Interview with Eleanor Young Love, October 10, 1978

Note: The original tapes contain considerable background noise, making transcription difficult; lost words are indicated by question marks in brackets ("[?]"); more extensive losses are indicated by bracketed question marks with ellipsis ("[--?...]").

KENNETH CHUMBLEY:This is Ken Chumbley of the University of Louisville Archives. The date is October 2, 1978, and as part of our black oral history project I'm interviewing Dr. Eleanor Young Love, a professor in the Ed. Psych [educational psychology] department at the University of Louisville. Dr. Love, if you will, I'd like for you to start by telling me just whatever you can remember about your childhood. If you'll give me -- where you were born and just the basic information.

ELEANOR YOUNG LOVE:I guess I can start out by telling a little bit about my parents because I was born in Lincoln Institute, Lincoln Ridge, Kentucky and my mother and my father went to Lincoln as students. And, of course, met there and married after that and then Dad went into the Army and after that he came back to Lincoln to teach and to coach and I was born at that time.

KC:This is Whitney Young, Sr.

EL:This is Whitney Young, Sr., my father, uh-huh. He started out, as I said, he started out as a teacher of engineering and coach there at Lincoln Institute. I remember the coaching part so well because they didn't have a bus to transport his team and he piled them all in the back of a truck and that's the way they traveled. But they won almost all of their games, though, because that was really important.

My mother was the postmaster; she was the first black postmaster in the United States. Some people say in the world, I'm not sure, but I have seen her written up as the first black postmistress in the United States.

KC:And what was her name?

EL:Laura Ray Young. And she was born in Lebanon, Kentucky. My father was born 2:00right outside of Lexington, Kentucky.

KC:Do you remember hearing your parents talk about their parents, grandparents?

EL:Yes. Not as much as I would like to have heard them talk because since Roots I wish that I had gotten it all taped. But I do know that my dad came from a very poor family, and he used to talk about things, how hard his mother used to have to work to get him through school. He went to Chandler Normal School.

KC:Where is Chandler Normal School?

EL:It's in Frankfort.

KC:Kentucky?

EL:Uh-huh. It was, I guess it's gone now, because they call it the old Chandler Normal, now, I don't know what it is today. My father had two sisters and a brother but they're all dead at this time. My mother's father owned a well, a 3:00spring there, and she used to tell us about people coming from miles and miles around just to get their spring water and to pay for it and this helped pay for their livelihood. She had nine brothers and sisters and at this time only one sister is living, all the rest of them are dead, including my mother. So I'm sure that they had, I feel my mother had -- it was a good life but they were not rich, but I don't think that they were as poor as possibly my father. When he came to Lincoln Institute he said that he came there with a sack in his hand, with one pair of trousers and I think a pair of shoes and a shirt. But he wanted an education and I guess that's part of his race relations because somebody at Chandler Normal, some white woman there, saw a lot in him and encouraged him to 4:00go on and made him feel like that he was very, had a lot to give and could be an important person.

KC:There seems to be a parallel then between your father's life and that of Booker T. Washington, because in his book Up From Slavery he mentioned that he was kind of befriended by a white man at the -- I think he went to some kind of institute in Virginia -- where this white man was involved with some kind of institute in Virginia and saw that he was a promising young man and kind of took him under his wing and -- but Booker T. Washington, as I recall, when he went to that institute in Virginia, arrived there with nothing and even slept under the steps. But managed to make it.

EL:When you said slept under the steps and about the institute, it reminded me a 5:00bit back about the history of Lincoln Institute. Berea College is probably the parent of Lincoln Institute, because in 1904 when the Day Law -- prior to that blacks and whites in Kentucky went to school together and then after the Day Law blacks and whites could no longer go to school together. And they were supposed to take the money from the endowment, from Berea College but it was only the money that was given, it wasn't really from an endowment, the money that was given for black students at Berea, and they had to raise that amount of money. So they didn't take it out of the endowment but they had to raise it.

KC:I think they had to raise $350,000, as I remember.

EL:Right.

KC:And Carnegie, Andrew Carnegie, had given some money or would give money if it were matched, I think, or something like that.

EL:Right. And again, this is where we got a lot of help from, he had a lot of help from black and white friends giving donations. But -- and the first president, A.E. Thomson, was the chaplain at Berea at the time, and he brought some of his staff to Lincoln, and they went out and raised the money to start Lincoln. The people did not want Lincoln Institute to be built -- the first site was to be in St. Matthews, I think, and they refused to let it be built. But I remember when my father got to Lincoln Institute they had to sleep with guns under their heads because the white people that lived close by and around refused to have a black school in the neighborhood.

KC:And of course, there had been the Holland Bill, as it was called.

EL:Right.

KC:Which tried to prevent there being a school but that was overturned in the legislature.

EL:Yes. But it was still, you know, kind of --

KC:Yeah, touch and go.

EL:-- touch and go thing there for awhile, and Dad remembers all that because he kind of felt the pressure from all that at the time. He worked his way through Lincoln Institute. He worked at the dairy farm, he told me, and the way he won 7:00Mother was by getting her butter because there wasn't much butter. And he would slip her all the butter that he could get. But anyway, they stayed there and after I was born Whitney Junior, was also born at Lincoln Institute. Arnita was born, my sister who is teaching at the University of Illinois, I mean, University of Chicago, I went to the University of Illinois. She's teaching at the University of Chicago; she was born in Detroit. Daddy was working for Ford Company.

KC:He was an engineer and taught engineering at the Institute.

EL:Right.

KC:Mechanical engineering or electrical?

EL:Well, that was --

KC:Or was it just engineering?

EL:-- what he taught was all called engineering--

KC:Engineering, yeah.

EL:-- and somewhere along the line [?] he wanted to put in the engineering course, electrical engineering course, and the legislators did not want to give 8:00him the money to put in the course at Lincoln Institute. They thought that, you know, blacks didn't need to learn that. And Dad thought about what other things could he come up with and he came up with the terminology "janitorial engineering" and that's all it took. As soon as he filed for that, to get the money for janitorial engineering they immediately accepted that and he still taught the same course as he would have taught.

KC:Is that right?

EL:Electrical engineering.

KC:You know, in my researching this and looking back through the microfilm collection of the old Lincoln Institute, I read a number of letters and newspaper articles on the founding of the Institute and its trying to get started and all, and it's almost as if whites who founded that had rather a patronizing attitude toward blacks. And during the early 1900s, I'm sure that was the common attitude. But looking back on it now, I guess it seems a little 9:00uncommon. But the emphasis, the whole emphasis was on training, literally training, and I guess educating, too, but mostly training blacks to work as, to work on farms and to go out into the schools and teach and all. Was that emphasis -- when you were a student there, was that still the emphasis or had that changed some?

EL:No, it had changed a lot then because a lot of the old ones had died off at this time and a number of young, both black and whites, were on the faculty at the time, and they lived on the campus and they had young children the same age as the three of us, and so I think the attitudes were different; that they knew that blacks wanted for their children the same thing, the whites knew that they 10:00wanted for their children the same thing that the whites wanted. So it was sort of a cooperative thing and we wanted to really prepare these students to go out into the world, to go on to college; to, you know, become prepared to take a trade or something, but to be prepared to make a living and to be a good citizen. We still held onto the thing of Berea, you know, the training they did, the art, [?] that sort of thing and it still worked.

