Interview with Fred Zipp, March 13, 1978

Penny Chumbly: I'm doing an interview with Mr. Fred Zipp of Urban Renewal. My name is Penny Chumbly. And Mr. Zipp, I'd like to start out by asking you some questions about your personal history such as how long have you been in Louisville and where were you educated and what kind of education did you receive, how long have you been with Urban Renewal and how did you get the job here?

Fred Zipp: I have lived in the Louisville area all my life. Fifty-six years old, married, have a family and I live in New Albany. And I'm going to answer your last question first.

PC: OK.

FZ: I got the job through the employment agency in 1964--January, 1964 I went to 1:00work for the agency as a real estate representative. One year later was promoted to the job as Director of Real Estate which is the position I have now. In that position, I am responsible for supervising the acquisition and disposition of urban renewal properties.

So far as your questions of education, I have attended the university -- well I attended Spencerian College and graduated with a course in real estate. I attended the University of Louisville learning courses for city planning. I 2:00attended Indiana University for real estate law and real estate business. In addition to that, I have taken the basic courses sponsored by the American Institute of Real Estate Appraisers. One course is "The Basic Principles of Real Estate Appraising," one is "Appraising Income Properties," and another is--that I have taken is "Appraising Single Family Properties." In addition to that 3:00I've attended many seminars that was--that were sponsored by the National Association of Housing and Renewal Officials, the American Institute of Real Estate Appraisers, and the Society of Real Estate Appraisers. I've been in the real estate business or associated with it for 30 years. I started with the United States Steel Corporation in their Homes Division and spent 16 years with them, after which I came to work for the Urban Renewal Agency. I'm a member of the local chapter of the American Institute of Real Estate Appraisers, which 4:00is a professional society. I'm an individual member of the National Association of Housing and Renewal Officials. I am a member of the Kentucky Housing Association. I have a real estate salesman's license in the state of Indiana, and I have a broker's license pending in the state of Indiana.

PC: OK.

FZ: Now, I started with the Urban Renewal Agency in January of 1964. As a real estate representative in their field office, which was located on the corner of Magazine Street and 12th Street right across the street from the Central High 5:00School, it was my responsibility, when I first went to work for them, to supervise the acquisition of properties--which at that time, the West Downtown project was approximately 10 percent acquired. This West Downtown project was one of the three major projects downtown. This West project that I'll talk to you about--mainly because in it was the Old Walnut Street area that you are 6:00primarily interested in.

The West project was started in September 1962. It was identified as the West Downtown Urban Renewal Project, KYR-N. It contains 316 acres from 6th Street to 15th Street, Market Street to

Broadway. There were, in this entire project, one thousand one hundred and thirty-nine properties acquired at a cost of over twenty-three million dollars.

PC: OK.

FZ: In these properties, we relocated 998 families and 687 businesses. Total relocation cost: over one million six-hundred and fifty-thousand dollars. On the properties that we acquired there were 1394 structures which were razed. Only 18 8:00were considered "rehab-able." After the properties were razed, we re-plotted the area according to the urban renewal plan and had for sale 185 acres of land in the various zoning classifications. At this date, over 85 percent of that land has sold for private re-development and it's back on the tax rolls.

PC: OK.

FZ: Old Walnut Street was a very interesting street to me, also. Because when I 9:00first went to work for the agency, most of the properties were still to be acquired along Walnut Street, and therefore I was responsible for buying them. It was quite a mixture of apartments, small businesses, upstairs rooms, outdoor privies [Chumbly chuckles in acknowledgment] and -- in many instances -- buildings that were near collapse. Although it didn't seem that way when you looked at them from the street. The foundations were crumbling, cellars were caving in, and these were found when the surveys were made to establish the 10:00Urban Renewal Project. In my way, the-- some of the conditions that people were living in were--they were sad, and when they were relocated, we assured them that they would be moved to standard quarters, which is where they would move. Many of the small businesses did not move, they liquidated their businesses. Some of them did move, some were successful in their move, some of them were not. To point out any particular business which was successful, I hesitate to say--

PC: [exhales] OK...

FZ: --because of the impact it may have on one person or another who may hear this. Black businesses were small and most--and many of them--not most of them--many of them liquidated their business.

PC: OK, could you state in--just in your own words--what you conceived the goal of urban renewal to be.

