Interview with Anne Karl, June 20, 1977

SG:

...Jewish oral history of Louisville. I'm interviewing Anne Karl, June 20, 1977. Anne, you were born in Louisville, is that right?

Anne Karl:

That's right.

Sylvia Goldstein: Could you tell me how your family happen to come to Louisville?

A.K.:

My parents came from Kovno Guberniya in Russia. My father came here in the late 1800. My mother followed later. I think he arrived here because he followed a married sister who lived in Louisville, Kentucky. And he started out as a peddler with pack on his back around Indiana and Louisville and since he was a shoemaker by trade, he opened this shoemaking shop. My mother, and brother, and sister followed later. We lived on Preston Street, which was then I suppose you would call a ghetto, but since there was no such things as cars, or telephones, or any kind of transportation other than a horse and a wagon, people had to be 1:00in the neighborhoods of their businesses, and the Jewish butcher shop than the shop. At that time, there was a Rabbi Zarchy who was the rabbi of the B'nai Jacob shul [inaudible 00:01:32] . And as I recall, the rabbi didn't receive any salary per se for his services, the people donated towards his keep.

A.K.:

And there was also, I learned as a child, that people donated small amounts of money into a source or something called [foreign language 00:01:59] and that was supposed to be for the benefit of any Jew who was in need. And he was allowed to borrow the money without interest. But it was compulsory morally that he paid 2:00back the money that he had borrowed, that was before the days of your community chests and things of that sort.

A.K.:

And then, women got together and formed a group called the Ladies' Hebrew Society, which helped out the needy. If there was a sudden urge or somebody came into town and had no help of any kind, clothes, place to live, or food, some of the Jewish women would go about each one and ask for what they called [foreign language 00:02:43] they didn't say who it was for, and they gave what little money they could, and they helped. And that was their charities began before the Jewish Federation took over when there were more needy Jews to be taken care of. I went to the Louisville schools, the Louisville Girl's High School, and University of Louisville. It didn't seem to be important at that time that you give girls Hebrew education. The boys were educated in Hebrew so that they could 3:00be bar mitzvah.

SG:

Anne, do you remember much about what sort of home that you all had at that point? Tell me about the good old golden days.

A.K.:

Well, according to today's figure, it wouldn't be considered good old days. I supposed you'd say that was very hard living but since we had nothing to compare it to, I suppose it was all right. I may have been an underprivileged child, but I didn't know what that meant and I wasn't aware of it so I wasn't particularly bothered with it. We had books, we didn't have ... Even the schools didn't give books in those days, we had to buy the books or hand them down from one child to the other and there was no great difficulty in a large family unless they changed the books at that time.

A.K.:

But there seems to have been a sort of a comradery that Jews had to help Jews. And there were very few needy Jews at that time that stayed in need because someone always shared with him what they had. Of course, when the federation came in to be, that was another source that they could turn to but there wasn't a great amount of money as far as I knew. The type of Jew that I was acquainted with at that time was not a wealthy person.

SG:

Anne, did you go to Sunday, Sabbath school? Did you have it on Saturday or Sunday or?

A.K.:

The one shul did not have a Sunday school at that time. I think what was then known as the YMHA, it was located on first street, south first street. And one or two times they attempted Sunday school there but there seemed to be trouble holding onto a teacher, so it was never a very ... There was no continuity to 5:00it. You went one Sunday, and then nobody was there the next Sunday to hold school. But there were little clubs. I myself belonged to a ... they called it the Grace Aguilar Circle, and we met on Sunday. I'm not quite sure now what we did when we met, if it was a social, or if we learned, but there were various activities.

A.K.:

Now this is later in the century, this is not in the early 1900s. This is already going up to probably 1910, '11, '12, something like that, before the center afterwards, it was called the YMHA at that time, moved to second and college, I think it was a second in New York. And it seemed at that time to be a very large place, but it's not a good location because the activities became 6:00more. And then there was another congregation that started called the Hadmedresh Hagodol and then because there was some Jews who had located in the west end around 11th or 12th street and it was too far for them to walk on Saturdays or the holidays to the shul, they formed another congregation there. And there was also a congregation, the first one that Rabbi Hayyim came to, at Floyd and Chestnut, which is now the location of the children's hospital.

SG:

Do you remember how they formed them at shul, how it started, they decide to start another congregation?

A.K.:

I'm not so sure, and I don't think started another congregation because I remember as far back as ... I remember being in three locations, and they were probably the Jews who thought the orthodox was a little bit too rigid, and they wanted a little more lenient form of service than the written. And the one thing being that they preferred having the women sit with the men at the first breakaway.

SG:

Do you remember much that were present women's organizations like Hadassah council, et cetera? How many of those [crosstalk 00:08:02]. Do you remember the start to many of those?

A.K.:

I think the Adath started in around, somewhere around 1912. It was people like Mrs. Barnett Linker and Betty Aides, they called her Mrs. Jacob Aides, and Sadie [Wolkow 00:08:23], and Sadie Vere, those are the names that come to mind that they were originators. In fact, I once saw the minutes of that first meeting.

SG:

That should have been interesting. Do you remember much about them?

A.K.:

No, other than that they were to help, it wasn't Israel then, it was Palestine. And their idea of first forming was that they had a sewing circle where they would meet and make clothes to send over there. It was long before the start of the state of Israel. And there was a family by the name of, he was called B. Isaacs, he's the grandfather of Dr. Abram Isaacs and Arthur Isaacs, and they were my idea of the first dynastic family in the city of Louisville, in fact, I 9:00think I heard the word from them.

