Interview with Robin Bray, January 1, 2021

Robin Bray: So, after you interview me, you can tell me if I am or not.

Michael Jones: (laughs) Okay. All right, this is Michael Jones, and I'm here for the Unfair Housing in Louisville Oral History Project that's sponsored by the Metro Housing Coalition. And I'm with Robin Bray, who is a real estate investor and is involved in activism around housing. How are you doing today?

RB: I'm doing wonderful, thank you.

MJ: Okay, so I wanted to talk--this project is mostly about discrimination and different problems with housing in African American community. And so I wanted to know a little bit about your background. Where did you grow up?

RB: Okay. So, my background, I grew up in the West Louisville at Louisville, Kentucky. And it was on 28th and Woodland by a single mom who had raised four kids. It's in the Parkland community. She was a homeowner. My mom was born in 1922. So I say that because I think that to be a homeowner and being born at that age during the time in which she purchased the home, which was in 1958, I think that shows value to housing availability to you at the given time. We were the first blacks on our block, and we still--me and my brother still own the home.

MJ: Okay, what year were you born?

RB: In 1959.

MJ: Okay, and so even as a child, were you aware of the different housing situation for African Americans? Like the lack of black homeownership?

RB: Yes, my mother made me aware of it. I was more aware of it--I would think I more understand around about 10. You know, she kind of explained and pointed out to me the white flight. We would sit on the porch, and she would tell me there's another, you know, family moving, you know. And she would explain to me that they were--she called it the flight to St. Matthews.

So that's my awareness at a young age, and at a young age, I was taught from my mother that housing was very important because she had to sell her car to save our house. She knew--she taught me at a young age that it was more important to 3:00have a home instead of, you know, having a vehicle. Because a home is a housing, you know, over your head. And so what she did, she sold her car to have enough money for the house, and then she took transportation.

MJ: Okay, and--

RB: I mean transportation, I'm thinking public transportation. I'm sorry.

MJ: Yeah, so when she talked to you about white flight, did she tell you--why did she feel it was happening?

RB: She felt it was happening because of our presence.

MJ: And so you said you were the first black family on the block?

RB: Uh-hm.

MJ: And so the families that moved in after you, were they African American too?

RB: Yes, no white families moved in.

MJ: And so how do you think it affected the neighborhood?

RB: Well I didn't see any effect when I was growing up. What I seen is now that I know, but what I seen is that there was working class people, I mean, it was two parent families. I mean it was some single parent--one parent families, but for the most part, I was surrounded by two parent families. They maintained the area. There were more of the manufacturing individuals.

That's the kind of jobs they had. We had--it's industrial around in the West Louisville, so those people in that area went to those jobs very close to them.

MJ: And so as you got older, what high school did you go to?

RB: I went to--I was bused to duPont Manual. I chose that school before busing. I got bused--busing started when I was in eleventh grade. I chose to go to that school after going to a neighborhood school which was called Parkland Junior High, which is now called Johnson Middle.

MJ: And so housing and education are often tied together, especially with busing because a lot of African American students got shipped out of their neighborhoods. Do you feel like that had an impact on--that busing had an impact on the quality of the schools in the West End?

RB: I think that it did. But I think before that, I think that--that the quality was there, we just needed the materials, the upgrades. Because as I from elementary school, which is Parkland Elementary to Parkland Junior High, I mean the education (inaudible 0:06:27.1) was wonderful. The teachers I had were so supportive and majority of the teachers were black.

When I was in the elementary school, we might of had like--we had three or four white teachers but majority of them was black. And they took interest in us, I felt. So I have fond memories of--really all my elementary and junior high. High 7:00school was challenging because we were brought together. Because it wasn't a willing thing. There was pushback from the students and the students' parents, and it showed up in high school.

MJ: So was it the white students' parents or were African American parents also pushing back against a busing plan?

RB: It was more the white students and their parents and the white sentiment of having this happen. I think that the black parents had feared for their children more than anything. I think. And I remember being discriminated against in high school. I was Homecoming Queen--a basketball Homecoming Queen, and the first time ever at Manual, I didn't get in the yearbook. They told me they ran out of 8:00time. And then that was kind of--devastating. But to me at that time--

MJ: So back in your neighborhood, not going to school in your neighborhood anymore, was it--did that pose some challenges or were your friends in the neighborhood, were they bused too?

