeting, so just the level of one-on-one attention, you give somebody and also, you know, sort of encouraging and letting the student kind of determine how that time spent or really the focus being on that. You know, I think some of the most 43:00valuable teaching that we did also was in helping students develop and realize the ideas that they had and then how to get them from their, from their mind or their speech into their writing or helping them realize that, like what they're saying is not actually what, you know, they're writing suggests, so how do we 44:00change that so that it matches? Because usually what they say is better than what they've written, so that's a very important part of teaching writing, I think that students don't usually get other places. What else do we do? And just sort of like being willing to work with students as much as they wanted. I mean, I'm trying to remember how often I think students could make like three appointments a week maybe max? Is that what it is now?

SS: Yeah, I think that's right.

RHM: Yeah, that's a lot, actually. So, you know, being able to give them that much attention if they want it or when they feel like they need it, and some of them really seem to. And some of them, it's like they seem to be sort of using the writing center as a crutch, but, that, too, I think that that kind of like ongoing support is meaningful, and I mean, I also really agree with Bronwyn's ideas or, you know, concept of agency in the way that we're able to really, like, encourage and support student agency in the writing center in ways that they don't really find very often in other environments, and I think part of that is like the peer-to-peer non-evaluative, you know, relationship that you can that you can be in, where, you know, there's something that matters more, the center of the session and the conversation is not about, always about like, you trying to meet my expectations like that, that's not, which it's hard to get out of that if you're if you're teaching a class meeting with a student, and so that's just not at all, you know, the primary focus of the Writing Center, and 45:00so, I mean, I think students can develop a sense of themselves and their ability to act and, you know, do things through their writing, I think that I and I hope that that's something that's very much empowered in the writing center. And if it's not, then I don't think we're doing we're doing things the way we should be. Most of the time.

SS: So we've talked a bit about this already, so anything else you wanted to say about what types of writing you worked with or anything like that?

RHM: I could talk a little bit about genre. I mean, I remember working on a lot 46:00of personal statements for, you know, scholarships and graduate programs and that kind of thing. And a lot, but a lot of argument based work. I don't remember doing at least, you know, when I took the practicum, I don't remember doing a whole lot of training and, nor do I remember doing a lot of tutoring in, really in areas outside of the humanities, I mean, I did some through the health sciences and then like, I remember doing a little bit of like workshop for engineering, but I don't remember, like, seeing that kind of writing a lot. Like, I remember a lot of a lot of sessions being focused on like thesis development, which is very much a humanities genre convention. So I think a lot of what we did when I was there was focused on that kind of writing.

SS: Can you describe what you remember of the tutoring space, the administrative 47:00and tutors offices, and then just what you and the other tutors did during downtime while you were waiting for appointments? I know it just kind of threw a lot at you with that.

RHM: No, that's okay. That's okay. Yeah, no, I remember. I mean, it was. Is the second floor of the library or the third floor?

SS: It's changed now, so were on the first floor.

