Interview with Lee Gladstein, June 19, 1977

Interviewer:

...interviewing Lee Gladstein at his home at 1935 Eastview on June 19th, 1977. Dad, tell me where and when were you born?

Lee Gladstein:

I was born November the 25th 1903 in a town that is known as Sulwaki. S-U-L-W-A-K-I. Poland or Russia. It belonged to Russia at that time.

Interviewer:

When did you come to this country?

L.G.:

That is problematic. I was about approximately three years old at the time. I don't remember the exact date. I can't give you the exact date. I don't know.

Interviewer:

Well, who came with you? Was your father already here or-

L.G.:

Father was already here. I came here with my mother and two sisters.

Interviewer:

How did your father come over here?

L.G.:

He -what do you mean how did he come over here?

Interviewer:

Well, why did he come here? Was he the first of his family? Was there other family here?

L.G.:

His brother was in business in a little town in Scottsburg, Indiana, and he had been here for two or three years before my father came over, and he came over to see if he could make a living, I guess. That's the only reason I know why he would come.Interviewer:

And then he sent for the rest of the family.

L.G.:

Yeah, he sent for the rest of the family after he was here for a couple of years.

Interviewer:

Alright. Where did he settle?

L.G.:

He first settled in a Racine, Wisconsin, and from there he went to St. Louis for 2:00a while and finally opened up a small business in Sellersburg Indiana.

Interviewer:

Well, how did he pick Sellersburg?

L.G.:

It was 20 miles from where his brother was located at Scottsburg, and there seemed to be an opening for a store there, so he opened it up. He opened up a little store.

Interviewer:

What? Like a general store?

L.G.:

Clothing store at that time.

Interviewer:

Alright. You mentioned that you came over here with two sisters. How many were there in your family

L.G.:

All together?

Interviewer:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

L.G.:

Literally.

Interviewer:

Sisters and brothers, right.

L.G.:

Oh, there was three boys and three girls. In other words, I had two brothers and three sisters.

Interviewer:

And you all lived in Sellersburg?

L.G.:

That's right.

Interviewer:

Now, where is Sellersburg in relation to Louisville?

L.G.:

Sellersburg is about the 12 miles due north of Louisville. Due north of Louisville.

Interviewer:

Where, I know, because I'm your family, but would you say that your parents were Orthodox?

L.G.:

Yes.

Interviewer:

Alright, what did you do in the little town of Sellersburg, as far as your religious training was concerned?

L.G.:

Well, my folks were Orthodox, my folks were Orthodox and they wanted to give me some religious training, if possible. So, during the summer I attended the Louisville Hebrew schools at different times, and one summer I spent with the head of the Louisville Hebrew school at his home.

Interviewer:

Who was that?

L.G.:

His name was Rabbi Katz. I lived in his house for during the summer vacation, and that was when I was about 12, and I was 12 years old.

Interviewer:

And that was in preparation for your bar mitzvah?

L.G.:

Yes.

Interviewer:

And were are you bar mitzvahed? Well say it.

L.G.:

No, I wasn't bar mitzvahed.

Interviewer:

You never were?

L.G.:

I never had a formal bar mitzvah service.

Interviewer:

Alright. You had two younger brothers. Did they have this religious training too?

L.G.:

Yes. Because as communications and transportation got better, we had, at different times, we had religious teachers come out to Sellersburg to give them some training in Hebrew language, and Hebrew reading, and writing.

Interviewer:

So they came out to your home?

L.G.:

They came out to Sellersburg yes.

Interviewer:

But what did your family do as far as, as...food, like I know you- that they kept kosher.

L.G.:

My mother kept strictly kosher, and the items that we only had... well we had- 5:00we kept two sets of dishes. The meat and milk- milk and dairy separate. And we got our kosher food from Louisville and we brought our kosher food from Louisville a lot on the interurban car.

Interviewer:

What's an interurban car?

L.G.:

What's an interurban car? [laughing 00:05:27] Well at that time there was an interurban line running from Louisville to Indianapolis. We had very good transportation from Sellersburg to Louisville. We had hourly transportation back and forth from Sellersburg to Louisville. The cars ran from Louisville to Indianapolis and of course they all stopped in Sellersburg.

Interviewer:

What was it like a street car?

L.G.:

Yes. An interurban is- only it's much bigger than a street car, because it had... It was an electric car is what it was, and it ran by electricity.

