Annette Sagerman:
My story of the chickens is only because it's fairly typical of our Louisville
Jewish community that when all of these chickens and chicken soup and matzoh balls spoil, naturally we had to have food for the [inaudible 00:00:17] out at Fort Knox. [Morris Simon 00:00:21], a blessed memory, stationed himself at one of the butcher shops.A.S.:
When our Louisville Jewish housewives went in to buy their orders at the butcher
shops after they would give evidence of the ration stamps that they owed for buying meat, which they probably saved up for the holiday, Morris would ask them. Now, give us the meat that you bought and explain to them what had happened, that we had to throw away a lot of our food. The money we could get donated, Morris would write us the check at a moment's notice, so that part wasn't a problem. But we really had to replace the meat and the chickens.A.S.:
And we took away everybody's meat orders as they came through and their chickens
1:00because there were no more chickens left in the city of Louisville. There were many meatless seders that year because it was very typical of our Louisville Jewish community to hand over their big packages of meat to Morris Simon and our soldiers had a traditional meal, even though many of the families here in Louisville did not have.A.S.:
That was not an unusual kind of thing to have happen. Cigarettes were something
that were just about non-existent in Louisville and some of the cigarette companies, in light of our present day information, I don't know that it was such a favor but at the time, it seemed like a tremendous favor, used to send us over cartons of cigarettes for our service men who were here on weekends.A.S.:
We literally rationed out cigarettes. We would hand the service man a cigarette
2:00when he came in to register for his bed, and by the way these beds were 35 cents a bed in our dormitories. Keneseth Israel, which was just a block or so away from us, also had a dormitory and we would give them a dormitory check and a cigarette. This was really a big deal that they would get for 35 cents.A.S.:
They would come in and register for their dormitory beds immediately because
there was such a shortage of overnight places that after our dormitories were full and we checked with the other USOs and there were no dormitory spaces left, we would start calling families and ask them if they would take a serviceman overnight on Saturday night, that there was just no place to stay.A.S.:
One of the very popular places was the lawn at the public library, by the way,
and this really wasn't in any kind of decent weather. There were servicemen who were supposed to have been run away by policemen. Instead, they enjoyed police protection because the police really realized that there was just no place else 3:00for them to go.A.S.:
The other thing that I really do think is relevant to the armed services story
is that we used to have what we call USO show troops. Morris Simon, again, who was Mr. Music. He really was very active in music circles here and by the way, the originator of our Jewish communities, or our then YMHA orchestra of which the local Louisville Civic Orchestra is an offshoot, were all originated by Morris Simon.A.S.:
This man could not read a note of music and was the most dedicated individual
probably known to man in the field of music. He organized USO show troops which were composed of professional and semi-professional acts that went to Fort Knox 4:00once and twice a month and would put on four shows on a Sunday.A.S.:
These people would literally drop when they... It was interesting to see the bus
that left the YMHA and the bus that came back to the YMHA. The one that left was noisy and excited and that sort of thing and the one that returned, 2:00 in the morning, came back with people absolutely hanging over seats and exhausted and don't forget, this was not in air conditioning days.A.S.:
Those hot rides to and from Fort Knox in the hot afternoon sun and the un-air
conditioned service [inaudible 00:04:45] which were absolutely sweat baths, but these were boys who did not get into town, sometimes they just wanted some room on the buses to bring them into town. They could get a pass but there was no way, by the time they finished standing in line, the pass period was ended. 5:00A.S.:
So, they did have some excellent entertainment down at Fort Knox. A couple of
the acts I think of right at the moment actually went on to fame and fortune. The Petticoats, which appeared on Arthur Godfrey's show in later years, originated as The House Sisters, three sisters here at our old YMHA, which entertained at Fort Knox and Morris Simon discovered these young kids from Memphis, Indiana. He used to come in and go out on our USO shows.A.S.:
Stop this. Hold on. We on?
Margo Kling:
Yeah, we're on.
