Interview with Helen Helman, June 22, 1978

Ken Chumbley:

Testing, testing, testing, testing. This is Ken Chumbley from the University of Louisville archives. It's June 22, 1978, and I'm interviewing this morning, Mrs. Helen Helman as part of our Jewish oral history project. To begin, Mrs. Hellman, will you just tell me a bit about where you were born, what part of town, early recollections?

Helen Helman:

I was born August the 23rd, 1912 on East Walnut Street and...

K.C.:

Okay. Was that community called Jerusalem or New Jerusalem or did it have a name?

H.H.:

Not to my knowledge.K.C.:

Was that the part of town where most Jews lived?

H.H.:

Yes. It was centralized between there and Madison Street. Some lived on Jefferson Street. In that area. There were a few who lived in the West End. There was a small settlement of Jewish people in the West End, but for the most part they lived around Franklin, Madison, in that area.

K.C.:

What was the neighborhood like? Was it middle class? Affluent?

H.H.:

I'm sorry, I can't remember that far back. It was in walking proximity of, at 1:00that time, the congregation that they had there. There was one at the ... Is this what you want?

K.C.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

H.H.:

B'nai Jacob congregation was over on Jefferson Street between Preston and Jackson. There was another congregation at ... At that time, I believe it was called either Liberty Street or Fehr Avenue. I guess it's Fehr Avenue now it's-

K.C.:

It was Fehr.

H.H.:

...back there?

K.C.:

Oh, no, I'm sure it isn't, but I recall.

H.H.:

Well, that's where it was. There was another congregation there called the Hadmedresh Hagodol or something like that. Those two congregations merged in about 19- either '29 or '28 or '30, and they became what is now the Keneseth Israel congregation over on Taylorsville Road.

K.C.:

Right.

H.H.:

They built at Floyd and Jacob and then from there they moved out onto Taylorsville Road. That's the one with the pretty Chagall's type thing. There 2:00was a small congregation out in the West End, but I can't recall the name of that one, which has abandoned. It's no longer in existence. There was the reformed Temple on Third Street over there, but they just sold and they've merged. The two reformed congregations, Brith Sholom and Adath Israel have merged and now they're building out on Brownsboro Road.

K.C.:

I see.

H.H.:

And, across from the Glenview East.

K.C.:

Which congregation were you a part of?

H.H.:

We belong to two. My grandfather was one of the founders of that B'nai Jacob that I was telling you and my husband's family belonged to the Anshei Sfard. But we belong to the Anshei Sfard and the Adath Jeshurun.

K.C.:

And these were reformed or-

H.H.:

No, they're orthodox.

K.C.:

Orthodox?

H.H.:

But, Adath Jeshurun is conservative.

K.C.:

Are you still a part of the-

H.H.:

We belong to both.

K.C.:

And, again, one is conservative and the other is-

H.H.:

The other is orthodox.

K.C.:

Is that difficult, being part of both?

H.H.:

No, I graduated Sunday school from Adath Jeshurun. See, my folks belonged to two of them, too. I don't know why we belonged to two, but we do.

K.C.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Will you say something about your family? It was called the Seagull family, right?

H.H.:

That's right.

K.C.:

And, they had a fish market or something?

H.H.:

My father had a fish market. My grandfather came here either during, or right after the Civil War.

K.C.:

From where?

H.H.:

From Kiev, Russia. And, of course, in those days, when you were 14 you went in the Tsar's army for seven years, and they put the children... I can't imagine such a thing, I am sure it's their region, whatever the best way. He came here and they said at that time they were trying to populate the Midwest and he went out to Milwaukee and he didn't like it. He came back here to Louisville and they were married here. My grandmother and grandfather were married here.

K.C.:

What was your grandmother's name?

H.H.:

Kaddish. I think it was K-A-D-D-I-S-H. She had no family here at all.

K.C.:

Where was she from?

H.H.:

She came from Kiev, too. Russia.

K.C.:

Were they orthodox or?

H.H.:

Yes. But, they were not the whole, whole, you know?

K.C.:

Yeah.

H.H.:

I assume it was the kosher house and kosher food. In those days it was so easy. And the butcher shop, you walked in and all that sort of thing.

K.C.:

Do you remember him well?

H.H.:

Yeah. I have pictures of him there. Yes, I remember him very well.

K.C.:

Did he tell you anything about his experiences?

H.H.:

Well he came here-

K.C.:

...over maybe in Russia?

H.H.:

He said when he came here, he worked his way up. He said his biggest problem were the farmer's dogs. They used to drive him crazy, because he used to come and ... You know, when you traveled, you didn't stop at the Holiday Inn in those days.

K.C.:

Yeah.

H.H.:

And, they'd go to a farmer and they'd ask to spend the night or maybe do some chores for him. I don't remember, it's been quite a while since he passed away. 5:00And he worked his way here to Louisville and he bought some property on Jefferson Street, which he owned for about 75 years. The urban renewal came and knocked it down. And he built ... At that time, it was residential strictly and he made a commercial out of it, sellers and rentals, and a great number of people came to Louisville, always came to his place, the Jewish people came and so he rented them apartments and things like that. In fact, Mr. Sam Fein, I think his father and mother, when they came to Louisville, stayed at our place. I think they called it Castle Gardens or Seagull Gardens or some-

K.C.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). So, it was kind of an apartment building?

H.H.:

Well, I'll hardly call it apartments. Rooms.

K.C.:

Oh.

H.H.:

It was cold water, ice, I'm sure.

K.C.:

Yeah.