SG:

You first learned it?

A.K.:

I had an older brother, who was friendly with them. Miss Minnie Isaacs, she was then, and there was a Lissy Isaacs, and Lewis Isaacs. I don't know any of that older family or any of them alive right now, I don't know them. But they were very active in the - and there was a Goldstein family, Hadi Goldstein, I think they're relatives in [inaudible 00:09:51]. And they were very interested, in fact I think it was Hadi Goldstein who led this Grace Aguilar Circle of which I was a member.

A.K.:

And as the city grew, and the streetcars came into being, hard cars first are what they called those and then there's seat cars. And I suppose it was easier, or we walk, which was very good. I remember walking from where I lived to the YMHA as it was called then.

SG:

Was it on-

A.K.:

On Second Street, Second and, was it called York or College there? It's right back of what's now the Stopper Inn.

SG:

Yeah.

A.K.:

And there was a Mr. Charlie Morris who was a lawyer, and he was very much interested in arts and tried to bring culture to the YMHA. He instituted the declamatory contest, and I think he was the one that gave the prizes and the younger men and women would try out for these contests. And they had basketball teams were originated then.

SG:

Even in those days the YMHA was the center [crosstalk 00:11:15] like our community center is now? I've heard you tell about a hall of some sort where weddings were held.

A.K.:

That was not a Jewish, that was a German, I think that belonged to the Germans, it was called the leader clans hall, where weddings were held. In fact, your husband's mother, got married there in that hall. The Jewish ... I remember my father going to the laying of the cornerstone of the original Jewish hospital at Floyd and Kentucky, I don't recall where it originated before then, but I remember-

SG:

Was that the first Jewish hospital?

A.K.:

As far as I can remember. Maybe there was some nucleus of it before, but I can't recall anything like that. But it was small, and then it grew in stature and added a nurses home, and they added onto it until they moved to their new location.

SG:

And back Hadassah?

A.K.:

Yeah.

SG:

It must seem like a whole new and different organization today. Can you discuss some of the changes in it?

A.K.:

Well, I don't think its basic principle has changed. It was always a woman's Zionist organization. Their purpose was always to work for Zionism, but Zionism finally evolved to the state of Israel, so you can't speak of Zionism because they achieved their purpose. But their main purpose was always humanitarian, and the hospital was their strong point. And they worked for the hospital to build a hospital and to finance it and to keep it in supplies.

A.K.:

Of course, when the war came on, and the Jews were being destroyed, then Youth Aliyah became their big thing that they were doing. The purpose then was to save the children and bring them into Israel, so I think more of their efforts went into saving, and after you saved the children and brought them into Israel, then you had to build the schools and teach them to be good citizens of the state of Israel when it evolved. But their purpose was always humanitarian, and I think it still stays that way, the don't fringe off from that.

SG:

Anne, in the early days of Hadassah or even as the first was just a sewing circle I believe you said [crosstalk 00:13:49].

A.K.:

That's what it seemed to me, I don't know.

SG:

As well as you remember. Then, in the early days when they became back and very nationally, what sort of meetings did they have?

A.K.:

Well-

SG:

Do you remember?

A.K.:

I go back, I joined, I think I became a Hadassah member back in 1923, somewhere around about that time. I don't recall too much, I became active in it around 1947 and from then on, of course I could speak more knowledgeable about it. But up until then, I really don't know whether it was a social, I know that they were always raising money, and the moneys all went to Palestine. And they also were the collection points for the blue box although in those days, people went from door to door. There was a sort of a blue box day and they went from door to door and either people kept the little blue box in the house and they opened it or you donated the money or they pinned a little blue and white flag on you when you gave them money. But it always seemed to be money raising propositions as far as I can recall.

SG:

Anne, do you remember much about before the anecdote that your father told you about his trip over here or the first day that he was here, when he started out here, or before he got here?

A.K.:

Before he got here?

SG:

Yeah.

A.K.:

No, he didn't do too much talking about before he got here. He's very young, and he should have gone in the Russian army, so he's trying very hard to get out of the country and to evade going into the army. And after he got here, living was very rough. I remember, until this past winter, it was the first time I ever heard of the Ohio River freezing up, other than when you told me about it. Back in the late 1800s, I think they said it was 100 years or more before they see the Ohio River frozen.

SG:

That was before you were born?

A.K.:

Yes.

SG:

Do you remember any special anecdotes you like to recall from your childhood? Well, and don't illustrate [crosstalk 00:16:07].

A.K.:

I think that what interested me the most, is I'd stand there and watch these women come in and say to him, "Mr. Simons, nedove, please?" And I didn't know what it meant, but I saw him reach in his pocket and give them some change and away they went. And I wanted to know what it was for. And he said, "It's for charity and if you know the name of the person, it's not charity that you're doing", he said, "These women give their time, and they're very honorable, and they collect, and they will take care of some poor needy family, but it wasn't necessary for us to know who the family was." And that's my first introduction to word nedove.

SG:

Do you remember being active in any other organizations in Louisville?

A.K.:

Active? I don't know how active. Well, in the shul, yeah, yeah. I was on the board of the shul, and when they originally started the Van Dyke Women, and the hospital guild, and the council of Jewish women, sisterhood.

SG:

You've been in them all? Anne, what do you feel are the significant changes over the years in the city and in the community?