A.S.:
All right. I remained with the USO until 1964. At that time, the USO's money was
very short and they determined that their funds were better spent in overseas 6:00clubs, so they withdrew funds, excuse me, from this operation and the USO Jewish Welfare Board office was closed down and the Jewish Community Center took over the armed services program.A.S.:
I became the Jewish Community Center armed services worker, half time. Right
after this happened, this happened I think in February, and in March or April, Israel [Naumani 00:06:38] who was the Bureau of Jewish Education director had had a severe coronary and was going to have to curtail some of his activity.A.S.:
So, Arthur Kling, with whom you may be acquainted, contacted me and in a
sense... Or not in a sense, he emphatically told me I would now work the other half time for the Bureau of Jewish Education as Israel Naumani's administrative 7:00assistant and that if I would like to come in the next day and discuss it, it was all right with him.A.S.:
Arthur Kling had spoken and I went in the next day and spoke with Israel Naumani
and with Arthur Kling and I became the Bureau of Jewish Education administrative assistant. Shortly... Well, not really shortly after that, I think it was that September, Israel had a severe coronary and was never able to return to the bureau.A.S.:
So, for two long years, there was a period when he had not been replaced, when
there were interviews and decisions and studies. The Jewish community education was studied by Dr. [Dinski 00:07:57] and there was no executive director of the bureau. During that time, we carried on as best we could. 8:00A.S.:
I stayed with the bureau for 10 years and then in 1974, I guess it was, I was
offered the opportunity to work for the Jewish Community Center full time as the adult program worker and this I welcomed for a lot of reasons. It was very difficult working in two capacities. There's really no such thing as two half time jobs when they're both sitting at the same desk. It's very difficult to allocate that kind of time.A.S.:
I guess my age was catching up with me. I was finding it a little bit more
difficult to work this arrangement out. So, I very happily took the adult job which, by the way, was the gun... Well, that's not really what I want to say. 30 9:00years ago, David had that job. That was where my romance began, is what I should say.A.S.:
I had worked myself up 30 years later to the job that David held when I met him.
I won't tell you, not because I earn it necessarily, but because time's have changed, I won't tell you the difference in the salaries from then and now. It's fantastic that he finally got a raise but $37.50 a year before he left here but he did go back to St. Louis and to George Warren Brown School of Social Work.M.K.:
[inaudible 00:09:47].
A.S.:
I might tell you because I do enjoy a great deal of pride in our Jewish
Community Center. In fact, my husband accuses me of being the proudest American, 10:00Jewish, Kentucky, Jefferson County, Louisville, Jewish Community Center person in the world and I probably am. I like being in Louisville and I like being at the Louisville Jewish Community Center.A.S.:
When I go any place, I visit Jewish community centers and after 34 years of
being around a Jewish Community Center, I have some basis for making a judgment and I really don't think we have to take a backseat to anybody. Our building is always busy. Our adult program is as varied as we can possibly get it, as far as an expression of interest is concerned.A.S.:
We have classes in the arts, in oil painting, watercolors, figure sketching,
ceramics, all that sort of thing. We bring a scholar in residence here from Israel each year for two weeks, who visits our center and brings a little 11:00Israeli flavor to Jewish organizations here as well as to community organizations.A.S.:
Our most recent one spoke to 1,110 people as best we can count during her two
weeks here and did, by the way, go to Canada for a rest after she left here. Our orchestra has continued uninterruptedly even during the war, by the way, and again I sound like a patron of Morris Simon and I guess I am.A.S.:
Even during the war, when we lost our orchestra conductor, Morris Simon was
instrumental in combining the services of a USO director, who was himself a musician, and Jack [Gottley 00:11:49] kept our orchestra going when our civilian director was drafted.A.S.:
Ruben Sher, who is well known in music circles here, directed our orchestra
12:00until this past year. Now we have another very capable conductor who teaches music at Seneca High School, Joe [Klein 00:12:10]. We have people who have played... Mr. Silver. Eric Silver has played with this orchestra for something like 40 years, so both he and the orchestra must be doing something right.M.K.:
What about the theater? Do you have anything to do with that?
A.S.:
Yes. The Heritage Theater is in my department. Heritage did Milk and Honey last
year which was very successful. They did a couple of things which were a little bit less successful. This coming year, we are hoping to revamp the entire Heritage Theater program and perhaps do just one instead of three plays and make it one big musical.A.S.:
Hopefully, The Education of Hyman Kaplan, which you're probably too young to
13:00remember, but it was a darling book about immigrants coming to this country and it has now been made into a musical and we are hoping that that will be the musical that Heritage Theater does.A.S.:
They also do skits and one act plays and have entertained for many of the local
organizations, the sisterhoods and that sort of thing. By the way, again, because I always have to mention the armed services, I guess this really is my first love. I have to tell you, because it's very fresh in my mind, that we just sent out our letter.A.S.:
Again, we are one of the organizations who has an uninterrupted history of
serving the veterans at the Veteran's Hospital, the patients at the Veteran's Hospital. Each of our women's organizations in this community goes out to the Veteran's Hospital and gives [inaudible 00:13:57] parties and prizes and refreshments and that sort of thing once a month for the patients who can't 14:00leave the wards. Even that is something very special for our Jewish Community Center, I think.A.S.:
I did want to add, in my area of endeavor, that we are attempting something that
seems to be the in thing in many of the centers now, family programming. We are trying to make a whole evening of programs that will interest mothers and fathers as well as children of all ages in different programs running simultaneously.A.S.:
This also, by the way, includes some single parents who look for things to do
with their children and this seems, in other communities, to be working well.M.K.:
Is there a singles club or a program for single parents?
