Interview with Roy Diamond and Mrs. Roy Diamond, August 16, 1978

Ken Chumbley:

Testing, test ... This is Ken Chumbley at the University of Louisville archives. The date is August the 16th. I'm interviewing Dr. and Mrs. Diamond today as part of the Jewish oral history project. And we'll begin with you Dr. Diamond. If you will, just tell me a little about where you were born. Your parents.

Roy Diamond:

I'm Dr. Roy Diamond, to distinguish from other Diamonds that might be around. I was born in Louisville, Kentucky, November the 2nd, 1895. So that's that.

Mrs. Diamond:

What street? What area? They want to know the areas.

R.D.:

Well, at that time, the more or less Jewish district, people had just come from 1:00Russia or Latvia and Lithuania. There was quite a group that had moved into that area on Preston between Jefferson and Madison. Also, there were some, there was a group of- sequestered around the area between Floyd and Preston.

K.C.:

Mm-hmm [affirmative]. And what did your parents do?

R.D.:

Well, my parents had originally come from ... They came over about the 1888, or thereabouts. My father became a citizen in 1894. And I was born in 1895. November. And-

Mrs. Diamond:

What about your mother?

R.D.:

My mother came over from Lithuania. I imagine my parents lived in that area. She- they were- my mother was a very religious Jewish woman, and my father was not so religious, but she had control of my family in her religious attitudes. I might also add she was the brains of the family. But anyway-

Mrs. Diamond:

Very highly trained dress maker.

R.D.:

Well, she knew how to ... Yeah, she was-

Mrs. Diamond:

In fact she had an establishment. She had people working under her-

R.D.:

She was in charge. [crosstalk 00:02:37] In those days, people wanted to ... She had come from New York. In those days when wealthy people had a wedding, they would have the seamstress come in and live with them while all the dresses were made and so on and so on and so on.

Mrs. Diamond:

Live with the [crosstalk 00:02:53]-

R.D.:

Anyway, was in their home, married [crosstalk 00:02:54]-

Mrs. Diamond:

In New York.

R.D.:

About the year 1893. Something like that.

Mrs. Diamond:

You want to say how she came to Louisville?

R.D.:

Then-

Mrs. Diamond:

Because her cousins the Cohens. That would be Abel Cohen or-

K.C.:

She had Louisville connections already?

Mrs. Diamond:

Yes. They were-

R.D.:

There were. There were some people that also come from Lithuania and Latvia. They were very closely allied. There must've been some relationship, of which I've never been entirely certain. But they were very close-

Mrs. Diamond:

You can be certain. It was ...

R.D.:

And, well, after that, personally I started school ... A simple viewpoint of the religion. My mother wanted me to learn Hebrew before I learned English. I'll add this that my folks talked Yiddish to me all the time. I always ... We spoke, I have two sisters, we spoke back to them in English. So it was a two way affair.

R.D.:

So I started school then when I was about, maybe almost a year ahead ... I 4:00should've started, let's say, at six. I started at seven. Regular day school. And from then on I went through what used to be Floyd [Schestlein 00:04:14] school. Just [inaudible 00:04:16]-

Mrs. Diamond:

George Morris.

R.D.:

Later on they named it George Morris school.

K.C.:

Did you go to Hebrew school? Or did you study Hebrew at home?

R.D.:

I went to an old fashioned Hebrew school, which amounted to a local tutor, as it were.

Mrs. Diamond:

Maybe it was.

R.D.:

Who had a number of us Jewish boys learning Hebrew. The methods of teaching were highly antiquated.

K.C.:

What do you mean? Did he hit you or something?

R.D.:

Oh yeah. He'd hit you-

Mrs. Diamond:

Ah. You can tell his grandchildren aren't here-

R.D.:

They'd give you a wallop if you happened to miss out on something-

Mrs. Diamond:

You can't mention it now. He has very important grandchildren-

R.D.:

Anyway-

Mrs. Diamond:

Attorneys.

R.D.:

But that was the beginning of life, going to grade school. Now, the question of 5:00others who may have come over at that period in our family, I have an uncle who came over about the year 1900.

Mrs. Diamond:

Your mother's brother. Harvey.

R.D.:

My mother's brother. Who was more of the intellectual group that had just come over from Europe. He had what you'd consider high school training, which my folks never had.

Mrs. Diamond:

Harvey, at age seven, he knew so much that they could no longer teach him in the small town. They sent him to Vilna to educate him at age seven.

R.D.:

He was a bright fellow.

K.C.:

He was from Lithuania also?

R.D.:

He was from Lithuania.

K.C.:

Okay.

Mrs. Diamond:

He's the father of Bernard Gabriel, who's on national ... Bernard Gabriel's use the music scene. Well, they want to know things like this.

K.C.:

Okay.

R.D.:

All right.

Mrs. Diamond:

It's what they want to know.

R.D.:

He has a son who's been-

Mrs. Diamond:

New York City.

R.D.:

Quite a musician and so on. But that's the beside the point why he got to Louisville. Because he lives in New York now. So we ...

Mrs. Diamond:

How many years was your father a baker here?

R.D.:

When I was a very small child, we went to the so called show at the synagogue, on Jefferson between Preston and Jackson, there was when we'd go to synagogues. Which, as I think on it now, was a perfectly beautiful fire trap. But, fortunately, when the big holidays came on and the place was jammed, no fire ever started. Otherwise it would've been awful.

R.D.:

But anyhow, we went there through my childhood. Personally, I don't know whether you want to follow me through any much further, but I'll give a quick resume. I went to grade school here, then I went to Mandatory High School. Graduated in 7:001915. Then I went to University of Kentucky, and I studied engineering. And then worked at engineering for about three years in various parts of the country, including Iowa, Detroit, New York, down at Frankfort, Kentucky.

R.D.:

And when I was in New York it occurred to me that I had saved up a few nickles and dimes. I was studying medicine, which I had wanted to do originally, but I had no funds. Then I started New York University Medical School. And I wound up ... My second year I came to the University of Louisville to be able to eat and have a place to sleep, because my folks lived here. And since then I've been in Louisville. I, for the rest of my career, I ... Regular medical school of 8:00Louisville. And then I had an internship in Cleveland at Mt. Sinai Hospital.

R.D.:

And then at that time, after finishing my internship, I got some sort of a medical job in the mining country of West Virginia, and I was there up till about 1929. This was only about a year, after all. And then I came to Louisville and started a practice in the depth of the Depression. And always wondered how we would get enough to eat our next meal.

Mrs. Diamond:

[inaudible 00:08:43]

R.D.:

But that was it. And our two children were born-

Mrs. Diamond:

Wait. We married in 1930.

R.D.:

We married in 1930-

Mrs. Diamond:

We should put that in. We met and married.

R.D.:

And my ... In 1932 whem my son was born...at that time I say I wondered how I 9:00would ever be able to afford saving high school. But things gradually improved, and that boy now is an ophthalmologist in Washington D.C.-

Mrs. Diamond:

Bethesda, Maryland, and Rockland.

R.D.:

Just outside of Washington D.C.. My daughter, who is six years younger than my son, she was born in 38, she's in Houston, Texas-

Mrs. Diamond:

Married.

R.D.:

And she has ... She has her masters in audiology and ...

Mrs. Diamond:

Speech Therapy. And has national certifications.

R.D.:

All right. Speech Therapy. So-

Mrs. Diamond:

Wait a minute. She's now an instructor.

R.D.:

She what?

Mrs. Diamond:

She's instructing at the University of Houston.