RHM: I know you are now, but the old one, do you remember or are there any? Yeah, so I it was on the second or the third floor of the library and, you know, we had the front desk and the, a couple chairs, I think, where people could, you know, would wait. So it's really nice because again, as a director, I didn't realize this was a problem, but when you don't have a spot for staff to sit and you don't have somebody kind of monitoring who's coming in, then you have students sometimes who will just like, sort of like be on the hunt for a consultant who they can just like go ask for more help like we used to, we had a 48:00couple of people we had to ask to leave because we, they already had their full number of appointments and they, you know, but they would still just like wait and try to catch somebody in between sessions, which is like, not fair, but there is no way to, it was really hard to monitor at that, so I really appreciated having that separate space, you know. It felt very professional to do that. It felt like there was a lot of respect around what we were doing. And then the director's office was there and the associate director's office was there. I think the assistant directors had an office to, sort of like in that hallway before you got to the main tutoring room. And I remember a huge change when Bronwyn got student artwork to be put in that space, before we didn't have that, and I remember that change being something that was just like, 'wow, this is so nice to have,' but then the tutoring room was, it was good, actually, I 49:00mean, it was a huge room and we had this huge, window like the whole back wall was a big window, which was really nice, but it was, you know, small circular tables with two chairs, relatively well spaced apart. I think there were some computers along the, along the side somewhere, I mean, there must have been, but I just don't remember them being very relevant, which is so, like I said, it's so weird to me now, It's so funny to think that, but it's true. And then. Beyond that, there was a big table like conference table where I think Bronwyn used to teach 604 when he was teaching it, but our 604 class met in another classroom, 50:00so, but that was I don't really remember how he used that space, to be honest. But it was a big conference table. And then, you know, at the very back was the break room, I guess, and we had a couple small tables and a couple computers in there. I think there was a couch, there was a small refrigerator. We could put our lunch. And like I said, I mean, I just I spent so much time there and we would like I would I would go to the library and study in there, you know, instead of in the library just because it was, it was it was my comfortable spot on campus and, you know. And so and like I said, I mean, we all spent a lot of time in there, and I think we were there in between our sessions, but I think we were there in between classes. People just, I mean, it was always full of people. It wasn't always the easiest to get things done, because it, there were 51:00there was almost always conversation going on. Like I said, I feel like that was really important to how we all developed. And, you know, I mean, we talked about difficult sessions, we talked about good sessions and we also talked a lot about our coursework and, you know, what we were working on in terms of our own writing and just everything I mean, it was very much sort of this like professional and social space that we kind of moved across those without any real hesitations or concerns because, I mean, at least this is my thinking, I mean, I don't know what everybody else thought, well, I think it was pretty well shared, I mean, you know, I think it was telling that we invited everybody who was in that first cohort to our wedding, my husband and I, and we got married in 52:00Louisville and it was 2015. So, you know, a few years later, we were, we got engaged like, you know, after we left, so we started dating and stuff. But while we were there and everybody, like, knew us as a couple and knew that we were both going to Houston for graduate programs, but I remember us having that thought, like, you know, I was like, I would really like to invite, you know, those 12 people because, you know, they were they were so, so special to both of us for those you know, well, at least that whole first year, I mean, and we still had a sense of community beyond that, but it was different because we were only there 10 hours a week and, you know, there were some new M.A. Students and we didn't have all our classes with them, so there was still something, but it wasn't you know, it wasn't the same as that first group, so, yeah, so even when we disagreed or we, you know, we didn't all necessarily seem like we came from the same sort of like, you know, experiences, we didn't all share the same 53:00academic interests or anything, but we just all were really able, I think, to come together around the fact that we were doing writing center work and we were first year graduate students and we were going to be spending like 20 hours at least a week in that space and so, I just I feel like and so ever since that I've always been really, I feel like that was a place for, like the unofficial culture of the writing center, so like one of my, one of my areas of interest, like one of my, one of my exams as a doctoral student was in folklore, and I think so much of why I was interested in that had to do with, like, at least personally, how to do, like, my personal experience, like in that space, like, it really resonated with me to think about, like, what's meaningful about and what you can learn and develop in terms of community in the unofficial space, because, you know, that wasn't where the sessions were happening, you know, the 54:00director is not part of that space and there's no real, you know, record of what's happening, but it was so crucial still, I feel like, to all of our, all of our development, or at least my, my development. And without that, I think I would have been missing something really huge in my graduate experience. And again, it's one of those spaces that I've been like since searching for and never found anything like it anywhere else I've been.

SS: Did you work in the university writing center connect to your teaching coursework or scholarship at the time?

RHM: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I, you know, I think in some ways it had helped prepare me to teach, although, I don't, I think that's a, and I've learned that that is a very false assumption to make. Cassie was in my cohort, Cassie Book.

SS: Oh!

