Interview with Frank Hobich, June 12, 1977

Marsha Brugman: This is Sunday June 12, 1977. It's 2:00 o'clock in the afternoon. This is Marsha Brugman and today I'm interviewing Mr. Frank Hobich at his home at 10209 National Turnpike. This interview is part of our project on the Parkland area of Louisville. We're visiting with residents of the Parkland area. We are finding out what the area used to be like and what it is like today. We are interviewing people who live in the Parkland area or who work in the Parkland area. Mr. Hobich is a beat policeman in the Parkland area and I think that you're one of the few beat patrolmen left in the entire city of Louisville aren't you?

Frank Hobich: Right.

MB: Are you the only one left now?

FH: Yes, the only neighborhood walking man.

MB: Uh -huh, okay. Can you give us a little biographical history to start out with? Where you were born? Where you grew up?

FH: I was born in Louisville, Louisville, Kentucky; raised in an orphan's home, St. Joe's orphans home. When I left the orphanage, I went to the seminary. I 1:00stayed there for six years and then came out.

MB: What year were you born?

FH: 1919.

MB: Now what did you decide to do when you came out of the seminary?

FH: Well I wasn't sure. I wasn't satisfied. Went to the factory, went to Philip Morris. Philip Morris, I worked there and then I decided I wanted to be a police man.

MB: So what year did you join the police?

FH: 1951.

MB: And you are a city policeman?

FH: Right, March of 1951.

MB: What did you do when you first joined the police force? Did you have a particular beat? Did you drive around in a car?

FH: Yes, I went to the third district.

MB: And what area of town is that?

FH: The south end.

MB: How many years did you stay in the south end?

FH: Fourteen years.

MB: And what year did you come into the Parkland area?

FH: I came in Parkland in 1967.

MB: And what the whole idea of you coming to Parkland? Were you coming to be a walking policeman at that time?

FH: Right.

MB: Were there very many in the city, walking patrols?

FH: As I said I was the only walking areas in this town at that time. There never had been a walking area in the neighborhood.

MB: How did they decide to do it?

FH: Well Parkland, when the city annexed Parkland, see Parkland was a township of its own, and the city of Louisville annexed Parkland and they stipulated it would be a walking man

MB: How did you get selected for the job, do you have any idea?

FH: Well I guess they go through the papers, anyway all I know is they come and ask me if that I would be walking the beat there.

MB: Can you remember what you thought at the time? Were you interested in trying it?

FH: Well I was interested and at the time I thought it was too big of a job for 3:00one man. I never walked a beat before. I always wanted to walk.

MB: What blocks did it cover at that time? Is it any different from what you cover now?

FH: No, it's the same.

MB: What blocks is it?

FH: You cover from Virginia to Dumesnil, that's the 1200 block. And then from Catalpa down to Olive, that's the 27, 2800 block of Dumesnil. And then Parkland Elementary and the library.

MB: And you just walk the rounds all day long then?

FH: Walk and talk.

MB: (Laughter) Walk and talk. Did you do that, the same route then from the very beginning as you do today?

FH: Right.

MB: Six days a week or five days a week?

FH: Then it was six days, we were on a six day week.

MB: And you're down to five days now?

FH: Down to five days now.

MB: That's a treat! (Laughter) Was the Parkland area at that particular time, 4:00especially in the immediate area that you walked, was that a predominantly black area?

FH: No when I first came down there it was uh . . . the shopping center was white. I'd say almost 99 percent that is ownership, white. Of course now it's just about 99 percent black now.

MB: What about the houses immediately around the shopping area, the ownership of those, or people who occupied those?

FH: There were mostly white.

MB: And that was what year, 1960 . . . ?FH: '67.

MB: '67 okay. Now has it almost taken a complete reverse then in terms of housing as well as shop ownership?

FH: Right.

MB: What else can you remember about the area when you came in in 1967?

FH: Oh it was like a town of its own. The businesses were flourishing.

MB: Nice businesses?

FH: Thursday, Friday and Saturday I had to get out and direct traffic, the traffic was so heavy. It was just like a downtown area.

MB: That's so hard to imagine after seeing it now. What was it variety dime stores, A & P?

FH: They had two big supermarkets, A & P and you had Shookman's Meat Market, Tony's Meat Market. You had a hardware, five and ten, two big clothing stores. A Pawn shop, two shoe shops. Two, three cleaners, a Swiss cleaners and a ( ) Cleaners. And beauty shop, jewelry store, drug store. Had the bank.

MB: Oh there was a bank branch there too?

FH: Yes, the Bank of Louisville.