H.H.:

And possibly, probably, I'm sure, outside plumbing back then. And we held on to that property all those years and my father had a fish market there, and he died 6:00and I suppose that was the end of that and then urban renewal came and took it all.

K.C.:

What do you suppose business was like for him early then? Did he have a difficult time making it?

H.H.:

I really don't know.

K.C.:

You know, today's small businesses.

H.H.:

Well, things were a lot different then. At one time he was in the produce business and he had, I don't know how many hundreds of thousands or how many hundreds of pounds of potatoes he was in, and he did a lot of real estate. When he died, we had ... Well, we had a place over on Madison Street, two houses on Jackson. See, that's what they did, land was very precious to people who had never had any. Russian Jews were not allowed to own land, and most of them came here. When you had a piece of land, you were ready. And-

K.C.:

Was it expensive then, the land?

H.H.:

Well, I don't know. I know he paid $7500. So, he owned from 307 ... No, I think 7:00he paid more than that. 307, so, 313. Now, how many pieces is that? Seven, nine, 11 ... About four pieces. I think it's 750. I'm not sure what he paid on it. But-

K.C.:

Did he come with money or did he make the money from his?

H.H.:

14 years old? Well he just-

K.C.:

He just worked his-

H.H.:

He sweated it out.

K.C.:

Yeah.

H.H.:

See, he was one of the first ... You know, you have $10, you bought a house with it. Well, I'm using that as a small example. You had a $100, you bought a house, but you know, if you had another 100 you wouldn't pay off on that house, you bought another house for 100. And in that way you started to build up. And of course, to them, owning a piece of property was really being the top of the heap, because they were never allowed to own property.

K.C.:

Did your grandmother work with him at the fish market?

H.H.:

No. My grandfather didn't have a fish market. My father had the fish market.

K.C.:

Father had the fish market. Okay, did your mother work with your father in the 8:00fish market?

H.H.:

No, I did.

K.C.:

You did.

H.H.:

I did. I don't know anything about meat, but I could tell you pretty much about a-

K.C.:

About fish.

H.H.:

Well, in those days, you know, we used to go get on the horse and wagon to the fishing farm, and that's gone now. And this was a fairly good area for fishing. People made a living that way. Now, we'd go down in the morning and we'd fool around there, and we'd go up on what remained of Corn Island at that time, at least that's what they told me, and Jim Porter was supposed to live down there. Have you ever heard of Jim Porter?

K.C.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

H.H.:

Okay. Jim Porter was his name back then.

K.C.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

H.H.:

And, we'd sit there and the men would go out in these boat, skiff, whatever, and stay in the river and they would play. There was jack salmon in the river, we had river perch, we had ... Really, everything was alive; buffalo, shovel fish, spoonbill, cats ... all kinds of catfish and things like that. Well, that whole industry is gone. That's gone.

K.C.:

So, it isn't as it is today, bringing the meat or the fish in?

H.H.:

Oh no, we haven't got anything. There's no fresh fish around here at all. None at all.

K.C.:

Were you the only child in the family?

H.H.:

No, I was the oldest. There were three girls and a boy. You know my brother, Herb Seagull?

K.C.:

I've heard the name.

H.H.:

Well, that's my brother.

K.C.:

Yeah.

H.H.:

One sister's passed away and then I have another sister.

K.C.:

Did [crosstalk 00:09:21] they all fish down here with you?

H.H.:

No, nobody [crosstalk 00:09:24] anything.

K.C.:

You were the only one?

H.H.:

Well, they were babies. I was the big one. No, I never fished. I do like to fish though, but I just rode down with them to pick up the catch, I never did any fishing. The men did the fishing. My father never fished in his life.

K.C.:

Where did you go to school?

H.H.:

I went to school here at [inaudible 00:09:45].

K.C.:

All the way from grammar school to secondary?

H.H.:

Right, I went to Atherton. I went through there for a little while and got married and worked. I went to work. I was doing it during the depression.

K.C.:

Okay, will you talk some about the depression and it's effects?

H.H.:

Well, during the depression ... Yeah, things were rough. I worked for ten hours a week, two nights a week and every other Sunday at the Jewish Community Center. 10:00But that time it was the old YMHA, at 2nd and Jacob, and I worked there until I married. That's the only job I ever had.

K.C.:

What did you do there?

H.H.:

Everything. I typed, and I ran the stencils, and gave out the keys to the locker room, and dusted and, you know, that's everything. You know, office work, filing and stuff like that.

K.C.:

So the depression was hard on just about everybody?

H.H.:

It was hard on everybody. In fact, even the $10 a week at that time, they couldn't pay that. And the janitors always got their money first, and there were many weeks that we held up our $10 salaries for two weeks and don't cash your checks. We got the checks, but we weren't allowed to cash them, because there wasn't any money in the bank.

K.C.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). How did you manage to get by?

H.H.:

Oh, I lived at home. I never paid any board or anything. I mean, we all just did the best we could.

K.C.:

Yeah. What kind of effects did it have on your father and his market there?

H.H.:

It didn't bother him and he is always a satisfied person. I mean, you did the best you could, we never went hungry, we never went barefooted or anything like that. Well, when you're young it's just a different ball game. I have tried to be the person that never wants anything that I couldn't afford to pay for, and that's not the way the economy is based today, it's a different story. It's a different world. But we had a good time, and if you went out on a date and we always got more than a coke and a slim thing of potato chips, you were out, because the guys didn't have anything either. They had nothing.

K.C.:

Was this after, or during high school, or before high school?