A.K.:

Oh, they're almost too huge to talk about the changes. I think the soon to be a very attractive place, and they've gone in all directions to teach and to bring culture, along with entertainment, such as swimming. You ever heard of the Jewish center of the swimming pool that you have now, indoor and outdoor swimming pools? And the places to reduce in the gymnasium because we'd overeat. 18:00There's more food around now than there was back then.

SG:

Didn't the Jewish mom always say we overate?

A.K.:

Yes, but I suppose it was mostly bread then. It was really a fact of life. And the rabbi in those days, I recall, the rabbi was the hub. If anybody had trouble, they went to Rabbi Zarchy and he was a very honorable man, and he probably was our first psychiatrist as far as I know. He settled all the arguments between husbands, wives, and children, and parents. I think the changes have been very significant, all for the better, I would say.

SG:

You think it's better today?

A.K.:

Oh, much better. And still getting better.

SG:

That encourages. [foreign language 00:19:13].

A.K.:

I think the Jewish community is very outstanding right now. Maybe the coming of Israel gave us a better face, but I think we all like to voice the fact that we're Jewish now, we don't evade it. We feel there's honor due us for what we have done.

SG:

Anne, do you remember ... When you were young, did you feel much ... I know you had plenty, lots of contact with non-Jewish kids, but what was the relationship between them then, do you remember between you, and the [crosstalk 00:20:01]?

A.K.:

There was never any trouble between the children, it's when they would go home and learn what a Jew was that they'd come back and start arguments and start fights. I don't think children ever knew. They have to be taught to hate each other, I don't think children are born with any [crosstalk 00:20:18] hate.

SG:

And you all didn't have too many problems in that area?

A.K.:

I say, yes. There were arguments, someone would say "Christ killers" something or other like that once in a while, but there wasn't too much of that. You sat alongside of them in school, and went to school. Of course, in those days, the schools were segregated, we didn't go with the colored children. But I don't know that I felt too much until not until the coming of the second world war, or back into the '30s when Hitler began to rise into power that you felt.

SG:

Did you feel at that time that there was some spread over here? That creed, Nazism?

A.K.:

Oh, yes.

SG:

You did?

A.K.:

Definitely. I remember, I used to always worry about, there was a place at Brook and Market Street that was called The Superior Welding Company, the windows were always painted dark, I always wondered what went on in that place. And I remember one time, there was a man here in Louisville was in the insurance business, Mr. Lewis Cohen, very well known, and he was quite active in the B'nai B'rith at that time, and he would call on us for insurance. And I asked him about this place once. And he told me that they were very well a fact that this was some sort of a Nazi machinations going on, but there was nothing they could do until this country went to war.

A.K.:

It seemed kind of ridiculous to me at the time, if they knew it, why couldn't they do something about it? But I learned very suddenly the day of December 7th, 1941, this is one of the first places they pounced on, and locked them up. And they, at that time, they were living in the, not the [inaudible 00:22:05] the other big-

SG:

Dartmouth?

A.K.:

The Dartmouth. And that place was completely wired with all sorts of contraptions and all, and this man, his wife, and her brother or something.

SG:

What was their name? [Boden 00:22:15] or something?

A.K.:

Bodenschatz, I was thinking, Viola was her first name, Bodenschatz. And they went to jail for that, but the B'nai B'rith was very alert at that time about what was going on, but it seems that when they contacted the Jews in Germany, they didn't seem to think that they were in any danger.

SG:

And they never did.

A.K.:

No, they thought it was a passing phase, and it would go over with. See, that it wouldn't make any difference. And I think it was back in '38 or '39 that the Jewish community, the Jewish-

SG:

Federation?

A.K.:

No, not the federation. The big draft that goes on?

SG:

UJA?

A.K.:

The UJA really came into power and existence. That's my first, because I started out in 1938 or '39 to [inaudible 00:23:15] respond when people weren't very well aware. When you just go around with a box and ask them to take a box and put 10 cents a week in it and they see, they give five dollars a year. They were people who had never heard, who had given, and people have to be taught to give, they don't give freely. You after to go after to them to give or scare them a little bit.

A.K.:

I remember one woman, I told her when she dropped a dime in there, I said, "That's insurance for Hitler, against Hitler" and I think she thought I was nuts at the time. Standing too far away. But I was frightened by what I heard at these meetings where they were coaching us and telling us what to do when we went out on the streets. And from then on, it grew and grew.

SG:

In those early days, when you went out on the streets, when they were training you, preparing you to go out and solicit, did they bring in speakers to train you or local people, how would that happen?

A.K.:

Local people, I think it was local people that did it at first. They weren't so big on it themselves.

SG:

Yeah, they didn't know how to start really, did they?

A.K.:

No, but as I look back now, I think they did a very good job for being as green as they were in the effort, but there were a lot of people, the [Coles 00:24:31] were very active in it then, and the Levi's, they're all mostly gone now. James Levi, and Stewart, and the others. Speaking of the other generations, although these younger ones have all taken hold, they deserve credit for what they're doing because it gets a little bit rough on you. My stage of the game to go climbing stairs, I need to get there.

SG:

Well, nowadays, I don't believe they go out and climb stairs, I believe they have meetings mostly. [crosstalk 00:25:02]

A.K.:

Yeah, hold meetings. And they have educated the people to the fact that they must give because it isn't all just giving and going to Israel, you have to support your centers, and your YMHAs, and Four Courts. There was no Four Courts at that time either in those days. That didn't start until much, much later.

SG:

Do you remember what prompted the Four Courts?

