Interview with Lillie Ingram, December 26, 2021

Michael Jones: This is Michael L. Jones with the Unfair Housing Project that's being conducted by Metro Housing Coalition and the University of Louisville Oral History Center. It is December 26, 2001 [2021] at 4:05. I'm talking with Miss Lily Ingram, who is a longtime resident of West Louisville, specifically the California neighborhood. So how are you doing today?

Lily Ingram: Just fine, and you?

MJ: I'm doing good. So tell me a little bit about your life, because you grew up in the California neighborhood, right?

LI: I grew up by Newburg.

MJ: Oh, you grew up by Newburg? All right.

LI: I grew up at Newburg. And when I turned 16, wasn't 16 yet, so when I turned 1:0016, then we moved here in the West End.

MJ: Okay.

LI: And from the West End, we've been living here at this residence ever since I was 16. And I'm 66 now, so like 36 years.

MJ: Okay, so I had thought you grew up on Hill Street, but it wasn't where you grew up.

LI: Originally we were from.

MJ: Okay, so what was your original house near Newburg? What street was it on, do you remember?

LI: The first house we lived in was on Newburg Road. And then from Newburg Road, we moved from Indian Trail. And from Indian Trail, we lived on Dupont Way, which is where we moved from when we came here to Hill Street.

JONES:So when you say we, how big was your family?

LI: Oh, we had four children, a mother and father.

MJ: And so what was Newburg like to grow up in?

LI: Wow, back then it was like living in woods, blackberries, picking blackberries, picking apple trees, growing apple trees, peach trees. You know, we lived like, it's like, and then my father and his best friend had a little farm there on--I can't remember the street, but they did their own cows and their own pigs and their own chickens. And we had an auntie, she wasn't original was my auntie, but we all called her Aunt Queenie. And she used to teach us how to pluck the chickens and fry the chicken in the grease outside. We had outdoors toilets.

MJ: So what year are we talking about here?

LI: Oh wow, let's say it's like--well I was born in '55, so it had to be like in 3:00'60, '61. Back then because I was like 7 or 8 years old. Maybe younger, but I still remember the way we had to live because, it's something you'll never forget. And we all had to stay in a certain vicinity of where we lived at because it was always divided.

Blacks on one side and white on the other side. And then we had a school which was Newburg Elementary, it was just black, it's where the blacks went at. And then there was like from the first grade on to the twelfth grade. And we got back in the seventh grade, they had changed it where we was able to go to a white school. So half of us went to Central, half of us went to Thomas Jefferson.

But it was still limitation of where we can be at and how we do things, because they still had a subdivision where the blacks go and where the white goes. And 4:00the majority of the white children always had buses, and we had to walk where we had to go at. Even though the snow was bad, we still had to walk. Even if the rain was bad, we still had to walk.

We never did get a bus to ourself until we moved here in the city. And (inaudible 0:04:19.9) didn't have that, we had to ride a regular bus line. And we had to pay for that. But that's what we did when we was young.

MJ: So what year did you move to the city?

LI: '69.

MJ: Oh okay.

LI: Was it '69? Yeah, '69.

MJ: And so your parents bought a house on Hill Street?

LI: On Hill Street.

MJ: And how were they able to do that?

LI: Oh, for one reason, well, my mother, she was working for the landlord, 5:00cleaning up houses. And we was out in Newburg, and we had to move from where we was. So he let my mother move into this home, and I think she paid like $500, maybe $600 for the home back then. But she had to work for him to do it, but then as time went on and different things developed in life for us, she was able to get a job at GE.

And once she got at GE and my father had always worked in there, (inaudible 0:05:34.2) Harvester. And that was the income that we lived off of, but my mother was the one that was really actually provider because she kept up everything. So the house was really given to us by her employer, because she worked for him. So--

MJ: Do you remember his name?

LI: Jack Ross. He's deceased right now. He was a Jew back then, and my mother 6:00was his housekeeper, cleaned house for him. So he knew the situation that we was in, and he provided a home for us. So that's the reason--that's how we got this home was through him.

MJ: And so was it different moving to the city from where you were?

LI: Well yes, because when we moved here, we was basically the only black on this street because it was all white. And it was hard for us to get to develop ourselves with the neighborhood because of the denomination of whites. But we had a lot of fights. We couldn't go down the store unless someone picked with us or want to fight us. And they had a restaurant down there that we was able to go in to a certain extent. But we was able to buy, because then, we was able to do 7:00a little bit more than when we did when we was younger.

MJ: And so you were at 18th and Hill, so you were close to Shively?