15:00A.S.:
We have just established a group called single parents which we are, at this
point, not making any attempt to make a social thing. Not that I have any objection to the men and women meeting and becoming social friends, but our main thrust has been we've had one session on budget counseling for some of these young divorcees, and most of them are divorcees, a couple of them are windows, who really find themselves thrown into a situation where they aren't able to handle budgeting and probably didn't in their married situation.A.S.:
There is that kind of thing. We had one session with a social worker who
specializes in that kind of situation where a mother feels that she has to say yes more often than she would like to to her children because she has to compensate for the fact that there's not a father around. Or in one of the 16:00cases, there's a father who had a similar problem.A.S.:
We've had that kind of thing. We're going to have one on... [inaudible
00:16:18]. We're going to have a session on estate planning which is also a vital part for these people. In addition, of course we want to integrate them into our regular family programming, which we hope will work out.A.S.:
I think you really might be interested in knowing, if you don't already, that we
have a very active senior adult program in which I'm not involved except that I happen to be a busybody and the office is right next to mine and I'm very much interested and impressed by the things that they do.A.S.:
We have a nutrition program. Lunches are served here Sundays through Thursday
and I think it's interesting, by the way. I have to tell you that most nutrition 17:00programs in the community are Monday through Friday, but tradition dictates with our Jewish housewives or even the men, that somehow Friday is the day that you prepare for Shabbos and many of these people are living alone and really do not any longer do anything special for Shabbos, but it's traditional that they not go out, that they have to be busy Friday during the day.A.S.:
So, our Friday attendance was very small and it was changed to Sunday in order
to get the five days in. There is a great deal of sociability that goes along with this that is just fabulous. There are two men who are brothers who have been coming here and I remember thinking at the time that I thought I knew everybody in the city of Louisville and these men had been here probably all their lives, I didn't even know they existed.A.S.:
They have no family here. When they first came in, they live in a nursing home
someplace downtown, they really were like zombies. They had the most expressionless faces and now, if you would see them, it is so touching. They 18:00greet all of us when they come in here and they are so animated. They play pool in the game rooms now. Excuse me.A.S.:
Really all of this started with the nutrition and the transportation, by the
way. We have a fabulous setup of a Red Cross van and driver that give these people the pick up and delivery service and this makes a tremendous difference. I know there's a member of my own family who found it difficult to get here when she lost her driver and who had really stopped coming to the programs and now is a regular again.A.S.:
This is a marvelous asset. If you'd see this place on Tuesdays, in particular,
because that's big program day, it is just beautiful. Also, at the other end of the spectrum, by the way, we have an extremely active children's department 19:00here. Our crafts and our gym and those programs that attract children on a regular basis, plus the fact that a few years ago, we began what we call Kiddush Kinder and these children are as young as four years old or three years old. One of the groups has three year olds in it.A.S.:
These children have a Friday afternoon of gameplaying and that sort of thing
which ends in benching lift and making Kiddush on Friday afternoons and it's just beautiful. Of course, our junior high school aged children are active here and as a matter of fact, so much so that there is an effort being made to get a worker, at least part time, who will work with the junior high school children or young people, excuse me. They don't want to be called children. I guess they really aren't.A.S.:
Our senior high groups, which is composed of clubs in addition to the mass
20:00activities that they do, I don't know if you know that they raised something like $1100 for the United Jewish Campaign last year from their skit night. They do a cooperative venture, writing original skits and participating in them and of course, they charge admission. The proceeds go to the United Jewish Campaign.A.S.:
They, of course, have their basketball leagues and their softball. Our
basketball team came in second in the nation this year. They won the national championship two years ago, but they have fun and the fact that they win the championship is incidental, I hope. At least we all say so.M.K.:
[inaudible 00:20:55]
A.S.:
A newly arrived staff member, newly arrived last year by the way, has a
21:00particularly unique function here. The community provides us with a shaliah.Margo Kling:
What is a shaliah?