H.H.:

It was during high school, and at the time I was working, I was out of high school.

K.C.:

There was no pressure to drop out of high school or anything?

H.H.:

No, I was 16 when I graduated and went to UofL for a whole half a semester and I 12:00got a job.

K.C.:

Did you find that in the Jewish community there was a push...there was a difference between the men and the women? The parents or family push the men to do other things?

H.H.:

I didn't find that, but at that time before Hitler, the Jewish community was divided, in my opinion, and separate [inaudible 00:12:34] really into congregations. Now when I say that, the reform were the more educated, the more affluent. They came from Germany and the opportunities over there were far greater than they were in Russia, and they did not mix. When I say mix, I mean date, intermarriage, and that sort of thing.

K.C.:

How did the rest of the Jews feel about that?

H.H.:

Of course, they didn't bother me, but they always felt ... And they were more cultured, I would say, and more educated, in the worldly sense, than those who 13:00came from Eastern Europe.

K.C.:

Was there any kind of overt discrimination or?

H.H.:

What do you mean, discrimination? They bought unkosher food, and ... You see, it was small and you walked wherever you wanted to go, it isn't like today. I think we walked downtown to the picture show, we walked to Sunday school, all these things. But the town is all spread out, it's a different day. But after Hitler and what happened there, I think the Holocaust was a horrible, horrible, dreadful thing, but it did, in my opinion, bring all Jews much closer together than they were before.

K.C.:

Okay. I'd like you to talk some more about pre-World War II experiences and World War II experiences. I've done some research and came upon a man and woman, 14:00non-Jews, of course, called the [Beaudenchance's 00:14:14], who were [crosstalk 00:14:20]. Do you have any recollections of them? I understand Mrs. Beaudenchance spoke on the radio, I don't know whether it was an antisemitic speech, but she spoke.

H.H.:

Did they have a little corner shop or leather goods place over on Market Street? Brook and Market, 1st and Market, somewhere there? I remember the name, I remember that they lived up here in either of these high rises over there. I never came in contact with her personally, but I knew that they were supposedly antisemitic.

K.C.:

How much antisemitism was there?

H.H.:

I beg your pardon?

K.C.:

How much antisemitism was there in Louisville? How much experience did you have with it?

H.H.:

I didn't have any that I recall. When you're that young you don't look for 15:00things like that. You understand what I mean?

K.C.:

It must've ... It just comes out.

H.H.:

That's right, that's right.

K.C.:

Did you see any of the antisemitic literature that was around? If you didn't speak German you couldn't read German and you couldn't read the-

H.H.:

Oh, I can understand a little bit. I catch a word here and there, but you see, I never dated non-Jewish boys. So, you see, I was not subjected, I stayed within our own group.

K.C.:

Was it an isolated community in a sense?

H.H.:

No, we used to go to the ... the [inaudible 00:15:44] school used to have dances and of course, we'd meet non-Jewish boys, but I would never, never date a non-Jewish boy. That was it, and there were some that were most attractive, I'll tell you.

K.C.:

Did you feel as if there were family pressure against that or just-

H.H.:

No. I didn't want to get involved, because, you know, you can fall in love with 16:00a little puppy or anybody else and its very simple and very easy and I just wasn't going to ... I just wasn't going to do it.

K.C.:

So, you say, before World War II, and before Hitler, there, the Jewish community was in a sense, separate? But after World War II , or during World War II, it was-

H.H.:

Well, I think it was shown it didn't matter what you were, orthodox or reformed or whatever. Whether you kept a kosher house or you adhered to the laws of Moses or whatever, he said you're a Jew whether you've got one drop of blood in you or not, and I think that's what brought them closer together.

K.C.:

In the Jewish community, what kind of indications did you have from Germany that this was going on? What was the news from Germany?

H.H.:

There was no news from Germany.

K.C.:

Did many-

H.H.:

Well, there was. I'm wrong there. Hitler came when? In-

K.C.:

'33.

H.H.:

'33. Around '37, '38, I guess, there were those who were smart enough to get out, came over here. You know, you came, and a lot of them came with worldly goods, which they tried to convert, and did. And there were quite a few families who came here to Louisville. The [Levi 00:17:23] family brought a number of people over. Mr. Morris, Charles Morris, a very outstanding and loving man, they brought people over, and there were quite a few who were affluent enough. I think some living here in Louisville now that came over at that period. The Vehr family, V-E-H-R, and I think they had [inaudible 00:17:42] first. There was a Mrs. ... Her name was [Hirsch 00:17:45], its now [Laury 00:17:46], I think.

H.H.:

She came over. There are quite a few that came over, because they were smart enough to get out. They had an opportunity to get out and a lot of them couldn't take everything out, but they fled for their lives, they came over.

K.C.:

Did you talk with any of them?

H.H.:

Yeah. When the thing got to where it was. Yes, I've talked with many of them. 18:00Some of them are my friends now that still live here that came over during that period.

K.C.:

What were their comments on Hitler?

H.H.:

Well, they didn't like it. They liked their own style of life, they were very comfortable where they were, they had every advantage before that and you know, home is home. I don't care where you live, it's where your roots are based. But they're glad to be out of there and be here, you know, after all that happened.

K.C.:

When Jews in Louisville, when American Jews learned of what was happening in Germany, either from the newspaper or from people who escaped, was there this 19:00massive feeling of indignation and-

H.H.:

I don't think they really believed what was happening over there. I mean, I think it's fair to the imagination. You saw Holocaust. I don't know, have you watched it?

