Interview with Sheila Brown, December 29, 2021

Michael Jones: Hello, this is Michael L. Jones. I'm with the Unfair Housing Oral History Project that's being conducted by the Metro Housing Coalition and the University of Louisville's Oral History Center. It's December 29th at 5:35, and I'm talking to Miss Sheila Brown. How are you doing?

Sheila Brown: I'm doing good.

MJ: So we are dealing with housing and we had interviewed your daughter, Tia, and she told us a little bit about your life. But can you tell us a little bit about how you grew up? Where you grew up and the different places you lived?

SB: (Muffled sound)

MJ: Your sound is a little muffled.

SB: No, every time I'm on this computer--can you hear me now?

MJ: Yeah.

SB: I need to get closer, that's all. (laughs) I'm away from the speakers. But I actually grew up in the Parkland neighborhood. That's where I actually grew up as a child. As an adult, I moved around a few neighborhoods and I--of course, now I'm settled in Fern Creek, but I have lived in several neighborhoods throughout the city of Louisville. What specifically would you like me--

MJ: What was Parkland like when you lived there?

SB: When I lived there, it was nice. You know, because I'm a little bit older than some. And it was nice. I was there when they had the big riots.

MJ: Okay, how old were you then?

SB: So prior to riots when they--oh, I went to kindergarten on up from there. So on the riots, I probably was about, I'm going to say between 7 and 9 years old, because I'm forgetting what year it happened.

MJ: '68.

SB: (Muffled sound)

MJ: Okay, you're still going out a little bit.

SB: --said either. I would have been 5 when that happened. Can you hear me now?

MJ: Yeah, okay.

SB: Okay, I would have been 5 when that happened. But prior to that, my neighborhood, I mean even with that when they did the '68, I went through kindergarten and fifth grade and it didn't really affect me because I was so young, I imagine. But my neighborhood was still nice to me. We could still--because even as a teenager, I remember us still being able to stay out at night and, you know, we were the ones when the streetlights went off, we came in, that kind of thing.

But you didn't have to worry about anybody bothering you or anything. Because when I got into my high school years, I remember parties and things. We used to have a lot of block parties and stuff in the neighborhood. So those things, we 3:00used to do and there was never any of the mess--well there probably was, but we didn't hear about it. Any of the mess that goes on now, you know. I mean that neighborhood's gone down tremendously.

Because when I moved once Tia was born, that's when I really had to do my own house. Okay, and my first apartment was in the West End. It wasn't a nice house, it was an apartment, and it wasn't the best. So once I got out of that, I moved into a little house for about a year, and I was one of those that did receive Section 8.

So I finally got an apartment that was subsidized, and that was out in the Douglas Park area. And then from there, I moved out Hikes Point area, Goldsmith, apartment called Linderhof and that was under the subsidy. And then after I'd moved there one year, I bought my house in Newburg.

MJ: And Tia told us you were part of a program for--

SB: Well homeownership, they still do that today. Homeownership program? They still do it today. You go through the program, you get your credit straightened out, you do whatever is necessary to get certified to show that you're ready to buy a house. So I went through that program when I was getting my first house. So I did that. And I stayed in Newburg for about ten years. My first eight years it was pretty quiet. Last two years, it got rough.

So rough to the point that I used to have an older lady that lived to the right of me, and an older lady that lived to the left of me. Well the older lady that lived to the right of me had a son, and she eventually passed, and next thing I know, all kind of shady folks were coming around in that area, right there basically. Loud music, I know there was drug dealing going on, and I know there 5:00might have even been prostitution, because I remember calling a police officer because folks were in front of my house and it was female in the car when the police got there.

So I'm thinking that stuff was going on at that point and time. Mind you, this is a situation whereas I'm supposedly sitting catty-corner to a police substation because they had built a substation in Newburg around that time. Apparently it wasn't doing any good, because like I said, it just got bad. It got so bad one time, there was a shooting in our neighborhood. My car got shot and my house had shooting on it because of that next door neighbor I was telling you about.

MJ: Is that why you left Newburg?

SB: That's why I finally got on out of Newburg. And when I left Newburg, I ended up in Maryland. (laughter) So I did that for two and a half years and then I came back to Louisville. And then it was just a matter of finding my spot again. 6:00So when I first came back, I ended up at those Churchill Park Apartments, that's what they were then, they're now the Enclave?