A.S.:
Shaliah literally means messenger and this is an Israeli messenger, he brings
the message of Israel to the Louisville Jewish community and in particular, in our case, to the Jewish Community Center because this is where his office is. He is involved in all Israeli-oriented program, ongoing program besides that which he himself initiates.A.S.:
He's very busy right this minute, by the way, in doing his share of the
Belvedere Jewish Heritage exhibits. He goes out into the community, he has spoken at practically every public school in this community. As part of their history lessons, they're learning about the state of Israel and he brings the message of the state of Israel to the public school systems as well as to all of 22:00our Jewish organizations and to inject Israeli programming into all of our ongoing program. He's really been a very interesting asset to the community and to the Jewish Community Center.A.S.:
By the way, as I look around this room, I think that it is worth mentioning that
our community, and particularly our kids who might not be so inclined to visit art museums are treated to art exhibits in our patio room. Every month, we have a different artist exhibiting and in different forms of art. One of the months, by the way, is set aside for our own students, both the children and the adult students to exhibit their art. One of our children's paintings, by the way, sold 23:00this last exhibit we had last May.A.S.:
We were able to make a lot of the Jewish community centers jealous. Some of them
have better views than we do, because they're built on hillsides and that sort of thing like in West Orange, New Jersey and when they look out their window they see some beautiful shrubs and trees, but they don't see the ball diamonds and the tennis courts and the second pool. We have not only an Olympic sized pool here, but we have a lap pool beside it that is really unique.A.S.:
There are some communities who have attempted to have folding doors and to make
their indoor pools look like outdoor, but we can really boast of the two outdoor pools as well as the indoor pool and our two kiddie pools that have the same kinds of filters that our big pools have, so they're not just places for little 24:00children to use the potties anymore.A.S.:
In addition to our own ongoing program here at the center, I think it is worthy
of mention that our center houses the Louisville Jewish Day School which is a full day school, a parochial school which is accredited by the state of Kentucky and they make full use of our facilities. Their children get swimming lessons and use our gym facilities and make good use of the second second floor of our building.A.S.:
In addition, about a half hour after they are dismissed, the Louisville Hebrew
School, afternoon Hebrew school meets in these same classrooms and you think that's not tight scheduling, you try to get the papers picked up from the first group in time for the second group to go into a nice, neat classroom which 25:00usually works out.A.S.:
The library, which is down here off our front lobby, is run by the Bureau of
Jewish Education which is also housed in this building. I don't know whether you're aware that several mornings a week, buses bring handicapped children and retarded children who are getting swim lessons in our pool and by our staff. This is a very important community contribution that we make here.A.S.:
Of course, our rooms are always filled with [inaudible 00:25:46], Council of
Jewish Women, all of whom meet here in our [inaudible 00:25:52]. Men and women, all of whom meet here in our building and make use of our facilities, our kitchen facilities, which are used like 25 hours a day now. 26:00M.K.:
Annette, I thank you very much for a very interesting interview and this is
being concluded on August the 8th, 1970...A.S.:
August 9th. It was begun...
M.K.:
August 9th, 1977 in the patio room of the Jewish Community Center.
M.K.:
This is Margo Kling at the Jewish Community Center on August the 8th,
interviewing Annette Sagerman. This is sponsored by the U of L archives and the Jewish community federation. Annette, if you would give us a little bit of your background.A.S.:
My background is a very ordinary one, I'm afraid. I was born in Louisville and
have lived in Louisville all my life. I've been educated in Louisville. My 27:00father was born in Latvia and came here for the reason that many Jewish people came in those days, to escape religious persecution. He had studied at yeshiva in Latvia and was not particularly interested in being a rabbi, for many reasons, not the least of which is he used to tell us that his family was very, very poor.A.S.:
Some of the wealthier families considered it [foreign language 00:27:36] as well
as a mitzvah, I suppose, to house or at least offer home hospitality to yeshiva [foreign language 00:27:48] and he found it a very uncomfortable experience to be wined and dined, as he said, on such luxuries as oranges and peas when his family was really in want. 28:00M.K.:
When did your father came here?
A.S.:
My father came here in 1905 and came by way of New York to Cleveland to
Louisville. The old man Hamburg who was not unknown in Louisville, a fixture on Preston Street between Jefferson and Market, was my father's uncle, my grandmother's brother and he had come to this country and to Louisville many years before. It was through him who my father came... I guess he would be considered my father's sponsor or something.A.S.:
Mr. Hamburg had what was considered a pawn shop. It was originally I guess
considered a secondhand store. As he became a little bit more "sophisticated", he became a pawn broker which, by the way, many years later cost him his life, 29:00but that's a later story.A.S.:
Anyway, he was right down the street from the bath house, the public bath house
which was a great opportunity to catch people coming and going. He'd stand outside and wait until they were clean before he stopped them to ask them to come in to buy clothes. Why he was inhibited by their lack of cleanliness, I don't know because he wasn't known especially for his own cleanliness.M.K.:
What about your mother?