LI: Right. Well, yes. Shively is like across from the parkway. Where we live, but we never went to Shively because it was denominated for different ones. We had to stay in our zone. But it wasn't too hard because we was able to control ourselves. Now Park Hill and back down up in there was a majority of blacks because it was a project.

And the kids from the Park Hill area was going to the Park Hill area, going to school with you was not all black, which was Lyman T. Johnson was the principal then. And that's where we went to school at. And then from there, we went to 8:00Central and Male. And now, after I graduated then it just developed into where we was able to do more than we ever had did in our whole life, but it's still in relation to what we can do now even though life has changed.

MJ: So you had also--you lived in Park Hill for a while too.

LI: Yes, once I was like 17, I had to--well I was a young mother at 16. And once I had a new child, I had to move from my father's home, for various reasons why I had to. And I lived in Park Hill for years, about 4 or 5 years until I got a stable job, which I was working as a housekeeper at the Galt House at first.

And then I worked the Medical Center laundry in the Laundry Department when I moved to Park Hill, and then when I got hired at (inaudible 0:09:11.8) Cookies, my mother asked me to move in with my sister because she needed some help and support. So I moved in with my sister to support her during a time, then from there on, I started this living from places to places until I got settled. And once I got settled, I continued on raising my children.

MJ: So what was Park Hill like when you lived there?

LI: Oh, black.

MJ: Well now it has a bad reputation.

LI: Yes, yes.

MJ: But did it have a bad reputation then?

LI: No, it didn't have a bad reputation then because there was all different type of people living there, we do black. Our generation--our parents was more strict on what we did, how we did, and when we did, and who we associated with. And we all had to go to school, we all had to learn, we all had to go bed a certain time. You know with my kids, that's what we did. And there was more respectful children back then. Nowadays parents just don't care. Their kids having kids on kids, and so you can imagine why we're going through what we're going through.

MJ: And so you also lived in Village West for a while too, right?

LI: Yes, yes. I lived there too, and it wasn't a bad neighborhood then. It's like I said, we as parents was more respectful to our children because we was raised that a way. The problem was that when children started having children, 11:00then they just go opposite directions from where we was raised because my generation of kids is they still today, "Yes ma'am, no ma'am." They're more respectful for their elders and adults.

It's their children that they got now is that they spoil and they give them everything. And they want for more. So it's a hard generation (inaudible 0:11:32.9) right now, these kids.

MJ: So how many kids do you have?

LI: Four.

MJ: And how many grandkids now?

LI: Well I have 23 grandchildren and 8 great-grandchildren, and the reason why I have so many because my son is married into a family that's already there. Then my daughter did as well, but truthfully, I have like 13 grandchildren by blood 12:00and 4 great-grandkids by blood. But I accept all of them because I love all of them.

MJ: So after--so have most of the communities you've lived in all been in Louisville and all been in black communities?

LI: Well, yes and no. Now yes, all of them been black communities, yes. I mean but the--when I was like in my 20s at 23rd, I was living on Poplar Road where there was black and white. But that's where Thomas Jefferson High School was, and you couldn't go too far but then they started letting us come in at an early age. But still there was more white then there was black, and we still had conflict because of our skin.

And because we was there but--I managed to get through it and I was managed to take care of my kids a little better than what I was. And you have to keep them in instead of out. And then if you did to go out, you had to be with them because you never know what kind of environment you might get into at that time. But I think I brought my kids up in a good environment, even though it was a lot of racial going around, but they all respectful now.

MJ: So have you always lived in a black community because that's where you could find housing or because you felt more comfortable?

LI: Oh, you know, very much comfortable. I never did try to go out of my way because I was afraid. Just like they're afraid of us and I'm afraid of them. So 14:00I try to keep a balance where I can be able to be around people that will respect me as an adult. And I like to keep around older--I've lived around older people too as well. My mother and them's ages. That's where I always try to do.

MJ: And so you said that when you moved to Hill Street, it was mostly white still. You were the only black family?

INGRAM:Right.

MJ: Yeah, yeah.

LI: No when we moved here on Hill Street?

MJ: Yeah, yeah, on Hill Street. And so when did more black families start moving in?

LI: When we moved in. So when we moved in, they started moving out. And then 15:00more blacks came in. And then majority of blacks that was raised up here is still here. But there's a lot of empty houses now today, because they moved out and has no one moved in. But they moved in, they moved out. But this is where I end up at. Here on Hill Street still.

MJ: So I noticed a lot of empty houses on the block, and why do you think people aren't buying them?

