Interview with Paul Goffner August 29, 2019

JOSEPH MANNING:

Hey, my buddy Paul Goffner on whatever day this is. August. Paul, what was--when did you first start working at Miles Park? Oops, phonecall.

PAUL GOFFNER:

'65. [Takes a phone call.]

JM:

All right, so you said 1969 or '65?

PG:

'65 or '66, yeah. I used to go down there and walk a few horses before I went to school, you know?

JM:

Where'd you go to school?

PG:

DuValle. Carter DuValle.

JM:

Oh, okay.

PG:

It was Carter DuValle here.

JM:

Carter DuValle--now is that the medical center now?

PG:

Yeah.

JM:

Okay, that's what I figured. So '65. How'd you get over to Miles Park? Like why did you show up there? Somebody told you?

PG:

Well, friend of mine, his father was a trainer for Slim Curtis, you know. And he would exercise on them, so one morning, he took me over with him, you know. Shoot. I went over there with him and started walking hot. Walk a few before we 1:00go to school, you know. In them days, hell, they wouldn't give us but fifty cent a head--a quarter, fifty cent a head.

JM:

So how much could you make in a morning before school?

PG:

About three or four dollars. But three or four dollars then is like 50 dollars now, you know?

JM:

Did that before school? That's pretty good.

PG:

Yeah, yeah.

JM:

So how long did it take to walk a hot? 20 minutes?

PG:

Yeah.

JM:

Okay.

PG:

Some of them 25, 30 minutes. Some of them just walked till they get to the stalls, you know?

JM:

Uh huh.

PG:

It ain't how long you walk them--it's the cool out. That's the thing. You just got water off, you know. Let them--take them to urinate and that's it. Time is not really a thing, you know?

JM:

But who says when the horse is done walking?

PG:

He do.

JM:

The horse does?

PG:

He'd just go drinking and, you know, cool out, yeah.

JM:

Okay.

PG:

And you had to give him some water every other round, let him cool off slowly.

JM:

Yeah, yeah. I take it that walking the hot, you turn left and that's pretty much 2:00it. Not much to it.

PG:

Yeah.

When was it that you started kind of learning stuff about horses, knowing how to deal with them. I mean, that doesn't come automatically.

PG:

No, not automatically. You got to have a teacher.

JM:

Who was your teacher?

PG:

Old R.E. Vance. Well, first man I walked horses for was Ham Moore. Old man Ham Moore. He had a horse--a pony called Gay the Wonder Horse. I told you about him? The one that drive the car, like a convertible and all that? He was the first horse I walked.

JM:

At Miles Park?

PG:

Yeah. At Miles Park. And old man Pollacks. He had a horse called You Three. That was really the first thoroughbred I walked was that horse there. You Three.

JM:

That was Ham Morris's horse too?

PG:

No, that was a man named Pollocks. Mr. Pollocks. Yeah. He gave me a shot.

JM:

Uh huh. So Ham Morris showed you a thing or two?

PG:

I forget his first name. We all just called him Mr. Pollocks, yeah.

JM:

Well, so was he there when they had the fire?

PG:

Yeah.

JM:

What year was that, '60...?

PG:

I can't remember. Maybe '66? '67? I was on my way downtown when I seen all that smoke. I got off the bus and went back down to the West End, that's where the fire was.

JM:

That's right.

PG:

There were horses all over the place. That was something terrible.

JM:

Yeah, sounds awful. Well, tell me about it. What was the scene like when you got there?

PG:

Like I said, horses running all over the place. You try to let them out, but they run back in the stalls; that's the only thing they know; they're in there 23 hours a day. That's home, you know?

JM:

How many horses you think got lost that day?

PG:

Ain't no telling, ain't no telling.

JM:

Yeah

PG:

...got a lot of horses burn up. Same thing down at Ellis Park, they had a fire 4:00down there. [Unintelligible.]

JM:

When did you start traveling to Ellis, kind of getting out of town? How did that start?

PG:

Well, one summer, you know, when school was out, we went down there for a few months, and then when school started, we was back home.

JM:

What did your folks think about it all?

PG:

My mother, you know, she was all right with it. She was all right with it, you know? As long as I was getting all my school things. You know, she needed help anyway.

JM:

That's right. You send some of that money back home during the summer?

PG:

Yeah, I bought my own school clothes and everything, you know. Helping her out. Because my father, they was separated, divorced and stuff.

JM:

Yeah.

PG:

There was eight of us. So I said, "I'm out of here."

JM:

I guess so, yeah. She got eight of you, would be pretty good if one of them take care of himself. Man, that must have been pretty cool. Well, you're 16, 17 years old. You got money in your pockets.

PG:

Oh, yeah, I thought I was a Casanova. [both laugh] It was fun, but it ain't like it used to be.

JM:

Nah. You buy you a car when you came back?

PG:

Huh?

JM:

When you got back from Ellis Park, did you get a ride?

PG:

I bought a car down there.

JM:

No shit.

PG:

I didn't have no license, but I bought a car, I had to leave it down there. I won it in a crap game.

JM:

Did you really?

PG:

Yeah, $75 shot. 19--what was it? 1957 Pontiac. Running something good[?]

JM:

$75 shot means that you put down $75 on it?

PG:

Yeah, and he put his car keys up. 4.

JM:

No way. What did you roll? Do you remember?

PG:

4. I just said, 4. One of the the hardest part to make, they said. 4 and 10... you can win a lot of bets on there.

JM:

*impressed whistle* You know what? I don't know how that game works. So you 6:00rolled a 4 and then do you bet? Because you got to roll it again. Right?

PG:

Yeah, gotta roll it again.

JM:

So you rolled 4. And that dude says, "I'll give you my car keys."

PG:

He say, "I bet you gonna borrow it. Get 4, you gonna borrow it." Yeah, yeah, basically that's what he said.

JM:

Man alive.

PG:

Yeah.

JM:

Dang, so you come back from summer away, you got a car? You got clothes?

PG:

Money in my pocket.

JM:

Uh huh.

PG:

Girls following me.

JM:

That's right. She's inside, Paul, she can't hear you. And so you went back to Carter DuValle--you graduated?

PG:

No. I didn't graduate.

JM:

So, tell me more about how you just kind of got in the biz. You just started...

PG:

Well, old R.E. Vance, he said, "Well, you know how to walk 'em, I'm gonna teach you how to rub 'em." He just told me and showed and, you know, basically he 7:00showed me what he wanted me to do. "Do this or do that."

JM:

What did he want you to do?

PG:

Become a groom. Take care of them, groom them up, you know, their legs and bathe them and all that, you know. What a groom does.

JM:

Were you good at it?

PG:

Well, if you could see all the pictures I got... [both laugh] Every job I went on I was winning races. This is not too many jobs. I got paid over my jobs, you know?

JM:

Right, for how long?

PG:

6, 7, 8, 9, 10 years, whatever.

JM:

So with Mr. Vance for a pretty long time.

PG:

Oh, yeah, long time.

JM:

That's David's dad?

PG:

Yeah, David that's his father.

JM:

And he used to work for Lassiter, right?

PG:

Yeah, he trained horses for Lassiter. He did pony horses for his father, you know, when he was a pony boy.

JM:

Oh, okay.

PG:

He was a young man, too, then, yeah. He was just a couple of years older than I am.

JM:

That's right.

PG:

I'm 72. I think David's 74 now. 74, 75. Yeah. We were all coming up together.

JM:

So you were working for Mr. Vance at Miles Park. Did you ever--

PG:

Yup. Miles Park, Ellis Park. That was the first person I left out of town with.

JM:

Really? Did you like him?

PG:

Yeah, I loved him, he was like a father to me.

JM:

Is that so?

PG:

Yeah, he was good to me, yeah.