RB: Yes, they were bused too. Like I said, Manual was a school I was going to pick anyway. But I got bused to Manual and several of my friends got bused further out in the community. More PRP and that area--south. And that area was very racist. And so when some of my friends got bused to Manual, that was an inner city school. So that Manual and Male was--I guess--and Central, those 9:00schools had African Americans before. And then when you went south, that's when it got difficult.

MJ: And did a lot of your white classmates at Manual--did they actually have African Americans living in their neighborhoods?

RB: Yes, some of them--I think they lived not too far. I guess in the East End of Manual off of 2nd Street. They had some of those--those kids to get bused, they were neighbors. But a lot of them weren't that got bused.

MJ: Did you ever visit the homes of any of your white friends from school, or was there a like a different relationship like at school?

RB: A different relationship. Those relationships that was brought from the East End to Manual, they had relationships, but I didn't. Now I didn't visit their homes, but our relationship was kind of rocky probably eleventh grade? But once we got to the twelfth grade, I think things got better. It got better.

MJ: And so what year would we be talking about? When were you--

RB: '75, '76, and '77.

MJ: Okay, and so had you noticed a difference in the West End as far as housing? The quality of housing? The number of homeownership?

RB: So, you got to remember I was in high school, so I guess knowing who owned a home and who was renting was--but I think the quality of housing deteriorated more in the '80s than the '70s? Maybe the late '80s, because still you had the homeowners that was at the present time were the remnants of the individuals that--they hadn't retired yet.

So you went through the '80s okay because you still had industrial labor which paid well. You had your Reynolds, your aluminum. You had GE. Those companies where most black people worked at because of education levels. But very good paying jobs.

MJ: So do you see the decline coming with like the post-industrialization?

RB: Yes.

MJ: When I guess more jobs that--a different kind of jobs that required more education probably, more skills?

RB: Different skill set, yeah. Because before you had your Fords. So you had those jobs. And then you had laws that required companies not to discriminate again, so that increased the employment of African American people also.

MJ: So how did you end up getting into real estate?

RB: My mom, she taught me they didn't make any more land, and she told me that that was the best investment. And I think by her telling me the story of selling her home for us to have a house, I think that resonated with me.

MJ: You mean selling the car?

RB: Yeah, I'm sorry, selling the car. You're right. So that resonated with me to know the worth of housing.

MJ: And so after you graduated from high school, did you start like studying real estate? What was like the process of you getting your realtor's license?

RB: I became a real estate--well, after I graduated from high school, I went to college. And then after that, I lived in an apartment for like a year or two. And then I got married, so me and my husband, we talked before we got married. Instead of going on a honeymoon, we decided to purchase a home.

MJ: Okay. Well what did you study in college and where did you go?

RB: I went to Westin University and I studied--then it was called data 14:00processing, which today be called computer science or--just computers. And so I studied that because I was introduced to that when I was in high school, and they told me that that was going to be the jobs of the future. And that the pay would be way up--it would be good pay. So it's been like that ever since. (laughter)

MJ: Okay. And so when you and your husband decided to purchase a home, where was your home?

RB: It was in Newburg? Sometimes some people call it Newbury, some people don't. But it's on the cusp--on the edge. It was off of Della--it was on Dellafay off of Fern Valley. Some people in that neighborhood don't call themselves Newburg, 15:00but it was Newburg.

MJ: And what kind of neighborhood is that? Because we think Newburg is just traditionally more of an African American community.

RB: Well because where this was located at, it was a mixed neighborhood. So when I went into the neighborhood, it was--I would say at that time it was half and half. But I seen the same process that I seen in my house that I grew up in. And the process of slowly but surely white flight happened again.

MJ: And do you think that impacted the property values?

RB: Not at that time. I think that the property values that--in that neighborhood, they had went up. It's just that sometimes they went up (inaudible 0:15:52.4), but they might not have went up as much as the property values in other neighborhoods.

MJ: And why do you think that? Is it becoming a majority African American 16:00community or--

RB: Oh I think that's--yeah, I do think that that has some input on it. No double about it. That is the case. How we measure that is--only way we can measure that is by numbers. But then you got to put in the quality of houses that the house (inaudible 0:16:31.1) bigger or made different or amenities around it. They better, so those things do make a difference in real estate too.

