https://ohc.library.louisville.edu/ohms/viewer.php?cachefile=2019_181_13_mitchell-smith.xml#segment1600
Partial Transcript: we were always very well dressed, our hair was immaculate, you know--it had to be, because we wanted to have an appearance.
Segment Synopsis: Discussion of how she was raised and manners; observations of how her grandmother was treated as a Black woman, experiences with racism, and the differences between Highland Park and the West End.
2019_181_13_mitchell-smith_20190612
Wed, 12/1 2:59PM • 1:15:36
SPEAKERS
JM:, WMS:
WMS:
Quarter after 4:00.
JM:
Oh yeah.
WMS:
Is that--are you sure?
JM:
Mm-hm.
WMS:
Okay, I could do 4:30, even.
1:00JM:
Let's just see where we get--how far we get.
WMS:
Okay, all right. But this was--this is very important to me.
JM:
I can tell.
WMS:
You know, because these are the lost heroes, these are the unsung heroes of the
horse racing industry. They really and truly are. [pause] We live on Nevada--JM:
Okay, I just wanted to find out where we left off.
WMS:
Okay.
JM:
So sitting here again, with Ms. Wanda Mitchell-Smith, June 12th, at 3:30. So, you were getting ready to tell me about when the horses came in. You knew about
the spring meet and the fall meet?WMS:
Yes!
JM:
And what would happen in the neighborhood there in Highland Park?
WMS:
It was excitement. It was just so much excitement. You knew when the horses were
in. I mean, even to the volume of activity.JM:
Really?
WMS:
You know, because the community would stir about, and you saw the evidence and
people coming in, the grooms coming in and rooming and boarding at various places there, you know. And so you knew that the races would start, and Derby! Oh, my goodness, it was just phenomenal.JM:
What was it like?
WMS:
It was so exciting to see. I mean, Derby was a special time. It was work and yet
it was play, too, because you knew--you had bookies that were in Highland Park, of course, and people would play the horses. Because they knew the horses.JM:
Yeah!
WMS:
They knew if that horse that they had to care for is going to make it across
2:00that finish line. They knew if the hip or the leg or whatever joint it was going to be able to handle what the pace of the track was, whether it was a fast chalk track, or slow chalk track, whether your horse was a mudder, you know--JM:
What's that mean?
WMS:
--that means that it's good to run in the mud. I mean, the horses enjoyed
running in the mud as opposed to on just a regular track. These horses were the ones who, you know, that, "Oh, give me the the mud, the sloppy track," and they would call it the mudders, the sloppy tracks--JM:
Uh-huh.
WMS:
--And different things, but everyone at that point...the Derby time was
employment for a lot of people in Highland Park.JM:
Okay.
WMS:
So you had a lot of the women: my grandmother, my great-aunt, you know, my
3:00great- aunts, they would work on the track. My mother would take off from her job because she would make more in tips working in the restrooms for those two days to be able to carry tremendously. So the economic power of the Derby Week, you know, those two days, were enormous for Highland Park, just terribly enormous for Highland Park. It was really an awesome time and you saw the fruits of it, even down to--I know this sounds crazy--but even down to when you went to church on Sundays, you knew that the tithes and offerings were going to be at a higher increase than the norm, because of the Downs. So we always want to look at the negative, but there are some positives in there as well because of the economic drive of Derby season and the tracks. It drove up the offerings from 4:00the churches that were out there. And the churches that we had, we had two holiness churches, one at each extent. One on the corner of Woodlawn and Crittenden Drive and another one on the corner of Nevada and Park Boulevard, you know. And then we had a Methodist Church and that was Lampkin's Chapel. And then we had a Baptist church and that was Highland Park.JM:
Where'd you all go to church?
WMS:
We went to Highland Park.
JM:
Highland Park Baptist--?
WMS:
Highland Park Baptist Church, yes, yes. But the great thing about that is that
we didn't look at denominations, you know. We knew what they were. But we were intertwined. We were intertwined. For instance, when it came time for a church picnic--a Sunday school picnic is what we would call it--Lampkin's Chapel and Highland Park always hooked up so that we'd be able to have our picnic. And so 5:00the community was, you know, dead on those days because we always went to--everybody went together--that's community. That's the part that the economic developers missed out on when it came down to the airport, is the community aspect and piece and element of it. But I know you want to talk about horses.JM:
No. No, don't think that! Don't think that entirely because, as I said on the
phone the other day, growing up in Louisville, I'm a little bit younger than you are. And I remember when the airport convention happened--WMS:
Yeah.
JM:
I remember hearing about some things, but it really has only been in my adult
life that I really recognize it. And only since I've been hanging out in the South End--and I live in the South End now--that I recognize the extent to which an actual neighborhood was--WMS:
Taken away.
JM:
--was taken away.
WMS:
Was just taken away. It was just gone.
6:00JM:
What was that like for you all?
WMS:
It was--it was very devastating, you know, because even though we had moved out
of the neighborhood, we would still go back to the community on the weekends and stay and spend the night with our grandmother or whatever. But, you know, as we grew, and when that defining moment came in, to take the airport, it was very shocking, number one, you know. Because we had lived with the noise, we had lived with the air pollution, we had lived with all of that, and we were fine. Our church had bought properties, so that we were looking to build and expand onto our church.JM:
Huh.
WMS:
You know, and we were fine with that. And so when they came in--but over that
period of time, of going through the properties that were being acquired by the 7:00government, you know, and by the city for the airport...For the older people, it really took a toll on their lives. Because in that period of time, we lost approximately 12 members, older members of our church. Because it was the shaking up, it was the sudden change. And now all of a sudden, "I'm having to move, I'm having to relocate. I'm in my twilight years--" --and I just want to live my twilight years"--Plummie's Aunt Lou, who helped to raise him, you know, Aunt Lou told the media and everything--you need to see if you can go back and look at the archives on that. But Aunt Lou said, "This is my home. I've been here. I'm not moving. I'm not moving." You know, but it really took a toll on 8:00all of those seniors to relocate them at that age. I mean, it was funerals left and right at our church, because, I mean, when you suddenly abrupt and you interrupt and halt someone's life to that degree, you know? You know, you throw in the towel. And you don't know what is going on, you don't understand what all is being told to you, you don't quite get, you know--okay, so, "Now I've got this piece of property and I've got this one and this one too," you know. Oh, well, "We're gonna, you know--we'll make you this offer." And some of those people were like, "You know, well this was my life savings." And to the community's credit, going back to that word again, we had empty vacant lots; we had houses that were still--but they were kept clean. 9:00JM:
Right. Really?