MJ: Where is that?

SB: It's on Breckenridge Lane in Hikes Point, up in through there. Then I moved over into that area I was telling you about, Yorkshire, Berkshire area, it's still in the same area, the Hikes Point area but across. It used to be a K-Mart. So over there behind where the K-Mart was.

And then from there, is when I moved into the house in--what's that area--Glenmore, Graymoor, Graymoor, the Graymoor subdivision. And I stayed there a year, and then I bought my house here in Fern Creek. And I've been here ever since. So I've been in Fern Creek since 2006 in this particular house.

MJ: Okay, I wanted to ask you a little bit more about Parkland. Because did you live there until you moved on your own?

SB: Uh-hm, I did.

MJ: And so after the riots like, do you remember what was the reaction from your parents and your neighbors to what had happened?

SB: You know, they never did really talk about it. My parents never talked about it. I don't think any of us really talked about it. It was just a matter of everybody talked about the fact that, "Well ever since the riots, everything went down." You know, that's all you're hearing. Well remember we all tore up our own neighborhoods. You know what I'm saying? And after that, nobody ever really fixed it.

I mean, there were stores still there that hung around I guess as long as they could. I remember Marchbanks, they stayed around as long as they could. The little old ladies, they had a little sewing store and notary service over there. 8:00They stayed around for a while. The five and dime, Trail and Stovall, they stayed around for a little while but eventually gone. Because he just didn't have the patronage that you used to have at first.

Nobody was patroning the way they used to. Because it wasn't a whole lot, we used to have that little Tony's Meat Market. After the A&P, used to be A&P, it was Winn-Dixie, that thing, between it once it went, I mean really everything went. Once that was gone, that was really your source.

MJ: So by the time you moved out, it was totally--the neighborhood had been transformed?

SB: Uh-hm, it had, it had. Because all of that was gone by the time I moved out of there. Like I said, Trail and Stovall, they stayed around as long as they could, I guess, selling the little five and dime. But it wasn't much else there. You had that little--there was a thrift store I remember over there. It stayed 9:00around for a little while, but you just didn't have any patrons. So what do you do? You move on. So that's what happened,

MJ: What schools did you attend when you were living in Parkland?

SB: Parkland Elementary School, that's what it was. It's now Maupin I believe? And I was there from my kindergarten through my fifth grade. And I tell everyone, anybody that talks to me I tell them, had I not attended that school, I'd probably be dumb. Because we had some of the smartest teachers, the best teachers.

And I think if it were not for my education at Parkland Elementary prior to busing, I would be like some of these kids I see today that just don't know the back of their hand from the front. Because we really got educated. The teachers cared. I can see now that they really don't. They didn't as I went through Fern Creek, because that's the middle school I got bused to. It was not the same kind of caring, and I tell you a traumatic experience for me.

I call it traumatic because I remember it so vividly that I went to a teacher on a math problem that I could not solve. And I went to this teacher to see if she could help me with this problem. Well the teacher could not solve it, and the teacher never got back to me to help me solve that problem. And I'm like, this would have never happened had I been amongst the teachers that I was being taught before--before I went to Fern Creek.

MJ: So was your elementary school mostly the teachers African American?

SB: Yes, they were. All of my teachers were. I don't think I--well I had one Caucasian teacher, and she was my music teacher. As a matter of fact, I'm still in touch with her. She's one of my Facebook friends and I've actually--when my daughter went to Fern Creek High School, I was on the same PTA board with her. And that's how I found out that she was my same teacher from my music teacher, because I was like surely that can't be her.

Because I was like a kid. I wasn't even in the double digits in age yet. So I had to ask her, I said, "Did you teach?" I'm like, "Wow." You know, here I am alongside one of my music--she was Caucasian. The rest of them were African American. All my other teachers were African American.

MJ: Yeah, so in middle school, did you feel you were that first generation of people bused?

SB: Yes I was.

MJ: So a lot of attention around it. Did you feel that?

SB: I saw the bonfires. Our buses had to cross through them. I mean, we went through those white people treating us like they treated us, cussing us out, we're kids on a bus and these grown people out here cussing us out. Calling us all kind of niggers and everything else. And I just really couldn't grasp that because they were being bused into our schools, but we weren't doing the same thing. You know what I'm saying. I'm like, "These are adults and we're children."