KC:Was there much of a religious emphasis?

EL:Yes, very much so.

KC:I know Berea is --

EL:I went to church so much and Sunday school and prayer meetings and I guess that's why I'm still very religious, because that was my early training. And at that time, they didn't allow dancing or anything of recreation unless it was religious recreation, getting together, singing spirituals, that type of thing, learning about the Bible, that was our recreation.

KC:Well, your father was president of the Institute from 1897 -- no, wait, that's wrong; he lived from 1897, didn't he, until 1975? What do you remember about his years as president of the Institute? Anything --?

EL:I remember that the school was going to close because the enrollment had dropped [?] and because of lack of money and that they owed so many bills. One outstanding bill we had was $10,000 and at the time when we needed that money and just before the school got ready to close my father, Whitney Young, Sr., and a man called Mansir Tydings, who was quite well known -- he's dead now also, but he was well known here in Louisville, they decided that together that they could 12:00keep Lincoln Institute open through what was known as the Faith Plan. And what the Faith Plan was, was that every woman working there had to believe that God somehow or another would [get me through?]. So they had no salaries and whatever money they made they decided they would just split that between all the teachers there. But then all the teachers got together as teams, usually husband and wife, and they went out all over Kentucky and started gathering up students to come to Lincoln Institute. This is when they found out that so many black students were not going to any high school at all. There were fifty-five counties in Kentucky that did not have a black high school, and they couldn't go to a white high school, so their education ended after they finished elementary school and these black kids, they just started working. Well, here are all of us getting these kids there but also all the teachers [?] was the beginning of what 13:00was compulsory education for black students and what ended up in a law for all students, black or white, but all black students had to go on to school. And they found out, of course, that the basic thing was that they didn't have enough money to build black schools. But what they could do was to send all the black students to Lincoln Institute and pay the ADA average to get attendance at Lincoln Institute. So each county that didn't have a black school accepted this and they paid that.

KC:When was this? When did these teachers go out to find students?

EL:Oh, it must have been --

KC:Just an approximate date.

EL:-- yes, but if I could just think; I'm horrible on dates. I would say around '40, somewhere in the '40s. Maybe in the late '30s.

KC:And that was during your father's tenure.

EL:Yes. And, well, anyways, so by the students coming there and by the counties paying for it, and then when Lincoln Institute finally became a state school and such, and was getting some money, appropriations from the state. But just before that, before we started getting money from the state, there was a guy, a black guy in Lexington that died and left $10,000 to pay off that debt that they knew just plagued us at the time. And --

KC:The Faith Plan seemed to have worked.

EL:It worked. And the other interesting part was that he not only left $10,000 to Lincoln Institute but he left $5,000 I think it was to the University of Kentucky. And I think by the articles and things coming out in the paper, a black guy doing this kind of thing at that time, not many black people had that kind of money to give. Or they would have left all possible to blacks and I think this helped in really getting the whites interested in Lincoln Institute, start donating [?] more money. People like the Belknaps, the people that were on 15:00the board starting donating a lot of money; we got quite a bit of donations.

KC:What do you suppose their basic motive or motivation for donating the money? The whites who were donating? Obviously they believed that the work at Lincoln Institute was important enough; anything beyond that? Did they see it as a solution to a problem?

EL:Well, I really don't think at that particular time that they thought of it in those terms; I think it's kind of like if you're on a board today and you feel responsible for that organization. And usually people who have money, who are on boards, donate to the specific board that they're on. I think they thought, "Well, here is a-- people who are doing things, with a good organization, I'm on 16:00the board and I should do something about it." And I think that usually when they came out for the board meeting in June, they always wrote pretty good checks.

KC:Yeah.

EL:I don't know whether it was obligation, whether it was a desire to help, people needed help, I don't know exactly what it was, but I don't think a solution of keeping blacks and whites apart, I don't think that they thought that way. I think [?] business [?] united to give education to the children.

KC:What were your student days like? Your brother and you and your other sister, or your sister, were you all three there at basically the same time?

EL:Yeah. We went to Lincoln Normal School which was about a mile and a half --

KC:Was that an elementary school?

EL:An elementary school, over on Highway 60 and we walked most of the time 17:00through the fields and the railroad tracks and so we had the experience of doing that. Of course, my first negative experience was, as far as race relations -- because we had to pass all the white homes and so forth -- and I remember back, you know, they used to call us [?] names that were not too nice and we had to try to find some names to call them back and that was the way we [?] at the time, which is quite different from the names people call each other today. But I still could not help but think of the people that were at Lincoln Institute, the white people -- that there are good whites and there are bad whites, like there are good blacks and bad blacks and I think that was all about the loss of [?] putting [you?] in one category, as a race, you know, particularly as individuals. So us by having such a good relationship with whites at Lincoln 18:00Institute I feel that this is why, dealing with the state, I've been able to sit down at the conference table and be able to communicate and to be able to get the kinds of things they needed for their [education?] because they did not have it -- high school --

KC:[High school.]

EL:-- that some blacks had.

KC:Do you think that some of that was due, too, perhaps to the kind of religious training you were getting, education?

EL:I'm sure part of that was.

KC:Were you -- were there mostly white ministers or black ministers teaching Sunday school, preaching and the like?

EL:Well, there weren't ministers, they were just religious people. Teaching and, you know -- like my father at that time was not a minister but he could preach better than most ministers I've ever heard, and often did preach for our church services and so forth. But I think that they were just, at that time, they were just good black and good white people who believed in God and believed in the 19:00right thing and tried to instill that in all the students and they certainly did in us.

KC:What -- this might be a difficult question, I don't know -- but how was the gospel presented as you recall? Was it one -- of course, now we have the gospel of liberation; you have James Cone at the Union Theological Seminary with his God of the Oppressed and all that black liberation theology; and then, and perhaps still today, you have this idea of submission, be submissive and the like; what do you recall about the gospel as it was preached to you, or as the Christian message as it was given to you?

EL:The only thing that I can remember is the same thing that I live by now, the only thing I've ever known was the Golden Rule. There wasn't any one particular person's philosophy but it was, if you lived right, if you do right, if you 20:00treat other people right, it's going to come back to you. Part of the [?] guilt, that if you do wrong you will be punished. So it might have come out of that kind of thing but I think everybody just spoke from their heart and not from any particular philosophy and it wasn't even a lot of the Bible, you know, reading and explaining the Bible or other things, it was just living, how to live and living right, you know, it's the same kind of thing. That's what I remember.

KC:Yeah.

EL:I remember, I even remember my father talking, telling the girls, you know, the way you carry yourself is the way the men are going to respect you and don't be a dish rag for any man, you know. And those are the kinds of things we remember. Plus Dad had certain verses that he used to repeat over and over to his students. Remember from time to time, we'd go see them, you know, they used to say not only from the Bible, but like the [?] when get something in your 21:00head, you know, your brain, it's the most important thing. A lot of it, and even though it was in a religious setting and it may have been a church service, we were talking about religion as a part of our life and education and being somebody. And being respected, you know, and that kind of thing.