K.C.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

H.H.:

People just didn't believe it. They did not believe it.

K.C.:

The big lie. If you tell a lie that's big enough.

H.H.:

They never thought it was going to happen. They thought they were people that were influential and in government, they were wealthy, not all of them, not everybody's wealthy, even in America. They just didn't believe it was going to happen to them. I never could understand why ... There were six million people allowed to get up and leave ... fight your way back, but they kept ... I don't know what happened. They were just like ... I don't know. But yes, I watched The Holocaust, I just still could not grasp it.

K.C.:

What do you think the American Jews were feeling? What did you feel at the time?

H.H.:

I didn't know really until after, when the people had escaped. There's the tattoos on their arms and all the numbers on their arms. I don't think I really realized what really was going on.

K.C.:

Well, I'm wondering whether in Louisville, among Jews, native born Jews, whether there was a kind of crusading spirit or kind of patriotic spirit to go and kill Germans?

H.H.:

The government here, there was not one concentration camp that was bombed during the entire war. They knew [inaudible 00:20:31] past. Churchill, Stalin, of course they went through it, and Roosevelt knew what was going on. There were feelers out for a certain number of trucks or whatever, work with them. They would say, "Give them 10,000 Jews," they didn't care. They did not care and I really don't believe the world cares today.

K.C.:

So, you don't think the American government especially cared-

H.H.:

Well, they had their hands filled, too, now. Don't forget, they were fighting here, too. I mean, first things first, I assume was what their outlook was, and rightfully so, I suppose. But they didn't care what was going on over there. They had to know. There's no way that anyone will convince me that they did not 21:00know those crematories were going on. There is nothing that will convince me of that. They didn't care, and I don't think the American Jewish community really realized what happened. I won't say there weren't some that did, but nobody left it if they were in ... There were not only Jews, look what they've done to the Gypsies and the Catholics. I mean, it's just unbelievable that the world didn't care about any of these people.

K.C.:

They didn't know enough to care.

H.H.:

They knew to a degree, but the mind ... I don't think it's going to see [crosstalk 00:21:48].

K.C.:

So once World War II came, you don't recall of any kind of patriotic spirit or fervor, or [crosstalk 00:21:58] the Jews wanting to-

H.H.:

Not like we have now when Israel was attacked in the Six Day War - no. You're forgetting that I was in my early 20's, raising two children, et cetera, et 22:00cetera. So, you know, it was different. No, not the upsurge and the [inaudible 00:22:13] merge on [inaudible 00:22:14] and all this - no. To my knowledge, to my knowledge, it was a united community in that sense, because when they started a conference of Jewish Organizations, which is now the Federation, that was the beginning of putting things together, there was a Jewish Social Service agency. Which [inaudible 00:22:35] at that time the Community Chest. We had one Hebrew school here and don't forget, the people that had the money were the reform and these others, or the peasants, call them what you want, and there was not this feeling of togetherness that I think I know we have today.

K.C.:

So actually, I guess World War II then did bring some unity.

H.H.:

Well, I guess there's always rhyme and reason to everything, but in my feeling, it brought the Louisville Jewish community, and I'm sure communities all over the world, together.

K.C.:

There was a small group, I think, of the German American [inaudible 00:23:13] here in Louisville.

H.H.:

That's right.

K.C.:

The antisemitic group, the Nazi group. Do you recall anything about that group?

H.H.:

No, the only thing I remember; I was a little girl, beside me was the Ku Klux Klan, when President Harding died, there was some town members about yey big, and we rode out one night. The Klan burned a cross for him, and I think that frightened me more than anything I ever saw in my life. One of the things. That was the first thing ... You were just recalling about antisemitism, they put that cross up there and they burned it right in Jeffersontown where that traffic light is. That I remember. That night, I remember going forward and we went out to sit with the mob. But that's all I remember about the Klan. The Klan was pretty strong there too, and especially in Indiana.

K.C.:

Both when you were a child and then later during World War II or-

H.H.:

With the Klan, I think, well, I guess, was my first feeling of antisemitism, now that I think back.

K.C.:

Were there antisemitic speeches and all or were there things in the press or?

H.H.:

I really don't know. I don't recall anything of that degree, but I ... Well, I had a couple that had a little story. A couple in Indiana; the Klan ran them out of there, and there was quite a bit of strong feeling. The Klan, I think, was my first recollection of antisemitism, now that I think about it.

K.C.:

You think it's still with us?

H.H.:

Oh yeah, I think there's a lot of antisemitism.

K.C.:

How so? You think people still have a stereotypical Jew in mind?

H.H.:

Yeah, I think when it gets down to the nitty gritty, they do. See, I feel ... I'm trying to feel, that the Jew, when they say the chosen people, chosen for what? And I do think they are chosen. I feel - and this is personal - bare the 25:00consciousness of the world. I really do. And if you're really strong about Judaism, and I don't. I was at one time. If you can live according to the [inaudible 00:25:18], you are the conscience. I really mean that.

K.C.:

Now, just for a bit, if you could tell me a bit about your work in the Jewish community. You married an attorney who was president, who still is president of Four Courts.

H.H.:

Right.

K.C.:

Will you talk some about Four Courts, its history, as you can recall?

H.H.:

Okay. It started out ... There was a survey made by the Jewish Special Service Agency to ascertain whether there was a need or not for the home, and there was once even an attempt of a group of women who started a home over on Chestnut Street, I believe near the Jewish hospital. And they did not have the know how, 26:00there was [inaudible 00:26:14] and [inaudible 00:26:15] and they were sincere. They start taking in few people. There was no supervision, there was no casework done or anything else - it folded. Then, I think, that's when the Jewish Social Service Agency went in and they made the survey. I don't know how they put the cart before the heart. Anyway, they found they ... They decided there was a need for it.