A.S.:
My mother was American born. My mother was born in St. Louis and was five years
younger than my father. My mother was born in 1885. No, wait a minute, my father was born... In 1895 and my mother also had some very old roots in Louisville. There was a Nathan Gold who lived here. This was my mother's uncle who had a business on Jefferson Street. His claim to fame was he had a home on 43rd and Broadway and this was where my parents met. 30:00A.S.:
My mother came here to visit her mother's brother. I'm trying to think of how to
tell you who Mr. Gold was. I don't know if you remember Evelyn Gold, who was married to Haskell Miller. It was her grandfather. She just died very recently, but this family dates back... Mrs. Gold was a [Specter 00:30:32] and dates back many, many years.A.S.:
Do you remember Stewart Specter's father who walked on crutches? Well, this was
his sister.M.K.:
Then your parents were married...
A.S.:
My parents were married in St. Louis. My mother came here to mend a broken
heart. My grandmother broke up a romance that had lasted six years but I don't think my grandmother realized it was a romance until my mother became engaged. 31:00That was the days when mothers and fathers could tell their children what to do and my grandmother said she didn't want this marriage because this man's father was Jake [Passard 00:31:14] who was a St. Louis man and my mother, as I said, was a St. Louis woman.A.S.:
Had a father and a brother who died of tuberculosis and my grandmother decided
that my mother would be a young widow if she married this man. She broke up the romance. By the way, I have to tell you that ultimately he outlived my father and passed away around the same time as my mother did, because my family in St. Louis stayed in touch.M.K.:
Your parents lived here in Louisville.
A.S.:
Yes, my mother came here to mend a broken heart and she stayed on 43rd and
Broadway. Please don't forget that, it's very-M.K.:
Very important.
A.S.:
My mother's claim to fame was that they met in my aunt's home, my great aunt's home.
M.K.:
And then you were born...
A.S.:
I was born in 1924. I was the second of our children. My sister Lorraine, who
32:00passed away 11 years ago, was born in 1918, right after World War I. I was born in 1924 and my parents had a plan of putting a child in school and having another baby because my mother worked with my father in the grocery business.A.S.:
My kid sister, Selma-Jean, is five and a half years younger than I. We say we're
six years apart, but this is all in Louisville. We all lived here all our lives and were educated in Louisville. In Lorraine's and my cases, we even married damned Yankees and brought them to Louisville to teach them how to live.M.K.:
Then after your education, after your schooling, after your education, how did
you become involved in the Jewish community?A.S.:
Well, a very much involved and very influential gentleman called Charles W.
33:00Morris, for whom my cousin Mildred Margolies, later Beyer, was working for the then Conference of Jewish Organizations. Charlie Morris had the conference office in his law office and Mildred had worked temporarily for the United Jewish Campaign which used to engage clerical workers for brief periods during the height of the campaign.A.S.:
She worked for Charlie Morris and when Charlie Morris tells somebody in his
office, "Get a girl to work in a Jewish Welfare Board office which is going to open in Louisville", you get a girl to work in the Jewish Welfare Board office and Mildred contacted me and asked me.A.S.:
I was going to school at the time, asked me if I would work part time and that
was my introduction to the Jewish Welfare Board, which was where I started. Charlie Morris had decided that there should be a regional office here for all 34:00of the armed services offices in what was then called the fifth service command. It was Kentucky, Indiana, Ohio, parts of Tennessee. As I said, when Charlie Morris said it should be, it came about.M.K.:
Where was this office located?
A.S.:
In the [inaudible 00:34:20] Taylor building, not coincidentally, right down the
hall from Charlie Morris's office.M.K.:
Right.
A.S.:
He brought a man, [Matt Handler 00:34:29] who had been the professional in the
Chicago office. They brought them here and I worked as Matt Handler's secretary. As I say, I was going to school at the time and it wasn't a busy office, so there was an opportunity for all of these things to happen. He traveled a great deal and...M.K.:
And then from there, where did you go?
A.S.:
From there, I went to the Jewish Community Center. That was in 1940... I went
into the regional office in 1943 and then the Jewish Community Center when Matt Handler- 35:00M.K.:
Which at that time was the old YMHA.
