Interview with Kenneth Stanley, May 12, 1977

CS Ok, let me begin with an introduction my name is Chuck Staiger and I’m talking today with Kenneth Stanley who is the editor of the Louisville Defender and today’s date is the twelfth of May 1977 and this interview is one of a series concerning black history in Louisville, Kentucky. I wonder if I can begin perhaps backing up and getting a biography of your Father, Frank Stanley, Sr. and the founding of the Louisville Defender.

KS The founding of the Louisville Defender was in April 1933, my Father was originally an English teacher at Central High school and was working on the paper in the capacity as a reporter on a part time basis in conjunction with job 1:00at Central High School.

CS Was it the Central High paper?

KS Correct. There was a Mr. Robert Abbott who was the owner of the Chicago Defender newspaper who ventured to Louisville to find some interested young men who would be willing to start and operate a paper here in Louisville called Louisville Defender which would be a sister publication to the Chicago Defender. My Father along with Mr. Frank Gray, Mr. J.T. Blackwell and about four or five other individuals here in Louisville began to open up and run and publish a once a week black weekly newspaper called the Louisville Defender the paper in these early years was printed in Chicago by the Chicago Defender and either trucked or sent back by railroad to Louisville where it was distributed the news and all 2:00the makeup was all Louisville things that were going on here in the Louisville area. My Father worked as a reporter for about three years at which time Abbott offered him a managerial position to come on the paper in a full time capacity. He worked in that position for two years at which time Mr. Abbott passed and was no longer affiliated with the Louisville Defender at which time my Father along with some of the initial people who were with him at the paper decided to take over the Louisville Defender and make it its ongoing entity within itself. We still maintain and even up to today have a sisterly relationship with the Chicago Defender which is presently run by Mr. John Sinstack who is the 3:00publisher and editor of the Chicago Defender but we are entirely and solely based and operated here in Louisville and all our complete operation takes place here in the Louisville area. At one time there were a total of four black weekly newspapers here in the Louisville area we were the only ones to survive a for several reasons; one being economics. I believe the flood wiped out one particular operation and I would say the other one due to some poor management failed so we were the surviving black newspaper here in Louisville. We are presently to my recollection the only black weekly newspaper in the state. We do 4:00have statewide circulation, we do have papers or agents over the states that handle the papers for us so we are able to reach out to the black Kentuckians outside of Louisville and provide a paper or news service for them so this was basically how my Father began to be at the initial beginnings of the Louisville Defender.

CS What, ah, was he a native Louisvillian?

KS No he was not he was born and raised in all places Chicago, Illinois but his Mother moved to Louisville and he moved to Louisville round about sort around a junior in high school so I imagine either fourteen, fifteen or sixteen years old. He then went to college at Atlanta University on a football scholarship, he graduated from Atlanta and worked for a couple of years at Central High School 5:00and we went and completed his Master’s in English in Cincinnati University in Cincinnati at which time he did return to Louisville to teach at Central High School.

CS When he went to Cincinnati was it the day lawn effect?

KS I believe it was during that time. I’m thinking about this was possibly middle ‘20’s or late ’20’s because the paper was started in 1933 so this would have to be I’d say ’28 or ’29 somewhere along in there.

CS Wow. What were his parent’s occupations?

KS My Mother, ah his Grandmother…ah, his Mother, my Grandmother Mrs. Helen Stanley she worked in a restaurant and she was in fact she also ran a colored 6:00hotel which was called Allen Hotel which was over at Twenty-sixth and Madison Street.

CS Here is Louisville?

KS Correct, here is Louisville and she was into the restaurant business. My Dad’s Father was a merchant over in Cicero, Illinois just outside of Chicago just a regular salesman and he met his Mother while she was visiting in Chicago some relatives and so forth and they got married and my Father grew up basically the young tender age in Chicago, Illinois and then moving back to Louisville.

CS {inaudible} What were some of the problems if you may recall in the beginning of the black paper here in Louisville, the Louisville Defender?

KS I think the initial problems first off were to secure adequate financial 7:00means to start the paper. If you’re looking at any kind of small operation you’re talking about money at that time that basically had to come from let’s say blacks that ware able to put some money aside I’m sure you couldn’t walk into the white banking institutions in that day in time and be able to get or obtain any sizable amount of money to start a black newspaper. Plus the nature of the newspaper at that time was one of great militancy it was a fighter in the best of terms so it wasn’t something the average white person would want to identify with and I’m sure that it was a great deal of tremendous amount of problems to secure adequate financing that’s I think the reason we were sort of like a sister paper to the Chicago Defender by having it printed up there and 8:00they would basically take care of the bookkeeping operations and the financial side of the paper and we would simply be here to gather and collect the news, shoot photographs and simply run a Louisville operation but it was had to be not being able to find or secure adequate financing at that time. I think the other problem would have been to possibly find adequate staff, black staff, who probably had no previous training in newspaper or journalism I think from talking with my Father back in those early days if he found somebody who was pretty good at being able to write stories and so forth, if he found a guy that had a camera that had some kind of abilities he would probably bring them on and do a lot of on the job training work with these individuals so that they could learn to adapt to being able to comply with the requirements and the necessities 9:00and the needs of a newspaper and being able to produce that kind of writing, those kinds of photographs for a newspaper during that time. You didn’t have blacks during that time graduating from journalism schools and so forth so there wasn’t’ a pool of talent out there you could reach out and grasp he simply had to find people who believed in what he was doing, who believed in what the paper stood for and what it was trying to do and sort of came in and joined forces with the belief they were doing something good for the community and doing something of necessity for the black community.

CS Did you mention that the paper took a militant stance, it was a fighter, ah, had a two prong question, in what manner through the editorials was that the way it happened?

KS Correct. Through our editorials in fact I remember my Father told me that he very violently attacked through his editorial pages a local Mayor at that time 10:00and the Mayor told him that he had forth-eight hours to get out of town.

CS What was the approximate date on that?

KS I would say this was probably the late ‘30’s or early ‘40’s and I recall that he told me what the Mayor’s name was and my Father had written this one particular editorial which was really tearing into him about either some either out right racism or some very, very injustices that were happening at that time and the Mayor had told him as a result of this particular editorial that he had forty-eight hours to leave Louisville and my Father said that he had to really decide then and there if he was going to be run out of town on a rail or whether he was going to stick by his guns and stay and he said that he went up and told the Mayor himself that Mayor you’re not going to run me out of the city of 11:00Louisville that I worked here all my life and I believe in what I’m doing and none of these statements are going to run me out but he also told me that he purchased a couple of guns and a rifle to protect himself at the same time and he was really armed there at the paper for his own protection and he said that this particular Mayor had issued this order down to him and he said for a long time they never would speak and finally he said about six months later they finally exchanged some kind of courtesy or something another so he assumed that he was maybe back on good graces or whatever but the paper was let’s say not that ah well liked by the white community because we were exposing and we were the watchdog and we were the fighter during that time during all the early, early struggles that were going on during that time.