MB: That's just phenomenal thinking what it is today. Now in comparison, and of 6:00course I've seen and I've been there and you're there every day, what's left there now in that immediate little shopping area there at 28th and Dumesnil?

FH: Well they still have, they have a Gateway Market now we just opened. And you have the hardware store, laundromat, we still have one cleaner and a barber shop.

MB: The jewelry store's gone though right?

FH: Jewelry store is gone.

MB: Is the bank there anymore?

FH: No the bank is gone. The pawn shop is gone. Both dry goods stores are gone.

MB: Meat market, the meat market isn't there anymore is it?

FH: It's still there, Tony's meat market.

MB: Now has the outside appearance of the stores and everything changed an awful lot?

FH: It's changed oh goodness!

MB: Disintegrating as well?

FH: Uh-huh.

MB: What else do you remember about the Parkland area and its residents in '67? Were there any special things about your beat that you liked and disliked at 7:00that time?

FH: Well my likes and dislikes haven't changed, they are the same?

MB: What are you likes and dislikes?

FH: Well I am contented to be able to walk and talk and to be able to assist and help anyone that wanted assisted.

MB: What were some of your dislikes in terms of, was there anything in terms of the job at all?

FH: No, there was nothing I disliked, no because I fit anywhere I go.

MB: That's obvious (Laughter)! That's obvious! What kind of things do you think have happened in terms of this last ten years, to the area, because you know when you were describing what it was like in '67 with the wonderful access to shopping and it was so busy? What do you think happened? Was it white flight? Did people get scared to operate businesses? Were they getting robbed or what?

FH: Well it wasn't so much that, but intimidation. When the shoppers would come in, see it was right after the riot . . . so many of them, I don't know what the term would be . . . if you recall it . . . . It was fear! When the customers would come in and there was so much strong arm tactics. And it just got to them, you know.

MB: Was it a black group, was it a militant young black group? Because I heard at the library some of the old people talking about it; some of the kids.

FH: I can't think of the word that . . . You know and they use it every day.

MB: People just got fed up with trying to operate under those conditions.

FH: You know they . . . . What in the heck do you call it? It's where they want so much a month not to bother.

MB: Oh! Oh I know what you mean! It's where you pay for protection from boys and this kind of thing, where you pay to not have your business bothered. Were they actually bothering the businesses, actually doing it?

FH: No, it was the hassle, you know, like the pawn shop when they would come in and look at things they'd act like they were going to put it in their pocket and the guy would come and say, "What's the matter with you," you know.

MB: People got tired of having to put up with that.

FH: Different things like that that would just be a hassle, continuous hassle. Or they'd go sometime in the grocery, the private grocery, not the A & P but the other one and drop things and break them. "Oh what did I do?!"

MB: Oh that's a shame!

FH: See, but different things like that that were continuous, they just couldn't take it.

MB: Were they people that were long established families who had lived in Parkland?

FH: No, no!

MB: Were they people, transient people moving in?

FH: People out of the area that would come in. And see it would needle me too because I would have the files but I couldn't keep track of all the different groups. Some guys I could talk to them and tell them to leave, you know, go on. But then by the time I got down to this end there would be another group down at this end.

MB: So a lot of it was not residents in the immediately surrounding areas?

FH: No, none of this was in the area, no it was all outside. Anytime an outsider would come in I would know it and I would start following them.

MB: That's too bad because I've never been able to get anybody to say . . . .FH: But the riot itself was not the main factor in making them move, that wasn't the big, it was the after . . . what in the heck do you call it?

MB: I've seen in on television shows and everything and I know exactly what you are talking about but I can't . . . .FH: ( ) inaudible [Laughter]

MB: Yeah, I know exactly what you are talking about though, because I know a lot 11:00of times in big cities they get that type of thing going where they just literally scare the shop owners out.

FH: Over in the ( ) they was doing it for a while and they brought it out in the open or most of them denied it.

MB: Well I know you get so many rumors in other parts of town and I had heard so much about the Parkland area, so many people from the outside said that as the result of the riots and everything, a lower class of people moving into the areas. That it ruined the shopping center; it ruined the climate of the community and everything and that it was something to really be fearful of to go there. It's been kind of surprising in the last week or so that I have been there that I am not getting that kind of feeling. There's a tough element in any part of town but there is a lot of long standing people in those neighborhoods who are suffering as well. Because that 27, 2800 block of Virginia Avenue I met some of the old people over there. They talk about how difficult it is now for 12:00them to get to shopping, you know, there's a lot of the good shops that are gone. And they said there's a real problem with break-ins and this kind of thing.

