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Michael Jones: All right, this is Michael Jones with the Unfair Housing Oral History Project that's being done by the Metropolitan Housing Coalition in the University of Louisville Oral History Center. It is November 13th at 10 o'clock, and I'm talking to Tia Brown who is a resident of Fern Creek now but who grew up in Newburg in Louisville. How are you doing today, Tia?

Tia Brown: I'm feeling pretty good, thanks for asking. How are you?

MJ: I'm doing good. And so I said you grew up in Newburg, but now you're in Fern Creek. And how are the neighborhoods different for you?

TB: Well, racial makeup. Newburg was primarily black. My block--everyone on my 1:00block was black and probably the blocks over were primarily black. The neighborhood here, it's probably primarily white. Actually, it may be a good mix. We've got a good mix of--well we used to have--I can't remember--they moved. My block is primarily white, but within the neighborhood there's a good mix of people.

We don't necessarily see each other all the time, which is different. In Newburg, you'd be out. You've got the park right down the street and you'd hang out. We don't really have that communal space over here. So I think that's the primary difference within the neighborhood. And I think communal spaces are important. One when you're raising kids, and then also two, just to be out so that you recognize faces, and you know who--who's who. So that's one thing that 2:00I miss about that neighborhood is the communal space.

MJ: So how old were you when you moved to Newburg?

TB: I think I was fourth grade, third or fourth grade. So what does that make me, 9, 8 or 9?

MJ: So where were you living before that?

TB: Just before Newburg, I think we were in Linderhof Apartments, which was behind Newburg Road. I think off Newburg and Goldsmith? So in that area. And before then, where were we before then? We lived all over the place. So we lived in South Louisville for a time. I think my earliest memories were the West End. We had an apartment right across the street from Shawnee Park.

Then we moved into South Louisville, which was Douglas Park at the time. We left 3:00Douglas Park, there was a house on Montana Street that we lived in. So I've kind of gotten--I've kind of got Louisville covered.

MJ: (laughs) So what was your mom doing for a living?

TB: My mom's done a lot of things. At one time, she was working for--one time she was work--depends on--my mom used to work in law firms. I know she worked at Wyatt, Tarrant, & Combs before. When I was younger--let's see--I know she worked for--she's worked for the city. My mom just worked hard, and so for us, my mother has done like a constant climb, or you know, so having to try new things.

So when you don't come from a neighborhood where everyone--or when you don't come from a family that's already in, I guess, well established, it's really hard to get your foot in the door in most places. And so my mom is a testament of just the continuance--just continuing to move forward and push herself. So 4:00she's done a lot things. My mother is an administrative assistant by trade. That's kind of where her focus is.

She's very organized and pays attention to--to the fine details of things. So she's worked in law firms. She's worked for the city. She's worked for--she worked for--I think she's worked for the state attorney's office before. So this would have been years ago when I was little, when I was very young, I believe she was working there.

MJ: So what about your dad?

TB: My dad's a car salesman. So he has always been in car sales. Now he lives in Atlanta. But he did sell cars in Louisville for a time, but for the most part, he's been in Atlanta.

MJ: So you ended up in Newburg because your mom bought a home there?

TB: Yes, so she bought our first home on Shasta Trail, 4902 Shasta Trail.

MJ: (laughs) My step-daughter used to live there until she bought a house on 5:00(inaudible 0:05:00.3). (laughs)

TB: Oh, okay, okay.

MJ: So what schools did you go to? You were still in elementary school when you moved there? What elementary school did you go to?

TB: I went to--so I went to several elementary schools because we did move a lot up until third grade. So I've been to Rutherford. I've been to Semple. I've been to Goldsmith. Then in third grade, I was at Audubon through fifth grade, then middle school TMS, high school Central.

MJ: Where did you go when you lived in Newburg? Like were you bused or did you go to school in your neighborhood?

TB: No, I was bused. So in Newburg, I was bused to Audubon. So I was at Audubon Elementary School from third through fifth grade. And then I was at TMS, so again I was bused. And then I was at Central. So again, I was bused. So I've never attended any of my neighborhood schools.

MJ: How do you feel about that? I guess you and I were both in that whole 6:00generation after the hubbub about busing. I remember being bused all until I got to high school. Did that ever bother you that you had to be bused?