RHM: Yeah, yeah. So we started together. And so I know her, her dissertation 55:00work, you know, has sort of looked, looked at that, and she's shared some, you know, I've looked at that in my own research a little bit, and she shared some research with me that helped me realize, you know, there's this assumption that working in the writing center just like, automatically like transfers and prepares you for teaching and it doesn't necessarily, or there's not a lot of evidence that suggests that it does. And I don't necessarily feel like it did, except maybe giving feedback to students and I think it really helped me think about like students as writers and as people outside of my classroom, outside of my expectations, and so I've always since I, you know, been in it, it's hard work to get students to, like, take some ownership over what they're doing or like I try to give them choice and like at least half of them always hate it, you know, they're like too anxious, they just want to know what I want. But I feel like that's a sense of how to understand writers that I really developed in the writing center, in working with writers outside of that, you know, 56:00professor-student context, so that's definitely contributed to my development as a teacher, and then, like almost every seminar paper that I did was connected to the writing center somehow, and my master's thesis was an analysis of virtual writing center sessions, and looking at how the format of the session impacted the, the content or, you know, of that feedback, so using either a letter format or marginal comment bubbles, like, how did the format change the kind of content and I interviewed consultants too, as part of that and so, you know, that was my Master's thesis, so that was directly connected to my work in the writing center. And yeah, I mean, so I feel like they were always intertwined and they 57:00have since been, I mean, I have a book that's an ethnographic study of a writing center, that's revision of my dissertation, you know, that's coming out, hopefully this fall, so, you know, I, it's always I mean, I feel like at UofL's writing center is where I really started to, like, understand the writing center as a place of research and really got to, like, explore it and that was also where I really first got introduced to the larger field of rhetoric and composition. But it's only since sort of melded together more for me, I would say, and I think, I think it was valuable to have in in my you know, in that practicum class, the opportunity to engage in some kind of, you know, empirical research, and so, most of the time when I've taught writing center practicum like classes myself, I try to incorporate or give students an opportunity to do some, some research, even if it's small, you know, a survey or an interview or 58:00something connected, or analysis of a session, you know, something that's connected to their work in the writing center, or our work in the writing center that is, like, you know, based on based on their experience and then to use that to help them like, you know, rethink what's going on in the scholarly conversations, you know, critically reflect on their practice, that kind of thing, so that's also something that I think was valuable for me there that has since, you know, continue to grow.

SS: And you mentioned this already, so would you say your work in the university writing Center influenced, your teaching scholarship or administration, since leaving?

RHM: Yeah, completely. I mean, I started my PhD program kind of knowing I was 59:00very interested in writing centers, but also very open to, like, not doing a dissertation on writing centers, but you know, it's where I ended up and not all of my coursework, but, you know, a lot of it did sort of connect to the writing center, but yeah, I mean it one hundred percent did and I think if I had had a negative experience with the writing center, I don't think I would have gone on to a PhD program. I mean, honestly, I didn't love, you know, I didn't love teaching that much. I like teaching, but I like the writing center a lot more. I'm a lot more interested in the work that we do in the writing center, in all of the different kinds of possibilities there are in the writing center. I would say just as much as like that subfield. I'm really interested in writing across the curriculum and writing in the discipline, so that's something you can really explore through the writing center. So, I mean, yeah, that experience, like 100 percent set me up for my whole, the whole trajectory of my career and I've, I've never, you know, left writing centers. I didn't I wasn't. I started in the 60:00writing center the first year of my PhD program. Everybody did. And it was kind of a weird model. We all started as online studio, facilitators attached to hybrid first year writing classes, so we were like facilitating peer review groups within online first year writing classes and some writing in the disciplines courses, but, so I did that my first year, and then my second year I didn't really have much connection to the writing center, and then, oh gosh, I don't think it was until, like, my, my fourth year that I, was like one of the first, like fellows or something, so I did a lot of work with developing the graduate student writing center resources, but my research was taking place there, so I, you know, I sort of was always and I and I had a summer assignment 61:00there, too, so, you know, I never really left the writing center, after being there at UofL, so.

SS: Do you remember the administrative staff when you worked at UofL's writing center, then just what do you remember about working with them?

RHM: Yeah, I mean, Robin, sorry, it's so funny because Robin's retirement and the retirement of the like admin assistant and the front desk person at my undergraduate writing center, she also recently retired. And so I was, thought I was going to confuse their names for a second, but I yeah, I remember Robin. It is Robin, right?

SS: I don't think so.

