Interview with Sarah Wolkow, December 14, 1978

KC:This is Ken Chumbly of the University of Louisville Oral History Center. The date is December the 14th, 1978 and as part of our Jewish oral history project, I'm interviewing today. Mrs Leah Woldow here at her place of residence at 1155 Eastern Parkway. Mrs. Wolkow if you will, just tell me where you were born and when you were born and something about your parents. Okay?

LW:Well. I'll do my best.

KC:Okay.

LW:I was born in New York City.

KC:New York City?

LW:And I came to Louisville. I was married in 1913. That's about how many years ago, 60?

KC:Well, 65 years ago.

LW:I guess so.

KC:65 years ago.

LW:1913 I was married. Then what else do you want to know?

KC:What do you remember about your parents? What was your maiden name or what is your maiden name?

LW:Oh, [inaudible 00:01:16] Oh, my mother's maiden name was Tick, T-I-C-K.

KC:T-I-C-K? Is that a German name?

LW:No, I think it's a Russian name.

KC:Russian. So, did they come from Russia?

LW:I guess they did. I didn't know. They're my husband's people.

KC:Oh, I see. What about your parents? My parents came from Poland. What was their name?

LW:My parents, what was my maiden name? Oh, I think I told you this.

KC:Tic, T-I-C?

LW:Yes, that's my father's name.

KC:That's your father's name? I see.

LW:My mother's name is Miller.

KC:Miller? [Crosstalk 00:02:05] the German one. Where did they come from in Poland? Do you recall?

LW:No.

KC:You don't? And so, you lived in New York City? Or where you were born-

LW:I was born there.

KC:And lived in New York City. What part of New York City?

LW:Where did I live? On 112th street.

KC:Do you have any vivid recollections or memories of New York City?

LW:No I was seeing my grandmother there while I went to school, high school.

KC:Did you attend the public schools?

LW:Yes.

KC:Did you go to Hebrew grammar school or anything like that?

LW:No.

KC:Day school?

LW:No.

KC:What was the Jewish community like as you recall?

LW:[inaudible 00:02:58] a small community. They had a temple and a synagogue. And that's all I remember about them. It's been years ago.

KC:Yes. Was it a closely-knit group of people?

LW:Yes, yes.

KC:Did everyone live together or live in the same area?

LW:Area. Mm-hmm (affirmative) Yes.

KC:What did you do after you graduated from high school in New York City?

LW:I got married.

KC:That was in 1913 you said?

LW:Yes. 1913 I was 18 years old.

KC:18 years old?

LW:Yes.

KC:And you're 87 today-

LW:Yes.

KC:Or you're 87 now?

Speaker 3:Mrs. Pullman call 320. Mrs. Pullman call 320.

KC:How did you meet your husband?

LW:I met him at a dinner at a friend's home.

KC:That was in Louisville?

LW:No.

KC:No? In New York City?

LW:In New York City.

KC:Was he living in New York City?

LW:No, he visited there, and he was at his friend's home for dinner. And I was there.

KC:What was he doing at the time? What kind of business was he engaged in?

LW:Well, same thing we made hair combs-

KC:Hair combs?

LW:For the colored. Mm-hmm (affirmative)

KC:What was the name of his company? Was it, I Wilco, Walco and-

LW:F Walco.

KC:F Walco?

LW:Yeah, it was in my mother-in-law's name.

KC:Oh I see.

LW:F Walco and Sons.

KC:And he was an owner you said.

LW:Yes-

KC:You told me-

LW:Name was Sons, and he was a son.

KC:Oh, I see. What part did he play in the business? Did he sell or?

LW:He did everything. He went out and there'd be customers. He did everything.

KC:You met him then in New York City at a friend's house? Did he court you from afar? Did he return to Louisville or did he stay in New York City for a while?

LW:Well, he was there on some business in New York City. So, he stayed a while.

KC:I see. Mm-hmm (affirmative) Did you then return to Louisville with him?

LW:Not immediately.

KC:Not immediately? What were you doing in New York City? Were you working at the time?

LW:Did I work in New York City? Yes, I was in a real estate office.

KC:Were you in sales or what work were you doing there?

Speaker 3:Mrs. Pullman call 220. Mrs. Pullman please call 220.

LW:Typing.

KC:Typing?

LW:Secretary. I was a secretary.

KC:And so, you later went to Louisville with her husband?

LW:Mm-hmm (affirmative).

KC:Or with your-

LW:I think he came to New York and we were married and then I came back here with him.

Speaker 3:Mrs. Eclaine call 208. Mrs. Eclaine call 208.