CS Where there any reprisals from the white community? In what form?

KS Reprisals probably took place in the fact that two or three times we’d been bombed, I can recall…

CS Not just threats?

KS Not just threats but actually bombed. Sometimes some of our trucks have been burned up.

CS What are the dates does that range? When did it start until….

KS Ah, dates? I would say about five years ago one of our trucks right out here was burned up out here on the front parking lot and about ten years ago at our location over on Walnut Street one night a car came by and shot out about two or three of our front windows and my Father told me about twenty years ago when they were on the old building on Fifth Street some vandals, and he never really thought they were vandals, came by and burned up about an entire edition of our 13:00newspaper which was just about ready to be distributed and caught the back part of the building on fire that time and these kind of actually physical retaliations did come his way individually and things were you know done to the paper. I remember during the public accommodations demonstrations up on Forth Street which my brother and my Father were leading at that time--

CS In the ‘60’s?

KS Correct. A lot of the Forth Street advertisers or downtown advertisers that we had that we were picketing against sort of pulled their advertising from the newspaper to sort of stifle our life blood and so forth and I would say for about a year or two a lot of them did not return to advertising in the paper 14:00because it would be hard for them to advertise in your paper and look up and see you walking in the front door with picket signs and so forth so that was definitely a retaliation you know and there’s not a week that goes by that even today I was sitting up here, not today but about two weeks ago I was telling my staff I got this anonymous phone call and they said is this Kenneth Stanley and I said yes it is and they said I saw that article you ran in the newspaper in regards to the cross burnings out in Shively and they said you know you shouldn’t be running those kinds of articles and began to curse me out, they called me all kinds of names and so forth and then slammed the phone up and I could definitely tell it was a young Caucasian voice that was at the other end so I’d say still today and this is 1977 we still get those kinds of phone calls every other week or so, you know we will get them and so forth, the people on 15:00the staff have become accustomed to them and so forth and you just sort of live with it, you know this kind of thing and so forth but there were definite reprisals that you know in fact the one that was really aimed at our advertising almost put us out of business

CS In the ‘60’s?

KS Correct because it was just so crucial.

CS What ah, maybe since we’re talking about the ‘60’s I wanted to ask about that period of time. I saw some articles from the Times and Courier Journal I believe your Father was on one of the desegregation committees.

KS Correct.

CS and around ’61 or ’62 during Mayor Hob-elets--

KS Hoblitser, right [Hoblitzell]

CS Hoblister. [Hoblitzell]

KS Hoblister [Hoblitzell] I believe. I believe so. Correct. He was on several of those--

CS {inaudible} survive that time?

KS Ok-- I would say the ‘60’s were a very, very courageous time for the black community we were fighting for our rights and I believe Martin Luther King at 16:00that time was probably giving us a great amount of inspiration I think we maybe found a new unity among ourselves and we had definitely found a new direction we could go in to try to pull together for trying to achieve equality for the black race, I think that was a time when I look at other people who were involved in it and we sort of sit back and reminisce about that, that it was a time that you will never forget if you ever participated in any of the marches or if you ever went to any of the events down in the South such as going down to Selma or anything like that. Anybody that was involved in that can recall and very vividly the things that went on and the kind of feeling that existed in the black community and I recall that I had the opportunity to meet Martin Luther 17:00King on several occasions and he had that unique ability to really be able to ignite people and to bring into them a new sense of dedication that no previously black leader to my recollection had ever been able to do that in such masses and consequently he was able to get people to do things that maybe they had never done before consequently, sit ins, demonstrations, and all that finally began to finally unveil and this was the period that I think we were possibly wiling to lay our lives down on the line, we were wiling to go out there and risk being shot, we were willing to go out and going to jail and getting your head whopped by very, very vicious policemen at that time we were willing to take all risks needed to a try to get this thing straightened up 18:00because we were tired of living as second class citizens and feeling like we were being told we were first class citizens and having to pay all the second class citizenship along the way and pay all those dues all those many years and was really a time of great anxiety on our part but Dr. King was able to mobilize and instill and give us great sense of pride and great sense of direction to let us go on to greater heights and so forth and I sort of think of that period crystallize around here.

CS What were, in that movement in Louisville, if I can narrow it down to Louisville.

KS Right.

CS What were the goals that were being strived for and what were the strategies to reach those goals?

KS Right, Right. The goals that were being strived for were to open up all public facilities let’s say here in Louisville, eating facilities, theaters, 19:00clothing stores, basically anything downtown or here in the city that would be open to the general public because we felt like if we could go down and shop and try on cloths that hey we shouldn’t have to go into maybe a separate area to change cloths, we felt like if we can go into a restaurant and spend our money that we shouldn’t have to eat in a special section or get it to go out or whatever to take out and we felt like it was time now for us to be able to demand this I think the strategy at that time was to pull together blacks for the first time in a united effort to plan a strategy to go down and try to pull together and to pull together strategies to accomplish these objectives. Basically, what was being done was we were having group meetings, we were 20:00planning which group of people would go in front of which stores, we were planning to have people down on Fourth Street every day, all day. We were planning to set up schools and churches where we could meet and have mass rallies, we were planning to raise bail money for the kids who were going to be locked up and people that were going to be locked up, we were pulling together lawyers, the black lawyer community was pulling together and donating their times and services free of charge to go down and represent the kids, we also had some white lawyers who donated time and so forth free to go down and represent the kids. We were working very closely with the NAACP, the Urban League, the SCOC, all these kinds of organizations and trying to pull together one united force that would be for the first time together that we show the white community 21:00that we were together that would show that hey there are X number of black people here in the city of Louisville, if we all come together and if we all meet on Forth Street at such and such a time at such and such an hour that we can show a united force that has never been seen before and peaceful demonstrations you know try to show that brotherly love that we are willing to be here and spit up, spit on one cheek and at the same time turn the other side and be willing to sacrifice this for the fact that it’s going to make it better for our children for the fact that it’s going to make it better for the community and for the fact that it’s going to make it better for the white community because the desegregation was just as much their problem as it was ours. So what we were striving for was simply to eradicate all this and put all this behind us at least let us go into these places where if we don’t go into a place to spend our money to eat at least we want to know that we can go in there 22:00and you know if we want to go to a movie theater downtown don’t have us sitting in the balcony and the white people sitting on the first floor you know that those days are over and these were some of the things we were striving for.

CS The over riding thing though is following Martin Luther King’s a—

KS Correct, his strategies.

CS No violence.

KS Correct. This was basically the methods that were being used because I can recall him coming to Louisville and meeting with some of the ministers, Lyman T. Johnson, my Father, my brother, some of the people here at the paper, other people who were still here and he was passing on the way they had done it in other Southern cities and the way they were doing it in other places around the country and this was basically the strategy of the non-violence kind of approach to opening up these places and trying to change this very, very kind of bad 23:00disease that had been there for a number of years.