TB: No, because the schools that I went to were choices. So Central was--you had to apply to get into Central, and because of the whole--the history of busing and the history of integration in schools, Central could not be over so much of a percentage of black. So if you were black and you were coming from a different neighborhood, it was harder to get into Central, and for me, I wanted to go to Central because of the history.

Being at one time our only black high school, and then at the time that I was there, there were so many magnet programs. I wanted to be in the Law and Government Magnet. I went to Central specifically to be in the Law and 7:00Government Magnet. So no, busing was not an issue for me, but my mom does tell the history of when she was bused. They all went to Manual, and she started getting bused in elementary school.

I can't remember the name of the elementary school she went to. They lived on Olive Street. So they went to the neighborhood school initially, but then they were bused and she would talk about how they would set fires--bon fires while they were trying to get to school. And so for her that was--for her that was a traumatic thing, and I remember seeing her old report cards from when she was in her neighborhood school versus when she was bused.

Where when she was in her neighborhood school, she's making straight A's. When she's bused, now she's failing. So it was a--so for her, that might be a--you 8:00may be able to find more information from her. But for me busing was normal. It was what I grew up in. And I didn't have any problem with it. My mom chose for me to go to Audubon and chose for me to go to TMS, and her thought was that those were better schools. So the school bus was actually like an extension of recess.

MJ: So what was Newburg like when you first moved there? You talked about everybody hanging out at the park, was that more like a community vibe there than where you're at now?

TB: I believe so. And actually just not from where I was now. So because where I am now, I'm an adult. And so me comparing Newburg from being a child to me comparing Fern Creek to being adult is different. I'm not going to go outside and play (laughs) the same way I would when I was was a child.

But Newburg was fun, and so if I compare it to the other neighborhoods that I lived in, it was a lot more fun at. When I was at Linderhof, the kids over there 9:00didn't really like me. So I had to deal with possibly fighting if I went outside and dealing with that, and so when I got to Newburg--

MJ: Why was it that they didn't like you? Was it a racial thing?

TB: No this was black neighborhoods. Sometimes you just get in neighborhoods and people don't like you. I can't say why it was. I go into certain spaces now and people don't like me either. I sit up too straight or I speak too proper for their liking and then I go in another space, and I'm not speaking proper enough. So people will choose to not like you for whatever reasons, and so you just learn to deal with it. But even in Linderhof I held my own. So you kind of have to.

But Newburg was a little more fun. I remember telling you that when we first moved in--or the lady that we bought the house from, she was a nurse and she 10:00didn't know whether or not kids my age were in the neighborhood. Now I don't know if that was because she couldn't tell how old I was or if she just didn't know. I know she was a nurse so she probably worked a lot.

But I did find kids my age when I would go to the park. So there were plenty of kids my age playing at the park, playing at the community center, playing--eventually playing at the Boys and Girls Club. So it was fun.

MJ: So when you went to Audubon and people knew you were from Newburg, did they have any kind of opinions about where--your neighborhood?

TB: I don't think so, and I don't know that people in--especially not in elementary school, so I don't know if that was an issue. I was a new kid on the block when I came in in the third grade, and I don't remember neighborhood playing. I don't remember my neighborhood having any issue with that. I was a 11:00little vocal as a child, and I also played very hard.

And Louisville has always had a different--Louisville's racial makeup are--I don't want to call it racism, but there has always been in Louisville just this feeling of knowing your place, so to speak. And I'll say that I felt that more at Audubon then I did at any other school. And all my other schools' racial makeup was the same, but there was just a difference there. And I don't believe that it was in reference to the neighborhood that I grew up in.

I think that it was--these are a different set of kids coming from different neighborhoods as well. When I was at Rutherford or Goldsmith or all the other schools, most of those kids are coming from the same neighborhoods. Audubon, 12:00you're coming from different neighborhoods, and some of them are more affluent. I don't know that they knew where I was from, but there was that difference and a feeling there. I enjoyed myself there, but you could tell the difference, even as a child.

MJ: And was it just from your peers, or were you feeling it from teachers or--

TB: I felt it--I think I felt it more from teachers. So it's funny because my peers at other schools, I wasn't always well liked but my teachers always liked me. My first teacher at Audubon, I don't--she was mean--but she was generally mean to everyone. (laughter) And so that was just--that was the first time that I experienced that, because I was used to--almost kind of being teacher's pet.

She was generally mean, but then she also chose sides and that was a difference. That was a difference in that school.


