Interview with Joseph and Dorothy Yudofsky, March 8, 1979

Interviewer:

...Oral History Project. Today is March 8th, 1979. Tonight, I am talking with Mr. Joseph Yudofsky. Mr. Yudofsky was born September 11, 1911, in Lithuania. He presently lives on Valletta Lane in Louisville, Kentucky. His parents were Simon and Mary Yudofsky. Mr. Yudofsky, under what circumstances did you come to America?

Joseph Yudovsky:

My father was here since 1911, in Louisville. He came to meet his sister, who was married with children. They came before him, but they came to Louisville in 1906. My father and mother built a house in Lithuania, and they had a hard time 1:00paying off the mortgage. So, he thought he'd come to the United States and make some money to help pay the mortgage. While he was here, he didn't make that much money. Meanwhile, World War started in 1914, just soon afterwards, and everything stopped. All kind of traveling, and things like that, had stopped completely.

J.Y.:

So, we hadn't heard from him during the whole war, which had lasted until 1919 in American. And, of course, we had quite a bit of trouble in Lithuania. First 2:00were the Russians, leaving the city, burning the city. Then, the Germans came in, traveled back and forth, day and night, millions of soldiers through. What the Russians left burning, they start up all over again. So the biggest part of the city was burned and all the records and everything from school with it.

J.Y.:

The people over there had a very hard time during the war. The military took over everything. What had belonged to the private people, everything had to go to the army, to the German Army. So for the ones who didn't live up to it were severely punished. Death was shooting in the court. In the main market, was the 3:00usual thing. Anyone who disobeyed the rules and horrors. And there was also a number of diseases being brought back... the military so there were a number of vaccinations were going on against [inaudible 00:03:28], vaccinations done well over four or five times, I've been vaccinated.

Interviewer:

You received all those as a very young child?

J.Y.:

Yes, a young child, everything under... When the war was over, then there was... wasn't sure who's going to control it. So, there were certain bands, militaries, breaking out from the German Army and joining one of [inaudible 00:04:01] was by 4:00the name of General Kolchak was from Czechoslovakia. He just had some German, Russians and Hungarian soldiers with them trying to fight the Communists who were trying to come over. And the communists came over to our city that were there in our town, named Kelme, and they had a tremendous battle there and they succeeded in driving the Communists further up to Russia, all the way up there.

J.Y.:

And then the League of Nations formed and they had a number of countries declared, so Lithuania was one of the old countries became [inaudible 00:04:58] Poland, and some other small countries Czechoslovakia, [inaudible 00:05:01], 5:00Romania, and Austria and all that countries.

J.Y.:

Anyway, things were never too good over there, especially, for the Jewish people. They were accustom for being afraid. Walking down the side of the street you'll see somebody else walking, because you're always afraid you'd be harmed and things like that. And so after the war my father decided we should bring the family over to Europe beacause -from Europe to the United States. My mother had her whole family there, she wasn't willing to go so it took a number of years to do it. So finally, in 1925, she decided to come because my oldest brother, 6:00Harry, who died just about five months ago-

Interviewer:

I'm so sorry.

J.Y.:

-was getting to the age where he'd be drafted to the army, and then couldn't leave. So we left towards the end of the winter, just about this time of the year. It was in March, end of March, and we came. The first stop was in Germany, Konigsberg. Then from Konigsberg we went to Berlin and we stayed there a couple days. Then from there we went to Rotterdam.

Speaker 3:

How you came to Louisville?

J.Y.:

Yeah, and from Rotterdam we crossed to the channel, that was the worst part of our trip, the English Channel to England. It was an overnight trip, and I never was so sick in all my life [laughing 00:07:15], my whole family was never so sick. And over there we take there... it had a great big, super boat by the name of [inaudible 00:07:27]. It's part of the Queen Elizabeth boats and all this. Was one of the biggest steamers there at that time. And we left. It was Friday afternoon, and we got to New York City, Ellis Island, on the following Friday.

J.Y.:

The trip was very miserable, except for one day it was very foggy. And the boat was hardly moving, that's the only time I felt good. The rest of the time I was just as sick as could be. And when we stayed in Ellis Island just for a few hours, and then they had a society by the name of HIAS, that means Hebrew Immigrants Association, and they took us to their office, and we stayed there for Saturday. And we had a nice quiet, pleasant day there. It was on East Broadway, New York. I still recall it. It's where all the immigrants used to come.

J.Y.:

And there was a few more immigrants with us. And then on Sunday we got on a train. We went straight to Louisville.

Interviewer:

What did you think of New York when you saw it?

J.Y.:

Well, New York was really tremendous. I'd never seen anything like it. I'll never forget, I was walking on the street and I find a penny and I thought, "Oh, well, money that's laying in the streets in America." But it was Spring, it was very beautiful. And in that time people were nice and friendly. Most people in that neighborhood spoke Jewish, so we could converse with them very easily. And the people in the HIAS were very nice immigrants. They spoke all kind of languages, and were very friendly.

J.Y.:

And when we came to Louisville, I met my father's family and then he had a house 10:00rented on Madison Street. It was 411 East Madison. Temporary house. It was right before the holidays of Passover, just about 10 days before. And we stayed there, we passed the holidays, we stayed there for a few extra months there. And then we find a little larger home on East Chestnut Street, 530 East Chestnut. It was at that time was very close to school called Thomas Jefferson School. In fact, all I had to do was climb the fence and go to school. I did not know how to 11:00speak a single word of English or anything. I realized they put me... and I was 13 and they put me in the third grade with eight and nine year old children.

J.Y.:

But they were extremely nice and I made a number of friends through time. But I guess I wasn't interested too much in school, so after school I used to go out, and I had a cousin who was selling papers on Fourth and Walnut, [inaudible 00:11:36], and I was selling papers for him. He used to pay me very little, a quarter or so, to help him sell papers. And then he introduced to me to a number of other ventures. Go to the races and sell racing forms, newspapers, and 12:00spreadsheets, and other things. Wrestling was very fashionable at that time, and they had a national [inaudible 00:12:16] on Fifth and Walnut. The used to have professional matches there every week.

J.Y.:

So started to sell cokes and many other soft drinks during intermission, this is in the winter time. Then in the summer they also had one on Broadway that opened up an arena, 800 block West Broadway for wrestling. And the promoter of that wrestling also had a concessions for soft drinks and food and sold by a man named Abel Hyman. He was a junk dealer. His name probably you'll find in 13:00records, he was a very important man in the junk business. He was a great big dealer.

J.Y.:

So finally I wind up trying to get a job, so jobs were not available, so I find a part-time job for Kleinman Furriers, by that time 619 South Fourth Street. I was helping out. Doing all kind of errands and helping out in the factory, 14:00making seven, eight dollars a week. Of course, I just kept on at nighttime sell papers at night. I would also go to the wrestling matches and fights-

Interviewer:

You were still a young boy at this time?

