Interview with Che Rhodes, December 28, 2021

Michael Jones: Hello, this is Michael Jones for the Unfair Housing Oral History Project being done by the Metropolitan Housing Coalition and the University of Louisville's Oral History Center. It is December 28 at 5:16 and I'm here with Ché Rhodes who is a professor at the University of Louisville. How are you doing?

Ché Rhodes: Good, thanks for having me.

MJ: All right, you know, we've been looking at--talking to people who have faced some kind of discrimination or problem with housing, and I was told that you had a problem when you tried to purchase a house? What year was this?

CR: What was that, oh what year is that? That would have been--well the whole process would have been 2004. The fall of 2004, and I moved in in 2005 in 1:00January. So I think I took possession like right after Christmas or right before Christmas in 2004.

MJ: So is this when you're first coming to Louisville?

CR: Yeah, so I was teaching at Southern Illinois University in Carbondale. I'd been there for 5-1/2 years. And then I was essentially offered a job at U of L. And it was a little bit odd because it happens, typically hires tend to happen in the fall. So you're hired in the spring and then you start in the fall. But just--I guess it was the timing of when position--oh no, I take that back. You don't need all these details, but I--the job offer kind of happens not in the 2:00most sort of conventional of ways. So it sort of--it kind of bubbled up instead of--I mean there was a search and everything and it was a normal thing, but it all kind of started not a conventional way and I was a little late to the game in some ways.

And just because of circumstances, it ended up that I would have had to have left my position at my other job kind of abruptly. And I didn't want to leave my department kind of in the lurch. So I basically said I'd be interested in this job but I'd have to delay a semester to start, just because I wouldn't want to 3:00just leave in a hurry. And so they were agreeable. That's why I was in that sort of timing. So I moved here from Southern Illinois.

MJ: And where are you from originally?

CR: I was born in Cincinnati. Lived kind of all over. I went to actually boarding school in Rhode Island as a minority scholarship student. And then I went to college at Center College here in Kentucky. Left Kentucky, swore I'd never come back, but I came back a lot and went to grad school in Philadelphia. And then ended up getting a job in Carbondale. And then my mother's side of the family is--they're all in New York. So we spent a lot of time, kind of back and forth between Cincinnati and New York growing up.

MJ: So why did you say you'd never come back to Kentucky?

CR: I just did not like it at all. You know, I was probably a little more accustomed to--I mean, Cincinnati's the Midwest bordering on the south. But it's definitely more metropolitan then Kentucky, even Louisville I would say for sure. But then I spent a lot of time on the East Coast growing up and then as a--in high school as well. And I think my experience at Center College was--it was very interesting at first, just sort of culturally.

And then I just sort of grew kind of tired of--it was just a very conservative, I shouldn't say very, it was a pretty conservative place and then just all of 5:00the--just wasn't my speed I think sort of culturally at that time here in Kentucky, and then also the culture there--I had a really great experience at Center all and all, largely because of my experience with Steven Powell, my professor, in the art department.

Without that, I would have definitely been gone. But I came back to see him all the time, so I kind of ended up--yeah. Just wasn't my speed and pretty weird experience. And I'm a pretty adaptable person but four and five years there just was a long time for me I think. Yeah.

MJ: All right, so when you moved to Louisville in 2004 and you start looking for 6:00a place to live, where were you looking?

CR: Well, so I'd moved in 2005, but I was--so I was looking, I was in Illinois still and looking because I was teaching that fall in Carbondale, and I was to start here in--I was to start in Louisville in the spring--in January. We call the spring, obviously, in university. So I guess I did--you're right, I did move here in the very last days of 2004.

Well where I was looking, it was interesting. I started looking online obviously, and I made a few trips to Louisville and kind of drove around and saw some things listed. I fell in relatively quickly with a pretty wonderful realtor--real estate agent. And what I said to her was I don't care where I 7:00live. Like I don't care what the--what part of town it is or what--I want it to be close and convenient, but in terms of demographics or socioeconomic status or even just the sort of geography, I didn't really care. I just said I just want to get the type of space that I'm looking for for an affordable amount of money.

So basically--I know a lot of people are like targeting areas. I didn't care what the area was. But in terms of affordability, most of what came up was in the West End. So there was a lot of--the West End and also downtown and sort of what's now like Smoketown and Shelby Park and those kinds of areas were coming--a little bit in Germantown at the time as well. But I wasn't intentionally looking in any area.

But it did end up--pretty quickly I figured out the West End is--I thought it 8:00was beautiful. The architecture is beautiful. It's conveniently located downtown, and exceptionally affordable at the time. And contextually, that was 2004 and this is like the height of the housing bubble and a little bit before the housing crisis, the collapse, the mortgage crisis. And so from my perspective I didn't really care about the investment sort of component of things.

But as an outsider and not knowing what Louisville is really like--I mean I had experience in Louisville. I'd been here plenty of times and had gone to Center College, but I didn't really understand what it was like here. I was looking at the West End, particularly the area where I am now, which is in the vicinity of 9:0020th and Main. And I was like, "Oh well if the economy of housing keeps going the way that it is, this is all gonna kind of be flourishing in some manner of time--or matter of time."