KC:Where did you all live or where did you live once you were married and ... Once you were married and returned to Louisville and were living in Louisville, where did you live? Did you live downtown?

LW:[inaudible 00:06:28] So many years ago. 60, 70 years ago, isn't it?

KC:Do you remember anything about the early Jewish community?

LW:Well, it was a very nice community. And it was divided between the temple people in the synagogue people, the Reformed and Orthodox.

KC:How do you mean divided?

LW:Well, they didn't attend the same temples. They didn't pray the same. They never do, so.

KC:Was the division friendly or?

LW:Oh Yes. Oh yes. The Jews are very friendly, all of them in the community.

KC:So, it wasn't as if there were two very distinct communities and there was hostility or-

LW:No, no, no, no.

KC:Nothing like that?

LW:Nothing like that, No. We were small. We were two people and wouldn't have been possible.

KC:You say the community was small, do you mean just-

LW:Yes, the Jewish community.

KC:Yeah. There were just very few families?

LW:Yes.

KC:This was during I guess the 1915 to 1920 thereabouts it was?

LW:I was married in 1913 many years ago, and a lot of folks were business people 8:00here. And leaves an importance. And we manufactured these straightening combs for the colored.

KC:That was a good business?

LW:Well, when my husband opened the foundry. Oh yes, it was a good business. He opened the foundry and made the combs.

KC:Where was the plant, or the foundry located?

LW:I forgot the names of the streets and all.

KC:It was downtown?

LW:Oh, yes.

KC:Around the Hay Market perhaps?

LW:No, no. It was in the business section.

KC:Did he have many people working for him?

LW:Yes I think he did. See, his father owned the business.

Speaker 3:Mrs. Jackie call 220. Mrs. Jackie please call 2-

KC:So he stepped right in after I guess he was graduated from high school or did he attend high school?

LW:Oh yes. He went to college.

KC:Did he attend male high school or-

LW:He went to college in Chicago.

KC:In Chicago?

LW:University of Chicago.

KC:University of Chicago. What did he receive his degree in?

LW:Just a general degree.

KC:liberal arts or something?

LW:Yes, well I don't remember.

KC:Did he always want to be a business man?

LW:[crosstalk 00:09:51] he's been dead 15 years.

KC:15 years?

LW:It's hard for me to remember.

KC:It's a long time. Tell me a little more about the early Jewish community. 10:00You've said that there was the Reformed and then-

LW:the Orthodox.

KC:And then the Orthodox.

LW:The Orthodox and the Reformed and there was peace. There's no animosity there at all between any of them. We got along very well. A nice Jewish community, small, but nice.

KC:Did the two communities cooperate in any way?

LW:No. The temple people stayed to themselves, and the Orthodox people to themselves, but yes, they cooperated I guess when anything public was demanded [inaudible 00:10:56]. There was no real separation except in the way we worshiped.

KC:What group were you and your husband a part of? Were you a part of the-

LW:Temple.

KC:The temple group?

LW:Yes. See, the Orthodox-

KC:Orthodox group-

LW:the Orthodox group was ... My husband was raised in the Orthodox group, but when we were married I didn't understand them at all. So, we joined the temple group.

KC:Oh, so you, you left the Orthodox for the Reformed?

LW:I was never-

KC:Oh, oh, I'm sorry.

LW:My husband was the Orthodox and I wasn't at all.

KC:I see. And so you became an Orthodox?

LW:No.

KC:Or you became a part of the temple?

LW:Temple, that's right. It was a really long time.

KC:That must've been a quite a difficult step for you because isn't in the 12:00Orthodox religious service aren't the women and men separated and-

LW:Yes. Yes. They're separated, and they worship in Hebrew.

KC:Was all of that alien to you? Did you-

LW:It wasn't exactly alien. No, my grandparents were Orthodox and wasn't until my parents joined the temple that I came in the Reform group.

KC:Were there many members of the-

LW:Reform.

KC:Temple or the Reform? What-

LW:Reformed group, no. No, there weren't many.

KC:So the Orthodox where the majority of?

LW:Oh yes, yes, yes. They were the important Jewish of our section.

KC:Do you think it's true to say that oftentimes the Reformed Jews were the more wealthy Jews and the more-

LW:No, no.

KC:No?

LW:No.

KC:You don't think that's true?

LW:No. Some of the Reformed Jews were very wealthy.

KC:But it wasn't a matter of all of Reform Jews being-

LW:No, no, no, no, no.

KC:Wealthy?

LW:No, no. It was just a matter of worship.

KC:Just a matter of worship.