MJ: So the process of buying your home, did you have to get a loan? Like how was that process for you?

RB: That was--it was easy for me. I just--when my mom taught me to have good credit, so my credit was good. And my husband's credit was good. So we came in there with two income earning people, and we had pretty decent jobs. So therefore we didn't have any difficulty at all getting a loan. I'm not saying that's for everyone, but we didn't have any problem.

MJ: Yeah, and so how did you start--when did you decide that you wanted to go into real estate yourself?

RB:We had a--my husband's grandfather had passed away, and he had a piece of property and we wanted to keep it in the family. And so they sold us our first piece of real estate from the family in--also my husband worked with someone who also was a real estate investor, and so he was on board because he got to hear that every day when he was at work. And then I got my mother in my ear.

And then the opportunity came in front of us, and we were both fired up to be savers, so at that given time, we had enough money to purchase the property.

MJ: And so where was this property at?

RB: It was off of 34th and Southern.

MJ: Okay.

RB: And it was a condo. It cost me $15,000. And it was a two-bedroom condo.

MJ: And so did you rent it out, or did you--

RB: Yes, I rented it out.

MJ: And so after that, did you decide like you know, this is a business I want to go into?

RB: Yes, and then within two years, I bought three more properties.

MJ: All in West Louisville?

RB: I bought two more in that same community. All of them in West Louisville, yes.

MJ: So when did you notice that West Louisville was having problems like the deterioration of housing? The decline of home ownership? And that (inaudible 0:19:26.7) occur to you?

RB: I think the beginning to me was after the riots. To me, the deteriorating of West Louisville, period. You know I must have been 9 then. So slowly but surely, I've seen a difference in our business sector, and I think that that had an input in--

MJ: Yeah, this is the 1968 riots in Parkland following Martin Luther King, Jr.'s shooting?

RB: Yes.

MJ: And were you living--you were living there, that was your neighborhood then. Were you still living--

RB: Yes I was 9 years old.

MJ: What do you remember from that?

RB: I remember my mom telling us to get inside, stay inside the house while the looting was happening. And I didn't understand that part. So but it was--I think it was very maybe psychologically damaging to a point where we kept--you suppressed feelings about it. But I still have those feelings of--it used to be so beautiful. It used to be--I mean we had two stores, grocery stores, and we had banks, and we had meat stores, we had clothing stores, shoe stores.

We had everything you needed, we had in our community. And when that happened, 21:00it just slowly but surely, it ate like a cancer. When I ride to the community today and I just can't believe that what are we talking--51 years ago. And we let something like that just stay like that for 51 years. How can we do that as a city?

MJ: Well that's why I wondered why do you think that Parkland was never able to recover?

RB: I think the individuals that owned the businesses was not individuals that lived in the community. I think that they were owned by white flight people, but 22:00I didn't know that then. I think that that was as--and then we had black people who would come and step in and try to start businesses, but they never did flourish as--and you got to remember too. We started having developments of the malls. So now you are competing with the malls.

And then also I believe in that community, which I didn't know, some of the homes might not have been homeowners. And I didn't know the difference. That could have been a piece of it when they left doesn't mean that black individuals owned the comes. It could have been where white people--because I said they probably had the money to expand, became investors.

So if we could have statistics on the housing stock being which ones were 23:00becoming investment pieces and which ones was homeowners, then we would be able to answer that a little bit better.

MJ: Right now the city is trying to revitalize the Russell neighborhood, and as an investor yourself, do you find yourself competing with a lot of outside investors?

RB: Oh definitely, yes. I think because of what we're doing right now on computers, the properties are available to everyone throughout the whole world now. So therefore we have companies who buy up ten to fifteen properties at a time, and they've never seen them. They do pure numbers. Does it--is it a good investment? What's the return? And they might have a realtor to go and make sure it's structurally sound, but they just buy them that quick.

They buy them like that. And that is--I think that's problematic because you have individuals that doesn't live in your community and is looking at your community as a number.

MJ: And with this opportunity zones, probably a lot of those people--bigger real estate investors are interested in also taking advantage of the tax breaks that--

RB: Yes, and that's going to continue because they're going to just look at the numbers and it's going to be competitive. You can't tell people what they can't buy. I mean we're an open market.

MJ: So how do you think this is going to impact West Louisville in the long term?

RB: Unless we create, and I'm not a politician, some kind of policy, I think in the long run capitalism is going to win.

