Interview with Sam Klein, August 9, 1997

Dwayne Cox:

Advisor was the- also the university archivist. And so back at the time I was finishing my degree, he had a job in the archives and no one to fill it, and so he asked me to take the job in the university archives. And, so for about two and half years I've worked there.

Sam Klein:

Yes. I've instructed my secretary, no matter how busy I am, I don't care if it's a $10 million deal, if any of my family calls ... [inaudible 00:00:43] Not only just my wife. My children, my grandchildren.

D.C.:

Well, just for the record, this is an oral history interview with Mr. Sam Klein. Today's August 9th, 1977, and my name is Dwayne Cox. I'm from the University of Louisville. And this is one interview in a series of interviews that was begun 1:00in March of this year in cooperation between the University of Louisville archives, and the Jewish Community Federation. A cooperative effort to record an oral history, the oral autobiographies of some of the influential people in the Jewish community in Louisville.

D.C.:

Mr. Klein is a banker associated with the Bank of Louisville. He's a native of Louisville. Grew up here, went to school at Male High School. Attended the University of Louisville for a time, and has served on many civic boards, community service projects. And today I was hoping that we could talk some about 2:00his life. About his childhood, about his parents. About his earliest recollections of Louisville. About his work in the used car business and in the banking business in Louisville. And with the various civic organizations.

D.C.:

And like I said in my letter to you, I guess historians are sort of locked in to taking things in chronological order sometimes, and that has advantages and disadvantages, but a good place to start maybe is with your parents. Who they were, where they came from. Were they born in Louisville? What are your recollections of the neighborhood where you grew up?

S.K.:

Well, of course as you said I was born in Louisville. And my parents were not. I 3:00don't know that I recall where my father was born. I know my mother was born in Riga. R-I-G-A. I think that's the capital of Latvia. I think I was told when she was raised up there it was under the German jurisdiction. Sometimes Russia had it and sometimes Germany had it.

S.K.:

I think they came to the United States about 100 years ago. Somewhat [inaudible 00:03:52]. I was born at Eighth and St. Catherine, but I was told that when I 4:00was three months old we moved to the place that I first remember, and that was on First and Greene Street. Now, Greene Street now is called Liberty Street. My folks were very, very poor. They had one of those little small grocery stores. I mean, very small. If they'd take in $10 or $15 a day then they were doing pretty well. That sort of a situation.

S.K.:

We lived upstairs above the store. It was a very ... not only poor neighborhood, but probably one of the worst neighborhoods that the city of Louisville had. There were four saloons on the four corners at First and Greene. And a block 5:00away from that you had First and Jefferson, and then you had the Haymarket situation all around there. It was ... really a hodgepodge of people.

S.K.:

On the corner, on the southeast corner at that particular saloon ... The saloon was on the corner, and we lived next door to the saloon. And next door to that was some other sort of shop. Then there were some Italian people who lived next door. And there were some blacks next to them. And then there were Sicilians next to them, and there's be more blacks and some more Italians. I think there was one other Jewish family on the block that I recall. And then just more 6:00blacks, Italians, so on and so forth.

S.K.:

Across the street from where I lived, there was a Jewish family across there. And a dry goods store. [inaudible 00:06:24] One fella had a cleaning pressing place. And then they had some Italian people. Then they had the neighborhood house. And this was a playground subsidized by the city of Louisville [inaudible 00:06:49]. And some more Italians. Just the way the whole block was. And a drugstore on the corner of First and Walnut.

S.K.:

We lived there until I was about 10 years old, and then we moved on the same block across the street, up a little closer to Walnut Street, what we called Prospect Alley in those days. It was where the urban chorus would go through. The urban chorus which had their main station on Third Street, oh between Walnut and every ... pretty much where Stark's garage is right now.

S.K.:

And we had the same little grocery store right there. We lived upstairs above it. And then after about, maybe I was about 15 years old, we moved over to the house on Grey Street that my father had bought years ago, and rented it out to 8:00pay for itself. And it was divided up into four apartments, and we lived in one. The other three were leased out.

S.K.:

And in elementary school I went to Charles W. Morris School at Floyd and Chestnut. And from there of course we went to the local Male High School.

D.C.:

So you were born in 19-?

S.K.:

1906.

D.C.:

1906. And so you're talking about the neighborhood around First and what was then Greene Street.

S.K.:

First and Greene Street.

D.C.:

During the 19 teens.

S.K.:

Yes.

D.C.:

Was that a part of the-

S.K.:

It's almost up to the 20s now.

D.C.:

The 19 teens-

S.K.:

It's almost 20s now. Teens, yeah.

D.C.:

Was that ... I know that where the UofL Medical School is now, I think was 9:00around in that area was considered to be a Jewish neighborhood. Was the area where you lived ... It didn't sound like it. It sounded like it was a ... where you lived was a multi national sort of neighborhood.

S.K.:

The University was at First and Chestnut Street.

D.C.:

I mean where the new medical school is now.

S.K.:

The new medical school?

D.C.:

Right.