MJ: So was there a time though when you were older when you being from Newburg was seen as a negative for you?

TB: Well people would call Newburg like your lane. Like people from the West End looked negatively on Newburg.

MJ: Really?

TB: Yeah, but to me, that was not--that was more so in like social circles, and it wasn't in relationship to financial or anything like that. It was just a matter of who was cool and who was not cool. And you were not cool if you lived in Newburg.

MJ: Well Newburg is unusual because it's a lot of African American homeowners. Do you think that that was when like maybe it was seen as a class thing?


TB: I think a little bit. I think that--but coming from, at my age, understanding that and not knowing the history of Newburg, I did realize that we were buying our home. But Newburg was also a part of the empowerment zone system. Which meant that even though we were homeowners, we were still in those affordable homes.

So that means still moderately low income whereas those who would say, "You're not cool if you're from Newburg," it could have been a class thing, but we were all still in the same boat. So does that make--so I think it was, but we weren't different classes (laughs) in terms of financial.

MJ: It was just a matter of perception?

TB: Yes.

MJ: We had talked earlier about how when you got older, you got interested in 15:00the history of Newburg.

TB: I did. I learned about Eliza Tevis. I call her Eliza Curtis.

MJ: Why Curtis?

TB: Well that was her original name.

MJ: Okay.

TB: Eliza Curtis was her original name before she took on any of the other names. And so Tevis was the man she married. She also had taken on the last name Coleman--well I refute the Coleman because I haven't seen that yet. But there are other historians who have found that she had taken on the last name Coleman, so when I see those documents and I authenticate those, I'll say that.

And also they said that they found her with the last name Hundley. But I use her original name, Eliza Curtis. And for me, in terms of searching her history, I found the most information using that name.

MJ: How did Newburg develop like in the--I know that Eliza is credited with 16:00founding the neighborhood, and she took in a lot of children? So were these like the first families of the neighborhood?

TB: So let me--yes and no. So Newburg itself is a German name. And so Newburg got its name from the German community that was nestled next to what was called Wet Woods, which was the community that Eliza founded. And then next to Eliza's community, you have Peter Laws, who's also a black man who--Petersburg they credit Peter Laws with Petersburg.

So he had about 40 acres. Eliza had about 50 something acres. And then there was a German community outside of that, and the German community I believe was the 17:00first to have the post office. And because the post office was there, I think that's how Newburg itself got its name, Newburg. But that Newburg--

MJ: And what year was this--would this have been that Eliza was there?

TB: She was before the end of slavery. So slavery would have ended in 1865. I want to say somewhere in 1840s. So when she first bought that land, and she also ended up getting married. So the question is whether or not she bought the land before the marriage or after. I believe she bought it before, because why else would she have gotten a--what do they call those, I don't know why I'm drawing a blank--she drew up a prenuptial agreement.

MJ: Oh okay. (laughs)

TB: And so she was the first woman in Kentucky to have gotten a prenuptial agreement. I can't find the document. I'd love to find it. According to sources, there were--she listed certain animals and furniture. But to me I didn't live in 18:00that time, but to me I would think that if I'm going to draw up a prenuptial agreement, there's some land involved as well. I do know that livestock is worth money, but I believe there was some land involved, so I believe she bought the land prior to marrying Henry Tevis. But I have not been able to confirm that.

MJ: So when did Newburg get the reputation of being an African American community?

TB: It was always the reputation so--in terms of that area. So Wet Woods, which was Eliza's area, she purchased her land before the end of slavery and a lot of freed slaves would come in and settle in the area. I think there's several other communities like one in Middletown, of freed--free to blacks where they come in 19:00and that was the area that they settled. But that area has always been an African American community.

And even in terms of when they start building the modular homes, the one-level homes that are there now, they built them specifically for the black families that lived there. It was already identified as a black neighborhood, and that was because that's where we concentrated even after slavery. Now I don't know, and this is something that I do want to research, at one time shortly after the Civil War and during the Civil War there were these camps where freed blacks were coming in and living.

Where they were trying to escape slavery, because Union soldiers were here and they would maintain camps in different areas. I don't know if Eliza--if Wet Woods became one of those camps. There is nothing that I have found to confirm 20:00it. Now usually those camps were managed by the Freedmen's Bureau.

And that time was very sexist, so if she did manage a camp, I could see that history being hidden, because the men wanted to be, "We were the ones who managed this," and here is this woman who was pretty much self-made managing her own community. So I could see--your original question was how did it become a black community. But it always was.