CS Even if the non-violent strategies required breaking of the law then you still went to jail and you accepted the consequences of going to jail.

KS Correct, Correct.

CS Do you find, I don’t know if this is a fair question, but do you find it kind of odd today that when we see the anti-busing demonstrations they almost don’t want to accept the consequences of going to jail.

KS Correct. It would seem like they would if they’re willing get out there and demonstrate that’s the price you do pay for having that privilege and if you abuse it or misuse it or so forth that they would be willing to be able to accept that because I can recall in the ‘60’s there were so many blacks in the jails that the jailhouse was full that they moved them over to it was either what they call now Louisville Gardens, used to be called the Armory I think, 24:00some of us were locked up there for holding purposes and so forth and the strategy was to try to fill the jail as much as possible, the physical structure and which would in a sense clog up the Courts and clog up the entire judicial system and keeping the bail bondsmen hopping and so forth and things like this and when you look at that time and this time and you look at the anti-busing demonstrators you have to say they should have learned from our experience in terms of what we did and the prices we had to pay this would also be the same thing for them.

CS I’m interested because I believe in my conversation with Vincent Porter he mentioned that the parents that kept their kids home and from going to school are the lawyers tried to fight it and if they truly believed in their convictions should have gone I’m keeping my kid out of jail, lock me up with my 25:00payments and that kind of thing. Not enough white parents did that..

KS True.

CS Therefore you begin to question their resolve. That’s a comment ..{inaudible}. Getting back to your Father, there was an article in the Chicago Defender after his death noting his column being frank about people, places and problems..

KS Correct.

CS Indicated that it took a theme, that racism was not insoluble, is that an accurate description of that column and philosophy?

KS I believe so, I think that pretty well typifies the kind of attitude he had and how he went about approaching that column every week. I believe that column that he wrote, one close to either ten or fifteen awards over the twenty or 26:00thirty years that he wrote the column, either through Kentucky Press Association Awards, NNPA Awards and I even think a couple of times the Courier Journal gave him a citation one time for that column that he would write and this was his philosophy and I think that typifies the kind of idea and philosophical thought that he had when he would approach that column and so forth.

CS Is that still true today?

KS I think so.

CS Did the newspaper take that stance?

KS Correct.

CS Really?

KS Right, and I think it is still applicable we might see need to change it further down the line but I think at this time it is suiting and proper that we think within that framework.

CS In that same article, they had mentioned that the Louisville Defender and 27:00your Father tried to render a failing of the black press which was its inability to analyze the motivations that led to antisocial acts, is that, I’m not quite sure I understand that, I don’t know if you can comment.

KS That sort of puzzles me a little bit too. I know each black newspaper depending on local would have a different slant in terms of how they view their role. A black newspaper in Meridian, Mississippi would probably tell a different story in terms of how they view what they have to do. A black newspaper in Los Angeles, California would probably see it from a different kind of perspective you know, you have approximately one hundred and ninety five black newspapers 29:0028:00around the country and every one has to basically adhere to how they see their local problems and how they can view their role within their own local and can be best achieved of how they envision their newspaper functioning in that given city. Dad often used to think that Louisville was not a typical Southern city because of the fact that Indiana is right here and there area lot of Northern kind of influences that do fluctuate into Louisville. I know sometimes when I travel and people become aware of where actually the city is they think it is much more Southern that they actually would until they have been here, so he used to think that the white persons here in Louisville had more of a kind of Northern kind of thinking than they did a Southern kind of thinking you know and I think that is the reason you do find a large amount of white liberals here in the city of Louisville that’s because of basically that kind of thinking in that community and it has been evident through the years and that has existed here and he used to identify with them and pick out some of the people he thought were people he could talk with and deal with and many friends in the white community that he worked with through the years and he might battle with them on a given issue and so forth and take different opinions and very, very harsh opinions sometimes of some of the things that they did but at the same time he still had a lot of friends out there who were on the other side of the fence you know.

CS Does the paper, or did the paper try to find out what motivated people to a …

KS I think my Father did in his own kind of way. He was always a very, very 30:00inquiring kind of guy looking at the social structure and how it worked and many times why it worked in such unique kinds of ways. My Father also was a strong believer that there was a certain amount of good in the white community and if you could sometimes tap those few, even though they might be few in number, that they sometimes can spread out and bring in new people into their groupings and so forth and he was often amazed in terms of how he was able to find some friends right here in Louisville in the white community that he felt like he could be aligned with and feel like he had a certain amount of camaraderie between the two of them and worked together with them and through the years I 31:00would say he built up a large contingent of these white associates that he could call on at the drop of a hat to come to his aide or to assist him in program or work for the given good or a particular cause or something like this and he really cherished those and took a great deal of pride in the fact that he was able to have those kinds of friends.

CS Before I continue, let me flip over to the other side, I’m about to run out..

KS Oh, good enough.

CS Ok, we’re over on side two now and continuing I wonder if perhaps I could get a little about you’re background

KS Ok.

CS I know that we mentioned it a little bit already but …

KS Ok. I grew up in the newspaper business, as did my brother.

CS You were born in Louisville?

KS Correct, born in Louisville. Both my brother and I started out as newspaper 32:00carriers for the paper at very, very early age and I remember then my Father bringing me into the paper as a janitor so I can always say I started at the very, very bottom and worked myself up. I always worked at the paper during junior high school and high school.

CS Where did you attend school?

KS Where did, ok. I attended Male High School which was at that time with school desegregation in 1954 and I graduated in 1960 so it was I cam right after the school desegregation and Male at that time was a very, very good school, had some very, very good instructors and it was one of the better high schools I believe here in Louisville so I think I got a fairly good education at that particular high school all during this time I was working at the paper either 33:00afternoons, Saturdays or during the summertime and so fourth. Dad basically just continued to bring me up through all the phases, I worked as a reported for a while, worked as a photographer for a while, worked as an advertising salesman for a period of time, worked out in the state in circulation going from town to town building up newsboys and so forth and basically assisted him for some period of time then finally my brother was basically working in similar kinds of capacities but he’s six years older than I am so he was still very, very much involved in the paper. Dad felt the best training for any person who was serious about being involved in the newspaper was to actually work at it and get actually that kind of on the job experience which is different from the textbook 34:00kind of experience and so forth.

CS Was this always your ambition to work in a paper?