JM:

Did you--

PG:

Worked for him for years. Then I went to work for his son. I was working for a guy named Walter Bender. He [R.E. Vance] came back to Louisville one year. He came in there and he asked me how much the guy was paying me, you know, and I told him. He said, "Put that shit down and come on." I was glad to work for him. Because he had broke his pelvis [unintelligible] bulls. He rode them damn 9:00bucking mules. Or bulls. [Unintelligible] bulls.

JM:

We're talking about David?

PG:

No, his father.

JM:

Oh, okay. His dad broke his hip. Okay. He was bullrider?

PG:

Yeah, he wanted me to take care of the horses because he was in so much pain. I went back over there. You know, "I'm getting ready to retire, and I want you and this guy named Tom Cotch to take these horses to the Hot Springs," and that was '69, that was the year I got married.

JM:

Uh huh.

PG:

But I didn't go there. I went to New York to visit my mother-in-law. I was going to go when I got back, but me and my wife and my daughter, we went New York to visit her mother. That was the longest visit I ever had.

JM:

How long?

PG:

7 years. 7 years. We came back here and then went back to New York.

JM:

What did you get up to when you're in New York?

PG:

Huh?

JM:

What did you get up to up there? Did you work at Saratoga?

PG:

I worked at Belmont. I've always stayed with the Belmont. Because we 10:00shipped--Aqueduct ain't got but like 7 barns. 6 or 7 barns. We ship them from Belmont to Aqueduct and then we ship them from Belmont to Saratoga. But we stayed with the Saratoga. [unintelligible.] About a month, yeah. [Unintelligible]

JM:

So when did you finally get posted up at Churchill?

PG:

Huh?

JM:

When did you start working at Churchill?

PG:

All the time.

JM:

Like when you were working at Miles Park, you were over here too?

PG:

Well, when Miles Park closed, then the shit[?] come to Churchill. When Churchill closed, you go to Miles Park. Miles Park to Ellis Park and then you made the circus.

JM:

Yeah.

PG:

Ellis and Miles and [unintelligible].

JM:

But I mean, is it the case that the trainers who kept their horses at Miles Park--what kind of track was it? Tell me about Miles Park, what was it like?

PG:

Miles Park was like the bull run[?] You know, little bitty tracks.

JM:

Okay.

PG:

Because it used to be the fair. Kentucky State Fair was there.

JM:

Okay.

PG:

After the fair, they laid in the race tracks. It was just a little [bull riding?].

JM:

Uh huh, okay.

PG:

What, a half mile radius.

JM:

Okay. So pretty small.

PG:

Yeah, it was real small, you wouldn't have hardly made that turn there.

JM:

I was gonna say, it must be kind of hard on the horses to make that turn.

PG:

It was, yeah.

JM:

What kind of what kind of horses ran there? I mean--

PG:

All kind. Back in them days, you know, it was just a different game back then. It's all about money now.

JM:

Right.

PG:

In them days, they used to run the Junior Derby down there and everything, you know. Yeah.

JM:

Dang.

PG:

At Miles Park. I don't know why they didn't keep that as a training center, you know?

JM:

What happened to it?

PG:

They sold it to Wayne Supply Company. After he got through running thoroughbreds, these little quarterhorses down there.

JM:

Oh really?

PG:

Yeah, they had quarterhorses, they had mule races and all that.

JM:

So you hear that Miles Park was kind of like a--it was kind of like the little stepchild of Churchill Downs.

PG:

Yeah.

JM:

Yeah, it was like a fair.

PG:

Yeah, like a fair.

JM:

But I mean, I'm trying to--being that I was never there, what was it like? What was the stable area like? Who hung out there? What kind of environment was it?

PG:

It was a good environment then, back then, but you know, like it was...it's not like New York, California and all that. That's why we all thought back in them days New York or California, you go there, you're on the top of the world. But it wasn't like that. When I went to New York and [unintelligible] I ever saw in my life. I look at the bandages they put on, I said, "Man, how y'all do that?" You know, my first guy I worked for, who was that--Mickey Trainer[?]? No, not Mickey--that was Peter Howell[?]. I went in there to put on them polos he's all, 13:00"Ah, no, no. I put on all of my bandages after." Well, you welcome, because where I come from, we do that, you know. Because if something happens, it's my fault. Man, I put them bandages on, had that cigarette, he said to me, "Oh, go on, you put on all the bandages. You'll take care of this one horse and do the bandages, yeah." [laugh]

JM:

Really?

PG:

Man, they had things all around the dadgum Coronet van [?] and everything, you know. I just didn't understand it. All of 'em talking like that.

JM:

Huh. I mean--

PG:

You know, I start showing them how to [unintelligible] I said, "Do it over, it ain't right."

JM:

So tell me what would it mean to do a figure eight instead of whatever sloppy shit they were doing.

PG:

Figure eight means you gotta, when you wrap it around their ankles--

JM:

Uh-huh

PG:

--the bandage comes in like this.

JM:

That's right.

PG:

But they just had it straight down where it wasn't no bend in it. I couldn't 14:00understand [unintelligible]...but see, they put a figure eight at the bottom in the front like that, you know?

JM:

Uh huh.

PG:

Yeah. So you have, you get more traction.

JM:

[impressed whistle] Dang, who taught you how to do that?

PG:

I taught myself.

JM:

Really?

PG:

It was old man Vance. Because like I said, I used to make them take them off and make them do it again.

JM:

Right.

PG:

That's what he used to do, "That ain't right! Goober, take 'em off!"

JM:

What did he call you?

PG:

Goober. He couldn't hear. He had hearing aids. So when he wrote out my check for the first time, he said, "What you say your name was?" I said, "Paul Goffner." "Goober?" "Goffner!" "Goober?" He wrote my check out "Paul Goober" for ten years, you know? [both laugh] But they cashed it. [laughing]

JM:

Ah, shit! That's funny, man.

PG:

So on draw days, [Unintelligible.] He cut that hearing aid off.

JM:

Oh man

PG:

I go to him, I said, "Turn that son of a bitch on, I need some money." [Unintelligible] He was a good guy.

JM:

Man. Was he a pretty good trainer?

PG:

Hell of a trainer. Hell of a trainer. Won a lot of races. That's where Dave Vance got his knowledge from.

JM:

Really? How many was in the stable?

PG:

Dave Vance got his knowledge from his old man, too.

JM:

Wow.

PG:

All the veterinarians said, "He don't need no vet." We have a horse, he'd come out that room-- He'd look around there [unintelligible].

JM:

Yeah. Oh hell.

PG:

He won many races.

JM:

And then when they closed Miles down, he got a stable over here?

PG:

Yeah.

JM:

How many horses did he stable over there?

PG:

He always kept a lot of horses. He had a whole barn full. He had barn 7[?] stayed full. One day one of the owners come in there with a damn conditioning book. "Well, Mr. Vance, look here, this is the race I want to run this horse in." He didn't say nothing, he just walked up the corridor--in them days, you had to go to the kitchen to use the phone. He walked up to the kitchen and come back. Not two hours later, these two vans was sitting there. He said, "You want to train them, you sons of bitches? You train them. Load 'em up, Paul!" [Greets passerby] He said, "Load 'em up!" I said, "What about--?" He said, "Don't worry about that now. [Unintelligible] He come in here telling me how to train these horses?" He told him, "You're the owner, not the trainer. *I* do this." Aw, hell, is it 12:00 already?

JM:

Yeah.

PG:

He said, "I'm the trainer, you're the owner."

JM:

Dang.

PG:

"Don't come in here telling me what." He [the owner] said, "Aw, Mr. Vance--" He said, "I don't want to hear it." He shipped all that man's horses out. Two days later, he had another barn full.

JM:

Oh, he shipped all of them out?

PG:

All of them!

JM:

Damn!

PG:

What was his name? B.M. Hawkins was his name, the owner. He had car lots and everything in Indiana.

JM:

Yeah, that's what you hear that when they started putting that conditioning book out, the owners got all kind of head full of ideas. What else? What else can you think of that changed the game from kind of small mom-and-pop outfits to where we are today?