WMS:
You would give a person that, you know--you had those people that had issues,
you know, and everything, but you say, "Hey, I'll give you $5 if you clean up this lot." "Okay!" They'd clean it up spic and span--JM:
Really.
WMS:
--and go and get their $5. Now they'd be licked the rest of the day but! The job
was done.JM:
That's right.
WMS:
You did not have to have all of these things that we do today.
JM:
That's right. Okay.
WMS:
They did that. And they took care of each other. They did that.
JM:
What do you know about the history of Highland Park? Where do you--why did they
build--where did it come from? Do you know?WMS:
You know, what--what--the only thing that--I'm trying to--the only thing that
that I know in referencing to the community is that it had been there for a long time as a matter of fact. Oh, because there used to be a drugstore there, it was 10:00Dave Rowe Drugstore that was on Crittenden Drive, but even before then, it was sharecropping.JM:
Really?
WMS:
It was land, yeah, even to where the airport is. It was sharecropping, because
my great-great grandfather, they called him Papa. And he had land over by where the airport was and they would farm all of that property. They would farm that property.JM:
Whoa.
WMS:
Yeah, yeah. So--
JM:
Wow.
WMS:
--it was it was that type of thing. So eventually they owned the property. They
work the land. They--they tilled the land, as they say. You know, they had the gardens. You know, they lived off of the land. And from that was the creation of 11:00the community of Highland Park.JM:
Okay.
WMS:
You know, and everything. So yeah.
JM:
Your grandmother, what was her name?
WMS:
Her name was Winifred Lucille Ford. Yes.
JM:
That's a beautiful name.
WMS:
Yes. Winifred Lucille Ford.
JM:
What did everybody call her?
WMS:
Gram.
JM:
Gram.
WMS:
I mean, even the adults called her Gram. Everybody knew her as Gram. Our pastor
called her Gram, you know? It was Gram.JM:
That's really--that's amazing.
WMS:
Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty cool.
JM:
What kind of lady was she?
WMS:
She was my heart. I hung around with Gram. I was everywhere with Gram. I
was--they used to call me her shadow. You know, a little bitty statue of a woman.JM:
Really?
WMS:
But oh, my goodness. So humble. Meek.
JM:
Wow.
WMS:
Yeah. Yeah. And she could cook.
JM:
Tell me about it.
WMS:
Oh, God! She--
JM:
Cook what?
WMS:
Gram had a cast iron skillet, you know, and that was her skillet. And I'm just
saying that the flavor had to be in this skillet. And I forgot someone in the 12:00family did get that skillet. I wanted that skillet so bad.JM:
Wow.
WMS:
But my grandmother was just...she was just a wonderful woman and woman of faith.
But quiet. You know, she would do things for us. She knew a grandmother's role. And she epitomized that.JM:
Okay.
WMS:
And you know, and everything, making sure that everything came together for our
family, for my mom, you know, and everything. And in those days, we didn't know that we were poor, but we were. We lived from--they did day work. When the seasons weren't going on, when the track was not open, then they did day work.JM:
Okay. Who did?
WMS:
My grandmother and my aunts did day work. My mother was more in the factory era,
you know, and when they would go to work, they would come home and we would see 13:00those shopping bags filled--it was a great day because we knew that the shopping bags had clothes in them for us.JM:
Oh, wow. Okay.
WMS:
And we were some of the best dressed kids in Highland Park. We really and truly
were. My family would come together--Big Auntie, her name was Susie Livingston, who did very well. They knew how to save. She didn't have any children, but we were her children. And Big Auntie and Uncle Odie knew how to make their money work for itself. And so thereby knowing how to buy horses. Uncle Odie would buy the horses, Uncle Ollie would train the horses.JM:
Really?
WMS:
Odell Livingston--Yes. You know, and he would put her name on it. He called her
Bella. No, Uncle Odie called her Bob. But my other aunt would call her Bella. Her name was Susie Belle Livingston, and they would call her Bella. Now for us, 14:00it was Big Auntie, because she was the oldest of the family.JM:
Okay.
WMS:
Okay. So she was the Big Auntie.
JM:
Got you.
WMS:
Okay. And so they would come together--Big Auntie. Dot was the other sister. Her
name was Evelyn Brutley. And she was younger than Big Auntie. And then my grandmother, Winifred Lucille. And she was the youngest of the three--the three-some--you know, the trio. But they would all come together at 426 Nevada. And you know, they would call my mother and they would say, "Okay, school is getting ready to start. What does this one need?" And they would write it all down. Okay. And then they'd say, "What does this one need?" You know, and they would write it all down. And when we went back to school-- 15:00JM:
Looking sharp.
WMS:
--we had school shoes. We had book satchels, no backpacks at that time. We had,
you know--our hair was together because my mother was a licensed beautician.JM:
Oh, wow.
WMS:
You know, and everything. And so we were very--we were looked upon as well to
do, but we were still poor. But it was because family--now, you know, our family knew how to do for others as well. And we had others, they had a lot of kids. And Mama said, "Well, you know, Wanda's outgrown this, that and the other," and so you gave them away. There was no consignment.JM:
[laughs]
WMS:
Okay? You gave them away, you know and everything, so that everybody would have clothes.
JM:
So, um, Big Auntie and Odie--
WMS:
Yes.
JM:
They were into the horses?
WMS:
Mm-hm. Mm-hm.
16:00JM:
Tell me a little bit about that. Was that your kind of first exposure to horses?
WMS:
Well, Uncle Odie...um....Yes, and no, you know? And when Uncle Odie had his
horses, he would race them in different things. And you know--and he had some winners, Jerrywood was one of his winners and things. And I need to try to ask my sister if she could send me those pictures--JM:
I would really like to see them.
WMS:
--of that, you know. But that's--that's my family. Yeah, they had horses. And
another one was named Susie Q. He named it after Big Auntie.JM:
Aw, I love that.
WMS:
Yes, Susie Q. Yeah, yeah. And he would sometimes take it--he had one trailer
thing for the horse and he had a truck. They would go up to Northern Kentucky, whatever that racetrack is up there.JM:
Ellis Park.