R.D.:

She's an instructor at the University of Houston.

Mrs. Diamond:

And we're very proud of her.

R.D.:

Oh yes.

K.C.:

Just to backtrack a minute or two, when you were growing up, did your parents 10:00emphasize your being a Jew? And did they ... Evidently your mother, you said she was very religious-

R.D.:

Very much so. Very much so. As a matter of fact, I'll add this, that up to the time I went to college, I was ... Things were beginning to turn in my mind, but I still had the religious attitude. My first year in college I tried to stand by the dietary rules-

Mrs. Diamond:

They sent you food and everything.

R.D.:

Yeah. They actually sent me food from home so I wouldn't have to overstep the dietary laws-

Mrs. Diamond:

He couldn't play baseball on Saturday.

R.D.:

But I'm sorry to say I've become more or less away from that attitude, and ...

Mrs. Diamond:

You're a lost duck.

R.D.:

I must add ... I must add, I'll say that instead of being religious, I am an 11:00agnostic. That's basically ... So that's my story. I'm now 82 and a half years old-

K.C.:

And still practicing medicine.

R.D.:

Still practicing medicine.

K.C.:

A general practitioner?

R.D.:

General practitioner [crosstalk 00:11:17]. Today I saw about 10 patients. Only two hours a day in the morning, 10 to 12. Yesterday I saw about 15. So that varies but I still-

Mrs. Diamond:

All the school kids after ball come into him because he treats them very kindly.

R.D.:

So that's the situation.

Mrs. Diamond:

All the kids want to get his hand.

K.C.:

Among other Jews you knew growing up, did their parents emphasize Judaism? Emphasize the training?

R.D.:

Yes. Most of the people we knew did.

K.C.:

Now were these reformed or Orthodox?

R.D.:

Definitely Orthodox.

K.C.:

Okay.

R.D.:

The reformed came later on. My wife got into the reformed-

Mrs. Diamond:

No I did not. I was conservative.

R.D.:

But anyway. About this religious thing, yes, we were all quite a religious group. And we accepted it at face value. That was it. I ... Well, that was the situation.

K.C.:

But you didn't feel as if there were any pressure on you to become an American? To renounce your Judaism or anything like that?

R.D.:

No, never-

Mrs. Diamond:

He doesn't have to do that.

K.C.:

Okay.

R.D.:

But I want to speak frankly getting it on record, that we felt our anti-Semitic attitude. Any Jewish boy who had any brains at all brains at all could feel it very quickly. But we tried to get around it in our own way, face the issue and be-

Mrs. Diamond:

Your close friend Fritz [Demayo 00:12:56] was a famous scientist was certainly not Jewish. No way.

R.D.:

Anyway. The boys that I grew up with, some of them became fairly important. Some 13:00of them I believe are in prison yet.

Mrs. Diamond:

So this is an awfully tough crowd. It was a terribly tough crowd in the earlier days when he was five or six-

R.D.:

No, that's not in our group. The ones we ... I'll say this much, we went to Hebrew school, which was, as I said, one tutor along with about 20 or 30 boys learning Hebrew. Very poor training. Nevertheless we had to learn something.

Mrs. Diamond:

You had a bar mitzvah, you had to learn.

R.D.:

And it was the roughest, toughest crowd of kids I ever lived with. My folks always kept me under cover. My mother especially. I had to do the right thing or else.

Mrs. Diamond:

Your mother was marvelous. Your father too.

K.C.:

Your father was a baker?

R.D.:

My father was a baker-

Mrs. Diamond:

One of the early bakers. Before Mathers and [Biglers 00:13:55] were here.

R.D.:

Wait. My father originally came to Cincinnati from-

Mrs. Diamond:

From Finland.

R.D.:

Well, he was all through Europe. He was all through-

Mrs. Diamond:

They want to know things like that.

R.D.:

Well, he's not interested in my-

Mrs. Diamond:

They want to know the back-

K.C.:

Well, I am curious about your father-

Mrs. Diamond:

They want to know.

R.D.:

When he was a kid about 12 years old, he did the usual thing that many boys did who didn't have great training in anything. Ran away from home. And he worked with a group of about 10 or 12 roofers. They'd go from town to tow. In those days you didn't have shingles, you made them.

Mrs. Diamond:

From country to country.

R.D.:

And they'd go from town to town throughout the Baltic area. In fact, he was all the way from Lithuania to Finland. He used to talk about the college in Helsinki. Student body. He was almost proud to tell me about them. Anyway, that was [inaudible 00:14:59]. Finally, they decided in Russia that ... I don't know 15:00if you know or not, but everyone was drawn in the army. Well, they knew how the Jews were going to be treated there, and many of them got out as fast as they got in. Went through the agent, having been in the army. Well, he did that. He left. It was a matter of bribe to the people at the barber, and they'd put you in a wagon he said, the group would get in the wagon and take it over the border into Germany. And there that fellow would drive the people on the other side through that [inaudible 00:15:45].

R.D.:

And so he came over and landed in Baltimore. Went to Cincinnati, where the leader of the Diamond clan became rather prominent in Cincinnati-

Mrs. Diamond:

And uncle.

R.D.:

His uncle, he came to him first. Finally knowing he had to make his own way, he 16:00finally did come to Louisville as any old thing. He had to start out as a butcher, really. For a short while. But he knew something about the bakery, and he got tied up in the bakery game. And he stayed with that most of his life.

K.C.:

And your mother was a dressmaker you said?

R.D.:

Mother was a dressmaker-

Mrs. Diamond:

Well, just until she married.

K.C.:

Just until-

R.D.:

She took part of the business of the bakery business. Worked with it for many years.

K.C.:

Where was the bakery located?

R.D.:

The bakery was on Jefferson Street, between Jackson and Preston. Preston and Jackson, yes.

K.C.:

It was his own bakery? Eventually he owned his own bakery?

R.D.:

That's right.

Mrs. Diamond:

The [Fleigels 00:16:47] came in and the Lakers came in. He had to compete with them.

R.D.:

He had two other bakers associated with him, but they were not Jewish.

Mrs. Diamond:

He was a wonderful old man.

R.D.:

Well, [inaudible 00:16:56].

Mrs. Diamond:

No-

R.D.:

[Canora 00:16:56].

Mrs. Diamond:

Canora. That's Father Canora's-

R.D.:

I might say this much about [inaudible 00:17:05], oldest in the family. He was with us about 20 years almost-

Mrs. Diamond:

I didn't know he was a priest.

R.D.:

He had had a pretty good training in Germany. He got his job for $18 a week and he worked hard. That was good money in those days. For my father. And I listened to him a great deal, because he was a learned man. Just an average man on the outside world, to learn from the outside world more or less. I'd converse with this baker, he could tell me a lot more than my own father would. Because he was busy with his bakery. My own mother with her religious attitude.

K.C.:

Did they get along? Your parents? Did your father ... Did her religious ...

R.D.:

There was always controversy.

K.C.:

Yeah.

R.D.:

Not that he was irreligious, but-

K.C.:

But did it kind of grate on him some?

Mrs. Diamond:

It was keyed on Saturday-

R.D.:

[inaudible 00:17:57] He was a lover of horses. I don't mean horses in the sense 18:00that you-

Mrs. Diamond:

Racing-

R.D.:

Bet on. But he had horses.

Mrs. Diamond:

Trotting horses.