PG:

Money. Money. All of these days, all these horses breaking down, and all of them want to blame it on the track and all that shit. In the old days, when we get them two-year-olds in, they'd break them and turn them out. Check their knees, 18:00make sure the knees are closed before we worked them and everything. See, they don't do that no more.

JM:

How long did you turn them out for?

PG:

Till they get ready to run. Sometimes they was two- or three-year-olds, some of them. But the money so good nowdays, you know, a two-year-old is... A lot of them break down, a lot of them you don't even hear about that they paid millions of dollars for, they don't even [unintelligible]. [Conversation with passer-by 19:00about a bike and agreement to take a break.]

JM:

All right, man, I'll catch up with you again.

PG:

I'm gonna get you them pictures, man.

JM:

That sounds good. Do you know where they are?

PG:

Yeah, some of them.

JM:

Really?

PG:

Yeah.

[break in audio]

JM:

All right, I'm with Goffner here on June 5. So you're up in New York with who?

PG:

I was with Sheryl[?] Ward at the time. At the time he was rubbing Secretariat. I 20:00had Forego. And Richard had...damn, what's the horse's name? Shady Green [?]. Yeah, yeah, Richard was rubbing Shady Green[?] and Forego, he was a two-year-old at the time. He never got to run as a two-year-old.

JM:

So this was 1975?

PG:

Nah, shit, that was before then. Hell, he won the Derby in '73.

JM:

Okay.

PG:

That was '72?

JM:

So you're up in New York at where?

PG:

Belmont Park.

JM:

And you're saying that, like, you were up there with Forego and Secretariat was--?

PG:

I was working for Sheryl[?] Ward and the guy that was rubbing Forego, he had to go home. He was from Jamaica. Man named Dan. He was from Jamaica so he went home, and I had to start taking care of Forego.

JM:

Just like that?

PG:

Yeah. Just like that.

JM:

What happened to Dan?

PG:

Huh?

JM:

What happened to the Jamaican dude?

PG:

Oh, he came back, you know.

JM:

But I'm saying like--

PG:

He had an emergency.

JM:

He had some kind of emergency? And so somebody had to rub this really good horse?

PG:

About that time, that's when they turned Forego out to operate on him, too, you know? Because he had some bad ass ankles. I said, "When y'all operate on him, better operate on them ankles, too." While they was operating on his ankles, I said, "I better cut him or he won't be shit." He could hurt you. As a two-year-old he was 17 hands, Forego was. He couldn't get through that door, he was so tall.

JM:

Wow, man. So that's what I heard too. Actually, I was just in the track kitchen with Catfish and Phil What's-his-name?

PG:

Phil Thomas?

JM:

Old ponytail Phil with the mustache.

PG:

Phil Thomas, yeah.

JM:

He said--we got to talking about Forego, and I was like, "Yeah, I mean, Goffner rubbed Forego." He said Forego was a murderer.

PG:

He was.

JM:

Tell me about it.

PG:

He'd hurt you, man. You'd go to rub on him...he'd just. You know, he was just ornery. He was just being a colt. But he was so damn big, I guess he knew he could bully you.

JM:

So what was it like to try to rub him?

PG:

Shoo... If you didn't know what you was doing, you was in trouble.

JM:

Huh. Did he ever hurt you?

PG:

No, not me. Every job I had, I always had the toughest son-of-a-guns in the job.

JM:

Really?

PG:

Yeah.

JM:

Wow.

PG:

Yeah. But I could handle them. I knew how.

JM:

How what?

PG:

How to rub them.

JM:

So you knew how to kind of calm them down a little bit? How?

PG:

I would rub them. [looking at a picture] Look at Tommy Long.

JM:

Clowning around, huh?

PG:

He's one had a hell of race down there at Miles Park.

JM:

No!

PG:

Oh, they had mule races down there.

JM:

Come on, man, I never heard that.

PG:

...winned a big race down there. They swear to God, that mule was a thoroughbred. Oh, he winned so easy. Yeah. Yeah. He rode the mule races at Miles Park.

JM:

Where did he get these mules?

PG:

Ain't no telling where Tommy Long get anything. It was like them hogs and all that shit. He gave Dr. Harthill a pig, you know?

JM:

Okay.

PG:

So Doc Harthill let him raise the pig. So when he got big enough to slaughter, come slaughter time, he comes up to Doc, "Guess what? Your pig died." [laughs] "All them pigs of mine died."

JM:

So wait, how many pigs did he have out there?

PG:

Oh man, that's when he lived out in Newburgh. He had quite a few.

JM:

Yeah, I remember you told me this. "Sorry Doc, your pig died." [both laugh]

PG:

"Doc, I'm sorry, but your pig died."

JM:

So he had some kind of big piece of property out there?

PG:

Yeah. He had--

JM:

Like how big you think it was?

PG:

It was pretty damn big. Well see, I grew up out there, out Newburgh.

JM:

Oh, I didn't know that.

PG:

I moved to Newburgh when I wasn't but 11 years old.

JM:

Whereabouts?

PG:

Oh, Newburgh Road. Indian Trail.

JM:

Okay, so pretty far out.

PG:

Oh, yeah, it's far out.

JM:

So that's like almost all the way to Bardstown Road, right?

PG:

It was country then, you know? Right there by GE and all of that.

JM:

Was GE even there at that point?

PG:

Yeah. GE's been there for years. Yeah.

JM:

Can you describe like what--I always heard it was pretty country out there. It's kind of swampy too, right?

PG:

Yeah, kinda. It was... shit, like I said, we didn't have to come to town for nothing but to buy shoes or clothes and stuff. And we raised all ours--had our own garden, had pigs and chickens and goats and hogs. [laughs]

JM:

Oh, I didn't know that.

PG:

Oh yeah.

JM:

How many was in your family?

PG:

Oh, in my family, eight of us. My mother she had four boys and four girls.

JM:

How'd you learn how to tend all those animals?

PG:

We had horses. When I was a kid, we had plough horses, you know?

JM:

Really?

PG:

Yeah. Shit, man, you're talking about... '47, '4--oh wow. In '48 I was 2 years old, shit, let me see. You're talking about the '50s.

JM:

So in the '50s, somebody said, "Paul go out and plough the garden"?

PG:

Shit, no, we just had to hold the horses, you know. That shit, man, they looked like they were big as this building to me.

JM:

I bet.

PG:

They were both named after my father and my uncle.

JM:

What were their names?

PG:

Pete and Its.

JM:

Its?

PG:

Its, yeah.

JM:

That was your uncle's name?

PG:

That was his nickname. My father's name was Clark, you know? They called him Its 26:00and Clark, yeah. Them pigs looked like they were that big, them staff[?] horses. They plough and shit.

JM:

Wow, so y'all had like a big old plough system? You just rig them up and just run them through the dirt?

PG:

Run them through the dirt to turn the dirt over. And, uh, shit, they had--Eugene Roche. [looking at pictures]

JM:

Yep. How about that?

PG:

But damn. There's Paul Goffner. What It Is.

JM:

Hey, man, guess what?

PG:

Henry Coleman. Huh?

JM:

I think that's gonna be the cover of the book.

PG:

Oh, yeah?

JM:

What do you think of that? I asked you a couple of weeks ago and I thought you said it was a pretty good idea.

PG:

Yeah.

JM:

Does that sound cool to you?

PG:

Sounds great to me.

JM:

What do you think of this title? I tried to come up with something, but it was something Richard said when we're all sitting together. "Better lucky than good."

PG:

Yeah. Because luck got a lot to do with it, I'm telling you.

JM:

Yeah, man, I think we're gonna use that for the--it's just such a cool photograph, you know?

PG:

[looking at photograph] Henry. Yeah. Where's Mark Casse at? Down there somewhere.

JM:

So was What It Is Mark's horse or his dad's horse?

PG:

Mark?

JM:

Casse.