RHM: Do you remember, did, I guess you didn't know her? She's been gone, for 62:00several years now, I guess. But anyway, she was at the front desk. And yeah, I mean, she was wonderful to work with, she was always really, really helpful and again, sort of, you know, the first point of contact. And I and, Mary Rosner was a director, you know, my first year and I had mostly okay experiences with her. You know, I don't know what all to say. She was, she was okay. Adam was, Adam Robinson was great, he was the associate director and he was just very like, I mean, we all felt very comfortable with him. He helped me with my Ph.D. applications and was just very, very approachable guy. I think we all felt 63:00really comfortable with him. We were all a little bit intimidated by Mary Rosner. I mean, I think in part because we were all first year Master's students, but she also didn't have, the, we'll just say, like the sort of like personality that Bronwyn has, where you just feel, he's just not the same as, as most faculty, in terms of his like, genuine, you know, approachability that, at least I remember a lot of us felt really comfortable with him right away and were really excited to work with him there. I remember the assistant directors as well, and they were great. I mean, I don't think I had a clear sense exactly of like what their role was other than sort of helping with some things. They kind of had special projects. I think they let a couple of the 604 classes. But I don't remember like. You know, they kind of felt just like another level of staffing, it was, it wasn't really clear. They didn't feel the same as like the 64:00assistant directors of comp who were more like mentors for us. And that wasn't anything against them. It just didn't seem like it was set up that way. And I can't remember the second year, who, who those people were, because I think they were one year positions, I think Ashly Bender was one and I can't remember the other person. My first year was Laura Detmering and Barrie Meadows were the two assistant directors. And then, you know, we didn't have, like the online Writing Center person and the Health Sciences Campus, that was me and I was only doing like five hours a week or four hours a week, it didn't start as a full, full position. I think that was what the staff was like. I think that was the structure.

SS: Could you talk a little bit more about that and just how the writing center changed?


RHM: Like from the first year to the second year?

SS: Yeah, yeah.

RHM: Yes, I mean, I think I was you know, my first year stands out so much more vibrantly because I was there twice as often and I wasn't trying to figure out what the hell teaching was, you know, I feel like, you know, the first year of teaching is so chaotic, in a lot of ways, but I just, I just remember it feel, you know, from everything from getting artwork on to the walls to being able to call the director by his first name, you know, and he, he had us. I think we had like a beginning of the semester and at the end of the semester thing, I think we had like pizza once and we were at, went to his house, Bronwyn's house once, so doing things like that, I think it just it has a, and that's also something 66:00that I've really tried to, like, take into my own, you know, role as, as directors, doing things like that and realizing and I mean, my first writing center director was very much like this too, just feeling like we were like colleagues, instead of like a tier, you know, like a tiered organizational structure. So, I mean, he always Bronwyn, always made us, I mean, he always seemed to really value what we were doing. I think he started a blog, too, didn't he?

SS: Yeah.

RHM: Do you guys have a blog? Yeah. I think he started that and had us all, we were all supposed to like write one, at least one entry, a semester or something like that. I can't remember, but

SS: Yes, I was just going to say that's how we do it per semester, yeah.

RHM: Yeah, yeah. So I think he started that, which is even just opening up avenues for us to, like talk about our tutoring, or being interested in what we're doing, you know, and he really had a genuine interest in that from the 67:00beginning. And that was very like, clear to us. Let's see, I mean, it was also weird because I think the new cohort, like, after mine, I think it was I think they were only like three to five people like new, new T.A.s, so it was a much smaller, smaller first group you'll have to ask Bronwyn, he'll remember, I'm sure, how many there were, so that was a much smaller group, but I remember thinking it was neat that there were like also other PhD students who are working in there, so just having, like more of a range across, you know, experience level in terms of the staffing was something, I just always appreciated that because I felt like I could learn so much from the people who were ahead of me in the program, so I appreciated that as well. And just sort of 68:00the respect that Bronwyn clearly had for writers, and again, I'm not saying that that wasn't there before, but he just really went out of his way to, like, make it known, and so I feel like people's, and some people did have really bad experiences. I think maybe it was sort of a personality thing, but there were some people that were really, really hurt by things that were said or done. You know, during my first year, again, I didn't have a lot of those kinds of direct experiences, but I think there was a lot of sort of miscommunication based on different personality types and Bronwyn was just a really good fit for the kind of work that was going on in the writing center and the people that were, that were working in there. So it just, it felt really like a cultural, culture shift and a lot of ways.

SS: And what technology was available or used there, and then just was it used 69:00more for writing or administrative work?