As I began to try acquire property in the West End, I began to figure out that, oh that's not how--they're not gonna let that happen, I don't think in this town. But I ended up kind of targeting the West End and the realtor I had, she was really great. She was more accustomed to, I think looking at properties with people who were looking for nice, I'd say, upper middle class or even upper 10:00class sort of properties around Louisville.

So a lot of things in subdivisions and some things in--at the time the condos downtown were like the new big thing. And so it was really interesting because she's a wonderful person. More recently I kind of figured out that in some ways, she's a lot more conservative than I am, which may have not a good barometer.

But she has a very, sort of, strong sense of right and wrong. So when I say she's more conservative than I am, I don't mean in the way that we maybe refer to people as conservative in 2020. But maybe--like more how you would have in like, I don't know, 2000 or 1995.

But I say she's a progressive person, but just politically, I think she's probably a little more conservative than I am, but--so looking at dilapidated 11:00properties in the West End was definitely pretty far outside of her area of expertise. And I think that 99% of other realtors would have just been like, "I'll see you later. This isn't my thing."

And you know, she didn't stand to make a lot of money off of anything I did cause the properties were very low value I would say, at least from her perspective. But she just was like a good person and sort of helped to kind of steward me through the whole process. It was awesome because we were--I'm used to dilapidated properties and doing maintenance and things, but we went into buildings that were really unsafe at times.

We went in one building and there was a--like a gas main was just open. We walked in, and I work natural gas a lot. So as soon as we walked in, I was like 12:00this building has a huge gas leak and I told her to get out. And I just went in quickly and looked to see if we could see where it was to tell the fire department. And I saw it was just an open gas valve, just wide open. And we just got out of there and called the fire department.

But she was a trooper, I have to say. And then when I had a lot of trouble buying property in the West End, and she really was like ready to go to war with the powers that be. Because she--neither of us could believe what was happening. Like we really were both just 100% taken aback at what was happening. And she was ready to go to battle, which I thought was awesome.

MJ: So what was the problem with you buying property?

CR: So, I mean I try to make this too long for you. So I was doing this remotely 13:00from Illinois, and I had never bought property before. I was 30 or 31 at the time. And I work in the arts. I wanted to have a place where I could--I mean I had a little bit of a vision of the type of structure I wanted to live in or whatever but I was pretty adaptable, but I had kind of a vision of what I was interested in, which would be a place where I could have kind of an art studio, workspace, and then also a living space.

So those were the type of properties that we were looking at, that border more on the like sort of office or commercial type of style, other than a brick storefront building, as you can probably tell. What ended up happening is I first--this was back when literally dogs were getting loans. Like literally 14:00people were trying to see--cause they're giving loans to so many people, people were trying to see--

MJ: The subprime?

CR: Yeah, it was the subprime. And it's very interesting, because I think I'm at least a reasonably intelligent person and the first thing I did was went and got pre-approved. Just through like a pre-approval service. I wish I had more time, I was just looking through old papers that I haven't looked at in 15 years to try to see if there was any info I could dig up for you.

But I got pre-approved for what seemed to me to be way more money than I could afford. And I thought that was interesting because we talk about the victims of the subprime mortgage crisis. You know a lot of people say, "Well why did these people take these loans that they knew they couldn't afford?" Well, I knew I 15:00couldn't afford what they were telling me. But from my perspective, I was like, well I don't know. This person sitting across the desk from me is a loan officer. And if they tell me that I can afford this, I suppose I can--I can see where people fell into that. I fortunately didn't. I was like, well I don't think I can afford that, but I'm going to stay well below that regardless. But I see how people fell victim to that. Because you had bankers telling you that you can afford things and it's easy to talk somebody into that if you're a "expert."

So anyway, I got pre-approved which was supposed to make it easier to get loans either through banks or just to initiate the whole process. And then I actually spoke with my mother in Cincinnati and she had a friend--I'm gonna try not to name any, like, institutions just cause I don't know what the sort of litigiousness is of any of this stuff.

But she had a friend that was high up in a bank in Cincinnati that also operated branches here in Louisville. And she was like, "Talk to my friend at this bank and--," so that's how I started the process and I thought an in, actually. I was like, "Okay this is gonna be good." I found this particular property and it's a storefront and it's zoned--it's zoned I think OR1 or OCR which is like--basically you can--it's office and commercial and residential. You kind of do whatever you want with it. It was three apartments in a storefront before I had it, but it was essentially an abandoned -ish building.

I mean people have been living there months before, but it was--. So anyway I found this property and went through the whole rigmarole with the bank and 17:00starting the whole loan process and had the pre-approval letter and everything else. The price was well below what I was approved for. And I was coming into a tenure track position at U of L. I was making decent money for someone my age and very stable job, right? A tenured--likely to be a tenured position.

And so that first bank, I was doing it remotely. Went through the whole process of all the paperwork and letters, you know your offer letter and all that stuff. We were supposed to close on a Monday, so I was supposed to drive here on Monday and do the closing from Illinois, which is about 3-1/2 hours. And on Friday at 18:00like 3 o'clock in the afternoon or 3:30, I get a phone call or phone message that they don't want to do the closing any--like we're not doing it.