A.K.:

Yes, I suppose, I think it was a dream of Mrs. Barnett Linker, I think that was one of her dreams. I don't recall too well, but I think she was the original instigator of a place like that. And there were quite a few families and people that needed that place to go to. And not only that they needed this place to go to, but they needed to educated the people that you can't keep all people at home, or find homes for them when they're not capable of taking care of themselves, and they have no family to look after them. So it is quite a nice, one of our nice features that we can brag about.

SG:

What do you really think, over the years that the Jewish community has made the greatest strides in? Is there anything in particular that stands out?

A.K.:

Well, the overall picture, is pretty I think. I don't know what pictures standout. We have a beautiful hospital, we've got a beautiful center, we even got a beautiful club if you can afford to go on there. And you have Four Courts, which is constantly growing, you have Hebrew schools, you have Jewish day school. And all these in the war years, there was ... that I went with that was called, I think it was Ladies Bene, no I don't what it was -

SG:

The Ladies Benevolent?

A.K.:

Wait a minute, they still call it a benevolent, or whatever it was, where we used to go out to Fort Knox and visit the hospitals there.

SG:

That was a very good organization.

A.K.:

Yes.

SG:

I used to belong to it, was it the Ladies' Benevolent Society?

A.K.:

I think it was a Ladies' Benevolent Society.

SG:

A Jewish lady-

A.K.:

Yeah, a Jewish lady-

SG:

... or something like that.

A.K.:

It was disbanded after the war, but I think that Louisville Jewery has made quite a, look at our beautiful shuls, and now we're going to build them another new one. If our religion keeps up with the beauty of the shuls, we'll be all right.

SG:

Do you ... Was it before the present day school, I don't remember exactly, has there always been a Jewish Day School in Louisville?

A.K.:

No, no. There was no Jewish day school, there was a Louisville Hebrew school.

SG:

But they only taught the boys Hebrew?

A.K.:

They only taught the boys Hebrew.

SG:

So they could be bar mitzvah?

A.K.:

That's right, that was it. Girls didn't go there. But the day school was latter day maybe the last 20 years, 25 years.

SG:

I didn't know how long it had been.

A.K.:

Something like that. But I would say that we've made great strides in the way of-

SG:

Do you know how the Jewish Day School started? Or what started it?

A.K.:

What started it? Well, it think a few of the ultra religious families thought that their children weren't getting a good enough education, Jewish good enough, enough Jewish good education in the public schools and they wanted to stress that. It was their privilege, living in America we can do it.

SG:

I just didn't know whether there was some particular thing that started it off?

A.K.:

No, I don't think [crosstalk 00:28:41].

SG:

It was the aftermath? They just have the value of education.

A.K.:

It was before desegregation, so it had nothing to do with that. It didn't start as some of these church schools have started recently, no.

SG:

That's nice to know.

A.K.:

Yes.

SG:

Anne, do you remember your friends of long ago, [crosstalk 00:29:02] some here and some aren't?

A.K.:

Yes.

SG:

Any of them you'd like to talk about?

A.K.:

Well, none that comes to mind real quickly. There were quite a few nights we did a lot of good work in the community. I think the Rosenbloom family, I used to laugh because the Rosenbloom's, the ones that were in those shirt companies, I don't think any of them are here right now on that generation. They were one of the top workers, or the original workers in the united Jewish, UJA. And then afterwards, somebody got the bright idea when they were running the Community Chest campaign and making very, very little money from the entire community of Louisville, that I think Bernard Rosenbaum, they elected him as the chairman one year, and he went after just you did the UJA and really built a machine that's still going strong right now, they raise much, much more money now. These people would give you $10 when it was stupid. They went after him for much more money. 30:00He had it all compartmentalized and really gave it a big push. So he showed them how to gather money for the city at large.

SG:

The Jewish community has really, that's one example of how the Jewish community has really contributed in a big way to a non-Jewish, to the total community.

A.K.:

I think that they ... I see now in the paper where they want to start, someone is trying to start the conference of Christians and Jews again. Well, that started back on many years ago. And Aaron and I went to one of their dinners. And I got busy counting the table that we had there, and I counted that there were more tables of Jews than there were of the Gentiles. I didn't think that - f they showed that little interest, I didn't know why they would want to go on with it again. [interview cuts off 00:31:01].

A.K.:

[inaudible 00:31:14]

A.K.:

Nobody seemed to take them. Maybe they had them, but it was very small. But I know we almost most of the Jews at that time showed up in mosque, we outnumbered the ... We had quite a few people honored, Jewish people honored with the [crosstalk 00:32:09]. And by the same token, we've honored a few of the non-Jews.

SG:

There's been a lot of non-Jews who've earned the same, and they've earned it.

A.K.:

That's right. And the Club 60, I don't know of any Gentile organizations that started the senior citizen's clubs until this Club 60 started. And there was a woman in Louisville here at the time by the name of Till Meyers, she was a newcomer to Louisville, she didn't stay long, but she certainly left her mark before she left. In fact, she was the first one, way back must be 20 years ago that she around to the movie houses at that time and got them to issue cards. So that senior citizens could go to the movies for 50 cents instead of paying the top price.

A.K.:

And finally, that had spread all over the country. In fact, all the other movie houses had taken it up, and she started the Club 60. And then I noticed that all the churches and all beyond that, not only churches but neighborhoods, like the 33:00Brown Memorial, on Brown's lane that has a huge one that goes on out and those has become very, very lovely centers for people to find people of their own age to be with and people of their own ideas and thinking.

SG:

Was she one of the spirits that sat behind that thing you in then?

A.K.:

I'm sure she was.

