Interview with Harold Berg, October 5, 1978

Ken Chumbley:

This is Ken Chumley, the University of Louisville, Louisville's Oral History Center. The date is October 5th, 1978 and I'm interviewing this afternoon Dr. Harold Berg, M.D. A surgeon in Louisville and also someone who's been very involved with the Jewish community and who is quite a mosaicist, I guess, or how would one?

Harold Berg:

That's correct.

K.C.:

Correct. And Dr. Berg if we might begin then with your parents, if you'll tell me a little, as much as you know about them.

H.B.:

Well my parents were both born in Russia and came to this country at the turn of the century. Both in a wave of immigration following the pogroms and the problems in Russia. They went to the lower east side business and then 1:00eventually moved to Brooklyn where they met each other. They met in Brooklyn. Both of them were fairly recent arrivals.

H.B.:

My father went to trade school and became a plumber. And my mother who had been working as a seamstress in the sweatshops became a wife and mother and they started life. They had four children. I was the third of four. They're both alive still, both in their upper 80's and-

K.C.:

Still in Brooklyn?

H.B.:

Still in Brooklyn. And as a matter of fact I spent, almost two weeks ago, I spent one evening talking to my father about his whole story of what happened in Russia and his immigration to the country and it was fascinating.

K.C.:

What did he tell you about the pogroms particularly? [crosstalk 00:02:10]

H.B.:

Well, I don't think he was really a victim of a pogrom per se, he himself. He never was physically injured by anybody. But of course the neighborhoods were and the area was and plus the fact there was great poverty there and there was just no real way to get ahead.

H.B.:

He was an orphan at a very early age and actually worked since he was the age of six, you know, different types of things. And I guess he was about 12 or 13 when he left and came to this country.

K.C.:

Must have been very expensive for him to get here.

H.B.:

No, he told me what it cost. I think it was $425, which included, they gave this 3:00to an agent, this money, and the agent was responsible for you from then on which included first getting you out of Russia. This was quite a thing into itself, and getting him into Germany and to Hamburg.

H.B.:

There, they had to go through the immigration offices, et cetera but all of this, apparently the agent took care of all of this. And then they got you on a boat, took you to New York where somebody received you and then once you got to Ellis Island you were on your own. But I think he said it was $425, is that what I said? Which of course was a lot of money then.

K.C.:

How did he ... did he just scrimp and save?

H.B.:

He worked for it, yeah he worked for it. He did all kinds of jobs. And everything from building construction, to carrying bricks and cleaning pigs and 4:00pig hairs to make brushes with and all of this series of things that he worked at. All pretty hard manual labor for a young kid. And without a family, it was a rough deal he had.

K.C.:

So in a sense he reared himself, since he had nobody.

H.B.:

Yeah, he himself. He had a brother that had preceded him to the States but his brother here was not earning a living and never did as a matter of fact. He was one of these broken men who were more interested in the books than they were in going out. He was a scholar and actually he was a bookbinder but he never made a living at it. And so he was in no position to send for his brother.

H.B.:

As a matter of fact even when his brother got here he was in no position to even take care of him. So once my father got here he again, managed kind of his own way.

K.C.:

How did his brother manage? You say as a bookbinder he didn't earn enough to support himself. Did he-

H.B.:

Hardly, hardly.

K.C.:

I guess he made enough to just get by?

H.B.:

Well he managed. Yeah, I guess he wasn't starving, but he just, he lived in poverty and he always at a minimal thing, level.

K.C.:

Is he still alive, your uncle I guess that would be?

H.B.:

No, no. He's been gone a long time now.

K.C.:

Yeah.

H.B.:

His sons are still around and my cousins, of course, and we're still very close. One of his sons happens to be somebody you probably know. Dave Berg who is an artist in MAD magazine.

K.C.:

I've heard the name.

H.B.:

Berg's Ideal? I read it and a lot of people think it's satire. But it's ...

K.C.:

Yeah. And so you grew up in Brooklyn.

H.B.:

I grew up through high school.

K.C.:

How many brothers and sisters did you have?

H.B.:

I had one brother and I have two sisters still alive. And I came to Louisville because my family doctor was a graduate of Louisville. And he told me, even from the very earliest age, if I really want to get into medical school... and getting into medical school then was pretty rough for a Jewish boy. That if I came down to Louisville as an undergraduate and got good grades and got myself known, that I would stand a better chance. And that's exactly what I did and I got good grades I needed and I got in.

K.C.:

I've heard that's not necessarily said only of Jewish people, but I've heard it said that that's still true, that if one came from say New Jersey to the University of Louisville and wanted to get into medical school, one had to go 7:00through undergraduate work there too. So evidently that-

H.B.:

It helps. I mean everything else being equal, if you have the same grades somebody else has, if they know you and you've been around and been able to perform under their knowledge and supervision, I guess you stand a better chance with the admissions committee.

H.B.:

But of course the Jewish problem getting into medical school now is hardly as great as it was. They sometimes have had as much as 25%, some of our classes in the last 10 or 15 years, of Jewish people, which is extremely high compared to my class that had three out of 90.

K.C.:

Did they intentionally discriminate?

H.B.:

Yeah, they had a quota system. Of course, they did. There was a quota system. I mean it wasn't hidden, it was a well known fact. Which is one of the reasons why 8:00Jewish people feel so strongly, a lot of them at least and I'm one of them, about quota systems. You know there's affirmative action and various other things that's almost the antithesis of what we've been fighting against all our lives.

H.B.:

And suddenly we're faced with the, well, the Bakke was one of those things too. That the quota system is something we fought and now we're asked to support it and that's hard for me to do that.