WMS:
You know, and they would go there and--and he would race his horse, bring it
back home. You know. 17:00JM:
Now where were the horses stabled when he was in Louisville?
WMS:
When he was in Louisville, he would keep them stabled on the backside of the
Downs. But then, when he--when the meet was over...there was someplace in Indiana that he would take them. I'm not sure where that was. But I knew that he would take the horses over in Indiana.JM:
Was that his livelihood? Or something he did on the side?
WMS:
That was something that he did on the side. It was a way, you know--he owned
real estate. He bought horses.JM:
Wow.
WMS:
He knew how to make his money grow for itself, you know, and they just believed
in doing that.JM:
That's cool. That's really cool.
WMS:
Yeah, that's pretty cool. But the one thing that he never wanted for us,
especially the girls, he did not like for us to be on that Backside.JM:
Tell me what you mean.
WMS:
Because he didn't feel like that was an appropriate place for young girls to be.
He said there was all types of things that would go on the Backside that he did not want to introduce us to. You know, and he said there was drinking and 18:00cursing and, you know, just all different types of things. And he did not want us to be around any of that. You know, and stuff. Even though--it was one or two times that I happened to be in the truck with him, and he would have to stop at the Downs. And I would have to stay in the truck.JM:
Really?
WMS:
Absolutely. Absolutely.
JM:
Do you remember those times?
WMS:
Yes.
JM:
What did you think?
WMS:
Yes. Yes. Yes. I was like, "It's hot in here. I want to go out." I was
gonna--"You better stay in there!" You know, so I was like, "Okay." So by the time he got back in there, my hair had reverted. [both laugh] I'm tired. I'm hot, you know, and everything. And so yeah, yeah, yeah.JM:
Okay.
WMS:
And you know, and I was like, "I can't wait to get home." You know. And
everything. But he would make up to me by getting me a soft drink or an ice cream cone or something like that. Yeah,JM:
That's sweet.
WMS:
Yeah.
JM:
So what about when--so you were there. You were in Highland Park till you were
in sixth grade. I'd like to hear--I'm trying to-- 19:00WMS:
But understand that we would come back on the weekends, you know, and
everything. Even after that. And because we still had church, you know, and everybody--JM:
So you still came to Highland Baptist?
WMS:
Absolutely. You were very active and involved in the church. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
JM:
So where did Odie work?
WMS:
He worked at International Harvester.
JM:
Got you.
WMS:
IH.
JM:
Yeah. A lot of people worked there.
WMS:
Yeah, a lot of people worked there.
JM:
And what about--you said your mom and your aunts and your grant--
WMS:
Gram?
JM:
Gram. You said they did day jobs--
WMS:
Yeah.
JM:
--when the meet wasn't going.
WMS:
That's correct.
JM:
But when the meet was going, what did they do?
WMS:
They would--they would work at the track
JM:
Doing what?
WMS:
My mother in the restrooms. They had the ladies with the black uniforms and the
white collars on?JM:
Okay.
WMS:
Yeah, and so they would work in the restrooms making sure that the ladies' rooms
and everything were spic and span. And where my grandmother's restroom was is where Phyllis Knight would store her hats on Derby. My grandmother was on the 20:00clubhouse side. And she was--the Winner's Circle, you could go at her door and go through the main door--the main entryway over there, and you would see the Winner's Circle.JM:
Oh, wow.
WMS:
I mean, and that's what--while they would do the interviews--not the
trackside--but when they would--you know, you weren't--you wasn't too far from the paddock and --that's where Phyllis Knight and--what's his name?--Walton? would do their interviews at.JM:
Oh, okay, wow.
WMS:
You know and everything so when Phyllis Knight would need rest or whatever, she
would come in and rest in my grandmother's restroom, change her hats, and go back out.JM:
Wow.
WMS:
Yeah. And so my grandmother would keep all of her hats, you know, and everything
for her in her restroom there.JM:
How long do you think your grandmother did this job every year?
WMS:
Oh gosh. years.
21:00JM:
Really?
WMS:
Years. Oh, yeah.
JM:
What do you remember hearing from her about work?
WMS:
You know, because the tips were so good. You know, it was it was a good income.
JM:
Wow.
WMS:
It was a good income. You know, and there was jockeys' wives would come in my
grandmother's restroom, jockey's mothers. One was--it started with a shoe--that started with a--JM:
Shoemaker.
WMS:
Was it Shoemaker? Maybe it was Shoemaker, but--
JM:
He rode a couple Derby winners.
WMS:
But there was another one. And they would--I can see that lady's--Brumfield!
JM:
Uh-huh.
WMS:
Brumfield. Miss Brumfield was one of the jockey's--Brumfield's--mother. And she
would come in and she would ask me to pick a horse. "What horse do you like?" You know, and everything. And she would have a program. "Which horse do you like 22:00in this race?" "I don't know." You know, "Do you like that one?" "Uh-uh."JM:
[laughs]
WMS:
"Do you like that one?" I said, "Well, I like these colors." You would pick a
horse because of the color. You would pick a horse because of the name. You know, you would pick a horse for different reasons. I didn't know anything about any odds or anything like that. And you know, and if the horse won, you got money.JM:
That's right!
WMS:
You got money for picking the horse, you know, and stuff. So yeah, so it was--
JM:
So there were times when you would go to the track to see your grandmother?
WMS:
Oh, yeah. Oh, we would be there with her all day.
JM:
No way.
WMS:
All day.
JM:
Just posted up in the ladies' room?
WMS:
Just posted up. She would let us--we were allowed to go out of her bathroom, you
know, and look at the races. And we would go over and beyond the paddock and watch the races so I could watch the horses come out. Because I knew that when the horses came out, I might see Uncle Dinky walking a horse--and then you wanted to--you would wave, you know, try to sneak a wave in. But you knew that 23:00he was working that horse, you know, and everything. And it was amazing to me to see these people that I knew--I mean, I really knew these people--walking these big old horses, you know, and everything. And I remember seeing my uncle take a horse and just snatch it by its reins. And I was like, "Oh gosh! I never knew Uncle Dinky to be mean!" you know? And I was like, "Oh my goodness, he's really, you know,--he really knows what he's doing," you know, and that type of thing. But it was to get the horses' attention.JM:
Uh-huh.