SG:

Because I know that was started with a council woman-

A.K.:

Yes.

SG:

... $10,000 request. But was still one of the stars in starting that?

A.K.:

She definitely was.

SG:

She was quite a girl.

A.K.:

She was quite a girl is right, and it was a loss to Louisville when she left here.

SG:

Anne, I know there was a council project that you enjoyed doing and did a tremendous job in that Till started. Would you like to tell us about that?

A.K.:

Well, she started at the ... And had a hard time doing it, too. Nobody wanted to listen to her, and it was just as hard on the volunteers that she got to go there. It was started at the Barrett Junior High School, and we were to go there to help what they called, the under privileged children. Now, the Junior Barrett High School sits on Winsted Drive, and what they call the school district, isn't in one end or one side, it went in a periphery. The circle enlarged, and we had children that came from down on Washington Street and we had children that came from Cherokee Gardens, and so you had a varied number of pupils there from different backgrounds and different homes, and we were to help the children who were falling back in school, they weren't as bright as the others, they couldn't keep up.

A.K.:

And some of them, there was nothing wrong, they were just a little bit slow and it was such a pleasant project. And I got to meet so many nice people, made friends that I still have to this day, and I cherish them. And I was sorry when 35:00the project broke up, of course people get older and they resign, and the others who came in didn't have the same feeling for the program than the one's [crosstalk 00:35:20].

SG:

Was there a little trouble with the school finally? I mean they get a new principal who doesn't really understand it [crosstalk 00:35:25].

A.K.:

Yes, and that wasn't too interested in the volunteers because it took a lot, it had to work both ways than the councilors that we had then. We were very interested in the project and went out of their way to make it comfortable for the people who came there. And I was really sorry. And there was another program that the council did that was such a terrific project, that was the ... they went down to the, it was then called the city hospital who they had a psychiatric ward but they didn't even have a decent room that the people could come into and they left the ward and I think the women from the council went down there and scrubbed and painted, did this physically, they didn't hire it, they did it physically, scrubbed and painted the walls and decorated the windows and everything. And went there every week and gave parties for the people.

SG:

I've heard many compliments from the staff on that.

A.K.:

Yes. Yes, it was a beautiful program. What's her name, Mrs. Joseph-

SG:

Dorothy Joseph?

A.K.:

Yeah, she worked hard on that project, I remember her. I just happened to remember her name, there were a lot women there [crosstalk 00:36:39].

SG:

I think Sylvia Shapiro is very active, is she?

A.K.:

Yes, later. But [crosstalk 00:36:43] she was one of the earlier ones, yes. Sylvia worked quite hard on it. And then, I think, it was finally taken over, the hospital got big enough and the women got interested and formed-

SG:

Auxiliary.

A.K.:

Auxiliary of their own from the hospital and I think they took over the project.

SG:

Well, Anne, you'll be interested to know, but guess whose back doing it now? The Council of Jewish Women are back doing psychiatric-

A.K.:

Is that right?

SG:

They've asked us to come back.

A.K.:

Well, I think that's nice. Well, I guess they didn't do as well at it, the auxiliary. I think it was the smallness of the group that went, and the closeness of the group and the volunteers who felt they were going to a party each week when they were going to the ward.

SG:

It certainly must have given the volunteers a good feeling inside.

A.K.:

But I really loved the school project because I don't think that there's anything nicer that anybody can do while he's here on this earth to promote a child.

SG:

Yes.

A.K.:

I can think of a better project than this one, although I liked them both. But there was one little girl over there and the strange part of it was, she told me she was 16 years old, she had lost out in school and she thought that she was going to quit, and they're allowed to quit when they're 16. And then I tried to talk her into not quitting to go on with it. And then she told the counselors, 38:00she says "I don't remember the lady's name, but if you see her, tell her that I'm going to go on to school."

SG:

That's the greatest reward.

A.K.:

It is.

SG:

It's wonderful.

A.K.:

And it was amazing the way the children would attach themselves to the volunteer, as much as you tried not to, I got involved with them. I'd buy them shoes, and give them car checks when it'd rain so they could come to school, but it was fun.

SG:

Well, the child got a lot and it's good you got something out of it too.

A.K.:

Well, no volunteer is any good unless she enjoys the project and gets something out of it on her own. Otherwise, it's a chore, this way it's fun.

SG:

Oh, it's bad then.

A.K.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

SG:

Anne, do you remember what were the important buildings in town when you were a child? [crosstalk 00:39:03]

A.K.:

That are torn down now, you mean?

SG:

Or those that are still up, and those that are down.

A.K.:

The one that came to mind real quickly when you said important buildings, used to be the corner Dry Goods on the corner of 7th and Main Street and it's now going to be a museum.

SG:

Natural History Museum.

A.K.:

Yes, it's interesting [inaudible 00:39:26]. And when I went to the girl's high school, which we only had one high school in Louisville at that time, and it was located at 5th and Hill and I was always fascinated every morning passing St. James Court. And I'm so happy now that they're not going to take that away because I thought it was such a beautiful place with the two lions and the part that you entered. And there are a lot of beautiful homes that surround it. But I don't know, I think the mayor, Mayor Sloane bought one right across from there from the central park they called it. Which was a beautiful place, if you get a little more police protection to take care of them while they're down there.

A.K.:

But there's so many things with the expressways and all that tore down a lot of buildings. I was happy that it was a church or seminary on the corner of First and Broadway that became the Louisville Community College because the architecture in that was so beautiful. Also, the church that remained on Broadway near Preston on the north side of Broadway near Preston that has always gothic architecture, and it still stands as a land mark. A lot of the things have disappeared in the way for progress, I suppose.