And they were burning bonfires. I remember that little curve. I go through that 12:00little curve all the time now and I think about that, I'm like, "Wow. I remember the bonfires when I used to turn this corner." When busing years and it's stuff like that. And what makes it so crazy is that even though we were bused out here, a lot of us still lived out here anyway. I had cousins that lived out here, that I didn't know about until later on, but they grew up out here.

And I'm like, that just baffles me to no end. But I would assume that they took the brunt of a lot of the racism that we dealt with when we came out of there. Because they were probably the minority as far as living out here then.

JONES:So did you feel any kind of negative feelings from your teachers?

SB: Yeah, you know, I had a teacher one year in my math class, another math teacher. She was giving me bad grades but I was making decent grades on my 13:00paperwork, and I'm like, "Well why is my grades not matching?" You know what I'm saying? So finally my mother ended up having to come up and straighten all that out. Because my grades were not matching what I was getting as far as the student's grades. So yeah, I felt that too. I saw that.

MJ: And so were you bused in high school too?

SB: Middle school.

MJ: Yeah.

BROWN: Middle school only. It was sixth, seventh, and eighth grade. Yeah, I was here when the--Fern Creek when the big tornadoes hit. Because I remember that too. (laughs) So we were in the auditorium, that's where they had us while those tornadoes were starting up.

MJ: So where did you go to high school?

SB: Manual, duPont Manual High School. And it was fun. (laughter) Back then it was fun. Yeah, we had a good time. We had a good group of people. One of my old Parkland alumni and some--they were there too. So you know we got to back to 14:00that closeness again where you lose that closeness when you were bused out into Fern Creek at that point and time. Because all of us were not in the same classes. We were basically minorities because there was only so many percentage wise that they would bus into certain areas.

MJ: What year did you graduate Manual?

SB: '81.

MJ: Okay, I'm the class of '88, so. (laughter)

SB: Seven years later. (laughs)

MJ: So what was Manual like when you were there?

SB: It was fun. We had a good time. I mean, I'm not saying I was the best student at Manual. No, (laughs) I probably wasn't. But we had a good time. When it came as far as our principals and teachers, you got back to a little bit of the closeness with some of the teachers. You had different ones that were pretty 15:00good. I remember our principal, Mr. Sauer, I can't say his name, S-a-u-e-r, Sauer. I mean, he would join in with our pep rallies and stuff, and we would have--I mean we would just have a good time.

MJ: Yeah, so you were still living in Parkland then? When you were in--

SB: Yes, I was, I was. And I rode the TARC to school. Yeah, I rode the TARC to school, I didn't catch a school bus because we'd catch that Hill Street bus straight up. (laughs)

MJ: Same thing I did. (laughs)

SB: Yeah. (laughs)

MJ: So what'd you do after high school?

SB: After high school, I went to Sullivan College of Business for a couple of years. I almost graduated, but I didn't graduated because I had Tia. So I was like five classes away from graduating, and then I ended up going into the workforce. And then, a little bit later on, I went back to school. I did get my 16:00associate's degree. I actually got two. I got an associate in computer science and then one in programming. One in programming, one in processing.

So I got those and then later on, like I said, I stayed in the workforce. And I worked, went to school, raised my daughter. I ended up working for several places. I worked at a daycare. Then I went to the state. I worked for the commonwealth attorney's office. And about two and half years from there, I went to the state itself working as a secretary for the field services administrator there, and ended up being a person who was an ombudsman, so to speak.

Because my line was dedicated to solving problems and getting people where they needed to go. So I did that for a couple of years. And then I went to the city and worked as a personnel clerk for about three and a half years. And from there what did I do--I went to Wyatt, Tarrant & Combs. I did that for about eight months, and then I went into collections for an automobile dealership. No I did 17:00the automobile dealership, I'm trying to remember which way I did that, one way or the other, I'm trying to think where I jumped.

Yeah, I did the automobile dealership after Wyatt, Tarrant & Combs. And then I ended up going from the dealership doing collections to Humana. In Humana I did claims, customer service, what have you. I did that for about six or eight months. And then I went to Humana's corporate as an administrative assistant. And from there, I ended up in Maryland (laughs) as an administrative assistant. And I pretty much stayed on that track--

MJ: You moved to Maryland because your daughter was living there?