MJ: So as you started investing yourself and you said you had like three properties, did your perspective change? How did your idea about housing and being a renter/owner, did that--did you have any--a new perspective on the way housing works in our city?

RB: Yes, I start getting involved in any--all entities that had things to do with low-income housing. I reached out--Habitat for Humanities, I've been on 26:00that board three times. And now I'm on a board also MHC, Metro Housing Coalition. So as I did it, I realized that I needed to give back to my community.

And what I do is when I buy houses, I rent below market, still making a profit, but renting below market to allow people in that community to be able to afford the rent on my properties. So that's my way of giving back to the community, and also, my way still of creating wealth, but leaving something on the table for people to be able to live comfortably.

MJ: The Metro Housing Coalition, they did the study last year and they said we 27:00need 22,000 new African American homeowners to achieve equity in the city. What do you think that we as a community need to do to achieve that?

RB: A community and also individuals. Okay, because individuals--to me individuals create a community. I think policy, there can be some policy wrote around it. Also individuals--we have to live below our means and we might have to do some sacrificing, like sell your car, take transportation. Because that even happened, you've got to remember, that even happened 51 years ago. Incomes--incomes are so out of whack.

It's just to me it's unbelievable what you're expecting someone to live on. And we need to close that gap. How we do that? Like I say, I'm not a politician--I don't know how you do that. If you can change the minimum wage, but at the same time, I don't want it to be a rolling thing. You change the minimum wage and then you raise everything up. Then that defeats changing the minimum wage.

So and as individuals, we have to decide how we spend the money we have. My mom used to always say, "It's not always how much money you make. It's how you spend your money." It's a combination.

MJ: So in the properties that you own, do you accept Section 8 housing vouchers?

RB: Uh-hm.

MJ: Because one of things I know with the people who are being relocated from 29:00Beecher Terrace, many of them are being given vouchers. But they can't use them everywhere.

RB: Oh yeah, I've been involved with Section 8, I guess it's been 20 years? At least 20. And I've had one tenant, she just moved out and she had--she started on Section 8 with me. And she was my tenant for 20 years.

MJ: And why do you think it's not--the program isn't more widespread or landlords in other parts of the community outside of West End are reluctant sometimes to--

RB: It might be reluctant. Also it's number driven. So like for instance, if you buy a property in West Louisville and it's a two bedroom and it's $50,000, okay. And you can rent it for X amount. So the return on that money is X. But if you 30:00buy the same property, costs you $100,000, well you're going to have to have a higher rent then can be covered by Section 8. And a return on that is X.

So we got--you have to look at it from a landlord's point of view is their return on their investment. So if you take a voucher and it's a two bedroom voucher and the voucher is worth $800 and you buy in West Louisville for a house that is $50,000, but that same $800 is not going to--the numbers are not going to be the same for somewhere else if they have to pay $100,000 for that piece of property.

MJ: What's your opinion of the housing stock that is available in West Louisville now?

RB: I think that West Louisville property values are going up, which is a great 31:00thing. I think that we have a lot of vacant properties that we need to figure out how to give (inaudible 0:31:06.6) to social conscious investors to bring them up to living conditions and rent those out to individuals who have vouchers. That would help a lot. So I think that could help with the, was it, 22,000? I think that would help. Because the numbers will work.

The numbers will work, because as--through the pandemic, if anything that has been doing great is housing. And so now, housing is getting pushed--the cost of 32:00housing is getting pushed because of the interest rates being low. But now, the ratio of housing being higher compared to what Section 8 can pay per month is--the gap is getting larger.

MJ: We often hear that Louisville has a problem with affordable housing. Has that been your experience?

RB: Yes, and it comes back to the market drives housing. The housing market drives it, so when those property values go up and land goes up, that affects individuals for affordable housing because their incomes won't go up. I mean income has a lot to do for affordability. And so if we can't as a society get the income to go up, then we have to figure out a way to subsidize that.

MJ: What are some of the things that you've learned over your career as an investor? Like something you know now that you didn't realize in the beginning?RB: I learned networking with contractors is very important. Finding good people to--and with a reasonable cost to renovate your home. That is as challenging because if anything, that cost has went up a lot.

MJ: And so have you--when did you learn about redlining, or have you done research or anything about redlining?