J.Y.:

I was still a young boy. I was still a young boy, I was under 16, I was like 14 and a half. And while I was working for Kleinman I was fine with... somehow I learned the trade very fast, and in a short time I became a fur cutter. I became the head of fur cutters. He had a number of people working there at that time. Then in 1929 things got very bad with the stock market crash and everything 15:00else, so he had to lay off a number of help. He laid off everybody.

J.Y.:

So I also was laid off that time, and he had a son in New York who went with his brother-in-law in the manufacturing business manufacturing furs, fur trimmings. And he used to do the trimmings for all the fashionable clothing houses. People used to do the clothing dressing for the movies at that time, silent movies, for Ziegfeld Follies, and also for the very fine Fifth Avenue stores, and very fine stores all over the country. He used to work mostly in ermines and sables, white 16:00ermines, sables, and many other fine furs. And he was... in the same block there also was another furrier by the name of Gottlieb, he was a custom furrier. He take care of the finest [inaudible 00:16:22] in New York City.

J.Y.:

But there wasn't enough work for one of us, I helped work to the other ones. So I learned quite a bit about the fur trade from being in the finest factories at that time. And of course, things were still not too good in New York, but never the less I managed to save some money with things going so slow, and I did save up about $700. And I also had a brother who was working in the fur shop here. 17:00For a Louisville furriers, the name of Goldstein, and he lost his job. At that time I was intend to go in business with a friend of mine, myself.

J.Y.:

Then my brother had lost his job, and he was married so-

Speaker 3:

You were going to go in business in New York.

J.Y.:

We were supposed to go in business in New York at that time, because it was just getting better. It was 1934, it was just getting better, so we were starting to specialize in merchandise that comes from China, which was inexpensive. We could make fur coats some of their furs. Well, all this had to be broken up and I came to Louisville and we opened up a fur business, in the Heyburn Building. Mr. 18:00William Heyburn was very interested to have us in his building. So he built a whole store for us in 1934, and it was 709 South Fourth Street.

J.Y.:

We're still there that at time. Also we had another brother that used to work for Schreider brothers, they were very famous [inaudible 00:18:36] at that time, on Seventh and Chestnut. He was doing the fur work there, he was a furrier. So we decide all three of us to go together become furriers.

J.Y.:

In order to get the work we went around to different stores and trying to get 19:00work at that time, because department stores would sell a number of furs but they did not have their own furriers. They didn't know how to fit them, or prepare them, or start them. So I got a number of furriers on Fourth Street and a number of tailors to do some fur work, got their jobs. Also went as far as Lexington. We had a big store at Embry. So we went there for work and also went to Nashville. Doing the work for Nashville, so we still took quite a bit of work that way, until we established ourselves, and we get more and more famous.

J.Y.:

So we progressed every year, somehow. And in 1937 the flood hit us, and we 20:00managed somehow to get all the furs out from our store. The elevators wasn't work, kind of the water was coming in the building. So we brought it up to the second floor in the Heyburn Building, and we stayed with fur until the water was receding. It must have been about 12 days. And it was getting colder every day. So we were walking up one floor to the next floor. One time we went up to the 18th floor, which was to the warm air, because the boiler room was in the basement, and everything was cold air. So-

Interviewer:

Did you keep moving the furs with you?

J.Y.:

No, we kept the furs on the second floor, where the water only reached the first 21:00floor in the Heyburn Building. It only went to just about seven feet.

Speaker 3:

It was kind of the fashion center in the neighborhood [crosstalk 00:21:12]-

J.Y.:

Yeah, at that time they had the finest-

Speaker 3:

Finest shops.

J.Y.:

They had the finest dress shops with Meriweather and [inaudible 00:21:19]. They had the finest styles that New York and Paris had produced.

Speaker 3:

[inaudible 00:21:31] shop.

J.Y.:

[inaudible 00:21:32] used to have... of course I also used to do the fur work for them. At that particular time Russian [inaudible 00:21:41] was very fashionable, very expensive. I used to make a lot of coats special for them. And we would have doing a little well with the rest of them. My name was getting more popular, because I had all the experience New York, and there wasn't anyone 22:00who'd trained as much as I have. Training in the fur work. Well, no one in Louisville had that much training up to this particular moment as a matter of fact.

J.Y.:

So somehow the name was going stronger and stronger, but in Cincinnati what we'd just to do to work for them they decided they had so much work they would like the furrier around. So my oldest brother, Harry, he went to work for Jenny and Company. It was a very fashionable ladies shop. They employed just about 300 people there. Dress shop and cloaks and furs together-

Speaker 3:

Specialties.

J.Y.:

Specialty store. He was taking care of all the furs, all the fur work and the 23:00repairs and [inaudible 00:23:05] and so forth. And he stayed there for around 35 years until Jenny was bought out by-

Speaker 3:

That really wouldn't be Louisville.

J.Y.:

It was Cincinnati. No, it was [inaudible 00:23:25]. He had a store, but it I think it didn't last long, and Jenny just kept her code name, but-

Speaker 3:

Giddings-Jenny-

J.Y.:

Giddings, yeah. Well, Giddings, Giddings-Jenny. So from there he just moved to Columbus, because his daughter was there and his grandchildren. They moved to Columbus and opened up a store. And we were still in Louisville, getting better 24:00every year, in business.

J.Y.:

My children were getting four or five years old, I was thinking perhaps we should open up a Jewish Day School instead of having... Because this way the children used to go to public school, and then from there they used to spend the rest of the time in the Hebrew Schools. It was too hard. I thought maybe they can do it all at one time, so they have more time to play. And we were talking about it, and we got together a number of people were interested in it. And we decided to have it in Keneseth Israel. Has the best facilities. Keneseth congregation. They have the beautiful rooms, some schools.

J.Y.:

Went as far as we even hired a kindergarten teacher. We had 30 children already signed up for the day school. Somehow the congregation itself though was starting to be a split. Some of them wanted to have it called mixed sitting, it was an orthodox congregation. And the younger people wanted to be more modern, they want the women and men to sit together. The older people were against it, so while the congregation were arguing, meanwhile they had a meeting and decided to layoff for the next meeting about opening up the kindergarten and then the first grade for a Jewish day school.

J.Y.:

So meanwhile, the argument between the congregation went on and on, and another meeting for the day school was never came out until five years afterwards [laughing 00:26:19]. When a man by the name of Mr. Spivak.

Speaker 3:

Mr. Spivak.

J.Y.:

Mr. Spivak. He wanted to have something in his father's memory. Opens up some kind of educational program. So our committee talked to Mr. Spivak, and he was interested in that, so we bought a house on Douglas, 2228 Douglas. It was a old 27:00mansion that belonged to Colonel Levy, from Levy Brothers. And we-

Speaker 3:

Levy brothers.

J.Y.:

Yeah, Levy brothers, belonged to old Fred Levy. At that time we hired a teacher from New York-

Speaker 3:

Principal.