SB: No, no, no, no. Well let me tell you the story of Humana. (laughs) You said you want to get there. At Humana, I worked there as an administrative assistant. I'm really good at what I do as an admin. That's why I got hired. Even when I 18:00left the claims customer service area, people were like, "Well people don't usually leave here and go over there." Da-da-da, you know, what have you. Well I knew coming in that that was my plan to get where I needed to go.

You know, sometimes you got to go back door to get to the front door. So I did the back door route because I knew my skill set was not really just to be doing claims. I'm a people person so I'm going to fit in where any and then fit in everywhere. I'm going to do that. So I got in, I excelled at that. And then I got hired by the underwriting department as an admin for Humana.

I supported both the underwriters and the actuaries. And that included my director and sometimes the Vice President of Humana Underwriting. So that's what 19:00I did for two and a half years there. My boss ended up going to Maryland, and I'm still there at Humana. I got a new boss. This boss was racist, and he started coming in at me like I was doing something that I shouldn't have done.

But this dummy didn't realize that I was the one holding him up. And so I had to go through the process of going through the human resource situation and filing the grievance and what have you because of his racist actions, because of a secretary--who was the secretary to the VP was always in his ear trying to make like I wasn't doing something I was supposed to do.

When in fact, she was the secretary that would conveniently disappear when it was something she didn't know how to do, because they would give it to me to do it. So that's why she would conveniently disappear. Well at one point, she gave 20:00me something to do because she was going to be out--she was going to be off work for something.

Then she sent this stuff to me and her VP, one who everybody used to--I mean everybody in there used to say this man was racist, what have you. So I had to commend him, because when I went to him when she gave me this mess she gave me, I went to him and I told him, I said, "This is what she sent me." And I asked a question, I said, "Isn't this a legal situation? What's going on?" He was like, (sighs), "Give me that. Give me that" He said, "Yeah, it's legal."

And he would come to me and respected me, so if he was racist, at least he was racist away from me. (laughs) He didn't hit me with it. Turns out, the new boss that I got was my racist boss. So I was on the track at Humana to be aggressively compensated each year as far as a raise. I would get an 8 percent each year until they got me where I should be based on my skill, because most jobs--they can't just jump you in there when you already work for them.

So they got to find a way to get you on a track. So I was on the track to do 21:00that. This new boss came in, he was going to take away my 8 percent and give me a 2 percent. So by the time I got through fighting with him and HR, and he's talking about what he didn't know, I said, "Well had you looked at my paperwork you would have saw what you had. Had you paid attention to who was doing what around here, you would have saw what you had. You went and listened to that girl tell you all this stuff, and it was not true and you were ready jump in and just do me in."

So when I got through with that situation, I ended up getting that 8 percent plus 3 or 4--I ended up with a 12 percent raise that year. And then my boss is always in my ear, the ex-boss was always in my ear, "Man, I can't find a good secretary. I can't find a good admin. Da-da-da-da-da." And you know I had never been anywhere, never took a chance.

So I took a chance and I said, "You know after I finish cleaning all that up and putting that person in their place (laughs) so to speak," because they were trying to put me in mine where I didn't belong, I ended up quitting and going up there to Maryland. But by that time, I was getting another $10,000 on what I was already making. So yeah, I went on and took the trip and stayed there for about two and a half years and then came on back home.

Because the cost of living there, housing there, just was not what I would want to pay for housing. So I came on back home, and from there, I worked for Metro Housing Resource Center which was downtown on 28th and Dumesnil. And when I came back there, that's when I noticed how bad it had gotten in the neighborhood. Because I remember pulling up to work one day and this white girl come to my car asking me for money.

Now I'm in Parkland and this white girl come up to me asking me for money, and then when I said I don't have it, she's like, "Dang, don't nobody got no money around here." And I'm like--I knew it was drugs. Somebody off on drugs. So that 23:00kind of showed me a little bit about how bad it had gotten from, I mean, even that point when I had come back because I worked down there and saw it. And of course, a lot of homes were now empty, dilapidated, and what have you.

Another incident I remember going to the car wash over there one day, and all these derelicts just running out. "I clean your car, I got to clean your car." I mean it scared me, but I'm like I got to hold my composure and get my butt out of here. So I saw how bad the neighborhood had gone then, because that was all still part of it because it was close to 15th and Broadway, I think. A car wash over there that I had went to. And like I said, the area, it just went down.