KC:When you were there as a student the real emphasis of the institute [was to] teach you how to live and to make you able to live.

EL:Yeah. Coping, living morally, being able to live with yourself, releasing yourself from a lot of guilty feelings [?] for later on in life, that kind of thing.

KC:What do you recall most about your four years at Lincoln Institute? It was probably the usual high school education, you got basic skills, of course --

EL:Right. But I think, see, Lincoln was a family; you felt like all the teachers were part of a family. The thing was, they worked hard with us during school but also after school, like, we had a lot of activities. I was in a lot of activities. You probably see the trophy over there, that's "Best All-around Girl."

KC:Oh yeah. Best all-around girl.

EL:I was a cheerleader; I was president of organizations; I was on the honor roll; I worked in the cafeteria. I wanted to be a part, and I think this is another thing that the faculty did, they would come out and they would be a part and they would work with us and do things with us. They had a lot of clout with organizations and things like that. So I think that, what I was really trying to 23:00do, I don't know whether I was doing it for myself or whether I was really doing it for my parents -- I felt like maybe I had to do it because both my parents were on the faculty there, but I felt like I had to be the best and I to really be an example. Whitney felt pressure from the boys because, you know, they wanted him to be a regular fellow, and I know sometimes --

KC:He couldn't be, though.

EL:-- yeah. You know, he just couldn't be, and whenever he tried it, once he did and when he walked into Greer Hall which is that main building, dad caught him next door and he said, "Young man, if you ever do that again you can expect to be expelled." And he sent him back home across the campus. But anyway, he treated us the same as he treated the other students, you know. And it scared Whitney to death. He never wanted to be called into the office, into Dad's 24:00office, because most of them were being called into his office for punishment.

KC:He was a strict man?

EL:He was very strict.

KC:But fair, I'm sure.

EL:Yes. Extremely fair but his strictness was kind of like to me -- as I see, you could put a police car out there on the highway and there doesn't have to be anybody in there; it's just the [idea]. And so the thing with most students is, "Let's do right, because we don't want to go into his office." You know, you don't want him. And the way he used to punish sometimes was through talking, but he can make you feel like, you know, what you've done was so horrible that, you know, and that's the way he sometimes punished us, that, you know, I would sit up and boo-hoo and cry -- I'd rather that he had whipped me than talked to me because he was able to make me feel so terrible about what I had done. But they used to say that when Dad wore a black tie everybody get out of the way, because 25:00it was his day so, better to walk a straight line. But we needed that kind, we needed someone there on campus because if you think about it, you have all these teenagers there for twenty-four hours a day, you know, for twelve months. They were parents and everything and that's why I think most of the students went on, up to ninety-five percent of the students went on to really be outstanding and have always, and when we had the reunion here last year they [?] to talk about how outstanding Lincoln Institute students were, and that they wished that there was a [place?] today that they could send their kids to. But there's no school in the whole country like Lincoln Institute. And I think it was that family attitude of togetherness, knowing that everybody cared, even the cooks cared about us; they would stop us if we were doing something wrong and they would tell us we were doing wrong. The janitors -- and Dad used to say, "The janitor is just as important, the cook is just as important as anybody else on this campus." And so that's the way he kept his family, the faculty family together, 26:00because we are all responsible for the school. But I had a great life at Lincoln Institute and I don't think I could have had a better life any place else, and I don't think that anyone that ever went to Lincoln Institute would have changed places with any other school in the country.

KC:Was there then that academic kind of emphasis as well as, oh, I don't know, an emphasis on trade skills and things that would earn one a living?

EL:Yeah. We -- yes, there was definitely the academics because there was a desire for a [tape goes blank] [?] so I think that's the kind of thing that made 27:00Lincoln Institute, you know, really made Lincoln Institute. When it closed, Life magazine wrote up a little article about Lincoln Institute and so forth. But if you could have only heard all the alumni that came back here for our reunion. The talk about Lincoln Institute -- they believed that people really cared about the school and it was just --

KC:Did the people around the Institute finally become accustomed to the idea of its being there and --?

EL:Oh yeah. Finally, they became some of the, the best friends that Lincoln had. And I think a large part of that is due to both my father and my mother, the respect that they had for Dad; they respected Dad as a man because my dad was not the kind even back then, to bow down; he was not an "Uncle Tom." He stood 28:00tall and he talked straight, you know, and people had to accept it and respect him for that. My mother was a very kind woman, and did a lot for the community, white and black community. Like she'd have all of us going up to the hospital and the old folks home, singing carols and carrying baskets, you know, she just had us doing that kind of thing and it didn't make any difference whether the family was black or white or if the hospital was black or white. So I think it had something to do with the relationship with the community. In fact, you know, they were really glad, too -- later, we were spending so much money, that we almost kept the banks open.

KC:That was one of the arguments that a number of people put forth when there was the Holland Bill and -- all the trouble over it, that would bring money into the local economy.

EL:Right. And it did, it really did. But I think it was past money, you know.

KC:Oh, sure.

EL:I think it was really dependent on the relationship. I remember when they closed the school and Dad wrote to the legislator, who probably was only 29:00partially responsible for putting forth the bill, claiming that [?], the Lincoln school, that it was too expensive. But -- and then the guy came to Dad and he didn't know that he still was living here in Louisville, he had retired at this time. That he never would have put forth the bill if he had known that he was still here. But said that a lot of the feeling of the people had about my parents and of course the relationship that they had with them, and the rest of the faculty.

KC:You went on then to Kentucky State and so did your brother; what can you say 30:00about the transition from Lincoln Institute to Kentucky State?

EL:The main thing -- I think we carried a lot of Lincoln Institute with us to Kentucky State. When we got there we started the family idea that Lincoln had; we started the students thinking about the college, what you could do for your university or the college, instead of so much what can the college can do for us. Now I'm not trying to be like Kennedy, but at Lincoln the students used to work to buy things for the school, put sidewalks down, we wanted to do things for Lincoln to make Lincoln better. When we got to college we started some students raising money to do whatever, because they needed to fill in, you know, for whatever they needed, in leaving money, the graduating class leaving money to the school and things like that.

I remember starting a co-op there [?] as a public service, the student co-op. 31:00And the students [?], we ran the co-op, you know, and then the students that shared in the co-op -- so I tried to, I think I tried to bring the togetherness that we had at Lincoln; I tried to carry it on at Kentucky State and again, I guess, the leadership that we had, that I had at Lincoln carried through to Kentucky State because there again, I was president of an organization and I helped to start the [Dramiturge?] Club and different organizations. I worked my full four years because at that particular time I think my mother and father probably both weren't making more than $90 a month and they had three of us in college.

KC:All at Kentucky State?

EL:All at Kentucky State. And so Whitney worked with the athletic department 32:00which, Kean at that time --

[END OF TAPE 646, SIDE ONE]

[BEGINNING OF TAPE 646, SIDE TWO]

EL:-- he was so short, in those days, men had knickers, pants -- if you remember what those were -- but he stood so short he wasn't tall enough to be on the basketball team, big enough to be on the football team. But the coach knew how crazy he was about the sport and carried him with them, you know, a [?] but always dressing and if ever he got a chance to let him play, if the scores were high enough, he always let him play.