KS Correct. Right, I had always had it for a long time and it was just a matter of trying to decide what Dad’s final ambitions were going to be at one time he was considered to be President of Kentucky State University so both my brother and I thought he might be leaving the paper so if he was I figured that would probably be maybe a four to eight year kind of appointment and he was at one time considered right before they hired Dr. Hill and right after Mr. Atwood was the President he was being considered but that didn’t come about so he stayed at the paper and both my brother and myself we were still here working at the newspaper. It was really an invaluable experience because it’s a unique kind of 35:00endeavor and it requires a certain amount of commitment and it requires a great degree of commitment to what we’re all about because as Dad often used to say there are a lot easier jobs and there are a lot of jobs that pay more money but if you believe in trying to be of service to your people, if you believe in trying to help humanity and doing something for the overall good of society then the newspaper is a vehicle that allows you to do this. Dad had so many things going inside and outside of the paper for two consecutive times he was president of his fraternity which required him to travel around a great deal, for thee consecutive times he was president of the National Newspaper Publishers Association so he was traveling around the country making speeches and so forth, 36:00two times he went to Europe to help with the desegregation of the Armed Forces being sent over by Harry. S. Truman, many times he would receive appointments such as this that would take him out of the country or taking him out of this seat for long periods of time so between my brother and myself either if wherever we were at that particular phase the one or the other would sort of hold down the reins during that time that he would be out and he always felt like that if these kinds of offers came his way that he would simply be adding to the many things that he had already done and he would be growing and adding a certain amount of prestige to himself and to the paper at the same time plus he was a very, very highly involved man in many, many organizations, many, many 37:00civic kinds of organizations, or many, many boards, involved in many, many charitable kinds of organizations and so forth so he was the guy who was, hate using the word a workaholic but he definitely one you know so but we grew up under him and we got accustomed to his way of doing things so you sort of, not necessarily patterning yourself after his methods but you sort of have learned from the way he has been able to bring it through.

CS Did you ever go to any college or journalism school or did you…..?

KS No, I went to a school for printing for one summer which was taking learning how to run line a type machines and running some of the presses we have here one summer. I also finally attended a business school for a while, went to some 38:00interns and seminars during the summer at one time my Father had a heart attack in approximately about 1969 and it sort of locked me in because at that time I had to realize that his health was starting to fail him a little bit and I had to sort of stay sort of close although he was the kind of guy that wouldn’t admit it and he was very, very eager to say well you know, hey this happened and I have to live with it and so forth but between my brother and I we were sort of backing him up and you know steering the ship to at the same time we were sort of trying to stay as close to him as possible.

CS I don’t know if you want to discuss this or not, but I notice there was a 39:00break with you and your brother

KS Correct

CS on the Defender I wondered if you’d want to comment anything about that?

KS Right. Ok. Sure. This was, let’s see, about a year and a half ago, a let’s see Dad died in 1974, October of ’74, right. My Father passed in October of ’74 at our expo which is a four day black exposition that we have every year down at Convention Center. At that time family was in a great deal of emotional distress, we were, had never experienced this kind of sorrow across the family and it was an unfortunate kind of situation that my brother felt like he had 40:00some differences of opinion in terms of let’s say how maybe he wanted the paper to go after the passing of my Father and he began to talk to us in regards to let himself be the controller or the one person to run the paper, at that time it was Vivian Stanley, due to the fact that she was my Father’s wife automatically became the majority stockholder in the operation and both my brother and I had minority shares so our voices were really still in the minority and Mrs. Stanley had the majority of the stock so she had the controlling voice and the controlling interest, she determined at that time that 41:00after about two or three months of really just running the paper as if Dad had gone on vacation or something to give a one year trial to my brother and myself where she appointed us both as co-publishers and editors dividing responsibilities, dividing duties, areas that we would control, dividing various kinds of aspects of the paper who would be covering this particular area and who would be handling that. We worked under this setup for I’d say approximately six months and my brother felt that upon evidence that still to this day that I have never been able to accurately pinpoint that Mrs. Vivian Stanley was going to sell her stock to an outside buyer and this particular person that he thought 42:00was going to buy stock in the paper was a Mr. John Sinstack of the Chicago Defender who still owns ten shares of stock in the paper and my brother came to me with what he thought was what he believed to be true that he had envisioned Mrs. Stanley selling the paper and that it would be detrimental to sell the paper to an outside paper, they wouldn’t have the interest of the local ownership that they wouldn’t have the interest of the {inaudible} after so many years of being here to all of the sudden turn it over and I tried to convey to my brother that I didn’t envision Mrs. Stanley doing this and that she hadn’t made any overtures to me that this was actually going to happen so he obtained legal council and filed two suites. The first suit was to question the validity 43:00of my Father’s will in terms of how the estate was set aside and the second suit was to question the amounts of shares of stock that were in the paper, who the true owners of the stock were and to simply try to put a stalemate or a halt to any possible buying actions that he thought were taking place and he filed the suit against Mrs. Stanley and myself and we were in court for about oh about a year and a half almost two years going back, appeals and finally going before the Kentucky State Courts and filing their appeals and he lost both suits and 44:00the will still stays in tack and the stock in the paper still stays in tack and evidently what he believed to be Mr. John Sinstack’s attempt to take over the paper never did come to pass so for the last year he resigned from the paper to take a position with state government with Julian Carroll in the Kentucky Department of Justice and Mrs. Stanley about a month ago moved back to her native Memphis, Tennessee so I am the publisher, editor and running the paper on a day to day basis and it was simply just a difference of opinion. I hated to see it transpire but I guess those, just the way it goes.

CS Does she still control the majority of the stock?

KS Yes, she is Chairman of the board and majority stockholder in the corporation.

CS If I could change, shift gears here, what do you consider the most significant event in the desegregation of Louisville?

KS I would probably have to say the public accommodations demonstrations of the ‘60’s also the open housing demonstrations or the late ‘60’s. I think those two events to my recollection would stand out in front. The signing of the public accommodations bill.

CS Was that a state or…

KS Correct, that was a state bill that was signed. Dr. Martin, Reverend Martin 46:00Luther King’s brother, A. D. King, who was pastor at Zion Baptist Church here for about three years, the one who died in the swimming pool if you might recall. He didn’t pass here but I think he was in Memphis, was one of the signers and one of the original people who worked to pull that those particular bills I think getting certain key legislation like that on the books provided us with the legal and political clout to be able to have something behind you for a chance and so forth. I think those two or three stand out in my mind as being you know key maybe some person older might look back a little further

CS {inaudible}.

KS Correct, or something like that but I think in my generation let’s say you know thirties, thirty year old person that would probably be the things that I can relive in my own mind as being very, very vivid and vital you know.

CS Who would you consider a….as you were growing up and today to be some of the most influential black leaders in the community?

KS Here is Louisville?

CS Here in Louisville.

KS Ok. Lyman T. Johnson definitely, Reverend C. Eubank Tucker who passed and was Neville Tucker’s Father he would definitely be one, my Father, Frank Stanley, Sr. also there was a former attorney here, attorney Charlie Anderson who was the black first to be in the Kentucky House of Representatives I believe who was very, very key influential guy really before his time, very suave, good talker, a lawyer, extremely intelligent…

CS Is there someone that we might be able to contact about him, perhaps include him in this project?