And that area was swampland. Neighborhood chatter says that that was the only land that they would sell to black people, and it was because it was swampland. I can't say that because I don't know if the Middletown land where blacks settled was also swampland. I don't know. But they were largely concentrated by 21:00water. So maybe at that time some of the waterways and some of the water areas were not as desirable, and so that's where blacks were able to acquire land.

But now those are the lands that are worth more money. But Newburg was always that, and it remained that until someone decided that the clay that was produced from this swampy land was valuable. And so someone wanted to come in and get the clay. That's how Newburg started to get developed, or that's why Newburg started to get developed. I believe that there was even something that was happening within Eliza's family, so Eliza--Eliza's husband Henry, he died before she did. He had children before her.


They sued Eliza for land, and so as a result, the judge decided that the land would be split into 10 equal parts, and then 5 parts would be reserved for Tevis's heirs, and then 5 parts would be reserved for Eliza. Now the 5 parts that she got were--she ended up getting more than 50 percent of the land but still her land was split up.

But I think that that was--really what they were doing because of where she was positioned, I think that they were really surveying the area for that clay that they wanted to get. And that struggle--that fight between that family enabled the powers to be to do what they wanted to do with that area.

MJ: So growing up, was there a sense of an historic nature of the Newburg neighborhood?

TB: In terms of people talking about it, or just a feeling?


MJ: Yes, yeah.

TB: I didn't hear the conversations. I didn't hear it, no. And I don't know how many people actually knew the full history. So my mom used to work with the committee that would do the Newburg Day Festival. And so they may have, but I didn't get to know about that.

MJ: So when was Newburg Day?

TB: Newburg Day was always around my birthday. So my birthday's August 18th. So it was always that weekend, and it also coincided with the state fair. And so it was like our own little neighborhood fair.

MJ: And what would you do, would they block off streets?

TB: So Newburg Day happened in the park. And so we used to have it--so the first Newburg Day ever went to, we used to have like a little dance platform for the 24:00kids. So it was almost like Kentucky Kingdom's Day Five Alive, but it was specifically for Newburg Day. So we had a little dance area, we'd hang out all night, you'd have your vendors, you'd have your little carnival rides, and it was just--it was much bigger when I was younger than it is now.

So I don't know whose--I don't know if it is maybe because the history is lost? So going back to your question about was there a sense of history, probably those who handled the Newburg Day festivities knew more about what that history was, and that's why Newburg Day Festival was handled the way it was handled in that time period. But those who understood that history, I don't believe that they really passed the history of it on.

They passed the tradition but not the history. And sometimes when you have tradition with no history, people think, "Oh, well the tradition is nothing that you should really keep up." But just thinking back, I do know that that history 25:00had to have been there, and also going back to your question about the perception of class for that community.

The lady who got my mom involved in Newburg Day was Miss Hazer. Now Miss Hazer lived in the community where my grandmother lived, which was off Greenwich Way, off of Breckenridge. And so she was very instrumental in the Newburg Day community festivities. And so Miss Hazer was involved in a lot of things. So the history had to have been there, so just knowing who she was, yeah, the history had to be there. I didn't get to hear the conversations, but it was definitely there.

MJ: So how long did you live in Newburg?

TB: I lived in Newburg until, was it 2001 is when I moved to Maryland? I think 2001.

MJ: And so when you went to Maryland is when you got into real estate?


TB: I did. I didn't get into real estate until graduating. I went to--I started at Bellarmine University. I went to the University of Baltimore. I'd always wanted to be in real estate, and so I decided I was going to learn how to flip houses and be in real estate and make some money to come home. (laughs) So I did it. I got into real estate. I was in real estate for maybe four years? My last four years in Maryland, I was in real estate.

MJ: And so did that make you more conscious of some of the history behind housing in the black community?

TB: It did, because I do remember on the test, and when I was taking--I took my--let me back up--I took my real estate class through RE/MAX out of Maryland. 27:00And within the test, within the testing materials, you had to learn about redlining and those things. And I had not heard of those. Those were not conversations I grew up with.

So that was the first I heard of it, and then I also at the same time found an article written about Georgetown, the Georgetown community in Washington, D.C., and learning that it had originally been an African American community. So when they took pieces of Virginia and took pieces of Maryland, Georgetown became like a prominent African American community.