WMS:
You know, and he would rattle that thing. And--and the horse was like, "Okay,
all right."JM:
He knew who was boss.
WMS:
Right.
JM:
Wow.
WMS:
Right. Exactly.
JM:
Okay, so Dinky was your actual uncle; Odie was your great-uncle.
WMS:
Yes.
JM:
Is that correct?
WMS:
That is correct.
JM:
So Dinky was your mom's...
WMS:
Brother.
JM:
Brother.
WMS:
Yes.
JM:
Gotcha.
WMS:
Yes.
24:00JM:
And he trained horses or was a hot walker groom?
WMS:
He was a hot walker, he was a groom, and then eventually, he moved up and he was
a foreman--JM:
Oh okay.
WMS:
--you know, of a stable. Yeah.
JM:
Who did he work for?
WMS:
Yeah. He worked for the Thorntons.
JM:
You said so, right.
WMS:
Yeah, he worked for them. I don't know who all--but I remembered them because
they really wanted him to come with, and you know, to relocate his family. And he wouldn't do that, you know, he wanted to stay close to home, he wanted to be in Highland Park. He wanted to be close, but--but they, you know, had horses in Lexington, in different places. He would have to fly with horses, and to many places--JM:
Yeah.
WMS:
--you know, and stuff. So when I would see that picture of Secretariat, and I
saw, you know, the man coming off with the horse.JM:
Mm-hm?
WMS:
That was my Uncle Dinky.
JM:
Wow.
WMS:
That was my Uncle Dinky.
JM:
That's really cool.
WMS:
I'm like, "Yeah, I get this."
JM:
So for you, for a little girl--it was like, that felt--there was some kind of
25:00special feeling and pride.WMS:
It was! Absolutely! I was so very proud of him.
JM:
Wow.
WMS:
You know, and to know that he did all of that, you know.
JM:
Did you ever see him on TV or anything?
WMS:
Oh, yes!
JM:
Wow.
WMS:
Oh, yeah. You know. And we would sit there especially Derby time and we would
look for all of the ones--"Look, there's so-and-so and so-and-so!" you know. "Oh, there's Uncle Dinky! Look!"JM:
Whoa!
WMS:
You know, and everything. Oh yeah.
JM:
Wow.
WMS:
We would look for them. And then to see them in person when we were able to go,
but we had to earn to be able to go.JM:
To go what, to the Derby?
WMS:
No, to the racetrack with Gram.
JM:
Oooh, tell me about that process!
WMS:
You know, we had to be, you know, mindful, we had to have good grades and that
type of thing. And, you know, and Gram would lay it out, "If you do this, this, this and this, then I'll ask your mother, and see if it's okay for you to come to the track with me on Saturday." 26:00JM:
No way.
WMS:
You know, so during the whole week you was making sure that you did all of your
homework, that you were in doing what you needed to do, you know, and everything.JM:
Oh my gosh.
WMS:
Whatever your responsibilities were in the home, you were making sure that all
those things were met, so that we can get a chance to--you know--later on, we didn't realize that some of those Saturdays, Mother was working; we had absolutely no clue with that, but then--JM:
[laughs] That you were going to end up at the track regardless of what you did.
WMS:
Right, exactly. [laughs] We had absolutely no clue.
JM:
What smart parenting!
WMS:
I'm telling you, you know! But when we went, we were always very well dressed,
our hair was immaculate, you know--it had to be, because we wanted to have an appearance.JM:
Sure.
WMS:
They taught us to look well about ourselves
JM:
For sure.
WMS:
You know, and everything. And, you know, mind your manners. You know, make sure
27:00you say "thank you. "Please." "Yes, ma'am."JM:
Absolutely.
WMS:
"Yes, sir." "No, ma'am." And it was nothing that was--it was taught to us of
respect. I feel bad for the kids today. Because somewhere down the road, we've gotten off-kilter with that. Because some kids don't want to--because it's like, a demeaning type of thing. No, that's respectful.JM:
Mm-hm. Mm-hm.
WMS:
That's respectful.
JM:
I think so too.
WMS:
I just have to make that demand even with my daughter. She says, "Yes, ma'am."
JM:
Yeah, I think that--
WMS:
Yeah.
JM:
I was never--I was never made to address my elders as ma'am and sir. But my
cousins were. And I heard that tune, you know, at their house. And I just kind of picked up on it, and I appreciate it. 28:00WMS:
And that's what happens.
JM:
And still to this day, you know...
WMS:
That's what happens.
JM:
It make sense to me.
WMS:
Right.
JM:
It's an extension of respect and dignity towards other people.
WMS:
Exactly.
JM:
It opens so many doors for you.
WMS:
Mm-hm.
JM:
So you were taught those things and how to present yourself. I wonder, in your
grandmother's era, how much she had to show up and be proper because this was her livelihood?WMS:
Sure.
JM:
Right?
WMS:
Sure. Sure. Sure.
JM:
I wonder if you could speak to the ways that you were aware of race relations in
Highland Park, for one, and also at Churchill Downs.WMS:
When I heard my mother--when I heard my grandmother said, "Yes, ma'am."
JM:
Mm-hm.
WMS:
And I thought, "But you're a ma'am."
JM:
Huh.
WMS:
And she was saying, "Yes, ma'am" to a Caucasian lady that was in her restroom--
JM:
Huh.
WMS:
--that was much younger than her. And I thought--because for me was about age.
29:00JM:
Uh-huh.
WMS:
For her was race.
JM:
Wow.
WMS:
Yeah.
JM:
That's a very complicated thought for a young girl to have.
WMS:
Yeah. And I thought--and I just kind of...And I'm really wanting.... It
would--it was troubling to me at one point, you know, but she'd go, "Shhh!" and I was like, "I know that I better shut up. But I want to know, why are you saying ma'am to her?"JM:
Oh you said that? You remember saying that?
WMS:
And you know, she would...you know, that type of thing. And it was hard for me
to try to understand and digest because I'm thinking that this manners stuff is about, you know, respect and age. But for her... [very quietly] Yeah.JM:
Wow.
WMS:
I can remember that.
JM:
Really?
WMS:
I can remember that.
JM:
Wow.