FH: Yeah well now this is another thing, some of the merchants have moved out because they feel like they weren't getting enough protection from the police, you know, at night. But myself personally I don't know why the police never could find them, the break-ins, because each part of the shopping area on the east side and the west side you have a parking lot where you can drive clean around!

MB: So there were no hidden areas.

FH: You can see everything and yet I would come down there in the morning and here I would find a break-in here and a break-in there and I would just wonder why they didn't find it before I came on or before they went off. And that was discouraging to them and it didn't happen only once but several times.

MB: Was there a lot of break-ins in private homes?

FH: Yeah, if the people leave.

MB: Of course I know that's happening in just about every area of town now.

FH: And see people won't tell on each other; they won't point. And I try to talk -- every group I get, I talk and tell them when they come down to the shop, come in groups; call your neighbor and come on down. A lot of them don't have transportation. I'd say, "Call your neighbor and then three, four, five of you walk down and then you can walk back and your safer, you know, in pairs then you are with coming down. . . ."

MB: Is there a lot of purse-snatching and bothering of the elderly as well?

FH: In the far areas coming down; in the immediate area, no. No, we're real fortunate in the immediate Southland area.

MB: I was talking to one gentleman this last week who has lived since the early Fifties in the 2800 block of Virginia Avenue and he was talking like you have 14:00been about the nice shopping facilities; the attractive shops, even hardware shops where you could get anything and everything. He said that for years they never had to venture into other ends of town or anything because everything they needed was right there and they're an elderly couple now and he was talking about his neighbors around him too, how difficult that had been because they couldn't get out. He has bad eyesight, he can't drive, so they're just really confined and it's very hard to get to the nicer shopping areas and things.

FH: See after the riots now, most of the people lost their insurance or their premiums were raised and some were raised so high they couldn't carry it.

MB: In the shops?

FH: In the shopping areas and the homeowners. All of them had been raised. Most of the homes down there had no insurance.

MB: Were the riots really that bad or was it that the insurance companies were fearful that it would happen again?

FH: That it would happen again, yeah.

MB: So everybody in the surrounding area was penalized for it.

FH: Right, right. And this is almost the whole West End now. Not just in that area, all of it. You talk to any of the owners and ask them about their insurance and how much it's extended. Now maybe for a fire or a windstorm, their insurance is great, but for anything else -- break-ins or anything -- half of them can't get it unless they pay that premium.

MB: And you're talking in terms of people who have limited incomes, who are paying tremendous gas and electric bills and everything else and then those premium payments?

FH: Right.

MB: Yeah, I had no idea it was that high. I know since I've been in the area, lots of people have referred to when the riots were there and everything and I didn't live in Louisville then and I had no idea whether it was even that bad.

FH: Most of your small businesses don't have insurance at all, so if they're broken into, they're finished.

MB: Well, no wonder they can't keep shops in the area!

FH: That's why a lot of them in our area, they'd have one or two break-ins and that was all of it. Now Johnson's clothing, he had a beautiful business; beautiful clothes and done a heck of a business. And they broke in once and he could sustain that loss. Then the next loss, they had a big dance down at the Masonic tent and these kids hooked up chains to their car and to the front end of the bars, you know, and pulled the bars out and broke the glass and went in and stole I forgot how many thousands of dollars' worth of clothes, beautiful clothes. And then tore up all of his showcases, broke all of the glass in them and I reckon his loss then was about twelve or thirteen thousand dollars.

MB: And when you're talking about somebody who can't afford to get insurance anymore, I can see where something like that would wipe them out.

FH: That was all of him, he had to go and fold up. Just like the shoe shop -- O'Brien's Shoe Shop. Now he's an old timer that was down there. Kids would come in and get their shoes fixed you know; that night they would break in the back end and steal the shoes. Come in the next morning -- "Where's my shoes? Well, you'll have to pay me for them!"

MB: And he knew he was happening but of course there's nothing you can do about something like that!

FH: He had to leave. Now he's over at -- what's that shopping center on Preston Street?

MB: Indian Trail?

FH: Indian Trail. He's over there somewhere. O'Brien's Shoe Shop.

MB: O'Brien's? Hmm, I'll have to look him up. I've wanted to look up some of the older shop owners and everything. I really never understood the economics.

FH: There's so many little things like that, why they . . . . But, this happened so many times -- they would break in his back window and he would board it, he would bar it, he would wire it; they'd still get in.

MB: Yeah. Now one place I stopped the other day is there on 28th Street, the 18:00little hardware shop, and she's got some dry goods things in there and everything too. It's right across from the A&P.

FH: Yeah, Trail and Stovall.

MB: Right. How are shops like that staying in now? Do they just have tremendous security themselves with bars over the windows?