S.K.:

Well-

D.C.:

Down at Preston-

S.K.:

Right. Yeah. Now you're getting ... Don't forget in those days, you were on that block and that's about as far as you went. You didn't go four or five blocks away. Preston Street, yes. Preston Street was the Jewish center you might say. This is where the ... practically all the stores, practically all the Jewish people with the Jewish sections of course. On Preston Street. And that went all the way from ... I guess all the way from Market to Main. Close to Main, I 10:00guess. Market Street all the way on down the street to Broadway and Chestnut. They were ... You had ... [inaudible 00:10:26].

S.K.:

You had ... Yes, you had some Jewish families all in this Preston area right there, where the hospital was, of course. All around there on Chestnut Street. Along the street. But just for a few blocks. I mean, a few blocks east. Maybe towards Jackson. I think when you got past Jackson, you'd find general ... Back in those days, there wasn't that many. When you take in consideration that today 11:00there's probably 2,500 Jewish families in Louisville. That's all you had. 2,500. In those days, maybe ... well, if you had 600 or 700 families, 800 families, you had a whole lot. So you didn't have too much territory to cover.

S.K.:

Madison Street was, where the hospital is was practically all Jewish. Between Brook and Floyd. But then when you get past Floyd, well, then you start more non Jewish than Jewish. You see, you couldn't go very far away, because up to Preston, when you get to Preston you had some around there. But when you got to Jackson you didn't have anymore. You had some blacks around Jackson.

D.C.:

What do you remember about your childhood? Were your parents religious?

S.K.:

Oh yes.

D.C.:

Did you work in your father's store?

S.K.:

Oh yes.

D.C.:

Who came in the store? Was it a neighborhood store?

S.K.:

Yeah. It was a small store. Blacks and whites. Blacks and whites. Like I say, the whites were Italians, it was mostly foreigners. [inaudible 00:12:26]

D.C.:

Did you have any formal religious training as a youngster? Did you go to a-

S.K.:

I was confirmed. But that was it. Like all youngsters in those days.

D.C.:

You didn't go to a predecessor of what I guess today would be called the Hebrew School?

S.K.:

Taro. It wasn't the Hebrew School. The Hebrew School was on Walnut Street, 13:00between Brook and Floyd. Near Brook. It was Louisville Hebrew School. No, we went to a fellow who instructed the youngsters. And actually he was a kind of a fellow, I think the only one who could get you by by himself. I learned to read the Hebrew characters very well. He didn't teach us to read. I never did learn Hebrew because he never really taught us the translations like you would get if you went to Hebrew school. Now there, you would learn to talk, to understand Hebrew. So I never did gain that.

S.K.:

I knew very little Hebrew. Just the words you pick up. And I think the only one 14:00I know now is shalom. You know what it means, don't you?

D.C.:

Yeah.

S.K.:

You hear that all the time out in the world.

S.K.:

When I was a very very youngster I attended services with my father. Traditional services at the synagogue. When I was 15, not too far from where we lived on the next block. It was on First Street and Chestnut, but near Walnut. And about two or three doors from there, when I was a youngster, was the old YMHA building. Which later moved over to Second and Jacob.

D.C.:

Did you go to the YMHA?

S.K.:

Very rarely. I can't recall going to the one on First Street very well, because I was a youngster. I mean, very often. I'm sure I was in there. I don't recall anything about it. The First and Jacob, I went there, used to I think they all belonged to some group club. The youngsters. They would meet on Sunday or something. And then I became a member of it, because I know I used to always stop by when I got off of work and take my showers there. Got in the habit of always taking a shower there.

S.K.:

I didn't participate in any athletics there at all. The only athletics I 16:00participated at all was the Neighborhood House.

D.C.:

Can you talk about that? The Neighborhood House?

S.K.:

Oh sure. Oh, I used to live there. It was right across the street from where we lived, we living at First and Green. And then when we moved across the street we were just two or three doors away from it too. It was great. Had a playground that would close during the winter time. I think later on when I was getting away from it, I think the [Donettess 00:16:36] got a house next door and had something now where they have, I imagine they have something there now inside too. But at the time it was mostly a spring, summer, fall deal.

S.K.:

I could play every day. There was a nice little playground. Played everything possible for a child to play. Baseball, football, basketball. They had a nice 17:00gymnasium. They put a nice gymnasium. Volleyball, running, jumping, pole vaulting. Almost anything you could think of.

S.K.:

They did have some cultural projects from time to time. The gymnasium was sort of like an auditorium. They had a stage there. I imagine it's still there today, even after so many years. And so there were culture programs which they tried to do. It was organized very well. They had games to play, things to do. For certain age levels. I think it's probably a wonderful place for youngsters to grow up.

S.K.:

Unfortunately, a lot of the men, fellas that I played with didn't turn out so 18:00good. Even while they were at [inaudible 00:18:10]. Some would be arrested for stealing. Nothing like you have today. But once in a while you'd have an exceptional fella. A good many turned out the wrong way.

D.C.:

Were there any others who grew up to be the heads of banks?