Interviewer:

What was it like or were you aware as you were growing up in a small town in Indiana... were you aware that you were the only Jewish family?

L.G.:

Oh, yes. Definitely.

Interviewer:

How? I mean what?

L.G.:

Well, because we had a- my mother and father gave us a Jewish background.

Interviewer:

In what way? I mean were you allowed to play with the kids and the-

L.G.:

Oh, yes. As far as the children were- as far as the family was concerned, with the exception of not belonging to a church in Sellersburg, we had all the social activities that anybody else had.

Interviewer:

Well when you got older, let's say in your teen years and old enough to date, were you allowed to go out with non-Jewish girls?

L.G.:

Yes. There was no Jewish girls to go with.

Interviewer:

Were there any incidences that you can recall, because in your young years there was the Klu Klux Klan and antisemitism. Did you experience any of that living in Sellersburg?

L.G.:

Not any that was really marked. There was- yes, we had the Ku Klux Klan at that time. At one time they had a big meeting there, and a lot of the Klansman walked past our home and they'd all holler, "Hi Abe," or "Hi Lee. How are you?" when they went by.

Interviewer:

Dressed in their robes?

L.G.:

In their robes and masks. We didn't know who they were.

Interviewer:

But you had no...

L.G.:

But we had no overt action that was derogatory. There was possibly some that might've been underground, but nothing that we knew about.

Interviewer:

So nothing that you experienced personally. Alright your-. I, I remember that you moved to Louisville. How old were you when you moved to Louisville?

L.G.:

Well, I was in my twenties

Interviewer:

Why did your family decide to move?

L.G.:

Well, the family wanted to have more of a Jewish social life than we had. And at that particular time there was no high school in Sellersburg and there was- there were three- my brothers and sisters, sister were ready to go to high school. Meant they would- the three would have to go back and forth on the 9:00interurban ever day to Jeffersonville.

Interviewer:

Is that where you went to high school?

L.G.:

Yeah, I went to high school at Jeffersonville. I graduated from Jeffersonville High School. So they figured it would be better for the family to move to Louisville.

Interviewer:

And commute-

L.G.:

Commute as far as business was concerned, but to live over here.

Interviewer:

Alright. When you moved to Louisville, had you made any younger friends, friends your own age previous to coming here? In other words, did you have any kind of social life with the Jewish people in Louisville? You personally?

L.G.:

Not too much. Like I say, I had spent a couple of summers over here going to Hebrew school, and I knew some of the boys whom I later became very friendly with when I moved over here. I knew them very well, not too well, but I knew them well enough to- to get along with them, let's put it that way.

Interviewer:

But that most of- most of your contacts when you were growing up, until you moved to Louisville, were with non-Jewish people?

L.G.:

That's right.

Interviewer:

But you were not uncomfortable with this?

L.G.:

Not particularly. I imagine that sometimes there was a little rift of, I wouldn't say misunderstanding, but a little lift- rift of differences caused by the differences in religion, but nothing that was really marked.

Interviewer:

So that you were perfectly comfortable there

L.G.:

In most instances, yes. Every once in a while you would, there was somebody that would make a remark that was a little off color, but it was usually from somebody who was a very real tisk or ignorant person. Nothing new.

Interviewer:

But your family felt at home in this small town?

L.G.:

Mostly- yeah, mostly.

Interviewer:

Alright. You said that you had gone out with non-Jewish girls. Were your sisters allowed to go out with non-Jewish boys?

L.G.:

Only in a group. Not date. Only in a group. I mean boys and girls together they could go, but not to date.

Interviewer:

No actual dating.

L.G.:

That's right.

Interviewer:

All right and then when you moved over here...did your family, when they live in Sellersburg, did they belong to any synagogue or congregation?

L.G.:

I don't know about belonging to a congregation, but my father and the boys, we always went to the high holiday services over here at one of the congregations.

Interviewer:

The girls didn't go?

L.G.:

The girls didn't go, no.

Interviewer:

Then when you moved here, did they join a congregation?

L.G.:

Yes.

Interviewer:

What congregation?

L.G.:

Well, we always called it Brooklyn College, back in those days.

Interviewer:

So was Adath Jeshurun.

L.G.:

Adath Jeshurun, yeah.

Interviewer:

When you came over here- when you came to Louisville, when you were still living in Sellersburg, and you went to a shul, did you go to an Orthodox shul or did you go to Adath Jeshurun?

