Interview with Matt Davis, June 27, 1977

Marsha Bruggman: This is Marsha Bruggman. This is Monday, June 27, 1977. Today we are continuing our project on the oral history of the Parkland area, and we're looking into some of the histories of the businesses in the Parkland area. One of the first that comes to mind is the Reynolds Aluminum Company, which is on 28th and Hale, between Hale and Grant. Today we're visiting with Mr. Matt MD, and can you tell me what your position is with the company now?

Matt Davis: I'm on a leave of absence from Reynolds Metals Company, and my position with the union is the president/business representative of Local #155 of the Aluminum Workers International Union, and I'm also a vice president of the Aluminum Workers International Union. Our home office is located in St. Louis, Missouri.

MB: When you said that you're on a leave of absence, can you not be an officer with the union and work with the company at the same time, or is the union business just occupying you full-time?

MD: The union business occupies me full-time. At one time, we had three full-time officers, and now we only have two full-time officers and the secretary, but it does require a hundred percent of our time. We have, of course, in addition to the union business that the people would be aware of, we also have an evaluation system that's a constant challenge to the union to keep the necessary preventative measures to keep the thing from falling.

MB: Okay. What year did you come to work on the Reynolds (inaudible).

MD: I come to work in the year 1940.

MB: Could you give me a little brief history or background of the Reynolds Company prior to your coming to work?

MD: The way I understand it, after I come to work, the Reynolds Metals Company had been in operation for a number of year prior thereto. In the department that I worked at in plant one -- that's at 28th and Hale -- I worked with a number of employees who had been long-term employees for the company at that time. Of course, that was in the company's infancy. We didn't have insurance policies or pensions or any of the union conditions as we now know it, although they were a 3:00good company to work for as the standards of the various companies went in them years. The Reynolds Metals Company has never been an anti-union company. They've always accepted the unions after they was recognized and then bargained with them down through the years and kept pace with the economy of the country. I personally have been associated with Mr. Reynolds, Sr. up until the day he passed away, and I have personally been associated with Mr. Reynolds, Jr., our most recent president of the company and chairman of the board, and all of the Reynolds presidents since the time I have been associated with the company, the Reynolds boys -- both David Reynolds and Richard Reynolds and, I believe, Jane 4:00Lewis Reynolds -- have all worked in plant one as employees, working and getting their start, working as production people.

MB: Did their father command that of the boys, I wonder?

MD: I don't think so, really (cough), it was possibly for them to get to know the business, and both boys are still active with the company as vice-presidents in charge of the various divisions; but many of the workers can remember them as fellow workers in the plant.

MB: That's really interesting. They didn't start out at the top, then, they were right down here at 28th and Hale --

MD: Twenty-eighth and Hale --

MB: -- as production workers.

MD: -- as production workers.

MB: That's interesting.

MD: Yes, and many of the people -- well, there's very few of them left that can recall the days of working right next to them, but some of our retired people do recall it.

MB: You think that made or accounts for some of the loyalty that people have toward the Reynolds family?

MD: Absolutely, absolutely. For many, many years Mr. Reynolds, Sr. would come and tour the plant. He would come in and shake the hands of the employees, and after the union was formed, sometime in later years as he would come through the plant and greet a lot of his old acquaintances. I can say that in his generous mood, he caused the union at lot of problems, because of the fact that he would listen to the people, and sometimes he would grant them privileges that he didn't grant through the union. That caused some problems, but the problems weren't of such magnitude that they couldn't be explained and (inaudible); but his close associate with the people was something else, and I can say at this -- 6:00after the many years that I have been associated with the Reynolds Group, the executive offices of the company are never closed to us. We can call them on the phone, visit them, and we are never denied an audience. That goes from all the way up to the president and the various vice presidents in the many divisions of the Reynolds Metals Company.

MB: It seems like it's an unusual situation.

MD: Yes, it is.

MB: That's terrific.

MD: It's something that we don't abuse because we feel very strongly that it is a privilege to be able to talk to the executives of the company when needed, and it has avoided a lot of embarrassing situations.