K.C.:

What was undergraduate education like? Did-

H.B.:

Out of UofL?

K.C.:

You lived in the dorm? Did they have dorms then?

H.B.:

They didn't have dorms then. I lived on, mostly on Third Street, right near the school with different boarding houses, and Confederate Place at one time. But mostly on Third Street.

H.B.:

Well, I found the UofL... of course I came at the age of 17 and I still... quite young.

K.C.:

When was this roughly?

H.B.:

This was in roughly 1935, '35.

K.C.:

So this was kind of toward the tail end of the Depression. Not really, no, sort of middle.

H.B.:

No, it was right in the middle, right in the middle. As a matter of fact, my father, who by this time had become a builder from a plumber, and in all honestly still continued to do his own plumbing but was a building contractor, had a coronary the first year I was in medical school.

H.B.:

And with the Depression, with his business going down the drain, he wanted me to drop out and come home and take over and I didn't want to. I held out and I didn't. And now, of course, now I realize I probably made a good decision because he eventually got well and was able to put things together again, but I almost didn't continue. It was a combination of the various things, there.

K.C.:

As an undergraduate did you work? Did you have jobs?

H.B.:

Yeah. I had one of the jobs, it was an interesting one, it was a WPA job. Working at the Playhouse down at the University cataloging the pictures that they had of... have you ever been in the Playhouse there?

K.C.:

They tore it down. They didn't tear it down, but they're going to.

H.B.:

They're going to, yeah. Well they had a collection of pictures of all sizes.

K.C.:

I've seen them.

H.B.:

Of great actors and actresses who had come to the original Macaulay Theater at one time or another and left these mementos. Some were signed and easy to identify. Others were unsigned and it took a lot of research figuring out who these people were and what dates they were. And there was another person and myself who had this job.

H.B.:

We did it for about a year and a half at 25 cents an hour. It was pretty good, it was fantastic money. That's one of the things I did. Oh, there's a lot of 11:00things. I sold shoes at Baker's down on Fourth Street. I had worked as a stagehand many summers up in the New York Theater District, the Pennsylvania District.

H.B.:

And I was a member of the stagehand union. So one of the real cushiony jobs I had when I came down here, when I presented myself to the stagehand union was to work with Memorial Auditorium for anything that came through. At $10 a night, I may have to just pull a curtain.

K.C.:

Ten dollars a night, that's pretty good.

H.B.:

That was a very good job. It was wonderful. I'll push a piano or sometime help to really set up sets when there was a real play that came through. But it could vary. It could be a real big evening or it could be nothing. And I, oh, I'd get a call maybe once every other week a so, which was very good. So I had that going for me too.

K.C.:

Did you come down on scholarship or?

H.B.:

No. No.

K.C.:

So you had to earn your way through and I guess- [crosstalk 00:12:05]

H.B.:

Well, my father supported me a lot. My summer jobs helped considerably.

K.C.:

Did you stay in Louisville or did you go back?

H.B.:

No, my summer jobs were all up in New York area. It was in... as a stagehand.

K.C.:

Oh, stagehand.

H.B.:

Yeah. And scenic design, not that I ever did designing, but I made sets, technically, painting, whatever had to be done. Which in a way, you know, well, background of my father being in the crafts and I learned to use tools at a very early age.

H.B.:

With that kind of a job as a background, mosaics came very easy to me because it's all craft work. And it takes more than just putting the tiles down. You have to cut the boards, you have to measure this, you have to do that. So there's a lot of carpentry involved in it, So fortunately I had all of this good background to help with that.

K.C.:

When you moved here you said you were living on Third Street and around in that area. Most of, well, the Jewish community, as I understand it, was kind of over that way.

H.B.:

And on Madison Street.

K.C.:

And there you were up there, 17 years old in a city that you didn't know and I'm wondering what that was like for you psychologically and emotionally?

H.B.:

Well, there were other Jewish kids on the campus who were very friendly, number one. They're on Second Street there, and as I recall on First Street, up near the university there was also a community of Jewish people.

H.B.:

And I remember there was one place, Horowitz, he's a lawyer in town here. His mother used to have a sort of a boarding house and I would go there for my Friday night meals. And again I think we paid a ridiculous thing like a quarter 14:00or 35 cents or something like that for the meal you know. There were things like that going on around there so that didn't...

H.B.:

Oh, I never had a lack for Jewish friends. I met some on the campus who lived in Louisville, from other parts of the city and I'd go to their houses and things like that.

K.C.:

Of course, there was no Hillel or anything like there is today.

H.B.:

No, nothing organized. No there weren't any fraternities or sororities of a Jewish nature then. I think subsequently they had something, maybe they still have them, I don't know.

K.C.:

Did you feel isolated from just the mainstream?

H.B.:

I don't think so. I got involved in so many things. I was in sports, I played football and track.

K.C.:

American Student Union? You were involved in? That was on your, that was in the...

H.B.:

Well that was...

K.C.:

What is that?

H.B.:

Well that was a very liberal organization. That was...

K.C.:

Was it political?

H.B.:

It was almost like a socialist organization. It was political. It was a 15:00forerunner of a lot of the things that were on the campus in the '60s. The Oxford Pledge was one where we involved them where we all swore that we would not bear arms in the case of a war, we were pacifist unless we were physically attacked or something like that.

K.C.:

What happened with that?

H.B.:

Well it all went by the sides, of course. It was idealism that didn't exist very long. I fought in World War II.

