Interview with Pauline Pearson, May 2, 1977

Interviewer:

Would you give me your name and your affiliation?

Pauline Pearson:

Yes. My name is Pauline Pearson, of the Jewish faith.

Interviewer:

And which congregation do you belong to?

P.P.:

Keneseth Israel.

Interviewer:

Okay. Do you want to tell me the date and place of your birth?

P.P.:

I'd be very glad to. June 16th, 1914 Louisville, Kentucky. Upstairs in a fire station.

Interviewer:

Where was the fire station?

P.P.:

On East Jefferson Street someplace, it's no longer there. But I was born at home, upstairs in a fire station.Interviewer:

Isn't that wonderful? Was the doctor in attendance?

P.P.:

Yes, I'm sure he was.

Interviewer:

And what's your present address?

P.P.:

103 Algers Court, Apartment 1.

Interviewer:

And the zip?

P.P.:

40220.

Interviewer:

Okay. And what were your parents' names?

P.P.:

Now, this may sound rather ridiculous to you, my mother died when I was 17 months old, and I never knew her name. I have never seen her, or seen a picture of her. Don't even know what her maiden name was. My father's name was Max Pearson. But my own real mother, I never knew.

Interviewer:

Really? And they never had any pictures of her?

P.P.:

Well, it was a very sad story. My father, my mother died in childbirth, and it seems-

Interviewer:

The child after you?

P.P.:

The child after me.

Interviewer:

Right.

P.P.:

And evidently, from what I can assume, my father was a dear, warm person, and evidently, when this happened, he just wiped it all out of his mind. Because we never discussed the fact, what had happened. My father remarried when I, I guess I was seven years old, to a wonderful woman. I really don't want to use the name step mother because she was my mother, not my step mother. She was really my mother. But the mother that gave birth to me, I don't even know what her maiden name was.

Interviewer:

And there were no pictures of you with her?

P.P.:

No, I have never seen a picture of the woman that gave birth to me. Actually, she's buried in Louisville, and my step mother showed me her grave, and told me whatever she knew about her, but I know nothing about her whatsoever.

Interviewer:

My goodness. Well, it must have been quite a blow to the family when this happened.

P.P.:

I'm sure it was. As a matter of fact, it was a very tragic thing, because the child that was given birth to when my mother passed away, was then given away for adoption. We just, about 10 years ago, came in contact with each other.

Interviewer:

Was it a boy or girl?

P.P.:

A girl.

Interviewer:

And what's her name?

P.P.:

But this is after my father passed away that we did that.

Interviewer:

I see. What's her name?

P.P.:

Her name is Allie Hershberg, now.

Interviewer:

And where does she live?

P.P.:

She lives, right now, she's living in Atlanta. But she was raised as a child in Evansville. No, actually as a child she was raised in Louisville, and then they moved to Evansville.

Interviewer:

Well, was she brought up Jewish?

P.P.:

Oh, yes, very much so.

Interviewer:

So she was given, also, to Orthodox-

P.P.:

No, I think they were conservative.

Interviewer:

I see.

P.P.:

Yeah, they were conservative.

Interviewer:

So you lived your whole life here in Louisville?

P.P.:

Oh yes. I was born here, lived my whole life here. Yeah.

Interviewer:

Well, who raised you until you were seven years old?

P.P.:

My grandmother and grandfather, and two maiden aunts. And my father lived with them. And my older sister. There were three of us that my mother gave birth to.

Interviewer:

Wait a minute, there was you-

P.P.:

And older sister.

Interviewer:

What's her name?

P.P.:

Selma Schwartz.

Interviewer:

All right. And who else?

P.P.:

And the younger sister that, but she was not with us. Just my older sister and myself, and my father, moved in with my grandmother and grandfather-

Interviewer:

His mother and father?

P.P.:

Right.

Interviewer:

What were their names?

P.P.:

Persky. P-E-R-S-K-Y.

Interviewer:

And do you know their first names?

P.P.:

Oh yeah, sure. His name was Louis Persky, as a matter of fact he was a tradition in Louisville, he was shamus of the old farmer, I think must of been a I think it must have been a Yakof Shul, is what they call it. And her name was Gietal Persky. And he was very, very deep into religion. I mean, religion was his whole life. He knew nothing but religion, as a matter of fact. He never went outside of religion to make his living because he was Orthodox. He would not work on the sabbath, he would not do anything to desecrate the religion, and therefore he peddled out a living by working at the shul.

Interviewer:

What about your grandmother? What did she do?

P.P.:

My grandmother was a house wife.

Interviewer:

She didn't work at all?

P.P.:

No, no. She was a house wife.

Interviewer:

This Louis Persky, what did he do to eek out this living?

P.P.:

He was a shamus in the shul.

Interviewer:

And the shul paid him?

P.P.:

Yes, he made his living in the shul, yes.

Interviewer:

I see.

P.P.:

He also, as I remember correctly, in his younger days he sold kosher foods, like Passover foods, and kosher foods, and this sort of thing, to help eek out a living.

Interviewer:

Okay.

P.P.:

But he made a fairly decent living from the shul, from the members, and what have you. But nothing much, but you know, they lived.

Interviewer:

And where, do you remember the address of where this house was?

P.P.:

Yes, I do because I lived there. 213 East Madison Street. That's the first I remember of my childhood. I don't remember anything before living with them. But that's, of course, I was just 17 months old when this happened.

Interviewer:

Right.

P.P.:

But I remember very well, as a matter of fact, after they passed away, the house 5:00was left, somebody sold the house, so it's very familiar in my memory. I'll never forget it.

Interviewer:

Well, did you ever wonder why you didn't have a mother?

P.P.:

No, I knew. I knew that I didn't have a mother. I knew when she had died. I knew that she had died in childbirth, I knew there was another child. But, and I'd wonder, but my father wouldn't discuss it with us. I mean, we never made an attempt to discuss it, but I knew that the wound must be so bad he just couldn't talk about it, because he was a very warm, and friendly person. I think he just cut that whole chapter out of his life, is what I think happened.

Interviewer:

How did you feel when you realized that he was marrying again?

P.P.:

I think I felt very good. I think they did a very smart, the woman he married really was a great person. She was a widow, her husband had died at a very young age.

Interviewer:

What was her maiden name?

P.P.:

Criteman.

Interviewer:

Her full name.

P.P.:

Clara Criteman. Well, her married name was Harn, but her maiden name was Criteman.

Interviewer:

She was Clara Criteman Harn.

P.P.:

That's right.

Interviewer:

And then she became Pearson.

P.P.:

And her husband passed away. That's right. She was, the Critemans in Louisville, she was one of the Critemans. It was all done very, very well because I knew her quite some time. As a matter of fact, she had made clothes for my sister and myself. We used to go visit her, and she would visit us. It was a good feeling. It really was.

Interviewer:

Did she have any children from her first marriage?

P.P.:

Yes. She had the one son, Sal Harn. And we knew each other. We were introduced-

Interviewer:

Was he much older than you?

P.P.:

No, no. As a matter of fact, he was exactly a month older than my older sister, who's three years older than I am. He's really three years older than I am.

Interviewer:

So, you then were brought up as two sisters and a brother.

P.P.:

Oh yes. It was never, we were very, very fortunate to have the kind of relationship we had, because even though it was his, hers, and ours, because there were two children afterwards-

Interviewer:

Oh, really?

P.P.:

Yeah. A younger sister and a younger brother. But we never, I guess this is probably would make history, because I don't think we ever knew there was a difference in who belonged to whom; except that my older brother, my step 7:00brother, and I hate to use the word step, never changed his name. His mother insisted that the name remain the same, and I think very wisely so. He was the only child. But that was the only difference that we ever knew that we were not, honestly, full blooded, brother, sister, mother, father, what have you. We were quite fortunate.

Interviewer:

What did your father do for a living?

P.P.:

My father was an insurance man. You might say he might have been a little bit of an outcast in the family because his father did nothing but religious work for a living, his brother was the [Marl 00:07:39] in Louisville and the in the [foreign language 00:07:40], and he also was very, very religious. And then my father was quite religious, he also, my father, was a part time canter. When I say part time, really just for the holidays. He had a beautiful voice, very, very musically inclined. And quite often for the holidays he would go to a little town in Kentucky, never to a big city, to a little town, we got paid to 8:00conduct these holiday services. But his livelihood, he did work on the side, but his livelihood was insurance.

Interviewer:

But he worked on the sabbath in religious ways, you mean?

P.P.:

Oh, no, no, no. He was not as religious as my uncle or my grandfather. He would work on the sabbath. I think he did, if I remember correctly. I'm sure he did. He would ride on Saturday, where the rest of them wouldn't. He was almost like, in that respect, but very, except he did not adhere as much as the vision as the others did, so far as smoking, or riding, or what have you on the sabbath. He ate nothing but kosher foods, and certainly observed all the holidays, but he was not as fanatic as the rest of them. They were really quite fanatic, and he was more out in the world, he was with people, with Americans, more than they were, and the learned the ways of the world. He was not quite as fanatic.

Interviewer:

If he worked on the holidays, in a small town-

P.P.:

Oh, no, that was strictly for religious purposes.

Interviewer:

Then you all weren't together to celebrate the holidays.

P.P.:

Well, this was just occasionally for Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur. But-

Interviewer:

Or did you go with him?

P.P.:

No, we would not go with him. At that time, that's when all the families would get together. He might not have been here, but the grandmothers and grandfathers, and uncles and aunts, would all holiday together. And it wasn't too often. But he enjoyed it very, very much. And if he had the opportunity he would do that. Of course he always sang in the choir at Keneseth when he wasn't going out of town. Very musically inclined. He used to play at Bar Mitvahs and weddings, and what have you. This was his love.

Interviewer:

He changed his name.

P.P.:

No, this is a strange thing. I can never figure out, there were three names in the family. Perksy, P-E-R-S-K-Y, Person, P-E-R-S-O-N, and Pearson, P-E-A-R-S-O-N. And the most I could ever figure out was because of pogroms, when they came here, they could not come as fathers, as sons, as brothers. And their names had to be changed for some diplomatic reaosns. I never quite understood 10:00it. But it ended up with three different names. The name, really, I think, should have been Persky. But because of the pogroms, all the names were changed, so that they would not be identified as brothers, as father, and what have you.

Interviewer:

Do you have any of the papers that they used to come to America?

P.P.:

No, I have nothing. I have absolutely nothing.

Interviewer:

Now, was Louis Persky the one that was the immigrant? Or was there someone before him?

P.P.:

No, no, my father was an immigrant. Now again, when I say my mother, I hate to use the word step mother, my step mother was an immigrant. My father was an immigrant. Whether my, it's a shame to put it like this, but the woman who gave birth to me, whether or not she was an immigrant, I do not know. But my father and my step mother are both immigrants.

Interviewer:

I see. What country did they come from?

P.P.:

From Russia.

Interviewer:

They both came?

P.P.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Interviewer:

From perhaps the same shtetl?

P.P.:

No, I don't think same shtetl at all. I've forgotten the names of the shtetls but it was not the same shtetl at all. I know that. And they were fixed up and 11:00married here. But my father was, I guess, probably in his late teens, because he had gone through the whole gamete of studying in Europe. He was very, very well educated. Well, the whole family was, because at that time all they knew was to educate the boys. The girls stayed home and worked, and the boys went to Hebrew schools, and the Shivahs, and they come over very, very educated. My mother was not that educated because it was the boys needed the education and the girls didn't. But they both were immigrants.

Interviewer:

Well, you seem to be a very educated person. How did you feel about the boys getting the Jewish education and you not?

P.P.:

Well, now this really didn't hold true as far as their children were concerned. This was not true.

Interviewer:

What kind of Jewish education did you get?

P.P.:

I went to Hebrew school, I went to Sunday school. And unfortunately, I didn't go, well, I graduated Hebrew school. And then I could have gone on further, but 12:00I didn't. We all went to Hebrew school.

Interviewer:

Was this after public school, or was it Jewish day school?

P.P.:

No, it was after public school. There was no Jewish day school. We went to public school, and then we went to Hebrew school three or four days a week.

Interviewer:

What language was mostly spoken in your home?

P.P.:

Yiddish. Definitely my grandfather, grandmother's home was all Yiddish when I was living there. In my own home a lot of Yiddish was spoken, a lot of English was spoken. If they didn't want us to understand they would talk Jewish, but we all understood, and can't speak it very well.

Interviewer:

Did you ever figure out how you learned Yiddish?