MB: Now, Mr. Reynolds, Sr. -- one of the fellows at the plant a few days ago was telling me that Mr. Reynolds, Sr. had bought this original plant in 1919, I believe, on 28th and Hale, and that was the start of what today is an unbelievable corporation, that one little plant. Do you remember what some of their first products were? What did they get into business for?

MD: I can't answer that as an authority. I've heard rumors that they did begin to manufacture a cleansing product at one time along with other products, but I do recall many people talking about the company's [lip oil?] lines, and they run an operation where they made condenser foil, and I understand, too, that they 8:00rolled tin and used it for certain purposes. Then, of course, they got into the aluminum part of it. That was back during the -- a lot was referred to the defense efforts where we furnished aluminum products to a number of the foreign countries, including France (inaudible).

MB: When you came in 1940, did they have a primary product at that point?

MD: Yes, we at that time -- when I went to work for the Reynolds Company, we were very much into -- very much involved in producing the sheet aluminum for the fighter planes and many of the heavy-gauged aluminum was used even in the 9:00fighter pilots' cockpits for protective measures, and we shipped the metal to the people and the countries that were the allies of the United States; and of course, back in them days, we had the security in the plants where the government officials would just make sure that all defense plants abided by the rules and regulations laid down by the government for that purpose at that time.

MB: So that was pretty much what was occupying them during the '40s during World War II?

MD: Right.

MB: When you came to the company, what was your first position?

MD: My first position was to sweep the floor. I went in there at fifty cents an hour and made $20 a week.

MB: Oh, you're kidding. Oh, no. How long did you stay there?

MD: I stayed there for about two days sweeping the floor until I decided I could do something better, and I challenged the foreman on it, and he gave me a smart-aleck answer; but I got a better job out of it and was put on as a helper of the various equipment. I was then promoted to sort of an overseer of all the operators in a big department that had about [15?] diversified operations, and then I got active in the union and became the shop steward to the department and --

MB: Now, when did the union come into the plant? Was that before you came even?

MD: That was before my time.

MB: Oh. Late '30s?

MD: I understand it was in 1937.

MB: Okay. But through your job, then, you became active in the union -- became shop steward?

MD: Shop steward -- I first became very active in the later movement's effort to collect steel for the war effort. We volunteered, and the company furnished trucks to truck drivers, and we furnished the muscles. We would take jackhammers and dig up the old car rails all over the city, and we collected scrap from everywhere -- even, I remember, a number of us moved some heavy safes out of certain places on Main Street for scrap purposes where the safes were so heavy when we rolled them across the sidewalks, they would break the sidewalk. But we collected streetcar rails, all kinds of metal that could be used in the war effort, and this went on for weeks.

MB: Was that donated to the war effort out of loyalty to the war and to the country?

MD: Yes, but all of the work was donated by the labor movement and the scrap drives, and --

MB: And that's what started your interest in the labor movement, being involved in that?

MD: Right, involved in that, and then I helped organize other things that were necessary in the labor movement at that particular time. As a result at it, this was the first union I ever belonged to, and I became interested in it, and today I'm their president and business representative.

MB: Is it maintained the same title and the same union number as I noticed on the sign on the building as I came in?

MD: No, we at one time were known as the Federal Labor Union Local [#19388?], 13:00and we were part of the International Council of Aluminum Workers Unions. Now, before the local -- before the AF of L back in them days would grant the title to a union to be known as an international union, you had to prove that you was big enough to take care of your own business. It took us a number of years to convince the American Federation of Labor at that time that we were big enough to take care of our own business; and, which will give you some history of that, I'm going to let you use one of our yearbooks back in 1948 that shows a picture of William Green and George [Meaney?] and our officers back in that time -- 14:00actually I'm the first vice president of the international union back in them times. So that'll give you some history of how we became an international union.

MB: Okay, at the point that you came into the company in 1940, did the Reynolds Company already have subsidiaries in other places, or was this building down on 28th and Hale -- was that still their only building? Were they already branching out --

MD: They had already began branching out when I had went to work for the company, yes.