LI: Most likely because they all old now and rundown, and then we are able to buy newer houses and better homes, so I guess we all go out and buy homes where in Shelbyville, (inaudible 0:15:46.2), we're able to do more things than then we did beforehand. So don't too many people want to come in West End no more because of the balance. I can't say the right word, but because too much going on.

A lot of shooting and killing and fighting and--and don't nobody want to be in this environment no more. So they moved out where it's peace and quiet, but see me, I keep myself--I keep myself in the position where I'm alone all the time. I don't visit at all or associate with nobody. So that's one reason why I don't.

MJ: So have you thought about moving out to one of those other areas?

LI: Oh yes, oh yes. I have plans on doing it, but right now, I'm taking care of my father. He's 90 years old, and he's used to being in his home. And I would choose not to put him in a nursing home because we don't know how they would treat him because of his reactions that he give to me and to others. So we keep 17:00him at home as much as we can.

Now he's bedridden where he can't do too much of anything. Then he has dementia a lot, he's got Alzheimer's. So I've tried to stay here until I'm able to do it. And once I'm able, I'm thinking about it. I'm not saying I will because I don't have no financially support right now, but in the future, I'm planning on to.

MJ: And so how much of--you talked about the violence and stuff in the community, and have you experienced that, seen it, like people that you've known in your community been involved in it, or was it just something from the news?

LI: Yes, from the news and people that lives around here now, I don't know them too well. But I see them. And if there's like an argument or a fight, well I 18:00haven't had no killings, had a lot of accidents and car accidents on 22nd Street. But there has not been no killings or nothing around here unless it's on another street. And I hear about it on the news. Maybe it was down the street and I might hear it on the news, but far as we actually knowing, I couldn't tell you.

MJ: You know there's a lot of efforts going on to revitalize the West End, specifically Russell. They're spending a lot of money in that now. Are you hopeful that it will actually change anything?

LI: It all depends on--well I believe so, because it all depends on who moves in the neighborhood because majority of people that moves in those type of homes, they're working people. And they would like to have a nice home, even though they love the West End because their family's around. So it all depends on if 19:00they're able to get there and able to do there.

So everybody's not bad. It's just kids just don't understand the value of life. If they realized the value of life, there wouldn't be so many killings. And I'm not going to blame it on the parents. I'm going to blame on their children individual because majority of the people that I know--

MJ: When do you think it started to change with the violence like the nature of the community started to change?

LI: Yeah, I'm going to tell you, I think it's the change of that milk. When we was walled up with cat--what was it, pet milk? And canned milk, evaporated milk? And we raised our kids on that. And homogenized milk? When they start putting the chemicals in these kids' milk, giving us powder, and I think that's what--I think it was something inside that milk.

I could be wrong, but I think it's what it was, because these kids ain't real. 20:00They got so now that the kids' bodies would not change. I mean will not--they can't use the milk that their parents have bought them too because something--it's something that they're giving these kids these days. I mean the medications and shots and all that good stuff--I think that's what it is. I don't believe in all that.

MJ: Well when you--was there a time of like a year or something specifically when you start to notice a transition in the community?

LI: When the drugs came in?

MJ: Uh-huh.

LI: The drugs--and that's another thing, the drugs, which the parents of not my kids' generation. The generation that I came up in, the parents was most likely 21:00on drugs. And then once they're on drugs, they get pregnant and they have kids on--while they're on drugs. And the drugs get in their systems and then when they trying to raise them up and trying to do right, it braincells they have is developing to chaos.

MJ: So would this be when crack came in?

INGRAM: : Yeah, crack, heroin, and some hours not too long ago, I didn't know nothing about it. I keep things to myself. And anybody can come talk to me about things. But I found out they said something about some ice. I don't know about no ice. But she was telling me that she had some, and I told her to keep her mouth shut. I didn't want to hear it. But she just telling me things because she trusts me.

But I didn't know nothing about no ice. I thought it was just weed and crack 22:00cocaine. But now there's everything. It's just she's--these kids on drugs, having babies while they're on drugs, and when the kids grow up, they just go crazy.

MJ: So would you say around the '80s, around the time that the crack epidemic was starting, you noticed it?

LI: Yeah, about the '80s. And now this--it's just terrible now.

MJ: And so when did the houses started to empty? When the people started to leave?

LI: Oh shoot, they started leaving when--in the maybe the '90s? Because these houses been empty for years. That's my grandson is like 28, and his mother lived in one of them. And she moved out and then nobody else lived in it since then.

MJ: And how old was he when she moved out?

LI: Oh he was like 2 or 3 years old--

MJ: Well so it's for like--it's been empty for like two decades?