R.D.:

And he would have ... Trotting horses was his thing. And he actually had a horse or two that was taken out, that he took out to the Fern Creek Fair. And he once made about $100. He won a prize of $40. But that's ... He got a lot of pleasure out of that. In fact, we went with him sometimes to watch him run, and we could hear remarks like, "Better watch out for that Jew's horse. He's going to win this thing." And we could hear that [inaudible 00:18:43]

K.C.:

You mentioned too that as a little boy that you knew that there was anti-Semitism.

R.D.:

Oh, yes.

K.C.:

And I know little boys can be mean. What ... Did you get it only from the little boys or did you get it from adults too?

Mrs. Diamond:

Grade school.

R.D.:

We ... At grade school we didn't pay any attention to it. It was in high school 19:00it really became noticeable. I had some ability to write, so my stories were put into the school booklet that came out every month. And so they put me onto the staff. To get an idea of the anti-Semitism there, when a picture was taken to put on for the-

Mrs. Diamond:

Group.

R.D.:

End of the year, the group picture of those who were on the staff, they didn't tell me about it, and they left me out.

Mrs. Diamond:

Well, no Jewish person belonged to [inaudible 00:19:37] later.

R.D.:

I found out later the name of the principal who caused that, the principal of the boys, I invited him outside for a fist fight. And he acted huff and puff and didn't come out. But anyway, that's how it was.

Mrs. Diamond:

May I add just this? Doctor still has an uncle. He father's brother is still alive in Louisville, but he's so deaf ...

R.D.:

He's about 90 years old-

Mrs. Diamond:

Yeah. Uncle Wolf Diamond.

K.C.:

I know of him. Yeah.

Mrs. Diamond:

He couldn't ... he's so deaf. Now, his wife was a Marx from the Marx family. That Harvey Marx's aunt. And they were all auctioneers too. [inaudible 00:20:13]

R.D.:

Well-

Mrs. Diamond:

Wait a minute. But she might be able to talk to you. She has some [inaudible 00:20:23] there, but she can probably tell you a lot of interesting things.

R.D.:

But I want to talk some more about the anti-Semitism.

K.C.:

Yeah.

R.D.:

The anti-Semitism made me a very staunch Zionist. Because I had the feeling that there should be some one place in the world where a Jew can go and say, "I'm a Jew. Here I belong. We've got our past history here." So I'm very much for that. I give a lot of money for that.

K.C.:

You got to college, you went first to the University of Kentucky. Did you find much anti-Semitism at the University of Kentucky? And then particularly later at U of L's med school?

R.D.:

At University of Kentucky there was no outright anti-Semitism, no. But we felt 21:00that because we...after all the college boy fraternities have some meaning. [crosstalk 00:21:12] We the Jews were sequestered. They had to have their own fraternity. S-A-M.

Mrs. Diamond:

Then after he left, and I think he was only here for four years, Doctor entered medical school at-

K.C.:

New York.

Mrs. Diamond:

New York University.

K.C.:

Right.

Mrs. Diamond:

And he'll tell you about that, too. They'd send most of the Jewish boys ... Tell him about that.

R.D.:

Well, [crosstalk 00:21:30]. In New York I noticed it quite a bit too.

Mrs. Diamond:

And so as an engineer he couldn't get a position later. He went to about 200 engineering buildings. And if they asked his religious affiliation he walked out because he knew what it meant. Then he went into medicine at age 28.

R.D.:

That was a problem. We have to deal with it. You're not a Jew, so you can never comprehend what that means. I talk to one of my doctor, one of my professor friends, I don't know whether you know-

Mrs. Diamond:

Doctor Ernest [Baumer 00:22:02].

R.D.:

Ernest is one, but I'm talking about ...

Mrs. Diamond:

Simon-

R.D.:

Spikes, Samuel Spikes.

Mrs. Diamond:

From Speed.

R.D.:

[crosstalk 00:22:10] He was, he had an engineering ... not engineering, electrical division of the-

Mrs. Diamond:

Under doctor-

R.D.:

School-

Mrs. Diamond:

Under [crosstalk 00:22:13]-

R.D.:

He's now retired. But he's also ... He happened to be very much interested ... I don't know whether you want to take this on record or not-

Mrs. Diamond:

Why not?

R.D.:

He's also very much interested in that and the state of Israel. Why? Because anything that'll hold the Russians out of the oil. And the Russians don't like his role, but he doesn't care about it. But he also has a nice attitude.

K.C.:

And once you came to U of L, to the medical school, did you find much anti-Semitism there at the school later in the profession? Because there weren't many Jews going to medical school.

R.D.:

It was not ... It was not outright anti-Semitism. We got along pretty well with the boys. We knew it was there, but was not even pardoned after all. As a matter 23:00of fact, Jews become inured to that sort of thing, and don't let it get them down too much after a while.

Mrs. Diamond:

Now, he grew up in Morris School, where there were many many of the prominent children, children of prominent families, non Jewish when he was there.

K.C.:

I understand they oftentimes served kosher lunches there too.

Mrs. Diamond:

Not in his day.

R.D.:

What now?

K.C.:

Later though. Later.

Mrs. Diamond:

Later? In our school? Yes. But when he went, in 1900, he was five, six years old-

R.D.:

Oh yeah, we weren't-

Mrs. Diamond:

It was all the old families that were still living around Gray Street and all the common non Jewish families. And he encountered some trouble there.

K.C.:

Was it a kind of insular community? You have I guess two groups of Jews. Orthodox and Reform. Was there any mixing?

Mrs. Diamond:

[crosstalk 00:23:53] conservative.

K.C.:

And conservative?

R.D.:

Conservative was neither here nor there, they're-

Mrs. Diamond:

Oh now, don't say that. My mother's home was as observant-

R.D.:

In other words, her mother was religious to a great degree-

Mrs. Diamond:

Just as much as your mother, but she was more-

R.D.:

Her father was born here, so she had more of-

Mrs. Diamond:

That didn't have anything to do with it-

R.D.:

Was more adjusted to America. Anyway.

Mrs. Diamond:

She was just as observant as your mother, but she ... The men, she was conservative, the men and women sat together in the synagogue.

K.C.:

But was there any kind of mixing between the three or two communities? [crosstalk 00:24:25] Yeah, were the divisions clearly drawn?

R.D.:

It was very limited at that time. It gradually broke down. But at time the-

Mrs. Diamond:

The Orthodox-

R.D.:

[crosstalk 00:24:33] Germany earlier. Maybe 20 years earlier. But [inaudible 00:24:38] probably came about 20 years later.

Mrs. Diamond:

And the Spanish looked down on the German. It was common.

R.D.:

Yeah, so it was.

Mrs. Diamond:

Ridiculous.

R.D.:

But I say over the years, I guess there's been so much inter-

Mrs. Diamond:

Intermarriage.

R.D.:

Intermarriage between all the groups now that ... After all, the girls are the more or less cultured element had to get married. And the boys of my group-

Mrs. Diamond:

I object to your saying that Dr. Diamond. And you'll object too to it.

R.D.:

If you want call it. At least the element that came earlier-

Mrs. Diamond:

They orthodox-

R.D.:

They did have a more-

Mrs. Diamond:

Conservatives are just as cultured. Just as refined-

R.D.:

They had a more Americanized viewpoint, let's put it that way. And they ... But those girls had to get married, they didn't have enough boys. So they married our boys, who were pretty bright boys, many of them-

Mrs. Diamond:

Most of the doctors in town all come from the Russian Eastern-

R.D.:

So most of them were-

Mrs. Diamond:

European. Very few from the German background, but the doctors in the city-

R.D.:

So that has a lot of broken down those divisions is what I'm saying.