MB: How many branches do they have at this point in time?

MD: Oh, I couldn't answer that. I know they've got branches in about 40 of our 48 states, and we've got the International Aluminum Company, we've got 15:00operations in foreign companies, and it's just unbelievable. Jay Lewis Reynolds, I think, is the vice president in charge of Reynolds International, and we have various interests in the bauxite mines in Jamaica and different places like that.

MB: Gosh. But this particular plant at 28th and Hale in the Parkland area, that was the original plant, that was where the Reynolds Company started?

MD: That was the original plant.

MB: You were telling me rather an interesting story about the introduction of aluminum foil -- the product that whenever I think of Reynolds I always think of the kitchen and the aluminum foil -- could you tell me something about that, and about what year was that? And I believe that occurred here in Louisville, right?

MD: Yes, but now it wasn't the introduction of aluminum foil, this was the introduction of what a lot of people refer to as the kitchen foil. Now, aluminum foil was used way back -- I mean, in the early years of the company it was for cigarette wrapping, candy wrapping, and all of this. This was a new use for it in the kitchen wrap, and that's -- when that come out, I think it come out prior 16:00to the year 1950, but our organization -- or it was my idea that we should help introduce this foil, because we felt it was a good product, and we felt that the introduction to the people in the city of Louisville would help us have more job security here in the city as a result of it. We canvassed all of our workers, and including the craft workers in Reynolds, and we took a big city map and mapped out the canvassing area for each employee and each volunteer, and we met 17:00with them individually and in groups and give them what we felt would be an appropriate speech of introduction to their neighbors to introduce the foil. We talked to the company about our idea. I got the company to spare the expense and printed up the samples. Then we bought up enough shopping bags and printed on the outside of the shopping bags that it was a joint program between the company and the unions to introduce the foil. We filled each shopping bag with sufficient enough samples to introduce to the neighbors, and the housewives, and the occupants of the homes to show our product, and along with that we had pamphlets of the uses of it. Many of our people were invited into the homes, and they themselves come back with many ideas that were introduced and the uses of 18:00foils, and they got to meet their neighbors, and one of the unique things that we found out about this canvassing program was that many of the people wanted to extend their canvassing; they got to know so many people and meet so many interesting people they wanted to continue to do it. We found this to be especially true in many of the women and many of the, at that time, long-term employees of the company. I can remember one of the things that we talked about so much back in them days, the fact that could cut an onion and wrap it in foil, and it wouldn't smell up the iceboxes back in them days.

MB: And that was a big deal. (laughs)

MD: If you'll recall, back in them days there was still many iceboxes around instead of refrigerators.

MB: I just can't imagine it, because that's just such a part of everyday life now, and that product is. That's phenomenal. And all these were company employees and union people who volunteered extra time away from work to canvass their neighborhoods and pass out the samples.

MD: That's right. They didn't get paid. Nobody was paid any salary or extra bonuses in any way for doing this type of work.

MB: I just can't help but feel like it's an unusual company situation to get that kind of support and loyalty and time from people -- or maybe it's a sign of support for the union, I don't know. That's --

MD: Well, I just don't know that this day and time that you could really put on a program like that. Everybody seems to be too busy, and I don't know that the kind of loyalty has continued on like we had back in them days. I do believe 20:00that some of the newer workers get their roots down and continue to work for Reynold Metals Company, they will turn into being loyal employees after a time, but the youngster coming in off of the street today, he -- he doesn't know the history of the company, and most of them aren't aware of what the benefits that have been negotiated over the years really amount to until after they've had some -- start raising a family, getting some obligations, and experiences the many benefits that are included in the union contracts of today.

MB: Well, one of the company fellows told me that they just don't have much of an employee turnover except for retirees, that the benefits are so good that once people get on, they stay with their jobs. I thought that was kind of significant.

MD: It is, and it's true. We have an awful time sometimes when we -- during back in the days when our employment wasn't as stable as it is today, but our members would be laid off, they would have an awful time getting other companies to consider them for employment because when Reynolds would call back, they would leave the other company to come back to Reynolds, and they didn't like to employee the laid off Reynolds employees, and you can understand why.