And this lady who had purchased a home in Georgetown near an AME church, she was a white woman, had found all these documents in her attic. And she didn't know that it had been an African American community either.

There were signs because of the AME churches and how old they were, but when she found these documents of who lived there and what type of community it was, she wrote an article. And I can't remember which paper it was in, but I'd happened to find that article while I was in my real estate classes. So that kind of gave 28:00me a spark to start looking at the history of neighborhoods.

MJ: And so in your practice of being a real estate agent in Maryland, did you come across homes that had been involved in redlining, or--I think before you had talked about some restrictions that were--

TB: See, I won't pretend to know the history of redlining. I do know that I sold a home on Wiley Avenue, which is the 2--what are they, 20215 or something like that zip code. But Wiley Avenue was a primarily black community, but this particular home had been acquired through--someone had failed to pay their ground rent. And so, I think I explained to you what ground rent is.


When you purchase a home, you could either purchase the home fee-simple, which means that the land and also the home conveys with your purchase, or it may have had ground rent in Baltimore. Which means that you might own the building, the structure, but the land is owned by someone else and you're paying ground rent.

Think mobile homes, so communities where there is mobile homes, a lot of times they will pay ground rent and they own their mobile home, but they can easily take their mobile home with them. In Baltimore, you cannot easily pick up a well home and take it with you. So there had been a time where people were losing their homes because they could not pay the ground rent.

It's similar to in other areas where if you fail to pay your taxes on your property, that someone can come and pay the taxes and then over a period of time and through a certain set of processes, they could acquire your home if you don't pay them back. So I sold one of the last homes that had been acquired 30:00through ground--through someone's failure to pay ground rent. I didn't go back and study all the history of it, but it was important.

Well it was important and it also stuck with me because it was hard to sell that home because no title insurance company wanted to insure it because of someone's ability to possibly come back and say, "This is my home." So we had to go through maybe three different title companies in order to finally get that home insured and sold.

MJ: Well that's fascinating. It makes me want to go (laughs) do some research. So what year did you move back to Louisville?

TB: 2010.

MJ: Okay, did you make all your money (laughter)?

TB: No, I didn't and in fact I lost money. (laughs) I came back broke. (laughter)


MJ: So your mom had left Newburg by then and moved to Fern Creek?

TB: My mom actually moved to Maryland for a time. So we all moved--yeah, we all moved to Maryland. Her job moved us to Maryland and then her job moved back home, but I was still in school. So I had already transferred once from Bellarmine to the University of Baltimore. This was my last year, I was like, "Mom, I need to finish this last year out." So I finished the last year, worked a little bit while in Maryland, eventually did real estate, and then came on home.

MJ: And how had Louisville--was it different, or did you perceive it in a different way when you came back?

TB: It was very different. So Louisville, a lot of the makeup of Louisville, there were so many people who moved in from different cities. So getting to know 32:00this new Louisville that had been comprised of new people was different. And then I left as--pretty much as a child. I left at 18. I'm still a kid. So I became an adult in Maryland.

So obviously the way that I see things was going to be much different when I come back to Louisville where I remembered Louisville from the lens of a kid. So I'm having to find my way in Louisville as an adult with my new look on life, so to speak. So it was much different, even Newburg wasn't really--it wasn't really the same. But again, that's me looking at it from an adult lens versus a kid lens.

MJ: So what had changed in Newburg?

TB: I just remember being more excitable or excited in Newburg, And so even if I 33:00go--when I go to the Newburg Day festivities now, they're not as big as when I was growing up. I mean our Newburg Day festivities were really big. I mean and maybe I thought it was so big because I was a kid, (laughs) but I know we--you don't have the same number of vendors, it's just not the same. No.

MJ: And having been by now gotten all this knowledge about real estate and knowing about redlining, did you see the segregation in the community in a different light?

TB: Louisville had always been segregated. And so did I see it in a different light? No. Because what I had not done is talk to people to find out if they felt any type of way about being in the community that they were in. So West End 34:00has from the time I grew up to now has always been primarily black. Newburg has always been primarily black.

Even the neighborhood that my grandparents with my mom's mother and stepfather lived in--what is that, Breckenridge, near Breckenridge and (inaudible 0:34:22.10) so Greenwich Way on that right hand side, that small little community was black, but all around it was primarily white. Louisville always had these little clusters of black neighborhoods surrounded by white neighborhoods, and thinking about it now, when I think about Maryland, Maryland was the same way.