PG:

Yeah. Well--no, it was Mark's, yeah. His dad, he wasn't--his dad was a businessman.

JM:

Oh, okay.

PG:

He went to UofL Business School and all that.

JM:

Okay.

PG:

He was a heck of a guy. He went and got a standing ovation[?] over at Churchill one year. On the summertime races.

JM:

Really?

PG:

Yeah.

JM:

Was that 1984?

PG:

Somewhere around in there, yeah.

JM:

Man. So when you all tilled up the field out there in Newburgh, then what happened? Like your mom would take care of the garden? Everybody would?

PG:

Yeah, so we'd plough and plant our corn and peas and carrots and everything. We had to have a garden. I got like that--right there. [shows JM a scar.]

JM:

What? What's that?

PG:

A cornstalk went through there and come out there. Friend of mine pushed me like 28:00that on that damn--

JM:

Oooh, damn. Did you have to go the hospital?

PG:

Mm hm. My mother kept that splinter till she died.

JM:

She kept what?

PG:

The splinter they took out of that cornstalk.

JM:

She kept it?

PG:

Yeah. She put it in a little brown bag. She kept it.

JM:

Why do you think she kept it?

PG:

I don't know.

JM:

She was probably scared to death.

PG:

Nah, she wasn't scared of nothing. Not her. Country girl, they ain't scared of shit. [both laugh] Oh boy.

JM:

Did she grow up out Newburgh?

PG:

Yeah. Yeah.

JM:

So when you--I'm trying to figure out--Tommy Long was from Highland Park. But when did he have a place out in Newburgh?

PG:

I was a kid.

JM:

So you knew Tommy Long in Newburgh?

PG:

Yeah. I don't know whether he went from Newburgh to Highland Park. I don't know what the hell? You know, but I know he was out there when I was a kid.

JM:

Okay, raising hogs and stuff.

PG:

Yeah.

JM:

Messing with horses.

PG:

Yeah. 19...57? When did the Edsel come out? Ford Edsel came out in '56 or '57. We had a guy that lived out there, he outran that [unintelligible] for a block.

JM:

Really?

PG:

Yeah.

JM:

Whose Edsel?

PG:

It's a car that Ford made.

JM:

I know, but who had one?

PG:

Oh, somebody out in the hood. I don't know who that was.

JM:

He outran it, huh?

PG:

Yeah. They raced from [Turner's?] to the park. Yeah. He was a fast dude, man.

JM:

Dang, that's pretty fast.

PG:

Yeah.

JM:

It was all dirt roads out there at that point, right?

PG:

All except for Indian Trail and Newburgh Road. But all the side lanes and all that shit was cinders and dirt and mud. [laughs]

JM:

How much how much property you reckon y'all were sitting on?

PG:

Wasn't a whole lot--about 4 or 5 acres, I don't know. I don't know, really. [Mutters]

JM:

Got any pictures of those days?

PG:

Like I said, I had--when I won the Derby trial, Mark Casse bought me a car. And I was out of town and my wife moved. And she had all that stuff in the trunk of the car and my brother--she asked him to move the car because I was out of town. He moved it straight to Georgia--Atlanta. Oh man all my old pictures from Miles Park and--

JM:

No way!

PG:

Oh yeah, he went down there and got busted and locked up. I don't know what they did with the car. Yeah, I lost a lot of pictures and stuff...[unintelligible] 31:00from Miles Park and all that.

JM:

Man, that's rough.

PG:

Yeah, it was.

JM:

You told me one time that--this is something I'm really curious about. You said Tommy Long, Blackfoot Indian. Nobody but you has ever said that. What do you know about that?

PG:

Nobody ever said nothing about that?

JM:

Uh huh, uh huh.

PG:

Oh man, I swear he was a Blackfoot Indian.

JM:

That's what he said?

PG:

Oh, man, you could get--as old as he was, but he looked like the same age all my life, you know. He looked the same till he died. Yeah.

JM:

Wow.

PG:

I mean, he could get down--shit, I ain't even try to do as low as he could get.

JM:

Yeah.

PG:

Yeah, a Blackfoot Indian. Because we was up at Latonia, that's where it was--Latonia. That's when he come up with that Blackfoot Indian stuff. Because the Ku Klux Klan was having a rally and they told us it was someone was on the 32:00backside--what Klan shit! We had an old '56 Ford or something, we had to shift--threw down the shift. Man, we would come up out of there, we would come on home, we went straight through the rally. They had crosses burning and everything. Yeah, man, we went straight through there, Florence, Kentucky.

JM:

No shit.

PG:

No shit.

JM:

So you all were at Latonia--I mean, were you on your way home anyway?

PG:

No, no.

JM:

Or somebody told you the Klan was coming, and you were like, "Let's get the fuck out of here"?

PG:

We heard the drums beating and fire and all that shit and so we asked--who was security up there at the time? That's what it was--the security was messing with Tommy Long, he was getting down low[?]. Said, "What is that?" Kennedy--wasn't that his name?--he said, "That's the Klan having a rally." I said, "The what?" He said, "Yeah, they say some of 'em is going to the backside." So Tim, a friend of mine, Snug and all of them, jumped in that old car and came on up out of there.

JM:

Came back to Louisville.

PG:

Yeah. [Unintelligible.] Crosses burning, big old field full of them. [Unintelligible].

JM:

Dude, what was that like?

PG:

Scary. That's why we got the hell out of there, yeah. Scary.

JM:

Dude, I mean, but I've never heard of anybody talking about that before.

PG:

No? Well, maybe none of them was there at that time. Tones you was talking to. I wish Tommy Long and them was living, they could tell you about that stuff.

JM:

How long did it take you to get back from Latonia?

PG:

We was young, man.

JM:

Really? How young?

PG:

About 17, 18. Yeah, we was young.

JM:

Do you remember like, when you were that young at that time? Had you ever known anybody that was in a similar situation where like the Klan was hanging out and burning crosses and shit?

PG:

Man, I've been through so much stuff in my life. Yeah. [Unintelligible] It was crazy, man.

JM:

Man.

PG:

That's why I tell my kids, "Y'all don't know what we went through to get what y'all got today." Because they don't re--I remember having to go back to the bus and black fountain, white fountain, white bathrooms. I remember all that stuff I had to go through. If you sitting on a bus and a white person person got on there, you had to get up and give them your seat. Go to the back.

JM:

What was it--I mean, I know this sounds like a dumb question. But when something like that happened when you were a kid--

PG:

I never paid no attention. I just did it.

JM:

It didn't even--it didn't even really bother you?

PG:

Because we know what the situation was: get up or get whupped. Shit, it was 35:00crazy, man.

JM:

Man. And Tommy Long said he was a Blackfoot--

PG:

Blackfoot Indian.

JM:

Did he ever did he ever talk about his family like what that meant or who was Blackfoot?

PG:

Never.

JM:

Damn.

PG:

Never. You know, he had them funny-colored eyes. They were grey and green and all that stuff, yeah.

JM:

He has a look about him, you know what I mean?

PG:

He had the Indian look.

JM:

Yeah, for sure. That's wild, man.

PG:

Yeah. [laughs] Shit, the security--he went in to get his license and went in his pocket and pulled out a bag of weed. [Both laugh] He said, "Mister, what's that?" "Oh, hell, that's for my glaucoma." They gave it back to him, said, "Got on out of here." But he didn't do it once, he did it twice, once there, once at [unintelligible].

JM:

Oh man.

PG:

Yeah boy. He was a character. I wish you could have met him.

JM:

Aw, man, he sounds like he sounds like the real, the real item--sounds like a really cool guy.

PG:

Yeah, I was crazy about him, though, you know?

JM:

Yeah, I mean he's like the most famous groom in the history of Churchill Downs, wasn't he?

PG:

Oh, yeah. He was

JM:

Everybody came up with [unintelligible.]

PG:

He made up his own brace and all that.

JM:

His own brace?