J.Y.:

-and his wife. Principal, Teacher named Rabbi Charner, and Mrs. Charner. He was the principal and Mrs. Charner was the teacher-

Speaker 3:

Rabbi Charner-

J.Y.:

Rabbi Charner was the principal and Mrs. Charner-

Speaker 3:

-Mrs. Charner-

J.Y.:

-was also teacher-

Speaker 3:

Kindergarten-

J.Y.:

...kindergarten teacher, and Rabbi Charner was teaching the first grade. And then the following year we hired more teachers for the second grade and then teachers for third grade and so forth-

Interviewer:

[crosstalk 00:27:55] a grade a year.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, a year.

J.Y.:

And yeah. At that time the state wanted to take over the Hebrew school, and also the ritual bathhouse. It was at that time under [inaudible 00:28:30] Hoer.

Speaker 3:

[inaudible 00:28:36]

J.Y.:

H-O-E-R. And the YMHA was on Second Street, 700 block South Second. Was not large enough and they had decided to build a new YMHA, so they could call it a 29:00Jewish Community Center. So they picked that place on Dutchmans Lane it's its present place right now. And they decided to have the Hebrew school there, too. They built a special home for Hebrew school besides having the center, it's just like YMHA. So there was no one there to take care of the ritual bathhouse-

Speaker 3:

Called the Mikvah-

J.Y.:

Mikvah. M-I-K-V-A-

Speaker 3:

H.

J.Y.:

-H. So they had a meeting at that Hebrew school on Walnut Street, and decided 30:00someone should take it over, to have charge of it. There wasn't anyone that wanted to take charge of it, because it was a big responsibility. So they called a meeting and that with Rabbi [inaudible 00:30:28] told me to come to the meeting, it's a very important meeting.

J.Y.:

And there were several hundred people at that meeting. And the meeting also was called by the [inaudible 00:30:44] ritual slaughtering. They had some difficulties with getting persons to do the slaughtering bank from out of town. And management and the one who had charge by the name Mr. Goldstein was there 31:00for a number of years. In fact, he was for 18 years head of the ritual slaughtering, was also present over the congregation Keneseth Israel at that time. He resigned and wouldn't accept the job again, and no one wanted it. So one of the butchers suggested my name and Rabbi [inaudible 00:31:27] said, I must take it. It would come all the help he could.

J.Y.:

So that's when the trouble started. [laughing 00:31:37] At that time we had chicken slaughtering on Preston Street. Preston and Fehr, we had a special building there for slaughtering of fowl, and we had two kosher men used to take- 32:00[the interview cuts off 00:32:05]

Interviewer:

...on the tape. It's okay, I turned it over-

Speaker 3:

[crosstalk 00:32:09] and tell them what you just said.

J.Y.:

We had a mikvah on First Street, on First and Walnut, between Brook and Walnut. It was built in the turn of the century, in 1907 was completed. And that also was housing... then later on in 1919 they took in the Hebrew school there, and they had a very successful Hebrew school. At times, they had as much as 150 to 175 boys and girls attending six days a week. Sometimes also they had services 33:00on Saturday. But as things went on the Hebrew school became the biggest part of the building and they took over the care of the ritual bathhouse, Mikvah. And they took complete care of it, and maintained and paid the bills and everything like that.

J.Y.:

When they start building the new Jewish Community Center, the Hebrew school was decided to go into the center, because the neighborhood was getting extremely bad, on East Walnut Street. So the ritual bathhouse remained there, and there 34:00was no one there to take care of it, so [inaudible 00:34:07] was formed, as I said before, in 1953. We undertook to take care of the Mikvah. To take complete charge of it was a tremendous headache, we all said. We had a lot of trouble there with vandalism. Kept breaking windows all the time.

J.Y.:

Anyway, so as I said before we had a chicken slaughtering on Preston Street and cattle slaughtering was done by a company by the name of Dawson Packing Company 35:00on Lexington Road. We had a rabbi or what we would call a Sochet, S-O-C-H-E-T, in each one. They used to alternate one week in the chicken house and one week in the slaughterhouse, it didn't work. But the financial conditions were very bad there, we couldn't support two of them at that time. So we had meetings in the YMHA, and what to do. So we decided-

Speaker 3:

Jewish Community Center?

J.Y.:

The YMHA before the Jewish community Center was built. We decided in the chicken 36:00house they had equipment there to pluck the chickens by machine. The machine was going bad, we had no money or anything like this. So a member named Mr. Epstein, he lent us $600 and we bought a new plucking machine, and we're trying to figure out how to pay it back. So we can... And we noticed that there wasn't enough money coming in from the chicken from being slaughtered. At that time everybody used to have their own chickens slaughtered to sell. Used to buy it in the hay market, and bring it over to the chicken house and have it slaughtered.

J.Y.:

Somehow there wasn't enough money coming in, so we moved over the meetings from 37:00the YMHA to our house here. [inaudible 00:36:52] we had wonderful meetings and we decided to every time the Sochet, or the slaughterer would slaughter a chicken or any of the fowls should put in an emblem. This way we'll know exactly how many chickens or geese or [crosstalk 00:37:35] turkeys.

Speaker 3:

It was a little tag.

J.Y.:

It was just a tag, an emblem. That way we'll know for sure that the fowls has been slaughtered in a kosher way. At the same time we'll be able to check out the income. Since then our income has tripled. More than that in a short time we were able to pay Mr. Epstein his money right back. We have extra money coming 38:00into the church.

Speaker 3:

Went from fur to feathers.

J.Y.:

Of course, we had also difficulties with having two butchers shops and Second World War has coming now. So [inaudible 00:38:29] and things like this, and we had a butcher shop on 7th Street and he was closing up, and they had several out on Preston Street where most of the Jewish community was, Preston. Named Mr. [inaudible 00:38:47], he was going out of business, so two young men who were in the... one of them was in the grocer business, the other one was a wholesale 39:00meat man, decided to open up a kosher butcher shop, name was Weinberg. He die- he's dead since then, and the second one was Abe Hoffman and they were doing real well. There was another one by the name of Mr. [Shrager 00:39:28] an older man, supposed to have the finest meat.

J.Y.:

So we had quite a bit of trouble with the kosher slaughters, they somehow they weren't satisfied with their salaries, and things like that, and one of them was supposed to be taking care of Jewish circumcision. So finally one of them moved 40:00away and we had to get another one, so we got another man, and he wanted a lot more money. But he was a very good man for circumcision.

Speaker 3:

We called him a mo-mo.

J.Y.:

He's called mohel, M-O-H-E-L. And he came from a big city, and he wanted a lot of money, so I'll treasure was getting short again. So he finally quit and went to a different city, and we had to hire somebody else, and he had trouble. Some of the doctors didn't think he was doing a good job or so. So there were continuous worries all the time, so we had to bring a man from out of town for 41:00circumcisions. We used to bring in a man either from Cincinnati or Indianapolis, sort of going on.