SG:

Anne, early in the interview, you were talking about the "ghetto," quote, quote.

A.K.:

I didn't know it was a ghetto then.

SG:

Well, let's say where the Jewish people lived.

A.K.:

Yes. [crosstalk 00:41:04]

SG:

It really wasn't the ghetto, it was where the Jewish people lived.

A.K.:

Yes.

SG:

Roughly, what were the boundaries?

A.K.:

Well, it was there like, Preston Street, Market Street, to maybe as far as Walnut Street, Madison Street. Because I went to school at Floyd and Chestnut Street, they called it the Morris School. And it was that area that you know, that you walked through in the morning to get to school. We walked, we didn't have anybody take us at that time.

SG:

When did that area, when did the Jewish people start moving from that area?

A.K.:

Since they made a few bucks. And they're always wanted to better themselves, that was up most in their minds. They were never satisfied to stay in one place and when they saw other places that were prettier and better to live in, although the streets on, the buildings on Madison Street and Walnut Street, which is all I think is all mostly, it's all hospital now.

SG:

Yeah.

A.K.:

And they were nice looking homes, better homes in those days. But there was always, I don't know, the word ghetto now has connotations, but as I think of it there, I don't think of it that way, see?

SG:

Well it was no European ghetto, with walls.

A.K.:

No, no walls.

SG:

It was a voluntary situation.

A.K.:

Yeah, well there was no street cars, no buses, no place where you could go for anything. And I think one of the first natural parks that we ever had, we had way back even before my time I think. A man by the name of Jacobs became the mayor of Louisville and, what's out there now that they call Iroquois Park was called Jacobs Park.

SG:

There's a hill called Jacobs Hill out there.

A.K.:

Yeah, well that was named for him, so that was one of the first. Of course, Cherokee Park was a natural park but that was so far away, from where we lived it was too far to go.

SG:

Well did you all enjoy Jacob's Park at that time?

A.K.:

Yes, well, if you could get there.

SG:

I mean, did you all go sometime? Like, maybe you'd get a wagon or something and go out there or [crosstalk 00:43:22] take your Sunday lunch or something?

A.K.:

When you talk about that, it's hard. Maybe if I tell you, my mother died in 1905, and then you know, the holiday, it isn't a holiday, but the day they call Tisha B'Av when everybody was supposed to go to the cemetery to visit the dead. And the streetcars at that time were running but the streetcars, the Preston Streetcar ended where the St. Joseph's hospital is right now, which is Eastern Parkway.

SG:

That left you a lot of walking to do.

A.K.:

Well, it was too much walking. You couldn't walk because there was nothing to walk on. And there was a man here in town, he had an express wagon. So on that day he used to sit out there and he would drive his horse and wagon out to Preston and Eastern Parkway and wait until the rest of the people came out of 44:00the streetcar and then we got on this wagon and sat on these boards and bumped our way to the cemetery. So you see, it wasn't very pleasant getting any great distance because when the made streetcars, they didn't go very far. And that was the city limits at that time, I think when it ended at what is now Eastern Parkway, it wasn't anything then, it was land. And all the cemeteries were out that way, now they're going further and further out towards the east. The city has become quite large.

SG:

How large was the city then, do you remember?

A.K.:

No, it must have been very small. I don't ever recall, it didn't interest me at that age, I wasn't interested in how many people there were. I was only interested in who was next door to me, or something like that. I wasn't interested in how many people there were in Louisville. Louisville is a nice city. I was born here, I'm still here, I like it.

SG:

It's home.

A.K.:

Well I think it's become a lovely city and I think that we do have a beautiful Jewish community. You can have any form of religion you like from the ultra reform, although I think that they're al going back to the basics now, I think they're all ...

SG:

Anne, would you like to discuss the relations between the different congregations, the changes that have come over the years?

A.K.:

Yes. At one time, see, the part of Jewry that I came from, see ... I suppose, it was sort of a snobbery that you couldn't help. But the German Jews who came here, if you read in this book, The World of Our Fathers by Irving Howe, they came because they wanted to come. They weren't running from anything because 46:00they were well treated in Germany at that time, see? But the part that my family came from, they had to go under the Russian army, they lived under the czars, they had programs all the time. Aaron left there in 1914 and they were programed [inaudible 00:46:28].

SG:

That late?

A.K.:

Yeah, that late that he could still recall. And they came under different circumstances and the others came with wealth, well so called wealth. It was better than what the others had, they came with nothing. And of course, they stayed in their own little cliques, but all of that now has disappeared. It's just a question of which congregation do you belong right now? It means nothing, you say you belong to this one, you belong to that one, see?

SG:

There was not much intercourse between the different congregations?

A.K.:

At that time, I don't think there were.

SG:

And now, it's completely almost.

A.K.:

Well, it doesn't make too much difference now. So you're orthodox, or you're conservative, or you're reform, that's all, they just ask you which. And I don't think that it makes any difference. Or at least, I don't feel any [crosstalk 00:47:26].

SG:

I imagine though, that's not Louisville alone, I imagine that's nationwide.

A.K.:

Well, formally, the difference between the reform and the orthodox was that they did not go through, the reform did not go through the bar mitzvah ceremony with the boys. But I think now one little boy sees the other one, and I think it started because he sees the other one have all these big parties and get presents and he wants them, too. So it went into the other, I don't know if it had anything to do with the religion, I think it was the children that wanted it and saw it. Because they were intermixed, they went to they same schools whether they went to the same Sunday schools or not, they went to the same school, see?