Mrs. Diamond:

All broken down.

K.C.:

Okay. Now, just we'll move to Mrs. Diamond for short while here.

R.D.:

All right.

K.C.:

And if you will, just begin by telling me where you were born, about your parents-

Mrs. Diamond:

Want me to go back to my grandfather?

K.C.:

Yes.

Mrs. Diamond:

All right. My grandfather, Bernard Grossman, and my grandmother Hannah [Cohen 00:25:59] Grossman, came to Louisville in 1872 because her cousin, Maurice Cohen 26:00... Louis Khan's grandfather, Peter Khan's great grandfather. And many people became cousins. The Cohen's, Ferril-Szhalsman, the Jacobsteins, the Handmakers, were all more or less cousins, and they all came because this fine old gentlemen was here already. And they were very fine tailors, I think.

Mrs. Diamond:

So my father was born here the next year. I regret very much that I know nothing about my grandfather's people. It's terrible that we ... He died when I was eight, and it's just awful that we don't know. Because we'd see Grossman many times, and we just don't know.

Mrs. Diamond:

And papa of course went through school here. And I don't know how much high school or business school. And he was down at the LMN. My uncle Max Grossman who was in insurance is also down there, but they knew there was no future there for 27:00Jewish men. Young men. And even later on that was proved to be quite true in the offices there.

Mrs. Diamond:

So my father went in as bookkeeper of [inaudible 00:27:12], Hersch brothers. And I'm sure he was there by 1898. Mama and he married. My brother was born in 96. My brother Sidney Grossman, so they married I guess in 95. And they ... Papa was bookkeeper and became credit manager, and ran the entire business office. And one of the four Hersch's died. He became, he was secretary of treasury, and he was there 30 years, and his eyesight began to fail him. [inaudible 00:27:43] read.

Mrs. Diamond:

And my mother gave him the first dill pickle recipe. I don't want to put anything else on the record about all of that. And they became Paramount foods, of course, didn't they? Papa was in charge of that whole business. In the office.

Mrs. Diamond:

So now let's see, where do we go from there? My-

K.C.:

Where did you live? Where did you-

Mrs. Diamond:

I was born, I can say I was born in the parking lot across from the Jewish hospital. There was little white cottages, and about the fourth house, and I was born in that house. And at the corner was the Manson Grocery later, who would be assistant attorney, [inaudible 00:28:27] attorney Alan Farber's grandparents or great grandparents. They were the Mentins. His mother was a Mentin.

Mrs. Diamond:

And we must've moved when I was quite an infant, because my brother Sidney, I asked him not to go and go do ... I don't remember gas lights. And he said, "Oh yes, on Walnut." I said, "When did we live at Preston and Walnut?" And then we moved when I was five from 406 East Chestnut ... And the synagogue, by the way, the Adath Jeshurun was at Floyd and Chestnut, right across from the Morris School.

Mrs. Diamond:

I went to kindergarten at the Morris School. And all I remember is my lovely 29:00school teacher Helen [inaudible 00:29:03], who is now up in Cleveland, probably an old woman with her daughter there. And also they were building the general hospital when I was going to Hebrew school at Floyd and Chestnut. I also went to Sundayy School at the old YMHA there at First and Chestnut. Just in the lower first grade maybe. And then we moved temporarily, the Sunday School Adath Jeshurun, the conservative synagogue, into the YMHA at Second and Jacob when that was opened. And papa was on the board of that.

Mrs. Diamond:

And then when Adath Jeshurun new building in Brook and College, my father was chairman of that building, and we were married there in 1930. And I taught Sunday school there for 14 years. And I'd say there was a big group of us. Maybe 40 of us kids. And we moved when I was five to 1312 Second. And at five and a half, they admitted children younger, and I entered Cochran School.

K.C.:

The areas where you lived always were mostly Jewish areas?

Mrs. Diamond:

Not at 1312 Second. We were one of the earliest of the Jewish people with a Russian background. There were many of the German Jewish. And one wonderful Spanish, of a Spanish background, was Mr. Rosenberg, who lived a block away, First and Ormsby. He was the undertaker, but a very cultured Sephardic Jew, whom we loved and we were very close friends. And that would be ... One of his daughters was married to a Seltman, who was ... I taught Augusta later, the daughter, but he was on the board of education.

Mrs. Diamond:

Oh, it's interesting about my father. My father ... My grandfather, [inaudible 00:30:48] Grossman, and a group of men including Justice Brandeis' uncle, Lewis Dembitz, started the Adath Jeshurun synagogue as it's known as Adath Jeshurun. Now, Herman Landow said it was in existence before they called it Adath 31:00Jeshurun. And it was over on Preston and Liberty, which was just torn down about three years ago. It was the Volunteers of America building. But I think [Bersholam 00:31:13] had been in that spot, and also Adath Jeshurun. And then they moved to Floyd and Chestnut, then to Brook and College, and now Woodburn.

Mrs. Diamond:

So Mr. Dembitz taught ... He taught Hebrew there. He kept a very kosher home. His daughter Emily was a very close friend of mine. In fact-

K.C.:

Was it the same kind of Hebrew school that Dr. Diamond attended?

Mrs. Diamond:

Oh no. Not this gentlemen. Don't you know who was [inaudible 00:31:38]?

K.C.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mrs. Diamond:

And justice's uncle. University of Learning, if you read page 70 of Mason's book on Brandeis-

R.D.:

He came later. Much improved school than the one I went to.

Mrs. Diamond:

Well, we had a shamash, called Mr. Koletsky at Floyd and Chestnut. We had a red potbellied stove, and I remember it because all of us kids were waiting for him 32:00one afternoon, and we were running around the synagogue, and I put my hand against that red hot stove, and I remember they were building the general hospital. And they took me through that and I fell and got sand and it was a big blister and I didn't go to school for two weeks. Took me over to my grandmother who lived at 226 East Madison with my mother's brother. And ... [interview cuts off 00:32:22]

Mrs. Diamond:

That's where he was born. And I also inherited Justice Brandeis' picture of himself [inaudible 00:32:43] I got that from Emily, his first cousin.

K.C.:

You went to Cochran School you said?

Mrs. Diamond:

I went to Cochran School until the seventh grade. And then four of us were sent to Montserrat at Fifth and York. And Montserrat, and by the way-

K.C.:

Tell me about Montserrat-

Mrs. Diamond:

That was the old museum. That was the old museum. I'm standing way back in 33:00ancient days, that was actually ... Louisville was so low, it was actually like a canal, it flooded. The center part of Louisville downtown was just level and riverbed. But it was used as a hospital I understand during the Civil War. And I taught English there. First I taught for two years at Seventh and Shipp. It was across from [inaudible 00:33:25] in the famous old Cabbage Patch.

Mrs. Diamond:

I can tell you a little bit about that at that time. I don't know if you want me to go into ... have time to go into that. And then we went to, as I say, wait a minute, from ... Oh, I taught for five years at Montserrat. And-

K.C.:

Now had you gone, your teaching-

Mrs. Diamond:

Oh wait a minute-

K.C.:

Had you gone through high school and college-

Mrs. Diamond:

I said, I just said. Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. I was sent to Montserrat. The city was divided into thirds. We had no junior highs until 1930. And that was the central departmental. And all the children that they thought could take advanced English, Latin, and Algebra, were sent to one of these 34:00departmentals. In fact, there was also a school, there were six in Kentucky, where some of the were studying French from the fourth grade on. I can name a few people. Lawrence Cook, Clarence Judah, and some of Francis Schneider-Rosen that took French.