KS I would say Lyman T. Johnson probably would be able to recall they used to call him Charlie Anderson for short, attorney Charles Anderson. I would say also Meyzeek who they named Meyzeek Junior High School after a very, very civic minded individual, very committed to human rights and civil rights issues fights all the way through beginning to end.

CS He’s no longer living?

KS No longer living, correct.

CS What was his position?

KS I believe he was in the school system, correct, I think he was principal of either Central High School for a while and either finally what they call Jackson Junior High School for a while. He passed, I never met him but I’ve heard many people talk about him and so forth in regards to the things that he has done. 49:00Ah, let’s see, I mentioned Lyman, I mentioned Charlie Anderson, I mentioned Reverenced Tucker, I mentioned my Father--those five or six people just off the top of my head …

CS I should note for the tape that I’m putting you on the spot here and we don’t want to leave anybody out or anybody that we offended if they’re listening to this tape later on.

KS That’s alright, that’s alright. Oh no, that’s perfectly fine.

CS Have you seen, I know a normally the white community will ask who’s the black leader

KS Correct, correct.

CS and that’s kind of a, there’s no answer to that, that’s like asking who’s the white leader, I mean that would be, it would be all of these people.

KS I think so, I think today there is a question first of all is there really a leader needed you know in the sense as we used to have a Martin Luther King or something like that. People, I’ve also heard the theory projected that the 50:00people are the leaders you know and the masses of people are the leaders and in a sense rather than let the people lead and so forth take that position of leadership. At the same time though some people feel like if you identify black leaders that they become identifiable figures and that the white community can take pot shots at them from time to time, sort of destroy or tamper with their leadership for one reason or another and I’ve heard this expresses but I think there’s a different feeling now I believe and it’s more like a power to the people and more power to the masses and the numbers of folks rather than them 51:00trying to pick up ten or fifteen or twenty or thirty so called leaders. There are people here who are let’s say in leadership kinds of capacity which maybe either the nature of their position or the nature of what they do might put them in a leadership kind of capacity, myself being the publisher and editor of the only black newspaper would have to put me into a leadership kind of role. Other folks, other people who might be in not necessarily similar kinds of positions, but similar kinds of leadership positions might be looked upon as being in a leadership kind of role but I think there is, I don’t think we will ever see one person held high and above as a Martin Luther King, as a Malcolm X, as a Elijah Mohammad, these kinds of folks I just don’t believe that those kind of 52:00individuals will come back that was a thing gone and we won’t see it again but the people profited by the fact that they did come this way so we are much more, we are not as naive as we used to be we’re much more intelligent now, you know you can’t pull the wool over our eyes as much as you used to, we’re going to ask questions why and we want answers and you know we’re not as gullible as we used to be you know and so and it took those kinds of people to come by and to be able to really you know light us all up and be able to get a message across so I don’t think you’ll any leader held way out there in front you’ll see certain people who represent certain kinds of things and who are in certain kinds of positions of leadership and you know and that’s the way I see it.

CS I’ve got a kind of a question to get your reaction to, this is a passage taken from a book From Slavery to Freedom and it stated “during the years of the negro revolution [which is in the 1960’s it’s referring to] it was widely assumed that the vigorous thrust for equality had begun to close the economic gap between negros and whites the assumption was entirely erroneous caused in part by the opening of a few widely publicized opportunities that can best be described as massive {inaudible} economic differences failed to increase and in 1963 the unemployment rate of negros was one hundred and fourteen percent higher than whites” in the 1960’s and extending into the 1970’s has there been any progress in closing the economic gap between blacks and whites?

KS Yes there has, but only marginal but there’s still a tremendous gap that is 54:00still there it still has to be closed even further. I saw a recent survey I believe it was either 1975 or ’76 that said that the average median income of the average black family and the average median income of the average white family was around about three thousand dollars difference for a family of four but see that has certain fallacies built in first of all there are very, very few black families of four we usually have anywhere from five to six in the average black family but it is true today you have more two heads of the household in black families both working you know man and wife now have good jobs and a lot of time where many, many times before the wife was going to do domestic work that is a thing of the past and we are now either out at GE or out 55:00at Ford {blank space in tape} or Harvester or someplace else with some kind of job which is paying us more than the domestic work is due to the fact of recent, not recent but laws that were passed you now have more blacks in better kinds of skills they’re now the unions have opened up wherever he is working he is now making more money than he ever made before in his history so we are in a sense better off economically than we have been before but there still is a tremendous gap there and the unemployment figures still are staggering there are more blacks out of work I believe there are either three to four times I think the unemployment black teenager ratio is somewhere close to around forty percent I think from the latest figures that I’ve heard. You still have a tremendous amount of black women who are not employed and so forth so the unemployment 56:00picture is not nearly as pretty as it is on the white side of the fence so you know figures sometimes can be very, very misleading if you aren’t able to interpret them and really see and know what’s going on because they just simply sit back and take a survey and throw out some figures and say here are the results of the survey which are not accurate really at all.

CS What do you think should be done to overcome this problem? Especially teenage unemployment?

KS Teenage unemployment I think is probably going to take some Federal programs either coming out of the Carter Administration to set aside either to one of two ways, one to try to urge industry to open up or create more jobs, two to either have the Federal Government create jobs either in job corps camps, or summer kinds of employment, recreational kinds of programs, going to the parks, going 57:00to the state parks, working on highway crews, any kind of things such as this that could sap up some of that talent that is out there. Blacks also have a problem, blacks that are unskilled and don’t have the skills to be able to go out and first of all obtain a job and second of all be able to stay on that job and compete so they can come up for raises so they can get the benefits and so forth so the main thing is there has to be creation of jobs coming from the Federal level pouring down to the state level down to the local level that will then become available to black unemployed youth specifically set aside for minorities in the country who need these kinds of jobs available to them and at the same time programs set up to train the untrainable element in our community 58:00who still aren’t able to go out and get a job at GE or International Harverster because of the fact that his skills are not up to where they should be with the white person who might walk in and ask for that same job you see so these are some of the things I see.

CS Are there any differences you can see in Louisville when you were growing up for the youth and today perhaps relating to the education they’re getting and the attitude of the people?