L.G.:

We went to a more Orthodox shul. We went to- the first one- we went to one that was at Preston and Fehr and later on I went to one-

Interviewer:

Do you remember the name of that?

L.G.:

[foreign language 00:12:33] I think is the way it was called and then later on we went to one down 11th and Jefferson, I think it was. I don't remember the name of that one. I think it was called Agudath Achim, but I'm not sure.

Interviewer:

Alright. And then when you came over here, you joined-

L.G.:

Join the-

Interviewer:

Adath Jeshurun.

L.G.:

Adath Jeshurun.

Interviewer:

And then did the female side of the family start going to services or was that still so ingrained?

L.G.:

No, no, they, they- they went to services. My mother and sisters and we- the whole family went, yes.

Interviewer:

Alright. When you moved over here, where did you move to?

L.G.:

We moved to First and Hill - 1925 First Street.

Interviewer:

15.

L.G.:

15.

Interviewer:

25 [laughing 00:13:21]

L.G.:

It wasn't 1925, that's right.

Interviewer:

Why did they decide on that particular area? Do you know? Were there a lot of Jewish people there?

L.G.:

There was some Jewish people there, and it was convenient. It was just a block from the car line, and it was a very nice Jewish neighborhood at that particular time.

Interviewer:

Were most of your friends, then when you moved to Louisville Jewish? Did your, yeah.

L.G.:

In Louisville, yes. Most of my friends were Jewish.

Interviewer:

And your parents too-

L.G.:

Yes.

Interviewer:

-the people that they associated with? Can- is there anything that you can remember or anything in your background that made you- made your life particularly aware of your Jewishness, your education, or the people you were with? The people you socialized with, the people you did business with?

L.G.:

No, because when I went to college, my first- my roommate in school was a Jewish boy that I met on the campus. From Evansville, Indiana. And we formed a Jewish fraternity, which was the first at the University of Indiana.

Interviewer:

What was the name of it?

L.G.:

Sigma Alpha Mu. And most of my contacts in school was with the Jewish students to a marked extent.

Interviewer:

Well, I know that your business is still in Sellersburg, and you commute back and forth. Have you seen any change in the way that Sellersburg reacted to Jews then as they do now?

L.G.:

No. I would have to say in most instances, the friends that we had years ago in Sellersburg are still our friends. We still have a very, very good relationship with everybody as far as I know, with everybody in the community of Sellersburg.

Interviewer:

Were there, at any time, other Jewish people that were interested in coming to settle in Sellersburg, or that traveled through Sellersburg?

L.G.:

Not that I remember.

Interviewer:

You said that your father's brother settled in Scottsburg, and he was there first. Is his family still there?

L.G.:

Well there's only- his family is all gone, except one son who is still in business up there.

Interviewer:

And his name is?

L.G.:

His name is the same as mine. Lee Gladstein.

Interviewer:

Causes a little confusion [laughing 00:16:42]. Is there anything else that you can recall? Things that you did when you came to Louisville, as a young boy when you came and spent the summer with Rabbi Katz, or that when you came for your Hebrew or religious education. Aside from the education, you must have done 17:00something here, people that you were with or places that you went?

L.G.:

Well, I know that one summer I spent with a family by the name of Mr. Alex [Sadament 00:17:21] and his family. They lived on Madison Street at the time, and I know that I met a lot of the boys that I still know from that- from that particular summer.

Interviewer:

Well you said you spent the summer with them. This was while you were studying Hebrew? Was that why you were there?

L.G.:

That's right. I, I went to Louisville Hebrew school that particular summer.

Interviewer:

And you stayed with this Sadaments?

L.G.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Interviewer:

Did you go- while you were here, did you go to the YMHA or to the old HA summer camp?

L.G.:

No. No.

Interviewer:

And you never went to the YMHA?

L.G.:

No. No. People back in those days... the YMHA, if I remember correctly, was 18:00on... Was it on First street? Or...anyhow. But the boys, very few of the boys that I knew went there- went to the YMHA in any way, shape, or form

Interviewer:

You weren't part of the athletics there or anything like that?

L.G.:

No. Not for the younger boys, as I remember it. I don't know.

Interviewer:

But you didn't.

L.G.:

I didn't.

Interviewer:

Alright. When you moved here and by the time your family moved here, you were already in college, so you were only home in the summers, right?

L.G.:

No, I moved here after I got out of college.