S.K.:

Wait a minute now, by the same token some of them turned out to be great. I don't know if anyone else turned out to be the head of a bank. I know that some others have turned out to be great citizens. I think some of course have moved away to other cities. I just ... I just haven't had any contact. I don't know what happened to them. Some of them are still in Louisville, I used to see them on the street from time to time. Very rare. And I enjoyed seeing them. I'd go 19:00out of my way to try to find some of them, talk to them.

S.K.:

Is the Neighborhood House still there on First Street?

D.C.:

I'm not sure. This was the thing-

S.K.:

I know they have a Neighborhood House ... I know I sent congregations to a Neighborhood House, but I thought they were in the west end now on Bank Street or somewhere along there. I don't know where they still have ... Maybe they still have it there on First Street. I have to say this ... it gave the youngsters an opportunity, boys and girls ... It wasn't only boys, you understand. It was boys and girls. It gave the youngsters an opportunity to be occupied, to learn things. We did try to teach them [inaudible 00:19:53]. And I happened to turn out very successful. I can very well say because of the 20:00Neighborhood House I was successful, but it certainly helped. Because they tried to shape you. They tried to teach you the right thing to do. And I'd say that most of the youngsters were good there. It was a good deal.

S.K.:

Of course we always remember the people that went bad. Or the people that did extra good. I'm sure that 90% of them are good, average citizens and remain that way. First time I've ever been asked to talk about the Neighborhood House. Outside of just having wonderful times there and enjoying it. Of course then you get to be about 15, 16 years old, you break away from that.

D.C.:

Yeah. Did you get your first job about then? About the time you began to drift away from ...

S.K.:

Yeah. My first job was, I think I was about 14. I got a job with ... My father's 21:00cousin had a grocery store at Preston and Jefferson called the Klein Grocery. And at that time that was probably one of the biggest grocery stores. And I was going to high school, and what I would do, we'd go there in the evening from about six to nine or six to 10, and then on Saturday we'd work all day. Get there about seven in the morning to about 11 at night. And you'd get $10 a week for that, which was great, because you still go to school, you see. And I worked there for maybe perhaps about a year. A year or so.

S.K.:

And I was 16, I was ... And ...

S.K.:

I was around 16 years old or something around that time. And I was finishing Male High. And I graduated from Male in the last of January, January 1919. And I was 20 years old February the 6th. And I'd met Hattie a few months before that. And I was in love. 19 ... We'd been going together ... Did I skip a year? I graduated from Male when I was 17. I was 17, I was 16 ... I was 17 years old. 19 23:00... January 1923 I got my Charles W. Morris mixed up, sorry.

S.K.:

I was 16 years old in January when I graduated. And then I was 17, February the 6th 1923. And I'd met Hattie a few months before that. And ... So I wanted to go to go to work so I could make some money so we could get married, because she hadn't. And we got married in 1925. I remember 1925. I was 19 at the time. I was 20 of course the following February.

S.K.:

I did the usual things at Male High. Played some football. I pole vaulted on the track team. I did some odds and ends. Played some basketball. In those days you didn't have to be very big to play basketball. If you were a guard, as long as you didn't go passing it down the court you could stay there. Of course the scores would be 18 to 12, or 22 to 14. Didn't have all the basket throwing.

S.K.:

I think I went to work selling cars ... My brother had an automobile place on Third Street. And I was like a messenger. Go to the license bureau, go to the bank. Teach people how to drive.

D.C.:

Did people buy cars who didn't know how to drive?

S.K.:

In those days practically no one knew how to drive.

D.C.:

Yeah.

S.K.:

When I say no one, generally most of the men could drive. A good many men who would buy a car could drive. Some couldn't. But practically no women. And you had to teach the women. You'd have to ... You'd work so hard to try to sell a car in those days. You'd call on people, you'd call on them, and call on them, and call on them, and call on them. You'd go to their houses. You'd take them for rides on Sundays at night time. You'd teach them how to drive. And even then perhaps maybe they wouldn't buy a car. It isn't like you do today when you walk into a show room, you pick out a car, they say what color and what finish for the car? And bam. You'd walk out.

D.C.:

Why was it so much harder to ... People just didn't ... It wasn't considered a necessity?

S.K.:

Well, you see, here again as I told you about the number of people. We didn't have that many people. They didn't have the wherewithal to pay for it. The terms weren't as liberal as the are now. You got a car, you bought it in 12 months. You had 12 months to pay for it. You had to pay a down payment. A larger down payment. People weren't making very much. The people we sold these cars to, they worked hard. Now the women, most of the women did not work. But the husbands worked. So you didn't have the wife's income and the husband's income together that you have today. So those things all had some economical affect. They just didn't have it. You buy an automobile, you pay $10 a week on a new car. Which was a big payment. Maybe take the car ...

S.K.:

Before this time you had the Motel T Ford that sold for about $500. I recall even as late as 1935, new Chevrolet, $570 dollars. [inaudible 00:27:35] going up to ... 1928, 29, you had to sell probably 900 and something dollars for a brand new Buick. This gives you an idea of what the prices were. Cadillac, maybe $1,800, $2,000 in 29.