FH: Well, they have insurance but their premium is high and of course, it's a little cheaper with the bars.

MB: And they're just surviving from day to day.

FH: Right. They have alarm systems on them; most of them have alarm systems.

MB: What hours do you work?

FH: I work seven to three.

MB: Seven to three? Then, when you go off at three, then is that up to the city patrolman from then on -- that are in their cars -- to watch the areas; all the rest until you come back on at seven in the morning?

FH: Right.

MB: Do they have any -- I imagine with a beat cop, they have to give you a little bit smaller area to patrol since you're on foot. What about those policemen that are in cars, do they have such a vast area to patrol?

FH: They have a pretty big beat that extends I don't know how many miles any more, but I'd say they have a good couple miles square.

MB: Mmm-hmm, that they have to cover, so that might account for some of the reasons why they aren't in a particular area when a break-in is going on.

FH: Yeah but if you -- at night though, if you've got a beat, you don't miss. I rode the beat fourteen years and I know how I'd do. Maybe I wouldn't catch all of the break-ins but the morning before I went into the district, I found every break-in that we had. The oncoming beat man that patrolled didn't have to find them. So when I got finished with my beat he wasn't going to find a break-in.

MB: What do you think are some of the reasons, not a special interest in the community for one thing?

FH: Possible. Don't have the time, don't take the time or could be they don't 20:00even know how. They even don't think of the principles of patrolling an area -- what to look for, how to look for.

MB: I don't know that much about the police department here, but it seems that they've left you in your area for a good number of years. Do they tend to do that with other police officers? Because it would seem like that's the way you build up an interest in your community by being there for a number of years getting to know the people, that even if you're not an exceptionally friendly person, it would seem that after a number of years you would begin to recognize a few people anyway. Do they move them around a lot?

FH: Yeah, they move them a lot.

MB: And I imagine with every advancement or every promotion, people are moved around even more so. Do you think that might be some of the reason why some of these areas aren't getting a whole lot of interest because a police officer doesn't stay with them for a length of time?

FH: That's very possible too or if you have a lot of them that go up to an area that they don't want to be and they're bitter and if you have bitterness, you 21:00don't have interest.

MB: Now if I ask a question that you don't want, I don't want to get you in trouble with the police department, but I often wonder if with some of the white policemen in particular, if they sometimes aren't given a black area to patrol as punishment. If that isn't seen as a promotion, but . . . .FH: Well, that's gossip; that's rumored within the department that if he's put in a given area that's not feasible to a man, that it's punishment.

MB: Do you think there's any fact to that?

FH: It used to be in the past, I don't know about now because I don't ride. I just imagine the philosophy behind it is still there.

MB: That's a shame. Right there can give you a real narrow attitude. What kind 22:00of responses have you gotten from fellow police officers for the area that you worked, or you ever around fellow police officers that much?

FH: Well the old timers -- when I first went down there, the old timers, they would stop by. Wasn't a day go by they didn't bring coffee or something from the White Castle or what. We'd talk awhile and they'd check, wanting to know if I needed anything -- batteries or pencils, you know. Of course as time went on, the old fellows left and of course the new fellows I hardly know. To me, they don't look at my uniform and see it's the same one they got on. They think I'm a door-shaker or a merchant policeman. I'll wave and they'll go on. There are some that still stop and talk. It's hard for me to say because I don't like to get 23:00involved and in my mind, I know what it's all about. When I used to go down and pick my batteries up at the main headquarters, I used to hear, "Here comes the nigger lover."

MB: Oh wow, that's a shame.

FH: So see, I was fighting two things within the department, yet we're brothers. And that's hard to believe, because if they needed help or anytime they came in the area and needed help, I'd help them.

MB: So because you were down there and you liked your job and you didn't mind being there -- obviously you're interested in being in the area -- some of the other officers weren't very supportive of it. That's really too bad. How have you felt you've been accepted by the community that you work in?

FH: I've never thought about it a whole lot. My objective was to do whatever 24:00pleased them within the law; that was my objective.

MB: Did you have any problems being accepted in the beginning?

FH: Yeah, I had a hard fight. I sure did.

MB: Was it because you were a police officer or was it because you were white?

FH: Well it was two-fold; a lot of the time they used to have to figure, "What is it"? Is it me being a policeman or if it's me being white or is it both? Now in some cases, it was both. But it's rare now; it's real rare for any of that to come up now.

MB: What do people say to you? Does anybody ever express surprise now, people that work in the area -- or are you just part of the area now? No one is surprised that you're there?

FH: Oh, a lot of them take me for granted now and I'm a fixture.