RB: I learned more about it just recently. I guess I knew it happened, but I didn't know what it was called. And with access, with data on the computer, now I'm able to research. And one piece that really stood out with me was the Wades, that was a family which bought property in Shively, and they got their house blown up.

And so when I did research on them, and I did the number crunching on if they were able to stay in Shively and how much growth that they would have had financially compared to where they did move, it just--it's amazing. I mean, I don't probably have time right now, but I really have the numbers of how much wealth they lost because they was ran out of a predominantly white area. And 35:00that was redlining.

MJ: Yeah, can you give us an estimate?

RB: Oh yes, I got it written down. I got it written down. Do you want an estimate? So the property in Shively probably would sell for $148,000 that they got moved out of. The property that they bought in the West End, which I purchased, believe it or not, this year because the mother passed away, I purchased it for $17,000. So the difference between those two over 66 years is 868 percent. So if you divide that by 66 years, that's 13 percent per year that that family missed out on that wealth. That's significant.

MJ: It is. And Shively is not that far from West Louisville. It's pretty much on the edge of it. So it's not too far away. And what's your feeling about why the money--the property values went up so much in Shively but so little where the Wades moved to?

RB: Well white flight, environmental situations, the difference in the property, I mean, the house that they had that they end up with and the house that they left, it was a better house. But at the time, the difference in the price wasn't as insignificant as it is today. And so I think that's the combination of those things.

MJ: Well we touched a little bit on redlining which was--some areas would be targeted. It would be harder to get services like loans and things like that. Do you see any examples of that or legacy of that in the real estate market today?

RB: Well I think the Wades is the legacy. I mean I don't know individuals with the redlining issues today, but they are legacy. Anytime you're looking at $148,000 compared to $17,000, and that's what they left to their heirs. Now 38:00we're looking at a difference of $131,000. Now you duplicate that process because of redlining to black individuals that would have wanted to move to Shively that were fearful to, that is significant in the black community.

And real estate is slow wealth building, but it is the biggest wealth vehicle for all Americans. So that's why I think financially we as black people have been left out of is because of policy. So if policy made that happen, then policy needs to fix it.

MJ: There's a lot of fear now among social justice activists that the African 39:00Americans are going to get moved out of the West End. That that's what is going on with revitalization, and it came up again with the Breonna Taylor shooting. There was a theory that the whole police roundup that night had to do with a specific property on Elliott Street. And are you afraid that some areas of Russell, specifically close to downtown, that the number of black residents would go down? Or people would be kept from returning to the neighborhood?

RB: We live in a capitalist society, and we have to be very aware of that. And 40:00we want values to go up because that's how you make money--that's how you pass it on to your children. So policy has to reverse what policy did in the beginning. Back to the Wades. If they didn't get blown out of their house, their family would have been $131,000 richer. We would be talking about a whole different situation if that didn't happen then.

So policy has to say how do we protect black ownership without affecting totally capitalism itself? How do we do that? Because that is on--I mean that is due for taking away my opportunity to build wealth 66 years ago.

MJ: What kind of specific policy changes do you think we need now?

RB: Wow, now I'm going to be a politician, right? Wow. It couldn't be reverse word, I don't know. I mean I got to look at it. It's like in individuals get forgivable loans and your money to fix up their property if they're owners in--if you own the home, then therefore you can get a forgivable loan if you take the money, put it back in your property, and you stay there for 10 years, then it's forgiven. Make sure that they can't take the money and actually use it like a flip of a house.

You have to maybe keep it in your bloodline. Something has--for a period of 42:00time. That has to happen. We did it before. We did it when years ago, if you look into redlining research, we did it for when they came from--individuals came from the war. We came up with policy to give them low-income loans and forgivable loans. If we did it before and it knocked black people out of a homeownership, let's do the reverse to make sure that we can hold on to what we have.

MJ: So another piece, especially when you're dealing with property, is insurance. Have you noticed a difference in insurance rates? Like for your property like say in Newburg compared to in the West End or other places?

RB: What I've noticed that if anything, the insurance rates have went up because they look at the structure. They look at the cost of rebuilding something versus what I purchased it for. So in other words, if I purchase a house for $50,000, they--I'm pushed into insuring it for its rebuild cost. So it might cost $100,000--cost of material and labor. It might cost $100,000 to build it back.