KS Ok. I think the education is probably I believe there is better education being offered. I think the schools are better now than they were when I was coming going through school but I don’t think that the attitude or the, the, environment for learning is there as much as it used to be when I was there I think my parents or my generation of parents they really sat down on us if we 59:00didn’t do our homework you know and they gave the authority to the teachers to knock us in the head if we didn’t do our work and if you came in with bad grades at least in my house you would hear about it and C’s and D’s weren’t tolerated and you really had to strive hard and it wasn’t anything well, I tried or something like this and maybe I think we were more orientated to success role models but then the later generations are but I think that’s sort of bad because of I think some of the younger parents are not striving enough to first of all be good examples themselves to set the example for the younger kids so if the kid is growing up and he sees his Father getting into books or going to the library or buying books and sitting down and reading and sees his Mother doing this it becomes a habit you know but just the other day a twelfth grade student 60:00walked in to fill out an application for a job here and I read his application and he made three spelling errors in a very, very simple basic application and I said son, do you realize you made these spelling errors on your application? He said, oh, I did, I really wasn’t sure about that but I said did you know that and he said well I soft of felt like I might have missed two or three of the words there and so forth you know and I can remember a time when I guess I’m from that old traditional kind of education that they’re talking about now you know the teachers would sit down and work with you and your parents would sit down and work with you and you might have problems spelling but I be dog gone if you’d get to the twelfth grade and you still were having these kinds of problems and they would put you back and I can recall several of my friends who couldn’t pass a course here or pass a course there who were sent back another year and repeated that year and many times saved them and brought up their deficiencies 61:00that they had you now but I just don’t feel that same kind of educational and that, that excellence drive that used to be there that my generation came up in and it just doesn’t seem to be there in the younger generation.

CS Do you have any idea what might be causing that?

KS Well, I think maybe it might be a just a maybe looser morals now maybe so than when I was growing up or maybe a more relaxed attitude towards things and so forth maybe not as great an emphasis on not being the best just keep up with the herd you know these kinds of things. I would hate to say dope and drugs have had something to do with it I really don’t think so I think it’s just a basically a relaxing of that kind of educational posture that people had for such a long time cause I can remember the first time I met Martin Luther King it 62:00was like I think I was either twelve, thirteen or fourteen and I was just taken aback by that man and he remained a role model in my mind for many, many years and you know it gave me that extra enthusiasm, that extra spunk that extra drive to try to succeed so I just don’t see that today from the younger generation you know I think the white community is experiencing some of this too you know even though you can still get kids in Harvard, MIT and all these very, very fine schools and so forth you know you still have a lot of kids even on the white side that just don’t you know look at Woodstock and so forth and that kind of experience and so forth that the white community went through I think you know it’s over on that side to if you just point out little pockets….{tape ended}

CS Ok, we’re beginning on side three with Mr. Stanley and I wanted to ask you 63:00what you thought what you would consider some of the most important goals for blacks in Louisville and in future and perhaps for the Louisville Defender.

KS I think the most important goal for blacks here in Louisville would be to realize their political power, to be able to enter into the political arena in full force, to maybe be able to realize a black Mayor here in the city of Louisville, to maybe realize six to seven black aldermen sitting up there in the Aldermanic Chambers, to be able to realize blacks in every political aspect here 64:00in Louisville and Jefferson County. The reason why this seems to be number one upper most in my mind is that most everything now has sort of shifted to the political area. Everything is involved in it--jobs, any kinds of programs coming through city administration are looked at in terms of who is in power to say where they go, who’s going to get X number of dollars for this program, which part of the city is going to be fixed up, are they going to spend it up on the other side Fourth Street or are they going to go down in the West End? From talking to people in the street, my associates, and so forth, everything now has shifted to the political spectrum and I think today that we could realize a black Mayor here in the city of Louisville--blacks will finally be in a 65:00tremendous position to yield to the man and to get, for the first time, the kind of things that come about when you have a guy sitting in that office who is of your own who is from your own community who understands what you’re all about, who understands what your problems are and so forth. A lot of politicians in the past have been able to speak to the fact that they were aware of the black problem but when the guy gets in it’s a different story than when he’s out there running and what he does while he’s in depends on the constituents he has out there in the community. Is he going to spend money in old town or is he going to put it in the West end? Is he going to spend money out in the Central Park area or is he going to put it in the West End? So, we believe, and I think I’ve I guess before a broad spectrum of people the political arena the power of the 66:00black vote with close to thirty-five thousand black registered voters in the West end, we can raise that up somewhere in the neighborhood of forty-five to fifty thousand. There are approximately one hundred and five thousand blacks here in greater metropolitan Louisville about eighty-five to ninety thousand living here in let’s say inner city of Louisville so we can reach that voting power of anywhere from forty to forty-five thousand registered voters. We are very fortunate here in the state of Kentucky that we can vote at eighteen which is an additional advantage that a lot of other states don’t have and it’s all around that voting booth and that ballot and the power in the political arena is what I think the thing that blacks today are trying to address themselves to than ever before.

CS There, this is kind of a difficult question to consider on, there has been 67:00two attempts in the past that have failed to consolidate Louisville and Jefferson County’s government….

KS Correct.

CS There’s many different ways you can consolidate a city and a county, do you think an effort to do that would dilute the political power of the black community?

KS It definitely would. Correct, definitely so, true. So that means that we have either got to get it this time or the next time or the time after that coming around otherwise by the time they are able--

CS A black mayor.

KS Correct. By the time it finally comes to the merger of the city and county government --

CS You think there will be eventually

KS Eventually, correct. I would say maybe the next four or five years. If Todd and Harvey could have stopped fighting long enough to sit down and map it out for the betterment of the people rather than who was going to be in charge of 68:00who and who was going to be in charge of who and who was going to get the biggest slice of the pie. It probably would have come down during this present administration but now that Harvey is going out and is sort of a lame duck kind of a mayor and Todd is going up for re-election and more than likely will probably get it I’m sure and I don’t think that is really on that agenda I believe they are just sort of paying lip service now at this point without really doing some constructive work at it. It would provide much better government for everybody here in the county. I mean the West end as just as well as anybody else {blank space on tape} there is no reason why services can’t be lapped why sanitation can’t call come under one department, why police can’t come under all one department, why administration cant’ come under all one department, you know hey, the same garbage trucks that go to the East End can just as well come down here to the West End and so forth. The mechanics of it, 69:00the sensibility of it and the logistics of it are really there it’s just a political ball at this point and each one is sort of using it to build up points in terms of the eyes of the voters and so forth and this kind of thing. And, I do see it coming within the next three, to four to five years. I think blacks are looking at it too as saying well you know we have a black mayor we have a black lady who is running for mayor this time around and if she doesn’t do it then the next time around if we haven’t got it together by then were probably going to loose out but the only thing we can do is that if we do loose out at the top slot then let’s make sure that the second, and third and fourth and fifth spots have some key blacks sitting in there to at least be in on the major decision makings and to be able to stand up and say hey this is not good for my 70:00constituency this is not good for the people in the West End, to be able to be there when the decisions go down rather than not being there having them go down without any thought given to these hundred thousand black people here rather than just that lip service and so forth.

CS Do you, you don’t fear consolidation as taking the political power away from the black community?

KS It’s going to lessen our power but I think it won’t do us any good to fear it. I believe just as the sun comes up that it’s almost like an emblem and it’s just a matter of time. And, as I said before I think if Harvey and Todd had a more workable kind of relationship they probably would have got it much more implemented in and much further into the planning stages.

CS I got the impression that Mrs. Marsh is running for Mayor and was kind of against any kind of consolidation for that reason?