WMS:
I can remember that. And I thought-- [laughs] Because, I thought--I was the
youngest of the family. And I expressed myself, sometimes too much. And I 30:00thought, "But Gram, why are you saying yes ma'am to her?" You know?JM:
When did you get your answer?
WMS:
You know wand stuff. And she never really, you know--she said, "Well, it's my--"
The answer was, "It's my job. It's what I do." But it was much later--when I moved-- when we moved from Highland Park to the West End. And we had that encounter about race, because we were the second or third African American family to move in on our block. And it was just horrific, because my brother was chased home from school. Chased from the bus stop home from school, and we encountered different things like that. And we, you know, Highland Park, we just, we got along with everybody. 31:00JM:
Oh, wow.
WMS:
So it was very different. It was very different. I know that there was a part of
Highland Park that was primarily Caucasian. But we would still pass by the house going to school in the morning, and we were walking, and it was cool. The kids--the same kids were in my class, you know, and that type of thing. So it was a long time before figured out that "Oh! It's because I'm black! For real!" Yeah. [laughs] It was like, "Oh, okay."JM:
What?
WMS:
But's not okay.
JM:
No. So you're saying it was when you move to the West End, where you picked that up.
WMS:
Yeah. Where I really saw the difference. Where I really saw that--sometimes--I
will be honest--sometimes in the classrooms, I would see the teachers sometimes take more interest in the Caucasian kids and what they... 32:00JM:
Who is we when you say we?
WMS:
But! I also saw where that many of us--because of our upbringing, and because we
did our homework, and our parents sit down next to us, you know, and teach me how to write this and that kind of thing--that we were excelling at Lowell Elementary School. You know, we were doing very well.JM:
Yeah, yeah.
WMS:
African Americans, you know, from my community. And they saw that.
JM:
Yeah, yeah.
WMS:
They saw that in us, you know. And so then I saw a transition of the teachers
saying, you know, "You've got a bright kid here."JM:
Sure. Yeah.
WMS:
"You've got a real bright kid here." And you know, and different things. And
they would do the encouragement stuff--but when we got to the West End, when I got to Shawnee Elementary school, I was in for a rude awakening with that, and I 33:00was like, "Okay."JM:
Wow.
WMS:
Yeah.
JM:
That's very interesting to think about for me, because I've tried to put
together an understanding of Highland Park, based on just a few people I've talked to. One of them's a guy named Tom Owen. His mom--his family owned the Owen Five and Ten that was somewhere in Highland Park, I think on the main drag--WMS:
On Park Boulevard.
JM:
Uh-huh. And Tom is a--he's an older gentleman. Mm-hm. He remembers how Highland
Park being pretty seriously--segregated, definitely.WMS:
It was.
JM:
White folk and black folk.
WMS:
Yes, it was.
JM:
What do you remember--?
WMS:
But the school made it happen.
JM:
Uh huh. Okay, where was the school?
WMS:
The school was on Crittenden Drive and one of those Indian name streets.
JM:
Okay.
WMS:
Because you had a lot of Indian name streets out there.
JM:
Sure. Yeah. Hiawatha...
WMS:
No! No, it was Crittenden Drive and Phillips Lane.
34:00JM:
So the building's not--is the building there still?
WMS:
Oh, no, no, no.
JM:
Gone.
WMS:
no, no, no, been gone. Yeah.
JM:
Plummie remembers, you know, African American kids and Caucasian kids playing together--
WMS:
Yeah.
JM:
--like it was no big deal.
WMS:
Yeah.
JM:
So is that your recollection as well?
WMS:
Yeah. When the summer came, there was a swimming pool over there. You had the
gymnasium that was there not too far from the from the school.JM:
Okay.
WMS:
You know, everybody went to the pool. Everybody--you know and everything. It was
more of an economic divide.JM:
Huh. When you moved to the West End you mean?
WMS:
Well, you know, and for some of Highland Park because you had people that lived
in big houses, you know; you had the big house on the corner of Park Boulevard and something. I will never forget--it was this gray and white house--it was a beautiful house on the outside.JM:
In a minute we can look at these pictures of Highland Park. But I'm curious to
know about how...how this awakening happened when you move to West Louisville. 35:00Like what was different about West Louisville that wasn't present in Highland Park.WMS:
I didn't get the N-word until I came to West Louisville.
JM:
For the first time in your life?
WMS:
I mean, I had heard it. I knew that people used that language, you know. But for
a Caucasian to call me that? I didn't get that until then.JM:
Oh my God.
WMS:
Yeah. And it was alarming. And it was, you know--and it was an adult that said
it! But what I didn't know was that White Flight was happening. I didn't realize that because we had moved into the community to better ourselves, that we were one of the reasons that people were moving out.JM:
No, how would you know? It's just not what was going on where you came from.
WMS:
Right. It did not resonate.
JM:
That is wild.
WMS:
Yeah, it was. It was.
36:00JM:
That is wild.
WMS:
But I will say this about moving at that time, and where I came from--I was in
the sixth grade. At Lowell, I was a B/C student. I was doing my level best. I was working so hard to you know, to get--and I would bring the C's in. And I said, "Wanda, you gotta do better. Okay. Right." So at Lowell, those teachers really taught you. When I got to Shawnee, I made all A's.JM:
Really?
WMS:
Yes. And a lot of the books that we had at Shawnee, we had had them in the
fourth grade at Lowell.JM:
Oh, wow.
WMS:
And that was you know--and I was like, "Oh...okay."
JM:
Huh.
WMS:
Yeah, so my grades excelled. Immensely.
JM:
Yeah, yeah. Once you got--
WMS:
Immensely, yeah. Everybody thought that I was a smart kid. And I'm like, "Nah,
you just don't know. I was doing everything I could to get that B." 37:00JM:
Right.
WMS:
And that C. I was thankful for the C.
JM:
Huh. Interesting.
WMS:
But it was because you know...and yeah, when I got to Shawnee, I was making A's.
JM:
Wow. Wow, that's really--I've never heard any--I've never heard that.
WMS:
Yeah.
JM:
You're the first person I've spoken with that's had this sort of stark an
experience of moving from one neighborhood into another and having those types of awarenesses.WMS:
Yeah.
JM:
[showing pictures] So here's--
WMS:
Oh, yeah.