RHM: Like I said, I mean, I'm telling you, I have, I can picture so many faces and so many spaces and I can picture it, within that there are like, not a lot of computers. I mean, just at all, and that's the only thing, that and a printer, I mean, the printer was a big deal, because I remember, like lots of students, you know, how to start off by printing off their work, but, I don't remember knowing what the what the administrators did, like I know that they had computers in their offices, but like, I don't ever remember them using the technology. I mean, and tutor track kind of sucked, I mean, I don't know if you've ever seen that. Hopefully, it's like gone, forever, but, you know, it wasn't very good, not that is like something to brag about, but tutor track was not, not very user friendly, so we didn't do anything on there and I mean, the virtual writing center and stuff, like, all we did is, I think there 70:00was a, there was a UofL writing center email that Adam, like, oversaw, and if we had an online session, he would email it to us, and then we would email our feedback, and then he would send it to the students, so, you know, there was no synchronous stuff, at all. There were no, no videos, I mean, again, we did the blog, but, I don't I don't even remember including a picture, I mean, with mine, so, yeah, I mean, we just did not use technology, at all, I mean, I have no memories of that. I hope I'm remembering correctly, but it's striking to me now, how rarely I feel like I used a computer.

SS: That's interesting, definitely different.


RHM: Yeah, it was a long time ago, kind of, I mean, you know, we're talking like 10, 11 years ago, right? 20, 2011 or 2010-2011 was my first year, so it was long, it was quite, I mean, I remember Bronwyn was, I think he taught for the first time or maybe it wasn't the first time, but it was like very, like, hot, exciting class. He taught the like, you know, digital writing or technology, you know, writing and technology, he's taught some sort of a class in that area and I remember it being like, 'wow,' like it was very cutting edge, you know? But I think it was like the first class like that to be offered at UofL, so, you know. And we didn't have any of that in our training and we didn't see anything. I mean, maybe we saw like a poster, but I don't even think, I don't think we saw any text with images, really. It was all very like alphabetic text that we worked on. We didn't work on video texts or websites or any of that. I mean, at 72:00least I don't, I don't remember working on anything like that, presentations sometimes, but that was it.

SS: And you mentioned taking like walk in appointments, just how did students sign up ordinarily, like online, through phone?

RHM: Yeah, that's something I don't really know. I mean, I feel like we did like check the schedule, and students often did schedule appointments, but we also had a fair number of walk-ins. I don't know how often they use the phone and I don't know how often they walked into the writing center and made appointments because Robin did, took care of all of that, yeah.

SS: Okay, and then was there other work that you did for the university writing center, like class presentations or workshops? I know you mentioned one and then, or creating resources, like handouts or anything?


RHM: Yeah, we did a workshop, I did it with the assistant director, for engineering, on, you know, the swales moves, the cars model, we did that, and, I think I did, I think I did a handful of the whole like, you know, do you guys still have bookmarks?

SS: Yeah.

RHM: Yeah, take a stack of bookmarks and go to a first year writing class or whatever class and do a presentation about the writing center. We all did that a fair amount of times, but, I don't, I do not remember, I do not remember doing a lot of other workshop like things, I mean, we might have, but again, I think 74:00maybe the like assistant and associate directors tended to do that. I don't think they brought us into that very often, if at all. Was there another part of your question or were you just asking what other sorts of things that I did? Oh, handouts. I don't, I don't even, maybe we did have them, but I can't even remember, really having handouts. We didn't have the online resources, that that I know for sure. We did not have that. I think that all came in with Bronwyn, too. I don't I don't think we had much of that stuff, you know, I mean, surely we probably did use a Purdue owl or we told students about the Purdue owl for, maybe like that's how we used computers, like, if anything, but I don't remember I don't remember having like or feeling like we had any sort of like database of resources that, whether it was hard copy or online, I could be misremembering, maybe we did have hard copy stuff, but I don't remember any, I don't remember 75:00it, if we did.

SS: Okay, and then, did you want to talk more about your second year? I want to be mistaken, but you mentioned starting to work at a, I don't want to say satellite campus, but yeah, if you wanted to just talk about starting that or anything?