P.P.:

Well, I think the Americans learn English because this was all that was spoken in my grandmother and grandfather's house. And I grew up with Yiddish. And it's a beautiful language, and I'm so happy that I can speak it, because I don't know what I would do without it for expressions, or for what have you. I use it all the time. And it really, in my job it comes in very handy because there are many times that people call up that can only speak Yiddish, and I talk to them because there's nobody else around there that really can understand or talk to them. I love it. I think it's a beautiful language. It's very expressive. I just 13:00can't express myself without talking Yiddish.

Interviewer:

It's an earthy language.

P.P.:

Do you understand Yiddish?

Interviewer:

I understand it. I don't speak it that well.

P.P.:

I don't speak it fluently anymore, but I can certainly keep up a conversation.

Interviewer:

After your father got married to, what was her first name?

P.P.:

Clara.

Interviewer:

Clara.

P.P.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Interviewer:

Did you move away from your grandparent's home?

P.P.:

We moved away, but practically across the street and down the street. Same block. But across the street and down the street. And we lived there for quite some time.

Interviewer:

You kept in touch with your grandparents?

P.P.:

Oh yes, yes. As a matter of fact, my grandmother died, I think, fairly shortly after they married, and my grandfather was at our house quite a bit because he was crazy about my mother, and very grateful to her for what she was doing for his grandchildren.

Interviewer:

Now, you let a little word slip earlier when you talked about your father and Clara's marriage being arranged. Would you talk about that a little bit?

P.P.:

Oh yeah, sure. My uncle, the one that I mentioned before as being the Marl at Sfard of Louisville, knew this woman, as I refer to as woman-

Interviewer:

Call her Clara.

P.P.:

Clara, okay. Well, I feel disrespectful because she really was my mom.

Interviewer:

Mama Clara.

P.P.:

Yeah. But he knew that, of course he was a religious nut, and that she came from a very, very religious background. They still carried tradition, the Criteman name, as being a very religious family. And he knew that her husband had passed away, and that she was financially not too well off. She was living with her brother, who was supporting her. And he talked to them both to see if they would like an arrangement, and they both did, and it was a beautiful arrangement. It was strictly an arrangement of convenience, she had a child, he had children. She needed somebody to support her, he needed someone to raise his children, and it, thank God worked out beautifully.

Interviewer:

And keep a kosher home.

P.P.:

Oh, definitely keep a kosher home. Yes.

Interviewer:

It had to be a kosher wife, so to speak.

P.P.:

Yeah, that's what my uncle went for. He wouldn't have asked someone else unless he knew she was going to keep a kosher home, and observe the sabbath, and have the sabbath meal and what have you, because that was really very important. It was very important to my daddy, too, I mean, Friday night and Saturday was always a beautiful thing in my house. Because we never, I doubt very much if we had many meals on Friday nights that we didn't have a stranger. Because when Daddy went to shul every Friday evening, and there was always somebody that-

Interviewer:

He brought home?

P.P.:

At that time there was so many transients coming through Louisville, not like now. I don't know where they came from.

Interviewer:

What year are you speaking of?

P.P.:

I'm speaking of, I guess as much as 55 years ago.

Interviewer:

Well, let's see. You said you were born, what, 19-

P.P.:

1914.

Interviewer:

1914.

P.P.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Interviewer:

And you were seven years old, so it was about between 1921 and let's say 1930.

P.P.:

Right, that's good enough. A 10 year period is good enough. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Interviewer:

And that there were many transients-

P.P.:

We lived downtown, the majesty was right downtown. The, what was then the first free Shul that Rabbi Breadman, as far as I know now, was about two blocks away 16:00from our house. My daddy walked, to show he would not ride on the sabbath, and he'd walk home. And there was always somebody coming through town that he would bring home for the sabbath meal. Which everybody on my street was doing because it was all a Jewish block. This was known as the Jewish block of Louisville. And they were all the same. It was really a wonderful place to be brought up. People used to laugh about Madison Street and say that everybody knew what everybody else was cooking for dinner, but it really was. It was a beautiful relationship because, to this day, I mean, we have not forgotten our friendships. Most of the older ones have gone, there are still a few living. And, unfortunately there was a funeral a few weeks ago. And when there's a funeral for somebody who once lived on Madison Street, you see everybody that ever lived on Madison Street.

Interviewer:

Can you just give me a name of some of the people that lived there?

P.P.:

Yes, sure, of course. I can give you many names. The Leapsons.

Interviewer:

Which Leapsons?

P.P.:

The ones of the attorneys, the Leapsons. Their mother and father lived right next door. As a matter of fact, we had an adjoining wall, our house had an adjoining wall, at that one particular place.

Interviewer:

This was your grandparents house, or your father's house?

P.P.:

No, no, my father and mother's house.

Interviewer:

With the, which Leapson, do you remember his name?

P.P.:

Yeah, well, it was the old man Leaspons, of course, you wouldn't remember him. He was a-

Interviewer:

I need names.

P.P.:

Yeah. I'm trying to think. Her name was Dora Leapson.

Interviewer:

Dora Leapson.

P.P.:

Was Mrs., The old lady, Mrs. Leapson. And Sadie Rosenthal was her father, that taught Hebrew to all the boys, used to come and they would learn Hebrew.

Interviewer:

To First Street?

P.P.:

No, anybody. He was a private tutor.

Interviewer:

So they came to his home?

P.P.:

To his home, yes. He lived, I cannot remember Mr. Leapson's name, but he was a, at that time they had these peddlers on the corner that sold, not hot dogs-

Interviewer:

Pretzels?

P.P.:

No, no. We used to make them. Oh my goodness, I can't remember.

Interviewer:

You'll think of it later.

P.P.:

Anyway, Julius Leapson, the judge, his father.

Interviewer:

Julius Leapson's father and mother lived right next door to you?

P.P.:

Yes, that's correct. Yep.

Interviewer:

I see. Then who else lived on that street?

P.P.:

The Bradmans, I imagine that you know of Katie Spielberg, who was a Bradman. Lilly Pearl Jacob, who passed away recently, you probably know her. Mrs. Austin, of course, was a fixture on Madison Street, and her children are Esther Waterman, is one of her children, Eta Pass is one of her children. You see, these were all the older generations.

Interviewer:

This is what I want to hear about.

P.P.:

Yeah, I almost have to give you the names of the current people because you would not remember them. That was before your time. Because you're too young to remember them, even had you lived in Louisville. But then there was the [Wazbutzkies 00:18:48], there was the Applebombs. In my immediate family, as in my grandmother and grandfather, they had an uncle and aunt that lived down the block so there were three in my immediate family that lived on the block. I 19:00don't know if you had Sadie Beret's name on your list to be interviewed, her family lived on the block. The Bernsteins, that is, I think I saw Elsie Bernstein on your list, I'm not sure, that's her in laws that lived there. Just so many.

Interviewer:

They were all Orthodox?

P.P.:

Orthodox.

Interviewer:

And they lived near the shul, and walked to shul-

P.P.:

Actually, we did not belong to Anshei Sfard, we belonged to Keneseth Israel. And Keneseth Israel at that time was Fourth and Jacob, but we used to walk because Four and Jacob was not too far from our hose.

Interviewer:

About how many blocks was it?

P.P.:

I guess maybe a mile, probably. But my father, for evening services or what have you, would just go to Anshei Sfard for the convenience of it. But we've always belonged to Kenesth Israel.

Interviewer:

Well, I know that it's necessary to have a minyan every night for the evening services. I would imagine that your father went to the closer one to help make the minyan.

P.P.:

Yes, that's correct. Or if the other place called him. Well, they always got a 20:00minyan for mass, they would call anybody if they needed a minyan, and they could get 10 men to walk over there in a minutes time.

Interviewer:

Every night?

P.P.:

Yes. If they needed, if someone was saying Kaddish, or what have you.

Interviewer:

What about in the morning? Did they go to services?

P.P.:

Only if they needed them for a minyan, I think. Although there were some that probably did. I don't really remember. My father didn't go in the morning because he went off to work.

Interviewer:

What about your grandfather?

P.P.:

Oh my grandfather certainly went. He would go, it was the old Benet Yankov shul, is what it was, and that was at Preston and Fehr, as I remember. And once they were on Jefferson street. I remember-

Interviewer:

Would you spell that? The Benet, I don't know what you're saying.

P.P.:

I think it's B-N-A-I, no, that's B'nai. B-E-N-E-T Y-A-N-K-O-F. Something like that.

Interviewer:

Yankov.

P.P.:

Yankov. That was at Preston and Fehr, I don't know if the brewery is there now, or it was right in the back of the brewery. And before that, it was on Jefferson street between Preston and Shelby. I remember back that far, but they moved from 21:00Jefferson street to Preston Street, and then they changed and became Keneseth Israel and moved to Floyd and Jacob.

Interviewer:

Now you said that your grandparents, and your father, was from Russia. Do you know how they ended up in Louisville?

P.P.:

No. I do not know. I don't know if they were sponsored here, but there were other brothers that ended up in New York, so I really don't know. My grandfather, and actually three daughters, and two sons, ended up in Louisville. And I think three sons ended up in New York, if I remember correctly.

Interviewer:

And you don't know what brought them here?

P.P.:

No. I don't think I was ever inquisitive enough to ask. I have no idea.

Interviewer:

Can you even fantasize a little bit?

P.P.:

No, I'm trying to remember. I don't know. I really don't know. No idea.

Interviewer:

Do you have any idea why any of the other people, who were from Russia, who came to Madison Street, why they came to Louisville? Under, what were the 22:00circumstances that brought them?

P.P.:

I'm sorry. I don't know. I don't think I was inquisitive enough to ever ask. I mean, this is just it. We lived in Louisville, and that was all I ever thought about. I have no idea why Louisville. I can't even guess or fantasize. I don't know.

Interviewer:

Well, okay, let me press you a little further on this question. You talked about transients coming through. How many of them, if any that you know of, stayed and then brought other people too?

P.P.:

No, I don't think these people stayed. These were still the transients like you have today. They were going from pillar to post, more or less living that way. Going from community to community, picking up a few dollars here, and getting on the bus and going to another community. We still have that today in Louisville, but not nearly as much. And I think the reason we have, is because we is spread out so far and they don't know where to go. But I think those were more or less people that really, that had no ways to make a livelihood, and they were 23:00wanderers. And I don't think any of them remained in Louisville. It was just their way of life to go from community to community. It was a very sad thing. But I don't think they remained here.

Interviewer:

You mentioned that Yiddish was the main language spoken, other than English. I wondered, was Russian never spoken?

P.P.:

Yes, now my mother and father would speak that when they really wanted to keep-

Interviewer:

A secret?

P.P.:

Yes. Then they would speak that, because that we didn't understand at all.

Interviewer:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

P.P.:

But in the later years, though, they were mumbling it. I mean, they couldn't get it out too good, because they'd spoken it very, very little. Yiddish was really their home tongue. And they used the other when they really and truly tried to let us not to know what was going on. But they did not speak it fluently in the later years at all, because it was used so little. But of course my grandmother and grandfather spoke very little English, theirs was mostly Yiddish.

Interviewer:

Do you actually, yourself, remember any immigrants coming to Louisville at all? I mean back then, I don't mean now. And why, maybe?

P.P.:

Of course the ones I remember are all family. This would be my mother's side, the Critemans, came when I was already, well, my mother and father were married so I wasn't too young anymore. But there was a whole group of them came. Jacob Criteman was the father, and his wife's name was Hannah Criteman. And, if I remember correctly, they had seven children. And they were all brought over here by, I would say, my mother and her brother and sister. But when they came here, he had a big family, seven children, which is a little difficult. But they brought them all over here, and they made their homes here, and they all did very, very well in Louisville. Of course, they came to Louisville because their family was here.

Interviewer:

Okay, but why did they leave Russia?

P.P.:

Well, they were very unhappy there. I don't remember if they came one by one. I think they almost came as a family. When the family here got enough money to bring them over, and to set them up with housekeeping.

Interviewer:

Did they move in with you at all?

P.P.:

No, they did not move in with us. They moved in with my mother's sister, who had a much bigger house than we had. We were kind of cramped.

Interviewer:

What kind of work did they do?

P.P.:

He, actually I don't remember what he did, but his family all became very well educated, and they all did very well financially. Mostly in the grocery. Well, I guess he had a grocery, come to think of it. And practically all of his children, well, I think all of them, had groceries. But they were either very fortunate, or very smart business people; they made a lot of money in the grocery business. And they, more or less, all now have retired, and are all doing quite well. Now this is this one individual family.

Interviewer:

This one group. That's what I was interested in, in knowing what the situation was like when all of a sudden here come these foreigners. What did you children think about the other children that came from Europe?