MB: But yet, those companies didn't offer what Reynolds did, so obviously that's why people left.

MD: This is true, and again I think you'll find that in that in the aluminum industry, which Reynolds has played an intricate part down through the years, 22:00we've always had one of the best pension plans, best benefit plans as far as insurance and other benefits such as supplemental unemployment benefits. Reynolds has always been one of the first in that field, and when a person's got a few years, as I explained, to get their roots down -- you get so much seniority in Reynolds you've got a lot to lose if you don't come back and take care of your original investment, which is your investment for your future security, and this has played an awfully important part in the success of the Reynolds people here in the city of Louisville.

MB: You were telling me, too, before we had started the interview, that there was a danger at one time of the company closing down. Could you -- was that 23:00after the canvassing thing, or what period of time was that? What was going on?

MD: This had been -- this has been true over the years, because as we refer to it, Reynolds began during the wartime years, and I guess that their huge factories were government-owned at that time, and when we converted from the wartime operations into the domestic operations -- peacetime operations -- a lot of changes had to be made. New products had to come into being. Many of the plants that the Reynolds Company operated had been built by government supervisors, and they were, of course, had to be purchased as wartime surplus. I 24:00personally appeared before the [senagerian?] committee on the $700 million disposable aluminum plants on behalf of Reynolds Metals Company, and I've got --

MB: (inaudible)

MD: Yes, and I've got these speeches and letters that I made back in them years in trying to help the company get control of some of the operations and plants to maintain some employment here in the city of Louisville. But back in them days it was touch and go. These companies had to convert quickly to domestic operations and have the products, and have the customers to sell them to, and we went from 5,400 workers down pretty rapidly to, say, 3,000 and then reduced -- 25:00at one time, we reduced ourselves to almost -- to about 700 employees and --

MB: Now, during the wartime effort, there wasn't just this plant number one on 28th and Hale. There were how many operations going in the city of Louisville alone?

MD: We had -- best I could recall, we had approximately 11 different operations here in the city in all.

MB: And almost 6,000 employees.

MD: Right, and they consist of extrusion operations; fabrications plants, one of them -- or two of them for airplane parts that were later on converted into pot and pan divisions; and we have gone through a number of conversions; we have manufactured deep freezes; aluminum boats; all kinds of automotive parts; and 26:00various other domestic-type products; and we have manufactured and fabricated parts for many other manufacturing firms. We -- this has been tough competitive business, and naturally, as depressions hit, some businesses didn't survive, and we lost many of the operations, and we converted what was one of the original airplane fabricating parts -- plants into a plant that manufactured complete buildings, and we shipped from plant 12 here all over the country many of the building components that have [boats?] suddenly and many buildings in Chicago 27:00and Los Angeles; and here in the city of Louisville we have a building at, I believe, at third and Liberty or thereabouts, one of the church's [boats?] that was built and anodized in the plant in plant 12 on 18th Street. We had the largest anodizing operation in the whole world at plant 12.

MB: Anodizing?

MD: Anodizing.

MB: Anodizing. Now, what -- what's that?

MD: That is where that we would dip -- well, like this service station across the street here. It could dip a whole side of that into there and anodize it, which electronics or electric code charges would put the color into the aluminum, and of course we finally found that the conversion just wasn't good 28:00enough to stay in that type of business, and the company lost a lot of money trying to get into the building products. Now, we're still into the building products, but in various degrees, not on that large a scale. But I think a little bit of research will show you the many, many buildings in Chicago, New York that have been made right here in the city of Louisville.