KC:Oh, really?

EL:Yeah. But anyway, that was the way Whitney paid his way through college and I paid my way by working in the library. My sister was not very well and she didn't work, Mother and Dad paid for her.

But Whitney was quite a leader; there again, in organizations and of his class and, he was just a known, born leader and when he came out to Kentucky State, I 33:00think he thought he was freer there because Dad was not there, [they did not know?] his parents there. But he had also a very winning personality and his leadership, I think, really started there, where I think mine really started at Lincoln Institute and then carried over. But I think his really started coming out at Kentucky State. And I [?] in home economics and this major was [very strong?] because they had the [?]. But she didn't participate quite as much as I did [?] could have participated more.

KC:Um, you took your degree in English?

EL:Yeah, and business and sociology were my two minors. And as I said, I worked in the library my whole four years there and the librarian, of course, encouraged me to go into library science; although, at that time, I felt like I 34:00wanted go into social work. But Atlanta University, they offered me a scholarship in library science and needing the money that was needed to -- I mean, giving it to students who needed money. So I took the scholarship at Atlanta University and went over there and also worked my way all the way through. I worked in Chicago during the summers, I always worked two jobs. My night job was from 11:00 at night until 7:00 in the morning and my second job was 9:00 and I worked until 4:00 and that way I could pay for my clothing and [?] part of my tuition.

KC:What did you do there in Chicago?

EL:I worked at Eastman Kodak photographing [?] and then I worked in a grocery store, I was a cashier in a grocery store. [--?...] And then I finished Atlanta University in library science and from there I went on to [?] University -- 35:00[sound of plane flying overhead intrudes]

KC:As a librarian?

EL:-- as a librarian.

KC:You had your master's, MLS?

EL:No, at that time they didn't give masters. They gave -- which was -- but I really had two bachelors but thirty hours above my bachelor's, which would now be a master's, you know, a BLS in library science.

KC:What was your brother doing at this time?

EL:He went into the Army --

KC:That's right. During the Second World War.

EL:-- during the Second World War. Interestingly enough, he was in the same places in the Second World War that my father went to in the First World War.

KC:Is that right? Your dad was in the First World War?

EL:Yeah. And every place that Dad had gone, Whitney had been to, they had been to both places. And other, well, that experience particularly, I guess, began his second shot of leadership came around because when he went into the Army, he took pre-med in college and he was going to be a medical doctor. And I had a 36:00very good friend of the family that was going to put him through medical school and had a hospital [?] ready for him when he got out. So that was his desire, his career, but when he got into the Army he found out that so many wrong things were happening as far as race relations was concerned. And that's when he really found out that he was a good negotiator. And he started negotiating for race relations, for the black soldiers, and for workers and they had more privileges and so forth and were respected more. He realized maybe that that was his calling.

KC:Yeah. From what I read about your brother, it seems as if he had a great deal of difficulty trying to get into medical school at say, University of Kentucky, and then he applied to another medical school, didn't get into either of them. 37:00At UK, of course, there was this proscription, blacks could not be admitted to graduate education in any Kentucky university or college.

EL:Right. I couldn't go to any black school, I mean any white university, when I finished Kentucky State College, neither could Whitney.

KC:Was he bitter about that? Or not bitter, but bothered?

EL:No. You had your feelings, you know: "Why shouldn't I be able to go to my own state university?" But when they asked him back to be the commencement speaker at the University of Kentucky, that's when he told him about it, so I guess he had thought it all those years --

KC:I think I would really tell them about it.

EL:-- but he told them, he thanked them, he said, "I thank you for not allowing me go to University of Kentucky because I wouldn't have had the opportunity to go to Harvard."

KC:Yeah!

EL:So -- and then, interestingly enough after that I think he had his honorary doctorate, but prior to my father's death, the University of Kentucky gave him 38:00an honorary doctorate, too. I don't know whether or not that made up for all those years --

KC:Yeah, yeah.

EL:-- of his feelings and so forth.

KC:But he did work, in the service, he did work to improve things for black soldiers.

EL:For black soldiers, yeah. To improve the black soldiers' lot because they were the ones doing you know [?].

KC:He served in Europe?

EL:Yes.

KC:Was he there four years or, how long was he in the service?

EL:I think it was either three or four years. When he came back, Arnita and I were both at Atlanta University in school, and he went to Minnesota, University of Minnesota -- his wife was there, too, and she was getting her master's and so he decided to get his master's in social work at the University of Minnesota. Prior to [?] going into the Army, I think he taught another year of [?] at Madisonville, Kentucky, [?] and then after that, well, from school, after he got 39:00his master's, to working there in Minnesota, and then he went to Nebraska after that to join the Urban League. Prior to his becoming head of the Urban League, it was during that time, somewhere in the time, he was the head of the school of social work at Atlanta University.

KC:Uh-hmm, I remember that.

EL:And it really was at that time when Harvard picked up on him and they gave him money to go to Harvard and just to be in a think tank for a whole year and they paid him full salary, his wife [?] and everything, [?] think tank.

KC:Working mainly on race relations -- or what kinds of things were they 40:00thinking about?

EL:Well, yeah -- well, I really can't tell you all of it but I know that there were a lot of men supposed to have had, basically something, outstanding grades or something, and to hear different people's viewpoints and why they come up with these kinds of thoughts, you know, and what are the solutions. What would be your solution to this problem. Well, they pulled problems out, and I'm sure they had men from all walks of life with different experiences and so forth and I guess his, after being in the Army and after being head of the school of social work, and being black, they figured that they needed to find out what he was thinking about.

KC:He was president of the Urban League from '61 until -- was it '61? You don't --

EL:We don't --

KC:-- your dates. And during that time -- '61 to '71 -- during that time he kind of changed the emphasis. I remember reading, from just providing, oh, things for blacks to giving them, to getting job training programs and all that practical --

EL:Right.

KC:-- and I'm wondering, it almost seems as if that the Lincoln Institute education begins to come out here.

EL:Uh-hmm. Yeah, I'm sure it does and I'm sure this is why it was social work and -- my sister's in social work --

KC:Right.

EL:-- and [?] teach. But, you know, I kind of got as close to social work [?] with this thing of working and helping people [?] tremendously from our parents, this thing, going to try to help everyone make their lives better. So the Urban 42:00League was better housing, better jobs, you know, and better health, was a big help and street car academies. And picking up people where they are and going to them. Getting the jobs down there rather than [?] and so forth. So, and as you know, he pleaded for the Marshall Plan for --

KC:Yeah, for blacks.

EL:-- and [?] coming back that would be equal or halfway so we had to come back. But his [?] was to make it a better world for blacks but also, he was also interested in making a better world for poor whites. But he also knew and had 43:00sense enough to know that unless there's a better world for blacks that it couldn't be a better world for anyone, now. We were going to have to be together, live together, helping each other, you know. I used to [?].

KC:And he was criticized pretty strongly by a lot of blacks, more militant blacks -- or militant blacks -- there were a lot of charges leveled at him. What do you recall of that?