KS Well, by us putting her out there, we definitely want her to win. And, if she 71:00doesn’t win we want her to make as good a showing as possible so that it does say that we feel like we have a viable candidate; that we do feel like this lady can speak up for us, can represent our interest and can do the job. If we don’t put a black candidate up there then the white community will say well hey you all haven’t even offered anybody up for this particular position. This is the second time that we’ve had a person run for it, I don’t know if you remember Reverend Leo Lesser that ran for the Mayor’s slot about three or four years ago--

CS I was out of town then.

KS Unfortunately he’s passed about a year after that but he also ran and that time I think he took in around six thousand to seven thousand votes that he got and I think Mrs. Morris will do better than that, first of all she’s been an Alderman for a while, she’s better known in the community, she’s more involved and so forth. I think she’ll have a better showing than the Reverend did. So, 72:00it’s important that we are able to offer up candidates for those kinds of positions because if you’re not visibly there for the individual for that kind of slot then they will simply say well hey we didn’t see you come up with anybody to run for Mayor and we didn’t see you come up with anybody to run for County Judge and so important things like this. We believe in the black community that we have people that are able to handle those kinds of positions you know. Woodford Porter at one time was thought about being a person to run for Mayor, there was some thought about running Benjamin Shobe, who is now one of the judges here in town for Mayor that he had enough not only black support but also had enough white support to be able to go on enough votes and so forth and this kind of thing. The black candidates have suffered from not being able 73:00to get enough capital to go into their treasury to mount a sufficient organizational campaign against all the rest of the candidates. We just haven’t been able to come up with enough money in our own community to put behind one individual candidate to go out there to speak to them. Plus, basically that has been the problem of not only Mrs. Marsh but of the other guy that ran for Mayor about four years ago-- he’s well known in the black community but not really that well known in the white community so he came up with I’d say basically those seven thousand votes he got probably were seventy to eighty percent black and about twenty percent white votes and so forth but you know you just have to keep pushing.

CS It’s interesting to me that you would not be totally against any type of consolidation for this city, I, one argument against it is the black community 74:00would loose out on that attempt.

KS That’s true, correct.

CS But you still think if you can have a viable political force within the city then they will look out of the interest during merger?

KS That’s true.

CS Ok, very interesting. Changing gears again, how serious to do view the white backlash problems in Louisville with regards to education and job opportunities for blacks or do you consider--

KS I think it’s there, I think it’s becoming more subtle. I think you’re still going to find it though. I think the blacks are not going to get those top kinds of positions we are still going to be second and third down the line we’re going the top posts are going to be evasive to us for one reason or another we are not going to not be able to get those kinds of positions that are coming that are 75:00available. It is probably, I think the black, that is a part of it and in addition to that I think that the educational process that has been going on that the white community is upset because first of all desegregation, second of all because of school busing, that has kind of infuriated them to some degree so any time they can stop us of put a hold on us or channel us into a different kind of direction then they will take that opportunity to do it. They may not have to run down here on Dixie Highway and protest with the rest of the protestors. I remember one time a good white friend of mine during the demonstrations which we covered that the people up in the Jefferson, up in the East End in the Highlands and out in Crescent Hill and so forth would love to be 76:00down here on Dixie Highway with the rest of them, but for two reasons: number one they couldn’t take the risk to be seen; and, secondly they didn’t want some kind of involvement coming down on them in their jobs and so forth; and, thirdly they had enough money to sustain the social changes much better. They could send their kids out to the-- many schools and so forth and they could withstand and so forth. They could hire the tutors and so forth. They can enroll them into--I understand Catholic Schools enrollment has almost doubled and so forth you know so all the sudden everybody becomes a Catholic, right so you know they all the sudden start going to Catholic schools and so forth. So and I think this lady, that statement sort of, sort of what was on their minds up there that really they were against it and had probably just has much bitter feelings toward it as 77:00the guy out in South Louisville, the guy out here in Shively and so forth who was willing to walk out on Dixie Highway with his beer can in one hand and his stick in the other and say hey I don’t want this you aren’t going to do this to my kids and I’m not going to take this you know.

CS I heard a comment more than once of an irate parent who was a Mother saying that we worked hard to move out of the West End, a white parent, and we got to get our kids into a better community and better schools and now they’re sending them back, how would you react to that statement?

KS Yeah, I’ve known some white families that have gone through that kind of experience moving in the West End all the time, all of my life there were a lot of white families who had invested tremendous amounts of money into their homes in the West End and they simply felt like the property values were going down 78:00and the money they had invested there they wouldn’t be able to recoup and so in a sense of a flight out they bought out and at the same time probably leaving homes in the West End because of the location that if they purchased that same home in the East End it’s probably going to cost fifteen to eighteen thousand more. In other words a thirty thousand home down in the West End is probably going to run you forty five or something like that in the East End depending on where you are. But, there’s a difference once you come across this side of Eighteenth Street. So, a lot of good homes were left in the West End that blacks could move into take over, renovate and fix up to their style that they like, they were old but you know they still could go along with that. But now you know you see your kids being bussed back to these schools they left from so it’s like 79:00a double kind of a blow there on them because they were leaving probably for that to get to the better schools to get to the T.J. to get to the Atherton, to all these kinds of schools. So now their kid has to go to Shawnee and he has to come back in here to Central and so forth which is not really to their liking what so ever so I can understand their anxiety, frustration behind that kind of thing because the most precious thing you have is your kid and so people are willing to put their lives on the line for their children and so forth it’s just a sad kind of commentary really.

CS There’s a couple implications that are involved in these statements, one that the West End schools are not as good--

KS Correct

CS For whatever reasons {inaudible} all I can think of is that money is really not being pumped into them and there is some kind of discrimination along the line, I don’t know if that’s true or not you may want to--

KS Well, basically, they were--

CS Has the school board neglected the West End schools?

KS I think the West End schools were neglected by the former Louisville school board for several reasons, one the Louisville school board was a basically financial depleted kind of-- that’s the reason they had to merge basically because--

CS The tax base had not--

KS Right, the tax base had depleted to that point. At one time they used to be a shining example of educational institutions in the city and people could really look forward to them to sending their kids there to get a good education. As I recall myself, I went to Male it had the best of facilities, the best of teachers a very, very kind of harmonious kind of relationship with the students and so forth and this was round about the ‘60’s, but as your money base begins to exit from the West End and move to the other side--as you see sooner or later you’re going to have to merge with Jefferson County--as your teachers begin to 81:00fluctuate from the bad schools to the good schools as they would move out there and purchase their homes and live in apartments and so forth then you know the better quality because of where they are, who’s teaching them and the money available is on the outside of the city and the city schools simply are left to deal with their problems within the inner city--

CS That’s when the city and county were separate.