A.S.:
That's right. Yes, I went to the YMHA. There wasn't a Jewish Community Center
for many years, until many years later. At that time, Bert Horowitz was the executive director. The first USO man was Ray Fisher and he had left and had gone to an overseas assignment and to the Jewish Welfare Board. Bert Horowitz, who the last I heard was Jewish [inaudible 00:35:42] professional in Pittsburgh, he may still be. I don't know if he's even still alive.A.S.:
But he did have a very busy office and he worked in, what was called then I
think, program aid.M.K.:
Now, I'm sure you have some very interesting experiences in this particular job
36:00that perhaps might be interesting.A.S.:
I mean, the job was an experience. Everyday there was an experience. By the time
I came to the YMHA, it was 1944. The war didn't end until the next year, so that we still had the servicemen, the single servicemen who came from all over the country and many of them, an overwhelming majority of the Jewish servicemen seemed to be from the east, from the New York, New Jersey area.A.S.:
Mostly because they went first to Fort Dix, New Jersey for their training and
when Fort Dix was filled, the second post to come to was Fort Knox. Fort Knox is the third largest army camp in the country. Fort Dix is the first largest. Fort 37:00Benning [Judge 00:37:02] which was paratroopers and not many of our boys went into the paratroops.A.S.:
The third largest camp did receive most of or many, many, many of the eastern
Jewish boys. The percentages went way up when you'd get draftees from the eastern seaboard. The percentage went up from 0.4% to sometimes up to 1% because, of course, the Jewish population is denser in that part of the country.M.K.:
Just specifically, what did you do? What was your function?
A.S.:
[crosstalk 00:37:39] We had Saturday night dances, we had Sunday morning
brunches, we had Sunday night suppers and we had dormitories by the way. The gym in the old YMHA was turned into a dormitory and during the week, it provided a marvelous opportunity for kids to have pillow fights with the pillows that were 38:00stored in the gym. This really was not an unusual experience.A.S.:
We did what we called personal services which almost entirely at that time
consisted of tracking down homes for married servicemen to share. We used to have what we called bedrooms and kitchen privileges. It was a very patriotic thing for our local families to share a bedroom, in some cases their child was in service someplace else and they rented out this child's room.A.S.:
Just this summer, by the way, in West Orange, New Jersey, I met a woman who
works at the West Orange center, West Orange Y as they call it, who told me she had been in Louisville during this period and she couldn't remember the name of the people with whom she had lived.A.S.:
When she told me she lived on Fernwood and the husband was in service, I
happened to realize it was my cousin, was Sam Goldberg who was in service and 39:00Gertie was renting out his room. She also lived at one time with the Bronstein family whose son was killed in a hand grenade accident out at Fort Knox, I don't know if you're familiar with that.M.K.:
No, I'm afraid I'm not.
A.S.:
But his first name escapes me for the second. Sidney. Sidney Bronstein. This was
the case every place that we found rooms for young couples. We spent our days when we weren't sending the couples out to look for rooms calling families who we knew had sons in service and asking them if they wouldn't rent a room.A.S.:
We did what we called war records. There was an opinion or at least there was an
opinion that there was an opinion. I never heard it, but the Jewish Welfare Board must've known what they were talking about when they established what was called a War Records division because there was a feeling that there might be 40:00some anti-Semitic opinion that Jewish boys served only in the quartermaster where it was safe.A.S.:
So, we kept very accurate war records, the result of which is a two volume set
which still exists in this library and which many of us here in Louisville own called American Jews in World War II. We kept records of citations that our local boys had received, God forbid been killed in action or wounded in action, missing in action.A.S.:
We kept a war records board up at the old YMHA which resulted in a bronze plaque
that is now in existence I think at the front entrance of the building. This building by the way was dedicated because a gentleman named Louis Cohen, who was the first chairman of what was then called the Army and Navy Committee, 41:00remembered many years later that during the war when there was some discussion of a new building.A.S.:
At that time, it was going to be on 4th and Kentucky, [inaudible 00:41:14]. When
there was talk of building a new building and of course, all of these plans had to be held up during the war when there were no building materials, there was a resolution passed that the new building, when it was built, would be dedicated to the men and women who had served in the armed services in World War II.A.S.:
Well, there was a long span of time from the end of the war in 1945 until the
actual occupancy of our present building- [crosstalk 00:41:50]M.K.:
You're now talking about the Jewish Community Center building on Dutchmans Lane.
A.S.:
Right. I'm sorry, I forget, yes. We changed from the YMHA to the Jewish
Community Center which was the new building which was being considered prior to 42:00World War II actually and then, as I say, was held up. During that time, a lot of things had happened and it wasn't as in to be concerned about the servicemen then as it had been in 1944 when this decision had been made.A.S.:
But Louis Cohen was able to put his finger on the minutes from 11 years back and
had reminded the powers that were then that the decision was made that this building would be dedicated. This Jewish Community Center on Dutchmans Lane, successor to the YMHA, would be dedicated to the men and women of the armed services and it was.M.K.:
Then meanwhile, you moved your office up to the new Jewish Community Center-
A.S.:
Right.
M.K.:
... on Dutchmans Lane.
A.S.:
Right.
M.K.:
Continued your same function [crosstalk 00:42:52], more or less a liaison
between Fort Knox, the Jewish boys at Fort Knox, and the Jewish community in Louisville.A.S.:
Right. By the way, I would say that this is still the case. Of course, things
43:00have changed and my own function has changed but we are still very much involved-Speaker 3:
[inaudible 00:43:11] I just wanted to say "Hi".