Mrs. Diamond:

But there were four of us that went from Cochran in 7A, and stayed at Montserrat for a year and a half and really learned Latin, because we went over that book three times. I felt very sorry for my daughter in high school. And we went into high school as English II, Latin II, those of us that made it in.

K.C.:

Where did you attend high school-

Mrs. Diamond:

Louisville Girls High School. Practically everybody there. I guess there was an African at that time, I don't know. I don't think so. I think everybody came to Louisville Girls High. And I entered there. Well, the war was on and I was just too young. I was just 12, a little over 12 or something. And I graduated when I was 16. Very bad, because I was around 17 and 18 year old girls all the time. 35:00But I did all right.

K.C.:

Did you encounter much anti-Semitism as a student? As your own person-

Mrs. Diamond:

Well, none of us were, very very few. Just a very few that you could name on one hand that were invited to join the league-

K.C.:

The what?

Mrs. Diamond:

They boys were the enanthema at the boy's high school, and girls were the eluvium. The thing I objected to I guess mostly in high school that we were never asked to participate. And not just the Jewish. Many others. It was run ... I don't want to mention the principal's name. He later died. And he was a good principal I'm sure in many ways. But it seemed as if the rest of us didn't even exist. Just a small group who were mostly the children of the Pendennis club and the wealthy and so forth ran the school. Which was a terrible thing, I think, because well, one of the teachers was horrible. One of the teachers didn't even speak to us when she saw us on the street. And she had to give me 100 when I 36:00made it. But it was unbelievable that there were people like that.

K.C.:

And you were at that Louisville-

Mrs. Diamond:

I don't know that that was because we were Jewish. Maybe she just didn't like us.

K.C.:

At 16 though you were graduated?

Mrs. Diamond:

I graduated yeah.

K.C.:

And then what happened?

Mrs. Diamond:

As part of the National Honor Society. There were eight of us that did. And we were the first class-

K.C.:

Oh, the first class?

Mrs. Diamond:

The first class at the Girls High. There might have been some at the Boys High. But we didn't ever get pins. I hold that against them. All of us, this will be interesting, many of us, from the wealthier families too, unless they were going away to the eastern colleges and that sort of thing, went to Louisville Normal, which was the school up on East Broadway. Which was a fully accredited two year college. It was excellent. And Ms. Elizabeth [Breckley 00:36:48], she was the principal. And we had teachers who came in from University of Chicago, from Tennessee. I remember Ms. Patrick and Ms. Glad-something were from University of 37:00Chicago. And psychology and drama and English. And it was an excellent school.

Mrs. Diamond:

But we went there because the University of Louisville offered no work in pedagogical studies at all. The girls who went to U of L for four years would have to worry about getting a job maybe in a 10 cent store. That may be an extreme example. But they corrected that within a few years. With U of L-

K.C.:

There was no department of education?

Mrs. Diamond:

No. It was not what it is today. Or even 10 years later. So many of us took extension courses or got our degrees later. And I started teaching school. I did my undergraduate teaching at Nicholas [Fenzer 00:37:45] on East Broadway. I was 17 at that time. And we had a mixture of Jewish and non Jewish. I mean-

K.C.:

Why did you become a teacher? Why didn't you go on to U of L to-

Mrs. Diamond:

I had a four year scholarship. I'm ashamed to tell, I didn't use it.

K.C.:

What ... Did your parents pressure you to-

Mrs. Diamond:

No, not at all. I was a bookworm-

K.C.:

You just wanted to be a teacher-

Mrs. Diamond:

I wish I hadn't been so proud of my grades, because I would've taken many scientific things and not worried so much about making honor roll. I think that's very bad.

K.C.:

You wanted to be a teacher though?

Mrs. Diamond:

Oh, yes. I guess. I mean there was nothing else. What else could a ... There was nothing else unless you stayed at the University and became a social worker. Some did that later on.

K.C.:

So social work and teaching were-

Mrs. Diamond:

I mean, the mass of the girls ... The non Jewish physician's daughters and all, were at the Louisville Normal. It was so excellent.

K.C.:

But I'm interested in exactly where women went after high school, or after college. What professions? There were teaching and ...

Mrs. Diamond:

Many teaching. Many. Many. Many of us. Jewish and non Jewish. And our teachers were superb. Many of the woman who taught us in the lower grades were the supervising teachers at the Normal school. It was superb.

K.C.:

Could a woman have become an engineer, say?

Mrs. Diamond:

I don't know. I suppose-

R.D.:

That would be very rare. It would've been very rare.

Mrs. Diamond:

But they went into social work, and very few went into medicine. The only Jewish doctor was Dr. Nora Brandeis. Do you know of any other Jewish doctor? She was an older woman. And there were many of us who had a club at the YMHA at Second and Jacob called the [inaudible 00:39:29] Club. And I'd say maybe half of them were teachers. And we'd have lectures, speakers come in. It was a dinner club and that sort of thing.

Mrs. Diamond:

So we did many interesting things in a limited way. Louisville was very provincial culturally compared to what it is today. I suppose we owe that to Mayor Farnsley. And Doctor and I are equally interested in acting and many things. Theater, music, Doctor knows a great deal about music. He could pick up a ballad and play it. He has perfect hearing.

R.D.:

Well.

Mrs. Diamond:

Pitch or hearing.

R.D.:

You think when I was in New York and I lived there for two years with my uncle-

Mrs. Diamond:

With this Bernard Gabriel-

R.D.:

That boy was a musical genius. Well, music was on all the time, and I have a good ear for music. So I have loved music a good part of my life now.

K.C.:

What instruments do you play?

R.D.:

I played the fiddle, as I call it. I also played the-

Mrs. Diamond:

He could pick out the piano. He could pick out anything without a teacher he could pick it out.

R.D.:

When I was a kid, my mother wanted me ... She said, "Do you want to play music of some kind?" "Yes." "The violin?" "Yeah." So for about $10 they bought a violin and that was quite a lot of money too. $10. And I paid 50 cents a lesson once a week. And the teacher was certainly not up to it at all. He got 50 cents anyhow. And he showed me the notes. And whatever I learned later on about music 41:00I learned on my own. I went to college, I was constantly playing when I had spare time. And I was fairly proficient.

K.C.:

You said in high school you worked on the literary magazine. Do you still have literary interests?

Mrs. Diamond:

Oh yes. He's read at Harvard classes.

R.D.:

She asks me all the time to go ahead and write.

Mrs. Diamond:

I'm very angry with him because this man has talents, and he says he's lazy. He could be a journalist, he's that highly trained. A lot of us can write, but this man has talent-

R.D.:

When I write a letter to somebody, who wrote that letter? And so on and so forth.

Mrs. Diamond:

Every now and then he writes-

R.D.:

I leave the fodder all out and I go at it just-

Mrs. Diamond:

No, he has the ability to-

R.D.:

People don't understand that.

Mrs. Diamond:

As an editorial writer and journalist. And he also could've been a good pianist or good violinist. And instead he's just been a hardworking doctor who's adored his children. And we haven't told you about the grandchildren.

K.C.:

No. We're working our way slowly to the later years. Okay, let's [crosstalk 00:41:55]-

Mrs. Diamond:

Go ahead.

K.C.:

Both of you mentioned the Depression, or at least Dr. Diamond did. And I'm 42:00wondering what kind of effects did the Depression have on you all? You had just gotten married in 1930. Dr. Diamond was struggling privately in practice. What was that like?

