Interview with Sam Cecil, November 30, 1984

Partial Transcript: It's the 30th of November.

Segment Synopsis: Introduction to the project and to Mr. Cecil.

Partial Transcript: Sam, do you mind just talking about where you were born, when you were born, and maybe your childhood, youth, just a little bit?

Segment Synopsis: Mr. Cecil was born in 1918 in Nelson County, Kentucky. He began working in the distillery industry in 1937 at the T. W. Samuels Industry. He graduated from the University of Louisville and also served in the military during WWII.

Partial Transcript: Tell me about the T. W. Samuels operation at that time.

Segment Synopsis: Mr. Cecil relates the size, location, and operation capacity of the T. W. Samuels distillery. He also compares it to Maker's Mark. He explains why he did not go back to T. W. Samuels when he left the military in 1945.

Partial Transcript: Tell me about the work that would be done in a laboratory.

Segment Synopsis: Mr. Cecil talks about the kind of work he did in the laboratory. He also mentions the tensions between chemists and the older whiskey makers, who did not believe whiskey making was chemistry. He also talks about how the process at Maker's Mark was different from other distilleries, using Jack Daniels as an example.

Partial Transcript: Did you know Mr. Samuels when you were...?

Segment Synopsis: Mr. Cecil recalls how he knew both Mr. Samuels and his father. He also explains why the Samuels family did not own the T. W. Samuels distillery.

Partial Transcript: Let me ask you about that distillery during prohibition.

Segment Synopsis: Mr. Cecil talks about how prohibition affected the Samuels family and other distilleries. He explains why George Dampton was one of the few individuals who did not need financial backers to reopen his distillery after prohibition ended. He also talks about what Maker's Mark learned from Mr. Dampton and also how they differed from him.

Partial Transcript: Well let's see, we were, we've gotten you up to...

Segment Synopsis: Mr. Cecil talks about meeting Colonel Thompson, being an ordinance officer, and the length of his military term.

Partial Transcript: When you, when the war was over and you returned to the distilling business were things pretty...?

Segment Synopsis: Mr. Cecil says the war impacted whiskey production in a number of ways. There was a grain ration until 1946. Afterwards, the Marshall Plan was put into effect in 1947 and the distilleries were asked to shut down for two months. Then there was another grain ration.

Partial Transcript: But when you said you didn't want to go back to T. W. Samuels, why was that exactly?

Segment Synopsis: Mr. Cecil listed several reasons why he did not want to go back to T. W. Samuels after leaving the military, including that it had changed owners and he did not know if he wanted to go back to the distillery industry. He also briefly discusses alcohol production during the war.

Partial Transcript: What was it, what was Heaven Hill like when you joined them...?

Segment Synopsis: Mr. Cecil began working at the Heaven Hill distillery in 1945. He talks about its production, managers, and founding members (Harlem Mathis, Marion Muir, Dick Nolam, Joe Beam, and Eddie Shapiro). By the time he started working there, the Shapiro brothers had bought the others out. Mr. Cecil mentions that many individuals sold their distilleries during WWII and the Korean War.

Partial Transcript: Well, it was right '53 that Mr. Samuels started out.

Segment Synopsis: Mr. Cecil talks about Mr. Samuels inviting him to come work for Maker's Mark in 1952, his concerns about working there, and why he decided to come to Maker's Mark in 1954. He worked with Elmo Beam as Plant Manager until Mr. Beam died in 1955 - then Mr. Cecil took over as Production Manager until he retired in 1980.

Partial Transcript: Can you talk a little bit about what do you know about how Bill Samuels managed to finance it?

Segment Synopsis: Mr. Cecil says Hubert Buckner was the Senior Vice President of First National Bank and a close friend of Mr. Samuels. Mr. Cecil also talks about some of the jobs Mr. Samuels had before opening Maker's Mark.

Partial Transcript: What size of an operation was it when you first started out in '54, in '53, '54?

Segment Synopsis: Mr. Cecil recalls the production, days of operation, size of employment, and type of employees at Maker's Mark when it first opened.