J.Y.:

Then we were only left with one man taking care of the slaughtering, and he didn't want to take care of both places. So we had to bring in a man either from Cincinnati or Indianapolis to help out, and I had to leave in the middle of business and pick him up either at the airport or pick him up at the bus station, and bring him back. It was taking up quite a bit of my time. So for what? Done it all for the community, because they come first.

Interviewer:

Could you give me an approximate number of the orthodox community that would be using these individuals you're talking about?

J.Y.:

It's very hard to say. We never took the names or anything.

Speaker 3:

Well, the congregation. You took the names of the congregation.

J.Y.:

The full congregation belongs to it. So there was the one who [inaudible 00:42:29] was on 12th and Jefferson at that time. There went Anshei Sfard, First and Walnut. There was [inaudible 00:42:39], Jeshurun, it's right here on Woodbourne right now. And Keneseth Israel, which was at that time on Floyd and Jacob.

Interviewer:

So really it was a large responsibility.

J.Y.:

Well, the amount of people that Jewish community we don't know. We never could, but we-

Speaker 3:

There were thousands of them.

J.Y.:

Well, that were thousands. We decided in order to bring in more money we should have promote sales. At one time we had a sale, for instance, on kosher hamburger, we advertised 35 cents a pound. Well, today itself we sold five thousand pounds of hamburger. And so besides other meat, because hamburger was not very popular, and for a time, steaks were very reasonable. So we must have a quite a number of people, but we could never know a definite amount. Besides having private people, also we have the Jewish hospital. Who has a kosher 44:00kitchen, and every congregation has a kosher kitchen. So does the Jewish Community Center has a kosher kitchen. And the day school they have a kosher kitchen. So at that time we used to use about 12 thousand pounds of kosher meat, and fowls we estimate around 450-

Speaker 3:

A week.

J.Y.:

... a week. 450, no. Then the frozen meat and packaging meat came in style, and kind of broken in part of our income. We had no income from the meat that's being sold [crosstalk 00:44:59]-

Speaker 3:

You never mentioned that each butcher paid a certain tax or levy on every pound of meat-

J.Y.:

Meat, yes.

Speaker 3:

-which went into the-

J.Y.:

Paying for the slaughter-

Speaker 3:

-which paid for the mikvah.

J.Y.:

Slaughtering and mikvah-

Speaker 3:

And the mohel or the circumciser, right?

J.Y.:

Yes. Used to pay three and half cents a pound of meat, before the trim. That paid for all the expenses. While a lot of the frozen chickens and frozen meats came in style our income climbed and we saw the butcher shops over left the last 46:00butcher, so we only had two butchers left at that time.

Speaker 3:

Why don't you tell her about your kosher law.

J.Y.:

And we had to scrap again to pay for our sochet and also for our circumcision. Also I want to mention the time that we wanted to be sure that we were having... because once you sell kosher should... really good kosher should not be kosher style, like some of them called just kosher style. So we had influence in Frankfort... during the recession, I'm not sure exactly the year, it was around 1967-

Speaker 3:

You'll have it in records.

J.Y.:

I have it in the records here. They passed a law, a kosher law, which we copied from the New York state law, that every store that sells kosher should have a sign at least four inches size we kosher only, and the one who does not sell kosher alone. Sells kosher and non-kosher have a sign we sell kosher and non-kosher, in order people who observe kosher should not get confused. So the people who real kosher, usually buy in a place who sell kosher only. That was one of the great things we have accomplished in the small time for the Jewish 48:00community is probably-

Speaker 3:

Which is state law.

J.Y.:

It's a state law. For the Jewish-

Speaker 3:

It became a state law.

J.Y.:

Yeah, it became a state law. Still, in effect-

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it still is.

J.Y.:

-in effect, but it has never been tried, but it still is in effect. Yeah, I have written a number of letters to people who used to sell kosher and did not have a sign immediately they obeyed the law. Either they stopped selling kosher, or else they had a sign put in their windows.

Speaker 3:

Didn't other states also write you and ask you-

J.Y.:

Other states-

Speaker 3:

-for the set up-

J.Y.:

We have-

Speaker 3:

-and the basis of they establish the law? And they followed that-

J.Y.:

They followed.

Speaker 3:

-also. Other states in the United States-

J.Y.:

-in the states followed the same-

Speaker 3:

-and other cities.

J.Y.:

And other cities. But right now at present we do not have a real kosher butcher 49:00shop, because most of the meats come... at least are frozen and comes prepackaged, so it's hard for us to get a kosher slaughterer. Because the last one we had left for Israel, and couldn't have anyone to replace. It's like anything else, for a while we're getting meat from Cincinnati and Chicago, but they too had trouble because they didn't have enough slaughterers and they couldn't get the right type of meat.

J.Y.:

So we're depending mostly right now, on meat that's coming in from Chicago or 50:00Cincinnati, and they can purchase it either direct from Chicago or direct from Cincinnati, or we deliver to every home if you call for it.

Interviewer:

But there's no middle person here?

J.Y.:

There is no middle person at the present here, because chain stores are allowed to sell package meat. We have given them the permission to sell kosher package meat as long as the seal is not broken, they can sell as kosher. Once it's broken we have no authority over it, but we do not have any income on it.

Interviewer:

And that's important to keep these other things going.

J.Y.:

What we do have income is when the state took over the ritual bathhouse or 51:00mikvah, the building belong to Vaad Hakashruth, and the state paid us $42000 for it.

Speaker 3:

The one on Walnut Street.

J.Y.:

That's the one on Walnut, 28 East Walnut. And we built one on the Anshei Sfard grounds, a new mikvah. It was built with that profit, so the whole thing cost us about $15000. So we had some money left, and part of the money went to the Hebrew school, and part of the money went to the Vaad Hakashruth. And we invested the money in fireside building and loan and we get interest. That 52:00interest we pay the insurance for the mikvah, and also for the water and the heat. So we have enough for the present. Of course there's no other expenses we have, except plumbing expenses if anything goes wrong in the bathhouse.

Speaker 3:

It would be interesting to say, that truly, that you're kosher law was helped passed by an Irish Catholic-

J.Y.:

Yes. [crosstalk 00:52:40]

Speaker 3:

-senator. Senator Michael Duffy-

J.Y.:

Yeah, Senator Duffy, yes.

Speaker 3:

- who was very instrumental in getting it passed.

J.Y.:

Passed. And a Jewish senator by the name of [inaudible 00:52:59] he was from 53:00Covington, Kentucky. They brought it in... with most people, of course the Jewish population in the state of Kentucky is probably less than one percent, but the rest of the state went along with it as long as it didn't interfere with their interests, and didn't interfere with-

Speaker 3:

Humane laws.

J.Y.:

Humane laws, and so to find that kosher slaughtering is very humane, most humane there is. I'm not going to describe how it's been done, because that's not my job, but it's supposed to be very humane. So-

Speaker 3:

When it's done according to tradition.

J.Y.:

Traditional [crosstalk 00:53:53] it's been done for thousands of years.

Speaker 3:

[crosstalk 00:53:53] thousands of years old. Thousands of years old.