A.K.:

Now I remember, at one time, we belonged to the, when my children were small, we belonged to the Keneseth, and it was very orthodox, see. And when I started the children to Sunday school, we were already living on Douglas Boulevard, and I would take them down to Keneseth, and there were so many children there that didn't live in their neighborhood and didn't go to their schools, and they felt strange. So I had to go to the other shul, I went to the Adath Jeshurun shul because the children they were in school with, their friends went to Adath Jeshurun.

A.K.:

So it had nothing to do with religion, we just went over there so they could go to the Sunday school with their friends. So that's why I say I don't think that it makes any great difference now, maybe to some of the older ones, but I don't think to the younger ones that it has that...it's just Jewish [crosstalk 00:48:55].

SG:

The way I think it is today, too, Anne. And I think it's a very fine thing [crosstalk 00:49:01].

A.K.:

I think it is, too. It was actually, it was a little child [inaudible 00:49:05] I think it was the children that... I know in my case it was. We stayed with the original ones because my parents had been with it, and his parents had been with it. But, I think they way it's become now, I think it's marvelous. Look how many nice rabbi's we've had on this ... what do they call this program?

SG:

[inaudible 00:49:25]

A.K.:

[inaudible 00:49:25] and one of them always sits up there and helps disperse the money that's raised in the children's crusade. I think there's a general mixture. It's not quite as hard to be a Jew right now as it used to be.

SG:

You know, Anne, it's great to talk to you. Because you make everything so optimistic.

A.K.:

Well, thank you. Well, I don't like to look back. [crosstalk 00:49:55]

SG:

You're not going to like the next question.

A.K.:

What's that?

SG:

What do you think are the bad parts? You only see the good.

A.K.:

Well, I can't see anything bad in anything that has progressed. If it was bad, forget it. I always say I don't like to look back because, although I'm not a biblical student, I still remember what happened to Lott's wife.

SG:

You don't want to be soft.

A.K.:

No, I don't want to be soft.

SG:

I don't think I really meant bad. I mean, do you see any clouds on the horizon for the Jewish people of Louisville?

A.K.:

Oh, I hope not. I don't even want to think about that.

SG:

Or is there anything about the community that disturbs you?

A.K.:

Right now, I really don't know. As I say, just seeing in the paper this morning why are they starting up this, he wants to reorganize the Conference of Christians and Jews. There must be some reason for it, I don't know.

SG:

Well there's been a little talk about anti-

A.K.:

Anti-Semitism.

SG:

Well that's starting over, now mother, what do you think? I don't know if there's something going on that I don't know about.

A.K.:

Well there is. I said something to mom, I said I went to see that movie, Garden of the Finzi-Continis, I think that's name.

SG:

That's the name of it.

A.K.:

And it was a very sad movie and as we were exiting, I saw two people there that I knew had been graduates of the Belsen concentration camp. And without thinking, I said "How could you sit through a picture like this, you know?" And she said, "It must be shown, it has to be shown, lest we forget." You must keep it in people's memory. And I think Dr. Byrd was there recently, the mosaic that he put on the wall, even a critic said at one time, [crosstalk 00:51:49]. [interview cuts off 00:51:52].

A.K.:

...enjoyed the play, he says when you look up on the wall and saw that. But then that's a reminder that this did happen, and it can happen again. And I think we have to be ever watchful, but I don't think that we should be [crosstalk 00:52:10]

A.K.:

No, it's to worry about. But I think rather than to worry, we should be watchful.

SG:

I think that's a good word.

A.K.:

Worrying is no good, they've got to be on the alert and stop it when it starts and not think that it's going to pass away as they did before. It's not going to pass unless you do something about it. And I think that their manner of bringing things, instead of saying well skip it, don't say anything about it, it's now talk about it and get it out in the open, and let everybody hear it and see it and then maybe they'd be too ashamed to go forward with it, or make any noise about it. But, I wouldn't want to be pessimistic about anything I don't think. Much easier to think that life can be beautiful, even in confusing times.

A.K.:

I know when my children went to school and they, I would have to go over and, they'd get into fights on account of anti-Semitism and I'd have to over and remind the principal of what was going on. And they always cooperated, they were always very nice about it, they tried to do what they could. Because well, you can't control people's thinking, so if you had a teacher that didn't like Jews, not the fact that he didn't like you didn't mean anything, but he voiced it. He could think all he wants to. But-

SG:

Would you like to tell us about that incident?

A.K.:

Well, the teacher, one of the kids that passed through the hall and he heard this teacher and another one talking and it wasn't meant for his ears, and one said "What do you think of Jews?" And he said, "Personally, I don't like them." And my child got it in for him and then he just kept on warring, warring with him until one day in his classroom, he was aggravating the teacher, and the teacher said, "Stop making an ass of yourself," and he says, "Well it takes one 54:00to call one." And that started a war, and he took him to the office and then he came to me and I had to go back and explain to the principal how this thing got started in the first place, that it didn't just happen today in the classroom.

A.K.:

I said that this man has a right to his opinion, he doesn't have to love Jews, that's his right. But I said, I've handled anti-Semitism longer than my child and I don't handle it this way, but I said he didn't know what else to do, so he got ugly about it. But I think he didn't punish him for walking out or for anything that he did, but I may have spoken to the teacher and told him to keep his thoughts to himself. If he didn't, I don't know but he didn't run into it anymore.