Mrs. Diamond:

Well, Doctor's people on the corner of Floyd and Preston, I would say-

R.D.:

Well, that was mine-

Mrs. Diamond:

Wait just a minute. Wait just a minute. So we always had food because his mother said to his father, "Now, look, you'll have horses. So if you're going to get up at five o'clock in the morning and go out and look at those horses, you can just get some produce and put it in that empty store." So dad was so generous, and for a dollar and a half, we had enough food ... In fact, he always overbought-

R.D.:

Dad didn't have any anyhow. So [crosstalk 00:42:46]-

Mrs. Diamond:

But any who, I kept a schoolgirl ... who would come home from a fine girls' mountain estate that would live with many others. And I also had a little girl who still considers herself ... Calls us mama and papa. She's 58 now. And she was just here a couple weeks ago. And she watched our son-

R.D.:

Tell him about Gazelle-

Mrs. Diamond:

Just a minute. And we had food, but for two years I didn't even buy a piece of clothing. My mother's sister happened to be very wealthy, so she would send boxes and I'd do it all ... And I don't think he appreciated what a good manager ... But we went down to minus four dollars and had to borrow $50 from his brother in law. But most of the doctors, I don't want to name them, went into debt $10,000 on rent. We had simple-

K.C.:

You mean offices or-

Mrs. Diamond:

Yes. They could not pay their office rent. I don't want to name names, but oh-

R.D.:

These young people will never understand it-

Mrs. Diamond:

You can't imagine-

R.D.:

You just can't do it-

Mrs. Diamond:

What it was like. And well, there were transients coming through all the time. There was a family, he's gone now, but there was a Herman [Pickaski 00:43:46]. Each state had a Director of Transience. And Herman and Roseman came in here, and he would take care of people who would come through on freight cars and just take out ... I'd have sent them on somewhere else. And each state had them.

R.D.:

That was Roosevelt had these first-

Mrs. Diamond:

That was the Depression-

R.D.:

That's when Roosevelt started the NRA and all that-

Mrs. Diamond:

Whatever it was. But conditions were frightful.

K.C.:

And I'm-

Mrs. Diamond:

We didn't have five dollars. The only time we've ever reneged on a pledge, we used to go to the women's club, to the lectures there. And we said we've give them five dollars. And that's the only time we didn't pay it, because we just felt we couldn't. We had marvelous speakers that would come in. And you wouldn't have to pay the five dollars I guess for the whole series or whatever. You could go anyhow. But many people were worse off, because we just tried to stay within our means. We had a little house. But I say, I had more help, and we had plenty of food.

K.C.:

[crosstalk 00:44:43] Where was your practice?

R.D.:

I saw many ... My practice-

Mrs. Diamond:

At Second and Freedman.

R.D.:

My office moved from one place to another. I was behind a drug store-

Mrs. Diamond:

On Seventh and Oak.

R.D.:

On Seventh and Oak. And then-

Mrs. Diamond:

Twelfth.

R.D.:

I was at Twelfth and Broadway.

Mrs. Diamond:

And then Second and Gray.

R.D.:

And then on Second and Gray.

Mrs. Diamond:

With the flood that washed out of there. Six to eight feet of water there for 45:00three weeks.

R.D.:

All right. All right.

Mrs. Diamond:

That's an experience.

R.D.:

It was a matter of trying to stay above water, actually. I mean, not physically above water. But there was nothing, no money to spare at all. And really, things didn't begin to get better in spite of all the things you hear, until we got into the Second World War, which is a terrible thing to say.

Mrs. Diamond:

In '39-

R.D.:

Then a lot of people began to work and various army-

Mrs. Diamond:

After '39.

R.D.:

Activities. And then patients began to pay their bills. That's the point to me. Is that during the profession, we saw many people, treated them-

Mrs. Diamond:

Collected about 35%-

R.D.:

And they didn't have anything. And you didn't have very much. So they often would say ... I can remember one particular case where a fellow had a six year old child that was very ill. And I was treating the child. And he said, "I'll 46:00try to pay you." He said, "I make three dollars a week at a gas station." And he worked all week there, at least five, six days. He got three dollars a week. So he said, "I'll try to pay you a dollar a week or something as we go along." I said, "How can you pay me a dollar a week when you only have three dollars to live on?" Well, he's all, "I'll try to do the best I can."

R.D.:

Well, that's the sort of thing I was going to-

Mrs. Diamond:

I had a housekeeper for three dollars a week.

R.D.:

But that was more or less, to a lesser extent true generally. Nobody had anything.

K.C.:

And so there was no reason for you to pressure people to give money when-

Mrs. Diamond:

But you had to pay your bills-

K.C.:

They didn't have anything-

Mrs. Diamond:

You still ... But I had a housekeeper for three dollars. I had ... It was unbelievable. Oh, when Marshall was born in 1932 I had a woman who came and worked all day for 12 and a half cents an hour. She lived in the neighborhood. She would sew and help me. A dollar a day.

R.D.:

We might add in our household, there was a thing that happened. Giselle [VanCleve 00:47:08], who was at that time how old was she, 16?

Mrs. Diamond:

About 13 or 14.

R.D.:

She got a job in my office by sheer chance.

Mrs. Diamond:

Just wandered in by accident.

R.D.:

For practically just enough to live on. And she lived with us. She came to live with us.

Mrs. Diamond:

For a couple of years.

R.D.:

She now teaches at the University of Indiana. She got quite a following.

Mrs. Diamond:

Well, she-

R.D.:

And she works at Foreign League-

Mrs. Diamond:

That's her father.

R.D.:

And she writes letters. You're the one who taught me, [Spinoza 00:47:38], you're the one who trained me in Bach. [inaudible 00:47:41] And so she has quite a knowledge. And we visited her last year in Indiana, where she is, and the first thing she did, "I want to play some of that music, that Bach's music so you can hear it-"

Mrs. Diamond:

Let me tell him about Giselle. Her second husband happened to only be [inaudible 48:0000:48:03]. The famous sociologist. The author of The Family. So we became very close friends with Kirk, of course. And they had a home up there, it's called Kirk. And for probably nothing he bought 30 acres right behind Brown County. And Giselle inherited that. He has two children who will get it. And he died of cancer, and then she married the head of the department of music, Dr. Karl van [Bussberg 00:48:25]. So she's a remarkable person.

Mrs. Diamond:

She teaches 450 art history students twice a week in the auditorium. And they line up, and they even buy, try to buy, the ticket of admission. And she's deeply interested in Jewish things-

R.D.:

I guess we're real of her. Of the fact that she grew up in our home and-

Mrs. Diamond:

Well, she's a character.

R.D.:

She got her culture from our home.

Mrs. Diamond:

Well, no, her grandfather down in Tennessee was a minister. Her mother died of cancer when she was five or six-

R.D.:

Well she lived with us-

Mrs. Diamond:

Well, I know. But her step father was not the right sort of man and she wouldn't 49:00stay around him-

R.D.:

She knows more about Jewish people and Zionism than many Jews here.

Mrs. Diamond:

Let me get back to Hebrew school and my daily activities as a child. I'd go to gymnasium three times, two or three times a week, and then go to Hebrew school. And we'd walk home from Second and Jacob, where the YMHA was, to Second and [inaudible 00:49:29]. And if we had two pennies we'd get a dill pickle about seven inches long. A big fat one. And a penny's worth of crackers. For two cents. And our allowances in those days were a quarter, if we were lucky. We'd go to a picture show. The [Swylers 00:49:43] lived across from us, so sometimes I didn't have to pay-

R.D.:

You got your [inaudible 00:49:46] with you?