J.Y.:

Thousands of years old.

Speaker 3:

They follow the same ritualistic [crosstalk 00:54:01] tradition-

J.Y.:

Pattern. But I'm thinking the [inaudible 00:54:03]. Is there anything else if you we want to do? Sit down to talk to you about?

Interviewer:

Did you want to talk about the Hebrew home Four Courts, and your work there?

J.Y.:

Yes. While most of the people who lived downtown after the flood they started moving up in the highlands or so forth. So the congregations were getting empty there and they started building new congregations in the highlands, and so they also decided to build a Jewish home on old-

Speaker 3:

For the aged.

J.Y.:

A home for the aged, and the bought the grounds from the Taylor family, used to 55:00be Mayor Taylor in Louisville. He's still there.

Speaker 3:

It's on Millvale Road.

J.Y.:

It's on Millvale Road just-

Speaker 3:

Near Ellerbe.

J.Y.:

It runs right in the back of Millvale and Ellerbe between that. They have around 35 residents there, so they also have a chapel. We have services Friday night, Saturday morning, Saturday evening, and major holidays. The 100 it took to take care of it was a man by the name of Mr. Sal Waldman.

Speaker 3:

He was the first president-

J.Y.:

He was the first president of the chapel. It was built in '49. Yeah, in 1949.

Speaker 3:

I would think-

J.Y.:

But at that time they had the number of people they used to have service every day. They would have a number of people who were interested in that time. But somehow they've been getting less and less people there, so we're in trouble with the fire department and all that so they kind of cut down the number of residents. So they only have around 35 residents right now.

Speaker 3:

Well, but they have a hospital side, where they-

J.Y.:

Including the hospital.

Speaker 3:

There must be more than that.

J.Y.:

It's all together right now.

Speaker 3:

Right now.

J.Y.:

Because the fire department wouldn't allow very much. The hospital side it was 57:00having most start moving.

Speaker 3:

Well, I mean, they have a home for the aged, and they also have a-

J.Y.:

Hospital. They can build a hospital side right there on the first floor, and they have about 20 rooms for the hospital side, and the second floor is for residents who can-

Speaker 3:

You told me they can take care of themselves.

J.Y.:

-take care of themselves, yes. And those people, even the ones in the hospital, which are also coming to the chapel, but the-

Speaker 3:

Remember there must always be 10 men there-

J.Y.:

10 men to-

Speaker 3:

-and they go through the entire service that would be in any Sabbath synagogue. The whole... right?

J.Y.:

Yeah. At least that's-

Speaker 3:

It makes it more interesting to note that, and that none of the people that run 58:00the services... Joe, don't you think that would be interesting to say?

J.Y.:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

None of them are professional people, but they're all most of them are very educated and they are qualified to read the Torah, which many Rabbis cannot do. You see? So they-

J.Y.:

Everyone of them is qualified. So there are certain individuals who help make the up the chapel-

Speaker 3:

The minyan.

J.Y.:

The minyan groups, or minyan means a certain congregation. And none of them are professionals, they're only working men or professional-

Speaker 3:

Professional people.

J.Y.:

-men or business men.

Interviewer:

Well, you take part in this service, do you not?

J.Y.:

I take part in it. Since Mr. Waldman died, I took over and just the head of the department of the... I have charge over the chapel.

Speaker 3:

He and Mr. Waldman designated him as what? As his successor-

J.Y.:

His successor.

Speaker 3:

... to the... it's certainly not a dynasty but-

J.Y.:

Well, I should-

Speaker 3:

... to uphold the tradition-

J.Y.:

Traditional or-

Speaker 3:

... traditional services-

J.Y.:

... services-

Speaker 3:

... as they've always been through the centuries.

J.Y.:

In fact, he gave me the permission, which the board of directors gave him, full permission to do whatever he pleases. What he thinks is right, so he gave me the same permission. That I don't have to go to the board and ask for certain things, I just decide myself what to do. We never ask the board for money or anything else, and we do what's right to members that come to help at people 60:00from the services, try to get the money for themself. Certain things we have to buy, like we have to buy wine-

Speaker 3:

Sacramental wine.

J.Y.:

... right, sacramental wine, we also after services we have a certain kind of party. We have cake-

Speaker 3:

Kiddush.

J.Y.:

Kiddush you call. We have cakes and cookies, things like that. It's all being brought in by individual parties, and so we don't have to go into the home and ask them for funds, except for janitor service and keeping that place in perfectly good condition.

Speaker 3:

Beautiful chapel.

J.Y.:

It's a beautiful... The chapel has been donated by Shapira family. They're the 61:00ones who are also in the liquor business. They have their-

Speaker 3:

Liquor distilleries.

J.Y.:

... liquor distilleries. Can I mentioned the name of the distillery? Or-

Interviewer:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

J.Y.:

Let's see, it's called-

Speaker 3:

Heaven Hill-

J.Y.:

-Old Heaven Hill and Heaven Hill. And they also have a number of stores, called Louisville stores. They have a number of different cities, so they take a very big interest in the home and also many other Jewish affairs.

Interviewer:

I've noticed in reading in the Jewish post-

J.Y.:

What'd you get?

Interviewer:

... the opinion that-

J.Y.:

Yes.

Interviewer:

... quite a fundraising things.

J.Y.:

Yes. So Mr. Shapira was the one, he's dead now-

Speaker 3:

Mo Shapira.

J.Y.:

Was it Mo? I don't know what his name was.

Interviewer:

Mo Shapira... [inaudible 01:02:08].

J.Y.:

Maybe he was the one who helped to put up the old home. But anyway everything is running very smoothly as far as the Four Courts Quality Adult Home as far as the chapel's concerned. And I'm not-

Speaker 3:

You were one of the founders of it. Well, certain the day-

J.Y.:

Yes, I was the founder of the day school. I mentioned it before that I was the first one to organize the day... the first one to think of it, and to bring it up. And I was the first secretary, but I gave up the job to Mr. [inaudible 01:02:57], who has long been dead.

Speaker 3:

But his children went there and now his grandchildren.

J.Y.:

His children there and now the grandchildren are going to the day school, now.

Speaker 3:

As are ours. Even though when we say the school was organized, we mean people put up the money to buy the building and guarantee the salaries of the teachers, and they had a kosher kitchen and then after they moved to the-

J.Y.:

Jewish Community

Speaker 3:

For a while they were Anshei Sfard congregation, which is right next to-

J.Y.:

Next to-

Speaker 3:

... it's on-

Speaker 3:

I think it's interesting to know that, I think that the Vaad Hakashruth took 64:00care of what did we used to say it was four letter organization so to speak, it took care of the meat. It also took care of getting kosher milk for Passover, for the Passover season. It took of the mikvah, or the ritual bathhouse for religious purification. And it took take of the mohel, who had to be a strict Sabbath observer, he also had to be trained in the ways of performing the circumcision and he needless to say had to be a religiously observant man.