H.H.:

So, they searched around, searched around, and they bought the ... Are any of the [inaudible 00:26:38] still closed?

K.C.:

I picked my wife up there once.

H.H.:

Is she working?

K.C.:

No. [interview cuts off 00:26:43]

K.C.:

Four Courts and its history.

H.H.:

Well, they bought the [Merryn Taylor 00:26:53] and [Leland Taylor 00:26:55] estate over there in Cherokee Park, 14 acres and a big house, and think they paid $60,000 for that whole thing. And, at the time, it was a farm ... I don't know, it was either a home or a [inaudible 00:27:11]. Now, we took no one in. We 27:00converted the house. It was a big house. I think there was 10 or 12 bedrooms there. We partitioned some of them off and we renovated it, and at the time I opened, they only took people who were ambulant; people who could take care of themselves, feed themselves, [inaudible 00:27:29] themselves. More of a personal care than what it is now; going to the movies, even that's been the trend.

H.H.:

And I think we opened with about five or six to begin with, and we had a director, and we had a woman that did the cooking and we had ... You know, just some things like that. Now, at the time we opened, Dr. Joseph Rau, who was the rabbi of Adath Israel, was against it.

K.C.:

Why?

H.H.:

He didn't believe in it, I think, but in later years he changed his mind 28:00completely, and in fact, he left part of his estate to Four Courts. But it worked out, and then they had a director here and they went on that way. Of course, that was the days before Medicaid, and they were carrying on with other things. And they obviously learned [inaudible 00:28:30] inspection. [inaudible 00:28:32] Seagull came, "Oh, what are you going to do with them?" I mean, they might be ambulant today, and five years from now, the body deteriorates. So, that's when they added all the others.

K.C.:

Okay. You said the home was purchased for $60,000. How was the money raised?

H.H.:

Through public funds.

K.C.:

Was there a good response for you?

H.H.:

Oh, wonderful. The house was almost paid for before they ... They had the money 29:00before they ... It went through Four Courts, and then the major thing with places called the Four Courts, they went to Four Courts. There were people that did not want that home in that area. I mean, it's a very fine area, still is, but they thought there might be ambulances or a lot of traffic and a lot going on, and they didn't need it. And it went through...my husband took it all the way to the court of appeals. I had to [inaudible 00:29:24] resold. You see, you had to have [inaudible 00:29:25] for that.

H.H.:

Now, you could put a school there or various other things, but you could not put a nursing home. It went through a great deal of litigation before we finally [inaudible 00:29:38].

K.C.:

And that was when?

H.H.:

Golly, I don't know. 19- I guess '45, '46, I don't know. I've got papers if you want to go read them?

K.C.:

No. [crosstalk 00:29:50] How many persons were there at first? Would you say they were-

H.H.:

I think there were no more than five or six, and now, of course, there's a waiting list. It's a beautiful home. It's really worth a deal.

K.C.:

You worked a great deal there. In an article I read, it said that you were 30:00sharing responsibilities with Mr. Hellman.

H.H.:

And I clean and I scrub and I made the bed, but I done the decorating ever since they've been open.

K.C.:

Was it a full-time job for your husband, too?

H.H.:

Well, all our spare time, we- [interview cuts off 00:30:21]

K.C.:

You say it was a full-time job.

H.H.:

Well, all our spare-time went into that, and I think it was one of the finest homes. In fact, my mother's there. My mother's been there for almost 15 years. If I didn't think it was good, I wouldn't have her there, you know that.

K.C.:

Yeah. Your husband was in private practice as an attorney?

H.H.:

He was. My son's with him, and son-in-law, and then [inaudible 00:31:52] Kentucky Senator a long time before, [inaudible 00:31:55].

K.C.:

So, they have a firm there?

H.H.:

Yeah, but they're on their own. They run their own-

K.C.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative), okay. Will you say something now about all of your other work?

H.H.:

I don't know the word you're thinking ... Where do I begin? Well, council's been my way of life. I think it's a wonderful organization and it's a great [crosstalk 00:32:29].

K.C.:

Now, what council was that?

H.H.:

Council name? The Louisville Section National Council of Jewish Women.

K.C.:

Okay. You were involved in a lot of money-raising, I know.

H.H.:

Oh, yeah. Well, I have been chairman of the women's division of The United Jewish Appeal for many, many, many years, and member of the executive committee over there. I guess, well, I was president, I was first treasurer, I was financial secretary. I've done a lot of work for the DP camps were opened. They came over, I think, it was around in ... When did they open the camps? See, the 33:00Council of Jewish Women has run this program for many years, and we call it our New American Program. When they came over, you see, when the camps were let out, they could come over on community assurances.

H.H.:

Each community, through HIAS, which is the Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society, they're the overall, and they planned for the visas, and each city took their quota. In other words, we might set up three families a month. Some months you might get none, some months you might get six, but they came on community assurances. Now, community assurances, you cannot receive any welfare funds from the government. It has to be a community assurance. So, we used to meet these people. In those days, they came in on the train over at 10th Street Station. And I'll never forget, one day I went with Ms. Selma McClean Selma McClean, and my first time. I said, "Well, how do you know who they're going to be?"