K.C.:

Or you no longer, do you no longer have liberal leanings or socialistic leanings?

H.B.:

I would say that as I've gotten older I've become much more conservative in many different ways. Not my feelings about certain things surely. I mean I still, well, I at one point I was a live member of the NAACP, and I no longer am. I had to resign because of my opposition to the busing for one. I thought it was absolutely nonsense, it made no sense to me at all.

H.B.:

And so I guess that certainly shows us a reactionary trend there. I was a strong member of the civil liberties union and I also resigned because I was disenchanted with a lot of things they were for. So I guess you call me a moderate conservative now.

K.C.:

Just to ask you, since we're on politics now, to ask your opinion on this. A number of things that I've read lately, I read an editorial on Christian Science Monitor, which is kind of a moderate, though not conservative, [crosstalk 00:16:41]. And it said that there's this growing current of conservatism in America, I guess with Proposition 13 and all of that. What are your opinions on that? Do you see that?

H.B.:

Well, I thought Proposition 13 was a very extremely reactionary thing. It was anti-welfare really. And I can't say, although I know there are great abuses in 17:00the welfare program, I'm sure there are a lot of people who need it. And so it worries me to see that kind of a reaction to the situation. I wasn't exactly enthralled with that.

H.B.:

And I can see where the school is going to hurt and education is going to hurt. A lot of things are going to hurt if that continues. No, I'm not that reactionary.

K.C.:

Backing up to UofL again, I think you were in pre-med that you got your AB degree in biology or something? Or what was...

H.B.:

I didn't have a major.

K.C.:

You didn't have a major? Who were some of the more interesting teachers, the more inspiring teachers? We won't deal with the dull ones.

H.B.:

Well, oh, there were several people, of course, in the area that of, I guess my major concern, which was biology and chemistry and the pre-med courses that I had more contact with and so I looked up to them. Harvey Lovell was one.

H.B.:

There was Dr. Humberg. Dr. Humberg was an unusual person. He was not only the head of the chemistry department out of the campus, but he was also the head of the chemistry department at the medical school. He had a dual role there. And because of that he was the man who apparently was the one you wanted to have on your side, because he was also on the admissions committee. And he could handpick the ones from the campus who would get into medical school.

H.B.:

So he was one that... I don't remember him extremely well, of course. Oh, he had a fraternity, an honorary pre-medical fraternity and I can't even remember the Greek letters anymore. Sigma Alpha or something like that.

K.C.:

That's right. Because you were the vice president of it, right?

H.B.:

Okay, yeah. If you got into that, then you pretty well were assured of getting into medical school. And he was the one who made the decisions of who was to get into that, you see.

K.C.:

And you not only got in, but you were vice president of it.

H.B.:

So that helped.

K.C.:

You were a shoo-in, in a sense.

H.B.:

I guess so. So that helped. And so Humberg was an important person to me on the campus. Who else stands out? Of course the deans, I remember them well. Copenheimer and [Trekkel 00:19:38] and the football coach, which I wasn't too excited about. Track team. I don't remember what his name was. That's about it.

H.B.:

Oh, there were characters like Middleton who taught biology who I never liked at all. But he-

K.C.:

Him? You didn't like him, you say?

H.B.:

No. He was a... I don't think this is the time to go into that kind of personality thing. But you know they named a building after him.

K.C.:

Yeah, yeah.

H.B.:

He was a peculiar type person, very peculiar person.

K.C.:

Were you generally pleased with the kind of education you got out there? This isn't public relations for UofL, but just curiosity.

H.B.:

Well, I graduated from high school in New York that had very high academic standards. Erasmus Hall High School. I found that my first year here was total repetition of my last year of high school. I breezed, I got straight A's practically. Which was wonderful, but you know I wasn't really learning all that much.

H.B.:

But I was a plugger. After that, I mean the first year was easy, the others I 21:00had to work, but I knew what my goals were. I wanted to get into medical school I knew I had to get grades and I worked.

H.B.:

I mean I like to say I studied every night. I can almost count the number of days I had when I was on the campus. I'd occasionally go to a dance there but not take anybody there or home, just to be there. And go home and study so more. So I was a bit of a grind I guess, but I knew if you had be at it if you wanted to get in.

K.C.:

You were a determined man and obviously knew that that's what you wanted to do.

H.B.:

That's what I came here for and that's what I was going to do.

K.C.:

What exactly in your background kind of pushed you toward medicine? Your father wasn't medical.

H.B.:

No, my father wasn't. Well, you know this [inaudible 00:21:50] mosaic, there's a plaque next to it and it says "In Memory of" and there are two people. Dr. 22:00William Levitt is one and Dr. John Walker-Moore is the other. And Dr. William Levitt... John Walker-Moore was dean of the medical school. It's pretty obvious why he's there. I forget the exact words, but they planted the seed and saw a good progression or something like that. Dr. William Levitt lived right next door to me when I was a child.

H.B.:

But he's not the one that he went to UofL, a subsequent doctor did. But as a child he was my next door neighbor. He didn't deliver me, he delivered my brother, but he was our family doctor then. His two sons, both of whom are doctors now were my closest friends. And I practically lived in his house.

H.B.:

And, of course, his house was his office. And medicine was something that I saw and admired right from an early age. Except for one short moment when I worked 23:00as a stagehand I entertained the idea of staying with the stage. And I'd say the reason I didn't was I was really frightened of the big communist influence in the stage at that time.

H.B.:

This was in the 30s again and it was the in thing to do amongst many of the intelligentsia, I guess, was to become communist. And all my friends all around me were and it worried me for many reasons.