EL:It was because he would go out in the streets. I mean, he would march with Martin Luther King and Martin Luther King wanted his support, and felt like his support-- But that was really not what his thing; his thing -- what he was good at was negotiating. Sitting down with big business and saying, "Hey, you do not have blacks in your establishment, in your business or organization. You've got to start hiring blacks. You've got to train them, you've got to put them in managerial positions and all," and "how about starting now?" "Make a 44:00commitment." He was good at that. And we had these kinds of jobs set up to do job training. Like, right now, I'm going to need four million dollars and I can't afford that, I'm going to give you a million dollars and you know, like, "Do with it, the training or whatever you want," you know, that kind of thing. So I think what -- Whitney was the quiet type, what he did he did it at the place that needed talent, you know. I think we needed all the organizations --

KC:You needed the Dr. Kings and you needed the Whitney Youngs.

EL:-- we need the Dr. Kings, we needed the Youngs; we also needed -- what was the other group that was even more militant?

KC:The Panthers?

EL:Yeah, we needed the Black Panthers because one thing about the Black Panthers, when they would come out and do their thing, the people who stood back and did nothing were ready to really donate to the citizens [?], the Urban League and the NAACP, the moderates. So they started pouring money into the Urban League -- and into the Christian pastors, that King had, and the NAACP 45:00because they didn't want the Panthers and they wanted to keep these other more militant groups out. So at that time we needed all of the groups, you know. But again, everybody had a place and I think Whitney knew that it was right, he knew that he could talk to people; he was a persuader, a [?]. And he knew that's where he belonged. I asked him, I would say, you know, "This is what, a black thing, that you're not militant enough and blah, blah, blah; does it bother you?" and he said, "No, this does not bother me at all." He said, "Because, I know within myself what I am doing for blacks is going to pay off in the end more than anybody or any group anywhere." And he said, "I'm not out to praise myself or to get pretty, I'm out to help people."

KC:Do you think though, that when things began, bad things began to happen in Detroit and in Watts and around, that he began to despair some, of the race relations in this country? What was happening?

EL:I'm sure. All of us did, you know. I mean things went on in my head that had never gone on before either when I was [?].

KC:Do you think everybody, both black and white, were beginning to think, "We're running out of time?"

EL:Yeah. Definitely.

KC:Because that's when the militancy really began.

EL:Yeah. And it's kind of like you put up with this for so long, we're tired, we can't. We really can't keep on any longer, you know. You are really exhausted, our energy, you know. And those like Whitney, those were the kinds of people who were trying to do it the peaceful way and said, "Here, give these people something, if they have something to lose then they won't be out there 47:00fighting." But, you know, you might as well, you can kill, you can do anything, if you don't have anything to lose because, you know, if you don't have anything to eat, you don't have any place to go anyway so jail is as good as anything. But if you own something, if you've got a good job, you don't want to lose your job, you don't want to lose your home. So give them something to lose and then we won't have all that. But it seemed like all the stuff he was saying, you know, the people weren't listening. And, yeah, he felt like, well, you know, I don't know which is best. And I'm sure there must have been some frustration at that time. Maybe they were right, I don't know, you know, I still keep my own thoughts about the whole thing, whatever my feelings are, the way that I'm going to do it, because I'm not sure that other people aren't doing the best thing because then I listened and he said that, he would say that to people when he was speaking to audiences, you know, he would say that to them: "Either you're going to have to meet with me or you're going to have to meet with those out there in the streets with fire, you know, and bombs, and we don't want it that way. Which way do you want to go? Which way does America want to go?"

KC:Did he find -- I'm sure he found a good number of corporate heads and business people responsive to his plea, his argument for job training or whatever.

EL:Oh, very definitely. And it was happening. And [?] from way back in the Urban League, the [?]. The philosophy of the Urban League was to keep quiet and it was kind of like the philosophy of business, you know, "We will take on a certain number of blacks and we will put them in management, but let's don't tell anybody, let's don't upset the whites, let's don't let anybody know that they're doing that." It was happening, but -- and this is why black people didn't know all the many things that the Urban League was doing -- it was going on quietly because he felt like, "Okay, I don't care how quiet, you don't have to announce 49:00but keep taking more and more on," was his thing, you know. And so that's the way it was, you know, the truth just didn't come out to all the people, but there were a lot of organizations that they were doing, a lot of philanthropies that were giving, like Rockefeller. They were really coming across with a lot of money. And Philip Morris and other places started opening -- and GE, you know, we had a tremendous relationship, and they started opening up, you know. But the blacks in the streets didn't know this and it wasn't happening fast enough --

KC:They were impatient.

EL:-- they were impatient, and they were tired and [?].

KC:When your brother died in 1971, I read that someone wrote that at his death he, or just before his death -- and this is a quote, almost, I think -- "He seemed to be discouraged and disillusioned." Do you think that was true?

EL:Not completely. No. I think that his disillusionment came from the fact that he would liked to have seen more of things happening as far as jobs and better housing. He would probably have liked for that to have been the big thing that came out rather than the riots and so forth. And that's a contribution that he wanted to make, you know, for that to happen and, of course, he saw the other, you know, the riots and things and, you know, I don't know whether he thought, "Well, with all that I tried to do, with all these things, you know, what is going to really happen to America? Are we going to have the fighting thing, if 51:00so, I have no space there, and what will I do then?"

KC:Yeah. You were in Louisville, I guess at the University of Louisville, during the early '60s, middle '60s, when a lot was happening here in the way of public accommodations laws or ordinances and also open housing was a big issue, people were marching in the streets, literally. Were you involved in any of that? What do you remember about that whole period?

EL:When I came to the University in 1966, I was here on a GE fellowship that summer, and Dean Huffman knew that I had settled a little argument that was going on between the GE fellows that were here and I had kind of smoothed it over, and then the people had stayed, and you know, kind of calmed down and so forth. And he called me in his office and he said, "If you can do this, you're 52:00the kind of person I need around here. How would you like to come and be assistant dean?" So I told him I was, I wanted to stay at Lincoln, Dad was finishing out his last period. Well I guess I possibly was the only other full-time black to come to the university; I know I was the first black administrator at U of L. I think besides Dr. Parrish there was no other full-time black here. And what started happening to me, is that the black students were coming to me from all the other schools and everything, you know, and telling me their problems and, you know, all these things. Well, I, too, was the kind of person that Whitney was, I would say, "Let's sit down and organize, seemed the proper way to do it." I wasn't really an aggressive type of person, I was not a militant type person. And taking over buildings was not my thing.

KC:And black students did that, in '71?

EL:They did that the year that I went off to get my doctorate, they didn't do it that year, they sat down with me and started working on a plan, of things that we wanted to ask for, things that we wanted to get and I said, "Let's try that first." And they said, "Okay." And so that whole year that I was here that was the kind of thing that we were doing and it just didn't work. And the moment I left, when I left, all -- the next thing I heard about, the students had taken over the building and they [?]. And then, you know, I guess I, too, said, well, I guess I was kind of disillusioned that the way that I wanted it taken was not working. And maybe after all this was the only way. But I was kind of glad that I wasn't here because I could never have been against the black students. As one person, I couldn't have fought the whole white faculty, the university, so I 54:00didn't, I probably would have been a frustrated faculty member here.