Mrs. Diamond:

Yeah. But we'd go to the picture show for a nickel, and then we'd get a soda for a nickel, and we'd ... Maybe we'd pay a dime for a picture, and then we'd wonder what we'd do with the other dime the rest of the week.

Mrs. Diamond:

Oh, and I would take music. I would go and ... To show you how conditions, 50:00neighborhood conditions would change, on Sunday morning in [inaudible 00:50:08], I would go in on Sunday morning to about Brook and Floyd or Breckenridge ... My brother's violin teacher also taught piano. So I'd go on the bus by myself as a little girl and get off there and walk those three or four blocks. Who would think of such a thing? I used to get on the bus even ... I was director of the Zionist Youth Commission here and founded that a year later, after I was married. And the bus that passed North Auburn, it would take me right to Second and Broadway, and I'd go down there and have a meeting at night and come home alone at night. It was nothing. Things you just wouldn't think of doing anymore. Everybody knows how horribly things have changed.

Mrs. Diamond:

But it was a different world that we lived in. And it was a very wonderful world too.

K.C.:

How so?

Mrs. Diamond:

Sit out on the steps as a child and read. And the children read more in those days. Well, I guess first generation. My mother was not born here-

R.D.:

[inaudible 00:51:03]

Mrs. Diamond:

But that's it. Not only that, though. We aspired, the children of the first generation aspired, and I think they still do, to make something of themselves. When they came from good homes like many many of the Jewish homes ... And I don't know whether Jewish or non Jewish if they are taught to observe the 10 commandments and the Golden Rule we'd have a decent rule. That's the problem. Right there. Doesn't matter what creed or what religion.

R.D.:

You were interested in anti-Semitism. Of course we've gone through that most of our lives. But now it doesn't bother us, of course. But I mean, in those days it was important. Now, I was in the Army in the First World War. I wasn't really in the Army, it was an S-A-T-C, the Student Army Training Corps. Is was 1919.

K.C.:

ROTC like or something?

R.D.:

Well, it was originally ROTC-

Mrs. Diamond:

It was officers training-

R.D.:

Then changed to SATC, at that time we were at war. And actually put us in the war. [crosstalk 00:52:09] I was an engineer, they put us on the side to preserve us, as it were, until we graduated, so we'd go into the Army as engineers. But the reason I bring it up is about anti-Semitism. Because that had always been back in my mind. We all eight at that time, this was early 1918. At a long table, and they put milk here, bread there, all the students we were all college boys. And we were at this age [inaudible 00:52:47] in Chicago.

R.D.:

And I'm putting it on record because you might be interested in Jewish reactions. I was sitting there and this was-

Mrs. Diamond:

A very rotten time-

R.D.:

Went out and took the pitcher of milk from where we were, and I said, "We want some milk too." So I'm putting this on record. He said, "You goddamn Jew. I'm taking that milk." I said, "You bastard, I'm going to get you after this. After we get out in Paris." Oh, everybody was all upset for that. The whole crowd gathered around now. Well, I really did follow up. He came to me, he was particular, but I was waiting for him. And I was at that time about 20, 21 years old. I was a pretty husky kid. I'm rather short, but I'm pretty husky.

R.D.:

And he came in, I didn't need to beat him up. Before he could do anything I grabbed him by the collar, picked him up, and there him over ... In those days we had cots. I tell this [inaudible 00:53:58]. And he fell over the second cot 54:00and he laid there. At first I was afraid I might have broke his neck, you know. The whole crow ran over to see what's happening. What happened to him. He looked around, and finally walked up and walked over to his cot and that was the end of that.

R.D.:

But that shows you the reaction that a lot of us had. I wasn't going to take that. If he had called me a son of a so and so, all right, so what. But he said something about my people, "You goddamn Jew." That I couldn't tolerate. So poor attitudes.

Mrs. Diamond:

You've been talking to two people who have been the leaders, some of the leaders of the Zionist movement in the city. About a whole 10, 15 of us have been very ardent. And in fact, I'm the only person, if I survive, will be 58 on the Hadassah Board in 1980. And I was just honored as the first honoree of the Hadassah for Israel luncheon two years ago. They have one every year now. Ms. Judith Epstein, the national president of Hadassah [inaudible 00:54:59].

K.C.:

Do you find, both of you, do you find any ... Is being a Zionist compatible with 55:00being, oh, say, and American?

Mrs. Diamond:

Oh, of course.

K.C.:

Do you find the two-

Mrs. Diamond:

I'd fight and die for this country.

R.D.:

Of course.

Mrs. Diamond:

This is my country.

K.C.:

Well what about if there were a conflict-

Mrs. Diamond:

This is a matter of a homeland. My mother had everybody in her family murdered in Europe except one cousin whom we visited in Tel Aviv.

R.D.:

Can you imagine any kind of a conflict between Israel and America? That's ridiculous.

K.C.:

What about selling jets to Saudi Arabia?

Mrs. Diamond:

We were over there. We were delegates to that conference in Washington. It's too bad we don't have more time-

R.D.:

Even now they're wondering why we're going to be ... Reading the papers recently.

Mrs. Diamond:

You know what I fear?

R.D.:

Carter's idea was to try to placate the Saudi Arabians and so on. Apparently he's not doing a good-

Mrs. Diamond:

They're afraid of Russia. What I fear is when those jets are delivered in four or five years, you will see [Sadaj 00:56:00] something happen to Sadaj. You will 56:00see something happen to the head of Saudi Arabia, because Russia and Syria and all the others are after them. And that's our know how. And it just happened because we support the Near East Report, which I hope you will read. It should be in your library. And AIPAC, which is American Israel Public Affairs Conference. Which is called Jewish Lobby. We just, we're the only two from Kentucky who went up there everyday because we were going two days later to visit our grandsons. We have twin grandsons, 12, in Bethesda, Maryland. And their birthday is April 12th. So we were there through all of that. We were at that banquet, that'll never be forgotten.

R.D.:

Well, he asked you a question.

Mrs. Diamond:

All right, okay, go ahead.

R.D.:

About the loyalties. That's a ... Can you think of a more loyal American than Louis Brandeis?

Mrs. Diamond:

Can you think of anybody more important to America than Israel? [crosstalk 00:56:56] That's what Sam Feiss says.

R.D.:

Somebody on the Supreme Court, and a very great judge-

Mrs. Diamond:

But he's not rooted as a Zionist. His family here was not at all.

R.D.:

He was, he ...

K.C.:

He was a Zionist.

R.D.:

He was a Zionist.

Mrs. Diamond:

He became a Zionist, because he realized-

R.D.:

Same attitude that actually I have.

Mrs. Diamond:

After the [inaudible 00:57:13] case-

R.D.:

There's got to be a place where Jews can say, at least no matter what happens, here's a place where we can go.

Mrs. Diamond:

Nobody opened the doors, you know?

R.D.:

If that had been the case during the war, a lot of Jews could've gone-

Mrs. Diamond:

Saved-

R.D.:

And at least fought with whoever. The English or whoever in Palestine at that time. But the English wouldn't let them come through or any of that. So you see, there must be a place where these people can go when it's necessary. So of course the loyalty has no real meaning. Who's a loyal American? Any kind of a battle that come up, every Jew in America-

Mrs. Diamond:

This is our country-

R.D.:

Would fight for America-

Mrs. Diamond:

This is our country.