MB: I didn't realize that they made that many products or had been in that many areas. That's phenomenal. Well, we're -- when they converted after the war effort, and the employees went down from almost 6,000 to at one time you said approximately 700, then was it that conversion that threatened plant number one at 28th and Hale? Were they just not making enough money, or were the skeptical 29:00(inaudible) --

MD: Well, a number of factors contributed to that. We had a bunch or a whole lot of equipment that was purchased by the Reynolds Metals Company from Germany, and many of the mills were known as [Smith mills?] -- Smith mills, foil-rolling mills. This equipment over the years became obsolete. It took one operator and a helper possibly to each piece of equipment. The modern equipment that we use today, one mill can outplace and outdo maybe 50 of the other mills, and during the depression the money wasn't available for the necessary equipment. We 30:00weren't maintaining our pace within the foil industry, and the company had to consider what operations would be closed down versus what operations were going to be maintained, and ours was one of the ones that were -- first big decision was to close my one. After much efforts and talking between the various groups -- the company and the union and their engineers -- plant one began to show a different image. Money was found to put in to new equipment, and many things was done to get us back into the competition that as a result of it we have the -- one of the best operations in the foil division today. Now, it took a lot of 31:00doing to bring that about. Many factors contributed to the success. I'm not trying to say that the union did it all, but the union did play an important part. And I don't want to say that this union by itself did this. Reynolds has contracts with, at that time, about 14 other unions working in the same plants. The craft workers, the machinists, the electricians, the painters, the pipefitters, and various others had their own individual contracts, and it had to be --

MD: ...to be, back in them days, and still is today, a challenge on any company's part to be able to maintain contracts with the various unions and not suffer too many work stoppages as a result thereof. So I think the company, the 32:00various unions, and our union, which, of course, we have the majority of people in the production workers' union, have had to work together with preventative measures to bring about the success that we are enjoying today.

MB: It's hard to imagine at one time, you know, that it was dying out. How many years did you actually work out of plant number 1?

MD: Approximately two years.

MB: Then moved to other positions within the company and --

MD: No, I became a full-time representative almost immediately. I was responsible and helped set up the original office in the [Toller?] building on Jefferson Street, and then we moved from the Toller building to the Washington building on Fourth and Market Street and then from the building at Fourth and 33:00Market to the old Henry Clay hotel, and I was responsible in talking the hotel management into converting the whole fourth floor to -- for union purposes, and they built it in at considerable expense and -- for union offices, and the original ballroom was redecorated and rehabilitated. It was the union hall. Then later on, it was sold to the YWCA, and it just didn't seem that the union officials and the many union members would be compatible with the young ladies in the YWCA, so that ended that affair. (laughs)

MB: (laughs) So you had to move out of there, huh? (laughs)

MD: Moved out of there onto Fourth Street up the street, and then we bought this building and remodeled this building.

MB: And it's at 2901.

MD: Twenty-nine-oh-one, and all of this work that you see in here, it was done by our members.

MB: Volunteer kind of thing?

MD: Volunteer type of thing. There was the other work that we had to have done by contractors, you know -- but the paneling and all of that was done by us. Yeah, I worked my tail off in here.

MB: (laughs) You did, putting this up, so you want somebody to appreciate it, huh? (laughs)

MD: (laughs)

MB: Oh, gosh. Well, since our project's, you know, primarily geared around, you know, the [proclenary?] and the businesses and industries that have made up the area over the years, I wanted to ask you -- you came to the plant in 1940, so you around 1940, 1941, 1942, right around there. Do you remember anything specific about the area surrounding plant number one at that time, what kind of area that was? Was that considered a good place to work?

MD: I think if -- yes, it was a good place to work. Back in them days, Virginia Avenue, which was a continuation of Oak Street at that time, was quite some elite neighborhood, you might say; and of course, in the west end they had the old Fountain Ferry amusement park, and various companies held various picnics down there. I can recall that the Reynolds out on Cane Run Road owned quite a bit of property that they one time -- well, way back when they would let the employees farm. They would allot so many areas to the various employees that 36:00would go out and have their own gardens. They were -- I think the neighborhood itself, we always considered, was a very good neighborhood and I feel is going to come back to being a good neighborhood.

MB: Who were the -- in the early '40s were the neighbors, people that lived in the homes surrounding the plant area? Were they pretty positive about having a plant there? Did they mind? Did they feel like Reynolds wrecked the neighborhood or that having a factory across the street or a block away deteriorated? Did you ever get any feelings that way?