P.P.:

Well, now they were all a little bit older than us. They were not children anymore. They had already had most of their schooling. They were all, even the youngest one, was a little bit older than I am. We were quite excited, I 26:00remember. And it was a very nice thing, because it was really a reunion. And they were already grown, they were not children, so there was no animosity, any jealousy, or what have you. But they really took hold just beautifully. But they were fortunate they had family here to do for them, and to get them started, and then they went out on their own.

Interviewer:

Besides the arranged marriage between your mother and father, do you know of any other arranged marriages? Like with maybe this group that came from Russia?

P.P.:

Oh, yes. Definitely. I know-

Interviewer:

It was going on, huh?

P.P.:

Yes. Definitely it was going on. I'm not going to quote any names, because I don't know if they'd be too happy if I say they were arranged, but I know, in this one particular group that I'm talking about now, I know that I know of three marriages arranged that worked out very nicely. I know that one of my mother's sisters, I know one of her daughter's marriage was arranged that worked out very well. That was nothing new then, except, of course now it's unheard of. 27:00Except I have a cousin in New York right now, from my father's side, that, I guess, oh, she's much, much younger than I am, but she married this very, very, very, crazy Orthodox boy, and she didn't know Orthodox because her family didn't necessarily follow it. She just arranged a wedding for her daughter. A 17 year old girl. And she has 10 children. She, herself, I guess maybe is 45, I don't know if you have 10 children you have money. And she says that all of her children's marriages are going to be arranged. They're going to marry who she wants them to marry. And she has just married off her first one who is every bit of 17 years old, still in high school. The girl saw the fellow three times, then they got married. Because of this arrangement that was made. And she says that she's going to arrange all of her children's weddings.

Interviewer:

Well, as a young girl growing up in that sort of a situation, how did you feel about that?

P.P.:

I think I didn't think too much about it. But this particular one I'm talking 28:00now is really hysterical, because she was a terribly spoiled child, and her family-

Interviewer:

Now, what's her name?

P.P.:

Her name was Phyllis O'Coon when she lived here.

Interviewer:

And she was a Louisville girl?

P.P.:

Oh yeah, yeah. She married somebody in the army, and he happened to be very religious. But she didn't know the word religion. And she just swallowed it up. And just loved it.

Interviewer:

Took to it?

P.P.:

Yeah. And her marriage was certainly not arranged, because it would have been the last one they would have wanted. They would not have wanted her to marry such an ultra religious boy that won't answer the telephone on Saturday, and what have you. But she absolutely loves him.

Interviewer:

And now she has 10 children?

P.P.:

I think she has 10, maybe on her 11th, I'm not too sure. But she says that, as a matter of fact the invitation, when I got the invitation to the wedding, it says women will wear proper attire at the wedding, which means you have to wear long sleeves, and have your head covered.

Interviewer:

I see.

P.P.:

It's almost hysterical knowing the background that she herself had.

Interviewer:

Are you going to the wedding?

P.P.:

The wedding has been. I couldn't have. I would have loved to have.

Interviewer:

Where was it held?

P.P.:

In New York.

Interviewer:

Tell me about your education.

P.P.:

My education was not too great. Unfortunately, you know, they talk about the middle child, and a lot of people think it's not true, but it is true. I had two older and two younger than me. My brother, older brother and older sister, they got a better education than I did because there was more time, there was more money. But-

Interviewer:

Well, how far did you go in school?

P.P.:

I went through high school.

Interviewer:

You graduated?

P.P.:

Yeah.

Interviewer:

From which school?

P.P.:

Atherton.

Interviewer:

How far away was that from your home?

P.P.:

That was riding distance.

Interviewer:

You rode on a bus, or what?

P.P.:

Most of the time my daddy took us, I remember. Picked us up.

Interviewer:

He had a car?

P.P.:

Oh yes, we always had a car. It was a [inaudible 00:29:50]. We had a car. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Interviewer:

Really? Well didn't that sort of make you wealthy, to have a car?

P.P.:

No, no, not at all. Everybody had cars. We're, literally I would say we were poor people, we're certainly not wealthy people. But first off, my dad needed 30:00the car for his business because he was, actually had a debit. I don't know if you know what a debit is, but a debit is going out in the neighborhoods and collecting the insurance payments. And you could not have a job like that without a car, this was impossible. But as I remember, Madison Street was not the poorest in Louisville, but they were fairly poor, but I think almost everybody had a car. I don't, almost everybody. Not a big car. I mean, the Old Model T, of course, but they had cars.

Interviewer:

So you did have one car?

P.P.:

Oh, yes.

Interviewer:

And your father drove you to school at Atherton?

P.P.:

My father most of the time would take us to school, I believe. I tell you, at my age you kind of forget, but I'm almost sure that he did. Public school, of course, we walked to public school.

Interviewer:

Which public school did you go to?

P.P.:

George W. Morris, on the corner of Fourth and Chestnut. We walked to Hebrew school because that was around the corner from us. We walked to Sunday school because that was close by. But when we got to the high school then we had to be driven, or take a bus, or what have you. But you're talking about education, 31:00see, now my brother and my sister went to piano lessons, went to violin lessons, they both did that, so that meant when the time came for me, it was kind of silly to waste any money because I wasn't going to practice anywhere. And truthfully, I would have liked to have gone on to school. I really and truly wanted more education.

Interviewer:

You mean to college?

P.P.:

To college, yes. But by that time, there was a younger brother and a younger sister, and unfortunately, they were very, very sick during their whole childhood. They were asthmatic, and it got to be a real hardship. The younger ones went to college, and the older ones did, but the middle one didn't get any advantages. My oldest sister didn't, but she didn't want to. But my younger sister and my younger brother went to college. And my older brother went to college.

Interviewer:

So you think that your basic obstacle to formal education was your birth position?

P.P.:

Oh, there's no doubt in my mind. Yes. If I had been the youngest or the oldest I would have gone. Because my mother was very, very educated. I mean, she felt it was more necessary for the boy, too, but she also felt it was necessary for the 32:00girl. By the time my youngest sister got of age things were a little bit better financially, and she was sent to college. And certainly the boys graduated college.

Interviewer:

So what did you do after you got out of high school?

P.P.:

Well, I went to work. As a matter of fact, it's very peculiar, because I've always been-

Interviewer:

Now what we were we talking about?

P.P.:

Is this running now?

Interviewer:

Now it's running.

P.P.:

We were talking about education. I said no, I know that had I not been the middle child, that I would, because my mother really felt very, very educated minded for her children. But there just was really no money, and I just had to go to work. Oh, you were asking me where I worked.

Interviewer:

Where you worked.

P.P.:

Yeah, I worked at Keneseth Israel for, I don't know, I guess a matter of three, or four, or five years. I don't really remember. Somehow or other I wasn't too 33:00excited about it. It wasn't, at that time they were much smaller, and it was kind of dull I guess. No, it really was. Now it's a very busy, active congregation. I left there and went to work for a private merchant for, I guess, a matter of three or four months, and I was really quite uncomfortable there. And a custom man was working at the old YMHA, and it was during the war years in 1941, when she got married before her husband went over seas, and I took over her job. And I remember so well her telling me that she hopes I don't work there as long as she did. She worked there six years, and I've been there 37 years now.

P.P.:

But so my whole life has really been, and I really have not had the experience of being with non Jewish people. Which, I think I have missed a little but, because when I lived on Madison Street, and went to school, I guess it was 95% Jewish kids. Jewish or Italian kids, in George W. Morris school. And I've always 34:00worked in Jewish organizations with Jewish people. And really and truly, so far as really ever having a non Jewish friend, or knowing a non Jewish person well enough to call them a friend, I have never enjoyed that experience because of where I went to school, and my home upbringing, and where I've worked. It seems kind of silly. But really, if you were to tell me to list five non Jewish friends, couldn't do it. Except with maybe girls that have worked in the office with me.

Interviewer:

Well, actually, I see you following in the footsteps of your grandfather, and your father's brothers, who also were active in their congregation, and that that was your whole life. And you practically are doing the same thing.

P.P.:

Probably so, without realizing that I'm doing it. I don't know whether circumstances came about that way, or whether that's the way I want it, I don't know. But certainly I've been happy-

Interviewer:

But that was the example in life that you were shown.

P.P.:

Oh yes. Well, everything went toward Judaism. In my mother's family, too. 35:00Because I'm sure you know the Criton family in Louisville, and they are all Orthodox, and all pillars of the church. Both sides of my family have been. Really, when we talk about being of Orthodox roots, I mean, there's no one of more Orthodox roots than I am. Even though I am not bragging about it, I've followed the Orthodox religion so far as certainly observing the holidays and what have you, but I'm not what you would call a religious fanatic at all. I believe in going to services, I enjoy services. I go to shul regular, well, as regularly as most people like myself do. My home is not strictly kosher, it's half and half. But of course, this has just been, my mother just passed away three years ago, and so until three years ago it was strictly kosher, of course.

Interviewer:

Your mother was living with you all this time?

P.P.:

I lived with my mother, yes, until three years ago.

Interviewer:

When did your father die?

P.P.:

My father died about 25 years ago.

Interviewer:

That was when? 19?

P.P.:

'52, I guess. Mm-hmm (affirmative). And then, again, the same mother, Clara, we lived together for, I guess, about 25 years, just the two of us.

Interviewer:

I see.

P.P.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). So that's why I said there was really never any difference. My mother was quite religious. And certainly a very, very Orthodox. She was, I think, the smart kind of religious. She did the things that she could do. She knew that she wasn't able to walk to services anymore, she just plain didn't go. She didn't ride, but she didn't make herself miserable by walking. She was sick, very sick the last four years of her life, and she knew when Yom Kippur came that she could not survive a day without eating, so she ate. And she was a smart religious kind of person. She really was.

Interviewer:

Do you, well, of course, it's by law, that one must not fast if it's life threatening.

P.P.:

That's right. Well, she believed in this, so she did.

Interviewer:

She was still following a law.

P.P.:

Yes, she believed in this.

Interviewer:

Getting back to education just for a minute, since you did not go, have any further schooling after high school, how about lectures and study groups and things like that? Did you do any of that sort of thing?

P.P.:

Not too much. What I really always wanted to do, my ambition was to be a nurse. I always wanted to be a nurse.

Interviewer:

Really?

P.P.:

Yeah, mm-hmm (affirmative). And of course, had I had a little more ambition I could have managed to become a nurse, after I went to work, and take courses at night. I didn't. But, of course, I think really through my work at the center, I mean, I've been thrown into this kind of thing, discussions and lecture groups. And when I was younger, I was quite active in the evening council-

Interviewer:

Council of Jewish Women?

P.P.:

Yeah, in the evening group. Very, very active. I took part of all that. And also a little active in Piadasa, but not nearly as much as council. And I was quite active.

Interviewer:

What did you like best about council work?

P.P.:

I think what I liked best was really, I guess, meeting with the people. There 38:00was a very lovely group of people at that time, and I was quite active in the shivah box program. And also in discussion groups.

Interviewer:

Would you describe the shivah box program?

P.P.:

It's been so long ago, I've been out of it for so long, that I really, I remember that it was, I think it's been taken over by a day group now.

Interviewer:

But, for the record, I would like you to say what it was.

P.P.:

Well, I'm trying to think. I know it was send boxes of toys, and what have you, to the under privileged over seas, but it's been so long ago, I really, I don't think that I would be accurate enough.

Interviewer:

You collected things and put them in boxes and sent them someplace overseas?

P.P.:

Yeah.

Interviewer:

But you don't remember if it was sent directly to the foreign country, or if it was sent to a central point and then distributed?

P.P.:

I think it was directly, but I can't be quoted on that, because I'm not sure. I wouldn't want to give an inaccurate description.

Interviewer:

Okay. Now, one more thing, about newspapers, your parents spoke a combination of 39:00Yiddish and English, what kind of newspapers, if any, came into the home?

P.P.:

Oh, both.

Interviewer:

Yiddish newspapers?

P.P.:

Yiddish newspapers, and the English newspaper. The morning and evening, the Sunday newspaper, and the Yiddish newspaper.

Interviewer:

And you could read the Yiddish newspaper?

P.P.:

I could not read the Yiddish, no, no.

Interviewer:

You couldn't?

P.P.:

No, ma'am. I can speak Yiddish, and understand it, but I was never taught to read Yiddish.

Interviewer:

What about reading Hebrew?

P.P.:

Hebrew I can read a little bit. I could, at one time, read it quite good. But now, if I follow with my finger and don't get lost, I can follow. When I get lost, I can't pick it up again. Yiddish I could never read.