Speaker 3:

If a child had a circumcision under other circumstances, they were not considered a traditionally correct, and very often was it not true that even, in fact a friend of my son's. My son is a physician and he had a friend of his who's father is a physician of this young man is now a physician here in Louisville, also, and he married a girl from France whom he met in Israel. And the rabbi from her city took great pains to learn whether he had gone undergone 66:00circumcision in the proper manner.

Speaker 3:

My husband a cousin who was from a very prominent Jewish family from Indianapolis. Was a judge for many years, a very prominent judge, and he came to this city after he left his private practice in Indianapolis and he served as the mohel of a circumcision, man performing the circumcision for the city of Louisville, and also when there be soldiers, and any of them from Fort Knox and their wives would come and some of them would have children, they would have that done. And he served without any pay, recompense. And in fact, it cost him 67:00money, because he really took out insurance against malpractice, in case something would happen. And his name was Dr. Harry S. Ram. And I think he did it for what? Was it about 15 years?

J.Y.:

Oh, for heaven sake.

Speaker 3:

How many?

J.Y.:

Eight years.

Speaker 3:

Was it eight years?

J.Y.:

Eight years. Eight years, he wanted to... He was in the army four years in England as a surgeon. So four years, and then he was going to make six more years here in Louisville for veterans that came here, for veterans. So maybe 10 68:00years, so he would be eligible for army pension retirement.

Speaker 3:

Was he chief of admissions?

J.Y.:

He was chief of admissions-

Speaker 3:

For the veteran's hospital.

J.Y.:

... for the veterans. But he stayed on two years longer than he was supposed to, because he could have retired two years earlier. He would have stayed on and on, but they brought him to a place, which he was head man on 13th and Broadway, they closed that department and went to back to the main veteran's hospital, and so they brought in a man to be chief of that hospital who was not a medical man, who was an army man. And just couldn't-

Speaker 3:

So he left.

J.Y.:

So he left. Decided going back to... he left the [inaudible 01:08:57], and got him to do circumcisions for us, he-

Speaker 3:

There were-

J.Y.:

But now we're bringing in a man who's a surgeon from Cincinnati. He's a surgeon, but we have to pay him for it.

Speaker 3:

But these men had to also Sabbath observes aside from profession, they had to be very strict in their observance-

J.Y.:

Strict observers.

Speaker 3:

... or they were not considered [crosstalk 01:09:29]-

J.Y.:

The one I'm bringing up, he was a rabbi and he's a surgeon, now he's a practicing surgeon. He's a real religious man, never will there be a requirement we call him and he flies in.

Speaker 3:

And I think you should also make note that the Vaad Hakashruth had the congregations, they had a good [inaudible 01:09:55], they had members... they 70:00were ones down on Market street weren't they-

J.Y.:

Jefferson.

Speaker 3:

Jefferson?

J.Y.:

11th and Jefferson. 12th and-

Speaker 3:

11th and 12th and Jefferson-

J.Y.:

11th and 12th.

Speaker 3:

And they had representatives from Keneseth Israel, Adath Jeshurn, and Anshei Sfard, and really there even were the services many times were called on by some of the reform people-

J.Y.:

Reform, yeah... yes.

Speaker 3:

... who still observed certain ritual that were perhaps not exactly a formal part of their temple, but they there were people that did. And they all-

J.Y.:

Fort Knox and also people who are newcomers in the city, and who do not belong to a congregation, also call on the Vaad to furnish them with a memorial but 71:00it's our responsibility to get them one at our expense. Or else if he can pay for it we him for the money.

Speaker 3:

There have been and still are a number of professors, I'm sure, at the University of Louisville that are in some of the departments who are very observant and who make use of the kosher facilities. They make use of the mikvah, and they send their children to the day school, and I imagine many of them would not have come to the city had there not been these types of places.

J.Y.:

Yes, yes. A lot of them would not come to the city that... the first thing they ask is there a kosher ritual bathhouse, if there's a day school for their children, and a place guaranteed where they can get kosher food. And that helps bring certain professionals in the city otherwise you couldn't...

Interviewer:

If I was a newcomer to the city, how would I go about finding the essential information? What would I do?

J.Y.:

Well, you probably would call upon one of the congregations. Congregations would refer you to the right party.

Speaker 3:

Probably may have to the conference of Jewish organization also.

J.Y.:

Conference, but also those. Either one is comfortable.

Speaker 3:

The conference of Jewish organization.

J.Y.:

Usually, newcomer probably would know some much about the conference, they would 73:00look up in the telephone book and see for the orthodox congregations, and call on the congregation. And then they can get all the information and all the help possibly need.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, we like to say that when the day school was established it was based on the principle that any child, any family that wanted to give their children a Hebrew education could do so. If they could pay, they certainly were obliged to pay. If they could not pay, no child was ever refused admission for a financial reason. And we had children from all the orthodox congregations from the 74:00conservative and we always had them from the reform also. And we still do. It had flourished and they must of course, follow... it's a double program, they must take all the courses and qualify for everything offered in the public schools-

J.Y.:

According to state-

Speaker 3:

According to the state laws and the curriculum. Plus it's a double program, and they must study all the Hebraic subjects' bible, history, Hebrew language, modern history, modern Hebrew and actually the religious tradition-

J.Y.:

Religious tradition, yeah, religious laws.

Speaker 3:

Religious laws.

Interviewer:

Do you feel that this has had a really important part in keeping the cohesiveness of the orthodox community?

Speaker 3:

Yes.

J.Y.:

Very much so. I think without that I don't think it would have the rabbi come to Louisville, we wouldn't have a number of professional men coming to the University of Louisville without them. I doubt if Rabbi [inaudible 01:15:34] or Dr.-

Speaker 3:

[inaudible 01:15:37]-

J.Y.:

Or professor [inaudible 01:15:40] or many more would ever come to Louisville to work if-

Speaker 3:

Dr. [inaudible 01:15:46] also served on our board of directors. Naturally, being a man of great knowledge-

J.Y.:

Man of knowledge.

Speaker 3:

... and such. And we feel that especially since the Holocaust took and destroyed the seminaries, the great centers of learning, along with he people, but there were tremendous centers of learning and culture, we felt that you could educate the youth in a more intensive way and we never interfered in their private home or their beliefs. But they were taught according to the traditional beliefs, orthodox, but what they did in their home was their own prerogative. And it only 77:00went to... they added a year each year and we never had anyone of our family in the school until our grandchildren went, and now my daughter and my son-in-law are members of the board and they have also... we've all had varied offices since the... along with many other people and many of the founders.

Speaker 3:

And we feel that it has provided a continuity that we think is important to our culture, in which we think is important to all cultures, not only ours. If 78:00people desire that, if they desire it, we think it's a very important thing. Especially, in light of things that do go on today, we feel that it certainly will contribute, and we actually ourselves personally, even support parochial schools not of our religious beliefs, but others. Because no matter what they are, we feel that it is important. We have also supported the currently the Lebanese people who have many relatives here in Louisville, through the St. 79:00Michael orthodox church, and such. Because they were being murdered in the conflicts in the middle east, we feel obligated to help people like that.