KC:Caught in between.

EL:Caught in between. When I came back they were sending, the students had been sent home and then they sent me to a meeting and this was to decide whether or not the students could come back.

KC:Now were you still assistant to the dean?

EL:Still assistant to the dean at that time. And I remember one called Blaine Hudson, he was really [?] and black students here. Our students, I would say, are black and white, but he was happy to find black -- here at the University of Louisville, [?] not University of Kentucky [?]. And Blaine, was kind of, he was a negotiator, you know, like he was not the one up there who was taking over but he negotiated a lot of things with the school. Students trusted him. And Blaine was one of the ones [?]. And I was happy I was back at this time to be able to help Blaine get back in [?] and to help, try and help the faculty to understand why these students had to do what they did.

KC:What was the, what were some of the contentions or some of the problems with what the University was doing or not doing? What was at issue --?

EL:No black faculty, or few black faculty, hardly any black faculty, no administrative faculty because I was the only one. And only two full-time black faculty members. So few black students -- they were not doing any recruiting. They had been -- and I knew this -- they had been keeping students out because of test scores and things that, you know. Most schools by this time had started saying, "Okay, we will look at other things than test scores; we've heard that 56:00these tests are biased." [?] U of L had not started doing that and had not really come to grips -- and they didn't have a commitment really, U of L did not have a commitment at that time for black students or not even, I don't even think for the community, because I had thought and so many people, so many black people had thought that U of L was just independent, or private, or [?] municipal college. It was almost like it was trying to be in a league with Harvard or something, you know, and only certain people could [gain admission?] and that kind of thing. So I felt that they wanted to keep blacks out of here, they didn't really make a commitment, you know. And they weren't giving scholarships and there was no support service at all for black students.

KC:No office of minority? [Talking at same time]

EL:Nothing like that. You know, not any of the support services office, student 57:00personnel office; no blacks, nothing. So I knew down in my heart that this was the only thing that could change U of L; that was [fight, scare tactics?]. [?] Although that's not the way I wanted it to be but I know now that's the way it had to be. Because immediately after that, things started changing, started opening up minority affairs programs and so forth. Bringing black faculty to the campus, giving scholarships to black students, sending out recruiters, I even went out and started recruiting to get black students here. And so I was really frustrated during the time, you know, because I just really felt caught in between and so alone. I was fighting, you know, and not getting results, and--

KC:Are you pleased now, though, with what's happened?

EL:Well, I think a lot of improvements were made during the time, but honestly I feel that they were going backwards [tape turns off, then resumes]. For the students to be able to, if they wanted to go to college, would they be qualified to go to college. However, each student had to take a trade, so I took home economics and -- it doesn't [thrill?] girls too much now -- but at that time I really tried hard and I even got an home economics award. You had to take cooking, you had to take sewing, the boys either have to take engineering, carpentry, or agriculture. And the boys in agriculture had to have a project; it 59:00could be a pig, it could be a horse, or colt or whatever but they would have to raise that particular animal and feed it and raise it and then after it was grown they could sell it and the money would be theirs, so that was an incentive. So a lot of boys went into agriculture for that reason.

KC:But you did do the English, math and --

EL:English, math --

KC:So how was the curriculum divided up, how do you recall that? Did you take home economics straight through the four years or did you do the --

EL:Yes.

KC:-- okay.

EL:I took home economics straight through the four years but I was also able to get -- you had to take a science, a natural science and that would be your -- I remember biology and chemistry, taking those two courses, and physics. I remember taking math, we had general math and I remember taking algebra, and geometry and trig. We had four years of English. Of course, we were set up like 60:00the state, the state required four units of English and two years of science and two years of math, and we had to take health and P. E. and those were required for the whole four years. And we had choices -- oh, we had to take history or some type of social studies, also -- but we did have other choices, electives in foreign languages and so we did take foreign languages, but we had some electives that we could take [?].

KC:Were the classes large, generally?

EL:Yeah, well, no larger than they are now; I'd say around twenty, twenty-five.

KC:That's small.

EL:Yeah, right now, when you think about it. We did have a number of students from out of state but they paid a large tuition and that was in order to cut 61:00down on out-of-state students because they could fill the place with out-of-state students, kids from New York and California and Ohio and --

KC:Wealthy children.

EL:-- the children of wealthy parents wanted to send their kids there and if you had teenagers, high school students, now I'm getting into that part I can see where I would be looking for an excellent school to send my teenager. Especially girls, I remember the teachers from Kentucky State College and all the colleges used to send their children there and they would come there, they would be there all week in the dormitories and they'd go home for the weekend, those that they lived close by and the parents would bring them back on Sunday afternoon and they said, "What a relief to get them back here," They knew that their kids were 62:00safe, because that was one thing that was practiced by the faculty. When I became a faculty member I remember walking that campus at 12:00 at night and if a car from Louisville pulled in on the campus, I'd give them five minutes to get off the campus. I think I'd be a little afraid to do that today. But I cared that much about the kids because nobody's going to touch these girls and you wanted to, I guess, to keep them pure, virginal, and we had, we are very fortunate because our girls didn't get pregnant, 'cause I think all this time [?]. At the time that I was going there I had never even heard of drugs, you know. As long as I was there and even when I was teaching there in 1966, I didn't know of any problems that we were having in other schools. And the thing that we did have over the kids, the one thing, we could send the kids back home. But my father always said, "Sending them back there, to that same environment that they came out of is not helping them, so what we must do is to try to keep 63:00them here" -- if he found a boy who would steal, would break into something, he'd said, "Okay." [?] kids were in engineering, we teach them how to [?] useful, so he just wanted to hurt, their negative behavior and make it positive and useful to them. So we tried to hold onto kids. But, if he said, "If you ever do that again, you're going to get sent home." Or if he said "I'm thinking of sending you --" "Please, please do anything to us but just don't send us home." But I think, you know, we had such a beautiful environment, wonderful environment that it just lovely [?] country [?]

[END TAPE 646, SIDE TWO]

[BEGINNING TAPE 647, SIDE ONE]

EL:--have now a real commitment to get black athletes, the faculty in all of the departments of this university and all the students of this university. Because 64:00I certainly feel that there are blacks out there who are qualified; it may be true that they don't have the money but they can get some of it through [?] but I have been on selected committees where we have had black talent and it has just bothered me so when they would compare a guy who was black and had all the qualifications that was needed for the job, you know, top qualifications, but then they would say, but they always would find something else that the white guy had. And even in the School of Education, I think probably they're doing better than a lot, most of the schools, but our department -- that's right, we 65:00do have two blacks -- but there are still a lot of departments, in the School of Education, they don't have black faculty members. How are you going to be in education and out there teaching black and white kids and supposed to be leaders in human relations and so forth if you don't even have a black person on the faculty to talk to, to find out what they're feeling, you know? And I know what's happening in this department by having two black faculty here, I can see the changes in the white faculty simply by us being here to communicate with each other, and by them getting to know us, you know, it makes a difference. So I feel that the other schools are missing something, the other departments are missing something, and I think the other schools have not done their part at all 66:00in getting black students or in getting black faculty. I'm disappointed with it.