Interviewer:

Oh, after you got out of college. Alright. Then was your social life, was it at the HA, was it around the congregation? Where were the places that you quote "hung out"? [silence 00:18:49]

Interviewer:

You haven't answered me yet. Where are the places that you went that you were with Jewish people? In other words, was there any kind of social life around the 19:00congregation, or in the summer did you go to the YMHA camp, which I've heard so much about.

L.G.:

Yeah I went to the YMHA camp on the summer with some of the boys. We used to go out there.

Interviewer:

Where was the camp?

L.G.:

It was out on River Road.

Interviewer:

Where, do you know approximately, so we could get the relationship?

L.G.:

It was about- a little past, Eight Mile House.

Speaker 1:

[inaudible 00:19:29]

Interviewer:

But in other words you would go out there for the day. I know some families actually [crosstalk 00:19:38] moved out there for the summer.

L.G.:

[crosstalk 00:19:38] Yes, I went out there for the day with some of the other boys.

Interviewer:

Did any of your sisters or brothers ever go out there?

L.G.:

I don't remember what they did or not. I really don't. I don't think- my brothers were too young to go, and I don't think my sisters went out there at all because we had no, you know, we didn't- we had no facilities for living out 20:00there and going there. Really no reason to go out there.

Interviewer:

Are there any other recollections or things you can remember growing up that you would like us to have for posterity? You haven't told a story about the rye bread dad.

L.G.:

Well, I...[laughing 00:20:24]...you mean...I told you we brought our kosher food from Louisville on the interurban, we went back and forth from Louisville to Sellersburg and-

Interviewer:

Who is we? Your mother, or your dad or you or who?

L.G.:

No, it was mostly me and my dad, yeah. Because it was- we had to carry the stuff back.

Interviewer:

So you'd go into the city just to pick up the food?

L.G.:

Well yeah, sure. It wasn't too big a trip.

Interviewer:

And then bring it back on the interurban.

L.G.:

Bring it back, yeah.

Interviewer:

Anything else that you can recall?

L.G.:

Nothing of any particular interest. It's a very uninteresting background.

Interviewer:

No, it's not uninteresting background, but any organizations that you belonged to as a young man...that were, you know, tied to the Jewish community - clubs or things like that?

L.G.:

No, I didn't go into any of the organizations like that.

Interviewer:

So you can't think of anything else you'd like us to record. [silence 00:21:29]

Interviewer:

Dad, I remember seeing an article in the paper - I think it was in the Courier-Journal - and I think that [Saul 00:21:39] Schulman wrote it, about your father and peddlers or merchants that would come through Sellersburg. Can you remember what it said?

L.G.:

Well Saul wrote the article. Something about my dad made it a... I don't what the word is - habit. But, any salesman that called on him, but the first time if 22:00it was a new salesman on the road my dad would always see that he got some sort of an order to give him a good start.

Interviewer:

Are you talking about a Jewish salesman? Is that what you're saying?

L.G.:

Well not only Jewish, but even a non-Jew if he was a nice sort of person. He would try to give him a little start, and to give him a little confidence in doing what he was doing, and on top of that, if possible, he would call up my uncle up in Scottsburg and tell him that this man was coming through, and to see if he couldn't give him a little boost along the line to give him a good start on the road. Because as a rule when the salesmen left Louisville, the first stop they made was Sellersburg. And Saul Schulman happened to write up that article about my dad. It was in the financial section of one of the Louisville papers.

Interviewer:

I see. So that this was another way that you were very conscious of the, I guess your Jewish relationship, but also the network. Where the other- can you remember other merchants in small towns in Indiana, Jewish merchants beside your father and your uncle? Were there others?

L.G.:

Oh, yes. There was a lot of Jewish merchants that had been to small towns back in those days. There was at every 10 or 15 miles, and not only in Indiana but in Kentucky too, because the Jewish people settled in small towns at that particular time. Then they misremember a lot of... Several times there were a tenor in Jewish families that were going through certain places, and they were always, as a rule, rather devoid of any monetary accumulation, you might say. 24:00And my dad always saw that they got a helping hand to the next place where my uncle or somebody at the next town, could give him a little lip to help him to get where they were going to go.

Interviewer:

What were these families just traveling or going to settle somewhere?

L.G.:

Yes, it was..families just traveling or maybe they were on their way to a certain place and got stranded and didn't have enough money or something like that. And they were never turned away at a Sellersburg. I mean, they always got a helping boost there.

Interviewer:

Well, what would they stay with you?