So this is after everything's done except for the closing. And I can't really get through to anybody because they called me on a Friday before Monday. So the bank is obviously closed on the weekend where those offices are. I guess I got a hold of them on Monday and they said, well we aren't gonna do it cause they sent their drive by appraiser by and what their story was is that the property looked too commercial is what they said. So this was--this loan was under $100,000, was the value that I was looking for.

So they claimed that the property just looked more commercial than they realized and that they were trying to do a residential loan. But the zoning, it all fits, it was all legit. And I was like, "That is weird," and we also sat there and 19:00looked at photographs of the property together, and also in the packet of all the info with the appraisal and like all the info, the real estate listing, are photographs of the property--I mean it was a cover story. And I was like that seems super fishy.

I was pretty upset, but moved on to the next bank. And just coincidentally, this bank was very interesting. I had actually met a pretty high up official at this bank on a trip to Louisville months before this. I can't remember if I was--had already taken the job here or not at that time, but I'd met just through coincidence someone at this bank. And actually kind of got to know them a little 20:00bit. And I was like, "Well I'll try this bank." That bank did the same thing.

We got within, I think it was, four days of closing and they reneged after everything was done. And I was pretty upset. I got that person on the phone and this one just really burns me up. But they told me, I mean they said a lot of illegal things to me on the phone. They said you know we aren't gonna give you a loan on a property in that area. That's literally what they said. And then, we argued. I was pretty heated actually. Then at one point they said, "We'll loan you $10,000."

I was like if I needed a $10,000 loan, I don't need a loan, you know what I mean. That's not really a whatever. And yeah, they basically said--they said to me that it was the neighborhood. Ironically--

MJ: The neighborhood before when they--

CR: And what now?

MJ: Would they have known the neighborhood when they started to loan?

CR: Well this is what was interesting to me and I began to figure out in this process. And I learned in my early days living in Louisville. I think you've been here, all your life or a long time?

MJ: Yeah, all my life, yeah.

CR: It has certainly changed here but I work at First and Main, and I used to work at 9th and Market. And you know the whole thing, it's not the way it used to be but up until just a handful of years ago, it was like don't cross Ninth Street. And I would say to people--they'd say where do you live? And I'd say 20th and Main. And they'd like--they don't have any concept of where that is actually.

So they, I think, all the people, the officials at the banks, they knew the 22:00address, [redacted], I probably shouldn't say my address. I don't know if we can edit that out. But they knew the address but I think it didn't register with them where it was. You know like just sort of what neighborhood. Because the exact same thing happened with that particular bank.

They said our drive-by appraiser went by and they just kind of didn't know enough to not say that. And they said, "We just won't give you a loan there." That, I guess that was--maybe that wasn't the second bank. I'd have to look at the sort of sequence of events, but I went through in my mind it's six banks, but I think it was five banks. Same thing, every time almost.

After the drive-by, and I think what was happening is when they sent the 23:00drive-by appraiser out, he drives down into the West End, and is all of a sudden like some person probably, not from the West End, who realizes that they're actually about to go look at a property in the West End. At that time, people weren't really buying property down here, and they probably--I can only imagine as soon as they crossed 9th Street, they were probably like, "Whoa, do you know where this property is?"

That's all I can think because well like I said, that particular bank actually told me what was going on. Maybe that wasn't the second bank, that one. That's right, it wasn't the second one. I'll have to look at my paperwork. Somewhere between there, I was counting today, there were four banks, and I can't remember what the fifth bank was off the top of my head. I'll have to look.

But I was counting the four banks that I distinctly remember this whole thing happening with. And I called a friend of mine whose family is big in banking and--cause I went to Center College so I know a lot of people in Louisville. And I called a friend of mine whose family was big in banking and real estate. He 24:00said his uncle--called me back a couple of days later, and he said, "Well I talked to my uncle. And he said, like why am I having all of these problems? I don't get it? Like this is a very small loan. I have a stable job. Good credit--like whatever."

And he said, he goes, did you know what my uncle said? He said , "Take that address where your friend is looking for a place and draw a big red circle around that, for like a radius of 2 miles and you're not getting a loan in that area." It was insane because at the same time I was--they were trying to get me to--like the whatchacallit, I looked at other properties like in Butchertown and a couple of other areas that were almost double what I would be paying here. And 25:00they were no problem, you know what I mean?

So for twice the money in a different neighborhood, we could sign today. But down here--. So anyway, I ended up going through, I would say, six banks, but it must be that the sixth bank, which I will name which was River City Bank--

MJ: The African American bank--

CR: What's that?

MJ: That's an African American bank, aren't they?

CR: You know, they might be. I didn't know that at the time. And I feel like I've heard that. But no one I dealt with was African American. And it was interesting because the only way I got this place was I happened to meet the previous owners and they were an older couple that lived out in--sort of the--what is that neighborhood? Off of Taylorsville, kind of between 264 and Hykes Lane. I can't think of the name of that neighborhood.

MJ: Like Beechmont, or?