LW:Same as your churches, your Baptists and the other group. There's a worship saying, "That's why we changed the names so fools, a Christian is a Christian. And a Jew is Jew." And I can't see. To me every human being is God's child, but 14:00I'm not a religious person. You wouldn't call me religious in any way.

KC:What do you mean you're not religious?

LW:I'm not Orthodox or exactly Reformed.

KC:You don't. In other words, you don't observe the-

LW:I observed the yeah, Reformed when I go on holidays. And I hadn't been to synagogue for a year or more. I just don't go out anymore.

KC:Does a Rabbi visit here?

LW:Yes, he visits me, not often. I think in the year I've been here, I only saw him once.

KC:So, by you're saying you're not a religious person, you mean that-

LW:I don't attend.

KC:You don't attend?

LW:I don't attend.

KC:Yet you're a believer?

LW:Oh yes, I'm Jewish. Definitely.

KC:There is a Yiddish writer and poet. He's a novelist really, named Singer. You probably have heard the name Isaac Singer.

LW:Yes, yes.

KC:And I was reading an article by about Mr. Singer in the New York Times magazine. And in that article, he says that Jews who are assimilated, that is Jews who become a part of American culture and who don't follow-

LW:We're Reformed.

KC:Well I guess he, speaking of Reformed Jews.

LW:Reformed or Orthodox. Yes.

KC:Are Jews who don't want to remember their roots. Do you think that's true?

LW:Oh, No. No. No. We're Reformed Jew who knows his roots all right. No, no, that's not a similar thing.

KC:So, you have a sense of ... phone's ringing.

LW:I hear it.

KC:You know your roots, you say, and you have your identity as a Jew?

LW:Oh yes. Yes. My father and mother both were Jewish.

KC:Just to ask for your reflections on something now. Do you think that young Jews today are Jews who don't know their roots, who have been assimilated or become a part of American culture so much that they've-

LW:They've forgot they're Jewish?

KC:Correct.

LW:No, I don't think so. No. I would think in general completely away from their faith, no. Well, I guess some do, like any other religion. I can't answer for all.

KC:How important is remembering one's roots to you?

LW:To me personally?

KC:Mm-hmm (affirmative).

LW:Well you know your heritage. You know why you do things. And you can always refer to your parents, your grandparents, so on.

Speaker 3:Mrs. Martin call the receptionist.

KC:What was the depression like for you and for your husband and his business? We're talking now about the 1930s.

LW:The depression? It was pretty bad.

Speaker 3:Eileen to [inaudible 00:17:51].

LW:It was bad. But for some reason or another, they always wanted to straighten their hair. So, we didn't suffer too badly.

KC:What about the people around you?

LW:Some weren't and some were, and some were like everybody else.

KC:Did the Jewish community in Louisville feel the effects of the depression as much as the general population? Were-

LW:Oh, I guess so. I guess so. The only difference is of faith. But, your business and your conduct and your associations were all the same.

KC:So, how did the depression affect you?

LW:The depression, it didn't. It didn't. I was sorry for the people who were 19:00suffering. And I think maybe our challenging, was as little as possible. We tried to share. Is that my phone ringing?

KC:No, it's the outside phone at the desk.

LW:Oh.

KC:What about, just moving up a little in history, the period around World War II, both before and after? What do you remember about that time? Did Jews in Louisville or in this country know that there was a Holocaust? Did-

LW:Oh, we suffered the same as everybody else.

Speaker 3:Nathan call 205. Nathan call 205.

LW:[crosstalk 00:19:46] There was no difference. Outside of one's faith you're no different from anybody else.

KC:I guess what I'm asking is did you know? Did your family? Did Louisville Jews 20:00know? Did U.S. Jews know that Hitler was doing what Hitler was doing to the Jews?

LW:What do you mean?

KC:This is both before and during World War II.

LW:Well of course.

KC:Did you read it in the newspapers or just hear from people who were immigrating?

LW:That's right. Oh, sure. It was bad. But you know I don't know why the good Lord picked the Jews given their faith and all. And why it is that there should be any difference between a Jew and anybody else as a person. You worship 21:00differently that's all. Oh, there's a person who's the same as anybody else, I think. You go to school with them and college with them and I really don't see any difference except for the faith. And that doesn't divide us. Doesn't divide me from my friends or anything like that.

KC:Would you consider yourself a Zionist, would you?

LW:Yes. I believe that you ought to have a home. Oh, yes.

KC:And by home you mean our particular place?

LW:I'm a Zionist. And that particular place, Israel.

KC:Were you involved in any kind of Zionist groups locally?

LW:Yes. I guess I was considered one of them. Meaning that I was with them and their group. I didn't go to meetings if that's what you mean? No, I didn't go to meetings.