PG:

He made up his own brace for the horse's leg and they would buy it from him. Shit.

JM:

What was in it?

PG:

You think he gonna tell somebody? That was like me, I got a brace that old man Vance gave me, he wouldn't even give his son the ingredients.

JM:

Really?

PG:

Yeah.

JM:

Now when you say brace what does that mean?

PG:

That's something you rub on the horse's legs to cool them and tighten them up, you know. Keep them cool and tight.

JM:

So old man Vance had a special formula?

PG:

And man your hands would be like this, it was so--shoo!

JM:

Really?

PG:

He told me, "Don't you never give this to nobody." And I never did.

JM:

What did it smell like?

PG:

Little bit of everything? Yeah, it had [unintelligible] soys beans [unintelligible] a lot of different--but it worked. I tell you, it worked.

JM:

So let me--let's go back to when you were up in New York with Richard and Eddie Sweat, you all--you said you were up there at the same meet or you were in the same barn?

PG:

We was at the same meet, you know. Nah, we wasn't in the same barn, you know.

JM:

Did you know Eddie Sweat?

PG:

Oh yeah. Yeah. I knew Eddie well. We used to hang out at the bar at night, you know, shit. Yeah, we'd all be killing it, him and his wife. See, they all was from Holly Hill, South Carolina. Holly--Holly Hill, North Carolina? Somewhere down in there. You talking about country?

JM:

Oh okay, so he was like a country dude.

PG:

Oh man, that's what they try to do to him. Trainer gave the old '56 Ford they 38:00had on the farm, all rusted. The association made them buy him a house, a car, everything. When Secretariat win all that? Yeah.

JM:

They tried to give them a shitty old car?

PG:

Shitty old ride had been on the farm for 30 years.

JM:

And what association?

PG:

The New York Racing Association. Yeah. See up there, they got the Labor Board. Walk around, ask you how much you making. Are you getting your days off? And, you know, all that. They don't play up there.

JM:

Really?

PG:

Yes, sir. Because see, the first year I went up there, they was on strike. That was '69.

JM:

Okay.

PG:

Them holders and trainers, they got tired of catching them horses, you know. I was going out there to look for a job, but, shit, I ain't crossing no picket line. I ain't doing it.

JM:

Okay.

PG:

They got everything to settle down, you know. Up there when you retire, they 39:00give you a license to last for the rest of your life. Here, they don't give you shit. [laughs] Churchill wants that money.

JM:

When you say they give you a license to last for the rest of your life, what do you mean?

PG:

You don't--you can go to the races or anything you want, don't have to pay. But half of them guys up there, when they retire all they do is go out there and sit in the rec hall and play race horse running, poker, you know. And drink beer. Hell, you know, up there, a can is 10 cents apiece. So the ones was drinking the beer, give them to the ones was hustling the cans to take them back in the kitchen and sell them. [both laugh]

JM:

That's right. [to passerby] Hey there. Man. That sounds like a pretty good way for old racetrackers to go out, just kind of hang out on the track.

PG:

Oh yeah. That's what they do. That's all they know. You know? A lot of them.

JM:

So you're saying that the Association made the trainer take care of Eddie Sweat.

PG:

They sure did. They sure did.

JM:

Damn. I mean, because was he--was he famous at the time?

PG:

Who?

JM:

Eddie Sweat.

PG:

No, he wasn't famous, but he rubbed most of the good--he had River Ridge. See? The same guy that owned River Ridge, owned Secretariat, Teller[?]. Yeah. He took all the good horses. The horses that beat Secretariat--Spanish Riddle.

JM:

Okay.

PG:

That was the first horse they had to put an artificial foot on. Yeah.

JM:

Come on, man. Artificial foot?

PG:

Yeah. Horse called Spanish Riddle. Yeah.

JM:

And he beat Secretariat?

PG:

No he didn't beat him--

JM:

With a foot?

PG:

No, that was after.

JM:

Okay.

PG:

Yeah. But he was the first horse they experimented with an artificial foot on, yeah.

JM:

And Eddie Sweat rubbed that horse, too?

PG:

I'll tell you, he rubbed most all the good ones they had at that time.

JM:

So what kind of guy was he?

PG:

Who?

JM:

Eddie.

PG:

He was a good guy. Quiet. He was real quiet. He didn't mess with too many people. He just got to do his job. He was a good guy. Nice guy. Real nice. Yeah.

JM:

When you all were--

PG:

I couldn't say nothing bad about him.

JM:

Sure. Yeah. When y'all were hanging out in New York in those years, at that one meet, you all would hang out at the bar and stuff, like, did you talk about--did you ever learn anything from him? Did you guys, like, swap secrets or anything?

PG:

We didn't talk work when we went out. We talked girls and chasing them. [both laugh] We didn't talk work, because our secret is our secret, you know? Knock on wood.

JM:

Right.

PG:

I don't mean to be boasting or bragging, but everybody that I work for, when I 42:00got on the job, they win plenty of races. I don't know if it was the luck of the hands or what, you know? And that ain't no lie. Everybody I walked for. I had a few that wanted me to train the horses. I said, "I don't do that." You know? I like peace of mind. I see guys younger than me, they look like they 90. Because them trainers, they'll call you anytime of night and, "What's my horse doing?" and "Now I wanna run him here," and "I wanna do this." I learned that from old man Vance. You know? I told you about that.

JM:

What's that?

PG:

When B.M. Hawkins walked in there with that conditioning book?

JM:

Yeah, you told me about that. That's a good story. Yeah, that's in here, that's really good.

PG:

He didn't say a word to none of us. He just rolled up in the kitchen. He called Pride[?] van. Shit, about an hour and a half later, and he had three vans down there and, "Load 'em up, Goober." [both laugh] I said, "What?" "Load 'em up! You 43:00don't come here and tell me where to run 'em. I'm the trainer. He's the owner. He don't tell me where to run these horses." "Aw, Mr. Vance. I'm so sorry--" "You want to train 'em? Here, take 'em." Shit. Yeah, he didn't play.

JM:

Dang man. Yeah. So yeah, so you got a hold of some horses and they would win?

PG:

Yeah.

JM:

How long did you rub Forego?

PG:

A couple--it wasn't long--about three weeks, three or four weeks till they got ready to send him to the farm to operate on him.

JM:

Okay, so that was right before he got operated on.

PG:

Yeah. Only thing I could say was I had these hands on him.

JM:

That's right. That's right. What was the horse that you rubbed that you felt like you brought along the furthest that won some races you felt real good about?

PG:

Shoo, I had so many of them, I can't say.

JM:

Yeah?

PG:

Yeah, man, I had some nice horses. Because, that one horse that old man Vance 44:00had, a horse called King of Kentucky, shoo. He was boss around here but we couldn't run him nowhere else.

JM:

Why?

PG:

Because he had been nerved. A nerve horse, a lot of jackets won't ride them, because they have no feeling down there.

JM:

Yeah, so you don't think--they could just like go off--

PG:

Go off, go down, and you know...because they ain't got no feeling. Shit. Shot and Miss.

JM:

Shot and Miss, yeah.

PG:

Yeah. So did Belmont[?]. Tall Tale Teller, he broke down over here in the Louisville Handicap. I had a horse called Going to Celebrate. He broke down in the Phoenix Handicap up in Lexington. Boy, he was going to be a beast.

JM:

Really?

PG:

I'm telling you, that son of a buck, he could...*whistles*. Yeah. When he broke down, me and Norman, me and Norman Castle, we stayed up there pretty damn near 45:00all night. He said, "Come on Paul, ain't nothing else we can do tonight," you know. He brought me on home, he went back up there the next day. They went on and put him down, you know?

JM:

What's that feel like?

PG:

Shoo. He bought me a halter and said, "If we ever get another one as good as him, here's the halter for him."

JM:

Huh. And what did you do with that halter?

PG:

It's up there.

JM:

You still got it?