H.B.:

One of the things that worried me is the fact that I knew I would never get into medical school if I was associated with that. And the other thing was that I wasn't sure I believed it all. But-

K.C.:

This was at the time of Spain too, and [crosstalk 00:23:42]

H.B.:

That's right, oh yeah. That's right.

K.C.:

Heading for Spain.

H.B.:

Right. I had actually been given an offer that to become an apprentice was one of the big... the Stock Morton Company it was called in Greenwich Village where they made most of the sets for the Broadway shows. And I guess I displayed a 24:00little talent even though I was a young kid. They offered me an apprenticeship and I almost took it because the stage was so glamorous to me.

H.B.:

I mean seeing these great people. I would hob-nob with great names like Paul Robeson, for instance, who I had dinner with him every day for two weeks at a time. Cliff Odets came through at that time. He was writing plays, very liberal plays, and he would stay with us while the plays would go into production, and I'd get to know him, and John Garfield. Does that name mean anything to you?

K.C.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

H.B.:

He's another one that was very much involved in the area, actually in the stage that I worked on. I had all these great people who I admired and looked up to. I was very tempted to stay with that, but that lasted about six or eight months 25:00and it went away. But other than that, it was always medicine, there was nothing else that I entertained.

H.B.:

Oh, at one point, I thought maybe architecture would be good. I've always envied a good architect. But medicine was really...

K.C.:

When you went to medical school, I think you mentioned that there were three other Jews who got in.

H.B.:

In my class.

K.C.:

In your class. What was it like as a first year medical student? Was there anti-Semitism either expressed or not expressed but...

H.B.:

Not overt really. It would be shown in ways like most of the non-Jewish boys belonged to fraternities that had access to past exams and access to this. Their advisors were, the faculty advisors would be the heads of the various 26:00departments or people teaching us. And we always had a feeling that they were getting a little extra special care and attention [inaudible 00:26:09].

H.B.:

And we would never be invited to participate in their past files on this, that, and everything else, unless they felt we could contribute something to them. Giving proper answers or something. It showed in that way.

H.B.:

Fraternity was not my way of life anyway. And certainly didn't envy anybody who belonged to one. I didn't want to be even if they were Jewish... well, there was a Jewish fraternity. Medical fraternity, but I didn't join that. No, it wasn't anything that left me worried or anything like that. I mixed very well.

K.C.:

You mentioned that you did serve in World War II and you were graduated in 1939 27:00from undergraduate school. And then went to medical school.

H.B.:

I was known as a combined degree. At the end of my third year, I was accepted to medical school. But it was at the end of my first year of medical school that I got my degree.

K.C.:

I see.

H.B.:

In '39 I was already finishing my first year of medical school. That's when I got my degree, you see.

K.C.:

And when did the service get you?

H.B.:

After my internship. So, '43. I graduated '42, had my internship in '43.

K.C.:

What were the war years like for Jewish men within say, 20 to 25, 26 up to 30 age bracket? Did you feel particularly patriotic?

H.B.:

I was an officer to start with and I was a doctor to start with so we had all kinds of privileges. Particularly in a field unit, I was always in a field unit. 28:00So if anything, I was a sort of a special person. Had I been in a big general hospital, I might have been in another situation entirely, but there I was the only doc and they were very dependent on that and I was an officer. Medics, I guess, had some special privileges. We did a lot of things the other officers had to do.

H.B.:

So I can't say that I was miserable in [inaudible 00:28:41]. The only thing I disliked about the whole thing was the fact my education was stopped dead. I had all kinds of aspirations in the residency program [inaudible 00:28:52] there. But I'll have to admit, I had some pretty exciting moments.

K.C.:

I'm not too familiar with medical education. So, after your internship, you were 29:00an M.D. right?

H.B.:

Well, when you graduate you're an M.D.

K.C.:

Okay, you hadn't gone through your residency yet?

H.B.:

Yeah, I had an internship, but no residency. Residency is for special [crosstalk 00:29:18].

K.C.:

Specialization, okay.

H.B.:

Specialization. No, I was a full doctor, a well-trained doctor, and had a good break in the Army. At one point, I was a medic, I wasn't attached to anti-aircraft unit. And we got to the Philippine islands and they picked a fight on D-Day landing and there was hardly any Japanese aircraft, so their aircraft was doing very well.

H.B.:

Right next to us there was a formal surgical unit, something like what we call MASH units now, set up and they were busy as hell. They [inaudible 00:30:02]. 30:00Turned out that the chief was one of my ex-professors here at the UofL. Henry Sam was [inaudible 00:30:16] and he welcomed me without really knowing anything about me except I was from UofL.

H.B.:

But he just gave me carte blanche and this was a wonderful experience and he kept me there doing nice big surgery. It was also his strength that he got me back here in a residency program. So that was a good break. Other than that it was nothing all that exciting.

K.C.:

You were way out in the Pacific. I'm wondering, as a Jew, whether you were very aware of the Holocaust, what's become known as the Holocaust?

H.B.:

I knew there was trouble in Germany, of course. I knew that before I entered the Army. When Hitler was just ranting and raving before he even got into power, you knew the Jews were going to suffer. But I had no idea, like most people, no idea of what was really happening. I certainly didn't know about the incinerations or anything like that. [inaudible 00:31:29].

H.B.:

No, I just knew that, well, I was just disappointed [inaudible 00:31:39] because I would have rather gone to the European area, if nothing else but to do something about the German thing, but I had no choice about that.