FZ: First of all, I need to tell you most people fail to realize what is urban renewal. Urban renewal is not a ball to knock down houses or to hurt anyone. Urban renewal projects were designed--were initiated--under the Kennedy administration. They--an urban renewal project is a tool of the city to help itself. An urban renewal project is usually handled, like us, through an agency set up by the city to expend federal funds under the various programs. To expend these funds, it is necessary to have a project area completely... planned. After 13:00the city administra--the city Board of Alderman--approve a project area, planning, monies is applied for, and when received, the various consultants begin to investigate the area, as to the condition of buildings, number of families, approximate cost to acquire properties, raze them and redevelop the area.

This also includes the re-installation of all regular utilities, streets, sidewalks, street lighting,

street signaling, telephone service for an area. And obviously you can't see it from this tape, but you may verify this if you look out my window. You do not see in the West downtown area here any overhead telephone lines or electric wires except streetlights.

PC: Right, uh huh.

FZ: Everything is underground. PC: Hmm.

FZ: So most people have...don't see these things unless its pointed out to them sometime. PC: Yes, that's true.

FZ: And I think it's really accepted fact that most people put up with the inconvenience as we had for several years ago when most of the major streets were torn up and then put back. And then, what had happened? New sewers, new storm sewers, new underground utilities were all installed. But easily forgotten because you can't see them. I don't know whether I'm touching on the subject that you really want to know.

PC: You're doing...that's fine. You did mention that part of the condition of the area was that the buildings were very rundown even though they did not appear to be on the outside. Could you say why they were so--in such bad state?

FZ: Yes, I think it was from years of lack of maintenance and just plain age of the buildings. PC: Uh huh...how old was the area?

FZ: [coughs] I believe the...the buildings ranged from forty to eighty years old...some older than that. There were very few forty-year-old buildings, and they were considered the newer buildings.

PC: Uh huh, right. Could you elaborate on some of the problems that were encountered in the renewal project?

FZ: Of course, the major problem in the renewal project is the acceptance of the 17:00project itself by the individuals. These are the people that are directly affected, as opposed to the people's representative to the Board of Alderman who had to make a decision for the project as to its effect on the city as a whole. Many people obviously were upset because when they had to move, because of their income, they could not afford it. Yet after the relocation 18:00program became effective, the majority of the people were moved to standard buildings--homes, residences, businesses--which was to their advantage.

And... interesting little story...

PC: [chuckles in acknowledgement] OK.

FZ: One of the relocation advisors was telling me one day about a family that moved, that she had help move from the area. They were living in an upstairs apartment such as it was. A family of six in three rooms with no facilities 19:00other than the, as I mentioned before, an outdoor privy.

There was no bath and baths were taken in the kitchen sink. The family was moved to a standard structure. For the first time, for perhaps the first time in their life, they had a bathroom. They also had proper heating. As part of her job, after the family was moved, she followed through to see how they were doing. And then while inspecting the place, she told me how amazed she was that this 20:00apartment had a wood-burning stove--which was acceptable, because it was standard, but she didn't find any fuel, and the family--trying to keep the place neat--had very successfully used the bathtub to store their wood.

PC: [laughs] Oh no.

FZ: Which was never used, apparently, for the bath as it was designed. They were still using the kitchen sink.

PC: Hmmm...That's amazing.

FZ: It's--the purpose of this story is not to call attention to any misgivings that people may have. But it is true, people have to learn to enjoy 21:00the things that they could have but had never had in their life which is one of the most depressive and perhaps saddest things, as far as I was concerned.

PC: I can understand that. Well, how long did it take to do the West Downtown renewal project? FZ: It started in 1962 and we closed the project in September 1978.

PC: Just very recently--it will be very recently. Well, this is more of an 22:00opinion kind of question. What do you see was the project's contribution to the city of Louisville? We've skirted on this subject but...

FZ: Here again, the urban renewal process--because it is a process--where the city can help itself. Without the benefit of the exact figures in front of me, although they have been compiled, we have taken a sample of downtown city blocks and calculated the real estate taxes paid. It was probably before the urban renewal project was conceived, and we have taken those same blocks after the 23:00project was redeveloped into new buildings and found a nearly two-hundred percent increase in the tax base. Which means that services--public services--that were required to service the area before could now be shifted to other portions of the city. This is the biggest development that you may have been aware of.