KC:But you of course-

LW:I belonged to them, yes, yes. I was a member.

KC:Did you and your husband work in any-

LW:Particular group?

KC:Group or? I'm thinking about Save Bonds for Israel and some of-

LW:Oh yes. Oh yes. Oh yes. Oh, yes.

KC:Some of those activities.

LW:My husband was in all of those things.

KC:What were his feelings about Zionism and the creation of Israel?

LW:Well he was a Jew.

KC:So, he felt similarly?

LW:Sure.

Speaker 3:[crosstalk 00:22:49].

KC:When Israel was created in 1948 what was the feeling locally among Jews?

LW:I wouldn't know.

KC:How did you feel?

LW:Jewish my, what?

KC:When Israel was created, when the state of Israel was created?

LW:Well, I thought it should always have been.

KC:Was their great jubilation?

LW:I was always a Zionist if that's what you mean? Being a Zionist means you are always in favor, the Jewish calling. See, we feel the good Lord gave us that home.

KC:Are you keeping up with the news of the peace talks and of all that.

LW:Only when I read.

KC:What you read?

LW:Mm-hmm (affirmative).

KC:Do you think there'll be a peace treaty by December 17th?

LW:I don't know. I'm hoping.

KC:How has the Jewish community changed since 1913 when you first came to Louisville? In what way has it changed? You mentioned in the early part of the 20th century, 1913. In that period, there were two different groups of Jews. There were the conservative or there were the Orthodox and the Reform.

LW:There always will be.

KC:Do you think though that there's more cooperation?

LW:It's a case of a method of worship. That's what divides the Orthodox to me.

KC:How has the Jewish community changed? Has it changed any over the years?

LW:No, I don't think so.

KC:There are more persons involved in the Jewish community. There are greater numbers of people.

LW:Well, you're born a Jew if that's what you mean? And if your born a Jew you 25:00stay a Jew. They're not my fault in any way.

KC:Has the community gotten larger? I guess that's what I'm asking.

LW:No, I think it stayed about the same.

KC:About the same?

LW:Mm-hmm (affirmative). It's a small group.

KC:Do you have any other reflections or recollections that you'd like to put on the record as it were?

LW:Concerning what?

KC:Anything, life in general? What have you learned in 87 years of life? What's 26:00the most important lesson that you've learned?

LW:I couldn't say. There were so many things that you learn as you go along in life. I think you're very stupid if you don't. ... And you change your views as you go along. Sometimes you don't think like you did one time.

KC:Do you think you've gotten more conservative in your views?

LW:No. I think I'm very liberal.

KC:Very liberal?

LW:Mm-hmm (affirmative) [inaudible 00:26:42] Yes.

KC:A lot of people say that as one grows older, one's views become more conservative and when you're a young person you're idealistic and hopeful and -

LW:Well I think you're always that.

KC:You think so?

LW:Oh yeah.

KC:Are you still idealistic and hopeful?

LW:Well, I should say I'm hopeful for the whole world. Peace for the world, general and people. And I believe even general education, I'm very, very interested in that. I think that every human being should have a chance to learn.

KC:I noticed some books on your bed in your room there, you're keeping up with your reading?

LW:Well, who wouldn't. You do the best you can. You follow your own interests.

KC:What are your interests? Tell me a little about your interests.

LW:My interests?

KC:What is always interested you?

LW:What's always interesting is people.

KC:People?

LW:Yes. I was always interested in people. I learned from them. I'm learning 28:00every day. I think you can't remain static when things change. You're bound to change your views or ideas in some why or other. I don't think people stay exactly the same as they were. If they are I'm sorry for them. They're not living in today.

KC:Do you see Jews as clinging to their heritage now?

LW:Some do, some don't. It's the same as any other.

KC:So, you don't see a resurgence in interest in the Jewish heritage among Jews, for example-

LW:No, no, no, no, no.

KC:Or nor do you see any kind of waning in interest?

LW:No I don't.

KC:But a Jew must always know his heritage?

LW:I don't see how he can forget. ... As long as there's a Bible, there's certain ancient history to go by. I think the prophets are most interesting.

KC:I enjoy the Prophets too.

LW:You do too?

KC:Mm-hmm (affirmative). Do you think we need Prophets today?

LW:I think we have them, in a way.

KC:How do you mean?

LW:Well, there's certain teachers who teach what is of life and things like 30:00that. That's about what they did, the Prophets.

KC:I want to thank you for taking time to talk with me today.

LW:[inaudible 00:30:16] I'll take time to talk to anyone who wants to talk to me.

KC:Okay.

LW:Thank you for wanting to talk to me.

KC:Okay.