Speaker 3:

And truly I think my husband did not say, he is a modest man, but his father was a graduate of a theological seminary, which was like, practically, if you were to say, the Harvard of rabbinical seminaries of Europe, of course it's gone. But there are remnants of them, who are now in Israel and such. And we have enjoyed 80:00it all. Sometimes I often wonder whether we had a fur store or if we were with the meat business or we were with... it seemed that people had someone for their children, circumcise their children, and if someone wanted to use the ritual bathhouse with mikvah for themselves or they used it for conversions to.

J.Y.:

And-

Speaker 3:

Purification-

J.Y.:

Purification.

Speaker 3:

... things, many, many things, and it has enriched our lives. We have seen many 81:00really outstanding people of our faith have come into our home, the chief rabbi of Ireland, and all kinds of rabbis and people connected, especially, with educational endeavors. Wouldn't you say?

J.Y.:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

Some of the greatest people in-

J.Y.:

Yeah, the greatest members.

Speaker 3:

... the country have come in, and women.

J.Y.:

And stayed at our house.

Speaker 3:

And been in our house and been guests.

J.Y.:

Dr. Lamb who is now-

Speaker 3:

Now president-

J.Y.:

... chief president of [inaudible 01:21:55] University.

Speaker 3:

And the rabbi who was Chief Rabbi of Ireland and who is Chief Rabbi-

J.Y.:

Of England.

Speaker 3:

... Great Britain.

J.Y.:

Britain, yeah.

Speaker 3:

England and Great Britain. In fact, he was snowed in. [laughing 01:22:08]

J.Y.:

Yeah, he was.

Speaker 3:

And-

J.Y.:

And while the head of the all the Jewish day schools in the United States and Canada Dr. Kaminetsky stayed here a number of times.

Speaker 3:

That's right. And we really feel that in our time that we have lived a great deal of the history of the school, of Judaism and its touch. And at times it's been controversial, because I think that anytime you do anything you have some people who lean one way and some people who lean the other.

J.Y.:

See this picture?

Speaker 3:

What is that?

J.Y.:

This was given I believe when I was president for 20 years-

Interviewer:

Who are the other individuals on here with you?

J.Y.:

Well, the one next to me, who was vice president, Ben Mason-

Speaker 3:

He's an attorney.

J.Y.:

Attorney. And this Robert Lyman to the left, he's our secretary. He's got all the information. [crosstalk 01:23:33]-

Interviewer:

Okay. He's the gentleman we would contact?

J.Y.:

Yes, he is-

Speaker 3:

He's director of research for Whip Mix Corporation, and he's a world famous chemical engineer. And he set up chemical standards for the Bureau of Standards for the United States government.

J.Y.:

He worked on the atomic bomb. It was during the war he was-

Speaker 3:

He didn't know it.

J.Y.:

He didn't know.

Speaker 3:

That he was-

J.Y.:

He was exempt from the army and he working-

Speaker 3:

Well, he was working on the... through his casting on a bomb site for the... was it for the atomic bomb?

J.Y.:

Atomic bomb. He didn't know-

Speaker 3:

Yes.

J.Y.:

... but he was [crosstalk 01:24:28]-

Speaker 3:

He didn't know it but he didn't know what he was working on, but that-

J.Y.:

But that's what it is.

Speaker 3:

... was Bob, and he's been secretary of the Vaad Hakashruth almost as long my husband had.

J.Y.:

No, not quite as long as-

Speaker 3:

Not quite.

J.Y.:

... about five years less.

Speaker 3:

Five years less and-

J.Y.:

Because I remember... this ones always been interested in Vaad Hakashruth.

Speaker 3:

Who is it?

J.Y.:

You recognized him?

Speaker 3:

I can't rabbi [inaudible 01:24:56]?

J.Y.:

No.

Speaker 3:

Then tell her it's on there. You're being recorded Joe. You don't want to waste her-

J.Y.:

No, I don't want to waste her-

Speaker 3:

... cassette. Tell them.

J.Y.:

See his father-in-law was Mr. Kellerman was also he was in charge of the Vaad Hakashruth in the cities, Ben... shoot, what's his last name, I can't remember?

Speaker 3:

Oh, oh, my good... Ben Krause.

J.Y.:

Krause, yeah.

Speaker 3:

Ben Krause. He was treasurer at that time.

J.Y.:

Yes.

Speaker 3:

And it has encompassed a great many people, but we would like to say that truthfully all these things that we are speaking about today, that down on West Broadway when the German Jews, who were the first Jews to settle in Louisville, 86:00they had a mikvah in their temple, or synagogue whatever they called it, in those days it's synonymous. The word, wouldn't you say-

J.Y.:

Yep.

Speaker 3:

... the word in synonymous? And that certainly was in the 19th century, early, wasn't it?

J.Y.:

Yes. It was 19th century [crosstalk 01:26:29] on Broadway, because it's-

Speaker 3:

On Broadway. And most of them at that time observed religious dietary laws. Some still might, some do not, and they also had a ritual bathhouse then and it's a 87:00connection with the past and with the future. I think that's the most important thing about it. And so we've had our part along with it.

J.Y.:

Well, I hope the information will help you somehow. I don't know-

Speaker 3:

And then our children, we always took our children on Saturday they had Sabbath services over at the day school. We took our children there, and then when the day school moved and went over the Jewish Community Center and most of the people who were going over to the day school were Sabbath observer and [inaudible 01:27:55], not some do and some don't. They go over the Four Courts 88:00and they have, it's a very beautiful chapel. And they have same services as conducted in the orthodox congregations, and our children went there. And we took our grandchildren there in baby buggies, and tailor tots. And our son, who's a physician now, whenever he's in town, he also goes there. And we all go together.

Speaker 3:

And there are a number of families who do the same. We're not alone. There are a number them. And strangely enough I would say that the services at the hoe for 89:00the aged the people participating in them are getting younger all the time. Wouldn't you say?

J.Y.:

Yes.

Speaker 3:

They're certainly much younger than when they began. There are teachers. There are professors there.

J.Y.:

Professors, mm-hmm (affirmative).

Speaker 3:

And there are associated professors all types, medical students. The man and his wife come there that are medical students. There's a man and his wife who are... this one man who is with the financial writer for the Courier-Journal, and he's 90:00observant, is he that?

J.Y.:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

He's an observant person too. And they come with the ones that have little babies. They wheel them in, and it's quite interesting. Rather than getting older it's getting younger.

J.Y.:

Younger. They're mostly newcomers in the city. Who are-

Speaker 3:

They've settled in this area.

J.Y.:

They settled in this area.

Speaker 3:

Well, the medical student and his wife, her father, certainly, he's an anesthesiologist, is he not?