Partial Transcript: What about that planet before Samuels took it over?

Segment Synopsis: Mr. Samuels bought Happy Hollow from Dave Karp. Mr. Cecil talks a little bit about Mr. Karp and why he decided to sell his distilleries.

Partial Transcript: We were talking about those first years.

Segment Synopsis: Mr. Samuels decided to go into the bottling business, so Mr. Cecil renovated the bottling house. When they started bottling Burks Spring, they were not very successful and stopped bottling in 1957. Maker's Mark was ready for distribution in 1958.

Partial Transcript: Was the name established long before that or...?

Segment Synopsis: Mr. Cecil recalls that Mr. Samuels hired George Shields in 1957, from the agency French and Shields. They came up with the name Maker's Mark. Mr. Cecil also talks about how Mr. Samuels lost the case to name the distillery W. T. Samuels.

Partial Transcript: Tell me a little more about Mr. Samuels' style of running the place.

Segment Synopsis: Mr. Cecil says Mr. Samuels was a relaxed employer, who left it to Mr. Cecil to manage the plant. Mr. Cecil talks about the different departments Mr. Samuels worked in, although his main expertise was in finances.

Partial Transcript: When young Bill Samuels joined the company, it was some years later than that...

Segment Synopsis: Mr. Cecil says the younger Mr. Samuels joined Maker's Mark around 1968, soon after he graduated from Vanderbilt Law School. Mr. Cecil talks about the younger Mr. Samuels visiting the distillery as a kid and some of the positions he held when he first joined Maker's Mark.

Partial Transcript: You said you all began to break-even in '62, did it continue to slowly continue to make a mark or...?

Segment Synopsis: Mr. Cecil says the finances of Maker's Mark improved from 1960, when it broke even. He discusses some of the different export agencies they worked with and remembers trying to distribute Scotch whiskey.

Partial Transcript: Did Mr. Samuels Sr. stay in the highest management post in the company until his retirement?

Segment Synopsis: Mr. Cecil says Mr. Samuels maintained the highest management post of the company until he retired. In 1977 or 1978, he turned the position of president over to his son, but remained the Chief Executive Officer and chairman of the board.

Partial Transcript: Tell me about the Hiram Walker buyout.

Segment Synopsis: Mr. Cecil retired in 1980, but remained a member of the board of directors. Mr. Samuels met with Mr. Cecil to talk about selling the distillery and Mr. Cecil remembers being worried for the employees. Mr. Cecil discusses the differences between working for Mr. Samuels Senior and Mr. Samuels Junior and speculates why Mr. Samuels Senior decided to sell the distillery.

Partial Transcript: Bill was a product of the depression, just like I am.

Segment Synopsis: Mr. Cecil recounts that his dad died in 1932, leaving his mother with eight children. He recalls some of the jobs his dad had, including at a few distilleries.

Partial Transcript: You mentioned a minute ago Charlie Miller's wholesale operation...

Segment Synopsis: Mr. Cecil states that in the early days of T. W. Samuels, they had a sales agency called Charles F. Miller, which they eventually bought. Mr. Cecil relates why T. W. Samuels bought the Charles F. Miller agency.

Partial Transcript: You were in this industry a long time ago and still keep up with it a little bit...

Segment Synopsis: Mr. Cecil thinks bourbon will always have a place, but does not think sales will ever be like it once was. He talks about Jack Daniels, Beam, Heaven Hill, and Hiram Walker (Maker's Mark) and how they have done in the last few years and how he thinks they will be doing in the next several years.

Partial Transcript: I wondered if you'd want to talk about some of the changes you've observed over the years from the late 1930s until now.

Segment Synopsis: Mr. Cecil says the biggest change is in the tax structure. Some other changes are in the attitudes of government inspectors and government regulations. Mr. Cecil relates why he thinks the loosening of government regulations could lead to some individuals taking advantage of the system.

Partial Transcript: Did you ever read that book Red Liquor?

Segment Synopsis: Mr. Cecil talks about two books about the distillery industry that he enjoyed.