JM:
--pictures of Highland Park. These were taken by Pat McDonogh, and this is a
photo essay that was published in '91. Right when--WMS:
The airport was taking the property. Yeah, I remember that church.
JM:
Yeah?
WMS:
It's right by the expressway.
JM:
There's the expressway.
WMS:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
JM:
So is this Park Boulevard?
WMS:
Yep. That's the move. See, that's the move face. I recognize that.
38:00JM:
What does that mean to you? Like, what does that feel like?
WMS:
Because they're worrying about where are we going to go? What's gonna happen to
us? What are we going to do? It's Mr. Grady! That's Mr. Grady!JM:
Where did he live?
WMS:
Grady Hope! He lived on Park Boulevard. Yes. That's Mr. Grady. Mr. Grady used to
cut hair in the back. You know, there was another little...I don't know if it was a garage or something. But they had it as a room kind of place. You know, and everything. And Mr. Grady Hope. That was [name?]'s husband and Mr. Grady cut hair. And everybody had to get their hair cut. I can remember my brother going, "I don't want to go to Mr. Gray because he nicked my head the last time." There was a few of the old guys and--see in those days, you didn't worry about not having any money because you earned the money. You earned your money.JM:
How do you mean?
WMS:
What I mean. Mr. Grady, you know, had a job but he also did hair. Okay? Yeah.
And that was what we called a little hustle on the side. 39:00JM:
That's right.
WMS:
Right? Okay, so you had another guy, his name was Floyd. It was Miss Johnny Mae
Barnett's son. And Floyd would cut hair--that was his hustle. I mean, you did stuff.JM:
Right, right, right.
WMS:
You had to make that extra buck. You know, there was no type of AFDC or any of
those things. It was later on in my life that I remember those types of things coming in, you know, to be able to help and assist. But oh my goodness.JM:
So everybody had a little hustle, huh?
WMS:
Yeah.
JM:
To make a little extra money.
WMS:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
JM:
So where did Mr. Grady live in relationship to where your Gram or your mom and
stepdad lived?WMS:
Okay. Oh, now going this way and around the corner, that would be Wabaso. Just
the block over is Wabaso. And that's where we--look at the plane going over. 40:00That's just how close we were to the planes.JM:
That's an amazing photograph.
WMS:
Okay. He caught it.
JM:
He really did.
WMS:
I mean, he really truly....Does Mr. Grady look worried about that airplane? Uh-uh.
JM:
[laughs] No, no he doesn't, now that you say it.
WMS:
Because we were used to that, right?
JM:
Yeah.
WMS:
So when they came in and talking about, you know, "We want your property and
stuff." And see this was Aunt Katherine's house over here.JM:
Okay, okay.
WMS:
Um-hmm.
JM:
And what was her deal?
WMS:
She wasn't my aunt. Everybody just called her Aunt Katherine. [both laugh] Or
Miss Katherine, yeah. [Pauly?] Yeah. Yeah, that was--JM:
Incredible.
WMS:
Mm-hm. This is a drugstore. This is drugstore. Is that Ruby's? Oh, my.
JM:
I know. I know. Can you believe it? Pat McDonogh is no joke. I mean, he's a
fantastic photographer.WMS:
Yeah, he is.
41:00JM:
Yeah.
WMS:
Even the dog. Okay. Yeah, because the dogs sensed what was going through with....Yeah.
JM:
Here's a Highland Park Neighborhood Association.
WMS:
Mm-hm.
JM:
I've seen other pictures of that.
WMS:
Little too late.
JM:
There's a good shot. Look at that.
WMS:
Okay! Here we go!
JM:
That's a good shot, straight down--
WMS:
Park Boulevard! Yes, indeedy. Yes, indeed.
JM:
What is this place? Do you remember that?
WMS:
I never went in that building. It was a music shop.
JM:
Okay.
WMS:
It was a music shop. So you had Mohawk's. And then where this is, if I'm not
mistaken, across the street was Silverman's department store.JM:
Okay.
WMS:
Okay. That's where we went to see Santa.
JM:
Really?
WMS:
Oh, it was big time. Yeah. Silverman's department store. And Wesley Cox's mother
was the alterations lady at Silverman's.JM:
Who's Wesley Cox?
WMS:
Wesley Cox: University of Louisville basketball player.
42:00JM:
Oh, okay.
WMS:
Yeah.
JM:
Gotcha.
WMS:
Yeah. Byron Cox's mom.
JM:
Gotcha. Okay, so she's the older lady--
WMS:
Oh! They had the best fish in the world!
JM:
Really?
WMS:
Oh, man. That was, like, the veterans' thing and they would do it every weekend.
JM:
All throughout the year?
WMS:
Every weekend. And so you walked down--we called this down in the park.
JM:
Okay. That's okay.
WMS:
Okay. We walked down in the park.
JM:
Huh.
WMS:
Go get some fish.
JM:
Okay.
WMS:
Okay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
JM:
So like, on the weekends--not to sort of hammer this home or anything, but I'm
curious. Here's the main thoroughfare for--WMS:
Park Boulevard.
JM:
--Park Boulevard. Is this headed north? Or south?
WMS:
I don't know. But this is headed towards the community. See back over in
there--back down over the rise.JM:
Uh-huh.
WMS:
Over in here. Back, once you get past that, there was a bus loop. Okay? And
43:00that's where everybody would come to catch the bus at, and then back down there. Because across from where the bus turned around at was the Loves' house. And the Loves' house and the Porters' house started our neck of the woods of Highland Park.JM:
Okay.
WMS:
Yeah. Yeah.
JM:
Okay. So that was where the bus turned around. Is that where you--
WMS:
That was the divide.
JM:
Okay.
WMS:
That was the divide.
JM:
So when you all would come down into the park of a weekend to have fish, you're
kind of into where the Caucasian folk lived in the neighborhood.WMS:
But it was okay.
JM:
This is regular?
WMS:
It was okay. It was all right. Yeah.
JM:
So you'd go get some fish and it would just be a good crowd. Everybody's having
their fish.WMS:
Yeah.
JM:
Everybody's there for fish.
WMS:
We would never stay there. I would never stay in there to eat it.
JM:
Oh, really?
WMS:
Go and buy it. Bring it home. Okay? Because for us, dinner time was a family setting.
JM:
Right.
44:00WMS:
Okay. And you'd sit around and you ate dinner.