H.H.:

See, HIAS met them, they put them on the train and sent them to these different cities. They did not want them to congregate and stay in New York. But a lot of 34:00them did, because if they found somebody they knew, you know, this was a great thing. Well, anyway, we went down there the one day. I remember it was my birthday, and we waited, and the train was empty. And I saw this sporty man come up, I thought he had a tennis racquet in his hand, very chipper. So, we waited, and I said, "Selma, there's nobody else coming off that train." I said, "I don't know what happened to our man." She said, "Well, let's go over to travelers aid." They had a station, they had booth or a station there at the depot.

H.H.:

Well, it was our man. The one I said, "There goes the tennis player." That was our man. A lot of them came over, we rented apartments for them, we took them to 35:00get groceries, try to teach them English a little bit, enough to go shopping. We'd take them to the dentist - all of them were sick. To the dentist, the doctors and things like that. We visited with them, we taught them some English and some of the basic things, and-

K.C.:

But there was no school to teach them English or-

H.H.:

Oh, yes, yes, yes. Aaron's Trade school. We set up a program there with the Board of Education. We sent in private tutors into the home with them. Most of them were second marriages where there were children involved. The husband or the wife had been killed in the concentration camps. All of them had numbers on them. But one woman, in fact, she lives in California now, we correspond, and she came here, she was a Czech and she spoke English beautifully. A lot of them were smart enough, they were self-taught. I mean, after all, those who came over were not the timid ones, they were the ones that had the will and the determination to get through this thing, and you could see that ... I could see the ones who were passive were not going to make it. They were just led to the 36:00slaughter like sheep.

H.H.:

Anyway, I said to her ... She spoke English. It was easier for me to talk to her. I said, "Claire," I said, "What did you expect to find when you came to Louisville, came to America?" What shocked me, I don't think they prepared these people. I guess there wasn't time with the great influx of all this going on. She said, "Well," She said, "My husband said 'You never have to wash dishes again. You press a button, it's all done for you'.'" She said, "When I got on that train, on my way to Louisville," and she said, "I saw all those shacks by the railroad track and I saw there were poor and needy people in this country," she said, "That's when I practically panicked." She said, "If Americans are going to live, and kids running around without shoes and things like that," she says, "What's going to happen to me?"

K.C.:

How many of the camps survivors came to Louisville? Just a rough estimate.

H.H.:

I really don't know. A lot of them came and did not stay very long. When I say 37:00very long, enough to pick up enough English to understand conversationally. A lot of them went to Detroit, because they paid a lot more money there. There was a big labor market there. And they scattered-

K.C.:

I was wondering what kind of jobs most of them went in to?

H.H.:

Well, when they came here, of course, not knowing the language, it's a terrible barrier. Some of them went in...a couple of them, I think, at that time, The Brown Bakery. They worked in bakery shops. They worked... Mr. [Rob 00:37:30] of the fish market took a lot of them. They did little repair jobs. Some of them had some sort of trade. A lot of them went into the butcher ... I had a kosher butcher shop. Some of them...there was one that ended up being ... builders. I'm trying to think.

H.H.:

You see, even if they had professions such as a dentist or a lawyer, they could 38:00not practice that profession here. You have to go to school and I think you have to wait ... You have to [inaudible 00:38:03]. I think you have to be an American citizen before you can do anything. You can go to school, but I mean, you can't ... Well, even now, when they're bringing people from other parts of the world, they're not allowed to practice.

K.C.:

Have you worked much with some of the Russian Jews coming over of late?

H.H.:

No, I'm sort of out of it. I've visited a couple of them, but they're different, completely, than the ones who came before I dropped. While they lived in Russia, they didn't have this freedom and that freedom, they were not tortured in any sense like this group here that came, no way. They're different, they're more educated. Well, I wouldn't say more educated. A lot of these people who were in camps were teenagers when they went in and came over, you know. That makes a big difference in your life at what point you were cut off.

K.C.:

Have many of them remained in Louisville? Have any of them remained?

H.H.:

Oh, yeah. There, it would be interesting, perhaps, for you to interview some of those. Yes, there are some here that have remained. I'm trying to think of my group. I can't think off-hand. Well, the one man passed away two years ago that had a butcher shop and I kept up with him pretty much. I used to buy from him all the time and he opened that ... The last thing said was, "Open that delicatessen over on Hikes Lane." It's now called Lance or Marks or-

K.C.:

Lance and Morris.

H.H.:

He opened that and when he died, and then they took it over. That's been recent.

K.C.:

The community, the Jewish community, by this time, was united. Did they unite behind these immigrants by supporting them and by getting them jobs, by-

H.H.:

Well, you see, the way it worked ... The Council of Jewish Women ... In fact, they're still doing it for the Russians that are coming over. They help them with their clothing. They find a place for them to live when they come here. 40:00They set up the apartment and they do all these things. Now, a lot of them do speak some English, and I haven't worked with this group at all, not at all.

K.C.:

What positions did you hold in the council, Jewish Women and-

H.H.:

I'm going to touch on that first, I think.

K.C.:

Okay. Can you-

H.H.:

I started the Nearly New Shop too, that I'm very proud of.

K.C.:

Okay. Will you talk about that some?

H.H.:

Yeah.

K.C.:

I'll set it here. Okay, just when and-

H.H.:

You want any of the background before we get to that? [interview cuts off 00:40:37]

H.H.:

You might be interested about Israel. You know, there was a lot of feeling of whether or not the Jewish state should be created.

K.C.:

Okay.

H.H.:

I mean, I don't know why. Don't write that down. I just [inaudible 00:40:51]. [interview cuts off 00:40:52]

K.C.:

Okay. Just your reflections on why you were involved in all that you've been 41:00involved in.