RHM: Yeah, I mean, I don't remember how I got to do it, but I remember I was very excited about it. And like I said, it was just four or five hours a week and they had like a room for me, to use, and there was a computer in there, and a little table. It was a nice space. And I remember I took the bus, like there, one afternoon a week, and I think it was sort of a trial, like we had never had anybody there before, but I know it continued because I talked with, Tika (Lamsal) about it, because he, he took over the position and, but I was almost 76:00always booked, and I really liked it, like it was hard, it was challenging. I remember like coming home exhausted, you know, which happened a lot in the writing center, I mean, it's hard work, but, when I was working on, like, it was almost all graduate level work, so I was always, like, super tired. I can't remember three or four hours of it, you know, back to back. So, yeah, I mean, I didn't have a lot of direct interactions with anybody in that, school, really, that I remember, I just remember working with, you know, I have, I have some pretty strong memories of the people that I worked with there, and I remember feeling like it was a very necessary resource and that students were really grateful, to have me there. I had a lot of repeat, you know, repeat appointments 77:00with people that, either every week or every week for a while. I remember sometimes working with people for like almost two hours, you know, if I didn't have another appointment. So I remember thinking it was a very good, like a very good experience, a very, a very much needed, resource there, and they, they seemed very grateful, like, you know, the people in the office that I was in, they all seemed very grateful to have, to have me there as well, so I just, I just remember it being very much like, people applying to med school, people working on, you know, scholarships related to that, people in, in nursing, people with these dissertations that like I didn't, that were way beyond my understanding, even though I could still help them, even though I didn't understand like all of, all of what they were doing. So it was, it was very much unlike, sort of the more generalist, you know, approach, or, not generalist, but 78:00I guess, we saw so many different kinds of writing in the, in the general writing center, and it was interesting to see such a concentrated, discipline, I guess, in a sense, in the health sciences, writing center space. So, yeah, I was excited to hear, like down the road, because that's a full, like T.A. position now, isn't it? Or at least it was.

SS: I think so, I'm not super sure.

RHM: Yeah, yeah. I think it's, I think there's a lot, a lot more time spent there now, yeah.

SS: Do you have copies of any photos or documents you'd like to share? We won't be able to return them, so they'd have to be a copy.

RHM: I don't know, are you really, are you guys really interested in those? If I have them?

SS: I mean, the main project here is just getting the audio and your answers to 79:00these questions, so I mean it's fine, it's probably fine, if you don't, but.

RHM: Yeah, I'd have to look. I'd have to look and see, I mean, I probably have some, some things, saved on a junk drive. You know, I'm sure I have stuff from the course and everything, I might have a syllabus from the 604 class I took and that kind of thing, I'd be happy to look, to see if I have anything and I can send them to you.

SS: Okay, and then the last question, is, is there anything else you remember that is important that I haven't asked you about?

RHM: I don't think so, I think I went off on enough tangents to cover most of that stuff. I mean, I feel bad for you, you got assigned to interview me, 80:00because I have so much to say about this, I think I'm probably one of the people that's been, only more fully immersed in the writing center since the experience. I don't know how many people are writing center directors now, who, who started in the M.A. program at UofL in the writing center so, maybe a few, but. Yeah, no, I don't think I have any, anything else I think we covered a lot.

SS: Alright, sorry if there was some like, just repeats and ground that we covered or anything like that.

RHM: No, that's fine. Yeah, that's okay. Thanks, thanks for, sorry if I talked a little bit too much.

SS: No that's fine. Those were good answers.

RHM: Good.

SS: And again, I'm just, I'm really sorry about Microsoft Teams and stuff.

RHM: It's okay.

SS: I, I swear that, I've never had any issues with it, with that issue before.

RHM: I really I, you know what? I would bet like, I would bet, it was something 81:00with my laptop and its weird settings. So, I'm here, you know what, if I have the opportunity to try it again at some point I will, just to see if it's my computer or what. But, yeah, no, I think, you know, I'm glad that Zoom, Zoom ended up working okay, and yeah, it's no problem, that kind of stuff, even no matter how prepared you are, there's always something that goes wrong, inevitably, I feel like, at least it does for me, when I'm organizing stuff like that. So don't worry about it. Don't forget to stop the recording, though.