KS Correct right so you know the city also knew for a long time that they were going to have to merge with the county. So like city and county governments they know they got to do is sooner or later. So the [Louisville] school board knew that the next four, five or six years that they were finally going to have to merge that they had done everything they could do to salvage that kind of operation. But, the only thing that could happen would be to merge in some kind of way where the staff, administrations, pupils, schools, would get some kind of 82:00equal consideration from Jefferson County or either the government was going to make Jefferson County take over the Louisville schools since they was going out of operation. And, if the Jefferson County assembly would have taken over we would have had less parity and less ground to stand on and less things to deal with point by point so by merging it was more a work out kind of merger, both parties were more represented you know when they sat down and said well how many administrations from the old city schools are going to be carried over into the Jefferson County. And, for about six months or two there you had two supervisors of buildings, you had two supervisors of grounds, you had two supervisors of health care, you had two supervisors of teacher recruitment, personnel directors and so you had double kinds of people into position and they if that actual 83:00merger hadn’t happened they wouldn’t have done that they just would say well the Jefferson County people stay here and you come in as assistants or number two assistants or whatever or we’ll move you over here to take care of picnic baskets or something like that you know so it was inevitable and a it was sort of a sad situation that it had to exist and a lot of people were involved in it and a lot of people’s careers were tied into it. Dr. Walker was able to bail himself out. I think he’s out in Pasadena, California or something, San Bernardino or something like that. He was able to get himself out but some people who’d been teaching twenty or thirty years and you know really had a lot of years built up into it were not treated as fairly as like some of the other people would have been.

CS In addition to that, that kind of statement going back to that lady and you mentioned property values the other questions that’s raised you know the 84:00property values going down that brings up the question of redlining that has been brought to point today in Chicago and Louisville it’s kind of a covert thing that has your paper uncovered anything--

KS Correct. We have not uncovered anything but we definitely get lots of calls in regards to it--

CS If an area is redlined the property values are going down period.

KS That’s true and I would say there’s not a week that doesn’t go by somebody doesn’t call in here that feels like there is some very, very unethical practices going on and many times we have calls from real estate brokers and have misrepresented people down there quoting wrong prices and so forth maybe trying to sell their property not at the prices they want or try to double deal on them and so forth and using scare tactics and so forth. Walking into a 85:00neighborhood and just walking the whole block and telling people on the whole block that you got to get out of here that this block is going down for some reason or another and all these kinds of things and so forth so you know. Hey, you hear these things and you’re constantly trying to assist with people who have to deal because it’s really very, very had for them. I think there has been some agencies set up to sort of be a watchdog, a mediator dealing with these kinds of tactics going on and I know Louisville real estate brokers are constantly being pulled down for unethical practices by members of their organization you know. So it’s a sad situation it’s across the country in a lot of cities that these kinds of practices do exist and you simply try to knock it out where you see it.

CS You haven’t had uncovered any major problems with that, it’s mainly people 86:00calling in--

KS Mainly people calling into us from time to time feeling like that they

CS {inaudible}

KS Correct, some kind of unethical procedures going on.

CS Is this in all black neighborhoods or is this block busting in white neighborhoods too?

KS I’d say probably a combination of both because sometimes for the few people, blacks that you do have that are living out they’ve even run into some problems.

CS Blacks living in a white community?

KS Yeah, I remember one guy who bought a house and he said he moved in and he found out later that the house, there were some things missing in the house that he thought were supposed to be there. And, he went back to the realtor or person that sold it to make a complaint and certain things he presumed were there after he finally got in and made a check weren’t. So, they took him down to court and so forth an they hemmed and hawed and the realtor was trying to get the owner to 87:00fix it up to standards and so forth and the buyer was so upset because he had sold his house and he was trying to move in and he was there and some things weren’t the way he thought they were going to be and they went out in court for about two or three years there just battling back and forth. You know the realtor was trying to get the owner to do what he was supposed to do and the seller and so forth and all this and so forth. So you know it’s unfortunate that you have a lot of this going on but the housing situation is that basically there aren’t enough houses in the West End and the ones that are there have, the better ones have been taken or they just don’t exist. So, a young family who’s looking for a house to purchase and to buy sort of has to go out into the Eastern part of the city to find any kind of a new kind of a house. There are a lot of houses in the West End that need fixing up, there are a lot of houses 88:00that are boarded up which need total revamping and so forth. There are a lot of houses in the West End that need to be torn down because they’ve been sitting there shacks and so forth and just simply taking out.

CS Question, a house that needs fixing up in the West End if it is a redline area, it’s not economically feasible to fix it up?

KS That’s true, that’s true--

CS You can’t get the money anyway.

KS You can’t get the money anyway and you go to the bank and they say hey it’s not worth our investment to you to put the money into that house because it’s not going to pay you back. So unless you have some money in your pocket or have somebody you can borrow from you know there you sit with a structure that might need six thousand dollars worth of work done to it that you can make into apartments or you can live in it yourself or whatever that could be maybe sold back on the market for thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen thousand dollars homes something like that but the way prices are going up today. Banks just have that line that say this is a good risk or it’s not a good risk. This house won’t 89:00or it either is approved or not approved.

CS Let me ask you if you have any other general comments that you’d like to make concerning black history in Louisville of the economic aspects of Louisville and Louisville’s history, just kind of real informal here.

KS I think we see a new day coming to pass. We have a black bank here in the city of Louisville that is now into it’s one and a half year in operation.

CS Continental National

KS Correct and that has definitely going to help blacks. They’re going to be able to give loans to blacks that a lot of white banking institutions have not been able to afford to do. They will take that kind of marginal kind of guy that doesn’t have a great deal of money in his pocket but they are willing to bend over a little bit further than some of the other institutions and have already 90:00put close to maybe two and three million dollars back out in the community in loans and so forth for homes or business establishments or improvements, home improvements and so forth. So, this was a real major breakthrough for the black community to be able to have it’s own financial institutions that you could go down and talk to the black president and say here’s what’s on my mind--hey here’s what will you approve it or not. I think that has to be a definite sign toward an upturn in economic conditions here within for the black community, a signal for them. I think too the fact that you have more blacks in better kinds of positions and jobs. You have more black college graduates than before. You 91:00have more blacks that are getting into the middle class who are now with man and wife working both on good kinds of jobs. You have more of that black middle class earning anywhere let’s say from fourteen to twenty thousand dollars a year with two people and so forth who are able to buy a good home, who are able to live in some kind of reasonable, comfortable living conditions and so forth. I’m seeing more of this so that means there are more black success stories than ever before. So those signs of improvement give me a sense of encouragement that it is improving, but still the masses of us still haven’t been able to feel that, that kind of great improvement such as that and you still have more people living in the housing projects than you do in the beautiful homes and so forth. 92:00So, bearing that in mind it’s both good and bad out there, even though the good and bad have improved the good still outweighs the bad.

CS Well, I’ve taken up a lot of your time--

KS Well that’ll about do it and I hope maybe I was of some help and so forth.

CS Yeah, definitely. Thank you very much that concludes the interview with Mr. Kenneth Stanley.