H.B.:

Well, you asked me how I felt as a Jew there. Certainly I found out that Jewish 32:00officers and some enlisted men that I probably was a little closer to the officers. One particular one, well, two in my outfit at one point, [inaudible 00:32:19] one was a dentist and the other was a captain, he was a lawyer.

H.B.:

... officer is in Boston and I get a card from them now and then still. And once in a while we have kids come through, GIs who were Jewish, would come to me, I guess, with some of their problems. It had nothing to do with the Army, personal problems. They felt they could talk to me opposed to others, I guess.

H.B.:

And when the holidays came around, certainly because I was a ranking Jew in every outfit I was in, I guess, I was more or less given charge of that program. I was called upon on several occasions to, of course, we don't really have last rites in the Jewish religion. We had Jewish boys that got killed or were dying and they felt that somebody should be in presence, et cetera, so I had that experience.

H.B.:

Then on a few occasions I actually led the services for the holidays. We had five or six boys, they were all Italian anyway, [inaudible 00:33:57] Jewish and lead the services, again, I guess because I had rank.

H.B.:

But other than that, I didn't feel being a Jew made a... Nobody was looking at me as a Jew that's for sure.

K.C.:

Did your parents, when they were rearing you, did they emphasize Jewish culture, the Jewish religion? Did you go to Hebrew grammar school or Hebrew day school or whatever?

H.B.:

Well, my father and mother, of course, were Orthodox and kosher and that was my style until left Brooklyn to come here. That's the way it was. However, I can say that in spite of that, that I had a real good education in Judaism. I went to the various schools I was supposed to go to and learned all this, learned all that business. But I didn't really come out knowing a hell of a lot.

H.B.:

Unfortunately, spent many years trying to catch up with some of the things I 35:00should have been taught when I was a child. I know my children are certainly getting a better education than I got. Knowledge of everything is just not reading Hebrew or something, it's knowing what they're reading and knowing the history and what the values are of Judaism.

H.B.:

However, I was certainly left with, I guess, with some kind of sense of, longing is not really the word [inaudible 00:35:35]. Envy, that's the word. I'll have to admit there were some phases in my lifetime when I would rather have not been Jewish. One of those was when I wanted to get into medical school, I realized that I was just against them.

H.B.:

I've certainly become a very proud Jew. I don't hesitate to have myself 36:00identified who I am and I work with the Jewish community in various capacities that I can offer them. I think I've raised children who feel the same way. Sometime I feel very fortunate to have been born a Jew. For those special things.

H.B.:

But I think every ethnic group has the same feeling and they should because they all do have something on their own.

K.C.:

That's certainly evident during the heritage weekends. Various college weekends.

H.B.:

Yeah, that's right.

K.C.:

Do you see American Jews returning to their roots, shall we say, becoming more interested in Judaism, in the culture, the language?

H.B.:

Well, certainly as compared to the 30s and 40s when there was a great attempt, or even earlier, I guess, to assimilate totally into the American way of life and giving up almost everything to accomplish that. Certainly there's been a change from that.

H.B.:

I think in many which ways, we've been fortunate to be in a country where at this point at least you can be very comfortable to be a Jew and not worry to much about the recriminations. If you can live that way, fine.

H.B.:

I think first and second generations that came over felt that this was maybe not the way to go. I guess I'm really a second generation, I am a second generation. 38:00I think as a matter of fact, not too many years ago I guess it was stylish to be a Jew. All of a sudden having a Jew in the family, in a Christian family, was no longer a disgrace anymore. It was considered sort of a plus.

H.B.:

Things certainly became easier. I have been accused from time-to-time and particularly one occasion of not spending as much time with the non-Jewish community that I should. That I was [inaudible 00:38:46] or snobbish or whatever. That may be true, I know I probably cheated myself in many which ways, not having more non-Jewish friends than I've had. There's plenty they could 39:00offer you every which way.

H.B.:

From time-to-time when I've taken stock of the situation I say, you know you're probably wrong in what you're doing. I made an effort to go out to the community and take up a job of some kind like with Metro, United Way or with the Jefferson County Medical Society or something. Where it wouldn't just be a Jewish function that I would be involved in, it would be a general community thing.

H.B.:

Feeling that I probably was being a little too narrow in my scope. I probably still am. I think if I had to criticize myself that would be a pretty accurate criticism. I'll have to admit most of my friends are Jews, most of the people that come to my house are Jews. My children's friends are mostly Jews. I guess I 40:00feel more comfortable that way, but it's not always necessary or the right thing to be doing.

K.C.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Let's talk a minute, not a minute or two, but let's talk now about your mosaics. Well, we might just say, when did you get back to Louisville from the Pacific before we go onto mosaics.

H.B.:

Forty-six, '46.

K.C.:

And you've been a surgeon?

H.B.:

Well, then I went back to residency then. I went into practice in '51. I've been in Louisville ever since.

H.B.:

I've always, as I've said, always been interested in crafts. I was in pottery 41:00for a while, ceramics.

K.C.:

That's hard work.

H.B.:

It's hard work, I liked it, but I didn't find it all that challenging some way or other. There are many other things to make and do. I still envy a good potter, there's no question it's a fantastic thing.

H.B.:

I was on a trip to Mexico with my wife and we happened to notice, has to be about 17, 18 years ago. We were sitting in a restaurant that had a sort of outdoor overhang balcony at the back end of the restaurant. They sat us there and while we're eating I happened to look down and I noticed we're in the backyard of a mosaic factory.