A.S.:
The point that I was going to make when we were interrupted for a couple minutes
that I think is really very important is that Louisville, somewhat uniquely, has an uninterrupted history of service to Jewish men in service. Even when USO funds were withdrawn in Louisville in 1964, the Jewish community accepted a responsibility for continuing to serve men in service, or men and women in the service. I guess I should say persons in this area.A.S.:
They are still being served, just as we had Oneg Shabbats following religious
44:00services from time in memoriam and by the way-M.K.:
This is at Fort Knox you're referring to.
A.S.:
Yeah, at Fort Knox. By the way, I should say our Army and Navy Committee really
was organized before there became a USO. Before nationally people became aware that it was necessary to serve servicemen in an organized fashion, our Louisville Jewish community undertook to form what was called the Army and Navy Committee.A.S.:
This committee was formed in 1940 and there was no national organization until
February 1941. I think this says something for our farsighted Louisville Jewish community. The Oneg Shabbats at Fort Knox, which at that time arranged for busloads of what we called junior hostesses and senior hostesses to go out to 45:00Fort Knox and serve salami sandwiches.A.S.:
I guess you are aware that World War II was won with salami sandwiches. It
really was. Not only for the Jewish servicemen it served, but I guess now it can be told that salami sandwiches were the best bribes in the world to the motor pool people who managed to get us buses to transport our hostesses when some of the other USO clubs couldn't figure out how we could manage these things but with rationing and all that sort of thing.A.S.:
By the way, salami was purchased in the heat of rationing or in the midst of
rationing. Meat was very closely rationed and that's why many of the servicemen who were served dinners were served fish and that sort of thing, because we saved up our ration stamps to buy salami because there was no way we could win 46:00that war without salami. Thankfully, we did manage.A.S.:
But, that brings me to another thought that there was another USO club on the
other side of Fort Knox called [inaudible 00:46:16] Radcliff USO Club and twice a week, our women used to go out here and prepare kosher dinners which was in itself a feat, but with the rationing, with the very tight rationing of canned goods as well as meat and almost anything that would be considered good, a lot of people used their own ration stamps.A.S.:
They gave us their own ration stamps in addition to the ones that we were
allocated so that we could have good, nutritious meals made by Jewish mothers who wanted to see that these boys were taken care of.A.S.:
The USO program itself in Louisville was held in the old YMHA which was turned
47:00over pretty much to the armed services program, the Army and Navy program. Most of the Jewish people at that time lived in that general area, if not right at 2nd and Jacob, on the 2nd Street car line which was the important thing, between the university and let's say Kentucky Street and particularly around Hill, Lee, Galbert, Magnolia, all of those fun streets where we all grew up.A.S.:
The YMHA was very easily accessible. It was also well located as far as the bus
station was concerned, which was the haven for servicemen who couldn't get on buses. There was no way that all of the servicemen who came into town on 48:00weekends could get Greyhound bus service, but it was a place where you could hitch rides.A.S.:
Anybody who had an extra seat in his car that was going to travel down Dixie
Highway automatically drove past the bus station to see if he could pick up a solider or two. In those days, they weren't considered hitchhikers. I shudder now to think of doing that sort of thing even for a serviceman. But during World War II, that was considered a very patriotic thing to do.A.S.:
It later became quite a business for the servicemen themselves who were
fortunate enough to have cars. They would pick up servicemen at the bus station at Fort Knox and bring them to the bus station here in Louisville for a stipulated fee and the same thing happened when the men would go back. The men, these were really boys.M.K.:
Now, these boys would come in for the holidays.
A.S.:
They'd come in for holidays as well as for weekends.
49:00M.K.:
And you would see to it that they were housed in homes.
A.S.:
We placed as many as 250 servicemen over a Passover or a Rosh Hashanah or Yom
Kippur holiday. The problem was never getting homes in Louisville where our boys would be welcomed. It was more of having the boys not having their passes rescinded at the last minute and having the families disappointed. But again, there was food rationing and the families would save up their ration stamps so that they could have a roast for a serviceman who came in for Rosh Hashanah meal or for a Passover meal or, in many cases, for a Sunday evening dinner, even though we served dinners at the YHMA every Sunday night.A.S.:
Mrs. Cook, we used to call her Ma Cook, Lawrence Cook's mother. Lawrence Cook
was the director of the YMHA before World War II. He was drafted and Al [Erlen 50:0000:50:09] was the director pro tem during Lawrence Cook's period in service. His mother was very active-M.K.:
You're speaking of Mrs. Morris Cook.