CR: That might be it, yeah, I think it's Beechmont. Yeah. Like I was just out there the other day and I can't think of--yeah if you go under 264 on Taylorsville and then kind of go to the right or to the--I guess that would be west, then you're--right, that's--

MJ: Yeah, I'm not sure what that--cause Beechmont is off Taylor Boulevard, so--

CR: Oh okay, yeah, that's Taylor Boulevard. This is more like between Taylorsville Road and, I guess, Bardstown Road kind of, but closer to--

MJ: Oh, Seneca Park area, just--

CR: Maybe, yeah, that might be--I can't think of the name of it. Not too far from like Hykes Lane area. But a little more east. Where they lived out there, I met them, and for whatever reason, they liked me. I liked them. We weren't really supposed to communicate cause that's just not conventional, but 27:00ultimately we ended up doing contract for deed. They said, "We'll do a contract for deed with you for, it was 6 months or a year until you can find a loan, like after you move here."

So I moved here, we did contract for deed, so I just paid them directly for some number of months, and then I had been through so many banks at that point that I was very frustrated, and someone told me to call River City Bank. And I did and I was like, "This isn't gonna work out." I was like, "These people are all crooked."

And I remember I was doing demolition work on the property. So it was a disaster, it was a mess. And this guy came from River City Bank, probably a little younger than me, real polite, jacket and tie, pretty soft spoken. And I was like don't you normally (inaudible 0:27:58.8) I'm gonna try to get this loan. Hello sir. I was like hey, how's it--I just was not really trying. And he 28:00came in and stood in like three feet of rubble and debris with me. Because in my mind, I'm like there's no way I'm gonna get this loan.

And he called me back the next day and he was like, "Yeah. We can totally work with you." He's like, "The numbers are there." He was like, "Yeah, there's no--," and I told him, I was like, "I've been having a lot of trouble. What's the deal?" And he said--he said something really interesting to me, he said, "Look, we're in the business of banking. We're not in the business of real estate. So basically we're not trying to own your property that we think we can speculate that's gonna appreciate in value and then we can take it from you or whatever."

And he's like, "We just do loans. If you can afford the loan, you get the loan. If you can't, you don't." And I was like, "That's great, that's the way it should be." But that's not how it tends to be around here. So I got the loan, but a lot of other crazy things happened. So at one point the bank that I had that sort of most sort of acrimonious, sort of antagonistic relationship with, 29:00they said, "Well we'll loan you $10,000 on that property cause that's all it's worth in that neighborhood."

That same day--so that fell through and I remember that same day, I was trying to get insurance on the property, and it's listed at 5,000 square feet, which is kind of a mis-listing. They sort of cheated on the square footage. But it's made of brick and when I started trying to get insurance on the property, they told me that the insurance value, a couple of different companies, the first one said that I had to insure it at $775,000.

And I was like, "What are you talking about? I just got off the phone with a bank that won't give me a loan cause they say it's only worth $10,000." And 30:00they're like, "Well, it's a 5,000 square foot brick building. If the rebuild cost on that would be three quarters of a million dollars." And I was like this is insane. So my insurance was going to be, at that point, like 2-1/2 times my mortgage, in terms of cost. I'm like this is insane. Like this system is completely just--it's not right.

But anyway, I finally got the place after five banks, contract for deed, and then finally an actual loan. And my realtor, she said, she's like, "We're going to go to the newspapers." Because really like we were so dumbstruck by all this that neither of us thought it was redlining at first. We just, it was 2005, it's like that doesn't happen anymore, right? In this market at the time, it was like 31:00everything was on fire.

And I was used to--I'd lived in Philly where people were just buying older properties left and right and it was just a thing. And she was like, "All right, we're gonna go to the papers." She said, " 've got friends at the Courier Journal, I've got friends here and there." I was like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah."

And I happened to mention it to my boss at my employer which is--maybe I shouldn't name him. It's pretty easy to know who they are. But a large academic institution in the city of Louisville. And my boss at the time, who I think of as being a very scrupulous person said, "Yeah, no, you're not going to the papers." And I was like, "What are you talking about?" And he goes, "Because this particular institution has a very close relationship with one of the banking institutions that you're talking about and that's not gonna fly."

And I was like, "Well this is crazy." So yeah, but you know, it's just fascinating. This neighborhood has had a hard--

MJ: Are you (inaudible 0:32:07.1) in the Russell or Portland? Cause you're kind of the edge.

CR: Oh me?

MJ: Yeah.

CR: I'm right on the edge. And it really depends on who you talk to or what map you look at. So I live on--maybe you can redact my exact address, but I live on Main Street and some people will tell you that the border, the southern border of Portland is Main Street, and others will tell you that it's Market Street. So I am literally in the border of Portland and Russell. And it is very much Portland and Russell. It's definitely the flavor of both of those neighborhoods.

MJ: Both of those are going through a revitalization now. It's (inaudible 0:32:57.6) cause everyone is trying to buy up everything in the neighborhood. 33:00Have you gotten offers for your property?

CR: Well I have, and it's weird. I mean, I think they are and I think they aren't. That's a whole other conversation, like what's really happening in the West End in terms of whatever you want to call it, like, evolution, gentrification, development. However you look at it, positive or negative, I think like everything else in Louisville, there's sort of the story of what's happening and then there's what's really happening.