H.B.:

I watch these little children there, and they were little children, taking stones and tiles and gluing them on pieces of paper. I became fascinated with 42:00what they were doing. So when we finished eating, I went into this little factory and fortunately the man could speak English. [inaudible 00:42:12] up and showed me what they were doing and how they were doing it. I thought I would like to try it and I ordered some tiles from them. When they arrived here, I started making them. That's what got me into it.

K.C.:

How many have you made do you suppose?

H.B.:

Oh, hundreds of them now.

K.C.:

Hundreds. I noticed you've done all these in the lobby.

H.B.:

They're all over the city and outside the city too.

K.C.:

There's one in Dropsie University in Philadelphia.

H.B.:

Dropsie University has one. The College of Surgeons.

K.C.:

In Brooklyn?

H.B.:

No, it's Chicago.

K.C.:

It's in Chicago?

H.B.:

Yeah. Has one. Well, of course, outside the city, my sisters and mother and father have several, but that doesn't count. They're non-institutional.

K.C.:

Of course the medical school has one.

H.B.:

The medical school has [crosstalk 00:43:02].

K.C.:

Heck Medical Center has one.

H.B.:

Yeah. The zoo has them. Every synagogue has them, several churches have them, schools have them. Matter of fact, I spent this morning, part of this morning, at Clarksville Junior High School. I made one for them many years ago and the tiles are beginning to fall out. This is before I studied epoxy as my mastic. Now it wouldn't happen, but it did for the glue I used there. We took the thing down, they're delivering it to my house, I'm going to restore it for them.

K.C.:

How long did it take you to make the [Flexner 00:43:38] mosaic?

H.B.:

The Flexner was a quickie. The more I do it, the quicker it becomes to do it. I have to say that when you put the first tile down, you've done at least half of the work already at that time. Half of the work is in planning. Getting the idea, getting approval of the idea from various administrators at the medical 44:00school. Then cutting out the boards that it's going to go on and projecting your, I usually start with a picture of some kind.

H.B.:

Then getting on... the bigger size onto these boards and drawing it out there. The moment I put my tile down is I say half of the actual time work or maybe more than that has taken place.

H.B.:

But I put the first tile down on that one on Christmas Day, I happen to remember well. I was finished somewhere in the middle of March. You'll have to remember that we had a horrible winter and a lot of time in the evenings at home to work on it. It went real fast considering all.

H.B.:

This one happened to be a little different than from the others to in that Joe Rigsby, who has been my collaborator. He's a real artist.

K.C.:

A real artist?

H.B.:

A real artist. I'm a craftsman, I'm not an artist. Joe Rigsby accepted a position at Murray State University this year, he's a professor there, and was no longer available to me. When he lived in town here, if I had a problem of some kind with color or with this or that or something about the way I do the thing I wasn't happy with, he'd come down and sharpen things up and give me advice.

H.B.:

I didn't have him, so I was all on my own this time. I had to grow and it was a very good experience for me to do the whole thing. This was probably a more intricate design than anything I've done before, but it worked well and I'm very happy.

K.C.:

You did take, or you audited some course in Ravenna.

H.B.:

Yeah.

K.C.:

Italy.

H.B.:

Yeah, Ravenna, Italy is the mecca of mosaics, I guess in the world. Some of the 46:00greatest mosaics are there and there's a school there of fine arts. And in this school of fine arts they teach the school of mosaics.

H.B.:

Half the people there are priests and nuns who take the course so they can help in the restoration of the mosaics that they have in their churches. The others are students who want to learn how to make mosaics and go out and do it.

H.B.:

I was very lucky to get into that. I went up to Bloomington, Indiana for a weekend of music once and was introduced to a professor there who had spent the previous year on sabbatical in Ravenna. When he heard of my interest in mosaics, he says, "I happen to be a friend of the head of that department. We became very 47:00good friends when I was there. If you're interested, I'll be glad to arrange this for you."

H.B.:

So I was interested and he wrote a letter to this professor, Angelini, and I got a lovely invitation and my wife and I went there. Now my wife speaks many languages and she learned Italian fairly well for this trip. My language is not good at all.

H.B.:

They arranged it so that I audited the course really. I could do anything I wanted to do. There was no structural arrangement for me. But I would observe, I'd listen, I'd work with the students. And at the end of almost every hour, the registrar of the school there, who spoke English very well, would come and say, "Is there anything in the last hour that happened that you didn't understand?" 48:00And I have some notes and I'd tell him and he'd get it clarified for me.

H.B.:

Well, this was fantastic and they wouldn't take a penny for this, by the way, it was gratis. It was just because I was a friend of the professor. It was a very nice experience. The only way I could repay them was to take everybody out to dinner all the time and do various things, a couple of gifts and stuff like that.

H.B.:

That was a fine experience. I learned, particularly the ancient techniques. Because so much was involved in restoration there going back to actually setting tiles in concrete and various things that the old ones were all set into. I got a full perspective of it.

H.B.:

Also went to the school at the Vatican. There's a mosaic school there, well, factory I should say. It's not a school really, it's a factory. Where they make mosaics, again, for churches all over the world and also for self individuals.

H.B.:

That took a little doing because I had to get a special invitation there too. I 49:00got to the Archbishop [inaudible 00:49:08] called me and finally got the proper thing taken care of. I spent a little time at that place learning their techniques.

H.B.:

Then in Israel I visited, well, also in Italy, other studios. Studios of mosaicists who showed me little tricks and turns and I saw what they were doing, comparing notes and all that. Then, also, I've been taking classes in arts for years.

K.C.:

You mean here?

H.B.:

Well, Joe Rigsby was my first one and then Michael Carter more recently, last three or four years. Live drawing so I can really draw a little better, water mosaics.