Interviewer:

It was mainly an ear kind of thing with Yiddish?

P.P.:

Oh, definitely. I was never taught Yiddish, but it was like a child picks up English, so you picked up Yiddish exactly the same way. But I never had any formal education in Yiddish, where I did in Hebrew.

Interviewer:

Here in Louisville, was there ever any Yiddish theater?

P.P.:

Not that I remember, no.

Interviewer:

Do you remember the silent movies?

P.P.:

Oh, sure I remember silent movies. I also remember Yiddish theater when I went to New York, I mean, that was a must. But yes, I remember silent movies very well.

Interviewer:

Well, could you go to the silent movies on Saturday?

P.P.:

Well, yes, we did but what we did, well, number one, of course we didn't always have enough money to go, this is number one. But number two, what we did do, we would go on Friday and pick up our tickets, and pay for our tickets on Friday.

Interviewer:

No kidding?

P.P.:

Yeah. And take the ticket home, and therefore we could go the next day because it was within walking distance.

Interviewer:

Because of the law that says-

P.P.:

You can't carry money on the sabbath, and we didn't. As children we did not. We grew up very, very Orthodox. And we didn't ride on the sabbath.

Interviewer:

That's wonderful.

P.P.:

Of course, we could walk to the movies on Fourth Street at that time. And it was walking distance. On Friday we would walk over and buy our ticket for the next day. Which everybody on the block did. I mean, this was the thing the Orthodox did do.

Interviewer:

Did you go to services Saturday morning?

P.P.:

Oh yeah.

Interviewer:

And then went-

P.P.:

We would walk to, we'd go home and have lunch first, and then walk over to Fourth Street to the movies. With our little ticket in our hand.

Interviewer:

Isn't that wonderful?

P.P.:

Yes it is wonderful.

Interviewer:

That you were able to still do it, be different, but still be part of the community.

P.P.:

Yeah, and we were still observing our religion, we really were.

Interviewer:

Right. What about amateur theatricals? Did you ever do anything like that?

P.P.:

No, no, that never interested me at all. To this day it doesn't. I don't even like to see them.

Interviewer:

Do you remember the first sound movie you ever saw?

P.P.:

I don't. I should, but I don't. Yeah, I remember it, but I don't remember what it was. I remember it was the Strand Theater. It was at Strand Theater on Chestnut Street, near Fourth Street. And it was there. What was the first one that was ever made? That was the first one-

Interviewer:

I don't know.

P.P.:

You don't know? I don't remember either. But I do know that that I did see that at the Strand. And that was on Chestnut between Third and Fourth.

Interviewer:

And what did you think about it?

P.P.:

Oh my goodness, it was absolutely amazing. It was just, it was thrilling. It really was. It was so different. Because, well, the same way, really, with radios, I think that I remember when they had those transistor set of radios, and then when you got the set that you turned on where everybody could listen to 42:00it, that was pretty good, too.

Interviewer:

I'm trying to connect this with the use of microphones in the shul. Now, I don't know, I'm reformed, do you have microphones in the Orthodox congregation? I mean, who could turn them on?

P.P.:

The janitor turns them on, that's no problem.

Interviewer:

The janitor?

P.P.:

Yeah. But of course, there's many things that we don't do in the Orthodox that y'all do. I mean, we don't, naturally we don't have music, where you have an organ.

Interviewer:

Well, you have the canter, it's the same thing. I mean, the singing.

P.P.:

Yes, but-

Interviewer:

What I'm talking about is, do you remember when a sound system was first brought into the shul?

P.P.:

No, I don't remember.

Interviewer:

Because that must have been unusual also.

P.P.:

I don't remember that. It seems to me it always was, but I'm sure it wasn't.

Interviewer:

Right. And I wonder what kind of discussions there might have been as to whether it was acceptable or not.

P.P.:

I'm really wondering myself, because of course, as you know, years ago, the 43:00women sat way apart from the men. And at the old shul we sat upstairs way in the back, and I'm just wondering if we heard things. I don't really remember.

Interviewer:

If you heard things?

P.P.:

Yeah. I really wonder whether we heard the service. I don't remember. I really don't.

Interviewer:

Okay. If you didn't-

P.P.:

Without a sound system, how could we have heard it? I don't know.

Interviewer:

If you didn't hear, can you remember what you were doing while the service was going on?

P.P.:

Well, I remember the older women would always been dobbing. If you know what dobbing is, it's praying. They were evidently, but they were always asking everybody else what part they were on-

Interviewer:

What page it is?

P.P.:

Yeah, maybe we weren't hearing too good. I don't really remember. Because we, well, at that time, we were talking. The girls were talking to each other. Not necessarily following the service. But I think I remember that we would hear the Rabbi's speech. I don't know. This is a very good question.

Interviewer:

Was the speech in English or in Yiddish?

P.P.:

Well, years ago it was Yiddish. When Rabbi Zarchy, may he rest in peace, he 44:00spoke in Yiddish. He may be the only one that spoke in Yiddish. Occasionally I can remember rabbis quoting things in Yiddish, but Rabbi Zarchy, if I remember correctly, spoke in Yiddish, I believe. I think his speeches were in Yiddish.

Interviewer:

And you always had electricity in your house?

P.P.:

Oh yes, yes.

Interviewer:

So there was always electricity in the shul?

P.P.:

Oh yes, yes. Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yes. Definitely. Yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Interviewer:

Okay, I just wondered about that.

P.P.:

Yeah, we always had electricity.

Interviewer:

What about picnics and dances and stuff? Did that come through the Y? Or through the shul?

P.P.:

No, that mostly came through the Y. Of course, but I guess the best fun that any of us had that time was, it was so ungodly hot in Louisville those days, much hotter than it is now-

Interviewer:

Still is now.

P.P.:

So much hotter. And of course, none of us had air conditioning. When we got the electric fan it was really quite something. But we would all go out to Shawnee Park at night time, and take our blankets and pillows, and this was just a 45:00common thing, and picnic every night. Just the whole block. We would actually go to sleep out there until 2, 3 o'clock in the morning, until it cooled off.

Interviewer:

How did you get to Shawnee Park?

P.P.:

We had cars. Everybody had cars. Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. In my family, there were enough in my family to fill up a car, but other people would join their cars together. But we had a good sized family so we weren't able to take anybody else. But so far as, you're talking about picnics, well of course every shul used to have a big picnic once a year at Summer's Park.

Interviewer:

At which park?

P.P.:

Summer's Park. There's no longer a Summer's Park.

Interviewer:

Where was that?

P.P.:

It was out near Iroquois Park.

Interviewer:

I see.

P.P.:

But it's no longer there. But they had at least one annual picnic a year. Which they had a dance, as I remember, but they had the raffles, and the rides, and the game machines, and the money machines, and what have you. But this was every synagogue and every shul in the city, as I remember.

Interviewer:

Was that set up indoors, or outdoors?

P.P.:

No, that was outdoors.

Interviewer:

And certainly not on the shul property?

P.P.:

Oh, no, no, they all took part at Summer's Park. No, the shuls didn't have that kind of property. But any other social life, well, no, the shul had some, I remember, as youngsters. They had cotillions, already at that time, and-

Interviewer:

Cotillions, that's where they taught the sixth graders how to dance?

P.P.:

How to dance, mm-hmm (affirmative).

Interviewer:

Did they do that in your congregation?

P.P.:

Yes, they did, at Keneseth, mm-hmm (affirmative). And of course the Bar Mitzvah dances and what have you. But other than that, I think, of course we all went to the old YMHA because they were, again, we were within walking distance, and on Sunday that was the thing to do. We didn't go so much after school as the kids do today, but it was a much bigger Sunday program then, and we would go on Sunday.

Interviewer:

What about restaurants? If you were so kosher, how could you eat out?

P.P.:

Well, we didn't eat out.

Interviewer:

You never ate out?

P.P.:

No, not until we grew up. And when we grew up we ate out. As a matter of fact, when I was already working at the Y, a cousin of mine was working at the Y also 47:00for the armed services, and Ann Bush, I think you know Ann Bush, well, anyway she was working for Brith Sholom. We all came from very religious backgrounds. This cousin was my uncles that was really a fanatic. And we met every day for lunch, and we'd go over to Newman's Drugstore. That really is funny. I guess for two or three years.

Interviewer:

Where was Newman's Drugstore?

P.P.:

At Third and Broadway. And the Y was at Second and Jacob. And so we would meet for lunch every day, and we ate cheese and tuna fish until it was coming out of our ears. Actually, coming out of our ears. And everybody was afraid to tell the other one they ate meat. And finally, one day, I don't know who broke down, and we all ate meat out by that time, but we no one knew the other one did, and we were afraid to say it. And then we started eating hamburgers over there. It was hysterical. We laugh about it to this day. Oh, I know I didn't eat kosher until I went to work, non kosher, I mean. Well, even to this day I say my house is not strictly kosher, but I could not put a piece of bread with butter on it and eat 48:00meat at home for anything. I couldn't put any milk in my coffee, and eat it with meat at home. I do out.

Interviewer:

You do out?

P.P.:

Oh yeah, yeah.

Interviewer:

But at home you can't?

P.P.:

I'm just so used to it at home, that I just think it'd be sacraligious to my mother and father somehow. I don't know. I don't even think about it. It just doesn't come to my mind to do it. But I do out. And well, most of the Orthodox people do it now, too. And a lot of people say that this is hypocritical. I don't think it is. I think that any kind of religion that you observe, regardless of what it is, it's not hypocritical. I think that if you know that you're Jewish, and you practice the way you think best to me, is not being hypocritical.

Interviewer:

Well, you do what you want to do.

P.P.:

No, I mean some people say it's hypocritical to eat out and then not have it in your own home, but I don't think so. I think whatever semblance of religion you can still hold on to, that you hold on to that little bit that you can hold on to.

Interviewer:

Let me talk a little bit now about health. [foreign language 00:48:56], right?

P.P.:

Yeah.

Interviewer:

Health through cleanliness. Were there any bathhouses here in Louisville?

P.P.:

Yes there was. There was a bath house, I was never in the bathhouse, fortunately we always had a bath in our own house, but I remember it was on Preston Street, as a matter of fact it was near the Benet Yankov Shul. A lot of Jewish people did go to it. Now when my mother and father first got, at my grandfather and grandmother's house we had a bath. When my mother and father married we also had a bath. But it was shared, as a matter of fact, it's Mrs. Varna Linguist's mother and father lived downstairs from us. We rented from them. And we shared a common bath in that particular house, but that's the only time we ever shard, was in that house. But there was a bathhouse, yes, and people did use it. There were a lot of homes, well, on Madison Street everybody had baths, but I think on Preston Street a lot of them didn't have them. I do know it was used by Jewish people.

Interviewer:

But the toilets, every, did the houses have inside?

P.P.:

Oh, inside, yeah. Well, I do remember, now that you mention it, that when I lived with my grandmother and grandfather, of course I don't think I remember 50:00that far back, before they moved to 213 East Madison, they lived, or we lived farther down on Madison or Chestnut, I don't remember I was really a kid, but I do remember an outhouse there. I haven't thought about that in 100 years. But there was an outhouse, yes there was. But I guess, I couldn't have been more than two or three years old. But I do remember that outhouse.

Interviewer:

You were potty trained in an outhouse?

P.P.:

Yeah. Isn't that funny. I really haven't thought about that in so many years. But there was, mm-hmm (affirmative). There really was. But when they moved to, and I don't even remember the move because I just remember my life with them on Madison Street, really, except for isolated incidences, but I do remember there was an outhouse there, yes.

Interviewer:

So if there was an outhouse, then they had to use the bathhouse because there must not have been indoor plumbing.

P.P.:

I really can't remember. I just remember, I can just visualize the outhouse. That's all I can visualize.

Interviewer:

Right. That's very interesting, isn't it?

P.P.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). It really is.

Interviewer:

What about home remedies for health?

P.P.:

Well, the only thing I can really remember on that is when we wore all the bags of camphor around us for the big, big flu epidemic. But other than-

Interviewer:

What year was that?

P.P.:

Well, we were, that's when I was still living way down there, so that had to be, I was born in '14, it had to be '17, I guess. 1917 I guess.

Interviewer:

So you were three years old? You remember it?

P.P.:

Well, yes, I remember the bags of camphor. I do remember because it was so horrible. But I don't think, other than that, there were not too many home remedies. Other than those we use these days, with the honey and lemon and tea, and sugar, and that sort of thing.

Interviewer:

Did you know of anyone that died because of the flu epidemic?