I have gotten a lot of offers but they're these kind of generic offers. I don't even know who they are. I get phone calls and text messages pretty much every day now. But there--I don't know who they are. Mostly I think that they're just some probably out of town, whoever they are, I don't really know where it's all 34:00coming from.

But clearly they want to try to get your property for a very low price, and then, do whatever they're gonna do with it. Slumlord it out or--I don't think they're really doing real development. I think that they're, yeah, just doing profitable, sort of, low value rentals is what I think most of it is. So it's not really--

MJ: The PVA just went through and, I guess, changed everyone's taxes. So what are they saying your property is worth now?

CR: Last I checked, which was not that long ago, was really interesting. When I say not that long ago, it was within--certainly within--I can't actually remember what it was--it was sometime probably half-way through the summer, I think? It was at the value for which I purchased it.

Now actually I own this property, but I also own--a couple of years later, I bought the property next door at auction for cash. And I also bought the property behind me several years after that for cash. But the PVA on this first parcel is when I looked most recently, it was exactly where it was when I bought it 16 years ago.

And what's interesting about that, that's fine, probably keep my tax value down. I do recall it having gone up at one point before, I don't remember exactly when. But it seems to be where it is now and I have some neighbors across the street and their daughter works, I want to say in the PVA office, but it might be another office. And she--it's interesting to hear people in the neighborhood talk.

What many people think down here is I got this neighbor and they bought their house, I don't know what they bought it for, but let's say--they've been there a long time, I'm gonna guess they bought it for, I'm gonna guess, in the neighborhood of $50,000 years ago. And they've done quite a bit of work to it. It's a nice looking property. They've kept it up very well. They've done some additions and things, and their property value is still like really very low.

And what they think and many other people think is that--I mean, they, I think it, they think they have very sort of specific idea about sort of imminent domain and things. They seem to believe that there's a specific plan. I'm not sure that I believe anybody in any of those offices is smart enough to have that sort of nefarious of a plan.

But I do think that the overall strategy is not unlikely, which is that they keep the values, the tax values, low in the areas that they want to target, so that if the city or developers want to come in and buy properties, they can get them at a good cost, or good price. So it is interesting that, and I'm not trying to alert the PVA, I don't want my taxes raised until the day before I try to sell my house. But it is interesting that in 16 years and all of this supposed interest in the West End that oh, the value of my property hasn't increased at all? I mean that's sort of surprising, to say the least.

MJ: We're in the red hot real estate market again.

CR: Yeah, yeah absolutely, right? So that all is very interesting and I think 38:00there's what everyone says is happening down here, then there's what's really happening. They're not congruent and I think that--that whole trying to move here was my first, sort of, rough lesson about Louisville, and it was basically like oh, it's that racist. Also that people--the West End is not probably ever going to--and I don't mean--I don't really want to get into the conversation about gentrification, whether that's good or bad, but let's just say develop.

Cause I'd like to see people who live here just have better access to anything at all. Food, retail, socializing, I mean there's nothing here. There's no jobs, and the city's not even educating the children of the West End, right? Bus them 39:00all the way across town to a shitty school that you built across town so you can say you that you bused the kids across town, but you're still just sending them to a shitty school.

And now, I guess the new plan is to bring them all back to the West End. They're gonna build some more shitty schools in the West End, I guess now. Then that way, they don't have to have the black kids and the poor kids--because if you're white and poor in the West End, you get pretty much the same treatment as if you're black.

But now they're just gonna build shitty schools in the West End so that these parents in the East End can fit more of their children in the schools that they want to fit them into and they don't have to be around poor people and people of color. I just didn't really realize how it was, but I don't think the West End of Louisville, at least with current trajectories and strategies, it's not going to experience a renaissance, I guess is the way I would like to look at it.

And I think the reason is it's just like probably the most racist city I've ever 40:00had experience in, and people are not gonna--the people of Louisville are generally not going to move to an area where there's this many black people. It's just not gonna happen. And then, it's a strategy, right?

I mean, this is a long conversation for another time, but Hunter Thompson's article like 55 years ago about Louisville, which I read in high school never thinking I'd even go to Louisville, and then reread after I moved here just because something told me to reread that. And then I sort of forgot that it was all about housing and the problems of race and housing in Louisville. I mean, he just nailed it.

MJ: Is this the article about the 800 Building?

CR: About which building?

MJ: The 800 Building?

CR: No, I think it was, he might have mentioned that building there. It's called, "Louisville: A Southern City with Northern Problems."

MJ: Okay, yeah, that's what I was thinking of, yeah.

CR: Yeah, yeah. I think he might mention that building there, but he just talks about how--and this was 55 years--way before he was talking about the redlining and stuff. But if you just sort of look at what's happened since that article, he talks about how the developers, the realtors, and the banks--when, especially Portland, but more of the West End was white. They started building properties in the east which was farm lands, and at that time everybody shopped downtown and they lived close to downtown.