JM:
Yeah, yeah.
WMS:
That's when you find out what went on during the day.
JM:
Uh-huh.
WMS:
You know, it's a family supper.
JM:
Okay.
WMS:
Yeah, that's when you would find out what was going on during the day.
JM:
We only got a couple minutes left?
WMS:
We're good. We're good.
JM:
Tell me about--
WMS:
Oh, the barber shop down in the park! Okay.
JM:
Whose barbershop is that?
WMS:
So that --I don't know his name. I remember the barbershop. But it was the white
barber shop. And they couldn't do nothing with our hair. So we weren't gonna be there. We would go to Mr. Grady. [laughs] Or, you know, as people got older, Plummie and my brother and all of them, they would catch the bus and go downtown. They would come downtown to get a haircut.JM:
Okay.
WMS:
Yeah.
JM:
That's amazing to hear.
WMS:
Yes.
JM:
That's awesome.
WMS:
Listen, we're saying no. That was at the fairground, I bet. For one of the
community meetings--for one of the meetings. Yeah, "not for sale."JM:
Oh my god, it breaks my heart.
WMS:
Railroad tracks.
JM:
So let's say--
WMS:
The railroad tracks was the another divide.
JM:
45:00Okay.
WMS:
Because when you cross over the railroad tracks on this side, you were going
over towards the Beechmont area, which was, you know, our overpass. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.JM:
So Park is over here or over here? Over there. So--this is actually a question I
have, like when people went to work at the track... Mm-hmmWMS:
On the north side of y'all's neighborhood was the L&N yards. And there's all
kinds of--how would people get to Central Avenue from your neighborhood? Oh, you know, they would carpool.JM:
Uh-huh.
WMS:
They would carpool. There were people that would pay somebody to drop them off
over at the track. Or you know, and that type of thing. So that was not an issue. Transportation was not an issue. They would even walk.JM:
46:00So how would they get there, though, is what I mean. It's not--as the crow
flies, not very far away.WMS:
Right.
JM:
But was it? I mean, what--?
WMS:
Was it okay to walk it?
JM:
No, I'm not asking about if it was okay. I'm just saying--
WMS:
Which way, which direction they would go?
JM:
Yeah, because they might have--
WMS:
They would go down Park Boulevard.
JM:
Uh-huh
WMS:
Okay? And well, you could go to Park Boulevard and Nevada and go that way and go
over the overpass if you wanted to. Or you could go straight down Park Boulevard and go down--Park Boulevard became...is that Floyd?JM:
I think so.
WMS:
It became Floyd Street. When you got to Floyd Street, you was almost there.
JM:
What usually--
WMS:
Because Floyd Street was--there was a train yard that was there. Okay?
JM:
Right. Yeah. Uh-huh.
WMS:
You know, and everything. And so you just keep walking around there. Now, all
47:00along Floyd Street what you had was little places--you had...little lunch counter places.JM:
Whoa.
WMS:
You know, they would buy--you could buy bologna sandwich for a nickel.
JM:
Uh-huh.
WMS:
And, you know, you'd walk along Floyd Street--because they were also across from
the train yard there at Floyd. And so the people would get off, you know, that worked on the trains, they would go over to those places and eat, go over there and drink, whatever, you know, smoke, and stuff like that.JM:
So when you got to the train yard at Floyd and Central--what we think of now as Central--
WMS:
Right.
JM:
There's a big old hump that goes over by--
WMS:
Right, it wasn't that wide. Central was very small.
JM:
So there--
WMS:
And it was not the overpass, it was, you know, wait a minute.... No.... Central
was narrow, because during Derby, they would block off those streets and they would sell items out there.JM:
Wow.
WMS:
You know? Yeah. I mean the vendors were actually located on Central.
JM:
48:00Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Wow, that's cool. That's good to hear. More pics. It's a
sweet little neighborhood, you know? It's like, these houses are like those kind of houses in Germantown and stuff.WMS:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
JM:
It was a family neighborhood.
WMS:
Yeah. Schnitzelberg and stuff.
JM:
Schnitzelberg, exactly.
WMS:
And I tell you one of the, the most memorable times that I had at the Downs was
much later in my life. And my daughter was born and she was 8, and my sister was in town because she had relocated to Chicago. And I was working in the governor's office at that time in the Patton administration. And they always have tickets, you know, different things. And so they came around and said, 49:00"Anybody want tickets to the track race?" And I said, "Yeah, I'll take some." They said, "Well, we'll just go ahead and give you a box." And I said, "Cool. I'm good with that."JM:
Sure. Yeah.
WMS:
I took my mom.
JM:
Oh, wow.
WMS:
She had the time of her life. So it was me and my sister and my mother and my
daughter. And my daughter had taken a friend, you know, and everything. And we had a ball. We had lunch, and we went to the track. Then the girls--my sister had given the girls... I said, "Beth, you know, this is wrong for us to teach these kids how to gamble, and everything." But they picked horses and they won!JM:
No way.
WMS:
They won! And so when we got from there, we went out shopping for Mother's Day.
They took their winnings and bought Mother's Day gifts. And then we went to dinner.JM:
That sounds amazing.
WMS:
That's the cream of the crop.
JM:
Yeah, it is. Sounds like a good day.
WMS:
That was just a great day. Great day. Great day.
JM:
Oh man.
WMS:
Yeah. And we still, you know, we could see--because Uncle Dinky was still living.
JM:
Oh okay.
WMS:
50:00And he had walked a couple of horses and you know, and everything. And Mama said
"Go down there and see what Dinky was saying." I said, "You go down there and see what Uncle Dinky was saying! I'm not gonna do that!"JM:
Oh man.
WMS:
So good times.
JM:
Oh man, that sounds amazing.
WMS:
Good times. Absolutely.
JM:
When was that?
WMS:
It was...Um, oh, gosh, let's see.
JM:
That was the Patton Administration, you said.
WMS:
Yeah, yeah.
JM:
Gosh, that's been...
WMS:
So that's how many years ago was that? So yeah. Because I worked in the
Lieutenant Governor's office--Steve Henry's office.JM:
Oh, okay.
WMS:
You know, so that's yeah.
JM:
That's a while back. Man oh man.
WMS:
It's been a while back.
JM:
I don't want to keep you--
WMS:
All right!