P.P.:

Well, as a matter of fact, my mother's first husband died in the flue epidemic. But that's the only one that I know of.

Interviewer:

But no children, none of your friends?

P.P.:

No, not that I, of course I was so young that I wouldn't remember, but my 52:00mother's husband did die of the flu epidemic.

Interviewer:

What about clinics and dispensaries? Was there anything like that down there?

P.P.:

Well, there was, because Dr. Solomon, not the Dr. Solomon you know, I can't think of his first name, but Dr. Solomon had a clinic right on the corner of Brook and Chestnut. He was quite a doctor, and he was used quite extensively, and it was a clinic. But of course we had the general hospital right down in our footsteps, where we did use for emergency quite often because you got a cut finger you ran down to General Hospital.

Interviewer:

Really? You didn't go to to the doctor, you went to General Hospital?

P.P.:

Yeah, it was right there. You just ran to General Hospital, to the emergency. Now, if your mother or father were home you got taken to the clinic, most of the time. But when we got hurt, when nobody, although I don't ever remember a time when my mother wasn't home because they didn't believe in baby sitters, but we went to the general hospital quite often, to the emergency room.

Interviewer:

Yeah, but now hospitals were not kosher, so what would happen if somebody who was Orthodox had to go to the hospital? What would they do?

P.P.:

Well, we brought food in.

Interviewer:

I see.

P.P.:

Of course, now the Jewish hospital always had a kosher kitchen.

Interviewer:

And there was a Jewish hospital there?

P.P.:

Oh, at Floyd and Kentucky, yes. I think it's Floyd and Kentucky. There was always a Jewish hospital. But I know my family used the Deaconess Hospital for some reason-

Interviewer:

Which one was that?

P.P.:

Deaconess, they're no longer, they were on Eighth Street. And they were not kosher. But the food was always brought in.

Interviewer:

I see. That's how that was handled.

P.P.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Unless there was somehow a particular need for a special diet, or what have you, but there were a lot of the family lived around or near that hospital, and they saw that three meals a day were brought up there.

Interviewer:

Was there a drugstore nearby for drugs of any sort?

P.P.:

Oh yeah. Yes. Yes, there was, at Preston and Chestnut, Travers Drugstore. Yeah.

Interviewer:

And what about dentists?

P.P.:

Well, now we didn't go as religiously as you go these days, but we went to dentists.

Interviewer:

Was there a Jewish dentist?

P.P.:

No. We didn't go, we went to Dr. Hickerson who lived on Chestnut Street. That's who we went to. If there was a Jewish dentist, I don't know. That reminds me, I have an 8:30 dentist appointment tomorrow morning. You had to use the word dentist.

Interviewer:

What about eyes?

P.P.:

Eyes, I don't-

Interviewer:

Glasses. Did anybody-

P.P.:

My mother and father wore them, but the kids somehow never needed them. In my particular family, my mother was very health conscious, and a doctor was called for everything. Unfortunately her youngest two children were very asthmatic, and very allergic. There was old Dr. Halprin, as a matter of fact Rosie Brownstein's sister is married to his son. And he was our doctor. And people used doctors.

Interviewer:

His name was-

P.P.:

Halprin.

Interviewer:

Do you know his first name?

P.P.:

No. His son's name is Melvin, but I don't know his first name.

Interviewer:

Okay. Let's talk a little bit about the Zionist movement. Here you are, in a 55:00family surrounded by extremely Orthodox observant people. What about Mizrachi? Hadassah? The blue boxes?

P.P.:

Oh my goodness, Mizrachi, of course, and Hadassah, it was always my mother's love. And what we called the Miztvah box, or whatever we called it, was always there. And I mean, we always knew as kids that was a regular Friday evening ritual. As little money as we had, we had to put into the box. I don't think it was the blue box, it was just a box for poor people. No, it was a Hadassah box, yes it was.

Interviewer:

It was a Hadassah box?

P.P.:

Hadassah box. And my father was quite active in the Mizrachi movements. And my mother wasn't. Well, now I say active, my mother couldn't have been too active with five kids at home. But financially whatever little bit she could do, she did more than her share of. I'd say at that time they were already having women sharers and what have you. She saw that her contribution went in.

Interviewer:

Was there any sort of a workman's circle here in Louisville? I know there was in 56:00New York.

P.P.:

No. Not that I know of. I don't think so.

Interviewer:

Okay. And overseas relief? What did you do? Of course you took in this family of your mother's brother.

P.P.:

Yes, mm-hmm (affirmative).

Interviewer:

But what about sending money overseas?

P.P.:

I don't think there was any overseas relief. At that time, as I remember, it was more for local relief. Mrs. Altzman, that I mentioned before, used to be the kind of person that took care of all the locals. There was plenty of poor Jewish people that you had to take care of here. And she used to always go out collecting, or be out in the cemetery with her box for collection for the poor people of Louisville. Because everybody had their own families for overseas relief at that time. They did, they did.

Interviewer:

I know.

P.P.:

My mother, was like a second cousin of Barn Linker, they had common relatives over there, and he used to see to it, he would get up a family collection for our family overseas, but not for other people overseas.

Interviewer:

He would come to your mother and say-

P.P.:

Yes. So and so, our second cousin is in trouble and we're going to bring her over. She needs money. And then everybody would pitch in. But they knew who they were giving-

Interviewer:

It went specifically to a relative.

P.P.:

Yes, that's right. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Interviewer:

Okay. What about antisemitism?

P.P.:

We didn't know about antisemitism because we lived all in a little community of Jewish people. We never ran into antisemitism.

Interviewer:

What about at Atherton, when you went to Atherton?

P.P.:

No, I don't think so. There was so many of us Jewish kids there, that we never, I have never, personally, run into any kind of antisemitism. I would say growing up, we always lived in a Jewish neighborhood, so of course you could not have antisemitism. Jewish and Italian. Of course, there was no antisemitism there because we were all one. I've always worked in a Jewish grouping. I have never known any antisemitism.

Interviewer:

But the Italians are Catholic-

P.P.:

No, we were all such good friends, though, that it didn't, we were good friends. Mm-hmm (affirmative). In that particular section.

Interviewer:

And at that time, also.

P.P.:

We were all more or less the same financial setting, and we went to the same school, and we were very close, really.

Interviewer:

Yes, but there certainly never would have been a mixed marriage, would there?

P.P.:

Oh, no. Oh, no. You were ostracized.

Interviewer:

You want to talk a little bit about that?

P.P.:

No, you were ostracized if there was a mixed marriage. That just wasn't, growing up I don't remember any mixed marriages of people that I knew at that time. But-

Interviewer:

What about if a Jewish girl and an Italian boy? Forget it, huh?

P.P.:

You sat shivah for them. You literally sat shivah for them.

Interviewer:

Do you know of anyone that that happened to?

P.P.:

At that time, no, but I know I would always hear talk, as such, that this is what would happen. You would just forget you ever had a child, you would sit, yes, I do remember. I don't want to really use the name, but it was a Jewish butcher in town whose daughter married a non Jewish boy. I don't know if he was Catholic, or what, but they actually, I do remember. As a matter of fact she was about my age. And I knew her quite well. And her family actually sat a week a 59:00mourning, and you called on them as though they had lost a daughter. Because to them, they had lost their daughter.

Interviewer:

Is this girl still here in Louisville?

P.P.:

She's still here, and what's really very strange, now, is she's still married to this non Jewish man, but her mother and father have long passed away, and I see her at services all the time.

Interviewer:

She comes to Orthodox services?

P.P.:

She does now. I have never seen her husband in my life. But just in the last, I guess I'd say 10 years, I have seen her at Keneseth services.

Interviewer:

What about her children?

P.P.:

I don't know anything about her. I say hello to her when I see her, but I don't know anything else. And occasionally I run into her. When I do see her, I see her with a Jewish woman.

Interviewer:

A friend.

P.P.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. But you did, that would be the accepted thing, to sit shivah. But it really, it didn't happen hardly ever because at that time, I guess everybody still respected their mother and father's enough, or just didn't look outside. I mean, there was no such thing as a boy even dating a non Jewish girl. I mean, you just didn't do it then. You really didn't. If they did, then I 60:00don't know them. No, I mean that.

Interviewer:

Yeah. Political parties, political activity. Do you remember who you voted for the first time, in the first presidential election that you ever voted in. Do you remember that?

P.P.:

I think it was Roosevelt, I think I was that old when I first voted.

Interviewer:

And you were a democrat?

P.P.:

No, no, republican.

Interviewer:

You were republican, but you voted for Roosevelt?

P.P.:

Yeah, but then I remember I felt so bad, no, that was not my first election. I remember that a democrat good friend of mine, somehow or another I wasn't, I was registered, but they couldn't verify me, and he spent all day getting me verified, and then I voted the other way. I mean, he was republican, and I voted the other way.

Interviewer:

Oh, really?

P.P.:

But I was raised a republican, but I vote whichever way I want to vote.

Interviewer:

Right.

P.P.:

But registered, I am a republican.

Interviewer:

I meant back then.

P.P.:

I'm registered a republican. My brother, at one time, ran on the republican party. That was when I just became of voting age, and I-

Interviewer:

Your younger brother?

P.P.:

No, my older brother.

Interviewer:

Harn?

P.P.:

Yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative). He was running for House of Representatives, or something when I became of age to vote, and-

Interviewer:

Did you help support him in any way?

P.P.:

No, I was too young. I was never too much politically motivated in any way shape or form. See, this was not our custom in the house. I mean, my house was not too politically in any way. I think we all felt strongly for a person, but really not for a party.

Interviewer:

Do you remember where you physically went to vote?

P.P.:

No, no. You're talking to an old woman. I can't remember that long ago.

Interviewer:

Sure you can.

P.P.:

No, I can't.

Interviewer:

Oh, dear. Which president do you remember the most vividly? Or which one did you like or dislike the most?

P.P.:

I think Roosevelt was always my favorite.

Interviewer:

Sure, sure. Even now after we know what we know about him, huh?

P.P.:

That's right. That's right, yes.

Interviewer:

Because that was how you felt then.

P.P.:

Yes, mm-hmm (affirmative). And I remember when he died, I remember my Lord, my 62:00home practically sat shivah when he died.

Interviewer:

I know. I know.

P.P.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Interviewer:

Got a funny question for you.

P.P.:

Alrighty.

Interviewer:

Do you remember the first garment you wore that had a zipper?

P.P.:

No. No. That is a funny question. No, I don't.

Interviewer:

Well, I'm trying to use something to think about clothing.

P.P.:

The first thing I remember about clothing is when my, a blue starch dress that my mother to be made for my sister and myself with little pleats all around it, that was her introduction to us. When she came over she brought these little blue dresses. I can still remember. With the pleats around. And we were just so proud of those. And that was really her way of introducing herself to us.

Interviewer:

Were your clothes mainly made by your mother? Or did you ever go out and buy them?

P.P.:

I think she made most of them. She could sew very well. As a matter of fact, I still have, it was really quite strange, I didn't know this until my mom became 63:00ill, because she was very ill the last four years. We had an old, old sewing machine downstairs, and I once told her, I said "Mom, I don't know why we don't get rid of that machine. It's just so silly." And I didn't know that, she said "That's the only thing you have of your own mother's."

Interviewer:

Oh, for Heaven's sake.

P.P.:

I still have it here in the-

Interviewer:

Do you really? Was it a Singer?

P.P.:

A Singer sewing machine. Yeah.

Interviewer:

Foot pedal?

P.P.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). I have it here. But that-

Interviewer:

So she saved it for you. Isn't that beautiful? That is beautiful.

P.P.:

Yeah, she was the first one that, on the holidays to say, I mean she taught me how, my mother, she took my and showed me my mother's grave. It was really-

Interviewer:

Where is it?

P.P.:

It's here.

Interviewer:

On Preston Street?

P.P.:

Yeah, on the old, but on Preston Street.

Interviewer:

That's really something. What do you think about the returning, maybe, to these extended families living together? How do you feel about it? When two and three 64:00generations live close together, like on the same street, and help to raise the children?

P.P.:

I just don't think that would ever be possible anymore. I mean, I think we've all gotten so independent and want to live our own lives. And fortunately we've all gotten more affluent, and like different things, I just don't think it would be workable at all. We didn't know anything then, except family. And except, you know, to sit around in the evening, and talk and joke, and play the Victrola and what have you. But now, with everything that we have, I think that all of our, we've just grown away from each other. We still get together for happy occasions, and God forbid, sad occasions, but I don't think it could ever work like it used to.