SG:

Anne, don't you think that this was always in Louisville or for many years been more or less a very minor, with smaller percentage or the population turnover?

A.K.:

No, I think it's varied. It pops up from time to time. But I always ask them, why are you angry? We gave your religion. Is that what you're angry about? You're worshiping a Jew? I said the only difference between what you think and what I think is that we're still looking for the Messiah and you think he was here and he's coming again. So, why fight about it? Let's see who is right.

SG:

Anne, your husband was born in Europe and he came over. Did he come over in about 1914, you said?

A.K.:

He came over in April 1914, just before the war broke out.

SG:

Now he came over, not so much because of the army, or was it because of the [inaudible 00:55:59]?

A.K.:

No, there was someone in the know over there that was friendly with his father who knew there was a storm brewing because the war broke out in August 1914.

SG:

I see.

A.K.:

And warned him to get out. And his mother told the father to go first, and he was afraid to cross the ocean, he got as far as France and he wanted to stay there. And she said, no she wouldn't come unless he went to America, and he came on over. In fact, they found out afterwards that both he and his father had been called up to the army, the Russian army.

SG:

Aaron?

A.K.:

Yes.

SG:

And his father?

A.K.:

Because the war dragged on, he would have been old enough to go. He wasn't then, but he would have been.

SG:

And when he came to this country, what did his father do?

A.K.:

I never could figure that out, he had a brother that lived in Chicago and he came to him first.

SG:

Aaron's uncle?

A.K.:

Yes, Aaron's uncle. And then, I don't know, I never could find out how they ever got to a little place called Tatonka, Wisconsin. And then his mother had a distant cousin in Louisville, and she insisted on coming to Louisville. Maybe I was calling him, I don't know. But it was my luck that he came.

SG:

That's nice. Then they went in the butcher business?

A.K.:

No, no. They were in some kind of they were in the shoe business or something. They were dragging all those shoes by train down here to Louisville and they-

SG:

The ones they had in Wisconsin?

A.K.:

Yes, the ones they had in Wisconsin. And they got down somewhere here, 9th and Market or some place like that and they opened the shoe store and that didn't go very good. Then they went into the grocery business and that was at Hancock and Spencer. But then he only been here when I married him, he's only been here about seven years.

SG:

Did Aaron go to school here at all?

A.K.:

Yes. But he went there with, they called the gymnasium, which was like the high school here, and they put him in, it was very difficult for him because he was ... Well, he was in his teens already and they put him in something like that. 58:00But he went to high school here, but it was too hard to do too much studying.

SG:

Did he speak English then?

A.K.:

Not too well. I taught him to speak better. But his mother never did learn to talk, his mother was speaking ... I couldn't speak Yiddish, I could always understand it, but I couldn't speak it. But when I married him, he came up with a mother and a grandmother who couldn't speak English. So, I could understand everything they were saying to me, but I couldn't answer them. And in desperation, I couldn't teach them English, and in desperation, I began picking up the Yiddish words and handing it back to them so I could make myself understood, and eventually I wound up speaking Yiddish fluently. And they never did learn English. I kept on talking Yiddish and I perfected my Yiddish by talking to them. For which I'm very happy, it's fun.

SG:

I would imagine you come to a country late-

A.K.:

It's very hard [crosstalk 00:59:19]. Maybe get out and wondered what would happen to me if I went into imagine going into a country like France and trying to learn French enough to speak. But I think the trouble with our language is, I think the children would pick them up faster if they would concentrate, go back and get the grammar afterwards. But teaching them how to speak first before you have to decline and decide what case it is and whether you're saying him or her and-

SG:

I think you're right.

A.K.:

German was always so difficult with their [inaudible 00:59:50], they had neuters and feminine.

SG:

They don't teach right.

A.K.:

Well, I think they found that out during the war years, when they sent the men over, they started to get the records and they started teaching them how to speak, how to say a phrase or I've lost, or where's the park? Or where's the bathroom? Or this they taught them things like that instead of worrying about where the bathroom was, masculine or feminine, or neuter [inaudible 01:00:23].

SG:

Anne, back to when you were child, did most of the annual event in the neighborhood where all the Jews live mostly, were there a lot of Yiddish spoken down there?

A.K.:

Yes.

SG:

Much English?

A.K.:

Very little [inaudible 01:00:42]. Only to their customers who couldn't understand Yiddish so they had to speak English or had the children translate for them. But I think that happens with all the foreigners. Because in one time, I forget when it was, was after the Second World War. That [Selma 01:00:59] McLean asked me to go because it said the ... It was the YMHA still down there on Second Street to teach English to the new Americans that were coming in. And I didn't want them to know that I could speak Yiddish because I thought if they 61:00knew I could speak Yiddish, they would come after me with the Yiddish and they wouldn't give me the English.

A.K.:

And it was very difficult to try to ... Especially if I had one I'm in there that she could only speak Italian. And another one she had knew English and she didn't know Yiddish. So, I had to get one that could understand Yiddish and speak Italian that can translate back to this one, see, because you almost had to be a linguist and a linguist I was not. I could handle the English and the Yiddish, but that was about it.

A.K.:

And that was the first time, which was a very good thing, although they probably didn't appreciate it. They had to learn to speak, to read, and write English before they could become citizens. That never was a requirement till after the Second World War.

SG:

Oh, you had to read and write before you could become-

A.K.:

You had to read and write before you can become a citizen now. In years gone by they didn't do that, somebody would teach them just what they had to learn and then they grew up in ...