D.C.:

That's fascinating that difference in the car business that you had to solicit so hard to sell a car that you had to take people for drives on Sundays and teach them how to drive. Were there any other things that stand out in your 28:00mind, the differences between the car business in the 20s and when you finally got out of it?

S.K.:

Well, a new car, just to give you an idea, if the salesman could sell 50 cars a year, a car a week, he was a great salesman in town. And what would you make on it? You'd make $25, or $35 on commission. Maybe you'd make 50, 5% if the car sold for $1,000, you'd get $50. Now, that was top. You make $50 a week, you were great.

S.K.:

Of course the whole economy was geared different. A person making $50 a week, that was almost top pay. Those that made $75 or $100, they had to be a specialist of some kind to make that kind of money. It's very common for people 29:00to say, "Well, I'm going to leave my wife $100,000. She'll never have anything to worry about. She can invest the money at 6%." In those days everything was 6%. It wasn't 1%, 2%, everything was 6%. Everybody paid 6%. So you'd invest the money, get bonds at 6%, get $6,000 a year. She'd have nothing to worry about. She could have a maid, she could have a chauffer. It's true. When I was a youngster.

S.K.:

I'm going back in the 20s, 21s, 23s, 24s. And then of course we got into the recession there, started in 29. Real bad recession. And Hattie and went through some very hard times. My brothers fell to the wayside in 29. In their business. I couldn't get a job. I finally got a job at [inaudible 00:30:06] water company 30:00[inaudible 00:30:07]. Somebody I knew had some connections. And then in February of 1930 they made me manager of the used car department.

S.K.:

Now, that was the best paying job you could get at any automobile place. Now, I got $50 a week and 1% on all the used cars that were sold. Now, you really had to work hard. Now you're a used car manager in those days, I mean, you did everything. You took care of it. We had a lot on Third Street. We had to get the cars in. We had to appraise every car that come in.

S.K.:

Now, people wouldn't come to you. Instead they'd call you up and say, "I want you to go to 28th and [inaudible 00:30:48]. Talk to Mr. So and so. Be there at 11 o'clock to appraise his car." And you'd say, "I want you to be at 1:30 you've got to be at 1800 Sherwood Avenue to appraise the car, on Bonnie's Jaguar. On River Road, on Madison Street." And you'd just go around and do that, besides 31:00having to run your used car place. Get the cars in. See that they were reconditioned properly. Then work with the newspapers to get your advertising in, to run your ads on your cars and get it in the papers.

S.K.:

That was okay. That was a good job except they started going bad too. And the first thing you know I'm only getting $35. And then finally I was getting $25, and then $15. And then finally I was on straight commission. And then I took-

S.K.:

$40 to $50. Hattie and I lived on Newburg Road, up above a store. I think there was a flower shop there or some other kind of shops. We had an apartment there, and we paid $25 a month rent. When we were able to get to 25. And strange thing 32:00that I'm mentioning that now.

S.K.:

We were attending a wedding on St. Amos church this last week. And now summer's here, and Hattie and I were driving. We were driving by Newburg Road, and we had to slow up there for something. And I says, "Now that's where Hattie and I used to live." Just a block from Eastern Parkway there. And they still got some stores there. Hattie used to wash our clothes in the bathtub with an old fashioned scrub board like your grandmother or grandmother used to do. We couldn't afford a washing machine. She made her clothes and our little daughter's clothes. And fixed mine up. Took my collars when they were torn. Cut 33:00them off and turned them around, and doctored up my suits, where white threads could go through with some black ink. Just that usual thing.

S.K.:

We would go to ... Saturday was a big day for shopping, and we'd go to A&P on Saturday. And we would buy a little picnic hamp with cow's milk for abut 48 cents. And a pound of butter for a dime. Eggs were 10 cents a dozed. Coffee, we'd get three pounds of black coffee for 27 cents. Hattie and I stopped at Kroger's last night and got two pounds of some kind of coffee that [inaudible 00:33:47] type coffee. $9. So we got three pounds for 27 cents. And we even had baked ham on Sunday. And the next day we'd have a hock of ham with kale greens 34:00and cornbread and butter. Now, that was good eating. And it didn't cost anything. And then we'd have a ham salad.

S.K.:

And we'd have ... Right down the street on Fifth Street there used to be a cafeteria called S&M Cafeteria. All the cafeterias in town had 35 blue plate specials. Now, for 35 cent blue plate special, you could get a choice of meat, ham, beef, chicken, fish. Choice of vegetable. Roll, butter, and coffee, tea, or milk, 35 cents.

S.K.:

There used to be an afternoon newspaper here called The Post. You don't remember it?

D.C.:

I don't remember it, I've seen it though.

S.K.:

Okay. And The Post used to be an afternoon paper. There used to be ... The Courier was a morning paper, and the Herald was the morning paper. And the 35:00Courier and Times were together. But the Herald was a separate morning paper and The Post was a separate afternoon paper. Now The Post, they used to have an ad in The Post every week with a coupon. And say this coupon, for 35 cents you could get two dinners, blue plate specials, at the S&M Cafeteria on Fifth Street. Right across from the old house there. And we would take our little girl, and we'd get an extra plate and a glass of milk for her, and we'd get the two dinners, and we'd share our two dinners with her, and it cost 40 cents. It cost a nickel more for the milk. And the three of us would have our dinner for 40 cents.