J.Y.:

Yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Speaker 3:

And she happened to marry a young man from St. Louis, and now they come here. But she's not a newcomer to Louisville, I wouldn't say that. And there is-

J.Y.:

Professor who teaches at the University of Indiana-

Speaker 3:

Yes, and then we have a professor who teaches in the University of Indiana who comes there. [inaudible 01:31:16] is also, I'm sure, a graduate of seminary, although he doesn't practice as a rabbi or anything. I'm sure, he probably could. Couldn't [crosstalk 01:31:34]

J.Y.:

Yes. He's just like the... Do you know Dr. [inaudible 01:31:37]?

Interviewer:

No.

J.Y.:

No. You don't. He's-

Speaker 3:

Well, anyway-

J.Y.:

He teaches at University of Louisville.

Speaker 3:

Yes.

J.Y.:

He teaches Hebrew, and he's [inaudible 01:31:51]-

Speaker 3:

And it's strange the different things have evolved you see, with the Hebrew 92:00school taking over the bathhouse and then when the Hebrew school was moved and then with the demise of the mikvah, how an organization was formed, and then that's when my husband became president and they built a very, very modern facility.

J.Y.:

It was a modern country.

Speaker 3:

I know.

J.Y.:

Everything self service. You press a button and you have 700 gallons-

Speaker 3:

Put a little-

J.Y.:

... pool, 700 gallons of hot water in five minutes. Press a button and the water goes out.

Speaker 3:

There were representatives from each congregation who were members of the board. So it was always a democratic, really a democratic-

J.Y.:

Always.

Speaker 3:

And of course, usually, the people who were representatives were chosen for their background or their knowledge, so that they could carry on these traditions-

J.Y.:

Traditions.

Speaker 3:

... properly. And husband... weren't you one of the chairman for the sale of war bonds during-

J.Y.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Speaker 3:

... World War II? That he was too, along with, I don't know, a little bit of everything.

J.Y.:

Everything. In this country.

Interviewer:

And you wonder why we want to interview you.

Speaker 3:

No.

J.Y.:

Well, there was people who worked much harder. Of course-

Interviewer:

Well, you've done... You've just really contributed.

Speaker 3:

Well, the kosher law was really a very important. It stopped misrepresentation and it kept things on the proper keel. You know, as it should be. You have good people and you have charlatans and everything. So you have to take care of them too. But you never really had too much trouble. Most everyone observed it didn't they?

J.Y.:

Everyone, mm-hmm (affirmative).

Speaker 3:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). [crosstalk 01:35:01]-

J.Y.:

The only trouble we had is just mostly changing with the butchers. They didn't like the idea that we should give orders what to do.

Speaker 3:

Well, the one thing I will say, my husband foresaw many years ago and he recommended and the modern supermarket and the ways of applying these very ancient things in such a way so they could be just as modern as any other conveniences.

J.Y.:

Yeah, I've been bringing up at meetings as much as 15 years ago [the interview 96:00goes silent 01:35:51]

Speaker 3:

[inaudible 01:36:10] weren't there?

J.Y.:

[inaudible 01:36:13] everybody from Louisville was that you should take [crosstalk 01:36:17] of all the slaughterhouses before we started taking care it. That was [inaudible 01:36:25]. I believe this would be some of the regulations, functions, and [inaudible 01:36:31] if you want it you can have it.

Interviewer:

Okay. I'll make a copy and send this back to you. Okay, if you don't mind.

J.Y.:

That's all right.

Interviewer:

How about this? Could I make a copy of this?

J.Y.:

Yes you can. Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yes, you can have that and this. Mm-hmm (affirmative). And this is the last thing there was a... if you want a copy of this you could too.

Interviewer:

All right.

J.Y.:

Okay, take it to wholesales. This was recently surveys, three years ago. It was 97:00requested by Rabbi Glickman, but I can... You saw that Rabbi [inaudible 01:37:09] is the chief... that'll answer a lot of questions, about our history.

Interviewer:

Well, I really want to thank both of you. I just appreciate you talking with us and having the memories go down on tape, and you're free to add to them anytime you want to, and we'd certainly like to-

Speaker 3:

I don't know-

Interviewer:

... get the records that you have.

Speaker 3:

... [crosstalk 01:37:36] exactly, if it wasn't as historical as you wanted it to-

Interviewer:

The only thing I can think of right off... at the end that I did not ask or follow up on is your parents, how long they survived here in, and are they buried here in Louisville?

J.Y.:

They're buried in Louisville, yes. My father died in 1942. My mother died in... 98:00what was it '62-

Speaker 3:

No, [crosstalk 01:38:29]-

J.Y.:

... '65 I believe it was-

Speaker 3:

Joy was 16.

J.Y.:

16.

Speaker 3:

My daughter, Joy, was 16. Yeah, on Joy's 16th birthday.

J.Y.:

Yeah, Joy wasn't here-

Speaker 3:

That was in July, 1941... when was Pearl Harbor?

J.Y.:

'44.

Speaker 3:

'41.

J.Y.:

'41. It was a year after my father died.

Speaker 3:

So mother died in '42.

J.Y.:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

And your mother-

J.Y.:

Died 16 years afterwards-

Speaker 3:

Your mother died on Joy's 16th birthday.

J.Y.:

Birthday. So that's 15 years afterward then. So it was 15. She was a year old.

Speaker 3:

So it was in the 50s.

J.Y.:

Yeah. The 50s. '57, '58.

Interviewer:

I believe you told me, but right this minute I can't remember what was your involve din business wise when he was-

J.Y.:

Well, he was not much in business. He was a custom peddler. Those days he used to go out and sell dresses and clothing to house to house, and I wasn't there-

Speaker 3:

That's how a lot of the old stores... in fact, that's how Neiman and Marcus started.

Interviewer:

That's right.

J.Y.:

Started-

Speaker 3:

It's strange to say, but he never got that far.

J.Y.:

He didn't never got [crosstalk 01:39:37] far-

Interviewer:

And you were selling your Coke to the wrestling matches anyway too, weren't you?

Speaker 3:

Oh, yeah. I think what was very funny, and when he used to sell soft drinks, this was before my era, but he told me he... he's quite a slim man now, and he 100:00was about 115 pounds when we got married, and when he was younger they used sell soft drinks and racing forms and newspapers. They-

J.Y.:

Saturday night at 11 o'clock and get up Sunday morning at 4 o'clock and again to sell papers on Fifth and Walnut.

Speaker 3:

And then at the cathedral there [crosstalk 01:40:36] didn't you?

J.Y.:

Yeah, Fifth and Walnut.

Speaker 3:

I remember you told you used to see many, many people there. He [inaudible 01:40:41] to all the merchants downtown. The old merchants, a few of the young ones. One of the people at the race track asked him to become a jockey. And he 101:00was thrilled, he wanted to be one, but when he came back home to his father gave the red light. His father wouldn't hear of it. So the perspective jockey became a furrier. I thought it was funny myself.

Interviewer:

Well, racing loss was the furrier's gain, right?

Speaker 3:

It really was.

Interviewer:

Thank you so much.

Speaker 3:

You're welcome.