K.C.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Is this mostly individual instruction, tutoring or do you actually go-?

H.B.:

Classes, anyone from six to a dozen people in class with modeling and sketching. Mostly they teach you to see.

K.C.:

A lot of coordination.

H.B.:

A lot of people look at things and I look at your face and I see highlights and I see shadows and stuff like that. Most people don't see that, but that's what a painting or a reproduction is all about.

K.C.:

Like da Vinci, who studied the anatomy. As a medical doctor-

H.B.:

Has that helped me?

K.C.:

Has that helped you?

H.B.:

I wish I could say so. All my instructors feel that it should.

K.C.:

But it hasn't helped a bit, huh?

H.B.:

Well, I think it probably does. But I think they probably know more superficial anatomy than I do. You get an arm, you can see the ripple there and you can see the shadow between between this muscle and that muscle and then you know exactly 51:00all about it. We didn't quite study anatomy that way. We're into the muscle [inaudible 00:51:08].

K.C.:

Yeah, yeah.

H.B.:

But yeah, knowledge of anatomy certainly helps. Can't deny that.

K.C.:

How do you, as a busy surgeon, how do you find the time to do your mosaics? Just want to do mosaics, what's the proper word?

H.B.:

Yeah, yeah. Make mosaics. How do I find the time? Well, I'm sure there may be some surgeons are so busy that they have nothing but time for surgery.

K.C.:

Well, you hear these stories that surgeons work 80 and 100 hours a week. You never have any free time.

H.B.:

If even you do, you still have some time. Eighty hours isn't all that much.

K.C.:

You just don't go home and collapse?

H.B.:

Not necessarily.

K.C.:

Being a surgeon 10 hours a day?

H.B.:

I've had those days, I don't have them every day by an means. And those days, I may not work. And I don't work every day or every night on mosaics. I do it in 52:00spurts. The nice thing about it you can work for one hour or you can work for five hours. You can put any time into that you want to.

H.B.:

If you're in the middle of something, you just wipe off all your excess mastic, throw it away and that's it. I get a phone call in the middle of something and I have to leave, I stop. I've got that advantage in that its that type of hobby we can stop at any point.

H.B.:

I haven't given up other things that I enjoy. I still go to concerts, opera, I still play tennis. I find time for other things. Maybe I'm just not as busy as some other doctors are. I'll tell you, in the four hours or three hours it takes to play a game of golf, I can do a lot of mosaic. You can equate it that way if 53:00you want to.

K.C.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Do you think you'll become, and this is word, real artist one day? Do you-

H.B.:

I'm afraid I don't have-

K.C.:

If you ever retire-

H.B.:

I really am not creative enough. I can reproduce anything I see. You show me something, I can do it. But to come up with a real original idea, I don't seem to have that talent.

K.C.:

Do you have that urge to be creative?

H.B.:

I-

K.C.:

Is it frustrating wanting to be and, by your admission, not being?

H.B.:

I don't suffer from it. I know I'd like to be that way, but I'm not so I live with it. [inaudible 00:53:44].

K.C.:

Yeah, yeah.

H.B.:

It's not that, but I have great respect for people who are creative. I admire them and I enjoy watching them work and watching them do things.

H.B.:

I've got an interesting story to tell in that respect and it's appropriate to Jewish history. Yadin, who is who is now Deputy Minister of Israel, is a known archeologist, the one who unearthed Masada.

K.C.:

This is Ithaki Rabin?

H.B.:

No, Yadin.

K.C.:

Yadin.

H.B.:

Y-A-D-I-N, Yadin. Yigael Yadin his name is. He is Menacham's Deputy Prime Minister. Spent a year in the states here, six or seven years ago, as a visiting professor at Brown University in archeology.

H.B.:

His father's the one, he's the first one involved in the Dead Sea Scrolls. His 55:00family has been in archeology from way back when. And while he was at Brown he was invited to Louisville to speak at the Catholic Seminary on his experiences with Masada. Actually the Jewish community and the seminary got together and paid his honorarium.

H.B.:

I was fortunate enough to have him as my guest at my house. I have to tell you a little more background. Yadin, during the war of liberation, the first-

K.C.:

Forty-eight.

H.B.:

Forty-eight. He was chief of staff in the army and, of course, in more recent years he's been renowned as an archeologist.

H.B.:

As my guest I showed him around Louisville and showed him some of the mosaics I made, particularly the one at the Jewish Community Center because in that 56:00there's some shards there that I picked up out of Masada and put into the plate so he was interested in that and some of the other things. Then we came home to the house for dinner-

Speaker 3:

Excuse me, Dr. Berg?

H.B.:

Yes? [interview stops 00:56:06]

H.B.:

Yadin at one point said to me, he says, "You know, I always admire somebody taking a hobby and it's perfected to the point where," I forget the exact words he used, but something where you're an authority or well-respected or something or renowned or something like that. That was, of course, a compliment to me [inaudible 00:56:44].

H.B.:

I said, "Well, Mr. Yadin, I guess you're the best example of that I can think of. I'm sure when you got into archeology it was a hobby at first and now you're an internationally known archeologist." He says, "Oh, you're absolutely wrong. I studied to be an archeologist. I went to school and I took my courses in 57:00archeology and I got my degree in archeology and this is what I prepared for in life." He says, "the military was my hobby."

K.C.:

It's kind of an odd turnaround there.

H.B.:

Chief of staff.

K.C.:

Yeah, yeah.

H.B.:

I thought that was interesting.

K.C.:

That's interesting.