JM:
I could talk to you for forever.
WMS:
Alrighty, I've got to get out of here. But thank you for the opportunity.
JM:
Golly, it was great to talk to you. It was so great to hear from you, thank you
so much.WMS:
I appreciate this so much, but I just really want--it's not about me, but it is
about Highland Park.JM:
51:00Sure. And the individual experiences in the neighborhood, say what happened in
the neighborhood.WMS:
But it was definitely community. I know when Plummie and the family was going
through, I think I shared that with you on the phone. You know, and everything. It was community.JM:
I'm not sure you did? When they were at--when he was going through what?
WMS:
Well, you know, his mom died when he was young.
JM:
He was pretty young.
WMS:
He was very young. And so you know, you didn't want social services or anything
to come through and split up that family.JM:
Okay.
WMS:
So Plummie and his sister Sharon, they lived with Uncle Jack and Aunt Lou. And
52:00Ernestine--Ernestine, what's the name? Started with an L. And I think Toby lived with Miss Katherine next to Mr. Grady. So they were not splitting up that family.JM:
The neighbors just took in the kids?
WMS:
There was a connection, but they was not letting--I don't think that Aunt Lou
and--I don't think that there was any blood relation there.JM:
Wow.
WMS:
But they....Uncle Jack and ?
JM:
Like I told you in Plummie's chapter. It's just like, very real and very
vulnerable in parts, and he said the same thing. Like, "When my mom died, it was a big deal, obviously."WMS:
Yeah.
JM:
And the neighborhood took care of him.
WMS:
Yes!
JM:
That's what--he used the same example to describe the community.
WMS:
Yes! Absolutely. Yes!
JM:
It just sounds like a beautiful--
WMS:
They just--they wasn't gonna have it. It wasn't happening. You know, and they
made sure that the kids were well taken care of. But they had a network, the older women had a network of knowing who needed what and when. 53:00JM:
Describe that network, will you?
WMS:
You know, what I mean, is that they didn't say it out. They just kind of
hung...you know, "So-and-so and so-and-so needs money for..." Just walking down the--by the time they got to the end of the corner, it was done. It was done. So, whatever the need was, it was done.JM:
You know, you describe these very strong women in this neighborhood. Who were
connected and observant and cared a lot. Like...was it a community in which the women were kind of running the show? Where were the...?WMS:
Yes! The men were there.
JM:
Where did the men figure into it?
WMS:
54:00Yeah, because what the women would do is come back home and say, "Hey, I need
such and such and such," you know, "I need $20." "What do you need it for?" "Well I need 20--" "Okay." [both laugh] "You know we got kids that we got to help out, we got a family in need." "You know, I don't want to hear that from you. Just give me the money." "Okay, my wallet's in there on the dresser. Look in my pocket. Reach around there. Reach around there and get something something."JM:
Mm-hm. Okay.
WMS:
Yeah. No, they were there.
JM:
That sounds amazing.
WMS:
Yeah. You know, Uncle Odie and Big Auntie, they didn't have any--well, Uncle
Odie had an older son. But Big Auntie they didn't have any children together, you know, and stuff. So that's why we didn't have to go without anything. You know, and if there was a need, the community made sure that the need was met.JM:
That's the way it's supposed to be, right?
WMS:
Absolutely. Because we are our brother's keepers.
JM:
That's right. We are.
WMS:
But they made sure that it was met. Okay?
JM:
Incredible.
55:00WMS:
There is no...Yeah, but the men were there. You know, they were there. They
worked. They worked two, three jobs. I mean, they *worked* they worked.JM:
So was it Odie that hung out or hung around with Tommy Long?
WMS:
No, my Uncle Ed. They grew up together in Highland Park. My Uncle Ed left with
the military. He lied the first time; I think he went into the Navy or something like that when he was 14. And they found out his age. So they sent him back and then he went into the Army and he made the Army his career.JM:
Okay.
WMS:
And he ended up living in Texas, you know, and ended up in a little town called
Mineral Wells, Texas, which is not very far from Fort Worth. And they grew up together.JM:
So you remember Tommy from when you were a kid?
WMS:
Yes. Because that was Miss Leona Crawford's husband.
JM:
Mm-hm.
56:00WMS:
Okay, Miss Leona taught us Red Circle at the church.
JM:
What's that?
WMS:
Red Circle was an organization, a Christian organization, for young ladies, for
little girls.JM:
Oh!
WMS:
To be able to learn about Christ and develop them as Christian young ladies, but
we had to learn the books of the Bible there you know, and all that. Yeah. So Miss Leona did Red Circle. Yeah.JM:
Did you know that Tommy Long--like, was he from Highland Park or was he from Newburg?
WMS:
You know, he was always a grown man.
JM:
Yeah.
WMS:
You know and everything because Miss Leona lived in Newburg.
JM:
Okay. They had some property out there.
WMS:
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
JM:
He was raising hogs and stuff out there.
WMS:
Yes. Yes, yes.
JM:
Which I think is incredible because my friend Paul Goffner, who works over at
the old school now--Goffner's on the cover of the book. He grew up in Newburg and he remembers Tommy out in Newburg when he was a kid.WMS:
Tommy was everywhere.
JM:
He was everywhere, sounds like.
57:00WMS:
Tommy was everywhere. But understand that Newburg was the oldest African
American settlement in the state of Kentucky.JM:
Uh-huh. Okay.
WMS:
Yeah.
JM:
State of Kentucky. I didn't know that.
WMS:
Yeah.
JM:
Wow.
WMS:
Yeah. I think it's the state. I'm pretty sure it was the state.
JM:
Wow. Yeah. We have a little bit about Newburg in the dirt bowl book. But--as
does Highland Park, Newburg warrants its own book.WMS:
Absolutely
JM:
It could be done.
WMS:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
JM:
I won't keep you long. I'm so excited to talk to you.
WMS:
Okay. Awesome.
JM:
And what I'll do--
WMS:
I'll be looking at I'll send and ask Beth o at least scan them for me--
JM:
Oh yeah.
WMS:
--and send me something so that you can be able to have those horse pictures.
JM:
I would love to see any pictures that you have.
WMS:
I'll scan Skip's picture that I have--
JM:
Oh, that'd be great.
WMS:
--and send that as well.
JM:
So what I'll do is take our interview and sort of iron it out.