MD: We never felt that way. I don't believe that that was ever felt there. One of the company doctors lived back over on behind -- lived behind the plant. His name was Dr. [Swackhouse?]. I think many of the employees lived in and around 37:00the -- lived around the plant, and I think there was never any friction, that I can recall, around there. There was four or five various restaurants and places that fed the employees, and --

MB: They were obviously benefitting from having the plant --

MD: It seemed like the neighbors who had prospered by the plant being there.

MB: Because I know -- the reason that I asked that question, I know today, you know, in so many of the neighborhoods people are so picky, whether it's going to mean employment for them or their neighbors or not, they just get very, very hostile about interrupting the neighborhood or putting in a gas station or having the possibility of a plant. In the Highlands area, where I live, if you talked about putting a plant in there, where there were half the people on the block unemployed, they just had cardiac arrests over it; and I wondered, you know, if that was the kind of response or if people needed the jobs and they saw that as a positive step, and they were glad to have the plant there and developing.

MD: Well, we never felt back in the early days that this was true. However, I think in times went on, and I feel that one of the contributing factors to the plant twelve area -- that's the 18th Street, 18th and Burnett -- the neighbors got hostile towards the plant, but I kind of feel that that was the promotion of the real estate people. They even -- somebody was influential enough to have put around in that neighborhood parking meters and no parking signs where the employees could not park on the street, and we along with the officials of the company would visit the city fathers many times, let them know what they were 39:00doing; and the prices on the property sky-rocketed, and there was a number of suits against the company because of the heavy equipment that we operated in the plant. The company had to pay out much money on a goodwill basis to try to keep the neighbors happy, but it just seems that it whet their appetite, and as a result of that when we lost plant twelve, houses that they were asking $25,000 for hit rock bottom, that you could probably buy in that neighborhood now for less than $2,000 if they don't give them away. There's nothing there, and this has been a bad thing for the city. I have felt for a long time that the city 40:00officials have not treated the Reynolds Metals Company correctly. When we -- they remodeled the old [Roddin Boar?] Mill at Third and Eastern Parkway and made it their office building, and when the company grew too large for that, they proposed to rezone some property out around [Anchorage?] to put their multimillion dollar corporate office in that area. The State Federation of Labor officials, the AF of L regional officials, along with our unions met with the city fathers trying to get them to rezone the property to make it possible for Reynolds to stay in the city of Louisville. We had company officials and public 41:00relation people drafting up the various plans and the building to go in that area, and the city officials refused to rezone the area, and as a result of that, Richmond, Virginia got our home office, which they have two beautiful buildings taking up many, many acres of ground.

MB: And employing many, many people.

MD: And we had a few of our city officials that didn't want the Reynold office building in the Anchorage area.

MB: And that's just absolutely unbelievable when over the last couple years, they've been trying this revitalizing, trying to get businesses back into Louisville and --

MD: Well, you --

MB: -- at least they're advertising it.

MD: I think that the city officials actually, by refusing to do that, lost one 42:00of the best opportunities this city ever had.

MB: Yeah, goodness' sakes.

MD: And it's just unbelievable that they can do that, but that's what they did.

MB: See, I always think in terms of not only the business that you produce out of the building, but where the employees eat, where the employees live, where they buy their products, how many people it actually employs in an area. That's phenomenal that they were willing to give that up. Is that for Richmond, Virginia?

MD: No, that's what they proposed here.

MB: Oh! And they didn't want it out in the Anchorage area?

MD: Right.

MB: Oh, that is spectacular.

MD: Here is this complete file, if you'd like to look at it. It's even where the Department of Research and the State of Kentucky tried to get them to go along with us, but they wouldn't.

MB: That's just phenomenal. Well, I wanted to ask you a couple of questions about plant number one, too, while I was thinking of it. I noticed when I've been out to the plant the last couple of weeks, it seems like they're making a remarkable effort to pick up that area --

MD: They are.