They couldn't motivate people to move to the suburbs cause it wasn't a concept yet and there was nothing out there. So they would convince a white family to 42:00move to the suburbs and then they would move a black family into an all-white block in the West End and block bust and within a year, they would get rid of all those people. This city has continued that strategy in the sense of telling people not to go west of 9th Street, not policing the West End, not educating the residents of the West End, so that if someone would give them the opportunity for a decent job they aren't always sort of skilled or sort of introduced or initiated into whatever that sort of field or area might be.

And you create this part of town that, you're just like, so you tell everybody it's so terrible that they should move as far away from that part of town as they can, which they've done for the last 70 years, 60 years or so. Now, you're 43:00not gonna get people to move back to this part of town. Plus, there's nothing down here and the city's not growing. So I'm like--sure 2003, 2004 when everything was on fire maybe, but it's not like--I mean it is hard to find housing in Louisville.

Like it's too expensive to live in the parts of town where most people want to live, but you're just not gonna get people who grew up in the Highlands. There are some, don't get me wrong, there are some people. And I say it's not happening, but there are people who are choosing to live in the West End that aren't from the West End now.

Hopefully not too much at the cost of residents who are--have been here for a long time. Hopefully there's not much displacement happening, but I don't really see it in terms of any kind of significant renaissance because it's just too racist and segregated of a city for that to happen. I don't think it's gonna 44:00happen on any sort of appreciable scale.

And the other thing that's happened is--I will name a name, Gill Holland, it's very interesting because we live in a polarized world now but we live in a--I think a city with very simplistic views. People either love Gill Holland or they hate him. But in reality, Gill Holland is complicated, right? I mean some of the things that he's doing are really good, and other things that he's doing might have less positive consequences, right?

And I'm not sure--I don't think he is doing those things intentionally--you know what I mean? Like anything that has a negative consequence, he seems like a good guy. I don't think that he--. But most people, either they're like he's the Devil or he's the Savior. And I'm like well there are good and bad parts of what he's been trying to do, but--and that's a whole other very complicated subject.

But one thing that happened is, as soon as Gill Holland even sneezed in the direction of the West End, the papers and the media all were like, "The West End is the new thing, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." And what's interesting is local people almost immediately started getting priced out. Because I don't know how it is right now, but 10 years ago, the vast majority of property in the West End I would say was owned by people that didn't live in the West End, right?

Families had properties here 60, 100 years ago. Their grandparents lived in the West End or they owned rentals in the West End. But a lot of property in the West End historically in the latter part of the 20th Century, has been owned by people that don't live in the West End, or at least no longer do. And it was 46:00ridiculously cheap here. If you're happy to live in an area that's deprived of city services and the conveniences of other parts of town, you get property really cheap.

But as soon as all that got in the papers, people started thinking that they were sitting on gold mines. So properties that--if you were down here before, you could find a building that looked vacant. You could call up the owner and you could probably get a building for $30,000, $40,000. I mean I paid too much for my building, but I didn't pay that much. I knew I probably could have gotten something like it cheaper or it cheaper but I was in a hurry and I still was like, "It still is a great value to me even if it's not a rock bottom price."

I think it's much harder to do that now because you got some person who lives out in J-Town that owns a couple of properties in the West End, and you're like, "Hey yeah, you want to buy that property?" And now all of a sudden they think they're sitting on the future, right, of the city. The price has gone up even though--well the prices went up but we still don't have retail, we don't have restaurants, we don't have any of these things that you would consider the sort of trappings of higher real estate prices.

Even now, like the city does recycling every other week now, and most of the time, they just don't come get our recycling. That means you have a month where you don't get any recycling. It's interesting. So I don't think that there's 48:00ever gonna be like a huge renaissance down here, but I'm a cynical person so prove me wrong.

I would like for people down here to be able to own properties that they might be renting, and also other people to be able to move down here, you know what I mean, if they want to find an affordable home for this to be a nice place to live for--it'd be great if there was some--a little more sort of socioeconomic and cultural mixing in this town. I think it would fix a lot of things or help to fix a lot of things, but yeah, so.

MJ: So had you heard about Louisville, how segregated it was housing wise before you came?

CR: Well, not in that way. I didn't really realize it was so segregated when I 49:00moved here. I mean I know this sounds crazy, but in many ways, I do think that this is--I mean, I go a lot of places and I try to pay attention to what's happening. But I mean I feel like this is one of the most segregated, racist cities in the country. And we've gotten bad ratings for that, but you go to the deep South and people are--they're more accustomed to seeing black people.

Whenever I go to the deep South, I'm always like on guard, you know what I mean? And I'm kind of the one who's actually being a little close-minded cause I'm expecting, it has this stigma but much of the time, most of the time I'm sort of pleasantly surprised. And a lot of it is segregated, but even in the segregated areas lots of times, well at least the black people have an economy. You know what I mean?

It's like, well that's the black part of town, but they have stuff. You know what I mean? They have a middle class or they own property or whatever. But that, we don't have that here. So to answer your question, no, I didn't really 50:00know it was so segregated. In fact, when I first moved here, I didn't really think it was like that.

I mean, I figured out very quickly and I remember I was in a relationship with somebody who had a nice house in the Highlands. We were at social event and I'd just moved here. Somebody asked me--a group of people were like, "How do you like Louisville?" And what I learned is, what they're really asking you is to tell us how much you love it here. And I was like, "Not that great so far."