LI: Yes, yes. It's been empty for a while. And people try to fix them up and get them together, but I guess the (inaudible 0:23:15.8) houses like the one I'm in is the electricity and plumbing is bad. But it's--you can live in it, but you have to do so much to be comfortable in it. Especially if you don't have the money to fix it. But it just these old houses and you have to put a lot of work in it. A whole lot.

MJ: And have you looked into or has your father like looked into getting loans? Like home improvement loans, or?

LI: He don't believe in getting loans, because he don't want to pay them off. Because he don't have the kind of income to be able to pay a loan off. He is 24:00have enough money coming in like--he was getting like--we was getting $900 and they gave him a $60 raise. So he has like $1,000 a month income and since his house is paid for, all he pays LG and light and maybe cable. And then what little bit he has left, he try to save it.

So he don't have enough money to redo the whole house. But if it was up to me, and if I had the opportunity, but see, it's a lot of chaos going through anyway. If it was up to me, I would get one just to rebuild the home. To make it livable, because I can afford to pay for it. Because it's not a mortgage--it won't be a mortgage, it be a payment. But it wouldn't be as bad. But I can't do it right now because it's not my home, it's his home. And he cannot afford it. 25:00So I don't even try to get into it, right now, I don't.

MJ: So do all your kids live in the West End?

LI: No, well my baby--my oldest daughter lives in Hoptown. And then my oldest son lives in Shively. And then my oldest daughter, she lives in the West End on Southern Parkway, out Southern Parkway. And then my baby boy lives out on 3rd Street. We have 3rd Street so they all live different areas, because they all got their own homes now. So I'm the one that's here. But my father--and I'm not going to say I'm stuck because I love everything I do for my father.

Because if it wasn't for him, I wouldn't be here and my mother wanted me to take care of him because she knew that wasn't nobody else do it. So I stay here with 26:00him--to help him out. It's kind of hectic at times because I'm not able to go nowhere or do anything. I'm here all day long and I do have a brother that will watch him as long as I'm working, but if I'm not working, he won't watch him. They won't even come over to visit for a couple of hours. I'm just here right now.

MJ: How many brothers and sisters do you have?

LI: Well, I got three brothers and I got one sister that I grew up with. And I have--I found out about three years ago that I had another sister and another brother. But that was on my father's side. But everybody's got their own right now and doing their own thing. All of them is successful. My sister is successful. My brother is successful. All of them got their own. All of them 27:00doing good.

MJ: So where did your parents grow up?

LI: Well my mother was from Owensboro, Kentucky. She grew up in Owensboro, Kentucky. And my father was born in Indiana, in New Albany, Indiana. And once as the segregation wasn't where they can travel, they traveled and connected in--my mother came to Louisville with her sister. And once she came here to Louisville with her sister, she ended up meeting my father. And my mother was pregnant with my oldest sister at that time.

And my father was with someone else, and she was pregnant at the time. So they--I guess it's first love at first sight, and they end up getting married. And he ended up raising my sister and he helped--my mother helped him raise the 28:00son that the lady was pregnant with when they got married. And my mother made sure we stayed strong because she believes in a strong relationship. So then they had us--had me and my other two brothers. But originally we just have four.

MJ: Did you keep in touch like go to Owensboro and see your family there?

LI: No, because I never knew anybody in Owensboro, Kentucky. But my mother went down there at times. But I do know all of my people. Some of my people in New Albany and Jeffersonville because my mother always had the connection with my father's family, more so than her family were--her family all--all her sister and brother came to Louisville (inaudible 0:28:53.5) Kentucky.

And I know all of them. I know all of them and I know their children, but we 29:00didn't associate with my mother's people. We always associated with my father's people. So that's how it goes.

MJ: Your mother went to church over in Indiana, did she?

LI: She went to (inaudible 0:29:19.2) Baptist Church, which were the family of my father's people when--which is his brother was a minister there, Reverend Charles Ingram, but Reverend Motley was the head pastor there. And my mother went there just to be close to his family.

MJ: And so whenever you visited Indiana, did you see any difference in--as far as the treatment of black people, or what the communities where black people lived?

LI: Well I can't say that about Indiana because I was kind of afraid in Indiana. Well when we went to visit, we stayed in a house and we all did everything as a family in the household. And my auntie--one of my aunties lived in the projects where she was able to get the apartment right behind the playground where my mother and her was able to watch us while we played in the playground. But when it gets dark, we all came in and we played. That's why we so close because our children, my father's children, brothers, we all hung together. But we don't know the--

MJ: Okay, well that's all the questions I had. Is there anything I didn't ask you about?

LI: No, is there anything you want me to do.

MJ: Thank you.

[End of interview][0:30:52.0]