D.C.:

40 cents.

S.K.:

And I think another interesting thing is on New Year's Eve, how we celebrated New Year's Eve in this apartment over there on Shager. Shager and Newport Road. First, I got hold of an old Bosch [inaudible 00:36:03] radio. Now in those days 36:00the outstanding radios were there Atwater Kent, the Bilco, and those kinds. Now, those were the radio, big radio suckers. Now, this Bosch needed some work and I monkeyed around with it and got it working. Now, it worked on an automobile storage battery. I was always able to get batteries because I worked on deal places.

S.K.:

And another thing too that I thought was nice, we always had the use of a car. Because I worked on the deal places. So on New Year's Eve, in those days, perhaps they do it now, at 11 o'clock, Central Time, which is 12 o'clock in New York City, and New Years Eve has started to celebrate there 11 o'clock our time. And you'd hear people at Times Square blowing horns, making noise. And then 37:00you'd have Paul Whiteman's Orchestra, and Vincent Lopez's Orchestra, and those types of orchestras back in those days. An hour later we would have the Central zone, and we'd have Koon Sanders out of Chicago, the Coleman Orchestra, someone down at the New Orleans [inaudible 00:37:20]. And so on and so forth.

S.K.:

So we'd go down to the bookstore and get a quart of vanilla ice cream for 15 cents. And we'd buy a jigsaw puzzle. And in those days jigsaw puzzles were the rage. And you'd buy a fairly nice size one for a nickel. And for a dime you got a pretty good one. But for 15 cents you'd have an enormous, just immense ... almost as large as this table.

S.K.:

Well, Hattie would make some hot fudge out of Hershey's coco, and we'd sit on the floor and turn that radio on. And we'd listen to that music. And we'd be working a jigsaw puzzle, eating our chocolate sundaes, the three of us, Hattie and I and our little girl. And no one could have more fun than us. That was 38:00great. And you know, a lot of people say, "Well, did you resent this?" Or, "Were you ambitious?" I said, "No." It never entered our mind except that the Lord put us on this Earth just to do what we were doing and we were contented. And we were contented. Hattie had a couple operations. We had hard times. But we were contented. We felt like this was our lot in life. And we never complained. We didn't see a reason to complain. Didn't know any better.

S.K.:

In May the 1st 1933, the [Deli 00:38:47] Motor Company, the company I worked for, went out of business. I went all over town, I couldn't find a job. Our folks didn't have any money, and we couldn't get any money, but we were able to 39:00get $25 here, and $50 here, and we got about $300 or $400 together. And we went in the used car business. At Brooke and Broadway. There was a building there and we had to pay $100 a month rent to get into the building on a month to month lease. And we paid $100 for insurance policy. And I bought the insurance policy in case I ran over something. Or some person or somebody. Or hurt someone. Because I didn't have anything. And some other odds and ends. We got hold of a bridge table with a broken leg and we wired that up, and a kitchen chair, and that was our office furniture.

S.K.:

Hattie and I and our little girl were there every day, every night, every Sunday. And when we sold a car and we'd make $50, well then we could use that money to buy another car. Or buy two cars. We didn't spend it. We still lived 40:00the same way. We still lived over the grocery store, and we still went to the S&M Cafeteria, and we still had our whatever we had. The same way. We didn't buy any clothes. We just [inaudible 00:40:18]. And we were still contented.

S.K.:

And then gradually we started doing a little better. I'll never forget, I used to say to someone, "I'll sign up to $20 a week the rest of my life if you'll guarantee to pay me that." And someone said to me, "Sam, you're off your head," this is true, "One of these days you're going to be worth $500." I just couldn't believe it. But then all of a sudden, well, we did start doing better. And we moved into a duplex on Lockey Avenue. And this time we paid $35 a month. And this is real living. This was a nice apartment, nice duplex. Nice little 41:00neighborhood. Dead end street so our little girl could play. And we started doing better. And better. And better. And better.

S.K.:

And then we still would put all our money back in cars. Now, this doesn't mean that we didn't buy some clothes every once in a while, because we could afford it at that time. Then we got this ... We had a building at Sax and Broadway we moved out of and went to right across from Sears Roebuck, there was a lot there. And we started to earn much better there. And then we became fairly well off for us. And we kept buying more and more cars. And I'd always buy cars in November, December, because this is when the dealers would be loaded up with cars, and 42:00they couldn't sell them and you could buy them very cheap. And I'd even go to Chicago, Indianapolis, and they'd love to get rid of them. You'd find in February you try to buy those same cars, you'd pay $100 more for them. And by the time March/April came around, you'd pay $200 or $300 more for them. In those days cars were low price. $200 or $300 on a car then was a lot of money.

S.K.:

So that worked real well for us all the time. The war was declared in December 41. And nothing was going for four or five months. The world was at a standstill. And then all of a sudden people realized that there weren't going to be anymore cars. New car factories were being turned into making cannons, planes, parts for things. So all the factories were making war material.