PG:

I loaned it to Coon[?], and one time, he had claimed a horse and didn't have a halter for him. I put it there. Let him use it. Yeah.

JM:

You still got it though, huh? That's cool.

PG:

And of course What It Is.

JM:

You had what?

PG:

And then I said of course him. [looking at picture] I had some---

JM:

So that was a good horse, huh?

PG:

Yeah.

JM:

Won some races.

PG:

...won the Derby Trial--

JM:

So this the Derby Trial, right?

PG:

I don't know if that's the Transferals or the Derby Trial.

JM:

The one that's in the frame you got.

PG:

Yeah, because, see, they was just three days apart. At that time. See at that 46:00time, they run the Derby Trial on a Tuesday.

JM:

Uh huh

PG:

Yeah. Then the Derby on Saturday. He ran Tuesday, walked Thursday, Friday--walked Wednesday, Thursday and Friday and come back and won the Transferal. Yeah, this is the Derby, here.

JM:

The Derby Trial.

PG:

Derby Trial, I meant, yeah.

JM:

But will you tell me--what does the Derby Trial--was that an actual race?

PG:

It was supposed to have been a prep for the Derby.

JM:

The same week?

PG:

But the same--yeah. But that's why a lot of trainers, they wouldn't run in it. Or if you run in there, you wouldn't go back in the Derby because they was just three days apart.

JM:

Too soon. Okay.

PG:

So instead of us going into Derby, we went in the...?

JM:

Derby Trial.

PG:

Well, the Derby Trial. Instead running back in the Derby, we went into the Transferals.

JM:

Okay.

PG:

Yeah.

JM:

Hey, let me get you to say--talk a little bit about where we are. Will you tell me a little bit about the old school and what goes on here and kind of like tell the people what it is? [looking at picture?]

PG:

Well, I really can't tell you about what this is here. Like, that's going on--I heard stuff.

JM:

But where do you--where do you work?

PG:

Huh?

JM:

Where do you work?

PG:

Where do I work?

JM:

Yeah.

PG:

The old school.

JM:

At the old school?

PG:

I've worked for Deacon's [unintelligible]. That's a--because they really bought this for the racetrackers when they retired, they had somewhere to go.

JM:

Um hm.

PG:

But after a few years didn't none of them come. So they had to open it up to the public. When they did that, that's when Housing got in there.

JM:

Oh.

PG:

Housing got in there. We had to save so many apartments for homeless, so many apartments for disabled.

JM:

Got you.

PG:

And shit, after they got filled up, here come the racetrackers, but it's too late.

JM:

Oh, really?

PG:

What the hell, it was too late. [Goffner and Manning speak to passerby.]

KAREN [UNKNOWN LAST NAME]:

Did you need something from Richard or was you just here to talk to Paul?

JM:

I was coming by to say hi to Richard, it's been a while since--I ran into Paul.

KU:

He'll be here tomorrow.

JM:

Okay. Cool. I'll swing back by again. Richard introduced me to Paul and a couple of the other folks as I'm putting together a book about the racetrack.

KU:

That's right, okay. You wanted pictures of Roche.

JM:

Of Roche. Y'all got any? I got one picture but not very many more.

KU:

I wouldn't have them. Richard would have them. I know he had mentioned something a while back, Richard did, but I don't know of any. [looking at picture] Ah, there's my friend.

JM:

That's a sweet picture of them, isn't it?

KU:

And didn't--what about the one that we had where he was holding a horse?

JM:

Oh, that one. I have that one, too. From a magazine?

KU:

Yeah, that's the only one I have. Yeah.

JM:

Yeah, I've worked--I wrote his obituary

KU:

Yeah.

JM:

Richard and I worked on it together because I did that interview with him.

KU:

I knew Roche, God, for 23 years.

JM:

Really?

KU:

Uh huh. I've been around.

PG:

Look at that. Tommy Long. Roy Dix.

KU:

Oh, wow, if that's not a crew.

JM:

Yeah, right?

PG:

I'm telling you, that was a crew.

KU:

There any in there of you?

JM:

Oh, yeah, show her the one of What It Is. You've probably seen that one.

PG:

Yeah, she's seen that.

KU:

Oh my goodness.

JM:

How about that?

KU:

Wow. What It Is.

PG:

He was a running son of a gun.

KU:

That's crazy.

PG:

Talk about running the horse back too quick?

KU:

Yeah.

PG:

Tuesday. He won the Derby Trial.

KU:

Oh, really?

PG:

I walked him Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. Running back Saturday, he won the Transferal.

KU:

Oh wow.

JM:

How old was he? How old was he?

PG:

Three years old.

JM:

That--he was three years old that year. Man. That's incredible.

KU:

Wow.

PG:

He paid $78 and come back with 780.

KU:

Wow.

PG:

[Unintelligible] running out of the grandstand, hundred dollar bills.

KU:

Did you need to speak to Richard? Do you want me to let him know--?

JM:

Let him know I stopped by.

KU:

I will.

JM:

I was just in a neighborhood. And he called me back last week. What I wanted to know is like when Roche passed away, kind of what happened to all his stuff? Maybe there was some photographs laying around the apartment or something, you know?

KU:

Actually, I do believe Marty Rook was his power of attorney. And I know that he 51:00was responsible for a lot of things. I don't know if Marty kept them. To be honest. I don't even know if there was a lot of stuff.

JM:

Okay. That makes sense.

PG:

He had a suitcase full of Playboy books and--

KU:

Yeah. I think--I think that was probably thrown away. He did have a really close friend that worked at Wagner's. I don't know if she would have had anything. Her name was--no she didn't work at Wagner's. Well, yeah. He had two--he had quite a few lady friends that took care of him.

PG:

That's what I hear.

KU:

Marlene was one of them. And then there was a--she was redhead I think.

JM:

Okay.

KU:

And then there was another lady that worked at the Derby Museum that always took care of him as well.

JM:

Really?

KU:

Yeah, he never wanted for anything. To hear him talk he did, but he never wanted for anything. But--

JM:

That's cool.

KU:

Yeah. But as far as his personal belongings, I would think...I know he had 52:00saved.... I want to say it's probably Marty because Marty gave us money to hold in case there was any bills that came in and there never was. And so Richard just contacted him and said, "Hey, we got this money." It wasn't a lot.

JM:

Yeah.

KU:

And he said, "Well, just donate it to the track chaplaincy."

JM:

Okay.

KU:

So that's what they did.

JM:

Yeah, because Roche went over there. He was at the chaplaincy pretty--

KU:

He was there every Monday night.

PG:

Angie would come and pick him up every Monday night.

KU:

Yeah, she was the one that worked at the Darby Museum, Angie. And then Marlene worked at Wagner.

JM:

Okay, cool. I'll ask around.

KU:

Yeah, but I haven't seen--I know Marty supposed to be in my office on...tomorrow? He called me today and wanted to come in and we were just really busy.

JM:

Oh. Cool.

KU:

So Marty's gonna be in tomorrow to update some information and I can ask him.

JM:

Yeah, why not? Sure. That sounds great.

KU:

I'll let Richard know if you want to kind of touch base with him.

JM:

Absolutely, sounds great.

KU:

But if anybody had it, it would have been Marty. And he may--if he did have 53:00anything, he may have given to Angie or Marlene to see if they wanted it.

JM:

Okay.

KU:

I can't imagine anybody else having anything.

JM:

Sure. Yeah, I just wanted to see if there's a couple more pictures of him.

KU:

Okay.

JM:

Or just candid shots from the backside like, you know, like all these. I mean, we got really lucky that a guy named Clarke Otte just had thousands of photographs from the backside.

KU:

Wow, that's great.

JM:

We did we did pretty good. The book's gonna be great. The book's gonna be really great.

KU:

That'll be interesting. Is the front cover you?

JM:

That's the cover of the book

KU:

Is it really?

JM:

No--no joke. No joke. What do you think of that? [laughs]

KU:

Already more pages than what you are[?]