The west downtown area was divided into sections. The section in which we're in is called the Civic Center which now has the courts complex and other buildings. 24:00This corridor from here to Broadway, from Market Street to Broadway, Sixth to Seventh, also houses the Federal Building, South Central Bell's headquarters, a post office--and the state office building, which is a continuation of the Civic Center. Adjacent to the Civic Center we have a high rise for the elderly and residential areas with over one thousand units of housing. From 13th to 15th is known as the industrial corridor which is nearly ninety-percent developed. With 25:00these three items I believe I have explained the benefit to the city.

PC: Right. OK. I believe so, too. Were there any specific people that were outside the urban renewal agency with whom you worked on the West Downtown renewal project?

FZ: Of course, the process of buying properties and having them appraised, we depended upon hiring qualified and professional people--these were outside 26:00people, independent of any government action. And yes, we did hire professional appraisers, local appraisers as well as out of town, local real estate men to negotiate with property owners, title companies to insure proper titles of land, expert planners and consultants who provided us with market studies in planned reuse areas. These were the type of people who were outside.

PC: What other agencies within city or county government did you work?

FZ: Very closely with Housing, because through them we were able to provide many standard structures for families and individuals that were relocated. And of course, we are in constant communication with the Department of HUD--Housing and Urban Development. The regional office used to be--when we first started--in the city of Atlanta but it has moved into individual state offices and the local offices at 12th and Chestnut Street.

PC: Do you see that the role of urban renewal has changed since the 1960s when this project was first started?

FZ: Yes, as with everything else in the 1960s it was a new business, and from experience you learn many things. And from experiences and continued monitoring of the programs by the department of HUD, new rules and regulations were established. One that I know was most beneficial to all projects was the Uniform Acquisition and Relocation Act, passed by Congress, which provided for a much 29:00greater benefit to those who were moved--had to be moved. Other procedures established by the department of HUD, relaxing some of their regulations in the disposition of lands has been most helpful in redevelopment.

PC: How, if in any way, has the trend towards preservation of buildings affected urban renewal? We hear and see of this a lot in Louisville--in the old Louisville area, that people are attempting to preserve buildings instead of 30:00tear them down.

FZ: Well, unlike many people think about urban renewal as the person who that tears down buildings, or razes the structures--this is far from the truth. We have more desire and more mechanics to save old buildings than most all agencies. Our projects are conceived and studied. We can only do what the people--through their representatives--the Board of Alderman, the Planning Commission--want [tape goes silent for a few seconds].

We had public hearings to the effect that people could be heard. Then the 31:00project was planned and as all good projects, the hindsight is always better than the foresight. So that now with the people's new interest--newer interest--in the older buildings there is a definite change in the urban renewal project and community development grants.

We have assisted many people in the University of Louisville area in rehabilitating their older homes by lending, through the Department of HUD, monies, under what is known as the 312 Rehabilitation Program.

PC: Well do you see that this trend will be a continuing trend? FZ: Yes, definitely--no question. And I'm all for it.

PC: Well, good. For what reasons?

FZ: For the simple reason that it has finally become necessary that we spend monies to rehab residential units downtown--or near town--rather than spreading out over the counties as the trend has been.

PC: What kinds of controversies, if any, were there that surrounded the West 33:00Downtown renewal project? Within your agency or within city or county government, or within private citizens groups?

FZ: Really, I can't recall any real controversies. I assumed... one of the biggest that effected all projects in the entire city--and it affected this project--was the... discontent, and perhaps some of the raging fires that we saw in the West End of Louisville a few years ago. My experience has been that this 34:00caused an economic regression, especially along Broadway. But since then, this trend has changed, and I feel that there was a lesson learned that we should all appreciate.

PC: And that is?

FZ: This is a free country.

PC: [exhales] OK. Did the work of urban renewal or its goals change any under the different mayoral administrations from 1962-now, 1978.

FZ: Basically, I don't believe that they've changed from the original project, as it was conceived -- yet each administration had its particular input because of the changing Board of Aldermen representatives.

PC: Could you be more specific?

FZ: Yes, because the original project was designed to be divided into specific 36:00land use categories which over the years obviously changed with people's attitudes and the market demand for real estate. To change these categories, it would be necessary to go through the Board of Alderman as well as the mayor's office, and the planning and zoning commission wherein there were controversy about the intended reuse of land. Thankfully, this has all been worked out to satisfaction regardless of which administration was in power.

PC: OK, well, then, could you say that each administration had a different 37:00attitude towards the project?

FZ: Yes, and I'm thankful to say that each were progressive. PC: [exhales] Well, how would you define progressive?