S.K.:

So we had an enormous amount of cars. Just very very lucky, just had an enormous amount of cars. And it was just a question of how much money we were going to make. I'd say from July 42 on I never made less than $10,000 a month for the rest of my life.

D.C.:

There's a little bit of astonishment in my face. From July 1942-

S.K.:

I never made less than $10,000 a month.

D.C.:

And you attribute that, at least partially that's because of the shortage of the-

S.K.:

Well, that too. But don't forget what I had didn't last. I had to keep buying cars. And as I told you before, I'm not an angel, but Hattie and I were thankful for what we had. And we never paid over ceiling for a car. You had ceilings. I never violated regulations. Never paid over ceiling, never sold one for over ceiling. And people would offer me all sorts of money, I would not do it.

D.C.:

Do you have a philosophy of business?

S.K.:

Well, partly what I just said right there. During the OPA, we never had any violations. We told the OPA people when I started, "Look if anyone comes in there, if they're not satisfied with anything that they bought from us, tell them to bring it back, we'll give them their money back." Because if they were just pills and you couldn't please them, well, you'd take that car and you'd sell it to somebody else. And if it was a lemon, I didn't want them to have it. I'd take it and take it out to auction and get rid of it.

S.K.:

When I was in the used car business, I don't know how it is now, but it was considered a very low, ugly type of business. People ridiculed the used car business. I guess they considered it about one grade above the pawnbroker, or the pawnbroker one grade above the used car dealer. I'm not sure which order it came. But strangely enough, I was never sued in my life and I never sued anybody 45:00else when I was in the used car business. No one ever sued me, I never sued anyone else.

D.C.:

You had satisfied customers.

S.K.:

I had satisfied customers. Repeat business always. And it wasn't difficult. I just don't understand why a lot of others ... We had enough of a volume that we could do that, but if I sold you a car and it was a real lemon, I wouldn't want you to have it. I'd think it out to the auction because some of those fellas didn't care what they did. I wouldn't knowingly buy one, but sometimes you couldn't help yourself. Or you'd take one in trade or something.

S.K.:

But if you were just a chronic complainer, and you would complain about this and we'd try to fix it up for you and fix it up for you, we might say, "Well, we can give you a different car or give you your money back." Because we'd sell it to somebody else, and the next person ... We used to watch that. The next person bought your car and they'd say it was the greatest car in the world. Never had a 46:00bit of trouble with it.

S.K.:

If there's any philosophy I guess that's it. We try to run the bank that way. We go out of our way to satisfy people. This is why we put our emphasis on people come first. And we really mean that. We've always been recognized as the little man's bank. You might be interested, and I'm surprised you haven't asked me yet, "How'd you get into the bank?"

D.C.:

Yeah. Go ahead.

S.K.:

Okay. We made a lot of money in the used car business. And we had an opportunity to buy some stock in the Royal Bank at Fourth and Market. Now, we had no idea of ever getting into the banking business. That never entered my mind. And by the way, at that time I had my brother with me as a partner.

D.C.:

Sure.

S.K.:

And we bought it for investment because we paid $390,000 for 44% lock in. Because it was a good investment. We were put on the board, of course, but we had no interest as far as running it or having ... Because other people were running it. We had an opportunity a few years after that to buy some more stock. One of the main officers sold his stock and got out of the bank. And he was out of the bank and he wanted to sell his stock through the brokers here. So we bought an additional 8% on the market. I don't remember what we paid for that, but I think we paid almost as much for that as we did the 44%, but here we owned 42% of stock of the Royal Bank.

S.K.:

Now, here again with the idea of not ... We still had the automobile business, 48:00which was very lucrative, with no idea of going in. See, we had a lot of places here. The place where you're sitting used to be a big used car lot. We always had pretty big places. One at Sears, one over here. We must've had, with my older brother, we must've had about 12 of them. And counting together, we were the largest in the United States. We were the biggest used car dealer in the United States. I don't think anybody was as large as we were, in one city. In one city. Some of them maybe had branches in cities or something like that. I think we were the largest.

S.K.:

So we had never dreamt about going into the bank, but as things progressed, I was talking about going into the bank. And I thought it ... I did, I fought it 49:00very vigorously, because I didn't want that responsibility. When I came back from, Hattie and I came back from a vacation in March of '56, my brother and my son-in-law said to me, "We've been thinking while you were gone, we think you ought to go into the bank." And I said, "Well, I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole." And they said, "Why?" And I said, "I don't want that aggravation." I says, "I'm 50 years old, I'm a millionaire. Why should I pull at it?" And they said, "Well, what do you think to do about the used car business?" We had started to re-trench a little bit. Cutting down some of our places. And I says, "Well, I think we ought to build up our finance company. No only to take our business, but to take a lot of other dealer's businesses."

S.K.:

And we were planning on that, but then everybody started talking to me and 50:00working on me, so in April I went over to the bank. And I went in as a Vice President, until the first year when we had our annual meeting and I went up to President. So a lot of people wondered how this used car guy does in the bank? What's he know about banking? And I can understand that. But all my life I was a nut when it come to figures. I love figures, and I love to study taxes. I know quite a bit about income taxes, inheritance taxes, estate taxes, all that. And the laws, the rules.