PG:

That'll get me locked up.

KU:

I know, you might have people looking for you! They'll be like, "Well, there he is!"

JM:

There he is! Well, it was good to meet you. What's your name?

KU:

You too. Karen. I'm director of operations here.

JM:

Okay, sorry to be hanging out and--

KU:

That's okay. I kind of was like, "Who is that?"

JM:

You got it you gotta catch this guy when you can, he's slippery. He's been telling me for years.

KU:

I didn't mean to run you off. You're more than welcome to stay or go in the conference room.

PG:

I'm at work, girl.

KU:

[raspberry] You take care. It was nice to meet you. [She leaves]

JM:

See you around. Take care. Yeah, you gotta catch Paul Goffner when you can. Where do you go to get out of here, man? How do you get out of here?

PG:

Got a whole lot of shit over there. I even got a guy up there helping me--

JM:

Looks like somebody's got a big old ladder up there doing something.

PG:

Yeah. [Unintelligible.]

JM:

What was the horse's name?

PG:

Jacks Forever. I'll show him to you.

JM:

Yeah, let's go--let's go have a look. Shoot. I mean, you run this place, you can kind of do whatever you want, probably.

PG:

[Unintelligible.] A lot of work up here. Putting up fans and all that shit.

JM:

What do you--wait, where do you live, Paul?

PG:

Right here.

JM:

You live here? Okay, how long have you lived here?

PG:

Since the day it opened.

JM:

Okay.

PG:

First resident.

JM:

First resident, old school. I did not know that.

[long silence]

PG:

I'm gonna run upstairs.

JM:

Okay. [long silence] You want me to go with you?

PG:

Yeah, you can go.

JM:

Okay. Man, does Dave still live here?

PG:

Who?

JM:

Dave.

PG:

Which one?

JM:

Craighead.

PG:

Oh no, shit no. He's uh--I don't know where he is--he [unintelligible] all this stuff.

JM:

Dude, I ran into him the other day, man. I mean, he pretty much assaulted me, dude.

PG:

Who?

JM:

Dave Craighead! At the damn Starbucks up by Kroger.

PG:

No shit?

JM:

Yeah, dude.

PG:

I didn't even know he was in town. [Unintelligible] take care of his stuff.

JM:

Yeah, he did. He like--he kind of flipped out on me.

PG:

I'll be right back.

JM:

Okay.

[long silence]

JM:

What have you got here? Jacks Forever. [Looking at more pictures.]

PG:

[Unintelligible.] Yup.

JM:

Whoa, man!

PG:

Look at Dave Vance. No, that's Dan Hawkins, that's Dave Vance over there.

JM:

Is it really?

PG:

That's the old one.

JM:

Okay. Yeah, there's the one old man Vance told him, "Load them horses up, get them the hell outta here." [both laugh] So that's the guy, huh?

PG:

Yeah.

JM:

H. Marino--uh, David Vance, trainer.

PG:

He just went down the steps. Yeah, he'll be right back, though, I guess.

JM:

Whoa, man.

PG:

[To his brother Jim, who is passing by.] Hey, Jim. Look at this.

JM:

What's up Jim? How you doing man? [looking at pictures again] 1967.

JIM GOFFNER:

1967, you was an old egg[?]. [all laugh]

PG:

That was two years before I got hooked up?

JG:

1967, I was 20.

PG:

Yeah.

JM:

How old were you in '67?

PG:

21.

JM:

Wow, okay. All right.

PG:

I'm a year older than him.

JM:

Uh huh.

PG:

A few months older than him.

JM:

Wow. Yeah, that's a cool picture.

PG:

There's that ornery son of a bitch. He went on Derby Day--took forever. [Unintelligible.]

JG:

Big, black, mean on of a bitch.

JM:

Was it a black horse?

PG:

Yeah.

JG:

Yeah. Jet black, it had white on his nose.

PG:

He was a killer. Oh, yeah. No shit. [Unintelligible.]

JM:

Really?

JG:

[Unintelligible.] That was, I guess, around '70, I guess, 1970.

JM:

So that picture was on Derby Day?

PG:

No, this was uh--yeah. May 4.

JM:

May 4th, 1967.

PG:

1967. [laughs] Shit. Matter of fact, I won two races that day. Him and March 60:00Blow. You remember March Blow?

JG:

Who?

PG:

March Blow.

JG:

Yeah.

PG:

Gray son of a bitch.

JG:

Um hm, yeah. I remember King of Kentucky won the Derby.

PG:

Yup.

JM:

Kings of Kentucky was one of Vance's?

JG:

Yeah.

JM:

Okay. Dang. So he had a lot--that was a good day for Vance. Jacks Forever. So which--which race was this?

PG:

It don't say on there? This was just an allowance race. [Unintelligible] Marino, boy boy boy. This was a looooong time ago. He was a hell of a rider, too.

JM:

Dang, man. So tell me more about--[stutters] How'd you get stuck with all these mean horses?

PG:

They see I knew what I was doing. I could rub some, yeah. I know how to--I had long arms. [laughs]

JM:

Um hm. What's that do for you?

PG:

What, the long arms?

JM:

Uh huh.

PG:

Keep them away. "You ain't going to bite me, motherfucker, kick me, no sir."

JM:

[Looking at picture.] Uh huh. So your brother said he was kind of famous for being a son of a bitch. Is that right?

PG:

Who, him?

JM:

Yeah.

PG:

Yeah. Yeah, he was working for Vance at that time. They all went to--see, they all went to Michigan, and I went to New York.

JM:

Right.

PG:

Yeah.

JM:

When you got up to New York, you said you went to Saratoga but they was on strike.

PG:

No, I went to Belmont.

JM:

Belmont, I keep doing that. Sorry. You went to Belmont and they was on strike. So what did you do for work before the strike broke?

PG:

Nothing.

JM:

Just hanging with--hanging with your mother-in-law?

PG:

Yeah.

JM:

Where'd she live?

PG:

In Laurelton. Lor--no, Laurelton. Yeah. Queens. Yes sir.

JM:

And how long was it before you got to work on the track?

PG:

Oh, it wasn't for a few months, they went off the strike. [Unintelligible] got tired of catching them horses. [laughs] Yeah, but when I was in New York I did--I did plumber's assistant, electrical assistant. Electrician.

JM:

Okay.

PG:

And I worked at the airport, you know, at one of them catering places.

JM:

Okay.

PG:

But goddamn, every time they raised the flag, I'm going to the track. [both laugh] I like being outside. Yeah.

JM:

Yeah? Yeah, a straight job doesn't sound very fun when you've been outside working with horses your whole life.

PG:

Yeah, that's what it was. Yeah. I quit some good jobs [?]. Worked for Conco[?] before I got married. Shit, I was making gunpowder cans for the Army.

JM:

Oh shit.

PG:

Yeah, it was a hell of a job, man.

JM:

So tell me--let me get this straight. So you--you grew up in Newburgh, didn't 63:00come to town but to buy some shoes because you all was raising animals.

PG:

We raised all our own shit. We had our own smokehouse.

JM:

Did you?

PG:

You want some bacon, go out in the smokehouse and get you some bacon, sausage, ham. Whole deal.

JM:

Dang, that sounds amazing, man.

PG:

You want some chicken, go out there in the chicken coop. Wring that son of a bitch's neck. [His brother says something.] Me and him, we used to go next door, steal the next door neighbor's chicken. My cousin say, "Y'all get a chicken, I'll cook them."

JG:

We didn't take the feathers off of them or nothing. [Unintelligible.] We all stand around the fire waiting on the chicken. [laughs]

PG:

We used to take zip guns, go fox hunting--go fox hunting. Yeah.

JM:

Seriously?

PG:

Yeah, oh, we was young son-of-a-bitches, too.

JM:

Just running around. Hoeing.

JG:

Tell him about them ponds.

PG:

Yeah, oh, shit.