H.H.:

The Nearly New Shop, the Council of Jewish Women was started in 1956, is that what it was?

K.C.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

H.H.:

And the reason we did it; we needed money to carry on our community projects and this was a source of income. We started on a shoestring, and we developed it into a pretty nice thing, and the money we derive from that shop today, which has now moved down the street between Clay and Hancock-

K.C.:

It's still called the Nearly New Shop?

H.H.:

Still Nearly New. Provided us with funds to do all this community work that we're doing. And to California Daycare Center, we gave 10,000 ... Our first big gift from the Nearly New Shop when it first opened was $10,000 to start Senior House Incorporated. At that time we started in the, the Senior House, we started in the basement of the YMCA building of 3rd and Broadway, and we gave the seed money for that and we got federal money to match it, and that's why we have a Senior House today, because nobody else came forward without any money. And that's why I felt that the shop was very important. When you can plonk down $10,000 for a project, because back there in those days, that was a lot of 42:00money. Today, 10,000 is a drop in the bucket.

H.H.:

And, through that shop also, we started Senior House West, which was another $10,000 deal. And we put a great deal of money, thousands and thousands of dollars into the California Daycare Center down there. They would have gone by the way of the road, I think, if we hadn't pulled it out of the woods.

H.H.:

We've spent a lot of money on Shelter House. [crosstalk 00:42:35].

K.C.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). The YMCA.

H.H.:

Yeah. [inaudible 00:42:37] Well, I worked down there, too.

K.C.:

At Shelter House?

H.H.:

Yeah.

K.C.:

Doing what?

H.H.:

Well, I wasn't very good with the kids.

K.C.:

Oh, really?

H.H.:

Yeah, I went through the course of ... I did some typing for them and some filing, and I hung some drapes for them and I swept up a little bit, and I did go out with the kids a couple of times, but it just wasn't my bag.

K.C.:

Yeah. What about this kind of work do you enjoy? It's almost social work. It is social work.

H.H.:

It is social work. Well, I don't think I had enough rapport with the kids today. 43:00I don't like working with sick people. I have a hang up of it and especially sick children, and these children, just, prettiest little girls with all the rouge and the carrying on and the pregnancy. It just upset me too much. I didn't enjoy that. I like..Right now, I'm working on Fashion Encore. We have a sale, three days, and it will be in October, and we work a whole year on it. We gather a little better than nearly new clothes and we ran a three-day sale last year at the executive inn and we made $36,000.

K.C.:

This money will go to-

H.H.:

That goes to keeping up our community service project. We turn it right back into the community.

K.C.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). And when you speak of community, are you speaking-

H.H.:

I'm talking the general Louisville community.

K.C.:

You're not speaking of the Jewish-

H.H.:

No, I'm speaking of ... And we helped start Club Sixty at the center. We support 44:00that to the tune of, I think, four or $6000 a year, every year. And for a while, council did very little things for the Jewish community. Mostly was the general community. We have-

K.C.:

Is that changing today?

H.H.:

No, I don't think ... Yes, I think there's more accent now on Jewish things. They're giving more money over to the center for the Club Sixty, and I think they're putting some money in this new Jewish Studies high school. I think they're doing some of that.

K.C.:

Where will that be? I haven't heard anything about it.

H.H.:

That's at the center.

K.C.:

Oh, really?

H.H.:

Yeah.

K.C.:

It will be a four year?

H.H.:

I don't know. See, I'm not as involved as I used to be. We have an apartment in Florida and my husband's had a heart attack. When he wants to go, we go, and I just can't [crosstalk 00:44:57].

K.C.:

There's still a Hebrew day school, isn't there, here?

H.H.:

The day school, it's at the center, and there's also a Hebrew school. Now, there's two different ... One, you go from morning through the day, which is the 45:00day school. The Hebrew school, which you go to regular school and you study Hebrew in the afternoon. I think they have two now. I don't know how they work it out.

H.H.:

But see, when your family get big and get grown and they have their own ... You're not as involved, you know, not as on top of it, so to speak.

K.C.:

Do you particularly enjoy administrative work, getting things done?

H.H.:

Yeah. I'm a doer.

K.C.:

Yeah, okay.

H.H.:

I'm a doer, compulsively so, and sometimes it's not so good. But I worked on Community Chest, I've been a member of the Jewish Social Service Agency board for over 25 years. We were at a home at 1145 South 1st Street, a home for convalescent children, which ended up being a red feather of our organization, and they merged now. The Home of the Innocents took them over when they sold the 46:00building. 1st Street got in such a condition, it was a home that was given to them by someone in 18 something, and, you know, the rooms and the furnace and all that stuff. That is out of existence. I've seen them come and seen them go.

K.C.:

Have you seen any kind of dramatic or not so dramatic changes in the Jewish community over the years? One thing-

H.H.:

In what sense?

K.C.:

... you mentioned, that there's a trend towards more unity. Are there any other trends that you see? Any other things that are [crosstalk 00:46:41].

H.H.:

I think there's much more accent on Jewish education, much more accent on it.

K.C.:

Do you think Jews are becoming traditional in the sense that they're rediscovering their roots, so to speak?

H.H.:

Now when you say...traditional in what sense? An awareness of being a Jew?

K.C.:

Of being a Jew.