My brother, he still lived over there, and he bought a couple of houses over there and fixed them up. A cousin of ours--yeah, a cousin, because it would have 24:00been my mother's brother's in-laws, they ended up buying a couple of houses and fixing them up. But you know like I said, it was a whole different neighborhood. It was different. I can go down there now, like I said, I've seen it now, it's mixing. I can say that, it's getting black and white, but it's still bad.

It's still a lot of empty houses, a lot of dilapidated houses. After I moved back here, like I said, I moved to Churchill Park which is out Breckenridge Lane. So I've pretty much kept my kids, I would say, sheltered from a lot the stuff I've seen. So they really didn't see it or experience it.

MJ: Yeah, so you grew up in a majority black neighborhood, and you've lived in a lot more diverse areas and a lot of majority white areas. Have you had any situations because of that, of you moving in there?

SB: None with the areas I moved in. But I do recall when I was first on my journey of trying to find housing, I do remember a place that I looked at and they would not allow me to entertain moving into their complex because they didn't want children. But the thing of it is, I think it was a matter of they didn't really want black children, even though they accidentally probably got some in there anyway.

Because I know I'd used to see the area, and I'd see different kids over there playing. And I'm like, "Huh." You tell me you don't want children, but I'm seeing children. And here every now and then, I'd see a black child in there. So I think that was one of those accidentlys they got them in there or somebody probably went to the right people to express that they were being discriminated against. In fact then, I didn't have all that knowledge of who to go to.

MJ: So when you were in Maryland, how did the housing situation in 26:00Baltimore--was it--

SB: I wasn't in Baltimore. I was in Glen Burnie.

MJ: Oh Glen Burnie, okay.

SB: I moved to Glen Burnie. And I guess it was probably no worse than what we have, but the fact of the matter is, I moved into an apartment. And when I moved into this apartment, they hadn't cleaned it up good, and it was fleas. So I ended up having to sue (laughs) because I had fleas in an apartment. I only stayed there a year, and then I moved over to Gaithersburg. Because the job actually moved to Rockville, which is down the street from Gaithersburg.

As far as looking for housing there, like I said, I did not like the fact that for the price, you were only getting cracker boxes. Because when I got ready to look for a home in Maryland, I was going to stay and purchase and what have you. So I had a home loan approved for $180,000.

But the only thing I could get was a three bedroom townhouse in the ghetto of Gaithersburg where I was living. So I'm like, "Nuh-uh." And that was my decision to go home. I'm like I wouldn't dare. Pay $180,000, unless you've seen what you can get at home, and then you come to something like that. You just, nuh-uh.

MJ: So how did you end up back in Fern Creek?

SB: I just found a house, and it was a fixer-upper. And I just took that house, because I liked where I was at. I liked the area.

MJ: And has the area changed since you were younger?

SB: Since I moved into this neighborhood?

MJ: Yeah.

SB: Well you know it's changed since I was younger. I can say that. But since I've moved into this neighborhood, it's changed a lot. It's more diverse than it 28:00probably ever was, and I can give you that information from being a census worker last year. I did the census so I saw some things that a lot of people don't realize, and it's extremely diverse. I mean you've got everything in her now.

You've got Bosnian, you've got Indian, East Indian, African, Ghanian, Gambian, Senegalese, everything. I mean, I interviewed a little of everything, and I pay attention. I'm like, I mean I feel like that's a good thing when you're all living in the same area together, because you get to see and feel each other. And you get to know that we're not really that different from one another.

And then you have these children that end up with this diverse group of friends, and I think that's one way of cleaning out all the mess when you get that diversity like that. It's not everywhere. I wish it was. Because I feel like that's a good thing when they all can relate to each other.

MJ: So what year was it that you moved to Newburg?

SB: Newburg was '91, I think? I think it was '91 when I moved to Newburg--

MJ: For the first eight years, it was really a close knit community?

SB: Yes it was, because my daughters, they had little friends in the neighborhood and I could allow them to go walking and, you know, throughout the neighborhood. No problems what have you. And then like I said, eight years in after that, it just started going down. I mean, it got to a point where I--it went down. But I do see when I pass through different areas now, they're trying to build some things up. But you still have that element. That element is keeping things from getting where it needs to go. But other than that.

MJ: So did you say you worked at the Housing Authority?