FZ: Progressive as to recognizing the fact that there is quite an investment by the federal government in these downtown projects and they pledged continuing efforts to redevelopment as it was proposed.

PC: You've talked about the effects that the project did have on the Black community in terms of economics and just initial reaction to being relocated. Can you think of any other effects that the project did have on the Black community in that area?

FZ: It seems when you drive through the area--west on Walnut Street and you get to 15th--that what we've done is move the Black community--and believe me I don't like to use the words "Black community" any more than I do "white community" --but it seems as if the black community is just shifting, further westward. Again, I believe--just from outward appearance, same as the buildings--many of the properties that people shifted into we guaranteed them to 39:00be standard properties--when they moved into them. But going back to my story about the family-- how do you educate a person to continually maintain the property properly? We've stepped up a little each time. As to how--whether it effected the Black community... it cannot be confined to just calling it the 40:00Black community. I prefer to call it the West End of Louisville, the South End of Louisville. Because each person has their own right, or what they choose--many of them did and many of them found standard homes. Many of them have improved their standard of living. Unfortunately, there are a few that hadn't. But again, I can't... define it as a Black or white what have you [inaudible]. It happens to all of us. In general, I think it has improved.

PC: OK. Outside of the Board of Aldermen, were there any other commissions or 41:00boards that controlled the work of urban renewal.

FZ: Ahh, yes. I'm sorry. The Urban Renewal agency is controlled by what is known as a Board of Commissioners. The Board of Commissioners are appointed by the mayor and the county judge. It is--since they are appointed by the mayor or judge in office, obviously, the commissioners would be orientated to that political administration. The decisions where all of the redevelopment and the spending of monies was made by the Board of Commissioners.

PC: Well, as the administrations have changed, people within the Board of Commissioners I'm sure has changed. Would you say that their attitude has grown more progressive as the Board of Alderman and mayoral administrations have grown--

FZ: [interrupts] --very definitely PC: --progressive?

FZ: Very definitely they have gone right along with the administration as things are proposed, they have made the necessary decisions. Our Board of Commissioners along with what is known, what was known, as the Riverfront Commission--coordinated activities that resulted in

over 170 million dollars worth of new development on the Riverfront--which was 43:00an urban renewal project, incidentally. But that gets us away from Walnut Street.

PC: OK, what kind of federal or state laws govern the work of urban renewal?

FZ: The federal laws is all through the Department of Housing and Urban Development and it is a manual which covers about three books, passed by the Congress of the United States, which has changed, sometimes. For instance, it has evolved from an urban renewal categorical grant program to what is known today as revenue-sharing or grants to communities under the Community Development Act. State laws, we are governed by the Kentucky Revised Statutes.

Local laws, those are established through the Board of Alderman, the Planning and Zoning Commission, and from the real estate end, those that are accepted under the real estate rules authorization.

PC: I believe I've touched on this question once before, but did any specific community organizations help in the work of urban renewal within that area or outside of the Walnut Street area?

FZ: I don't remember any particular organization and I don't want to step on anyone's toes--that I worked with, perhaps someone else in this agency did, and I'm sure that there were--yes, there were organizations outside of the Walnut Street area. There were groups of citizens who worked together to help advise the agency in matters. Also, to help coordinate the activities within the community--neighborhood organizations, I guess, is what you call them. But to be specific, I prefer not to be, and I don't remember, then if i do remember i may 46:00commit some....

PC: Okay. That's fine. [tape turns off and back on]

FZ: You have asked specifically about the Old Walnut Street area, and I think that's very interesting in that I remember there was a young lady here recently who copied all my pictures from the appraisals along Walnut Street. And after she did her project, there seemed to be a lot of interest in Old Walnut Street. And, like you, I think she even interviewed prisoners who used to live on Walnut 47:00Street and now have their new home. And remembered some of the nightclubs and so forth along the street. I suppose the most impressive building, to me--the one that has a lot of history and it was controversial when we had to raze the building, was the old Central High School.

PC: Huh.

FZ: One particular, building along Old Walnut Street, was The Little Sisters of 48:00the Poor. And I particularly remember working with them during the expansion of their facility.

And, with that, I have a lot of memories, but--and they're all good. PC: Well, that's good

FZ: --and I appreciate you coming.

PC: Thank you very much, Mr. Zipp. As I mentioned before, this is March 13th, 1978, and this is Mr. Fred Zipp. Thank you again.