KC:How do you think the Bakke decision is going to affect this university, particularly the professional schools, since race can be only one, as I understand it, one factor in the overall evaluation of every student being admitted?

EL:The Bakke decision will only affect the university [?] to use it as a crutch.

KC:Yeah.

EL:And if you're going to have commitment to having black students, with or without Bakke, it wouldn't matter. It's just another crutch; if they didn't have that crutch, they'd find another one. So we don't have a quota system in the medical school, but I don't know how much pre-training they have done, or are 67:00willing to do, to bring blacks to the point where they could [?] into medical school. As far as Bakke's concerned, that doesn't bother me, because it has to be within the hearts of men to make this world, the University of Louisville, any different. And it has to come from the top, you know, like I feel like it has to come from within.

KC:You can't legislate fairness, then, or equality.

EL:But, you see, I think when we hire people, when we hire administrators, we ought to be sure that we're hiring administrators that have that kind of insight 68:00-- racial insight -- and have that kind of commitment and then when they, in turn, when the deans are hired they have to have that, and until they start hiring black faculty, you know -- it comes all the way down, you know, and I don't think we would have a problem of getting black students --

KC:There seems to be though some commitment, at least I don't know how much on the part of the university, to admit blacks as well as whites and to give those students who, unfortunately, seem to be many blacks, the skills necessary to make it, shall we say, in college. I know there's the Learning Center; there's something over there in the Humanities building -- not Humanities, Strickler -- 69:00and there seems to be the support services that you spoke of earlier, they seem to be available.

EL:Yeah.

KC:Does that --

EL:The Learning Center has been started, we have the WLEP -- the [?] project -- [train horn blowing]. They gave us money to have that program and it all went very good, excellent and, you know, I certainly have nothing to say against President Miller, top administrators as far as I'm concerned, you know, I can only speak for me, because they have been extremely fair to me. I can't say the same for my past students, but the top administrators -- I think that President Miller really wants to see things happen here, but he's very [train horn blowing] -- if you bring him a program, he says, "This is a good, viable program 70:00and this is going to help" -- I think that, you know, he's going to accept that and he's going to push it so it gets through. So to have all the deans thinking this way, like the engineering school, you know, I think they're trying to begin to have... I know that a few years ago they hired a black woman over there, as a recruiter, and I understand that they do have some classes now, skill classes and so forth and that they are letting them in on probation and this type of stuff. Instead of just plain old, "No, you don't have the scores, you don't have the grade point average, blah, blah, blah." They are saying, "Let's look at what you don't have and see if we can get it to you." I think that this is happening but I still feel that we still have too much of a revolving door. Now this may not be the fault of the university; we've got too many blacks who are entering and are flunking out. We've always had flunk out courses here, as you probably 71:00will know. 100 English is a good example.

KC:Yeah, yeah.

EL:But how can we keep these students here? I think we've got to be, number one thing that we do need, in the administration, we need a black top administrator, vice president; we do not have one. And I think that that's very important because he sits with all the other vice presidents and he talks directly to the president. Then I think blacks would feel that they do have a voice.

KC:A share in --

EL:Yeah. And if I can think of any way of helping to keep these students here, I 72:00would like to be able to do it, but a black vice president [?]. This is what I think is happening to black students. Now, you get with the people [?] and then you present this to the president.

KC:As an educator what do you think is wrong with the high schools? Why do we have blacks -- well, let's not limit it to one race -- but why do we have students entering this university, many of whom don't have skills necessary to make it out of this university? And it's not only a matter of black and white but it seems to be a lot of kids.

EL:Yeah, this is true. But when you think back about what was happening in the black elementary schools and high schools, the black public elementary schools, I don't think they had a new book in that school; they were given all the old, beat up books. They didn't have any equipment in the schools. You know, I don't 73:00think they even saw a television program [?] that they were having at that time [?] television faculty [?] didn't -- she was in the third grade at that time and she didn't even have a science book or know what science was as far as the school was concerned. So I think -- I have nothing to say against the black teachers because I am sure that they worked with what they had and did the very best they could with the limited resources that they had. I think that the whole school system, this is black and white, just needs to be kind of a whole, overhauling of the educational system here in Louisville and in Kentucky 74:00altogether, but especially here in Louisville. You see, I can't see why kids cannot be taught to read in the first grade; none of my kids in the class or in private school -- my son is in first grade in a private school and you know, the things that he's bringing home and he's reading. I think one thing, that the classes are much too big. David brings home papers, all kinds of papers for homework and so forth. I have to check them. He is encouraged -- that the Big Apple and everything, he's inspired; the kids can go out and not only read about them but see it, you know, because it's not that difficult [?]. The same thing is true with my daughter. She's at Sacred Heart, both of them are. And they're 75:00getting a good education. Now I'm not saying that those teachers are any smarter or know how to teach any better than the teachers in the public schools; so what is wrong? This is it: The classes are too large and I think that's number one. Is it that the teachers feel unworthy or really not prestigious enough --

KC:Unimportant?

EL:Unimportant. They feel unimportant. Is it that they do not get the kind of praise and support that they should get? Who's responsible for this? Who's responsible for class sizes? Who's responsible for the class laboratories and 76:00them having or not having certain things that they should have? Are the principals doing what they should do? Are the principals picked on the basis of qualification and capability instead of who you know or who [?]? Are they giving the teachers what they need to have and to feel inspired, you know, of supporting their work and so forth? Are the teachers -- it doesn't go on up to administration, then it should go on the supervisory level, you know, on up to the superintendent, [?], you know. But you cannot tell me that we can spend all this money on highways and on sending people to the moon and stuff, but we can't teach people how to read. And that's what bothers me because I think sometimes I become paranoid and wonder if we really want people to [?] and to read.

KC:And they're far more sophisticated now than they ever were, learners. More 77:00audiovisual everything in classrooms and if you can't teach using all the latest equipment, then something's pretty wrong because, as you well know, you learned to read pretty well without cameras and television and all that.

EL:Right.

KC:I want to ask just two more questions, quick questions: you were principal and counselor at Lincoln Institute, the last principal at Lincoln Institute and I'm wondering if you'll just comment some on those years -- you were there from '64 until '66, I think. That must have been a very trying time; school was -- I guess it looked as if the school was beginning to go down the tubes, so to speak.

EL:Yes. You know, we had a sad feeling in our hearts that the school was going to close because this was after desegregation of the schools and what really happened was that when they desegregated the schools they gave the students a choice: "Okay, you can go, you won't have a black high school in this place, but you can either go to Lincoln and we'll still pay your ADA for Lincoln or you can go to the white school." And the students chose Lincoln Institute and our enrollment went clear up. And then, I think, when they set down and they looked at the town and how much money was going out of the town they started saying to the students, "You have no choice."

KC:Yeah, you must go to school here.