JM:

What?

PG:

He said, "Tell him about them ponds, them man-made ponds."

JM:

Okay.

PG:

I went and dove in some, my head got stuck in the mud, man. My cousin had to jump in there and pull me.

JM:

Oh my god.

PG:

Oh, man, this is crazy shit.

JM:

That sounds like a hell of a childhood, man.

PG:

It was. That was the only place we had to swim.

JM:

Make it work. Right. So how did you get from there to Miles Park? Like wha--what made you go to Miles Park?

PG:

Well, a friend a mine called Larry Boynton[?], his father worked on the racetrack. I didn't know nothing about no racetrack. When we moved, we moved to Newburgh, I was 11 years old.

JM:

Okay.

PG:

Yeah. After we moved in Southway. And from Southway [we were down to?] Churchill Downs to Miles Park.

JM:

Oh. So at 11 years old y'all moved west?

PG:

Yeah. We moved out there. So when I got old enough, that's when I met Rain Cloud [unintelligible] with Larry Mornton[?], so I went over with him a couple of times, you know. I said, "Shit, I like this." So every morning before we go to school, we go to Miles Park, walk a few horses. Getting a quarter, fifty cents a head then. Shit. But I go to school--

JM:

That's a lot.

PG:

Oh hell yeah, I go to school with a dollar in my hand, and then I had all the girls. Everybody wanted to marry me! [Both laugh.] Man. Dude, what was it like to go from living in the country to living in West Louisville?

PG:

It was nothing--[speaks to passerby] It was--it was something different, you 66:00know. Shit, we wasn't used to no running water and all that shit. I said, "Damn, the toilet!" Because we had to go--we had to go to the outhouse, you know.

JM:

Wow.

PG:

Out in the country, we didn't have no running water and shit.

JM:

That's a big move, dude, from living out in the country to the middle of the city.

PG:

Catching the rainwater to, you know, go in there and cook [unintelligible]. We thought we was rich, shit. [both laugh] "A bathtub? What the hell is that?" We had them tin tubs, you know.

JM:

Really?

PG:

Yeah. Number 15, number 12 and all that shit.

JM:

Whoa, man. Why'd you all make that move? Why--what did the family do to do that--why did it happen?

PG:

My mother was ready to get up out of there.

JM:

Okay.

PG:

Because my grandmother had passed, and she had eight of us, you know. That's 67:00when they first--hell, we moved in Southway, they was still building on it. They didn't have but four or five buildings down there at the time, you know. Yeah. It was in '65, '66.

JM:

Okay. Okay.

PG:

Somewhere in there.

JM:

Man.

PG:

Yeah, it was a hell of a difference from the country to the city.

JM:

I bet. Shoot, I never knew that, man, that's good to hear.

PG:

We used to have to fight to go to the store, fight to come home. Because they called it Little Africa down there then.

JM:

Okay, so you lived in Little Africa.

PG:

Yeah. Somebody get killed at night, they'd just kick him to the curb because the police wasn't coming down there till the next day. [laughs]

JM:

So wait, was it--I mean, was it rough in Little Africa at that time?

PG:

Fuck, yeah. Didn't you hear me? I said we had to fight to go to the store, fight to come home with the groceries, shit.

JM:

Well, look, be real, man. You're just like a little kid and all of a sudden 68:00you're having to fight other kids just to--in the city?

PG:

Yeah, that's life.

JM:

Wow. That must have been--that must have been hard. Uh huh.

PG:

I ain't taking shit as hard as my mama worked. Shit, you know, fuck that. Yeah, because, see, when I was in the sixth grade, I had to go to junior high school because it was so crowded down there, you know.

JM:

No, I don't get it. What do you mean? It was so crowded where?

PG:

At Carter DuValle.

JM:

Okay.

PG:

See Carter was elementary and DuValle was junior high. So that's what it was called, Carter DuValle.

JM:

Okay.

PG:

So I was in the sixth grade which is the last grade for Carter, you know, but I had to go to junior high school.

JM:

They just put you in seventh grade?

PG:

Yeah.

JM:

Huh.

PG:

So then, that's when I had to fight to save and keep my lunch money and all that shit because, you know, they older than me and bigger, you know. Shit, they ain't taking shit from me with how hard my mama worked for this quarter.

JM:

Man. So talk--tell me a little bit more about Ham Morris, because I know he had Gay the Wonder Horse which is a crazy story. I was listening back to--I was listening back to one of our interviews, and you're talking about him shaving that guy's face and I was like, "Come on," and I--you gave me that look like you give me, like, "Man, I'm being serious." Shaved somebody's face.

PG:

Yeah, shaved him. And he would ask, "Feed me." He would say, "Feed me." And he drove a Cadillac convertible.

JM:

That's crazy, man.

PG:

Look it up, look it up.

JM:

I saw some video--I'll pull up the video and show it to you one day. It'll blow your mind. But I mean, did Ham Morris also have legit horses that ran races at Miles Park?

PG:

Oh, yeah.

JM:

Okay.

PG:

He had thoroughbreds. You better not brush the tail or nothing out. Take them over, he wants to [Unintelligible] You'd be over there and the horse's tail would be back here somewhere. I told you about the rooster? Yeah.

JM:

No, no. Tell me about the rooster.

PG:

The rooster? He tell that son-of-a-bitch to get up there and ride he [unintelligible]. He jump up on [unintelligible].

JM:

And then what year did--what year did Miles Park burn down?

PG:

Oh now. You're asking an old man something? What year was it? That was...

JM:

I can't remember what year it was. But--

PG:

Had to have been in the '60s.

JM:

Yeah, it was for sure.

PG:

It would have been in the early '60s because, hell, I was going downtown and seeing all that smoke, we got off the bus and went back down there.

JM:

So you came--you showed up when it was on fire?

PG:

Mm hmm. Yeah. [Unintelligible] they would not come out of that stall. You can 71:00bring them out, but if you turn them loose, they run right back in there, man. That's their home. They're out of there, what, one hour a day? You know, that's the only place they know. They had the same thing at the fire down at Ellis Park, man. You see all the horses, they stayed in there right by the door. Wouldn't come out.

JM:

And just burnt up?

PG:

Burnt up, yeah.

JM:

That's gotta leave an impression on you, man. So what happened after Miles Park burnt down? Did they close it?

PG:

Yeah, they closed it. Then they opened it up for quarterhorse racing [unintelligible] ride the news and shit down there. See, that was the old fairgrounds. That was the fairgrounds before they turned it into Miles Park. After Miles Park, that's when Wayne Supply Company bought it.

JM:

Mm hmm. So when--after it burnt up did you just keep working there after a while, after they rebuilt the barns or whatever?

PG:

I was gone.

JM:

Man. Hold on, let me see what I got here, hold on one second. You were gone.

PG:

Yeah. Yeah. [Talks with passerby].

JM:

Hey, man, can I--can I scan that? I'll bring it back to you tomorrow.

PG:

You wanna take it back down there and let her scan it for you?

JM:

I've got a scanner in my car. But I've got a better one at work.

PG:

Oh yeah, she got a big one down there.

JM:

Down in the clinic? Did you all party? Like where'd y'all hang out on the hill? Did y'all, like, go to John Lee's rib joint back in the day?

PG:

No, down in the office. Back in the day, her auntie had a bar down the street. My wife's auntie. Pearl's Hideaway.

JM:

Pearl's Hideaway. Yeah, Catfish was just talking about that.

PG:

Yeah.

JM:

So wait, that's your wife's aunt?

PG:

My wife's auntie yeah.

JM:

She was Pearl? What kind of joint was that?

PG:

Juke joint.

JM:

Shoot.

PG:

[to passerby] Hey!

JM:

All right, I'll bring it back to you. I'm gonna bring it back to you later today, how's that? You know what though, Paul? I, uh, I'll give you a buzz but 74:00I, somewhere along the line, lost your number. Give me one second.