MB: -- and around the plant it's clean, it's very, very attractive looking, and it looks like they've got a good relationship with the neighbors immediately around them. It looks like there's some revitalizing going on. Do you know if the company has a policy toward that, or is that just the way the company is overall?

MD: Well, I think you'll find that the company does a lot to every place that they locate to do this, and I think it's a healthy trend. I believe that the 44:00individual plant managers have a lot to do with this. Ben, Sr., who is the present plant manager, has certainly displayed a lot of enthusiasm towards(inaudible) and done a marvelous job. Ed --

MB: Good public relations for the community, I think.

MD: Ed [Seaward?], the plant manager that preceded him, is the same -- was the same type of (inaudible), and he done a lot towards the same thing, his relations was good with the people, and we just hope that we'll continue to improve.

MB: Because I noticed that just even a block away, you can see the debris on the streets and in the yards, and you don't see that immediately surrounding the Reynolds plant, and you don't see it on the sidewalk, it doesn't look like employees have tossed their lunch bags out the door -- nothing. I was really impressed with that. You made a comment, too, about -- that you felt the 45:00neighborhood was going to pick up again, you know, that so much of the area around there has deteriorated over the years. Are you -- are you just hopeful of that, or do you think there are some signs that --

MD: No, I think I've watched the neighborhood go down to a low level, and I've noticed the improvements as it comes back to a degree in and around the plant. I'm hoping that other people will pick up the enthusiasm and do something to do it. I think that the city officials could help it if they would devote more time into it. I've not got a vendetta against the city officials.

MB: (laughs)

MD: I just think that -- it goes like many of the signs that you see in various stores, "We work hard to get a customer; we work harder to keep them." And while the city is trying to attract new businesses, they ought to be working awful 46:00hard to keep the business that they've got, and that means that a lot of attention should be devoted to the areas where these people are. You take many of the companies right now up east and everywhere else are going out into the rural areas. Many of them are moving south, because they can get ground, property, parking areas; they get -- don't run into all of the pollution problems that you do in a metropolitan city. They don't run into the parking problems. They don't run into the vandalism and everything else that we've got in the metropolitan city, and I think when you look at this, where these companies have to build their own parking lots, pave them, light them, guard them, and are challenged by every official, pollution people, and everything else -- the companies are (inaudible) and they're looking at these signs, and they're going to evaluate whether or not it's advantageous and smart money-wise 47:00to continue in the roles that they're playing in these metropolitan cities or following the trend to run away shops or -- not necessarily to run away shops but, for economy reasons, to move plants.

MB: Yeah, and you're really going to begin to weigh just how much is the grief worth.

MD: The aluminum industry has got a new challenge. We've got the environmentalists that's had to ban the cans and people that are trying to pass legislation that they don't realize can put people out of work. I think there's got to be some other way than just saying that somebody's going to ban the cans, because this means that a big part of this country's economy, and we've just got 48:00to continually fight this, and so have the companies. We just finished our contract negotiations. Our contract is not yet a month old. We finished our negotiations in Miami Beach, Florida and got another wonderful contract with a company. On the other hand, the Alcoa Company has shut down one of their extrusion plants in Cressona, Pennsylvania and have, as of the 28th day of May, they laid off approximately 650 employees. The plant is out of operation today, and they will have to retire them people under the contracts that we have, which will mean many millions of dollars to the company. Now, if they could afford to 49:00shut down plants like that, or expand other plants, or perhaps get out of the extrusion part of it, then we'd all better be looking at some preventative measures to keep it from happening elsewhere. This is a challenge that the workers have in the plant, city officials have -- it's a joint problem, and we're just going to have to work a lot closer together, or we're going to lose other operations in these big cities. I'm not a crepe-hanger, but facts are facts, and I've been around enough to see enough trends to where you've got to look at it.

MB: Yeah...crepe-hanger, that's the first time I've heard that in a long time. Well, I think that's about the end of my questions. I'm going to pursue a couple of the leads that you've given me and check with some more of the company people. I'd say it's a really interesting history.

MD: I'm going to give you a little bit more to take with you.

MB: Okay. (laughs) Thank you an awful lot.