EL:You must go there. So with that, then our enrollment started dropping. But I feel that the only way these kids are going to ever have in Louisville, Kentucky and all over, equal education and equal opportunity, then they're going to have to go to school together from kindergarten all the way through the university, 79:00[?]. Because -- so I think that we have to sacrifice some of our wishes and our desires in order for the future of the kids, because, you know, I know that these kids are going to feel differently, they're going to respect each other as people. My son is a first grader and they grow all the way up, you know. And I can see a difference with my daughter, you know, and the other thing is to see that she is not isolated and she is not segregated and she is going and feeling about herself the same as anyone else. There's no difference between, she feels no difference between her and any of the white kids. You know, like her little friends come over for the weekend at my house, she goes to their house and, it's just that kind of thing. They don't have that inferior feeling and that one 80:00thing you have to get away from in all black people that they are inferior.

KC:But still, when kids were going to Lincoln Institute, black kids were going there, they were separate from whites but they, at least, in hearing you talk about the school, they didn't seem to feel inferior. You didn't feel inferior when you graduated, did you?

EL:No. That's why our kids did so much better than other kids in other schools, in other places, because they didn't -- they felt so good about themselves. They may not have been as smart as some other kids in other schools, but they believed they could do anything because we made them believe that, "You're as good as anyone else and you can do anything you want to do in this world." And that's what they believed and they went out and they did it. However, when they went home or even like the times they would come here to Louisville to a 81:00theater, or they'd go to Shelbyville, they'd have to go up in the crow's nest, they had to -- they'd see these signs --

KC:It was still there.

EL:-- black and white, it was there, you know, it was so obvious that we're different. So all that's gone now, but I think the other thing is that the closeness, the constant communication going on in the schools with the kids, because I just believe a lot of this [?] that that's going to help the problem, number one. But the biggest thing is when they go to school together, they have the same equipment, and the same opportunities, they're hearing the same things going on, that that in time, by the time my kids grow up it's going to be a completely different race relationship; it will wear itself out, and just going through experiences that they are having. So I hated to see Lincoln close. I 82:00felt that I was carrying on as a good principal, I was giving all the same good feedback and all that good stuff that they needed. I would go out and if they said they couldn't get in a college, I would go to the college and I would speak with the president, "Give this kid a chance. Don't pay attention to his test scores, this kid can make it, I know this kid can make it." So you know, I felt good about that, I felt good every time a kid succeeded, and that was my goal to see that all of them succeeded. So I was carrying on the tradition of Lincoln Institute and I was the next [?] at the time and, of course, my father was president; we had president and a counselor. Another thing when he was getting older and I was trying to take all the responsibility, as much as possible, off of him, so I was doing my counseling, I would have been doing it anyway as principal. I would have been walking with them, [?] as much as possible. Sitting 83:00down with a group of kids, saying anybody who had problems can come to me. I would have been doing these things anyway so being counselor was no different. As principal I did have to punish and I was the disciplinarian and I hate to say it, but at that time we did have the paddle. But I would say, "Okay, what do you want? Do you want me to paddle you or do you want [?] and you go on home?" And they would say, you know, they'd rather take the paddling and [?]. I wouldn't do that today because kids are different today, they may turn around and knock me down. But I think had the rapport and I had the love and they knew I loved them and they knew every faculty member really loved them, really cared about them. And I think the most embarrassing thing for my father was the fact that a woman 84:00was going to [?] the school and the kids would [?] stand outside the door [?] so that was the worst part of it. But I felt that I carried on Dad's tradition, I carried on the spirit of the school. I was sad, very sad when we closed, but of course, we opened back up -- when Lincoln Institute closed [?].

KC:And that's still going?

EL:No, they closed that.

KC:But isn't there still some sort of --?

EL:They closed that because whites and blacks then began to go to schools together at Lincoln, it was the Lincoln School. And this, again -- the white community changed one more time; it was okay that we got the new school, it was fine, there was a black school there --

KC:Now they weren't ready for it.

EL:--but they weren't ready for white and black kids to be holding hands and [?] started walking across the campus and [?] holding hands. So they came up with the excuse and again, [?], they had the excuse that too much money was being 85:00used and it was quite a large amount of money. But there was no school in the country that would really want anything but talented and gifted school kids. And what a waste when they had so many talented kids. But it closed as the Lincoln school. When Whitney died, President Nixon came -- he knew of us and [?] -- and the governor met him and told him all about the Lincoln Institute and about that, about Whitney [?] and shortly after that, a few months after that, President Nixon sent for Dad to come to Washington. And he said, and he gave him a million dollars for the school to be opened back up. So it became, it was 86:00named after Whitney.

KC:Right.

EL:So it was Whitney M. Young Manpower Center, it stayed as the Manpower Center until last year, year before last when they decided they should start thinking about young ladies coming here, they need to come to the school. So they changed it to the Whitney M. Young Job Corps Center and that's what it is now. And it's growing and they're building a new building, there's a Whitney M. Young Memorial House out there, and well, you know, it's serving a good purpose.

KC:Then there's the Lincoln Foundation downtown.

EL:Yes. We had the Lincoln Foundation which was the endowment money from the Lincoln Institute and the government gave us the grounds to build the Lincoln 87:00Foundation so we own the Lincoln -- actually it's four hundred and some odd acres there now. But what we do at the Lincoln Foundation, we give our scholarships, a large number of scholarships. Dr. Samuel Robinson is the director of that now and he is working with [?] doing the foundation work, they're working with all organizations, reading fundamentals and all that and still carrying on the tradition of helping [?] blacks. And we have a number of students, different professional students here in Louisville that it's paying their way, and we're also -- they're all over the country. Money that was given for Whitney's death, money that was given for my mother's death, my father's death, we put all that money into a scholarship fund and it's perpetuated 88:00because these students come out, and after they've been out and gotten their [?] and so forth, we only ask that at a low interest [?] to pay it back whenever they can or however they can, you know, so that we can continue to give to other students [?].

KC:Yeah. I want to thank you for all your time; I've very much enjoyed this. It's been nice learning all these things. Thank you.

EL:Well, I've enjoyed being with you. I guess only one thing I didn't tell you, we didn't get to -- we went to Atlanta University, but I did get my doctorate at the University of Illinois in Champaign-Urbana, and that was really the last time my father was here and my brother was here and this was the year before he died. I was very, very pleased that the whole family was there and this was one time that Whitney said, when the people wanted to gather around him and so forth, he said, "No, this is my sister's thing."

KC:Is that right?

EL:Uh-huh. And they always pick one outstanding student, the president, to eat 89:00with the board on that day and I was picked out and my family and so we could eat with the board and, which was really quite an honor but being together that last time really meant a lot to me. The only other last thing that I have to say is that I never thought that it would probably happen at the University of Louisville, because at one time I couldn't go to school here and I certainly didn't think I could ever be working here, but in July I got my full professorship.

KC:And you're Professor of--

EL:Ed. Psych.

KC:Educational psychology. And you're teaching how many classes?

EL:I teach three classes.

KC:Mostly what?

EL:Practicums to students that are out in the field and I teach childhood [?] 90:00and next semester I'll be teaching theory -- we change our curriculum around but I do hope, I know this is the first for blacks in [?] but I hope that it will open the door, you know, one more time, and that it will be that there will be more black faculty going right on through in Kentucky with a lot less trouble than I had.

KC:Uh-hmm. Things are changing, perhaps.

EL:Uh-hmm.

KC:Thanks a lot.

EL:You're quite welcome.

[END OF TAPE 647, SIDE TWO]