A.S.:
Mrs. Morris Cook, that's right and she was Ma Cook when she cooked on Sunday
nights. We used to serve our servicemen in shifts. There was no possibility of fitting in the number of servicemen who came to our breakfasts and to our dinners. Sadie Behr was very active in our breakfast program and helped prepare and serve many, many breakfasts at the old YMHA.A.S.:
Another program that we had that was certainly not something that was a rarity
was personal counseling. We had servicemen who first of all had never been out 51:00of the New York area. By the way, I think it's necessary to mention that World War II did more, first of all, for marrying off our Louisville girls probably than anything else that ever happened in the history of the state of Kentucky.A.S.:
Also, it did more to let the rest of the country know that we wore shoes, we
didn't walk around in sun bonnets, and all have little white picket fences. I remember when my sister became engaged to my brother-in-law, when my sister-in-law Lorraine became engaged to Sam [inaudible 00:51:40] and his mother wanted to send a diamond to be mounted for her engagement ring.A.S.:
Since he was in our maneuvers in [inaudible 00:51:54], Louisiana, he told his
mother to send the diamond here. His mother was shocked to hear that we had something called a jewelry store in Louisville, Kentucky, USA. She really did 52:00not imagine that the cowboys and Indians here had any use for jewelry stores.A.S.:
This became a tremendous shock to otherwise educated and informed New York and
New Jersey servicemen who came here. In many cases, it was a negative because they came here and never dreamed that anybody from Louisville would ever cross the state line and would ever get to New York. They told some of the most fabulous stories, most unbelievable fabrications because they never dreamed that we would ever know anybody in New York, certainly that we would ever have any communication with anybody in New York.A.S.:
This was the source of many broken hearts, by the way, in Louisville because
there were married servicemen who came here who had no idea that this country was so small that any girl in Louisville could ever learn that they were indeed married to someone in New York and they came here and carried on romances. If 53:00they couldn't be near the one they loved, they loved the one they were near.M.K.:
Well, sometime around this time, you too met your true love.
A.S.:
Yes, I too met my true love because he came to work at the Jewish Community...
Well, this was after the war. David came after World War II to work at the then YMHA and I think you might like to know that with a great deal of ambition and effort on my part, I was able all these many years later to work myself all the way up to the job that David had when I met him.A.S.:
He came to work at the YMHA after he went back to Indiana University after the
war ended and got his Master's and then came to work at the Louisville YMHA and our offices were right across the hall from each other. Cars were still a little hard to come by. They had just gone back on the market and I really think that was secret is having fallen in love with me, I had a car and he didn't. 54:00A.S.:
My office was right across the hall. He saved on transportation and we began
dating. I do have to tell you and I don't know if I want this to be permanent history or not, but it really did happen. [Renetta Mayer's 00:54:21] office, Renetta Mayer was what was called the girls' secretary then. I guess she was really a girls' secretary, I don't know what you'd call them now.A.S.:
But anyway, she was in charge of the female youth program when I was a child
growing up a the old YMHA. When she saw David and me out together once and she learned that we were dating, she told David that I was "a good catch" because I had a private income and David thinks that it's amazing that I've been able to keep this income so private 30 years later. It's still private, he doesn't know to what she was referring and I have to say, I didn't know either. But it was 55:00the secret of my success with David, I think.M.K.:
Then you were married when?
A.S.:
We were married many years later. We were not married until 1953. David had left
Louisville, had gone back to George Warren Brown School of Social Work in St. Louis and he didn't realize that even that wasn't an escape. Was not an escape because after all, I had family there and they kept tab on him and they had learned from our armed services program, they provided him with home hospitality and that sort of thing and then he came back here and visited and I went there and visited.A.S.:
We were married in 1953, six years after we had met. So, neither of us make fast
decisions. I really don't know whether this is a place to tell you but I have to tell you and give you an example of the kind of dedication that servicemen enjoyed from our local people. 56:00A.S.:
One of the things that we provided out at Fort Knox during the war were seders
for young men who could not come into town. Any boy who could come into town was certainly invited to a home but one year, we had big plans for the two seders to be held out at Fort Knox and the food was going to be prepared here in Louisville at the old YMHA.A.S.:
Someone got the brilliant idea that because transporting it was so difficult,
transporting it from Louisville to Fort Knox, somebody was able to get something made of metal which, by the way, during the war was a very difficult thing to come by. Metal was one of the war casualties. We got some galvanized garbage cans and the women made chicken soup and matzoh balls. Are you finished there? 57:00A.S.:
The women made chicken soup and matzoh balls and put them in these galvanized
garbage cans to be taken out to Fort Knox. Well, now having had that experience and being older and wiser, I realize it was not a smart idea to store the chicken...