S.K.:

I used to love to look at a financial statement and try to tear it apart. I guess I still do that. At least sometimes when I turn a loan down, I think some of the people think I tore it apart too much.

S.K.:

But in the used car business, you often ask them why ... Everything that could 51:00happen to a consumer had happened in my experience. So I knew more about consumer law than almost anybody. Because that's all we ever did. It was all consumer law. In fact, lawyers used to call me up from time to time and say, "Rather than look up the law, would you tell me what happens?" And we would tell them.

S.K.:

So this was a natural for me because the bank predominately was a consumer credit bank. It was all little people, it was all financed automobiles, financed televisions ... I mean, not television sets. Appliance sets. Appliances, FHA loans. All monthly payment type deals. Which was right up our alley. So that worked out fine for me.

S.K.:

Of course, once I got in there as president in January 1957, I started putting the emphasis on commercial banking. Don't get me wrong now, we still do a good amount of consumer credit, but we also do the bulk, we do commercial ... like 52:00all the banks do today. Our ratio might be a little higher than theirs, because they're starting on one end and we're starting on the other.

S.K.:

It was difficult. If I could've taken the bank ... If I could just start a new bank then I could've done a lot better. I had a difficult time. The Royal Bank didn't have the reputation that it should've had, and it took a lot to overcome that stigma, if you want to call it that. Of being more like a high class loan company or joint or something like that. But I'm happy to say that we did develop, because the first day I stepped in I got everybody together and I said, "As long as I'm behind this desk, we're going to do everything we were supposed 53:00to do, we're going to treat everybody nice. We're going to be friendly, and we're going to take care of people, and see that everybody gets a fair deal. And if anybody doesn't do that, out they go."

S.K.:

And we had some good men on our board of directors. Milton [Cholis 00:53:21] and Watson Dabney, people like that. And that's what they wanted too, so I didn't have any problem there. So we had a nice group, a nice relationship. And we grew. We grew rather rapidly after a hard time. In fact I was president a few months ... In those days, the FDIC insured your deposits up to $10,000. Now it's up to $40,000. And the banks in town only paid on savings accounts, paid one percent on savings, up to $2,500. Anything over that they did not pay you any 54:00interest. So if you had $10,000 in a savings account, you got one quarter of one percent. And the big companies, they didn't worry with that at all. It was too small.

S.K.:

So I sent our two vice presidents John Speaker and Ed Sturgeon around to all the big companies in town saying, well, look, we have three branches and we're a little man's bank. We take care of your customers. We try to service them. We make loans to them so they can have things. Good things. And we'd like a courtesy account of $10,000 which will be insured by the FDIC. All over the city, all the big companies. You know how much money we got? Zero. Not 10 cents. Zero. So you see, we really had to lift ourselves up by our bootstraps. That's what we did. That's what we did.

D.C.:

And you did that ... how did you do that? Through-

S.K.:

Just by working hard. Working hard. And just keep trying to get more deposits. 55:00Some friends. Some organizations.

D.C.:

How much time do you have?

S.K.:

Shelia's going to pick me up in 10 minutes, about 15 minutes.

D.C.:

Okay. You talked before we started to record, you talked some about the, I guess you could say the different elements in the Jewish community in Louisville. About how you felt like although you had served with many Jewish agencies, you felt like you could better serve they my serving with other civic groups, non Jewish groups, as a sort of representative, if you will.

S.K.:

Yes.

D.C.:

Can you talk some about that?

S.K.:

Yeah, I think that's pretty much ... I think you're referring to what I said 56:00that I had originally started by being involved with mostly Jewish activities. In our church, for example, Temple Adath Israel. I was part of the men's club in 1945. Then a few years later I went on the board of trustees, then I became secretary for three years, then vice president for years, then I became president in 1945. I was president in 45 and 46. I was president when Doctor [Rowe 00:56:36] died. I don't know if you've ever heard of Doctor Rowe. Probably one of the most beloved me we ever had. And one of my very dearest friends. He died in February of 56. And that was a terrible blow for me.

S.K.:

No, he didn't die in 56. I take that back. He died in 57. He died in 57, because I'll never forget when I was to be president of the bank, before the annual meeting, I called him up, I said, "Doctor Rowe," I said, "I'd like to see your ... " I'm digressing from what you asked me. He said, "Well, can you come over to my study about four o'clock?" And I did. And I said, "Tomorrow I'm to be president of the bank of Louisville, and I wonder if you wouldn't say a prayer for me?" And he took me in the sanctuary, and he blessed me. He died a month and a half after that. It was a terrible shock.

S.K.:

And I worked there. I was on the YMHA board back in the old days, and even at the Jewish Community Center for a while. Won nine church campaigns. Quite a few 58:00Jewish activities. I found myself being asked more and more to ... I was invited to be on more civic groups, and I felt like after studying for a while that I could contribute a lot more to my cohorts or my fellow revisionists by helping out on some of the boards where they didn't have the Jewish representation.

D.C.:

Right.