R.D.:

But why worry about what ... It would be like Israel to question the loyalty.

Mrs. Diamond:

Only democracy that America invented-

R.D.:

Questioning the loyalty to the United States is ridiculous.

K.C.:

Well I didn't necessarily mean if there were a war between Israel and America 58:00which side would you be on-

Mrs. Diamond:

Oh no, no.

K.C.:

But I mean, just in a sense you belong to two countries.

Mrs. Diamond:

No we don't. We're not citizens of Israel.

K.C.:

No, but I mean in the sense that-

Mrs. Diamond:

We love-

R.D.:

What did they say about the Irish? Did they say about the Irish-

Mrs. Diamond:

The Irish too. Don't they parade up and down Broadway every year?

R.D.:

There's people all over the world-

Mrs. Diamond:

Any ethnic-

R.D.:

They have certain groups. Certain ethnic groups. And they have their loyalties here, and they also have a ... feeling-

Mrs. Diamond:

Cultural allegiance-

R.D.:

For their-

Mrs. Diamond:

But not political-

R.D.:

People where they came from. There's nothing wrong with that-

Mrs. Diamond:

In fact the-

R.D.:

Some people want to make something of it, you see.

Mrs. Diamond:

In fact, Dr. Diamond was president of the League for Labor Palestine. But when it became political, he was also president of ZOA in 19 ... Here in Louisville in 1929. But when it became political, and became the League of Zionists, who were raising money for political propaganda for the League of Zionism in Israel 59:00in this country, we just dropped out because we didn't think that was right. And many others did. I mean, they don't do that anymore, but they were trying to prop ... It was divided so politically there that we thought all we wanted to do was to help any Jew. And so was Hadassah, and so was most any Jewish group in this country. They just want to help the Jews. They're not interested of the politics of the Jews in Israel. And of course we're very much opposed to a theocratic state with the highly ultra religious having too much control.

R.D.:

This question of loyalty is a lot of nonsense. There is no more loyal group in this country than Jews.

Mrs. Diamond:

Than the Jewish people. And-

R.D.:

[inaudible 00:59:42] The Jews have been given an opportunity to live like normal human beings and develop themselves. That's what this is about. This is our country.

K.C.:

What about during World War II, when the war did come, and all ... Did you have much knowledge of what was happening to Jews in Germany?

Mrs. Diamond:

On, our honeymoon, wait a minute, let me say this. In 1930 when we drove, we said, "What's going to happen when Hitler gets in there?" That was 1930, but he had been talking that way since 1923.

K.C.:

So you-

R.D.:

[crosstalk 01:00:18] What actually happened-

K.C.:

Or what you thought was happening?

Mrs. Diamond:

We didn't know.

R.D.:

We really didn't know.

Mrs. Diamond:

We didn't know. But there were people who did know.

R.D.:

We knew they were breaking the windows. We knew they were-

Mrs. Diamond:

But there was someone-

R.D.:

Putting some in labor camps. But that was all camouflaged.

Mrs. Diamond:

But there was someone from Hitler's cabinet who was trying to get a message through to Roosevelt. And Breckenridge, not Breckenridge in Kentucky now, but whoever was at Breckenridge, and Hornell Hill, were not permitting it to go through. And finally, markedly it got through to Morgenthau. And Morgenthau to Mrs. Roosevelt. And then it got through to Roosevelt. Of course our country was fighting for its life at that time.

R.D.:

Well-

Mrs. Diamond:

But just the same, much could've been done. The gates should've been opened here.

K.C.:

But-

Mrs. Diamond:

If a Jewish family in this country, if they had known, would not have taken my mothers ... If they had to sleep on the floor, I would've taken anyone to save a human being.

K.C.:

I've heard it said that the Roosevelt administration did know what was-

Mrs. Diamond:

They knew.

K.C.:

Happening-

Mrs. Diamond:

They knew something.

K.C.:

And did, in fact, turn boats away.

R.D.:

They knew. But of course, there's something to be said, and that is that we were in a way ourselves, and we had so many problems of our own that, well, after all, Jews are Jews, we can't-

Mrs. Diamond:

But the lousy ones were the British-

R.D.:

[crosstalk 01:01:37] fine just because the Jews are in some trouble there. But they knew because they were being told. There were some [inaudible 01:01:43] later on who were telling them all the time what was taking place over there.

Mrs. Diamond:

Now the British sat back when Hadassah sent a-

R.D.:

They were awful.

Mrs. Diamond:

When they sent a group of 60 doctors and nurses from Mount Scopus hospitals ... It was a part of Jerusalem at that time. And they were ambushed. The British 62:00were not, I don't know, 600 feet away, the knew, they-

K.C.:

This was after the war?

Mrs. Diamond:

No, this was during. Before Mount Scopus was-

K.C.:

Okay.

Mrs. Diamond:

And Dr. [Yhaski 01:02:16], the head doctor of the Hadassah Hospital, now Scopus ... See now we have to go to another hospital. And all these nurses, 12 doctors, 16 doctors, and the rest were nurses. I think there were 62 people that were murdered right within the range of the British.

R.D.:

[inaudible 01:02:32] so you know that stinks.

Mrs. Diamond:

And then Hussein came in and used that hospital as a stable for 19 years-

R.D.:

But we had-

Mrs. Diamond:

Covered up their gravestones-

R.D.:

[crosstalk 01:02:39] the Jewish, in fact I don't think most of the non Jewish people in America knew what was taking place, how terrible that was, was taking place in Germany under Hitler. But we certainly did not know the extent of it. We had an idea that things were certainly not good. But the slaughter, that was 63:00taking place-

Mrs. Diamond:

May I say just this, because in part we've talked so much about Israel. There were 400,000 Arabs in Israel before 1930. They increased to 1,200,000 because for the first time, they were being paid the same money than Jewish industrialists or Jewish people were being paid. The Jewish workers. The same amount of money. So they tripled. And that is the basis of all your trouble there. The very wealthy sheiks, the ones at the top, did not want the Jewish people to take these people out of the Middle Ages.

R.D.:

Well, I don't know. That's not important.

Mrs. Diamond:

That's the basis of ... Well, it is important. Because we've said so much-

R.D.:

You've got blinders [inaudible 01:03:43].

K.C.:

And during World War II, was there in the Jewish community or among Jews some kind of interest or enthusiasm to say, join up and go to Germany and fight? Or did-

Mrs. Diamond:

During the war?

K.C.:

In mass, did Jews volunteer for draft?

R.D.:

[crosstalk 01:04:05] you've got to remember ... How old are you?

K.C.:

25.

R.D.:

35.

K.C.:

25.

Mrs. Diamond:

25. I told you he wasn't born.

R.D.:

You don't remember, during the war, they didn't ask you whether you wanted to join or not. You were put in the Army.

K.C.:

I'm talking about before-

R.D.:

You didn't have to work at mass.

K.C.:

I'm talking about-

Mrs. Diamond:

Well, there were two Jewish-

K.C.:

You still could ... You could either be drafted or you could volunteer.

Mrs. Diamond:

There was a Jewish boy, the Seleman family who died in Spain, you know. I want to say this before this thing runs out, we have four grandchildren, and our daughter is Mrs. Harry Rose's wife, in Houston, Texas. And she and Harry have a daughter, Anne, 15, and a daughter Joan, 13. And then our son, Dr. Marshall Diamond, have- [interview cuts off 01:04:47]