Interviewer:

15th, 1977, and I am interviewing Pauline Pearson. This is the second part. And this will focus on the development on the Jewish Community Center, and what Pauline knows about it. Pauline would you, let's talk, recapitulate, you said 65:00you started working at the center in 1941?

P.P.:

You have a good memory. That's correct.

Interviewer:

Under what circumstances did you take the job?

P.P.:

It so happens my cousin had the job before me, and she was downstairs from me, and when the war started, she was going to get married later on in the year, but before the war started they decided to get married before her husband was called overseas. I was working, at the time, at a job that I disliked very, very much. I had just been there, maybe a couple of months. When she told me that she was going to leave, and I went to apply for the job. That was in 1941. And this is 1977, and I'm still there.

Interviewer:

Who was it that you applied to? Who was the director of the center?

P.P.:

Lawrence Cooke was, at that time, was called General Secretary. Lawrence Cooke was the General Secretary, and I worked for him, I think for a year or two. And then he went into the service. Al Erwin, who had the Jewish Social Service 66:00agency filled in temporarily while he was in service for a couple years, and until Lawrence came back.

Interviewer:

And where was the center located at that time?

P.P.:

It was at Second and Jacob at that time. It stayed there until we moved in 1954.

Interviewer:

And do you remember what kind of activities were offered there?

P.P.:

Yeah, I remember quite well. It was, of course, a much, much smaller scale than now. We had, if I remember correctly, only really one trained professional social worker, and that was Harold Katz, he was called boys worker. Renetta Mare was there, who was not a trained worker, but had been there many years, and she was called girls worker. Harry Comb, who was a professor phys ed director, I believe, was the phys ed director. And that really encompassed the whole professional staff, or program staff, as I remember. There were gym classes. At that time, there were ballet classes for children. Margaret Freelander was the ballet instructor at that time. And that was just about the, I guess that was 67:00about all, no, there were many, many clubs. That's right. Clubs were big then. At that time they were all led by volunteer leaders. They had boys clubs and girls clubs. And of course, the whole thing was different. You could belong to as many clubs as you wanted to at that time. Clubs were big then.

Interviewer:

Who were members of the club?

P.P.:

Well, at that time, we weren't, people did not necessarily have to be a member of the YMHA to belong to the club, but it was the senior high boys and girls, as I remember. They were not necessarily AZA oriented the way they are now, although there were several AZA groups. But they were just regular, just whatever name you want to give them, they were clubs.

Interviewer:

Well, now, was this only the Orthodox community, or did it involve all the Jewish people?

P.P.:

It involved all the Jewish people. If I remember correctly, though, at that time, the reformed members not coming around nearly as much as they are now. Because they were the wealthier people of Louisville, and they lived a little bit further out. The YMHA was located downtown. And I would think that most of 68:00the people that came to YMHA didn't live too far away from it. It was more or less like a meeting place that you went to after school or on Sundays. But I don't think they came from too far away, if I remember correctly. But it was very busy, even in those days. Quite, quite busy.

Interviewer:

Do you have any idea how old the center was, or the YMHA was, at the time you started working there?

P.P.:

Well, I don't remember exactly, but it was originated in 1890, so we want to be able to figure it was, yeah, I don't know how old it was right off the bat.

Interviewer:

Did it start in the very beginning, at Second and Jacob?

P.P.:

No, as I recall it didn't start there. That I'm sure of. I'm not, it was at First and Walnut before Second and Jacob. I think that probably was the first place, I'm really not too sure. The Anshei Sfard Synagogue was right around, close. I think that might have been the first building. From there they probably moved to Second and Jacob, but I'm not sure. My recollection, first recollection, is Second and Jacob.

Interviewer:

Can you give me some kind of description of what the building looked like?

P.P.:

Yes, I remember it very well. You walked into this big lobby, to the right was the library, it was a very, very important part of the building. Because in there, other than books, they had the visual aids that they used to use in the public libraries, where you looked through these lenses at different pictures, and what have you. It was a very popular spot. It was more a gabbing spot for people, but it was basically used as a library. They had the table where the people, or the kids would study in there. The front office was as you walked in. It was different than it is now, they had the lock boxes right there where the people would go to gym class would come and get their card and pick it up.

P.P.:

The auditorium was on the main floor. Then on the second floor there were, yeah, there were three floors. The second floor was the gymnasium with the track that we don't have now. Meeting rooms. And the third floor was a game room. And the basement was what they called the hand maker lounge. It was a big meeting, dining room, and the kitchen was downstairs. And that was about, no outside 70:00facilities at all. They did have, at the time was handball, of course now everything's racket ball. They did have handball courts, and it was quite a popular activity.

Interviewer:

When you say that there was a kitchen downstairs, was there anyone in charge of the kitchen? I assume it had to be kosher.

P.P.:

Yeah, it was kosher. There was no one really, as I remember, no one was paid to be in charge of it, but Aunt Betty, a blessed memory, was the lay person that saw to it that it was kosher. She was really primarily responsible for any kind of function that came out of the kitchen. But I don't think we had a paid person supervising it.

Interviewer:

Was this a volunteer position on her part?

P.P.:

Yes. It was definitely a volunteer position. She was quite active in the center. She was on the board, and she was in charge of the kitchen remained kosher. She was there quite often.

Interviewer:

Do you remember any special, or exciting, activities that happened at the Y that you want to talk about?

P.P.:

Well, I guess probably the biggest thing at that time, because it was right during the height of the war when I came there, was the USO program. Because that's when the boys just came in by the rows and by the thousands. They spent 71:00the night there on Saturday night. Everything became a dormitory on the second floor. The gym was turned over to dormitory. The boys were housed there. I don't think there was a charge for it, I don't remember. But they slept. They came in on Saturday evening, there was a big open dance every Saturday night, which practically every girl in Louisville went to. This is where so many girls got married as a result of these boys coming in. And that was every Sunday morning there was a big brunch, and they used to come in by the hundreds and hundreds.

P.P.:

During the holiday times, there was some hospitality, at which time, literally, they would be waiting on the outside to come in. There were so many of them that they couldn't even get into the building. This was probably, during the war years, I guess had to be the most exciting thing because everybody was all at the war effort, and it was really geared to servicing, certainly serving Louisville, but on weekends, the service men.

Interviewer:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Now the library which you talked about, did anyone special 72:00run it?

P.P.:

No, as I remember it was open, but there were many reference books there that were used and used well. I think, I suppose the executive director, the general secretary, was responsible for it. I don't remember. But I do remember sitting around there for discussion groups, the reference room and what have you, it was used quite a bit.

Interviewer:

When the boys were put up for the night, what did you use for beds?

P.P.:

They were cots. I don't remember. Evidently we rented cots. I don't know why, we very likely bought cots, because it went on for a number of years. And there was a janitor hired strictly to set the cots up at night, and we had the pillows and the bedding and everything. And take it down in the morning. I think, if I remember correctly, it was a small fee. Maybe a quarter a bed. I don't really remember. But the whole gym was filled with beds, and I think sometimes they overflowed, probably, into the hallways even. Of course, then, naturally there were the showers downstairs, and then brunch in the morning, so they were set 73:00for the weekend.

Interviewer:

And these boys were from Fort Knox? Or other places also?

P.P.:

Maybe 99% were from Fort Knox, but occasionally they would come in from Camp Campbell, or other neighborhoods where maybe they didn't have a Jewish community. They were not all Jewish boys, but 95% of them were. Of course, some would bring in non Jewish friends, and they were certainly accepted.

Interviewer:

How did they know that these facilities were available at the Y?

P.P.:

Well, there's a chaplain on post, and all information went out to the chaplain, and they had Friday night services there. And this information was distributed to them through their own captains and through their own barracks, and what have you. But they were well aware because they all came in. Well, they were brought in by bus, also. They didn't have to get in on their own. They were brought in by bus, and taken back by bus, as I remember.

Interviewer:

The army took care of that?

P.P.:

Yes. The army took care of that. Now, this is to my recollection. I will not promise this is exactly what happened. But I know they came in.

Interviewer:

I see. And then after the war, then what happened?

P.P.:

Well, really, after the war, well, we were always busy, but after the war, of course, until a few years ago when there was a volunteer army, they were still coming in. They were not necessarily being housed, they were starting to get paid more money, at that time they were making, I think, $21 a month, so of course they couldn't stay at hotels then. But after the war, I think we quite using the dormitory cot thing, and very few, very, very few men were coming. And it went back to the normal routine of YMHA. And, of course, there was always the armed services, and we always took care of them, but as it dwindled down, we picked up more on our own Sunday activities.

Interviewer:

Can you name any names of young men who ended up staying in the Louisville community because of what the Y offered them?

P.P.:

Well, without thinking real hard I can't, but the one outstanding one that I think was the greatest thing ever happened to Louisville was Joe Fineman, who was stationed at Fort Knox. And as a result of being stationed at Fort Knox, remained in Louisville, and as you probably know, he's vice president of the center now, and very active in every organization. This was really, really a 75:00great asset to Louisville, that this man remained in town. There were many more. Ardev Frankl, is married to Janet Frankl, I'm almost sure he ended up here as a result of being in the service. There are many, but I don't think, I think Joe Fineman is really the outstanding one that comes to mind.

Interviewer:

Well, he's fairly young, though. I don't think he was from World War Two.

P.P.:

I think he was. I think at the very end, though, probably. I think he was. He's very young, compared to me, but I think he was at the very end of World War Two. I'm quite sure he was. Of course, I mean, there was a draft, so he may have come as a result of the draft. I don't remember.

Interviewer:

Then, after, let's see there's about 10 years between the time of the end of World War Two, and the time that the Y moved to its new location and became a center. Now, can you give me an idea of what happened those 10 years, and the decision to move the center?

P.P.:

Well, I guess the real decision to move the center was the fact that Arthur 76:00Clink was so farsighted and realized that we were outgrowing ourselves there. Parking was very, very limited there. A lot of people couldn't come because of the parking situation. You would have an affair, let's say, for the community, and the community might come, but couldn't find a parking spot, and just went on. Also the fact that the Jewish community was definitely moving out towards the eastern part of the city. Of course, when the site of Duchmans Lane was chosen, personally I thought that everybody was out of their minds. Never dreaming the Jewish population would ever get out this far. But it seems like they were farsighted people, and very smart people, that chose the location. Because goodness knows they couldn't have done better at the time.

P.P.:

But so far as activities down there were concerned, they went on. I mean, gym classes went on. At one time we had a great varsity basketball team, that was a city wide team, that played in a city league, that was a big, big thing down there. They played in a regular, almost professional type. That was really big 77:00at the center that time. Our ballet classes were quite large at the time. And then again, we have to get back to clubs. We had, for instance I remember, old time girls club, they did great things for the community. I remember they, at very many welfare things, I don't remember just what they were, but they were very, very active, and went on for years, and years, and years. And this was largely responsible for Renetta Mare, because she was very good at this sort of thing.

Interviewer:

Who was that?

P.P.:

Renetta Mare. That may have been before your time. Well, Renetta's still living. Unfortunately she's in a nursing home, so things haven't gone too well for her. But it was a busy place. It was always jumping. Even then. With the kids. The adults came down quite a bit. We had lectures at that time. We had a very, very popular forum series. I remember Marshall Bensinger, may be rest in peace. I guess at my age you have to say to everybody rest in peace, but he held those at Brith Sholom Temple because we couldn't take care of the crowd. Brith Sholom was 78:00the next block. But I really imagine that the main reason for starting to look for a new site, was not only the fact that the Jewish population was getting bigger, some of the servicemen did remain, and with GEO you get many more Jewish people, and also I do think probably the main thing was the terrible, horrible parking conditions, and also the fact that it was getting a little bit dangerous for kids to come down there by themselves. Parents were not too happy about it.

Interviewer:

The neighborhood, then, was changing?

P.P.:

The neighborhood was definitely changing at that time. Yes.

Interviewer:

And who was moving in?

P.P.:

I think a lot of transient people, rooming houses, and this sort of thing. These big homes down on First, Second, and Third Street were turning into rooming houses, rather than the old estates and the houses. There used to be very rich families in there, and they made smaller apartments and rooming houses.

Interviewer:

Where was the Jewish population moving to?

P.P.:

They were moving to the lower Highlands, and to the Douglas Boulevard area. That was considered the upper house by that time. Eastern Parkway was getting quite a 79:00few of them. And I think very little farther than Douglas. When you got out to Douglas you had really hit the heights, I do believe. But on Bardstown Road a little bit, Eastern Parkway was getting quite a bit of the traffic. Small streets in between Roanoke, Rutherford, and all those side streets.

Interviewer:

How did this effect the Orthodox population, who theoretically shouldn't drive to temple, to shul on Saturday?