And they were like, "Why not?" I said, "Well number one, I mean, it's just like exceptionally segregated." And I was like, "I've never seen a city ignore an entire part of its population like this. It is insane." And what people in 51:00Louisville will tell you is that it's not segregated. Maybe not as much these days, but until just a few years ago, they'd be like, "This is very diverse, very integrated city." And it's just not.

And actually, an upper class white person who is actually hosting the party which was in Cherokee Triangle, this was like in a nice house. So I had this crowd of people around me telling me that this was like a very progressive, not segregated city. And I was like, "Have you been around the city? Have you paid attention to how resources are distributed?"

It was really interesting because this essentially wealthy white woman took my side in this. She kind of walked up and was like, "What are you guys talking about?" And she was like, "No, he's right." And she pointed something out that I had at that point not really noticed or considered, and she said, and she grew up here, but she said, "You know this is one of the only cities that--."

I mean a lot of cities are segregated, like Cincinnati is also listed as being 52:00segregated, but the neighborhoods are very interspersed. Like you'll have an all-white neighborhood and a couple blocks over will be an all-black neighborhood. It's sort of mingled. She pointed out that, well, most of the black population has been like pushed to an--actually an end or an edge of the city. And there's no reason if you don't live down there for you to go down there.

Because they haven't put anything down there at that point. And really you can still now, there's no reason if you lived in the Highlands, you would ever go past 9th Street, even if you weren't scared. And she was like, "This is one of the only cities where you can go everywhere you need to go. You can go to school. You can go to work. You can got to the grocery store. You can go to the bar and the restaurant, and never see a person who doesn't look like you or never drive through a neighborhood that's not as affluent as the one that you 53:00live in."

And I was like, "That's really interesting. I hadn't really considered the geographic divide." I'd lived in plenty of segregated places before, but the geographic divide here, did a really good job of like kind of getting it all out of sight and then telling people not to go down there.

So I didn't know it was like that when I moved here, but I was surprised at people who I went to college with, Center College which would consider itself a progressive school and people who I grew up with who I would consider to be--or not grew up with but went to college with, who I would consider to be progressive and open-minded.

Who when I told them I was looking for properties and it ended up being primarily in the West End after a while, I mean, I couldn't believe the things that came out of people's mouths who I knew. I was like you--even in 2005 or 54:002004 which was much more progressive than 1970 or 1980, but wasn't like 2020 where you can't say--you know you have to be very careful of what you say--the things that they said about why I should not move to the West End were shocking to me.

Coming especially from people who--I'm like well these are educated, liberal people that are saying pretty much unacceptable things about why I shouldn't live in the West End.

MJ: What were some of the reasons?

CR: Well there was the one that everybody's heard which is you're gonna be targeted, you're gonna get shot, all that stuff. But one that stands out, it is somebody, it is an open-minded person, but they just said--and they're probably just thinking real talk, they said a lot of things but one of the things that just really stands out, they said, "You know, you aren't gonna be able to talk 55:00to your neighbors because they're just not gonna be--they're gonna be so uneducated and just like not intellectually able to kind of engage with."

And I just was like--I couldn't, I just couldn't believe it. It was classism and racism. Less racism because I'm black so. But if I were white, I wonder what the conversations would have been about that. So, yeah. I don't think I would live in another neighborhood in Louisville, just because I sort of grew a kind of--what's the word--like a sort of acrimony or like a disdain for just the way 56:00that the rest of the city has treated the West End.

Yeah, there are things that are difficult about living down here, but I don't think I'd want to live--maybe other parts of the city, they're more like the West End. It can be frustrating living here in some ways, sometimes. But I like it. There are good people and I just can't see joining the other team, you know what I mean? Like even if I didn't like it here, I don't think I could join the other team. Yeah, it's crazy.

Joe:Well you've liked it well enough to buy two other properties.

CR: Yeah, well and that's a whole other thing. That just seemed like a sort of wise -ish thing to do. The property next door I got exceptionally cheaply. I 57:00bought the house next door for--I guess, I don't know if I--is this gonna be like widely--

MJ: It's gonna be at U of L.

CR: Just like archived, or?

MJ: Yeah.

CR: Okay, so it's not like--you're not making a film tomorrow that--I just don't know how, like names and numbers. But I bought the house next door, I'll just say, for $10,000 at auction. I ended up gutting it and redoing the whole thing. It still needs work. I mean, that's another thing that happened, actually, when I moved down here.

Trying to hire contractors, I can think of just three right off the top of my head, but there are more. But three who I can think of, which is right now who I 58:00talked to about doing work. We had conversation and then they said where--, "Okay, where is it?" And then I told them where and they asked like, "Well can you like clarify where that is?"

And then they just said, "I don't work in the West End, like I won't work in the West End." And at that time, people didn't mind telling you why, you know what I mean? Now they'll probably give you some kind of shuck and jive or something. But at that time, they were like, "Oh yeah, I don't work down there cause they're gonna steal my stuff and I'm gonna get shot, and whatever."