SB: Metro Housing Resource Center--

JONES:Okay, Metro Housing Resource Center.

SB: --yeah, that's a place where they would give grants to get people's water heaters and furnaces fixed and things like that. At one point, they used to service mortgage loans. They actually gave loans. So there was a few loans that I had to help service and make sure we were getting payments on them.

Because as a matter of fact, I was told that I actually saved the company (laughs) at one point, because I used my collection experience to start collecting on these loans that were just sitting there and they weren't collecting on them. And I ended up getting a payoff on one of the loans, and I think that's what helped stabilize us for a little bit.

MJ: So were these loans to people who couldn't go to a traditional bank?

SB: I believe so. I think they were low-income, probably something that bordered on the program like I went through--the home ownership program. These people 31:00probably at one point serviced one of those programs.

MJ: Okay.

SB: But I--coming on the tail end of it, where I could see their loans here so what's going on? Why aren't we collecting the money on these loans?

MJ: Was that a city program?

SB: It was a non-profit organization. The city did provide the funding for those furnaces and what have you. Different districts council I would have to communicate with would be providing the funding to those things. So I did have a little interaction with several of our council persons at the time.

MJ: And so when you were growing up, did they talk about redlining or the different situation, or did you just take for granted that the housing in the 32:00city was segregated?

SB: Honestly, I never took for granted that it was segregated. I just knew that certain areas you couldn't go to, because people--you didn't want to be there. You know what I'm saying? But like I said, once I became an adult, you see, I've been all over the city of Louisville. And I have not, I mean, I lived in the Iroquois area that was Douglas Park. Okay, the year that I was in there, what'd I do a year or two years maybe there?

That's when they first started having the refugees that were going into Americana at the time. I don't know if it's still called Americana over there, but see Douglas Park and Americana kind of sat right by each other, if you go down that little road. They were right really there by each other.

MJ: No, I think it's something Heritage Apartments, or something now. I actually live on Kenwood--live in Kenwood Hills. So that's right down the street from me.

SB: So I didn't have a problem getting into there. When I moved out to the Graymoor subdivision, which as you know, off Brownsboro Road, Hesher Lane, and all that Herr Lane and all that area near the Holiday Manor. It was a house I rented. I didn't have a problem with that. But you know, I was seeing a lot of diversity myself. Because my eyes are open. I'm looking who's coming in and out of the house.

So I was already seeing a lot of diversity when I was interchanging through these places. I've always lived in a diverse area once I moved out on my own, except for the one year that I lived in the West End in that apartment. The first apartment I ever had. But after that, everything was pretty much diverse, because I ended up in a house that was near the racetrack area. It was on--which street was I on--Montana, a street called Montana.

So I lived there for a year. And you know that area's diverse, it's black and white, I mean as far as anything else over there. At the time you may have seen an Asian or two. But once I left there, I think that's when I ended up in--no, when I left that house, where did I go after? That's when I ended up out here in Hikes Point, I ended up at Hikes Point, and it was pretty much--those particular apartments--I'm going to say they were primarily African American in those apartments over in there.

Because it was near where Goldsmith Lane is, all those apartments back up through there. Now further up the road, you had your white people and whoever else was in there. But so you can say it was diverse, but in that particular little cluster that I was in, it was African American primarily. (Excuse me) Once I left there like I said, I bought my house in Newburg. And Newburg was primarily African American.

I didn't see very many white folks or anything there when I lived in Newburg. I helped my mother and her best friend at the time. They used to serve on that Newburg Day Board and help plan the Newburg Day stuffs. It was primarily black folks. I didn't see any diversity during that time during that.

MJ: Did people in Newburg, did they kind of celebrate the history of the community? As an African American community?

SB: Yeah, back then they did. They were celebrating that. They were getting together, the gatherings were nice. People were out having a good time. It was a closeness. People knew each other. But like I said, after eight years, it just started falling off. I know that my mom's best friend passed away, and Mom didn't work on the board anymore. So I didn't either. Because they, it was my 36:00skills, secretary or administrative whatever, and I do a lot of things for them for that.

After that they just didn't do it anymore, and I don't see it--it has not been as--I'm going to say, as good as it was when we were doing it back then. Because I've been to a few of them since, and I'm like, "Wow." They don't have the things--all the different diverse things to do that we used to have. You had so many more vendors and stuff that participated. And this was, the last time I went was probably about two years ago, and it just wasn't the same. It was not. And I haven't been since.