P.P.:

Well, a lot of the Orthodox people at the time would rent hotels downtown, and literally stay in hotels. And they would bring their food with them.

Interviewer:

Every Friday night?

P.P.:

Oh, no, I didn't say Friday night. They wouldn't necessarily go to temple on Friday night.

Interviewer:

I mean, for Saturday?

P.P.:

For Saturday they just wouldn't go, but for the holy days they would rent rooms in the hotels. But the Orthodox was not moving out here as much as the conservatives, and reformed. The Orthodox were the last to move.

Interviewer:

I see. Well, now, when did the Orthodox move? After their congregation? Or at the same time?

P.P.:

They probably moved before the congregation, that's probably the reason for the 80:00congregation moving. But by that time, the Orthodox were beginning to ride on the sabbath, and they were not nearly as they used to be. Today, of course, they all ride. There are a few people still that walk, but I guess 95% of them are riding now. And they were starting to ride then. And I think the congregation probably came up because of people moving, rather than vice versa.

Interviewer:

When the center bought the property on Dutchmans Lane, did the congregation buy at the same time, or was that afterwards?

P.P.:

No, no, the congregation bought several years afterwards. As a matter of fact, they bought some of the center land. There was not enough land there for them. And as I remember we sold about five acres of our land. They came, definitely, as a result of the center. When the center went out there, that was all country land out there. There weren't no houses or anything. And I thought we were really going to the wilderness, and they just started popping up like crazy all around us.

Interviewer:

In what ways did the Y change into the center? I mean, first of all, what 81:00changed the name? How did the people change?

P.P.:

Well, changed the name, of course, happened a long time ago, because the YMHA literally meant Young Men's Hebrew Association, which it really was, I understand, when it first opened, because they were definitely more or less an athletic association for young boys and for men. But of course it grew to encompassing everybody, boys, girls, men, women. And the name YMHA no longer suited it. And all over the country they were changing to Jewish Community Center, so it was just natural that when it moved it became Jewish Community Center, because it was the center for all activities.

Interviewer:

Okay. We were talking about how the organization changed over the years. And one of the things I want to ask you about is the clothes that young people wear. Has it changed at all through the kids that you see at the center?

P.P.:

Oh, my heavens. Yes. As a matter of fact, when they used to come to the center 82:00they'd come dressed. Going to the center really was a social thing to do. It was not just a, even though it was a hangout, but you dressed up. Well, of course, everybody dressed up, I guess, for everything. But on a Sunday afternoon, I remember even as a child, that I personally went to the center in Mrs. Stein's class. It was more or less a drama class, but it encompassed a lot things. And we wore our Sunday best to go to the center. We always got dressed and went. Now, I'm talking about when I was a kid. I'm not talking about when I was working there. As a child, we got dressed up to go to the center.

P.P.:

But, when I was working there, they did come dressed, too. A lot of things, much more went on on Sunday than during the week, because it wasn't too easy to get there during the week. And they came dressed in Sunday school clothes. And all these shorts, and jeans, of course the kids were not wearing them, then, naturally. And they were going to school dressed more properly than they are now, or more formally shall we say. And they certainly came to the center dressed more formally than they do now.

Interviewer:

And do you think that the change in clothes, in clothing styles, effected their 83:00behavior at all?

P.P.:

I don't think it was necessarily the change in clothing styles, but their behavior has certainly been effected. I know when I used to come in, it was always ma'am, and please, and may I. And now, what they come in with is ridiculous sometimes. There's no such thing as please, or may I, or would you please, or thank you. It's give me this, and give me that. And the four letter words, and all this sort of thing. And I don't think necessarily it's the change in clothes, it's just the change in kids in particular. I guess the affluence probably has something to do with it, they have everything they want. Which, they didn't then. When they came to the center, or the old Y, they had enough in their pocket to buy a piece of candy and this is as far as they went. They come in now and need change for a dollar bill or a five dollar bill. I don't think it's necessarily the change in clothes, but their attitude with respect toward the center or the old Y certainly has changed. They don't seem to, I'm even talking about the elders. Even the building itself, I don't think they would 84:00have done to the old building what they will do to the new building now. The kids are just wilder now than they were then.

Interviewer:

Well, what do you think has created this change in attitude?

P.P.:

Well, probably, I imagine as most things, is that my parents, and my contemporary parents, were old fashioned, and the kids were not spoiled like the younger parents started spoiling their children. We didn't, we knew nothing except to be polite, and except to ask for things in the right way. Where, as children got younger, and people think that children should have been given more opportunity to do what they please, as they please and when they please, where we were not given that opportunity. Where it's a good opportunity or a bad opportunity is not for me to say, but we just were taught differently than they are now.

Interviewer:

Yeah, we were talking at one time about transient Jews, and then also transient other people. In a way, young people have been drifting all along. Have you been in contact at all with young Jewish people that have drifted in and out of the community?

P.P.:

In and out of the community? I don't think so. I know some young people drift out of the community rather than in, while I'm sure it works both ways, because they want to get away from their parents and go to another city and be out on their own. But the young ones drifting in, I think that we're probably not seeing too many of the young ones until they really get settled, and get married, and have children. But the drifting out, I just know from personal acquaintances, and children of people that I know, that when they get out of college don't want to come back home, so they go to another city and settle in another city. Which I'm sure is happening here, but I don't think we at the center are getting too much of them right now.

Interviewer:

Well, what about children dropping out of school? Did that ever happen in the 40s and 50s? And if so, why?

P.P.:

I don't think they dropped out of school very much then. Of course, I don't think the Jewish children are dropping out of school right now, unless it's college. But in the 40s and 50s, I think that the kids were glad if they could afford to go to school, and stay in school. Of course, the opportunities were 86:00not there for the college education like today, but certainly, through high school I don't remember them dropping out, unless they were unfortunate to have some kind of mental defect or something. But I don't think they were dropping out of school then. I don't think they're dropping out of school now, as Jewish kids, unless it's the colleges.

Interviewer:

Do you think that the center was in any way a force in keeping the kids in school?

P.P.:

Oh, I know that the center was a force at keeping them in school, and keeping them out of trouble, because to quote Al [Earlin 01:26:32] we, in Louisville, have been very fortunate to have so few Jewish delinquents, and I really think because the center. Because they had a place to go to. They had a game room to go to there. They didn't have to go to pool hall to shoot pool. They certainly, over the course of the years, now I remember Harry [Cohn 01:26:47], he was our athletic director at the time, I mean, he was everybody's buddy, and if a kid even thought about dropping out of school, I mean, he saw that they didn't. I think they were a dynamic force, and I think there's no doubt that they've always been a force. And the fact that we do not have too many juvenile 87:00delinquents, unfortunately of the later years, a situation came in where the center tried to be effective but I guess [inaudible 01:27:13] was more effective than the center. But in the old days, I do think it was really a real force. I really do. Because otherwise, the kids would have had to hang around drugstores, there was no place to go, or pool parlors. They hung around YMHA, and it certainly did them only good, not bad.

Interviewer:

What about the Jews who did not participate in the center? Do you know anything about that?

P.P.:

I mean, people that I knew did participate. At that time, a membership was not a criteria the way it is now, because it didn't cost nearly as much to operate. The staff was much smaller. Much, much, much more was done by volunteers. We had very little paid help, other than the full time help. The club leaders, the game room leaders, so many people did do volunteer work then. Things have changed. 88:00People volunteer in different areas, and not something to which they're tied down to everyday. I really forgot what the original question was.

Interviewer:

The question was, well, let me rephrase it. Was the Orthodox community, the kids that were participating in the Y, were they aware of the other Jews in the community that were not participating? What was the relationship between-

P.P.:

They probably, we didn't know. Just putting myself in this position, because I was in the Orthodox community, with and around Orthodox people, and I knew where the reformed temples were, and that, but I don't think I really thought too much of it. Going back to my own childhood. Now, when I think I was actually working there, I think by that time we were getting more of the reformed element. But the reformed element, I think, probably in their own temples probably were having more youth groups than the Orthodox was. I'm really not too sure.

Interviewer:

Well, I was wondering if there was any competition for the time of the young people between the center or the Y, and the various congregations?

P.P.:

No, I couldn't see any competition there at all, because the center was open to everybody. And time wise, there was certainly no competition. And as far as I know, there may have been equality between the two segments. But like I said, being of the Orthodox segment, I was always with the Orthodox kids. And maybe I didn't even know the others. Maybe they were there and I didn't know them. I know I'm switching from my own childhood to my working days there. But I do think we were more or less inclined to get the Orthodox and the conservative. And of course the standard played a part in it too, because some of the Jews in Louisville, whether they be Orthodox, conservative, reformed, thought it was demeaning to have their kids come there. I mean, actually, not a whole lot of people, but some people felt it was rather demeaning, they would rather have their child go out to the club and participate in an activity at the club rather than come down among all the people. Among the common people, some say.

Interviewer:

Really. Well, in what way did they feel it was demeaning?

P.P.:

Well, first of all, the neighborhood was not good. It was already not good then. That was number one. Number two, we had many poor people, I mean, a lot of the Orthodox were poor kids. I'm not sure all of them, but mostly Orthodox because at that time I think the Orthodox population was probably larger than the reformed or conservative. And being in the neighborhood where it was located, which was already not a good location. And also the fact that the more affluent Jews were living farther out. And it was more difficult to get them, even though they had cars, but it was much more time consuming. We didn't have expressways, and what have you, and they just didn't come as much. I don't believe they did.

Interviewer:

Do you think that the advent with the USO dances, with all these soldiers there, might have helped to bring the reform into the Y?

P.P.:

Yes, it did so far probably as far as girls were concerned, but naturally not the boys. Although, of course the servicemen, it didn't make any difference 91:00since they were whatever they were, but I guess it did so far as the girls were concerned. Because the girls really, unless they came there, because all the Jewish, so many of the Jewish boys were in the service, and there was practically no one to date unless you did come to the service club and meet a service man.

Interviewer:

Did the building itself start to get too small for the number of people that were participating? Or was it simply the parking?

P.P.:

I think it was the parking, I think, was a factor. The people were moving out. And probably were coming in less because it was more difficult to come in. And also, the fact that we did not have any outdoor facilities. We needed many more facilities than we had.

Interviewer:

Who do you think helped to influence the development of the center in the way it is today?

P.P.:

Well, I think that Arthur Klingcertainly did more for the center than anybody in Louisville. I mean, he was the one that, no, I think the idea of a new center, 92:00of a new building, really originated with Sydney Apple. He was the president, I believe, that the idea of a new building came to be. And of course there were many people influential in it, James Levy, Dan Big, Sydney Rosenbloom, these were all people that chaired the various campaigns to raise the money for it, but I really think the let work was done by Arthur Kling. I think Arthur Kling was the most farsighted one, knowing what we would need, where we should be located. Where we were going, and what we should do.

Interviewer:

What sort of people were these leaders?

P.P.:

Now, are you talking about the Orthodox, reformed?

Interviewer:

All of them. The ones that were leading the change, and the move to Dutchmans Lane.

P.P.:

Yeah, well, these were, I don't have to tell you, rather affluent people, because otherwise they would not have been in position to get money from other people. As I recall they were all of the reformed element, and of course everyone helped in the campaigning, in the committee structure, and what have 93:00you. But they were all active in the community already, naturally, and they were affluent people, and they were all of the reformed element, now that I think about it. Sydney Rosenbloom, James Levy, Sydney Apple, Arthur Kling, the more I think about it, the more they really were.

Interviewer:

Isn't that interesting, then, that the reformed led the movement away from downtown.

P.P.:

Yes, I never thought of that in those terms, but the more I'm sitting here thinking about it, it really was. Because there were people who I was really not familiar with at all talking the board there. Of course, by that time I knew them all. But before I came to work at the center, I had never heard of these people. I didn't know these people. But yeah, I would have to think that they probably were the biggest force behind it.

Interviewer:

And do you have any idea as to why they were doing this?

P.P.:

Because they were community minded people. I think no other reason. That was all.

Interviewer:

Do you, can you think of any stories or anecdotes that might illustrate the 94:00behavior of any one of these guys while all this was going on?

P.P.:

No, I don't think so. It was too serious of a business with them. It really was nothing like that. It was really serious business. I mean, there was a lot of money involved, and there was a whole community involved. I mean, they were concerned that everybody in the community, for instance, we didn't have room there for the council of Jewish women, they used to meet at temples, or what have you, and they were really concerned there be a center for all Jewish activities in the city.

Interviewer:

Was there any opposition?