L.G.:

No. As a rule we found places for them to stay the night, and to give them enough money to get to the next town where they could get a little help from somebody else.

Interviewer:

So until they found a place to light.

L.G.:

That's right. Until they found whoever. If they had someplace in mind to go to it so that they could get there.

Interviewer:

Have you ever heard or has the family ever heard from any of these people afterward?

L.G.:

No, no, no, no.

Interviewer:

It was just-

L.G.:

That was years ago before the system of charities was as prevalent as they are 25:00today. Those things aren't...you don't find people like that on the road anymore.

Interviewer:

Well, you know, I can remember as a little girl on Sunday, having the rabbis come with the beards, and the broad hats, and the little pushke, and they used to always manage to come at dinnertime. I remember that. Did they ever come to Sellersburg?

L.G.:

Oh definitely they did the same [inaudible and laughing 00:25:32].

Interviewer:

You mean they came from Louisville to Sellersburg?

L.G.:

From Louisville to Sellersburg, from Sellersburg to Scottsburg, from Scottsburg to Seymour, from Seymour to Columbus. All. In other words, they all had a certain route that they made, and they- see that interurban that they had an hour between interurbans. There was this- maybe got there at a quarter after 12 and then left at quarter after one. They had an hour to make their collection and stop another hour, they'd get to Scottsburg. So in a day's work they could 26:00practically work from Louisville to Indianapolis.

Interviewer:

Did- do you ever recall people from Sellersburg seeing them or asking questions about them?

L.G.:

Oh, they saw them naturally, but there was never... To the best of my knowledge, nobody ever asks who they were, or what they were.

Interviewer:

They just accepted they were coming to your house.

L.G.:

Yeah that's right. They- most of them had the round black hats and the long black coats and the whiskers.

Interviewer:

And the box.

L.G.:

Well these people really didn't have a box

Interviewer:

But they were counting on your helping.

L.G.:

Oh, yes. And then, I don't know, I don't see them anymore. But back in those days, we had the little tin boxes in the house, and we put charity money in every so often and they came back and opened those up and certain...I don't know what religious organization had those boxes back in those days, but we always 27:00managed to put some in it.

Interviewer:

So that you were taught, and the kids were taught that you always put a little something in the pushke.

L.G.:

That's right.

Interviewer:

Okay. Anything else that you can remember, amusing or sad or whatever?

L.G.:

No. The only thing that I can tell you is that I could never learn the Hebrew language like I'd like to, and I still don't know it. Education cost my- cost was rather expensive back in those days to go back and forth on the interurban, or to spend the summers as a paid guest at Mr. Sadament's or Rabbi Katz's, but it didn't take with me, unfortunately.

Interviewer:

Did - were your other two brothers bar mitzvahed.

L.G.:

No. [silence 00:27:59]

Interviewer:

Dad, it had to take more on the part of your parents to stay Jewish and bring up Jewish children in a small town when you were really isolated, aside from coming into Louisville to get your food and go back. Was there ever any thought among you or are the kids that you were different, or that you would like to be one of the group?

L.G.:

Be different in what way?

Interviewer:

Well, you were different just from the rest of your community just because you were Jewish, and it took a great deal of effort on your parents' part to instill that in you.

L.G.:

Well, my parents were Orthodox and the orthodoxy came down to us as it does in a lot of places, and outside of being a religious difference between our- a 29:00difference in religion between us and the rest of the people out there, there was hardly anything noticeable. I was the only Jewish student at the Jeffersonville High School, which I attended with the exception of Dr. [Cole 00:29:29], who moved along a little later on after he graduated from Jeffersonville and-

Interviewer:

What Dr. Cole?

L.G.:

Dr. Armin Cole.

Interviewer:

Oh.

L.G.:

He was a senior when I was a freshman, and there was- I had good friends in the Jeffersonville High School. In fact, I used to run across one of them the other day- I used to run across one of them here in Louisville, who lived up on Bardstown Road someplace. We talked quite a bit about our old high school days. I understand that he's passed on now. I am not sure about that, but I understand that.

Interviewer:

But in other words, you knew that no matter where you settled, what you did, 30:00Judaism was a part of your home and that came to you from your parents. It was a part of your life.

L.G.:

Judaism is a part of my life, and I never thought anything different about any part of it at any time.

Interviewer:

So that this is what really the heritage that you got from your parents.

L.G.:

That's right.

Interviewer:

Okay. I thank you very much.