But yeah, I bought that property for not a lot of money. And then I was kind of a victim of--I consider myself fortunate so I don't feel like the whole gentrification thing I think is an interesting and nuanced conversation, but 59:00like the house behind me, I had some neighbors who I was like pretty close with that lived there but they rented it.

And then they moved out and I tried to contact the owner about possibly buying it, and he would never get back to me. He rented it to these people and it was a disaster. I mean, I talked to several people about calling Child Protective Services on these people. It was terrible. There were drugs involved, but there were kids in the house and there was like all this stuff happening.

I didn't call CPS because basically someone who's in that field told me, they're like, "Yeah, if you do they're gonna take the kids away from their family. That's gonna happen." And I just was like, hmm, I don't know, like this--that's 60:00a tough call. But anyway, but they ended up moving out and actually the people that lived there ended up dying.

And I tried to contact the owner again, no response, and then before I knew it, he sold it to these guys who were like, I don't know, sort of developers. Whatever they do--they're flipping houses and stuff. Two guys from like the Highlands and whatever. It's interesting cause I ended up paying, well more than I did for the house next door for that house. But it's much smaller, in worse shape, and it was interesting because those guys didn't do anything with the house.

They just had for like some amount of time. And I told them at one point, I was like, "Oh you guys bought this." They were like, "Yeah." And I was like, "Well, I was trying to buy it. Please let me know if you ever do sell it." So after about a year, the city was just on him. This is the other thing, if you buy property down here--you own property down here, the city--it's just a Blitzkrieg 61:00of--they'll just come after you with violation after violation.

I could tell you so many stories about West End housing discrimination and stuff. And the problem is that they know that the wealthy people that own property down here, they'll just rack up the fines. They won't pay them. They don't care. They'll sell the property or they'll burn it down and get the--whatever. In the end, it'll be fine, but for most people down here that have managed to get a property, they can't afford to not pay the fines, right?

Because it's like, well, those $50 fines turn into $1,000 citation and a court visit, right? And then before you know it, you've racked up all this. And they know that they can kind of target these people. So we see the housing--the building inspector all the time. We never see the police. But anyway, these guys sat on it for a while. The city kind of hectored them for about a year. And I 62:00think they just decided it wasn't worth it.

Then they sold it to me for like almost twice what they paid. And I'm like, this sucks. I've been living here for like 12 years. I've been trying to buy this low value property. And then these two guys, they happened to be white, they were like young guys that have some money and are flipping houses. They come in, they buy it from this other guy who happens to be white. And a lot of people down here think, whether or not it's true, but they feel like white property owners are not as inclined to sell property to black buyers.

And this did definitely happen to me. I can't say that that's why it happened and I'm not sure that it is. But exactly what happened to me is like, oh, I'm trying to buy this property. Nothing. These two guys come out of nowhere, buy this property, do nothing with it, and then essentially double their money from me, who's a resident since 2005. So I ended up being a victim of this whole 63:00thing that we're talking about, without any payoff.

It's not like they fixed it up and I paid more. It's not like because these people are buying property, all of a sudden there's a shoe store around the corner that I can go to. It's just price is going up. But nobody's (inaudible 1:03:23.7). People that live down here are getting priced out and they're not even reaping the benefits of being priced out of their own neighborhood. So, yeah, crazy. I can ramble for a long time. Yeah.

MJ: This has been very informative for me.

CR: Well I could try to dig up some more specifics. I'm looking at the records I kept and they might not be as thorough as I thought they were. But I mean somewhere I have a cassette tape of a voicemail that one of these banks left me where they said a bunch of illegal stuff. And actually, I just opened right 64:00before our call from one of the banks that--one of the banks that I didn't really get into a long story with today. I didn't even open the letter of them calling off the closing. Because I had already gotten a phone call.

I realize that most of these sort of cancellations ended up being mostly phone calls, right? Where all the paperwork is gone but then they call you and they're like we're not doing it. Like we're backing out. But I read this letter from this bank and it said, let me just grab it--a couple of the banks, I didn't get all the way to closing with all of them.

This particular one, I don't think I went all the way up to closing. But it's a two line letter, one sentence or two sentences. It says, "We have given your requests [basically for the loan] careful consideration and regret that we are 65:00unable to extend credit to you at this time for the following reasons." Then there's a space, and it says: "Deficiencies in collateral based on appraisal report."

But the appraisal came back at the sale price, you know what I mean? So, anyway. And the comps nearby--so it's interesting, cause I look at that, and I'm like, well, what would happen if I was older and smarter at the time and had more time. That seems like a--I don't know, that's not congruent with how--with the practice of applying for a loan. So it's not like I got a super low appraisal on the property.

The appraisal was in line with the sale, the asking price. So, anyway. Very interesting, but, yeah. And it also says that based on the appraisal report, so I'm like, what does that mean? Deficiencies in collateral based on the appraisal report? I mean I think that means it's in a neighborhood where we're not gonna make much money or any money if you default on the loan. Which was a very small 66:00loan to begin with, so. I don't know, anyway. Such is life in the tropics.

MJ: All right, well thank you for talking to me today.

CR: Yeah, thank you for letting me go on and on.