MJ: So do you know your neighbors now in Fern Creek? The way you--

SB: I know who they are. I know who they are. As a matter of fact, the one that lives on the left from me, even though I know who they are, I don't interact all the time with them as, "How you doing" what have you. But the one that lives next door to me has family that's kind of related to my family. And they're white. (laughs) But their kids are some of my cousin's kids. (laughs)

The one that's on the other side of me, they're white. She teaches. I don't know what he does, but you know we from time to time have a conversation. I used to know the lady that lived across the street. She moved away. I think she got a big--it was a white woman. I used to speak to her. But it was mostly white around me, but prior to the white on my left side, no on my right side, there used to be some gentlemen, and they ended up moving.

And that's when the white got that house. But I know there's some more blacks on the street further down, but I don't go up and down the street just chatting with my neighbors. I wave, but other than that, it's not a closeness like say when I grew up in Parkland. Everybody knew everybody in Parkland. Olive Street, that's the street I grew up on, we all knew each other. We went to school together, we knew each other. It's not the kind of thing. It's not the same.

MJ: And when you were living in the South End, was it the Douglas Apartments?

SB: Uh-hm, Douglas Park at the time. I'm assuming they're still that. I don't know if they're still the same name.

MJ: What was the reaction when the refugees started settling in the community?

SB: I'm so easygoing and happy, I speak to everybody. I get along with everybody. I didn't have a real reaction. My kids look like a little bit of 39:00everything, you know what I'm saying. Because I know I'm mixed with everything. So it's no telling what'll come out of me and that's the way my kids look. I have a child that looks Cuban because the Cubans always confuse her with being one.

Tia, the one you met, Tia, they confused her with being one of the Vietnamese or Korean or whatever they were out there one time. They started coming up to her talking that, "No, I'm black." (laughs) She had to go through that. My other daughter, they look at her as Hispanic. But we're all African American, Indian, whatever. We know we've got all of that in us. But for the most part here locally (laughs) in the United States, we have that Choctaw Cherokee black.

As far as my white heritage, I don't know where it is, where it fits in at, who was white to make me, it had to be on my dad's side because that's where the redhead people are. My dad was a redhead man. I was a redhead female, it's 40:00mostly gray now, but I was a redhead. (laughs) My grandmama was a redhead so I know there's that there. And as far as what else is in there, I know it's a lot of everything. I did the 23 And Me, so I know I got everything.

MJ: Was your family originally from Kentucky?

SB: Originally, well no. Originally my mom and dad both come from Selma.

MJ: Okay.

SB: So Selma, Alabama. Yeah, and a lot of them--my dad's brothers and what, mom, my grandmother--they were some of the ones that were doing the marching on the Edmund Pettus and all that back then.

MJ: And how'd they end up coming to Kentucky?

SB: You know honestly I don't know. My mom was two years old when she came here. My dad, I don't know how old he was when he came here. My mom and my dad as far as meeting each other, they didn't meet each other until they got here. But they 41:00were both from Selma, Alabama. (laughs)

MJ: So do you know why you're grandparents decided to come to Kentucky?

SB: Honestly I do not. I know my grandfather worked for the railroad. It could have been that, because he worked for the L&N Railroad Company and that was good money what have you. He retired from that. It could have been that. But I can tell you too, my grandfather only had an eighth grade education. (laughs) But he was able to work at that railroad, retire, he used to own properties. He did all of that with an eighth grade education.

MJ: And was it all in the West End, the property?

SB: Yeah, he had properties, I know there was a place there, 16th and Broadway used to be a building there that he owned. So at some point it was sold off, probably after he died. He had houses. The house that he lived in on Olive 42:00Street, and then there was another house that he had on Olive Street. And then he had another house somewhere near that Sunset area near the Chickasaw Park area, whatever? I remember the house back there. And he may have had more that I didn't know of, but (inaudible 0:42:15.2) I knew of.

MJ: All right, well that's all the questions I had. Is there something that I didn't ask you about that you think is important or want to talk about?

SB: Can't think of anything offhand. (laughter) I probably gave you an earful. (laughs)

MJ: (laughs) Yeah, well thank you for your time. I know it's--

SB: You're welcome.

[End of interview][0:42:46.5]