MB: [Laughs] You're a fixture! Did you ever thing you would be a fixture?

FH: No, I never wanted to be a fixture. I always wanted to be something new every day, not just something that's supposed to be there, belong there.

MB: Do you ever have any of the younger people ever say that they're surprised you're still there?

FH: Oh yeah, I have people -- "You're still here? Man, I thought you'd be gone by now." "How do you mean I'd be gone, retire?" "Oh no, no; I figured they'd carry you out." So there's thoughts.

MB: I think it says something about people's experiences all over the city that you just don't have that rapport and the friendship and the same policeman with you for years. It really is an unusual situation. You used to have that years ago, and then it really was a neighborhood cop. That really is something. You don't have too many experiences now where people find you walking [not what is asked per se, but what it sounds like] in the area.

FH: No, if I do it's a stranger. I mean, I can either smell them or see them a mile away.

MB: Oh yeah, really?!

FH: Oh yeah. I doubt myself but I know when you can tell a troublemaker; he's 26:00got that way and then when he gets to you, there's the words and you say to yourself, "Well, now what's he going to be?"

MB: Do you know most everybody by name?

FH: No, not everybody, no.

MB: But you recognize people facially? I was talking to some people who live down off Northwestern Parkway near the river and drive through everyday to the university and drive through to downtown and they even knew you there. You're evidently quite well known.

FH: It's wonderful the way it's turned out. I never imagined how many people I would get to know as time went on.

MB: Did you ever have any interest in moving on to anything else? Did you ever want to go back to being in the car? You want to stay there?

FH: No, I'd have to retire if they put me back in a car.

MB: Oh really? What is there that's so special and unique about walking a beat? 27:00Getting to know the people?

FH: Oh yeah; and the kids. Every day you come down and it's something different and you wonder, "Well, what is the big surprise today?" Every day it's going to be something different.

MB: And it wasn't that when you were in a car?

FH: No, no; it was different experiences but you didn't look too forward to it. But this is a closeness.

MB: How many years do you have to go until retirement?

FH: Oh, I can retire any time.

MB: Oh, really? Have they told you that you can just stay there an unlimited amount of time?

FH: No, they don't tell you nothing [chuckles].

MB: Do you think you're going to stay on a few more years though?

FH: Oh yeah.

MB: It's an unusual situation, there's no doubt about it. What kinds of things do you see happening in the Parkland area other than when we were talking about the shops and the kinds of things that have happened to drive people out? Do you 28:00see the neighborhoods as deteriorating as some of the other residents do? They feel the neighborhood is going down.

FH: It's going down but then every so often there's a new venture coming in like the supermarket; the Gateway, it's opened up again and it gives you new insight that maybe it's going to spread. There'll be something else coming in or somebody wants to rebuild. Down over where Vine Records, now a new man bought the place, a new owner and he's fixing up now and they've already moved a chess shop in.

MB: So you're getting hopeful with signs like that?

FH: Yeah.

MB: What do you think it is that's happened in terms of the houses and the actual homeowners and everything -- were the houses built for another age and another time? They're so gigantic I wonder how people can pay their gas and electric bills. Is that some of what's happened?

FH: Most of those homes, they outlived their day and time. It's a new thing now; things are smaller and they should be smaller from your standpoint of heating and lighting. Big places, you just can't heat them anymore and most of them people down there now are on fixed incomes and they can't afford them.

MB: Let alone any outside kinds of repairs or roofs or anything else like that.

FH: The Urban League down there, they've been talking about -- through the city government, the county government -- building a high-rise apartment building down there for the elderly who are retired. Now if they ever do that that would be one of the biggest shopping centers in the West End again. And they keep talking about it.

MB: And that would be so wonderful for some of those people down there.

FH: Here's another thing now that would revitalize the shopping center and they've been trying to get Mayor Sloane -- and of course, it's Russ Maple now. He's coming on big with the idea, (where he got it, I don't know). He come down 30:00there one time and I was talking with him -- I don't even remember everything I said to him -- this may be one of his things but in his campaign now [he says] "Tear it all down and rebuild and sell it to the merchants!" And that's what we've been preaching for the last four years. And they want to buy -- most of the black folks down there want to buy but they want you to fix it where the security would be good on it.

MB: Right.

FH: But the buildings they got down there now are so dilapidated, run-down. One string of stores there, you got to go down into the basement of one store to put fuses in for the store way down the way here.

MB: So there outdated and everything!

FH: This guy here ain't there half the time, so they have to wait until he comes in to get lights.

MB: So one of the ideas of some of the people in the area then was to totally 31:00clear and take them all down --

[Tape ends abruptly].