H.H.:

Yes, I think the State of Israel has took great deal of pride in being Jewish and I think the world has more respect for the Jew, because he's always 47:00considered more or less turn the other cheek, or call it what you want, but when the Israeli's really stood up for their integrity and for the Six Day War and all that stuff, I think it gave a Jew a lot more self esteem and respect. It made them prouder, being [crosstalk 00:47:27].

K.C.:

Do you think that this proposed high school is kind of one means toward that?

H.H.:

Yes. I'll tell you another thing; since Hebrew is now a living language, I don't read Hebrew, I only know a couple of words. I have the opportunity. It wasn't the thing to do in those days. Who wanted to do that? Nobody wanted to do that, that wasn't it. But since Hebrew is now a living language and people do speak it and people are going to Israel, and then it's the thing of being [inaudible 00:47:54].

K.C.:

You've been to Israel?

H.H.:

I've been there. I've been on a mission for United Jewish Appeal. I've been there three times.

K.C.:

What do you have to say about Israel?

H.H.:

Well, you can't believe it 'til you see it. It's the only way I can say. I don't know. You walk down the street and someone once said, "If they call you a dirty Jew it's because didn't wash your face." If you do it here, it has another meaning. But they say, you know, you're just home. Well, not home, because this is home and it will always be home, but it's a feeling of pride and it's exciting [crosstalk 00:48:34].

K.C.:

[inaudible 00:48:33] have said that many Jews have gone over ... American Jews have gone over, because of pride and because it is the promised land and all that, but have been disappointed, have returned.

H.H.:

No, I've never heard that. I know [Lewis Cole 00:48:47] ... You know Lewis Cole?

K.C.:

I don't know him, but I've heard-

H.H.:

The first time he went over, and this was many years ago, he came back and he 49:00said, "I'm so happy I went," and he said, "For this reason, I knew when I went, I wasn't going to like it." I knew that it wasn't going to be ... I'm so happy I don't feel that way. And the really amazing thing about Israel; you see this war-torn ... When I went over the first time, we went up to somebody's house. A friend took us up there. We met on the street, she attached herself to us. There was barbed wire here and the Arab was sitting here with the gun and his counterpart Israeli was here, and they're sitting there just like this.

H.H.:

Yet, in spite of all that, and all the other problems they've had. After you take a melting pot of people from all over the world with different cultures, different backgrounds, and you know, they have had time to do the art, and they've had time to do everything. I mean, I don't know how you can separate your feeling of self-security, or security, and have time to do all the nice 50:00things at the same time.

K.C.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Do you think there will be many American Jews to go over? Would you and your husband ever consider becoming Israelis?

H.H.:

No.

K.C.:

Because America is home?

H.H.:

This is home and I like it here. And there are many more conveniences here than over there. And I'm spoiled, and I don't speak the language. That, to me, would be a very ... Of course, everyone there speaks English. Almost everybody. You find very few that don't speak English. Early days, they're teaching in the 3rd or 4th grade over there.

K.C.:

How do you think Jews in Louisville feel today about Israel, what's happening in Israel?

H.H.:

They care.

K.C.:

Okay, they care. What were the Jews' response to Sadat and his recent peace initiative? And now, [crosstalk 00:50:49] things have slowed down.

H.H.:

They were thrilled to death. It would be a wonderful thing if there would be peace over there. You see, the Egyptians and Arabs are also Semites, you know, really.

K.C.:

What about the West Bank settlements?

H.H.:

How I feel about it?

K.C.:

Yeah.

H.H.:

I talked to a friend of mine who lives in Tel Aviv, and I don't know whether you know [Andre's 00:51:12] of London, has a hair shop over there.

K.C.:

Yeah, I've heard of him.

H.H.:

Well, his mother and father live in Tel Aviv, and they're here on a visit. I took them out for lunch on Saturday a week ago. And they said, "No way can they give that up. There is no way." I asked them about Begin and what's going on over there, and they said, "Well, Begin," they were so thrilled. In fact, they saw Sadat. They went to all of their ... They were thrilled to death. They want peace. It cost them...everything they have goes into that.

K.C.:

60 percent of the budget.

H.H.:

That's right. I said, "How about Begin? Is he as strong as ... You know, they're trying to mess him up here," and he said, "Oh yes," he says, "Begin made one mistake. He should have never promised Sadat the Sinai without ...". That was 52:00his ... He didn't want to get hurt, you know, [inaudible 00:52:07]. But he said there is no way they can give up the West Bank, there is no way they can give up the Gaza Strip and Shar Masik, or whatever down the bottom, that when they took it in the last war, there is no way-

K.C.:

So, you think Louisville Jews pretty much feel the same way?

H.H.:

Well, our Jews thought Begin made a big mistake. He should have bent over backwards, given them everything he wanted, peace at any price, where you know the chain will improve, but that can't be. It doesn't work that way.

K.C.:

Well, not to carry the analogy too far, but do you think Sadat has designs as Hitler had designs?

H.H.:

No, no, no, no. He's fighting for his country, like you or anybody else would do. See, when you stop and think about Sadat, you forget ... I don't know whether you do or not; Russia had Egypt like this and the fact that they got out from under there, they're now allied with the United States and everyone, but 53:00Russia was in there, really good in there - really in there. And Russia has been wanting to put her feet in warm water for a heck of a long time.

K.C.:

Any other last recollections? Things we haven't covered?

H.H.:

I've enjoyed this, but I'm going to kick out of it. I really thank you for asking me to do it, and whatever little bit I've ever done, I certainly got a lot more out of it than I ever gave and I really mean that.

K.C.:

Well, we thank you for cooperating and taking the time to talk.

H.H.:

[inaudible 00:53:31].