P.P.:

No, as I recall there was not opposition. They even went so far out as to get the Hebrew school involved to be housed in the building immediately. They got all the Jewish organizations involved. I don't think there was any opposition at all.

Interviewer:

Were there any events that might have created a crisis at any time when this was going on? The selling of the building, or anything like that?

P.P.:

I imagine the biggest crisis came when Judge Washer left us a piece of property. As I remember, at Fifth and Kentucky, or somewhere around that area, to be used as a site for the new building. I don't remember how many acres it was, and there was buildings on there, but he donated for a site for a new building. It was donated with the understanding that it be used for a building. And of course, the Y at the time, grabbed it. Again, I have to bring Arthur Kling into it. Arthur Kling fought this, and this was a fight because here was all this land for nothing. And Arthur Kling said in no way could we go there because we were not going to serve any purposes. The community was moving out to east end, we would not be helping anything. And this, I imagine, was the biggest crisis in the whole thing. There were some people talking, because, the way it was, we could not sell the land. The money would not belong to us. We either took it for our building, or lost it. And we ended up, oh, if we could take it and then sell it there would have been no crisis. But we ended up losing the building.

P.P.:

It them became, I think it's a park there now, in his memory. I'm not too sure. But this was a big deal, because it involved lot of money. But if they hadn't been farsighted enough as to refuse this gift, we'd have been in a bad way now, because the building would have been downtown in a horrible location. This was the biggest crisis that they had, I think.

Interviewer:

I think that is a crisis. Do you remember what year that was?

P.P.:

Well, we moved in '54. I would have to think probably around '47, '48. I don't know.

Interviewer:

After the war.

P.P.:

Oh, yeah. Definitely after the war. Mm-hmm (affirmative). But that really was the biggest crisis. And one of the other big, big things was the idea of a sloping floor auditorium or a straight auditorium, which sounds ridiculous, but it was a big, big thing. There was a lot of opposition, a lot of open meetings as I remember to one as opposed to the other. They went for the straight floor so it could be a multiple purpose room, which all the rooms were supposed to have been at the time.

Interviewer:

Crisis that effected the center. You said that one was the bait of a piece of property on Fifth and Kentucky that was hard to refuse, but the community refused it, and the second was whether the auditorium should be a straight floor, and be multipurpose, or a slanted floor just for an auditorium.

P.P.:

That's correct, yes. Mm-hmm (affirmative). It sounds like a ridiculous crisis, but I remember just a lot, a lot of problems in that, due to the fact that people weren't going to give the building to the building fund, and this sort of thing, unless it happened. These are people that are in theater.

Interviewer:

Oh, I see. Well, was there a large theater group? An active theater group?

P.P.:

Yes, at the time we had an active theater group downtown, and these were the people that were really fighting this thing.

Interviewer:

Just off the top of your head, how do you think it worked out?

P.P.:

I think it worked out for the best. I think it definitely worked out for the 98:00best. Because we have the performance in there, and you can see pretty good. It would have been a big expense to keep a big, big room just for whenever you had a performance of some kind.

Interviewer:

And how about the kitchen at the center? I know that someone has been in charge of it for a while, hasn't there?

P.P.:

Oh yes. We definitely have, what we call, you probably don't know the word Mashgiach, that means the person that supervises it. There is someone down there.

Interviewer:

This is a full time job?

P.P.:

Yes, mm-hmm (affirmative). She's there whenever there's any kind of affair going on. And now, she wasn't there for a while, but now with our new program going on, and with the day group being in the building now, it is a full time job. She's there every day.

Interviewer:

Okay. And now let's talk about how the membership at the center has changed from 100% Jewish, to, well, what is the percentage?

P.P.:

Well, I don't know what the percentage is right off. It changes so much. And right now, we're in the middle of collecting our dues for this year. We won't know for a few months what it is. But, even downtown we had some non Jewish 99:00members. Not a lot, but mostly because of this big, big basketball team. It was big in the city. We had non Jewish members. We had non Jewish members that came to play handball with Jewish members. When we moved out to the new building, we naturally got more, but our Jewish membership became much, much bigger, too. As I remember, the biggest, one time at the old building, we had a big, big membership draft because we needed members bad. We needed money. We reached 500, and that was an all time peak. We moved into this building, our peak should have been 1,800 units, according to what the Jewish welfare board had advised us. We could serve this size building, this size staff. But because of financial reasons we ended up with as many as 2,300 units because we kept needing more money. The only way to get more money was to get more members.

P.P.:

Truthfully, we are a United Way agency, we are non secretary, we are here to serve the community, and we have to have a lot of non Jewish members. But we 100:00find, as a rule, they don't stay too long. We have some that have been there since we started, but a non Jewish member will join for two, three, four years, and then maybe move to a complex that has its own swimming pool and tennis courts. They really join, mostly, for the phys ed activities. They are not interested in, phys ed, and maybe some classes for their children. But other than that, they don't participate too much. They're active, when their active, they're very active, and have their kids enrolled in many classes. But as soon as the kids outgrow it, or as soon as they find a place where they can go swimming, most of them leave us for swimming. But we take on some and lose some every year.

Interviewer:

Was there any sort of policy crisis when so many more non Jews wanted to become members?

P.P.:

I think this is a little bit confidential, and I think that as a paid worker I don't want this to go on tape, so I think I'd rather not discuss that.

Interviewer:

Okay. Well, it can be restricted for 10 or 20 years.

P.P.:

No, I'd really rather not. Yeah, I'd rather not discuss that. I don't think it's up to me to discuss that.

Interviewer:

Okay, well, then let's talk about when we first started the center, and how many non Jewish members were there then. Let's say in '55, or '60.

P.P.:

In '60 we already had quite a few. In '55, when we first moved there, we had, in numbers, I couldn't tell you percentage, maybe 10%.

Interviewer:

Okay. Well, I wanted to know where we stood.

P.P.:

At the very most. But of course as people moved out that way, Jews and non Jews, they joined. Now, most of the Jewish people in Louisville, I mean, we had a very active campaign, and I would say a bigger percentage of Jewish people in Louisville joined the center at that time. Of course, the dues were much less. We came in at $48 family membership rate. And we're up to $195 now, so it's much easier for people to join, even though the dollar was not worth as much then as it is now.

Interviewer:

Yeah. Yeah.

P.P.:

The opposite, yeah, right. The opposite. But it was something new, something that everyone wanted to join. It was really, I think, prestige, then to belong 102:00when we first moved in.

Interviewer:

You mentioned $48 a member, what was the dues downtown when you started in '41?

P.P.:

When I started, well, we ended up there, I think when we moved out of there it was $15 a family membership. And that was really quite a jump from 15 to 48. And then, also, you did not necessarily have to be a member. We tried to make them be a member, but we were not nearly as strict about it as we are today. I mean, because it was really more as a drop in place for kids in the neighborhood. Here you don't drop them, you have to come. I think, I don't know, it may have been $15 when I came in, maybe $25. I think that's the way it was. We moved, I think it was $25. When I came it was $15.

Interviewer:

And now it's $195.

P.P.:

$195, mm-hmm (affirmative). That's a regular family membership, with that, the health club. We have many scholarships and what have you, but the regular standard-

Interviewer:

Now, downtown there was not a swimming pool, is that right?

P.P.:

No outside faculties at all. No ball fields or anything. For day camp we used to take kids on a bus and take kids out to Shelby Park so they could swim. I think this was another big factor in the move, was the fact that they felt they needed outside facilities of some kind.

Interviewer:

There were day camps in the summer time?

P.P.:

Oh yes, there was day camps. When I came there there were day camps, and also outdoor camp. Now, right before I came to work there, they had a beautiful camp, Camp Mingle, I think was the name of it, on the river that burned down.

Interviewer:

Do you remember about where it was?

P.P.:

Yeah, it was out, my Lord I used to go there every Sunday. Everyone used to go there on a Sunday. Way out there. I should know, but I can't remember. Way, way out there. They had cabins there you could rent for the summer, and picnics out there regularly, and kids went to camp out there, actually.

Interviewer:

And this was property owned by the center, by the Y?

P.P.:

By the Y, yes. Mm-hmm (affirmative). But that, there was a fire out there and it 104:00burned everything down, and it was never rebuilt. And that was sold. And then that's the time that they rented what is recently known as Camp Wash, or Camp Tall Trees for the outdoor camp. But when I first came to work at the Y, there was a little camp, day camp there, but it was, most of the activities had to take place outside of the building because the building was not air conditioned. They would take them out to the parks or what have you, but they originated at the Y and would go on buses to the different areas.

Interviewer:

I see. Is there anything that, I know you're a paid worker, but is there anything that you as a person think should have been differently? Or could have been done better?

P.P.:

Well, I think that holds true of anybody or anything, there's obviously things that could have been done better, but I think that it's done a terrific job. I think that all these years we've been financially stable. I think that we've been very fortunate. We came into the building different than any other center, 105:00I think, in the country. We came absolutely debt free, which was almost unheard of-

Interviewer:

No mortgage?

P.P.:

No mortgage. We never had a mortgage on this building.

Interviewer:

I didn't know that.

P.P.:

No, never. We had a mortgage on the old building, I think when I came there they were still paying a mortgage on the old building. But we came into this building debt free, which was really tremendous. We had our ups and down financially, but personally I think, I'm not saying it's gone perfect, but I think they did a fantastic job, I really do. I think we've had very good paid workers, and lay people.

Interviewer:

What about the leadership of the boards, which is strictly volunteer? Do you think that, well, what do you think about them, the board members?

P.P.:

I think they've been great. I'm not saying this as a paid person, because it's very, very time consuming if you really give it your all. And we've had many people that have. And I often say to myself that I think they're absolutely nuts, because how any business man, who works hard at their business all day long can give all this time to a volunteer organization, I see them come in, 106:00when they're really tired, you can see that they've really had a day. And I think the leadership has been terrific. Of course, you always want to tell them on occasion, like you do a worker, or paid worker, or what have you. But overall, though, I do not know how they do it. I honestly don't. I say this, I know after a day's work I've had it, and they have put in a hard day's work. I mean, these are big business men, and then they don't sit back, they work. I think they've been great.

Interviewer:

Do you know of any young people that you saw come into the Y in 1941 that you want to talk about that you've seen develop and become active in the community and so forth?

P.P.:

Oh, yes, it's almost laughable because I've seen this happen to all of them, as a matter of fact. I guess a prime example is Dr. Kysler, what's his first name? Robert? Is that the doctor? Whichever, he's an orthopedic man. And 10-15 years ago, when I had a bad back and he was with Dr. Arvack then and he came into the room, and he told me to take off my pants, I said "You have to be crazy. I 107:00remember you when you were a kid, I'm not going to get undressed in front of you." This is really true, all these who are now big doctors, and also people on the board, I tell them that I just can't believe this has happened. I feel like I'm a million years old, or else something's gone wrong with the world. I just cannot imagine it.

P.P.:

Yes, it's been a very strange thing. And I guess, more or less, in a doctor patient relationships, because thank goodness I'm fairly well, but naturally we all go to doctors and what have you, it's a very peculiar thing because I knew these doctors when they were young, when I gave them their gym card, or I would sell them a bar of candy for a nickel. I would call their mama to come pick them up. And all of a sudden, you know, they are the big leaders in the community. I think it's great. But it's a very peculiar feeling because, after all, I've been there 36 years, that's a long time. And people grow up in 36 years and things happen.

Interviewer:

Are there any in particular that you want to mention that you might have spotted when they were teenagers, that they would be good leaders, let's say? And then they did develop that way?

P.P.:

No, I don't think so. To the contrary, there's some that I thought were going to 108:00end up in jail and they end up to be the best. I really mean this. Some were so bad that, and now when I say that they are leaders of the community, I think well, there's a chance for everybody, really. Because they really were.

Interviewer:

I love that.

P.P.:

Well, no, I shouldn't say that, though. There were kids throughout, I mean, there were outstanding kids. You could tell that they, I can't think of names right off, but this did happen. I mean, they were a leader in their club, they were a leader in, let's say the youth council. And they ended up leaders. So yes, I guess through the years we did see that. But I think mostly I remember those that were so bad that you'd think they were going to end up in jail, or something, and then they're at the top of the community.

Interviewer:

Well, I'm glad to hear that. And you think, maybe, that the center had something to do with it?

P.P.:

I would like to think so. I think they did, and I hope so.

Interviewer:

Okay. Well, is there anything else that you want to say?

P.P.:

No, but I think what I'll say now, I've got to go to work because our dues are coming in today, and they just called me. I better get dressed and go to work.

Interviewer:

Very good. Thank you, Pauline.