And so I keyed in on that as a realtor in Maryland. Coming home, it just felt like that's what was the normal. So I didn't look at it like, "Okay, something is wrong with this." This is just what I grew up in. And do I know if black 35:00people were specifically put into those neighborhoods? I don't really know those histories. I know that we migrated to certain areas because we were there already. I do know that there were certain neighborhoods that have deed restrictions later on. But--

MJ: I had interviewed somebody else that was involved--who lived in James Taylor, and they were telling me that was a community specifically set up for African Americans that worked in the area. They were probably domestics or something to the homeowners, and this developer wanted them to be able to live in the--nearby.

TB: And so you know that neighborhood out Greenwich Way, could have been that. I 36:00don't know. Actually no, I don't believe that, no. That was definitely not the case because when I look at old pictures, my grandfather's home was one of the first there. And he did not work in the neighborhood. He actually worked for Rodway Chevrolet. So he was commuting, so this was one of those communities that I think African Americans had a say in where they were going. Just almost like is it Alpha Gardens?

MJ: I don't know that.

TB: Is it Alpha Gardens is in Parkland.

JONES:Oh, okay.

TB: So Alpha Gardens was built for African Americans. And these were your working class African Americans. And so Alpha Gardens is in the middle of the Parkland off of--I don't know, that's funny, I don't know the names of streets in Louisville. I know the names of streets in Maryland. And that was because growing up, I never had to know the names of streets. I just knew how to get where I needed to go. Okay, so.

MJ: You weren't driving as a kid, so.

TB: I wasn't driving, but I remember the directions. (laughs) So Alpha Gardens 37:00is off Dumesnil. And so both my paternal--my paternal and my maternal biological grandfathers lived in Alpha Gardens. And that neighborhood was--it was working class African Americans, and I guess they kind of decided--I don't know that African Americans built it, but they decided this is what--this is kind of where we want to be.

So there's a lot of histories within that history. Some neighborhoods built specifically because you were working for a certain set of people. Some for working class African Americans who were a little more upwardly mobile.

MJ: So is Alpha Gardens still around?

TB: It's still there. Alpha Gardens, it just--let me Google it real quick. Alpha--if you go--you know where the Darrell Griffith Community Center is?

MJ: Yes.

TB: So it's right--it's pretty much across from it. So if you go down 38:00there's--you'll see the sign for Alpha Gardens.

MJ: My mom lives around there, and I'd never even heard of that, so. (laughs)

TB: So look into that, because that community--there was a difference in how it was. So there were certain neighborhoods that were built, and they were specifically African American but not all in a negative light or even all in a subservient light either.

MJ: So right now we're in the middle of a lot of development across Louisville, especially in the West End. Have you been paying attention to some of the development that's going on?

TB: I've got--yes and no. Not as much as I used to when I was really heavy into 39:00real estate. I think what--I do know that there's a lot of developers coming in doing a lot of flipping. Which is common, and that was common also in Baltimore.

But would I would like to see is like some black-owned like developers like (inaudible 0:39:23.0) or a Ryan Homes or something like those bigger name developers who come in and they create communities not just to flip but where there--these are minority-owned development firms where they can come in and develop whole neighborhoods.

You take wild grounding develop whole neighborhoods in the same way, I think that that, from what I believe I know about history, that's something that we didn't fully have. You've always had blacks in construction, but the full development firms that are doing--that are developing on the same level and the 40:00same scale as some of the larger development firms--I don't know of any.

MJ: Well that's all the questions I had. Is there anything I didn't ask you about that you would like to talk about? Or anything we didn't cover?

TB: I think we covered it all. So this is the oral history project based on African American lives, African American communities, and Louisville--I think we've covered it all. Oh, well no I do. If you're looking for communities that were built specifically for African Americans who worked in certain communities, remember John Castleman. John Castleman wanted to build an estate home near 41:00Tyler Park.

But based on the restrictions, and I'm not sure which restrictions there were, he opted to sell the home. It is possible that he wanted to build his home with also housing for those who would work his home, and that would not have been acceptable in that community. So I don't know. That might be an area to look into. Somebody else may know more about that.

MJ: All right, I will look into that. Thank you.

TB: You're welcome.

MJ: All right.

[End of interview][0:41:32.0]