So now I have to pay insurance on $100,000 piece versus the $50,000 that I might have purchased it for. But you can't have it both ways. You want your property values to go up so you want that value to go up. So when it goes up, the insurance is going to also go up too.

MJ: Yeah, would you see that though as a barrier to some home owners?

RB: It could be. It depends on their income, their income, yeah. I could see that being a barrier. I mean I guess I have to look at their income and the significance of the difference. Where can I cut back to make sure that I can afford that insurance. But the income (inaudible 0:44:22.0) is important.

MJ: Well you seem to be emphasizing a lot--teaching financial literacy. And is that something, you seem to have gotten it from your mother, but do you think that's something that we need to instill especially in the African American kids today?

RB: I think literacy on financial--also the ability to say "no" to purchases. I 45:00think that because the time in which I was born and I had the mother I had and they went through a Depression, their mentality of saving and saying "no" to materialistic things were much more of a driven force than we have today.

Because I guess because for me to realize that there's a woman that was born in 1922 to have purchased a home, and she was a maid and made $45 a day and raised four kids and still bought a home and paid it off. And she did it and we can't do it today? I question what are we spending our money on? So literacy is 46:00important to understand about finances, but manipulation of your mind to purchase is just as important.

MJ: In our day and age with social media and stuff, do you think that's had an impact on it? Because like now, you could order something from Amazon and have it delivered the next day. (laughs)

RB: Yes, I think that we--we're definitely consumer addicted. And they didn't have that. I mean, TV turned off at 11 o'clock at night. (laughs) It's not ongoing, and we need to be aware of its ongoing thread in your head.

MJ: You talked about a couple of boards that you have sat on. What were they again?

RB: Habitat for Humanity and MHC.

MJ: Okay, the coalition and stuff. And so, what's been your experience in working with other people who are interested in housing issues?

RB: Oh it's been very good. I think that I bring to the board--sometimes on these boards, the individuals on the boards never lived in West Louisville. So I think I bring that to the board. And I bring my experiences of starting out, to me, poor. And I've achieved and understand the steps in which one has to go through. And sometimes people on the boards, they have no clue.

MJ: I know you're involved in some other groups. The West Louisville Women's Collective, is that one of them, or?

RB: Yes. The West Louisville Women Coalition at--yeah, that's where we started out. Now it's the collaborative. What that was is that that came out of the mayor's Lots of Possibilities Program. And what that was is that it was his way of trying to tackle vacant properties. And so what we did as a group of women throughout the whole city, West End and East End, South End, black and white, and ages ranging from 30 year old women to 80 year old women--we came together with the idea of creating a labyrinth on Hale Street.

And what we did, it was a contest. And we won the contest, and that's what we came up with, The Labyrinth on Hale Street. So that was really good and we're still there. So I think the program worked, and we turned a vacant property into something that's very useful. We have--we give out at different times of the year, we have art projects. So that was very--a way of giving back to the community.

MJ: And you often hear like we have so many vacant houses in this city and so many homeless people, do that there should there be something done about that? And I wonder why do you think that we have this abandon--this problem with abandoned properties?

RB: We haven't figured out how to finance the renovations. We need to have investors to come to the table with policymakers to figure out how do we renovate these properties. Investors get some profit, and also we give back to the community. So you've got to be a socially conscious investor. Maybe you could go somewhere else and make 22 percent. Now you have to find investors, "Like you know, I'm okay with 10 percent, but I'm giving back to the community."

MJ: And so is that more going to require like a public/private partnership?

RB: Yes.

MJ: Okay. Public involvement in the situation?

RB: Right, and when they're sitting at the table, they know that their purpose is to make money, but give back to the community also.

MJ: Okay. Well that's all the questions I had for you. Is there something we didn't talk about that you think is important?

RB: I think we hit most of things that I think that's important. I would like for people to realize that with real estate, that it is a slow process. And that wealth building, I heard a lot. It takes time. That's why it's called building. It's not something that is a swipe on the phone or a click.

MJ: So are you still excited about--as excited about the real estate market as you were in the beginning of your career?

RB: Yes, even more excited. Because at the beginning of my career, I didn't see a lot of people who looked like me, who were black, African American, whichever one you want to say today. Now I see more. But the cost to get in costs more than it was when I started.

MJ: All right, well thank you very much for your time.

RB: But thank you.

[End of interview][0:52:45.4]