S.K.:

It seemed like that the United Jewish Campaign, the Jewish Community Center, these temples and all, they already had good Jewish people working there. Men and women. So as long as they had good hardworking outstanding Jewish leaders, they didn't need me. And I felt like I could perhaps maybe get more exposure by 59:00putting some emphasis on organizations where they perhaps were not represented by Jewish persons. So this is what I was trying to bring up before.

S.K.:

Now this doesn't mean ... Now, most of the organizations that I'm on do have some Jewish members. Like the Goodwill Industries or the Salvation Army and all the other things. I'm on various boards, too numerous to mention at this time.

D.C.:

Maybe one final question before you go to lunch. Maybe this might be an unfair question, but it seems like to me that it would be an accurate characterization to say that you were a poor boy who never forgot your origins. You made a financial success out of yourself, and you're now an influential member of the community. And I guess my question is, you've been involved in downtown 60:00development community affairs ... I guess my question is finally, who runs Louisville? As far as people like yourself who pull themselves up by their bootstraps, you might say or the families who've been around for a while?

S.K.:

Actually, your question is maybe two or three fold there. I'd say that if you asked me, I think ... Or you indicated I appear to be the same now as if I would've been years ago, and that's true. I never have changed. In other words, I'm never ashamed to be the someone that I was with years ago. In fact, I welcome him. I love to see him. I'll go out of my way to try to get in touch with him. No, I've never changed. I've never felt like I was any different, any 61:00better now than I was then, because I'm not. I'm not. I feel the same. I've been lucky. We've been lucky. After a lot of hard times.

S.K.:

I try to ... As you know I'm on University of Louisville board, I'm on Bellarmine College board. I'm certainly not Catholic. Yes? To pass some time, I'm general chairman of the campaign for the Ursuline Sisters. For their new structure out there. You probably didn't know that. I'm on the advisory committee of the campaign for the Baptist Seminary and their new drive. I'm on ... It does not make any difference to me who they are or what they are. Any religion they are, whether they're black, whether they're white. I've been on secret boards to help minorities, especially for black people in western 62:00communities. And we try to help. This has been my philosophy in life.

S.K.:

Now, getting back to who runs Louisville, it's a different thing entirely. I say this with no bitterness, I say this not to hurt anybody, but I think Louisville is being run by Courier Journal and the Times. And everything's very different, and [inaudible 01:02:41] Bank. Now I'd say probably First National [inaudible 01:02:53]. A citizen's bank for years and years.

S.K.:

I think the Maury Johnson's been a very dominant force in the past seven or eight years. You do have to be ... You normally are a nominated force, so I guess you have to include the mayor. However, I think his wife Kathy, and [inaudible 01:03:23] Bingham have participated quite a bit in civic affairs. Now you're talking about leaders and dominating people now. [inaudible 01:03:38] is what I'm trying to bring out. This doesn't mean that they're doing anything that they shouldn't be doing. Okay?

S.K.:

The usual group. You want name calling? Arden Davidson, [inaudible 01:03:57]. Patson [Runnert 01:04:06] Louisville Gas and Electric Company, although he has 64:00kind of stayed out of things for the past few years. I would say the normal thing that you referred to, and we always used to refer to, there's a River Road crowd. So many of us live around that lane, so you can't [inaudible 01:04:24] anymore. So many people leaving. Now, these people are outstanding leaders and they deserve to be here. Be leaders. Sometimes their decisions may not be what we might want them to be, but still. They're good leaders. Whatever they do they try to do, in their opinion, they try to do what they think is best for the community. I hope they just going to get the situation ... What I think best is always good. What do they say? What General Motors wants is good for the nation 65:00or something like that? I hope they don't get that attitude. So far I think they haven't reached that. And they are a good group of people.

S.K.:

And I would imagine ... Al [Sheeder 01:05:15] is a tremendous man here in Louisville. But most of the things he's done are terrible [inaudible 01:05:25]. And this is one of the differences, I think. Because I referred to ... See, it's like when someone else wants something [inaudible 01:05:35], like the Hyatt House, or the Selbach Hotel, Morty Johnson and the mayor and all that group. And the Louisville central area and the ... And I'm on their boards, I'm on all these boards now. And I tell them that. They're not raising a penny for them. Lend them all the money, arrange the money, any time Al Sheeder wants something, he doesn't ask for any money. But they try like the devil to keep him from doing it. They did that for the Galt House they've done that for the Sixth and Main 66:00deal. They've done it with ... In fact, every time you want ...

S.K.:

What he's trying to do right now, they've been delaying and delaying and making it very difficult for him instead of going out and trying to help him and encourage him, because it is good for the community. But they'll come in with arguments where they say it's not good for the community. Like I say, the have their opinions. So you say who are the leaders? I think probably Al Sheeder's done more for this community than any one person since [inaudible 01:06:29].

S.K.:

Those national newspapers have media.

D.C.:

Well, I've certainly enjoyed talking to you.

S.K.:

I enjoyed talking to you.

D.C.:

I don't want to keep you from your lunch.

S.K.:

Well, if there's anything you ... listen buddy, I think if you want to ... If you think of something-