H.B.:

He did it too. Anyway, where are we now?

K.C.:

Do you have one in the works now so to speak, a mosaic? You're going to repair the one from the Clarksville.

H.B.:

Yeah, that's probably in my driveway right now. We took it down and they were supposed to deliver it. Yeah, I've got one in the works now. It's a small thing for the Kentucky Division of the AORN, American Operating Room Nurses, or Association of Operating Room Nurses. They've asked me to make a plaque for 58:00them. It's a simple thing.

H.B.:

It's Kentucky Honor Divisions, actually it's sort of Kentucky and Indiana in the background and right smack in the Louisville area is their logo. It's one hand handing an instrument to the other hand. And then words around Kentucky AORN. That's a simple thing.

H.B.:

I have made two commitments that I'm going to do in the next couple years, or next year or so. The Jefferson County Medical Society has purchased the old medical school and they're redoing it and I'm going to make one for the big lounge there. Which will probably be of some Kentucky historical thing, like a dowel or something like that. We're talking about that. That'll probably be the next one.

H.B.:

And the First Christian Church is building a new place out on-

K.C.:

That's my church.

H.B.:

That's your church?

K.C.:

Yeah.

H.B.:

Ralley?

K.C.:

Yeah.

H.B.:

Oh, well, we've had a lot of discussions.

K.C.:

Is that right?

H.B.:

I agreed to make one for them.

K.C.:

Well. What ideas do you have?

H.B.:

Well, he had a lot of ideas and they were very highly religious representational things that were really strange to me. I didn't know these stories at all. But I said, "You come to the house and we'll talk this over." He and his wife came over and I showed him all the things that I had then, all my books and mosaics, just to give him an idea of what can be done.

H.B.:

He was about ready to take off on a trip and it was the beginning last spring I guess it was.

K.C.:

He became very ill as you may know.

H.B.:

Oh, I didn't.

K.C.:

Yeah, yeah. But he's since recovered.

H.B.:

That's why I haven't heard.

K.C.:

That's-

H.B.:

Oh, no, no. I know he was ill a year ago though.

K.C.:

Oh, okay.

H.B.:

With hepatitis and all that business, a stroke. But this was after he recovered. 60:00And he was going to contact me as soon as he got back and I haven't heard from him. But then I heard from somebody that the bids came back way out of line and I figured maybe that's why he's-

K.C.:

Yeah, there's been a lot trouble with that.

H.B.:

Holding up on it. But I promised him that I would do that.

K.C.:

I guess your reputation is, sort of, as they say, proceeds you.

H.B.:

Well, I met this Mr. Ralley. I guess you call him Mr. Ralley.

K.C.:

Doctor, or Reverend, he's also a doctor.

H.B.:

I should call him doctor, I'm glad you told me. I didn't know that. Because I never know what to call him. Joe, I guess.

K.C.:

Yeah, that's the safest. He's just plain folks as they say.

H.B.:

Yeah, I met him through a mutual friends of ours and became very found of him, a very nice person.

K.C.:

Well, that's interesting to know. I'll remember that.

H.B.:

He said there's going to be an archway in the entrance and he wanted one on each 61:00side of the arch. That's pretty big ideas.

K.C.:

Is it difficult for you to get these ideas in your mind and know exactly what you want to do? [crosstalk 01:01:16]

H.B.:

Well, with a subject like that, which is somewhat esoterical, I told him that if he could find something that I could use, that would be easy. If not, we'd have to get a professional artist to help draw the thing. Well, he was anxious not to get involved in that kind of financial involvement. My services are totally free. No strings attached, I give it and I enjoy doing it. But I can't ask somebody to, like Joe Rigsby, to do something for nothing.

H.B.:

So, he said he would look around and hopefully find something. If he can give me 62:00a drawing of any kind, close to what he wants. I can pick it up from there and do something you see. So he said he was going to look for something.

K.C.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). We have some time left. Do you have any last-

H.B.:

Well, we really never talked about the mosaic at the Jewish Community Center.

K.C.:

Okay, we want to talk about that. Go ahead about that. I went out to look at that, I went out there especially.

H.B.:

About 1968, I guess it was, Joe Kaplan, who was a lawyer in town here and made great contributions to the Jewish community in many different ways, was very sick. He had a coronary and he probably thought he was going to die. And he got permission from his cardiologist to come talk to me. And he said, "Harold," he says, "I'm asking you to do something because I don't know who else to ask. But 63:00it had always been my wish that something in this community be put up to memorialize the Holocaust so people can see this enough to get the message of it. Could you in any which way help me? I'll pay anybody [inaudible 01:03:26] I'll be glad to pay for it or make provisions in my will or something for it."

H.B.:

And he actually had outlined... he already gave me a manila envelope, I still have it at home, past history, recent past history Jewish world community. He went way back to Hertzog and the Zionist movement and right on to the present to the Holocaust.

H.B.:

I took it home and studied it for a while and thought this was an exciting 64:00thing. I would love to do it in a mosaic. We never even discussed that as a possibility. He just came to me as somebody who knew the art world and could find the right person to do it. So, I went back and I said, "Joe, I would very much like to do this myself. I'll need the help of an artist, but let me do this. I can't put everything you have there, it's just too much, but we'll condense it somewhat and do it." And that's the way that started.

K.C.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

H.B.:

So, I actually finished it in '69.

K.C.:

When did you begin it, did you say?

H.B.:

Well, again we started talking about it in '68, but a year of research to come up with the ideas. I went through all kinds of books and magazines and I went to Israel and went to the Yad Vashem, which is the memorial to the Hol-